Social Media and Behind the Scenes: AKA Everything Else Not "News and Media"

[SmallScreenDiva]

 

“One day on the set I said to her, ‘The Flash, The Atom and Green Arrow are all in love with you,'” Kreisberg recalls. “She had the greatest answer; she goes, ‘I think the reason it works is because I don’t look like the girl that you’d think that about.’ Emily is really the superhero of both shows.”

 

'Arrow' Without Oliver? Producers Preview the Rise of Black Canary, ATOM and Brick

[dtissagirl]

Year ago, BamBam used to hang out occasionally at a huge Stargate board on a huge fansite. His main mode was sexist dudebro back then, and the more problematic the shows became [all of the shows had serious issues in various different social topics, but as they progressed it became worse, especially with SGU, which was a ginourmous mess of -isms], the more defensive he became.

[Happy Harpy]

If he didn't say "real girl power" I don't think anyone would've cared. 

 

But with the inclusion of "real girl power" it was just alienating and sort of sexist. 

It's a pity because one thing that imo Arrow did right (at least before they killed Moira off and made Thea and even Laurel a mask) was to balance many kind of female characters, and they were all presented as empowered/kickass in their own way. In that respect, Donna is a very welcome late addition for me, she re-created a bit of that old balance.

 

If Boy Power was as popular as GIrl Power was I am sure that Diggle etc.. would be referred to as such. Spice GIrls made the term popular and it has stuck .

And the Spice Girls' "girl power" wasn't referring exclusively at one type, which is imo the reason for its success. For a Sporty and a Scary  you had a Baby and a Posh  so every girl could identify (or almost...it was missing a "Brainy" as a sixth ranger, but well). The "tomboy" types were also presented as sexy, the  "girly girl" types were no wuss. It wasn't perfect, but it had the merit to expand the scope beyond the traditional tropes imo.

This is why it's even more a pity for me to use this term of "girl power" in a way that can be perceived as reductive, implying that being physically strong in a warrior-like way is the "real" power.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[EmilyBettFan]

He shouldn't use the term real anyway. This is a show. Just shows who he really is and what he only really likes concerning the show. He's a dumb dumb.

[Orion]

I follow very few celebs or Hollywood type people on social media just because I would rather not know them or their views outside of their shows. If they become problematic it damages my ability to suspend my disbelief when I'm watching them. (I still can't watch anything with Tom Cruise after his Today show and couch jump performances)  so I often don't see this kind of thing unless I'm reading about it on a message board so I don't know how prevalent this type of thing is.

 

But to me this speaks to a larger problem with this show both in the narrative on screen and the behind the scenes. At a certain point there became a concerning, at least for me, narrative that masks and fighting equal being a hero. Everything from who went to the Heroes and Villains con last year, to the Superhero photo shoot, to the finale last year where they had the line, that "the city wasn't lacking masks," and Oliver responded, "heroes" as if one begat the other. 

 

And I understand that this is a superhero show and the audience is suppose to take the costume as a hero indicator but I always viewed superheroes as people who were put forward to shine a light on the aspects of all of us that make us heroic. To show the qualities that we should all strive for.  Heroes sacrifice and help strangers because that's the right thing to do. They give their lives so others can live. They are the single mom that works 3 jobs so her kids can have what they need or the first responders that run into danger to save others or the people in the military that fight so others can be free. No one can be Superman, Captain America Flash, or the Green Arrow but they all have qualities that normal, everyday people can try to achieve and be heroes. I'm sure it sounds corny but when I watched Wonder Woman or Greatest American hero as a kid those were the messages I took away from the shows. I definitely don't get that same message watching Arrow.

 

I realize that this guy is more than likely a man who is a stunt dude excited for his episode and highlighting some awesome super duper fight scene with the two female fighters on his show and I shouldn't apply all of this to him. And it's not all his fault. The show itself doesn't treat Donna (the single Mom) or Diggle (until this year when he got a mask) and Lyla (the war veterans) or Moira (who gave her life for her children) or Felicity (the average person who goes into to danger to save others) as heroes and I think that's a problem from GB all the way down to the stunt dude.  The narrative they all present Is exclusionary instead of inclusive. I really wish they would do better.

 

"Real" girl power wears a lot of different hats and I'd like to see that represent more on this show and behind the scenes.  That and CW should start forcing its cast and crews to take PR courses.

[looptab]

'Arrow' Without Oliver? Producers Preview the Rise of Black Canary, ATOM and Brick

Yes, that was it. I don't see what was problematic about that quote?

 

As for Bamford, not trying to justify him or the views he may or may not have, but couldn't it be he just made a poor choice of words? Like, maybe he said "real" as in "great"? IDK.

[EmilyBettFan]

He rephrased it and went on a spree talking to Felicity fans. I'm sorry but once again he made a mistake saying martial prowess. The only martial artist on the show and off screen that they had was Caity.

Stunt doubles are doing most if not all of the work for Thea and Laurel. There's a gif going around Twitter that shows Laurel completely missing her target. Her fist goes over his head and there's a clear view of it.

[Primal Slayer]

Is he not allowed to praise his actors? Especially when it seems to me it is very clear that he is talking about their characters, deconstructing every little thing that anyone says on this show, it would be a good laugh. 

 

If he said that EBR is the greatest hacker or whatever, what response would it get? She doesn't actually hack or do anything on the computer? she pretends to hit some keys? Big whoopdedoo. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Velocity23]

Well he didnt say LL and Thea would show martial prowress he focused on the actresses. And his initial tweet didnt say a thing about fighting skills or stunts. It talked about "real" girl power. And in that tweet he ignored the only woman from the regular cast that doesnt wear a mask.

[Primal Slayer]

It was clear to me he was referring to their characters and praising the actors for whatever work they did. When he says that Paul Blackthorne will show what REAL bravery is, I don't think he is saying that the actor did something really really brave on set, I think he is talking about Quentin. I guess no one else on the show has ever done anything real brave.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[apinknightmare]

It was clear to me he was referring to their characters and praising the actors for whatever work they did. When he says that Paul Blackthorne will show what REAL bravery is, I don't think he is saying that the actor did something really really brave on set, I think he is talking about Quentin. I guess no one else on the show has ever done anything real brave.

This seems to be a Felicity specific issue though, on a show full of people fighting and wearing masks, and where the focus is increasingly on that, that the physicality of these characters is what makes them brave/strong/etc. I think that's where the nerve is; not that no one has ever done anything physical or brave but that Felicity is repeatedly left out of these discussions because she's not fighting and doesn't wear a mask.

Thankfully she's still recognized for her strengths in-show.

[Velocity23]

But why in hell use girl power for action senquences and stunts? That just makes him a mysogynist jerk who has a fetish for people in mask IMO. He is the director of the episode that means he represents it. He could have complimented KC and Willa without showing his preferences.

[tarotx]

I think the issue I have with the use of the "real" is because "girl power" is a slogan that women have used to build self respect in ourselves and our differences. And then here is a guy using it to praise one type. It's like he's making fun of us by adding that real. It's Like 'no only physical action girls have real girl power'.

I get he wanted to emphasize that Thea and Laurel would literally kick ass this episode. But whats wrong with just saying that?

And I have no issue with it really being the Stunt doubles kicking ass. That's still Thea and Laurel. Though if that big wanted to do for years stunt is with Thea and Laurel I do feel sad because I fear it's going to be a mess going by what's happened this season. WH transitions well between her stunt double but KC does not. But Even DR and SA have had their stunts in near pitch blackness.

Edited November 15, 2015 by tarotx

[Guest]

I don't care that Bam didn't include Felicity. Not like I need telling or validation that she's a hero. She is one. He could have phrased it better but seeing as he has his favorites I'm not surprised. Meh. Whatever.

I am disappointed that his episode is going to be promoted and the female director from 404 barely had any promotion from the cast. Badly done, IMO. Sexist little boys club.

[apinknightmare]

But why in hell use girl power for action senquences and stunts? That just makes him a mysogynist jerk who has a fetish for people in mask IMO. He is the director of the episode that means he represents it. He could have complimented KC and Willa without showing his preferences.

Given this guy's professional background, I'm gonna guess that he's always considered women who fight and use their bodies to be the powerful, kickass types. Probably never even considered that you can be powerful and kickass with your brain. And I'm guessing he really didn't think too hard about what he was tweeting and the implications, and just wanted to convey that Laurel and Thea have a great fight scene. I wish I could say that Twitter educated him about that, but probably not.

Edited November 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Velocity23]

Well i guess i will be playing spot the stunt double game during those scenes.

[kismet]

It's a pity because one thing that imo Arrow did right (at least before they killed Moira off and made Thea and even Laurel a mask) was to balance many kind of female characters, and they were all presented as empowered/kickass in their own way. In that respect, Donna is a very welcome late addition for me, she re-created a bit of that old balance.

And the Spice Girls' "girl power" wasn't referring exclusively at one type, which is imo the reason for its success. For a Sporty and a Scary you had a Baby and a Posh so every girl could identify (or almost...it was missing a "Brainy" as a sixth ranger, but well). The "tomboy" types were also presented as sexy, the "girly girl" types were no wuss. It wasn't perfect, but it had the merit to expand the scope beyond the traditional tropes imo.

This is why it's even more a pity for me to use this term of "girl power" in a way that can be perceived as reductive, implying that being physically strong in a warrior-like way is the "real" power.

I think Ginger was supposed to be the smart one, but in many ways they were all smart or brainy in their own ways.

Without opening a can of worms there are positive ways to use the term girl like in the Dove commercials were females take back the power. And it also sometimes is less offensive when used by females. But not always. And I still agree as a gender we should aim higher than reduce us to girls.

The way BamBam used it was offensive and definitely exclusive & reductive to females. It's was sexist and narrow minded. Perhaps not his intent, but that is the result. For me he probably meant sometype of dig to females because he made sure to include the word "real" & for me that set the sexist tone.

As for the show, I think they still do strive to show all sides of females. It does feel somewhat balanced to a certain degree**. No one ideal of femininity is preached or valued over another. If anything O/F relationship is showing that typical gender roles are not a requirement for a happy or normal life. This tweet is BamBams personal opinion & for me is not reflective of the show.

Edited - ** for clarification.I think the show could strive for more balance in it's representation of femininity. But its at least trying to show multiple & different sides.

Edited November 15, 2015 by kismet

[Guest]

I don't follow Bam but is he at least mentioning DR and Diggle seeing as this is his episode? Because all I'm getting from here is that he's hyping the Lance family and Thea. Uh okay dude. Okay. Pretty sure I've seen three years' worth of true bravery on the show from every character at some point but whatever.

Maybe he should get back to focusing on his real job of stunt directing seeing as those have taken a huge nose dive into less than average-ville since the end of season 2. It's like he peaked with that s2 finale fight between Oliver and Slade and never topped it.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Guest

[Velocity23]

He did mention Diggle.

[dtissagirl]

If you guys read Mo Ryan's article on the lack of diversity in tv directors, and/or listened to the Ryan & Ryan podcast in which she talked about it -- Arrow giving BamBam an episode to direct is pretty much the prime example of EVERYTHING that is exclusionary and prejudiced in Hollywood wrt diversity, and sexism. And Bam fits right into that, and with gusto.

[looptab]

After this Bamford discussion I went and read the IMDB page for Arrow, and now I got questions! For example, Bamford is listed as stunt coordinator/fight coordinator/ fight coreographer, and he is also the one who is mentioned the most from cast and producers, yet there is this JJ Makaro person who is also a stunt coordinator, and is listed in more episodes. Who is this guy? 

Also, but I think it's a mistake, Guggenheim is listed as Executive Producer for 46 episodes? The only S3 ones listed are The Offer and the finale, I think, and then the S4 premiere. 

[dtissagirl]

They have 4 or 5 stunt coordinators, because depending on the size of the stunt, they might take a lot of time to get done, and these dudes have to divide themselves into separate episodes. For example, BamBam didn't even meet Lexi Alexander, all the stunt work in her episode was done by Makaro.

 

And I think Makaro is more specialized in action stunts, and BamBam in fight stunts.

[looptab]

They have 4 or 5 stunt coordinators, because depending on the size of the stunt, they might take a lot of time to get done, and these dudes have to divide themselves into separate episodes. For example, BamBam didn't even meet Lexi Alexander, all the stunt work in her episode was done by Makaro.

 

And I think Makaro is more specialized in action stunts, and BamBam in fight stunts.

That makes sense. Thank you =)

[EmilyBettFan]

Maybe that's why he never tweeted about Lexi's episode. He most likely felt like he wasn't a part of it therefore he didn't feel the need to tweet about it. So much for being someone who preaches that they "include" everyone.

Guy is surely showing his colors slowly.

[SmallScreenDiva]

That "real girl power" tweet has been deleted and James Bamford posted this:

 

Our good friends @Willaaaah and @MzKatieCassidy will be demonstrating the definition of martial prowess...For those offended previous. ;)

[jay741982]

That "real girl power" tweet has been deleted and James Bamford posted this:

Their stunt doubles maybe

[looptab]

Was the screentime for episode 406 posted?

[dtissagirl]

That "real girl power" tweet has been deleted and James Bamford posted this:

 

Wow, the winky face is the best part. Passive-aggressive "for those offended", but here's an emoji to offset my butthurt.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Wow, the winky face is the best part. Passive-aggressive "for those offended", but here's an emoji to offset my butthurt.

 

My thoughts, exactly. Couldn't have gone with just  straight tweet since it's already a mea culpa. 

[tv echo]

I love superhero movies and shows, especially featuring kickass women who can fight and aren't just damsels in distress.  On the other hand, they do kinda send a message to children that the ability to inflict physical violence is a good thing and part of being a "hero". I just think of all those news stories where teen girls are caught on video fighting each other or beating up on a fellow student.

 

Sometimes it takes more strength (of character) not to fight than to fight.  And sometimes you can fight in other ways (for example, using brains, skills and wits). That's not to say that physical fighting isn't sometimes necessary.

 

Maybe there just needs to be a clearer message sent that there are all kinds of ways of showing strength (or "power") and that heroes come in all types (as others have said above).  And that applies to both men and women in the superhero genre

Edited November 15, 2015 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

I don't follow Bam but is he at least mentioning DR and Diggle seeing as this is his episode? Because all I'm getting from here is that he's hyping the Lance family and Thea. Uh okay dude. Okay. Pretty sure I've seen three years' worth of true bravery on the show from every character at some point but whatever.

Maybe he should get back to focusing on his real job of stunt directing seeing as those have taken a huge nose dive into less than average-ville since the end of season 2. It's like he peaked with that s2 finale fight between Oliver and Slade and never topped it.

I may have mentioned the crapfest final OQ/RAG fight on his Twitter.  And the fact (that I will never stop repeating) that the big sword thrust to the side that supposedly disabled RAG COMPLETELY MISSED.  

[Balaclava]

James Bamford is one problematic person! That tweet he deleted yesterday is only one of many douche-y tweets he likes to put out there in the world once in a while. If only he took the time and energy to work harder on the Arrow stunts and tweeted less BS, that would be great. Quite frankly, the stunts in S3 and so far in S4 look like amateur work

[Chaser]

Reading through his twitter, he views any criticism of his work as agenda-based. Apparently any thing said to him last night was also agenda-based. Therefore…winky face.

 

i'm just going to be ignoring his SM. 

[tv echo]

Go to link for video (it's in French, but English translation is below)...

John Barrowman Official
A video message for my Friends and Fans in #Paris and throughout #France. (Translation) Pardon me for my poor French, to my fans in Paris and throughout France. My Heart and thoughts are with you. Courage and Strength. Liberty Equality and Brotherhood. Much love #prayforparis Jb

https://www.facebook.com/JohnBarrowmanOfficial/videos/1070145669662521/?_rdr=p

[tv echo]

I don't think these were posted yet - KSiteTV's videos of cast interviews from last month's on-set media tour...

 

Arrow on Set - Echo Kellum (Curtis Holt) Interview

 

Arrow on Set: Paul Blackthorne Interview

 

Arrow Interview: Emily Bett Rickards on Set - Season 4

 

Arrow: Stephen Amell on Oliver's Run For Mayor, Olicity Ring, Crossovers & More

[Ceylon5]

Was the screentime for episode 406 posted?

 

Here you go (source):

 

406 – Lost Souls:

• Oliver 22.32

• Felicity: 19.37

• Diggle: 8.27

• Thea: 6.50

• Laurel: 6.28 

• Damien: 3.06

• Lance: 2.45

• Malcolm: 0

[Ann Mack]

Wow, the winky face is the best part. Passive-aggressive "for those offended", but here's an emoji to offset my butthurt.

Exactly what a douche move. He's not apologizing for "offending" anyone he is just trying to make it go away and hope he hasn't turned anyone off from watching his episode with "martial prowess" being demonstrated. He's still an uneducated prick on the matter. BTW and for the record I hate when someone says "for those offended" like its not my fault if you took it the wrong way. What an a-hole.

[Guest]

Here you go (source):

 

406 – Lost Souls:

• Oliver 22.32

• Felicity: 19.37

• Diggle: 8.27

• Thea: 6.50

• Laurel: 6.28 

• Damien: 3.06

• Lance: 2.45

• Malcolm: 0

 

It's amazing, in terms of screen time Damien was barely on and yet he has such presence he makes it count. I'm not sure a villain will ever top Slade for me personally in terms of feeling like he was this lingering presence/threat in episodes where we didn't even see him, but NM is coming close with his performance. Nice one.

[Primal Slayer]

I was surprised Laurel was featured as much as she was. This was her NYCFW episode right?

[calliope1975]

Given this guy's professional background, I'm gonna guess that he's always considered women who fight and use their bodies to be the powerful, kickass types. Probably never even considered that you can be powerful and kickass with your brain. And I'm guessing he really didn't think too hard about what he was tweeting and the implications, and just wanted to convey that Laurel and Thea have a great fight scene. I wish I could say that Twitter educated him about that, but probably not.

 

It's frustrating because it's indicative of what Hollywood, and a lot of everyone, think what makes strong women. It's annoying because this has been an ongoing, vocal discussion over the past few years with so many A-list actresses talking about being physically strong is NOT what makes a strong woman and trying to broaden that definition. Seeing how people reacted to Felicity's crying last year just proves that there's a long, long way to go. And it won't get changed until it's called out every time. Do I think he meant anything derogatory by it to any other cast members? Nope. I do think it's part of a old school, boy's club way of thinking about women that needs to change. 

[Chaser]

According to one of the journalists going to the Flarrow screening, the cast will be there.

[lemotomato]

Well, that sucks for me.

I got the impression that SA was involved with some of the planning of Heroes and Villains, given how hard he was promoting it. Did he really have no idea that the Flarrow screening might be on the same weekend since it was that weekend last year?

Edited November 15, 2015 by lemotomato

[Sunshine]

According to one of the journalists going to the Flarrow screening, the cast will be there.

What cast though?  The regulars or the LOT cast being introduced in these 2 episodes with maybe Grant hosting?

[Primal Slayer]

Seeing how people reacted to Felicity's crying last year just proves that there's a long, long way to go. And it won't get changed until it's called out every time. Do I think he meant anything derogatory by it to any other cast members? Nope. I do think it's part of a old school, boy's club way of thinking about women that needs to change.

That's been a problem since day 1 with Laurel. Even being a hero, she was looked as both off and on show that she wasn't worthy of being a hero even though she was more then worthy in the first season. That part has yet to really change and has bled over to Flash.

[wonderwall]

I never saw this one before but this is sweet :')

 

[BkWurm1]

I think the issue I have with the use of the "real" is because "girl power" is a slogan that women have used to build self respect in ourselves and our differences. And then here is a guy using it to praise one type. It's like he's making fun of us by adding that real. It's Like 'no only physical action girls have real girl power'.

I get he wanted to emphasize that Thea and Laurel would literally kick ass this episode. But whats wrong with just saying that?

And I have no issue with it really being the Stunt doubles kicking ass. That's still Thea and Laurel. Though if that big wanted to do for years stunt is with Thea and Laurel I do feel sad because I fear it's going to be a mess going by what's happened this season. WH transitions well between her stunt double but KC does not. But Even DR and SA have had their stunts in near pitch blackness.

Something occurred to me about the use of "real" girl power.  I think we need to remember that Bambam is a stunt coordinator on a show that takes pride in doing as realistic stunts as possible.  You know what show is showcasing a bunch of stunts featuring girl power but it's all wire work and special effects?  Supergirl.  Sure they are both Berlanti shows but you bet that there would be some envy about the kind of effect budget that show gets and it's not even real, but now he gets to show off REAL girl power. 

 

He can't come out and say it directly because that would be taking way too obvious pot shots at the hand that feeds him but knowing what is important to him and the kind of gossip that would be happening between these shows, yeah, it feels logical. 

 

I don't think he was thinking of Felicity at all. 

[kismet]

The choice of the word "real" was in poor taste no matter which group he was trying to snub. The tweet probably would have still irked me if it only said "girl power" but it was the "real" part that threw me over the edge. I also do not think it added anything to his argument besides being condascending and the winky face after his apology was just juvenile.

Edited November 16, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

Aww, EBR did a photoshoot for some magazine this weekend. Pics look nice. Should i post in Felicity thread or media thread?

ETA since this is social media

ETA: posted more to Felicity thread

Edited November 16, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[jay741982]

Aww, EBR did a photoshoot for some magazine this weekend. Pics look nice. Should i post in Felicity thread or media thread?

ETA since this is social media

ETA: posted more to Felicity thread

Hubba Hubba

[SleepDeprived]

What cast though?  The regulars or the LOT cast being introduced in these 2 episodes with maybe Grant hosting?

 

It may be all/most of the Flash cast and whichever LoT cast members who are actually going to be in the crossovers that are attending the Flarrow screening. As of right now, Danielle Panabaker's schedule changed from Saturday & Sunday to just Saturday on the Guest list of the Heroes and Villains FanFest. The rest of the Arrow cast who will be at San Jose, and Caity Lotz, still have Saturday & Sunday listed.