Neal Cassidy/Baelfire: He Catches Shadows with Coconuts?

[didia]

I always believed that a Neal - Regina pairing would be great for the show (assuming the actors had chemistry). It would create a lot of conflicts. Rumple, Snowing and Henry wanted Emma and Neal to be a couple. Regina could start the relationship to spite Emma or to gain points with Henry, until we discover it is true love. We would have conflict because Neal hates magic, Rumple would  be mad that Regina, the monster he created, has his son. Emma would probably feel weird about the situation. Who knows how Henry would react. Snowing would think that the EQ "stole" Emma's "true love" ( if I remember 3A correctly). That way he could be relevant to the plot, even if the writers didn't want him as Rumple's leash. He would have more personality then Robin. I just didn't want him with Emma after everything he did to her, but he didn't have to die, again, he probably left the show beacause the writers wanted to add new toys.

[Serena]

I've also always thought Regina/Neal could have worked well, as long as he didn't get the Regina Lobotomy, Robin Hood style. But Neal as he was written when alive (and not the post-mortem saint)? I could see it.

[mjgchick]

Regina and Neal could've worked because of how douchey they are. I think a Regina pairing would work when the other person doesn't let her belittle them but knowing how A/E writes Regina's relationships with everyone Neal would've just submit to her just like how everyone else does. 

[RedKeep]

I could see it in theory, but have a hard time making MRJ as adult Bae and LP as s3-s5 Regina work well together in my head. Chemistrywise, etc. It's completely based on subjective feelings since I don't think they ever exchanged more than 1-2 words on screen in character, but... I just don't can't make it work in my head. But then I do think many of the show's issues with Neal came down to the poor casting choice. I actually really appreciate MRJ as an actor, he's fabulous in a lot of other projects I've seen him in, but there's just way too much of a disconnect between Baelfire and Neal Cassidy that can't be explained away only with the hard life he undoubtedly had after Rumple let the boy go through the vortex to the land without magic on his own. And the show not covering his backstory well at all obviously didn't help. So I think whatever potential I can see in a Neal/Regina pairing is based solely on the potential a better written adult Baelfire could have had in general as opposed to the Neal character the show actually presented us with. But then I also think a better written and cast adult Baelfire could have worked extremely well with Emma for me as well and I'd be absolutely down with a Robin Hood/Regina pairing if they'd bothered to develop him better as a character in his own right too. Way too much wasted potential on this show.

[Shanna Marie]

I think there were two big issues with Neal -- aside from the fact that he was basically a human McGuffin and they didn't really bother writing beyond that. One was the casting. Physically, he's just wrong. If you look at Rumple, young Bae, Henry, and Pan (imagining that Pan is what Malcolm looked like when he was young), Neal just doesn't fit at all. You would never pick him out as being related to any of them, and you'd definitely never spot him as the grown-up version of young Bae. Regardless of his actual age, he also looked a great deal older than even adult Emma, and they didn't bother to do anything to de-age him during the flashbacks, not even spraying temporary hair color on the gray in his hair.  The other issue was that they never bothered to do anything to bridge the gap between young Bae and adult Neal. The last time we saw young Bae, he was being taken to Pan after arriving in Neverland. The next time we see him, it's when Neal meets young Emma. That's more than a century. We go from a teen from a storybook world playing out a storybook story (in Neverland with Captain Hook and Peter Pan) to an adult who looks more than a decade older than he supposedly is and who is very "real world." We go from a heroic teen who sacrificed himself to try to save the Darlings to a drifting grifter macking on a teenage girl.

[Rumsy4]

8 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

So I have to think that his decision to follow August's advice/direction was based on fear over his father. That's fine, but it doesn't bode well for a hero.

That's the other thing that never made sense to me. Neal seemed shit scared of meeting his father, when dislike and anger would have been the more realistic emotion. Anyway when he does meet his father, he doesn't act afraid of him. So, it never made sense why he was so in fear of meeting his father.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's the other thing that never made sense to me. Neal seemed shit scared of meeting his father, when dislike and anger would have been the more realistic emotion. Anyway when he does meet his father, he doesn't act afraid of him. So, it never made sense why he was so in fear of meeting his father.

It wasn't fear of meeting his father as much as it was dealing with all the magical crap again. It was his own traumatic past that led him to steer clear away as much as possible. 

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's the other thing that never made sense to me. Neal seemed shit scared of meeting his father, when dislike and anger would have been the more realistic emotion. Anyway when he does meet his father, he doesn't act afraid of him. So, it never made sense why he was so in fear of meeting his father.

I felt the same way.  Not even speaking of Baelfire vs. Neal, but even Talahassee Neal vs. Manhattan Neal didn't track.  It's another example of how writing solely for plot twists and surprises result in very disjointed characterizations.

[Rumsy4]

Quote

 It's another example of how writing solely for plot twists and surprises result in very disjointed characterizations.

That's how I feel. The writers needed Neal to be afraid of meeting his father. So they had him betray Emma. But his earlier and later behavior do not show fear. Someone who was only afraid of dealing with all the magical crap wouldn't have dumped Emma's ass in jail. He actions were the actions of a coward on the run. After all, Neal was in the Lw/oM. His father couldn't magically coerce him to come with him (in S2 at least that was the case). It just seemed really off to me.

[kitticup]

When did Neal find out pan was his grandfather?   If he knew before Neverland arc, maybe that is why he became afraid of his father.  He knew what his grandfather became, maybe he thought his dad would be the same.

Edited May 7, 2016 by kitticup
Typo

[Rumsy4]

He only found out on the Jolly Roger, when everyone was returning from Neverland after rescuing Henry.

[Camera One]

Oh yeah, that was something else Neal never got to react to.  

[KingOfHearts]

I get really tired of the Neal mentions. Not because I hate his character (in some ways I actually do), but because they're incredibly forced most of the time. I believe their purpose is to keep him relevant while also whitewashing him in order to avoid drama the writers don't want to tap into. It's ironic because while Neal was still alive, the writers did everything to keep him irrelevant and make him look like a douche to fuel the angst. He is a plot device, not a character. To this day he's used only to fulfill the needs of the plot. (Like telling Emma how super dangerous the Underworld is.)

Edited May 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't mind the "white-washing" because often after someone dies, the family does focus on the positive and they have a romanticized impression of them.  A&E probably thinks it makes fans of the character feel better when there is a mention or two, but really, I doubt that is at all satisfying (it is presumptuous to think naming a baby after him would have made any fan feel better).  Would CS fans be satisfied if they killed off Hook and then mentioned Hook twice every half-season?  I suspect they will do the same for Robin Hood.

[mjgchick]

The white washing is so fake though. It makes his fans happy when the rest of us is wondering when did all this hero worship come from? He was a douche to Emma in front of Henry no less. It just seems like A&E is saying it's ok how he treated Emma.

 

If they had killed Hook I'd probably peace out because I would not want to see Emma be miserable or worse have her forget about someone who she loved and was a good person towards her for the most part. And of course Hook dying as well wouldn't work for me.

 

As for mentioning Robin Hood I think they'd mention him to give us Regina angst but with how they treated their last rape victim I don't know...

[Rumsy4]

We can add "making his child  keep secrets from the other parent(s)" to the list of Neal's excellent parenting skills, which include throwing the other parent under the bus to excuse his own actions, putting down the other parent in front of their child, and teaching a 11 year old how to pick up girls. 

[Curio]

Neal: Hey, Henry. Have I ever told you about the song I used to make your mom like me?
Henry: Aren't you engaged to Tamara right now?
Neal: Yeah, but I thought you might want to hear a nice story about me and your mom. Google the song "Only You."
Henry: Do you think this song will help me find a girlfriend, too?
Neal: For sure! Oh, and because we're super close now, want to keep a secret?
Henry: Sure! I love secrets! I'm so much better at keeping them than my Grandma!
Neal: I hate all magic. I want to destroy it all. It destroyed my family and will eventually destroy yours, too.
Henry: S...seriously? You do realize both my moms have magic, right?
Neal: Wait, Emma doesn't have magic, does she?
Henry: Yeah. She does.
Neal: Oh shit. See, this is why it's our little secret. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go give Tamara a workout.

[tri4335]

The writers are now trying to tell us that some great relationship existed when they have the perfect reason why Henry would know all this stuff. Since he became the author they could just show him "writing" his father's story.  But instead, we are suppose to believe all these bonding moments occurred in the 2.5 days they knew each other.

Edited May 17, 2016 by tri4335
fixing typos

[kili]

Quote

Neal: Wait, Emma doesn't have magic, does she?

Given the way Neal dismissed every achievement of Emma's, he would have said "Emma doesn't have magic. She just erroneously thinks she does." I ground my teeth when he mocked her lie detector (which was, at that time, pretty reliable).

Quote

Since he became the author they could just show him "writing" his father's story. 

That would actually have been a fabulous idea - 10 x better than the story they gave us.

[KAOS Agent]

It occurred to me that Neal is responsible for most of the horrible things that have happened in the last couple of seasons. Neal resurrected the Dark One for his own selfish purposes. That one act meant that Rumpel was back alive to mess around with the stupid hat and dagger which got him kicked out of town which led to him dying of a dark heart which led to the Author finale which led to his "death" which led to the Darkness escaping which led to Dark!Emma and Dark!Hook which led to Dark!Hook dying and the entire Underworld arc and then just when you think Neal can maybe get away with not being a huge reason for the bad things happening to Emma & Co, Henry reveals that his entire stupid plan in the finale was Neal's idea. So yep, we're back to all of Season 6 being partly Neal's fault too. What a hero!

[YaddaYadda]

Neal brought Tamara to SB (and let's face it, she was a hell of a lot smarter than Greg and Neal put together) she helped Greg Kidnap Henry. Travel to Neverland where David almost died, and Pan came to town and enacted the dark curse. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Neal brought Tamara to SB (and let's face it, she was a hell of a lot smarter than Greg and Neal put together) she helped Greg Kidnap Henry. Travel to Neverland where David almost died, and Pan came to town and enacted the dark curse. 

And Neal refused to listen to Emma's concerns about Tamara until it was too late. So, basically, every bad thing other than Zelena and Ingrid can be traced to Neal -- Henry's kidnapping, which led to all the stuff in Neverland, which led to Pan coming to Storybrooke, which led to the curse reverse. Then Rumple being revived, which led to the dark heart stuff, which led to the Author AU, Dark Emma, Dark Hook, Hook's death, the trip to the Underworld, and Robin's death. That also led to the Untold Stories stuff, since that was triggered by revived Rumple but then was also contributed to by Henry following Neal's "destroy all magic" plan.

[TheGreenKnight]

I don’t find Neal at fault for anything that’s happened except (maybe) Pan. I say maybe because Tamara did come from the Land Without Magic so it was probably difficult to believe she was a threat. This reminds me of the discussions about Emma being indirectly to blame for Robin's death at the end of last season.

[Mathius]

The one thing I refuse to blame him for is what Rumple did after Neal resurrected him.  That's all on Rumple breaking his graveside promise.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Mathius

[InsertWordHere]

In Neal's defense, he is responsible for trying to fix his mistake of helping Zelena by sending that bird to Hook, which got Emma and Henry to Storybrooke, and enabled Henry and Regina to break the memory curse and Regina to defeat Zelena with light magic. Of course, we don't know if Regina or the Charmings (okay, mostly Regina) would have found a way to get to her without Hook once they landed in Storybrooke, but we can assume it would have taken longer. Or maybe Hook would still have been able to outsail the extremely slow moving curse without an advance warning (it was already activated when Neal sent his message) but he wouldn't have had the memory potion.  

[YaddaYadda]

Ok, my post was actually a joke (I know, stuff like that gets lost in translation). The thing is, if we start playing the blame game, then everyone is to blame.

If Emma trusted Hook after she turned him into the Dark One, maybe none of the stuff that happened right after she gave him Excalibur wouldn't have happened. If Snow had executed Regina, the Dark Curse wouldn't have happened and we would all have been saved from Henry.

I blame Snow for everything actually. And this isn't a joke.

[Shanna Marie]

You really can't assign total blame in a lot of these cases because the real blame ultimately falls on the people who made the choice to do bad things. But I think there is some culpability for fallout from really bad decisions, especially really bad decisions made for bad reasons.

So I do blame Neal somewhat for the chain of events that stemmed from bringing Tamara to town because even if she hadn't turned out to be evil, it was still a really dumb thing to do that he did mostly to show off to Emma (which is weird considering he was the one who ditched her, so why was he the one doing all the "hey, look at my fiancee, did I mention that I'm engaged?" stuff?). He brought an outsider into that town and blabbed their secrets to her without really getting to know their situation or talking to any of the people in town. It might have been smarter for him to have taken some time to get to know his son before springing a fiancee on him, and it would have been better for him to get to know more about Storybrooke and talk to those people before jumping straight to "Hey, look, here are Snow White and Prince Charming and a bunch of fairytale people who have magic!" with an outsider. Some bad stuff might have happened even if he'd waited because Tamara had him pretty fooled, but on the other hand, maybe he'd have never gotten around to telling her because Greg and her ties to him might have been discovered first, or he'd have decided he really wanted to be with Emma after being around her and Henry, so he'd have broken things off before bringing Tamara to town. It's really just good manners to get to know the magical secret enclave and consult the people who live there before you start bringing in outsiders.

And while it was Rumple who made many, many, many bad/evil choices since he was brought back to life, from the sounds of things, he was on track to have the heart blackness problem even if he hadn't made bad choices. He might have lasted a little longer, but he was already a ticking time bomb. The world had been rid of the Darkness, and Neal reintroduced it for selfish reasons, with no plan, when he was warned that it was a trap. So I think there's some fairly direct responsibility for Emma having to become the Dark One there. That didn't have much of anything to do with anything Rumple did, other than coming back to town. It happened because the Darkness was back in the world, thanks to Neal, and needed somewhere to go. Neal's less responsible for what happened to Hook, since Zelena, Arthur, Emma, Nimue, and Hook himself were all major contributors, but what happened to Emma was a direct result of Neal bringing the Dark One back.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

He might have lasted a little longer, but he was already a ticking time bomb. 

So... why didn't Rumple heart reset after he died? 

I don't hate Neal, but I'm not fond of him either. He was dead weight at the end of the day. I agree he was a selfish jerk, but that doesn't necessarily mean I disliked him as a character. Like Robin, it was never about him. It was about other characters. (Rumple and Emma, in his case.) He made bad decisions because the plot needed him too. He couldn't walk the fine line between likeable Bae and hateable ex-boyfriend. Too much was trying to be accomplished with him and very little actually did. 

Quote

 but what happened to Emma was a direct result of Neal bringing the Dark One back.

Robin and Zelena had parts in that too. They both let Rumple live for selfish reasons.

Edited October 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

You really can't assign total blame in a lot of these cases because the real blame ultimately falls on the people who made the choice to do bad things. But I think there is some culpability for fallout from really bad decisions, especially really bad decisions made for bad reasons.

So I do blame Neal somewhat for the chain of events that stemmed from bringing Tamara to town because even if she hadn't turned out to be evil, it was still a really dumb thing to do that he did mostly to show off to Emma (which is weird considering he was the one who ditched her, so why was he the one doing all the "hey, look at my fiancee, did I mention that I'm engaged?" stuff?). He brought an outsider into that town and blabbed their secrets to her without really getting to know their situation or talking to any of the people in town. It might have been smarter for him to have taken some time to get to know his son before springing a fiancee on him, and it would have been better for him to get to know more about Storybrooke and talk to those people before jumping straight to "Hey, look, here are Snow White and Prince Charming and a bunch of fairytale people who have magic!" with an outsider. Some bad stuff might have happened even if he'd waited because Tamara had him pretty fooled, but on the other hand, maybe he'd have never gotten around to telling her because Greg and her ties to him might have been discovered first, or he'd have decided he really wanted to be with Emma after being around her and Henry, so he'd have broken things off before bringing Tamara to town. It's really just good manners to get to know the magical secret enclave and consult the people who live there before you start bringing in outsiders.

And while it was Rumple who made many, many, many bad/evil choices since he was brought back to life, from the sounds of things, he was on track to have the heart blackness problem even if he hadn't made bad choices. He might have lasted a little longer, but he was already a ticking time bomb. The world had been rid of the Darkness, and Neal reintroduced it for selfish reasons, with no plan, when he was warned that it was a trap. So I think there's some fairly direct responsibility for Emma having to become the Dark One there. That didn't have much of anything to do with anything Rumple did, other than coming back to town. It happened because the Darkness was back in the world, thanks to Neal, and needed somewhere to go. Neal's less responsible for what happened to Hook, since Zelena, Arthur, Emma, Nimue, and Hook himself were all major contributors, but what happened to Emma was a direct result of Neal bringing the Dark One back.

Bringing back the Darkness was stupid. He was impatient and really wouldn't wait to find a better way to get back to Henry and Emma. Even by that point we saw plenty of ways to get back to Land without Magic. He never stopped to consider them or find another way. Neal was smart enough to figure out a way to get to Neverland. But not stop and take a few days and poke around his dad's castle which probably had dozens of ways to get back to Emma and Henry. He should have known that because he knew his father.

[andromeda331]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

So... why didn't Rumple heart reset after he died? 

I don't hate Neal, but I'm not fond of him either. He was dead weight at the end of the day. I agree he was a selfish jerk, but that doesn't necessarily mean I disliked him as a character. Like Robin, it was never about him. It was about other characters. (Rumple and Emma, in his case.) He made bad decisions because the plot needed him too. He couldn't walk the fine line between likeable Bae and hateable ex-boyfriend. Too much was trying to be accomplished with him and very little actually did. 

Robin and Zelena had parts in that too. They both let Rumple live.

I agree it never was about him. If it was we would have seen Neal's reaction to Rumple orchestrating everything for centuries to find him or Rumple murdering his mother. Or his fiancée shooting him. Instead he immediately decides he loves Emma. We don't get to see him get called on sending Emma to jail for his crimes, which resulted in her giving up Henry. They could have shown what happened to him in Neverland.

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Robin and Zelena had parts in that too. They both let Rumple live for selfish reasons.

I never really understood what Robin's reasons were. With him, it seemed to be about wanting to be a hero. I don't think there would have been any negative consequences to Robin for letting Rumple die of the heart attack caused by his own evil. "Mr. Gold" wouldn't have been in any paperwork as a legal relative of "Neal Cassidy," so it's not like Rumple really had the power to give or take Neal's apartment. If anyone had any legal claim over that apartment (not even getting into the rent/mortgage issue), it would be Henry, and then only if Neal got around to changing his will after learning about Henry or if Henry (and his legal guardian) pushed it after he took a DNA test.

I do think Neal got robbed by the writers, and I wish they'd kept him around. There were so many interesting stories to tell, like how he transitioned into our world and went from Bae to Neal. I'd have loved to see a better story of his relationship with his father, rather than the ignore, hate, I love you in a matter of days. It would have been much more interesting if they'd actually dealt with all their issues, Neal's sense of betrayal, the fact that Rumple murdered Neal's mother, all the horrible things Rumple did in the name of reaching Neal when Neal didn't want to be reached, all the things Neal did to avoid his father (like going to our world rather than back to his own, even after a hundred or so years in Neverland). It would have been more interesting to see him living among fairy tale characters with his anti-magic bias rather than hearing about some plot to destroy magic long after his death. I was annoyed/bored by the Neal/Emma/Hook romantic triangle, but a "father" triangle with Rumple/Neal/Hook could have been really interesting -- what would Rumple have thought about his son's friendship with his worst enemy? I can think of a zillion more story possibilities with him than with Zelena or, really, even Belle. Definitely far more than with Robin or Will. But they killed off the guy who had such strong links to almost every other character and every other major story thread and then brought in random other characters who had links only to one other person.

Really, this character is the pivotal figure in the show because almost everything that ended up happening comes back to him (because so many of the events were engineered by Rumple to reach him), and he was reduced to being a human quest object rather than a character.

18 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

So... why didn't Rumple heart reset after he died? 

I think because it was still the same heart, and he was the same person. The Darkness was still in him. He was resurrected by a dark magic sacrifice, not by earning it and getting a gift from the gods (though I don't know that even Hook's heart got reset -- I bet it has a few dark blotches on it still, though it may be a bit lighter due to his heroism).

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I never really understood what Robin's reasons were. With him, it seemed to be about wanting to be a hero. 

Taking this to the Morality thread.

[Camera One]

The ironic thing is that A&E cast Neal based on that he looked like an ordinary guy who looked totally like he was from the Land Without Magic, and then they got bored of him because he was an ordinary guy who looked totally like he was from the Land Without Magic.  In terms of character relationships and character development, Neal had a huge amount of room to grow or develop.  Someone like Robin, was technically more difficult to write for because he didn't have much more room to grow.  One possibility was they needed to get rid of Neal because he would put a leash on Rumple, but based on Season 1, Belle should have done that too.  Having said that, having potential and that potential playing out on this show are two very different things.  If Neal had remained, they would never have explored the interesting stuff, and maybe he would have become a swinging yo-yo of emotions like Belle.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

They had zero interest in Neal outside of the super awesome twist that he was Henry's father. This was immediately apparent in S2 when they refused to let Neal/Rumpel have a single conversation about anything after the initial one in NYC because Rumpel was too busy wooing Lacey. He spent centuries trying to find his son and then after a death bed reconciliation, he couldn't have cared less about Neal. Even worse, they later had Rumpel basically write off Neal completely because Neal Cassidy was a reminder of his failure. 

Poor Neal was stuck with the much hated Tamara plot with a side of play sword fighting (and apparently magic destruction/how to pick up chicks) with Henry. The Bae/Rumpel relationship was the reason all of these people's lives are the way they are today. It was why Rumpel engineered the curse as he did. It was immensely frustrating that they refused to ever actually have Neal and Rumpel seriously deal with it all. That was why Neal should have been a major part of the show. Not as part of some half baked triangle or to introduce his evil fiancee. 

[kitticup]

See I always felt that Neal should have been part of the Tamara anti magic movement and the home office was legit.    having Neal work against his father and be conflicted about Emma would have made good tv, especially if they tied it in with the rest storybrooke being split about magic.  Most storybook citizens might want to live in magic less America than an enchanted forest at the mercy of Rumple and Regina.  It could have been a great undercurrent.  It would be a better reason for Neal to have left Emma if Neal was already involved in the anti magic group nad felt he needed to protect Emma. 

[Mari]

And, Nealfire had legitimate reasons to hate magic and distrust magic users.  It would have been a good fit for a lot of his story.

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, kitticup said:

I always felt that Neal should have been part of the Tamara anti magic movement and the home office was legit.

That would have made a lot of sense, especially since they later revealed that he was actually working on a way to get rid of magic. Tamara shouldn't have had to trick him. He'd have been totally up for her cause. That would have created some real conflict. Up until the time he knew he had a son and actually visited Storybrooke, it would have been an abstract concept to him. He had no reason to have any loyalty to anyone there, as they were all born at least a century after he went through the portal, so he wouldn't have thought much of destroying the place. Maybe not killing everyone, but finding a way to reverse the curse and send them all back for good, ridding this world of all magic. It's such a pity that they squandered the whole anti-magic storyline along with Neal/Bae because there was some potentially interesting stuff there. Like, wouldn't some of the Storybrooke people been on their side? Magic seems to have done more harm than good to most ordinary people. Neal was wrong in his kneejerk reaction to Emma's powers and his hypocrisy on the subject, where he changed his willingness to use magic based on what he needed or wanted, but he's not entirely wrong to have qualms about magic and how it's used.

[KAOS Agent]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:54 AM, TheGreenKnight said:

I don’t find Neal at fault for anything that’s happened except (maybe) Pan. I say maybe because Tamara did come from the Land Without Magic so it was probably difficult to believe she was a threat. This reminds me of the discussions about Emma being indirectly to blame for Robin's death at the end of last season.

Neal released the Darkness on the world when he resurrected Rumpelstiltskin. His father had made the ultimate sacrifice to contain the Dark One and Neal fucked that all to hell, so Neal is directly responsible for all that came after with regards to the Darkness. He's not responsible for individual choices or actions made by others, but he is responsible for those choices/actions having to be made. If the Dark One remains dead, none of the events of S5 happen because the Darkness is not free to mess with people's lives. 

We saw in S3 that it was immensely easy to get to the Land without Magic since Hook managed to snag a bean a day or two after getting a message about the coming curse.  For Hook/Snowing/Regina, a bean wouldn't do them much good because Emma wouldn't remember them without the memory potion, but Emma did know Neal. He wouldn't have been hamstrung by the memory curse. He would have had to start over and make up something beside Pinocchio made me do it with regards to ditching Emma, but he could have been a part of Henry's life.  Neal did something incredibly stupid that resulted in his death, his father's enslavement and the Darkness once more being unleashed on the world. That act had far reaching consequences that still continue three seasons later.

[InsertWordHere]

10 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

We saw in S3 that it was immensely easy to get to the Land without Magic since Hook managed to snag a bean a day or two after getting a message about the coming curse.  For Hook/Snowing/Regina, a bean wouldn't do them much good because Emma wouldn't remember them without the memory potion, but Emma did know Neal.

According to 3B, it was impossible to get to our world without the curse, even with a bean. The doorways were supposedly all shut. This goes against what we saw with Baelfire in Season 1 (unless there was another curse somewhere in the world at that time or it was a "special" bean), but that's what the show explicitly said. 

However, no one needed Rumple to get back to the LWOM. They needed Regina and someone whose heart they could split. Neal should have stuck with the Charmings. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, InsertWordHere said:

According to 3B, it was impossible to get to our world without the curse, even with a bean. The doorways were supposedly all shut. This goes against what we saw with Baelfire in Season 1 (unless there was another curse somewhere in the world at that time or it was a "special" bean), but that's what the show explicitly said. 

However, no one needed Rumple to get back to the LWOM. They needed Regina and someone whose heart they could split. Neal should have stuck with the Charmings. 

For everyone or for Regina? When Regina sad she had to undo the curse her cost would be losing Henry. I never understood how that meant everyone was now unable to try and find ways to get to LWOM. Regina, yes cause she casted.  

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

According to 3B, it was impossible to get to our world without the curse, even with a bean. The doorways were supposedly all shut. This goes against what we saw with Baelfire in Season 1 (unless there was another curse somewhere in the world at that time or it was a "special" bean), but that's what the show explicitly said. 

And then in the same episode, it promptly showed that to be a lie because Walsh was there and he had to have a) gotten there somehow and b) been in communication with Zelena which means doorways were not sealed. If Zelena couldn't get to Walsh, why would he have any interest in doing her bidding? Was he just hanging in NYC on the off chance that some day the Saviour would come there memory-less and need to be wooed? 

It was a bunch of nonsensical bullshit and Neal could have spent more than three days looking for a way to get to Emma & Henry before resurrecting the Dark One and undoing Rumpel's sacrifice especially when he knew that was exactly what Zelena wanted him to do. You don't bring the Darkness back once it's been contained. Releasing it has brought pain and death to his friends and family. 

[InsertWordHere]

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the impossible to get back explanation from 3B, but to be honest, as a fan of Snow and Charming, I'll take it. Otherwise, they look really, really bad for never trying to get back to their daughter and grandson until it was needed for the safety of their new baby. 

For some reason (I guess to "redeem" him of his biggest mistake before they killed him off?) the show wanted Neal and only Neal to be relentless in finding a way back to Henry and Emma. It makes no sense that Regina (the "price" of undoing the curse explanation doesn't work because she ended up playing an essential role in the way they did get back to our world), Snow, Charming (you know the one whose motto is something something find something), and Hook (who has continuously  hopped worlds, but to be fair, so has Neal) wouldn't be just as relentless in trying to get back. 

It would have made more sense if there was a way to get back but the others were hesitant because Henry and Emma wouldn't remember them. Just say the undoing of the curse literally erased those memories forever or something. It would still seem out of character for Hook and the Charmings not to go but it would make it so Neal felt he was the only one who could. But maybe he would be scared of Emma's reception so he sought his father's help to undo the impossible memory curse or something. 

[Rumsy4]

I think the writers wanted a twist where Neal gave in to temptation to resurrect the Dark One for his purposes, without considering the consequences for others. He who had blamed his father for turning a Dark One was now seeking Dark Magic. If he had spent months trying to find a way to reach our world, and finally gave in to desperation, it would have been more understandable. He was so brash and arrogant over the whole thing. Even after Belle warned him about stopping, he went full steam ahead. It was tragistupid.

[Camera One]

First of all, the Writers couldn't care less about Snowing and the effect of losing Emma, since they were more interested in Regina's grief over losing Henry.  They had nothing for Snowing to do in 3B except for the "shocking" twist that they cast the Dark Curse, which is meant to show us once again that Regina isn't so bad since Snow did it too.  Meanwhile, there was no way they could kill off their beloved Rumple, so Neal was the sacrifice the Writers' Room demanded, especially since he was so boring to write for.  As "consolation" for dying, they made sure Neal did something heroic.  Add to that "wouldn't it be cool if Rumple and Neal shared a body/mind (and we don't bother to leave any lasting consequences on Rumple)?", and we got what we got.  Snow, Charming and Neal all came off looking stupid and insensitive and selfish and hopefully a bunch of people enjoyed that.

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:31 PM, KAOS Agent said:

Neal released the Darkness on the world when he resurrected Rumpelstiltskin. His father had made the ultimate sacrifice to contain the Dark One and Neal fucked that all to hell, so Neal is directly responsible for all that came after with regards to the Darkness. He's not responsible for individual choices or actions made by others, but he is responsible for those choices/actions having to be made. If the Dark One remains dead, none of the events of S5 happen because the Darkness is not free to mess with people's lives. 

We saw in S3 that it was immensely easy to get to the Land without Magic since Hook managed to snag a bean a day or two after getting a message about the coming curse.  For Hook/Snowing/Regina, a bean wouldn't do them much good because Emma wouldn't remember them without the memory potion, but Emma did know Neal. He wouldn't have been hamstrung by the memory curse. He would have had to start over and make up something beside Pinocchio made me do it with regards to ditching Emma, but he could have been a part of Henry's life.  Neal did something incredibly stupid that resulted in his death, his father's enslavement and the Darkness once more being unleashed on the world. That act had far reaching consequences that still continue three seasons later.

My morality does not work that way. People are responsible for their own decisions, not the crimes of others. It's impossible to be “directly” responsible for something you had no part in doing with your own hands. Neal isn't to blame for any of Rumpel's behavior after being revived. There's also the fact that Rumpel did die to stop Pan, which would have lead Neal to believe that Rumpel had finally changed for the better and wouldn't have fallen back into the same behavior. Neal's case is a bit different than Robin saving Rumpel or Snow letting Regina live.

[KingOfHearts]

From Spoilers thread, no spoilers:

Quote

My problem with Neal is that they're trying to turn him into a ghost sage trope who spouts out things when he was just a character that the writers struggled to do anything with his character after reuniting with Rumple, Emma, and Henry.  He gives out a warning to Emma in the UW arc and that ended up going nowhere, they try to use him for sad scenes for Rumple but they've turned Rumple into a cartoon villain for the last couple of seasons so it has no impact whatsoever.

I've never really hated Neal. He's just a very flawed character, which I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with if the show recognized it. What I don't like about him, especially posthumously, is the romanticizing. Calling him a hero, a great father, son or lover, etc. All the stupid things he did are forever blocked out of the characters' minds. I understand putting him in a positive light in front of Henry, but gets way too much positive affirmation in private moments long after his death. The placating just never ends. Meanwhile, characters like Graham are lost to the sands of time.

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People do tend to romanticize people who are gone.  It makes sense for a character like Henry to speak of his father in a glorified way.  Is the number of Neal remembrances really that numerous to get worked up about?

I do agree that part of these positive comments are the Writers' lame attempt to placate fans of the character.  I call it lame because to me, naming a baby after Neal was an insult to fans who didn't want their character's identity replaced someone else.  Almost all their references are just throwing pointless crumbs.  That single scene in the car with Neal at the premiere of 5B's purpose was to create anticipation and intrigue for the Underworld and not about developing Neal.  It's actually the opposite of honoring Neal's character when they use him to create retonned plot points for convenience, like saying Neal told Henry about how to destroy magic, which actually makes no sense.  

The bottom line is the Writers had no interest in Neal when he was alive, and they still don't.  Wishing or hoping they'd posthumously deal with the poor decisions he made in "Tallahassee" is a lost cause.  To me, August is even more to blame than Neal in that regard, and 4B declared him Emma's best friend and the wisest sage there is.

[KingOfHearts]

I didn't watch S2 when it aired. Was anyone here shocked that Neal was Baelfire, or did you know it was him from when he was introduced? I'm curious to know what the reactions were. I was watching Manhattan with a friend, and before the reveal she thought, "Wait... what if Emma's lover was Rumple's son? I'll be so done if that happens!"

Edited March 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I recall that a lot of people saw it coming. There were a number of theories. I don't remember being too surprised when they reached Baelfire's apartment and Neal was there. Neal pretty much had to be connected to the story in some way, since they bothered doing a flashback of their relationship, with August intervening, and since Neal appeared in the opener. There weren't too many other missing threads of Enchanted Forest characters to be picked up, so Neal=Baelfire was rather obvious. If Henry's father were just some random guy who had a big effect on Emma emotionally but who was in no way connected with the story, they wouldn't have had him in the season premiere or had him interacting with August in a flashback.

[Curio]

I didn't read spoilers in Seasons 1 or 2 and I thought it was pretty obvious that Neal was Bae.