Magic, Enchantments, and Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo

[Shanna Marie]

She also had the ingredients and just enough residual magic (from Daniel's ring) to create a time portal that allowed her to reach back in time to the Enchanted Forest to get the poisoned apple to use to make apple turnovers to try to put Emma under the sleeping curse.

 

I think the way it was phrased when she was doing all that was that magical items retained their power, and a spell that started in the Enchanted Forest would continue to work. She just couldn't initiate new magic or do anything that required power to come from her. So no ripping more hearts, but she could use hearts that were already ripped to control people or kill them. She could make new potions with ingredients she already had, but if she ran out of ingredients, she was out of luck, and the magic needed for the potions had to come from some item or object rather than from her. That's why she had to resort to sacrificing Daniel's ring for the time travel portal spell. It was the last thing she had with any magic left in it. Chances are, there was still magic stuff in Gold's store, but I don't think he was in a sharing frame of mind.

[Curio]

Okay, I remember now that there were a few magical items here and there that could be used sporadically, but my original point was asking why she and Rumple didn't try harder to stock pile those things? And by stock pile, I mean like a huge Walmart full of magical supplies. Magic is clearly a crutch for Regina and she's scared without it, so shouldn't she have been more proactive and stocked an entire bomb-shelter worth of magical items so she wouldn't ever have to worry about running out? Or would that have taken too much time and she needed to destroy Snow like right now?

 

Maybe I should use this last month of hiatus to go back and re-watch the earlier seasons I've forgotten over time.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Magic is clearly a crutch for Regina and she's scared without it, so shouldn't she have been more proactive and stocked an entire bomb-shelter worth of magical items so she wouldn't ever have to worry about running out?

I don't think she thought she'd ever need it. She was going to a situation specifically created to her needs, where she'd be the only one with any power whatsoever and the only one who knew what was really going on. She didn't learn until she'd already cast the curse and they were waiting for the purple cloud to sweep over everything that there might be a problem with the baby being the Savior, and so she sent her knights to kill newborn Emma. By then, it was too late to stockpile things she could use in case Emma ever came to town and she had to fight her. She wouldn't have needed any more magical stuff than she already had if it hadn't been for Emma or if she hadn't felt the need to have someone in town who might love her without the curse. If she hadn't adopted Henry, she'd have been okay with what she had, just having the ability to control Graham and force him into her bed and enforce her rules.

 

Rumple did apparently stock a magical Wal Mart, since his shop seemed to have sucked up everything that might possibly be useful. He just didn't know about it until Emma got to town and he got his memory back. He'd also managed to get the magic potion smuggled over so he could bring magic to town and he'd have power again.

[Curio]

Rumple did apparently stock a magical Wal Mart, since his shop seemed to have sucked up everything that might possibly be useful.

 

True. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a closet with a "bigger on the inside" effect where it's loaded with magical goodies. 

 

 

[KingOfHearts]

Belle mentions putting the dagger in his vault around 3B/4A. (I forget.) Did she mean the one in EF, or was it transported over in the curse?

[Curio]

I don't think she thought she'd ever need it. She was going to a situation specifically created to her needs, where she'd be the only one with any power whatsoever and the only one who knew what was really going on.

 

So what's Regina's excuse to keep using magic in the present day? Is it still a power struggle thing? Honestly, I would find Regina much more interesting as a character if she lost her magic. Magic has done more harm than good in her life, and she's not innately born with it like Emma, so I really don't see any reason for her to keep practicing magic except that she likes the power and will feel like a lowly commoner without it. (I also wouldn't be surprised if she took offense to the idea of Emma keeping her magic because Emma was born with it while she couldn't keep hers because she had to learn it from Rumple/books. Would she feel threatened knowing Emma had more power than her?*) Taking Regina's magic away would finally force her to become more self-aware and willing to recognize that her magic gave her a huge advantage in life and provided her many things she didn't deserve. She used magic to kill dozens of people, Rumple and Cora used the allure of magic to manipulate her, she used magic to create the curse that made everyone miserable for nearly three decades, she used magic to give herself a huge mansion and a cushy job, the magic she used to grab the apple temporarily killed Henry, and she continues to use magic to go about things the easy way like transporting places and making memory potions out of the blue.

 

The show always beats the "magic comes with a price" drum, but then the writers become too afraid to take away magic from the people who don't deserve it to begin with. I'm actually surprised the show hasn't looked further into how everyone feels about magic and magical practitioners. There could be an interesting political debate between these different groups:

 

• Home Office conservatives who believe all magic should be destroyed so that everyone can live on an even playing field.
• Moderates who are okay with some magical practitioners, but only people who were born with the gift of magic and who use their magic for good. (Emma=good; Zelena=bad) If you break enough rules with your magic, that magic will be stripped from you and you lose your power.
• The complacent crowd, which is basically everyone on the show at this point. You use magic but you weren't born with it? Eh, whatever. Just don't kill me. You were born with magic? Eh, whatever. Just don't kill me.
• The progressive types who think it's unfair that only the top 1% of important people in Storybrooke get to use magic to their advantage, so everyone should be able to use magic.

 

I feel like the writers were dipping their toes into this water with the Home Office stuff, but then got freaked out because the storyline wasn't perceived well, and dropped the politics entirely. But I think it's an important debate—should Regina and Rumple keep their magic, especially because they weren't gifted with it at birth and they've committed countless evil acts while using it? Why hasn't there been a magical council developed yet that monitors and discusses each member's use of magic, and clearly Regina and Rumple have abused their powers, so let's take a vote on whether or not they should lose their magical privileges for good? Shouldn't there be a magical conference that Emma, Elsa, Rumple, Regina, Ursula, Zelena, etc. go to every year where they discuss what is acceptable uses of magic and what's crossing the line? Would this magical summit invite non-magical people to get their input on how their lives have been either destroyed or improved by magic?

 

*I just realized this same drama could really amp up the tension with Zelena, too.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

So what's Regina's excuse to keep using magic in the present day?

That's a good question, considering that most of 2A was spent with Regina acting like a magicoholic in MA, abstaining from magic to prove herself to Henry, with Henry acting like all magic was evil. It was a huge dilemma for her to use magic to save Henry from Zombie Daniel, since it was a betrayal of Henry's trust for her to use magic when she promised not to, and yet if she didn't Henry might be killed.

 

And then that went totally by the wayside somewhere along the way. I don't know if it was when Henry begged her to use her magic to stop the shield on the well to allow Emma and Snow to come back, and magic became okay then, or if it was when she used magic to stop the failsafe, but the idea that magic was part of what was making her evil and she had to stop using it in order to not turn into her mother was totally forgotten. I suspect it has something to do with whatever switch was flipped when they suddenly turned Regina into the Biggest Victim Ever and she became a massive Mary Sue. If Emma was going to have magic, then Regina had to have and use her magic. They couldn't have Emma being powerful with magic and Regina not having magic or not being allowed to use magic.

[Curio]

I don't know if it was when Henry begged her to use her magic to stop the shield on the well to allow Emma and Snow to come back, and magic became okay then, or if it was when she used magic to stop the failsafe, but the idea that magic was part of what was making her evil and she had to stop using it in order to not turn into her mother was totally forgotten. I suspect it has something to do with whatever switch was flipped when they suddenly turned Regina into the Biggest Victim Ever and she became a massive Mary Sue. If Emma was going to have magic, then Regina had to have and use her magic. They couldn't have Emma being powerful with magic and Regina not having magic or not being allowed to use magic.

 

I don't know if the writers know how to write an interesting Regina without including her magic. Emma made up that weird speech in 4x05 about how the "others" don't understand them because of their magical abilities, and that magic somehow made them "special." So, if Regina didn't use her magic anymore (which she wasn't born with anyways and lived a good two decades without), she wouldn't be considered special? That's a weird message to send. (It was a much different case for Emma when she was attempting to get rid of her magic because it was something she was genetically born with; it wasn't a hobby she picked up along the way.) Is magic and bitchyness Regina's only two qualities that make her interesting? Would she not be as interesting if she was just bitchy without the magic?

 

What's interesting to me is that most of the other magical characters can stand on their own as interesting and compelling people even if they don't have magic. Emma's character was established without any magic, and even in Season 1 we knew she was badass. Rumple is interesting as the pre-Dark One Rumple who was a "coward," and he was also interesting when he got kicked out of town and was forced to shack up with Ursula. (I wish that lasted longer.) Zelena was just as conniving in Camelot when she had the anti-magic band on. Even when Hook gained new Dark One magic, it didn't really give him character-enhancing points, and he's just as interesting (or even more so) without magic. I really don't know what Regina's personality would be like if she wasn't allowed to pull out a fireball or use magic to get rid of her sister whenever she wanted. 

[KAOS Agent]

Actually, I've thought that the show has given a distinction between those born with inherent magic (those able to use it without training) and those who gained it through practice and/or curses and focus on using it more and more because they are obsessed with the power it gives them. Rumpel, Regina and Cora were all shown to crave it because of the power they derive from it. When it's removed from them, they show signs of withdrawal and immediately start to connive ways to get it back. They are nothing without their power.

 

If you look at Emma, Zelena, Ingrid and Elsa, all have in some way been rejected because of their magic. They don't use it in a grand quest for power. Zelena's nuts and she needs her magic to be able to fight for the thing she wants, but she was initially into using it because it offered her acceptance and "love" from others. She wanted to belong and after her father's rejection, she realized that her magic was the way to open the door both with Rumpel and Glinda's Sisterhood of the Magical Cleavage. Ingrid was looking for that same sense of belonging. Emma could not care less about magic and I think realizes how much it has screwed over her life. Elsa hurt people unintentionally and hated it. 

 

Those who cultivated magic were seduced by its power and can't seem to live without it. They had love/acceptance in their lives. Rumpel had his son, Cora had Rumpel, Regina had her father, a young step-daughter who would love her and a soulmate she rejected. They seek power and control. Those who were born with it feel like it separates them, find themselves rejected and try to rid themselves of it or seek the company of others like them.

Edited February 16, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

Magic is an excuse to avoid taking the effort to write a compelling character story. It's used in the same vein as surprise family relatives. "We don't need to show the consequences of rape, it was magical!" or "We don't need to give Emma a legitimate reason to go dark. Let's force it on her with magic!" come to mind.

I never really understood how characters viewed magic as evil or good. Henry, like Shanna Marie mentioned, thought it was evil in S2. But then Emma gets it, and it's born out of True Love. Mary Margaret has always feared Emma's magic, but reluctantly let her pursue it until she boiled a baby bottle. 5A really complicated things, because it made light magic equatable to Dark One magic.

Edited February 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Actually, I've thought that the show has given a distinction between those born with inherent magic (those able to use it without training) and those who gained it through practice and/or curses and focus on using it more and more because they are obsessed with the power it gives them. Rumpel, Regina and Cora were all shown to crave it because of the power they derive from it. When it's removed from them, they show signs of withdrawal and immediately start to connive ways to get it back. They are nothing without their power.

 

They might acknowledge there's a distinction, but the show hasn't done anything compelling with the big rift between those who were born with magic (Emma, Zelena, Ingrid, and Elsa) and those who learned it to gain power (Regina, Rumple, Cora, Anastasia). That's why I mentioned the different political views the Storybrooke citizens might have and why it's strange to me that the writers have never wanted to explore those dynamics. Do people think it's fair that Regina and Rumple get to keep their magic, even though they primarily use dark magic and have abused their magical abilities for years? Were people initially scared of magic, but now that Emma has it, are they warming up to it? Are people okay with allowing people to use magic if they're born with it, but are against it if you have to learn it? Even though he wasn't born with magic, was Merlin okay to use his magic because he didn't ask for it and only used it for good? And why does it always seem like only the rich and powerful get to use magic if they weren't born with it? Can anyone randomly learn magic? What's stopping Grumpy from going to the library and learning magical spells? Isn't it a bit hypocritical of Regina to take away her sister's inherent magic when Regina doesn't even have to give up the learned magic she only uses for power? Does magic even come with a price anymore? Would it be better to completely get rid of magic altogether?

 

It seems to me that learned magic is a lot like politics—if you're a rich, important, and extremely powerful person, you get to use your magic any time you want without anyone trying to take it from you. If you abuse your magical powers, you might get a slap on the wrist, but you won't see any permanent jail time or have your magic taken away for longer than a few days.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

I've always been interested in ancients like Blue and how she views magic (without making her "shady").  But clearly, the writers couldn't care less.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

One of the biggest problems with this show is that they haven't even tried to develop a coherent magical system with any kind of rules or true cost. It's just jazz hands of power that can do anything, until it can't and requires a full ritual with specific ingredients. They repeat that magic always comes with a price, but that only seems to apply to the price tag on getting Rumple to use magic for you. Or possibly the fact that everyone expects Emma to solve all their problems. Otherwise, there seem to be no limits, not even exhaustion (except when the plot requires it, and suddenly Zelena is too weak to do another spell). They've established that non-magical people can get magical powers, but that's only a few people with no signs of who else could or couldn't. And then there are people with inherent magic, with no rhyme or reason of how that comes about. We don't know how people use or make magic -- are they able to draw upon magic in the environment? Convert some other energy in the environment to magic?

 

Just fixing this -- even at this point, since they don't seem to be afraid of retconning everything else -- would have a massive ripple effect on fixing a lot of other problems with this show. Right now, the magical people are way overpowered, with no cost and an unending supply of power, and so they have to come up with some ridiculous things to have them not be able to just resolve all their problems with a wave of a hand. I hate that they've given healing power to all the magic users because that means that even a regular fight has no consequences or real risk unless they come up with another weapon that causes unhealable wounds.

 

If Regina got her now seemingly unlimited power from inhaling a book, what's to say that Grumpy, David, Hook, and Snow couldn't grab that book and do the same thing? Why isn't Regina sharing her book? If she used up the power in the book, why isn't her power finite? If it's a special trait to be able to inhale power from a book, is the Mills family line unique? Why aren't there more people with magical powers?

 

This show would be so much more interesting if they'd really tied Regina's power to that book, where she had to take frequent hits, and each time she did, a page went blank. Now that she's supposedly good and using her power for good, there are only so many pages left in the book, and she's regretting all those fireballs she threw, all the power she used in the past for bad purposes that might keep her from being able to protect Henry in the future. Each time an opportunity for magic comes up, she has to weigh whether it's worth it. But she's hiding the source of her power from the others, so they don't know she has to ration it. Boom, Regina is a 1000 percent more interesting character.

[KingOfHearts]

Magic would be a hundred times more interesting if there was actually a cost to using it. One seems to be implied with "all magic comes with a price" and Zelena becoming briefly weakened after using the wand. But whether that's followed up on is completely arbitrary.

Anyone can learn magic without the assistance of objects... that's a little overpowered and vague. I'm fine with innately magical people, like Emma or Elsa, but Regina and Cora are not. They were taught as if there was a Dark Magic for Dummies book for sale.

[Curio]

Right now, the magical people are way overpowered, with no cost and an unending supply of power, and so they have to come up with some ridiculous things to have them not be able to just resolve all their problems with a wave of a hand.

 

Even something as simple as "you've already used [X amount of] spells today, if you use another it might knock you out" would really limit the magical people from being over-powered. They could organize magic and spells by the amount of energy it requires, and a simple formula can let the audience know approximately how many magic tricks someone like Emma, Rumple, or Regina can pull off in a single day.

 

• Making a small object disappear and reappear doesn't require much magical energy, so let's say that uses up 10 magic points.
• Poofing from one location to another requires more energy, so let's say that requires 30 magic points. (Add 10 magic points for every guest you happen to poof along with you.)
• Ripping someone's heart out uses a lot of magical energy, so that's 50 magic points. Crushing it also requires 50 magic points.
• Throwing magic out of your hands is extremely exhausting and requires 75 magic points just for using it. For every minute you use it, it drains you 10 magic points.
• Healing someone's wound is another huge one, worth 90 magic points.

 

In one 24-hour day, a magical person has enough energy to use 100 magic points until they collapse from exhaustion. So Emma or Regina would have to be more strategic and smart about how they use their magic and would put them on a more even playing field with the others who don't have magic. People like Hook or Charming could try to coax a villain into blasting them with magic to drain them and make them weaker. Emma would have to think twice about healing a wound if she knew she already used a teleportation spell that day. Regina couldn't just poof in and out of places all the time unless she wanted to faint after the fourth temper tantrum poofing. You wouldn't be able to rip out a heart and crush it in the same day because 50+50=100, so the magical villain could pull a heart out, but would have to wait 24 hours before crushing it, which would give the victim time to try and escape or fight back. Or they could try to crush it in the same day, but it would probably knock them out from using up so much energy.

 

And then there's enchanted objects where anyone can use them without draining magic, but even those objects should have a shelf life and wear off after a while.

 

Alas, we have jazz hands and infinite power.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Remember when Snow did magic in Rumple's cell?

 

Regarding the price of magic, seems to me the only person that has paid the piper on this one is Emma. When it comes to Emma, she should never help anyone, because that's the message I'm getting. Take the darkness as a sacrifice, has to kill her boyfriend.

[Shanna Marie]

Nice ideas on the concept of a point system to limit magic. But ...

You wouldn't be able to rip out a heart and crush it in the same day because 50+50=100, so the magical villain could pull a heart out, but would have to wait 24 hours before crushing it, which would give the victim time to try and escape or fight back. Or they could try to crush it in the same day, but it would probably knock them out from using up so much energy.

I didn't think that crushing a heart required magic. It's just a physical object to be destroyed. When Snow cast Curse 2, Regina had to rip out David's heart, but Snow was the one to crush it. That also fits with Regina being able to crush Graham's heart without magic. She used her magic to rip it out in the Enchanted Forest, but after that, controlling him with it and crushing it required no magic. The magic appeared to be already contained in the heart, perhaps via the ripping procedure.

 

At any rate, the stories are less interesting if the characters can just do magic all day without getting tired or running out of power or needing any special kind of preparation or object. There's no cost, no sacrifice, no limitation. It's not even like the Harry Potter world, where they had to have a wand to do much of anything, and they needed to learn specific spells. Regina had that spell book she showed Emma when trying to teach her, but then other than the big rituals like the curses or the time travel, it doesn't seem like there are any spells or specific procedures. They just wave their hands around.

[Curio]

I didn't think that crushing a heart required magic. It's just a physical object to be destroyed.

 

Yeah, my heart-crushing theory was just hypothetical. (I wish it required magic to crush a heart.)

 

Not creating a magical bible of spells and rules is what keeps this show from going from decent to great. Why become invested in a storyline if you know that the writers are just going to use a random spell we've never heard of before to save the day? 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

I wish it required magic to crush a heart.

On the other hand, that at least offers one way a non-magical person might be able to have power over someone, particularly one of those super-powered magical people. Regina said she put protection on her heart so that Zelena couldn't control her with it, but she did seem surprised that she wasn't dead soon after Zelena got her heart, so presumably she wasn't able to do anything to keep her heart from being crushed. So, if you've got someone like Cora who keeps her heart elsewhere to avoid having a conscience or any pesky emotional ties, a non-magical person could theoretically crush her heart and kill her, if they were able to get to said heart.

[Curio]

So, if you've got someone like Cora who keeps her heart elsewhere to avoid having a conscience or any pesky emotional ties, a non-magical person could theoretically crush her heart and kill her, if they were able to get to said heart.

 

It's kind of a scary thought knowing that literally anyone, magical or non-magical, could waltz into Regina's crypt, pull out any heart at random, and kill someone by crushing it. Why hasn't Regina returned those hearts, again?

[Rumsy4]

Why hasn't Regina returned those hearts, again?

 

 

Now, this should have been a big part of Operation Stupid in S4.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Magic would be a hundred times more interesting if there was actually a cost to using it. One seems to be implied with "all magic comes with a price" and Zelena becoming briefly weakened after using the wand. But whether that's followed up on is completely arbitrary.

 

There's only a price of magic when the writers want there to be. They screwed everything up big time when they had Henry fill the hole in Regina's heart. Henry was a benefit of her dark magic. You shouldn't be able to cancel the price of magic with something you only acquired because of said magic. There was no price for casting the Dark Curse. That's when I lost any interest in this show's pretend theory that all magic comes with a price. I mean, sure, Emma is often slammed hard with a price (she even paid a very high price for Regina's Dark Curse), but it's not like when Emma uses jazz hands, she's hit with instant magical karma either.

[KingOfHearts]

There was no price for casting the Dark Curse. That's when I lost any interest in this show's pretend theory that all magic comes with a price.

S1: Regina kills her father to cast the curse. She is left with a hole in her heart for 18 years. Memory breaks after 28 years.

S3: Snow casts curse, pays no price because of a loophole. No emptiness. Memory curse breaks after a week or two.

S5: Hook casts curse but bypasses sacrificing Emma by channeling Nimue. Memory curse negated after a week or two.

S7: Happy casts the curse by sacrificing his DVR. He feels empty until he discovers Netflix. Memory curse negated within a few hours because everyone started using journals. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

There's only a price of magic when the writers want there to be.

 

Exactly.  If there was a price every time Rumple or Regina or Zelena waved their hand, they would be off the show right now.  The price tends to be for non-villains like Cinderella.  

 

Look solely at the 5A finale.  What was the price of Regina summoning the twister to send Zelena away? Nothing. What was the price of Rumple channeling all that magic to himself?  Belle comes back to him.  And in an episode titled "The Price", what was the price of resurrecting Robin?  The price came back in the form of the Fury but then the Fury just left.  Huh?  

Edited February 17, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

what was the price of resurrecting Robin? The price came back in the form of the Fury but then the Fury just left.  Huh?

 

In my mental headcanon, the "Kumbaya" gang each lost 10 years of their lives to pay for Robin's. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

One of the bad things about their magic as crutch tendency is that it also ties into their tendency to take the least interesting approach.

 

Take the big showdown with Zelena in season 3. The resolution had nothing to do with the buildup and all the running around to figure out how to deal with Zelena, and it was essentially a repeat of the earlier confrontation with Zelena, in which both Emma and Regina got knocked on their asses. Nothing had changed, other than them knowing that they needed to get Zelena's pendant, and even if they'd known that in their earlier confrontation, they didn't get close enough to beating her to have had a chance to get it. The only real change was that Regina could suddenly shoot out white magic instead of dark magic, which had no setup, and it was just waving around jazz hands of power.

 

But think of all the things they could have done otherwise -- like maybe working to turn the flying monkeys against the person who'd transformed them, or using Regina as a distraction so that thief Robin could have sneaked up and stolen the pendant, or some other approach that drew upon the skills of all the members of their team in a way that Zelena acting alone with a reluctant Rumple couldn't beat. Or if they had to use magic, why not make it more interesting magic that's not just waving hands around, like all Belle's research coming up with a counter ritual, possibly finding the barn where she'd set up the time travel spell, and while she was at the hospital stealing the baby, they could have painted a magic trap on the ceiling that negated her powers, or maybe they could have fumigated the farmhouse with a sleeping potion. Or something other than Regina waving her hands around with nothing different from their first encounter.

 

Or there was the end of 4A, where they'd actually set up all kinds of things that could have led to a resolution. Belle could have put together what she learned from the mirror and what she saw of Rumple and figured out that he was lying to her. She could have found Emma's phone and the voice mail from Hook. Emma could have noticed and put together all those signs that something was wrong with Hook (considering they actually had scenes in which she noticed something was wrong, and there was the time he managed to signal her). Will could have recognized the signs of someone whose heart had been ripped out. Henry could have pointed out Hook's odd behavior during Shattered Sight. But instead they had a magical object fall into Belle's lap to solve it all, with a massive logical leap along the way. She wasn't even looking for that magical object to help her figure things out. It just fell off a shelf to tell her what she needed to know (offscreen).

[Curio]

The only real change was that Regina could suddenly shoot out white magic instead of dark magic, which had no setup, and it was just waving around jazz hands of power.

 

And we've never seen Regina use white magic ever again...

[KingOfHearts]

 

And we've never seen Regina use white magic ever again...

Yeah, you'd think that would be a good trump card. 

[YaddaYadda]

And we've never seen Regina use white magic ever again...

I hope we never see her do that again. Plus, I find there's a huge difference between where she was in season 3 and where she is right now in season 5, and the character has regressed. 

[Jul 68]

I decided to bring my query here from the episode thread.

I know I'm the one who's been complaining about how bloodless this show is, but they have gone to the opposite end of the spectrum.

Which brings me to my question (which is probably better asked in a different thread, but...) How do non-corporial beings bleed? Edited March 17, 2016 by Jul 68

[Curio]

How do non-corporial beings bleed?

 

Metaphorically?

[Shanna Marie]

How do non-corporial beings bleed?

It seems like the Underworld is a place where a soul is corporeal. That soul, if taken to the real world/living world, would probably become a ghost. Maybe. I don't know, and I get the feeling the writers haven't thought of that.

 

On another note, I've been reading a fantasy novel that's made me think about our complaints about the lack of any kind of real cost for doing magic, in spite of their "magic always comes with a price" mantra (which only seems to apply to asking someone to do magic for you. If you perform magic, you just wave your hands and can do anything). In the book, magic has a huge energy cost, so mages are always hungry, especially if they've been doing magic. You can generally tell someone's a mage if he's really skinny and eats like a glutton. They also need a lot of sleep when they've been doing magic. Part of the book is set at a university where magic is one of the disciplines studied (it's not a Hogwarts where everyone is a wizard. Magic is just another major), and all the magic students are the ones who tend to be late to morning classes because of sleeping in, eat every meal (and then some), and go to bed early, and they're also skinny in spite of eating your basic Michael Phelps training regimen diet. If they try to do too much magic without getting enough food or rest, they get really weak. I thought that was an interesting way of limiting their magical characters. They're in big trouble if they have to use a lot of magic and they skipped a meal earlier that day.

 

So of course I pictured Emma having lots of power because of all those grilled cheese sandwiches and onion rings, and Regina fizzling out because she only picked at a salad.

[CheshireCat]

Curio, on 16 Feb 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:Curio, on 16 Feb 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

 So, if Regina didn't use her magic anymore (which she wasn't born with anyways and lived a good two decades without),

 

Has that been stated by someone from the show in an interview or is that an assumption? Just asking because from what has been shown on the show I'd that she was born with it. The Wizard of Oz told Zelena that Regina, like her, has the gift of magic but was simply unable to develop it. And Rumple touches her in S2 and realizes how powerful she is. He also tells her that she could do so much if she just let herself. All of that has led me to conclude that magic is inside someone like a talent and needs to be developed/taught/nurtured like any talent needs to be developed/taught/nurtured. And all three, Emma, Zelena and Regina have used magic on instinct/emotion. Emma when she kept Cora from taking her heart, Zelena when she kept the tree from falling and Regina when she banished her mother to Wonderland. And all three were taught, I would assume, to reach their full potential.

Just my two cents/conclusion from what has happened on the show. Carry on.

Edited March 17, 2016 by CheshireCat

[Shanna Marie]

Just asking because from what has been shown on the show I'd that she was born with it.

She didn't have magic during the curse or in the outside world, and Emma was at least able to make things spark, even in the World Without Magic. Regina didn't have any power even after Rumple brought magic to Storybrooke until she inhaled that book. She may have potential and may have the natural talent to use magic, but she didn't seem to have any power of her own without that book.

[CheshireCat]

Shanna Marie, on 17 Mar 2016 - 4:47 PM, said:

She didn't have magic during the curse or in the outside world, and Emma was at least able to make things spark, even in the World Without Magic. Regina didn't have any power even after Rumple brought magic to Storybrooke until she inhaled that book. She may have potential and may have the natural talent to use magic, but she didn't seem to have any power of her own without that book.

 

Yes, she did have power and it was again brought on by emotion, when she made the wallpaper come to life and trapped Charming in it. She was also able to light the candle, she just couldn't make it stick. But the power was definitely there and I'd say the conversation between Rumple and her explained the rest - magic worked differently and she didn't have the patience to make it work hence she wanted the book. (I guess it can be best compared to drawing and painting - when you can do one you're likely able to do the other but you still have to get used to and adapt to the different techniques and Regina didn't have the patience to adapt to the new techniques so she chose the shortcut (as she said on the show))

[KAOS Agent]

I don't think you can have any definitive conversation about Regina's magic because the world building in this show is crap, but in that episode, Regina huffed the spell book to regain her magic and then she trapped David using the wallpaper. Her power was shown to be not that strong and the "drugs" in the book enhanced the little she had. Then they dropped the idea that magic works differently and Regina was fully magical again because they need their magical toys.  Magic users like Zelena, Cora, Ingrid, Pan, Elsa and Rumpel never had any trouble with magic in Storybrooke like Regina did. There was no learning curve for anyone despite magic working differently.

 

However, we can see how little thought they put into the magic rules outside of their little Regina is magicless plot because she also told Henry she could teach him magic during that time. This implies that anyone could learn magic. Then in Season 4 they discard the idea that Henry could learn magic with a conversation between Regina and him when Emma is off trying to rid herself of hers. Taking it even further to demonstrate their inconsistencies, Emma became the Dark One after knowing quite a bit about how to use magic but needed the voice in her head to teach her how to teleport while Hook, who had zero experience using magic, just instantly started doing things without help. This kind of thing is a shortcut to move Hook's story along, but it's really stupid to show Emma having to learn how to do things and not Hook.

Edited March 17, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Curio]

Just asking because from what has been shown on the show I'd that she was born with it. The Wizard of Oz told Zelena that Regina, like her, has the gift of magic but was simply unable to develop it. And Rumple touches her in S2 and realizes how powerful she is. He also tells her that she could do so much if she just let herself. All of that has led me to conclude that magic is inside someone like a talent and needs to be developed/taught/nurtured like any talent needs to be developed/taught/nurtured.

 

You're right about the quote:

 

"Like you, Regina has the gift of magic. But she has been unable to develop it." "Magic is a gift?" "Yes. And he’s trying to teach her that."

 

But the question remains—is Regina's magic something that was inherently inside her since birth like Emma, Zelena, and Ingrid, who were all shown accidentally using their magical gifts as children? Because we've never been shown Regina accidentally doing magic at a young age, she had to struggle to learn it from Rumple. Does Regina having the "gift" of magic just equate to someone who's intelligent enough to learn it from books and Rumple's teachings? Does it mean that she has a genetic code for it? The show's world-building and magical rules is so sloppy that both arguments can be made. 

 

However, we can see how little thought they put into the magic rules outside of their little Regina is magicless plot because she also told Henry she could teach him magic during that time. This implies that anyone could learn magic. Then in Season 4 they discard the idea that Henry could learn magic with a conversation between Regina and him when Emma is off trying to rid herself of hers.

 

And this just furthers the point about the sloppy magical world-building. Regina's exact words to Henry when she made the cupcake appear were, "And I can teach you. You can do this and so much more." Does Regina assume Henry might have magic inside him genetically because of Emma being the product of True Love? But at that point in the series, no one even knew Emma had magic yet. So was Regina implying that anyone could learn magic with enough practice? Is it the Bob Ross theory where anyone, no matter if they feel like they're gifted or not, can learn to do it?

 

I think I stand with Henry when he said, "It must be nice to have magic and be useful." This show doesn't really care much for people who don't have magic, and yes, you're quite useless if you don't have it. I'm more surprised that the show hasn't delved into the politics of having magic vs. not having magic. Why aren't more people clamoring to become magical? Why aren't normal people attempting to learn magic? Or if they can't, can the show just finally come out and retcon Season 2 and say that it can't be taught to people without the genetic trait?

 

I'm still upset they got rid of the Home Office plot because I thought it had a lot of potential. There should be tension between the people who have magic and the people who don't. It shouldn't be fair that all the positions of power in Storybrooke are held by magic-wielders. The mayor and landlord got their positions because of magic. The sheriff has magic. People with magic skip jail time while magicless people have to spend time behind bars. These are issues I doubt the writers care about at all.

[Camera One]

Because we've never been shown Regina accidentally doing magic at a young age, 

 

I think I just saw the bulbs light up in A&E&J's head over the southern horizon.

[Curio]

I think I just saw the bulbs light up in A&E&J's head over the southern horizon.

 

Sigh. Sorry, y'all. I just inadvertently forced a magical young Regina episode into the universe, didn't I? 

[Mari]

Sigh. Sorry, y'all. I just inadvertently forced a magical young Regina episode into the universe, didn't I? 

Yup.

 

Most likely one of the White family will have done something horrible to her--maybe Eva or Leopold nearly killed her first pony--and tiny magical Regina will save it.

 

Aren't we getting young Regina and young Zelena this subseason?  It'll probably happen then. I guess we can't blame you.  

[CheshireCat]

KAOS Agent, on 17 Mar 2016 - 6:05 PM, said: definitive conversation about Regina's magic because the world building in this show is crap, but in that episode, Regina huffed the spell book to regain her magic and then she trapped David using the wallpaper. Her power was shown to be not that strong and the "drugs" in the book enhanced the little she had. Then they dropped the idea that magic works differently and Regina was fully magical again because they need their magical toys.  Magic users like Zelena, Cora, Ingrid, Pan, Elsa and Rumpel never had any trouble with magic in Storybrooke like Regina did. There was no learning curve for anyone despite magic working differently.

 

The way I understood it was that the "written word" (as Rumple put it) would simply make her able to use magic since it was different in a world without magic. However that would have worked. (And David trapped by the wallpaper happened before the book and from what follows (her attempt to light the candle and seeking out the book), I'd say she uses magic without knowing how she does it. Hence my assumption that she has it inside of her).  

And no, they never have a definite conversation on the show about magic and it irks me because I'm still not sure where light and dark magic come from/what exactly that refers to.

I can buy that Rumple never had difficulties. He's the Dark One. And we don't really know if he had difficulties since it wasn't important to the story, so it might have happened off screen. Same for Zelena. Both Rumple and Zelena could have done something we never saw. Regina's struggle was important since it made her vulnerable, so we got to see that.

As for Elsa, Inrgid and Pan - maybe it can be explained away with their magic being different? Of course, we don't know what they had in mind for the show, however, if you look at Frozen then Elsa never had to learn magic itself, she only had to learn to control it. So, that sounds like Ice Magic is different anyway

 

 

Curio, on 18 Mar 2016 - 7:57 PM, said:

You're right about the quote:

 

"Like you, Regina has the gift of magic. But she has been unable to develop it." "Magic is a gift?" "Yes. And he’s trying to teach her that."

 

But the question remains—is Regina's magic something that was inherently inside her since birth like Emma, Zelena, and Ingrid, who were all shown accidentally using their magical gifts as children? Because we've never been shown Regina accidentally doing magic at a young age, she had to struggle to learn it from Rumple. Does Regina having the "gift" of magic just equate to someone who's intelligent enough to learn it from books and Rumple's teachings? Does it mean that she has a genetic code for it? The show's world-building and magical rules is so sloppy that both arguments can be made. 

 

A gift usually is something you have inside you from birth. You can't learn a gift, you are given a gift and either have it or not and if you have it you need to be enabled to develop it which, according to Oz, Regina was not.

 

As far as accidentially using magic, we may not have seen her use it accidentially as a child but she did push her mother through the mirror with magic. Now, the question remains why she was able to do it then and never before, but that could be explained with confidence. I don't think she could have done it without Rumple urging her to, but since he believed she could do it, I would assume it gave her the strength to do it.

Another argument for magic having been inside her since birth could be that she's said to have both light and dark magic and that magic itself, from what I understood, is neither good nor bad (I'm concluding that from evil isn't born). If she didn't have magic inside of her, would she be able to use light magic since I don't think Rumple had any interest to teach her light magic?

 

And I've long chosen to more or less ignore the conversation with Henry because it doesn't fit the rest of what has happened on the show. Or maybe, since it seems that everyone can use potions and curses, Henry could have learned magic that way?

 

But I definitely agree that the magic issue was addressed sloppily and there are a lot of questions.

Edited March 19, 2016 by CheshireCat

[Jul 68]

Or maybe, since it seems that everyone can use potions and curses, Henry could have learned magic that way?

I always assumed that this is what Regina was talking about in her conversation with Henry. The potion part, that is.

[Curio]

I think part of the reason why I've always secretly hoped Regina wasn't necessarily genetically born with magic and had to fight, scrap, and cheat her way to learning it later on in life with Rumple is because it knocks her Mary Sue score down a bit. If we're supposed to accept that she was naturally gifted with this gene that only 1% of the Mysthaven (Mist Haven? Does anyone even know the real spelling?) population has at birth, not only does she get to wear flashy, elaborate Evil Queen costumes, chew the scenery, warp characters and plot lines around her, True Love Kiss without a heart, and avoid having to apologize to the majority of her victims that she killed using magic, she is also "super special" because she's in the minority of genetically-gifted magical users.

 

It would be one thing if magic came with a price, but it doesn't...unless a plot calls for it. Most of the time, Regina and Emma can whip up magic any time they like without feeling any repercussions, so being born with magic seems like this writing trait that the writers gave them to separate them from the rest of the cast and make them feel more unique and powerful than the boring non-magic people. But at least with Emma, she's our show's Savior and main character, so it makes sense that she's slowly developed magic over the years and it doesn't come off quite so Mary Sue. But Regina has done so much evil using her magic where it becomes fishy that no magical court has tried to take away her abilities (which would also require this show to have a legal system*, so I guess I should just laugh and walk away from my keyboard right now), and whereas Emma could legitimately live a long and happy life even if her magic happened to disappear, I don't think the same thing is true with Regina, which makes it seem more like a writer's crutch.

 

It also doesn't help that we don't even know how magic originated, so it seems like winning the genetic (and writing team) lottery if a character happens to be magical at birth. Magic could be a genetic trait that can be passed down because of Cora passing her trait down to Zelena and Regina. But then you have the True Love magical gene where two non-magical people like Snow and David can pass along magic to Emma, so does that mean little Neal is also magical? Or are magical genes fickle where one sibling can have magic while the other doesn't? Is having a magical gene like the twin gene where it can skip a generation? (Watch out for those twins, Emma.) And then we have people like Merlin who didn't get his magic until he touched a magical object. Was Merlin always born with a magical gene and just didn't tap into his powers his entire life until he reached for the cup, and the other guy died because he wasn't born with a magical gene? Or did the holy grail give a non-magical person super powerful magic? We don't know, because TS;TW.

 

This is why we've always complained about the lack of magical rules or an energy system. I liked what Shanna Marie posted above about magical people always being hungry and draining their energy, because at least we know the magic is physically taxing on them and has a price. I also listed an energy point system a few pages ago the show could have easily applied to show us how magic has a price and that there are stakes in the story. Using my point system as an example, let's say Emma can only heal a person's wound once a day before her entire 24-hour magical energy bar is used up—whenever she finds Hook in the Underworld and sees his extremely painful and bloody situation, it would require all of her daily magical energy to heal his wounds. But what happens if Hades walks in on them? Suddenly, we have some magical stakes here because Emma just used up all of her magical energy for the day and can't easily poof them out of there, so she and Hook would have to fight Hades without any magic for a day. But with the way the magical rules (or lack thereof) are established on the show right now, Emma could swing down and find Hook, heal him with her magic, and poof them out without breaking a sweat or paying a price because the writers have suddenly gotten bored with the plot and want to move to the next shiny thing on the season's schedule.

 

*Taking my thoughts about the magical legal system to the morality thread.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

But with the way the magical rules (or lack thereof) are established on the show right now, Emma could swing down and find Hook, heal him with her magic, and poof them out without breaking a sweat or paying a price because the writers have suddenly gotten bored with the plot and want to move to the next shiny thing on the season's schedule.

That's why I have a hard time getting really concerned about Hook's current terrible condition. He'll be as good as new, down to his clothes and his mental health, with one wave of Emma's hand, and all the torture will be forgotten, with no consequences, no cost, and no real effort. That saps the drama out of what's going on now and makes rescue all too easy. There won't be any concern with Emma having to find a way to flee with a man who can barely walk without support and who's lost enough blood that he passes out from exertion. Just wave, heal, poof away, or possibly poof away, then heal. (That would be my solution to the dilemma posed above -- poof away with injured Hook, and then let Regina use her day's magic allotment to heal him.)

 

It seems like the writers have realized they've created a sticky situation in giving everyone total healing ability (remember when Regina couldn't heal Henry's minor burns and Rumple had to do it?), given that they had two situations in the last arc involving weapons whose wounds couldn't be easily healed. Percival enchanted his sword so that Regina wouldn't be able to heal wounds from it (even though the last time he would have known about Regina, she couldn't heal even a minor wound), and that was the only way there was any drama surrounding Robin's wounding. Then there was the "Excalibur wounds can't be healed/are always fatal" (whichever it was) thing to create the situation to kill Hook. Once they established that Rumple, Regina, and Emma could all heal just about anything with the wave of a hand, they made it nearly impossible to create a crisis when someone was wounded or to make us worry too much about someone being wounded without throwing in some other factor, like a magical sword.

[CheshireCat]

Curio, on 19 Mar 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:Curio, on 19 Mar 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

It would be one thing if magic came with a price, but it doesn't...unless a plot calls for it. Most of the time, Regina and Emma can whip up magic any time they like without feeling any repercussions, so being born with magic seems like this writing trait that the writers gave them to separate them from the rest of the cast and make them feel more unique and powerful than the boring non-magic people. But at least with Emma, she's our show's Savior and main character, so it makes sense that she's slowly developed magic over the years and it doesn't come off quite so Mary Sue. But Regina has done so much evil using her magic where it becomes fishy that no magical court has tried to take away her abilities (which would also require this show to have a legal system*, so I guess I should just laugh and walk away from my keyboard right now), and whereas Emma could legitimately live a long and happy life even if her magic happened to disappear, I don't think the same thing is true with Regina, which makes it seem more like a writer's crutch.

 

It also doesn't help that we don't even know how magic originated, so it seems like winning the genetic (and writing team) lottery if a character happens to be magical at birth. Magic could be a genetic trait that can be passed down because of Cora passing her trait down to Zelena and Regina. But then you have the True Love magical gene where two non-magical people like Snow and David can pass along magic to Emma, so does that mean little Neal is also magical? Or are magical genes fickle where one sibling can have magic while the other doesn't?

 

 

I remember an interview during which A&E were asked if we ever got to see Neal use magic and they answered if they got to S10 maybe but as of right now they don't think he's crawling yet. Of course, that was not a binding statement, however, it does suggest that they assume Neal has magic, too.

 

I've always assumed Emma's magic was different because of its origin. And if we take a look a at history then passing magic down via the women in the family would make sense as that is how most stories about witches have been told. It was usually the women in the family and if a parent (mother) knew magic the female children often were thought to be able to use magic, too.

Personally, I don't perceive Regina as a Mary Sue character. She's done plenty of evil and plenty of wrong. And I think for her magic could also be seen as a burden because that gift put her on Rumple's radar. It is what started it all and it gave her a power someone else wanted to abuse, so she was never taught to use it wisely and it turned her into the woman she didn't want to be. A gift is only as good as you make it and I don't think that having the gift alone doesn't make you "super special". It's what you do with it which does - Emma, for example, was the Savior before she could use magic. Regina is good and evil with magic. So, I'd say it's not magic which makes them who they are, it's what they do which makes them who they are. Just my opinion, of course.

As far as apologizing goes, there isn't a lot of that going around on that show anyway. But that is a whole other matter.

 

Back to magic - I read a comment elsewhere from someone a while ago and they speculated that Regina's magic was supposed to be light and Zelena's dark - a two sisters, Yin and Yang sort of thing. (It was said as a possible explanation as to where Regina's light magic actually came from) I found the thought interesting but haven't given it much thought up until today. I thought it could be an explanation for why Regina is the one who needs to reactivate her magic in new realms. Because the dominant magic inside of her is dark and it wasn't supposed to be, so it's not as natural as it should be.

(Or maybe it was Hades doing. Who knows)

But shouldn't a Savior have more trouble using magic in the Underworld than the Evil Queen? Or is Emma now better equipped to use magic in the Underworld because she's been the Dark One and Regina's trouble stem from the fact that she's done so much good now? It's really getting confusing.

 

Although the writers have been very inconsistent with that magic thing anyway. In S 1+2 and the first half of 3 Regina was characterized as the most powerful after Rumple and it seemed to be a fact. Afterwards, her magic seemed to get on a roller coaster ride and it works when they need it to work and it doesn't when they need it to not work. Which I find is getting a bit ridiculous.

 

As far as the healing is concerned - I had forgotten about Regina not healing Henry. She later does heal him... But the healing, I think has also been pretty inconsistent. One would assume that healing is light magic but Rumple wanted to heal Bae early on and Emma can heal Robin... Which circles back to the question of what does define light and dark magic. Obviously not the intent. And it's obviously not predetermined either.

 

Maybe A&E could give an interview on magic only...

Edited March 21, 2016 by CheshireCat

[KAOS Agent]

I laughed so hard at the huge production Rumpel went through to create that crystal ball. Non-magical Neal can grab one off the shelf no problem, but Rumpel has potions and a cauldron and a freaking eyeball in order to make one. The magic on this show makes no sense. 

[KingOfHearts]

It was a reference to the Hercules movie... in the movie, the Fates use an eyeball to see a visual of the future.

[Shanna Marie]

As far as the healing is concerned - I had forgotten about Regina not healing Henry. She later does heal him... But the healing, I think has also been pretty inconsistent. One would assume that healing is light magic but Rumple wanted to heal Bae early on and Emma can heal Robin...

Yeah, it's weird that in season 2, Regina can't heal Henry, but Rumple does. Then later, she can heal Henry, with no explanation about what's different.

 

Meanwhile, there's that cost issue. Rumple heals Henry with no cost whatsoever. Emma is able to heal as herself with no cost. But when she's Dark One and heals Robin, there's a cost with the Fury, even though Emma doesn't ask for anything and does it willingly. Is the issue the asking -- Rumple could heal Henry with no cost because he did it without anyone asking, but because Regina demanded that Dark Emma heal Robin before Emma had a chance to volunteer, that meant that a bargain was in place? If Emma had said, "Okay, but if I do this, I get sole custody of Henry. He can visit you whenever he wants and even spend the night, but he officially lives with me and I am his legal parent," then would there have been no Fury? Rumple has healed a lot of people with no Furies showing up, but aside from Henry and Bae, he always seems to ask for a price when someone asks him for a healing.

[InsertWordHere]

In Devil's Due, we got this exchange between Emma and Gold:

Emma: "So what, the gates of hell are in my house?"

Gold: "As was the stone of Excalibur. The pirate has a knack for targeting real estate with hidden value."

 

I had assumed because Hook cast the curse and Emma erased memories and put everyone in the diner before the curse swept everyone up, that one of them had control over where Excalibur was placed, but it sounds like Rumple is saying this isn't the case? When Regina cast the first curse, was it just coincidence that her vault and Rumple's shop were set up with a bunch of things from their realm? I always thought Regina or Rumple somehow placed them there intentionally. Did Regina cure her boredom in the first 18 years of the curse by going around collecting items that had been placed all around Storybrooke? Now I'm imaging all those hearts being scattered around town like a giant Easter Egg hunt.

[Shanna Marie]

I think I may have figured out what Emma's heart splitting plan is about. She's not going to put part of her heart in his dead body to bring him back to life. She's going to put it in his Underworld body, thus making it a living body rather than something that just exists in the spirit realm, and that would allow him to function as a living person to leave the Underworld and then exist in the real world, without a living person having to take his place in the Underworld. Both Hook and Emma would count as one person because of the one heart, and therefore the same number who went in would be leaving. So dead Hook's body would still be dead, but his soul would be given corporeal life. The former Dark Ones all managed to leave and exist in the world of the living. They just needed substitutes to go back in their place. This does the same thing, only without the need for a substitute.

 

Of course, she has no evidence or reason to believe it would work this way, but hey, this is the group of people who jumped on that search for the Author with no evidence that there was any magic involved there or that it had affected Regina's life at all (and it turned out it hadn't, but never mind).