Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

I believe it is actually in the book.  Just not at that particular moment.  It isn't Ned that says it either.  I think it is Benjen, to Jon, but I'm not positive.  

 

But it is said, it just isn't something Ned says to Jon.  

 

 

 

(Ok, I did that, too).

 

Something has just occurred to me and I think I understand why it is that the Reeds being presented as "Yo, they are EVIL" wouldn't have occurred to any of you, or registered as such.  For all the characters given short shrift, or created,  Osha is the only character who has an expanded role that isn't a composite.  She's a much, much bigger and more layered character in the series than in the book.   The essential bones of the characterization are there in the book, but the Show did the opposite of what they did with Jaime: they made her far more complex. 

 

She's the only reason Bran and Rickon live and not just because she thinks to hide in the catacombs.  She purposefully deceives Theon, practically gives Bran a "pssst....it's okay....note how I just called you my little lord, while saying things were different....thereby indicating that nothing has changed....thankfully Theon is wicked levels of dim, so it doesn't matter, but you get the drift, right Bran?"  ....and he does.  She takes care of Hodor.  She actually screws Theon to help the Stark boys and when faced with a guard is one of the ONLY characters in the entire series (not named Arya) to think very, very quickly on her feet.  

 

Then she puts Luwin out of his misery at his request.  

 

So to someone who doesn't know "Hey, in the books, Osha is essentially there, with a spear and a good musculature and nothing more"  ...it's an incredibly serious "No one who cares about these boys....and also claims to be pyschic <---- ding ding ding -- could possibly treat this woman with anything other than the utmost respect...unless they were lying about caring about the Stark boys" move.  

 

So I understand why you guys weren't appalled, but count up the number of times someone has been allowed to be selfless, brave, loyal and a fast-thinker in this series....for no personal gain.  

 

Yeah, it didn't take us long either.  I'm telling you, they fucked that one up on a scale that kind of baffles me.  

 

Again, thanks guys.  I really argued pretty ...let's go with spiritedly, shall we? So I'm glad it was fun to witness vs.  "In the Center Ring, for Your Entertainment....a really poorly trained poster will fail to hop through the correct loop....forty times in a row!"  Good to know :-) 

Edited October 1, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Shanna Marie]

I don't recall being upset with the way the Reeds were treated on the show, but probably because they hadn't made a huge impression on me in the books at that time. I don't think I clued in at their arrival that they were that important, so I barely recalled how they were supposed to show up. On the show, I was mostly focused on loving the casting because I've enjoyed both actors in other things, and they were such a perfect match to what I had in my head.

 

Also, I may have been somewhat sidetracked by an inappropriate giggle fit. Thomas Sangster (Jojen) was the voice of Ferb on Phineas & Ferb, and back in 2010 there was an episode in which Ferb dressed as a forest elf for a science fiction convention. Jojen's costume was an almost perfect real-life re-creation of that cartoon costume, so when Jojen appeared looking like that and speaking with Ferb's voice, I couldn't help but call out, "Hey, it's Ferb! On Game of Thrones!" and collapse in giggles. That sidetracked me enough that I wasn't thinking about how wrong their entrance was for the characters.

[Delta1212]

You know, I think you're right. I can't think of a single other character up through book/season 5 that got expanded on in quite the way that Osha did without it being the result of taking on the role of other characters or reimagining the character to the point that it was essentially slapping a familiar name on a mostly invented character.

[Avaleigh]

The Reeds look *nothing* like how I pictured they would especially Meera.

[Dev F]

My feelings about the television version of the Reeds are fairly complicated. In the books, I like the idea of the Reeds better than the characters themselves. It's such a fascinating template for a noble house, these bog-dwelling hunters who are small and strange and shrewd and wise, and if I could pick any Westerosi house to belong to, it would be House Reed. But in practice I find book!Jojen and book!Meera a bit too ethereal to be that interesting; they're all warning and portent, not real human beings, real children.

 

In that sense, I was happy that the show was able to take the idea of the Reeds and embody them in characters that are a lot earthier and more vulnerable. (It's something the showrunners are particularly good at, in my opinion -- though I'm sometimes in the minority to prefer, say, the show's wry, cautious Yara Greyjoy to the books' showboating Asha, Warrior Princess.) Where the books portray the Reeds as spookily self-assured, the show depicts them as earnest and soldiering on despite anxiety; where the books have them driven by loyalty and destiny, the show adds a sense of genuine affection -- the Reeds for each other, Jojen for Bran.

 

On the other hand, this is yet another instance where the show makes a complete hash of one of the sharply constructed character arcs of A Clash of Kings. While it makes sense from to omit the Reeds from season 2 for the sake of economy, it also means that Bran's carefully weighted struggle between his duties as a lord and his destiny as a greenseer gets thrown way off balance. Instead of Bran being torn between the mentorship of Maester Luwin and the influence of the Reeds, he just weighs some vague dreams that no one can explain to him against assurances from Master Luwin that are rendered moot when the old man dies. And then when the Reeds do show up, Bran's embrace of his mystical side has become such a foregone conclusion that there's not much left for them to accomplish; Jojen just has to show Bran how to embrace the mystic, which is much less interesting than his book goal of helping Bran decide whether to embrace it.

 

But I'm also glad that the show makes the appropriate adjustments to the characters to account for the revisions in the storyline. I was expecting the producers to shoehorn in a "Bran has a crush on Meera" thread to match the one in the books, despite the fact that the television version of the story has eliminated the need for it. Because book!Bran meets the Reeds much earlier in his emotional journey, before he has accepted his destiny, Meera functions as sort of the gateway between Bran and Jojen; she's the less creepily mystical sibling who can attract Bran's interest before he's ready to consider what Jojen has to offer him. In the show, there's no need for Meera to serve as the intermediary, because Bran is eager to accept Jojen's help as soon as he shows up.

 

So . . . the show actually seems -- to me, at least -- to dance around the notion that Bran has a crush on Jojen instead. Which seems as good a way as any to highlight the deep, mysterious attraction Bran feels toward this mystical destiny he would never have imagined for himself. Better to add some interesting off-book subtext than to retain elements of the book even after they cease to make any sense.

[Haleth]

I didn't have a problem with the writing for the Reeds, mostly because I was so distracted by Jojen.  Hey!  It's the kid from Love Actually.  Look how much he's grown!

[mac123x]

Something has just occurred to me and I think I understand why it is that the Reeds being presented as "Yo, they are EVIL" wouldn't have occurred to any of you, or registered as such.  For all the characters given short shrift, or created,  Osha is the only character who has an expanded role that isn't a composite.  She's a much, much bigger and more layered character in the series than in the book.   The essential bones of the characterization are there in the book, but the Show did the opposite of what they did with Jaime: they made her far more complex.

 

In one of the DVD commentary tracks (S01E08 I think), GRRM stated that he initially thought Natalia Teena was all wrong for the part until he saw her audition video, and that he really likes how the show has expanded her character, to the point where it may influence how he writes the character in future books.

[Eegah]

Going back a bit as I missed when it first came up but can't resist telling this story: I watched the episode with Missandei's big nude scene with a friend who hasn't read the books. And when he audibly gasped and then was pretty clearly lusting after her, I turned to him with the biggest evil grin I could muster and said "She's ten years old in the books. Have fun with that."

[mac123x]

Or is she? I saw one of the more outlandish theories (I don't remember where) that Missandei is actually much older but just looks young. The evidence was:


a) The Waif looks like a child but is actually a 36 year old woman

b) Missandei is too fluent in multiple languages and acts too mature for a 10 year old, even a 10 year old in this universe


I don't buy it myself, I just enjoy reading some of the wilder interpretations people come up with. Also, regardless of whether she's older than her appearance, she still has the appearance of a 10 year old, so I'm glad the Grey Worm / Missandei couple is show only

Edited October 1, 2015 by mac123x

[Lady S.]

My feelings about the television version of the Reeds are fairly complicated. In the books, I like the idea of the Reeds better than the characters themselves. It's such a fascinating template for a noble house, these bog-dwelling hunters who are small and strange and shrewd and wise, and if I could pick any Westerosi house to belong to, it would be House Reed. But in practice I find book!Jojen and book!Meera a bit too ethereal to be that interesting; they're all warning and portent, not real human beings, real children.

Yeah, you've nailed why I don't really care for the book Reeds. "Little Grandfather" could not be a more fitting nickname since I don't believe Jojen ever once acts like a real teenage boy.

[WindyNights]

I think the reason they're so ethereal and wise and don't act like real children is because they're part Children of the Forest.

Edited October 2, 2015 by WindyNights

[Protar]

I think the reason they're so ethereal and wise and don't act like real children is because they're part Children of the Forest.

 

I heard a theory that Jojen is actually Howland, who ages backwards for some reason. No kidding.

[Haleth]

Benjojen Button.  That's a new one.  LOL

[jellyroll2]

I'd heard that theory too. Not about him aging backwards LOL! But at least about him actually being Howland. But I believe the children of the forest theory works better.

[Dev F]

I think the reason they're so ethereal and wise and don't act like real children is because they're part Children of the Forest.

 

Perhaps, but my main problem with the characters isn't that their behavior is improbable but that it's uninteresting. Even if they have an in-story reason for being inhumanly self-possessed, it doesn't make them any more interesting to read. (If anything, attributing their personalities to an inescapable quirk of genetics rather than their personal or family history makes them less interesting as characters, it seems to me.)

[Lady S.]

I think the reason they're so ethereal and wise and don't act like real children is because they're part Children of the Forest.

If they are, it's many generations back since the CotF supposedly haven't been below the wall for centuries. I also don't think that adds anything to the story and magic blood only makes them more annoying. They'd be human hybrids whose only power is acting really weird, they don't actually display any mystical powers that humans don't have, Jojen is just ahead of Bran in understanding the mystic.

So, shimpy, how far are you in Jaime's story? And Arya's? (Queries inspired by the KotLt story, if you don't mind my saying so.)

[Triskan]

I dont have the book on hand so I follow her progress thanks to the list of chapters from the Wiki : 

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chapters

 

Last we heard, she has read Bran 2, so, there's a Davos ahead of her normally ! :)

[stillshimpy]

So, shimpy, how far are you in Jaime's story? And Arya's? (Queries inspired by the KotLt story, if you don't mind my saying so.)

 

Feel free to ask at any time.  The last I saw of Jaime he'd just parted company with his hand and Arya was being dressed as a girl against her will as they prepared to ransom her off to her family.  The Brotherhood is coming off much better in the books, by the way, they were the biggest creeps in the series.   "Welcome to the Brotherhood (without Bankroll or Scruples,) Gendry....you are one of us....our swords are sworn to yours an....hey, is that the jingle of Melisandre's coins I hear?  Sold! One Family Member.  See ya! Wouldn't wanna be ya!"    whereas in the books, they really are just capitalizing on the situation and trying to get her back to her family in one, appropriately garbed, piece....for a profit. 

 I'm sorry, I sometimes get stuck in "mulling this over" mode and after I got through considering the differing views on the Reeds.  I assumed in the books that they are fairly closely related to the children of the forest, so that's why I didn't give much thought to how un-childlike they are.  They seemed, from the first in the book, to have been sent there on a magical mission as guardians for the Starks.  It fits with Bran's arc and I appreciated that this poor kid isn't just sort of left fending for himself, when he's clearly been granted some magical power that will be important, but is otherwise helpless. 

 

So in the series, it deeply -- ten more deeplys for emphasis go here -- bothered me that Bran is a little boy, who is unable to even flee an attacker and yet he's clearly key to something important.  I ended despising Theon for quite a while in the series for that scene in which Rodrik is murdered and Bran -- sounding like the little kid he is -- cries pitifully for Theon to stop.  It all plays out differently in the books, but in the series, Theon is a heinous bully.  I have a pretty deep vein of protective instincts within and so anyone emotionally terrorizing a little kid is going to head up my shit list.  

 

It's really kind of a testament to how good the work is that Alfie Allen has done that I ever got to the "Oh my god, let him at least die now, no one could ever deserve this treatment, make it stop!" and I was there pretty much immediately.  Now it's moved into actually having sympathy for Theon (it's a miracle), but my point would be, because of that streak in my personality Osha was my personal hero.  Because she did what I desperately wanted to do from my couch: get those kids the hell out of there and to somewhere safe.  They'd grown up with Theon, it horrified me on a level I can't even name that he was so cruel to them both.  They'd have trusted him entirely, and I don't forgive him on the basis of "But he was nine when was taken to Winterfell, they weren't his brothers" etc.  they were tiny children who had grown around him.  

 

So I loved the hell out of Osha and she is easily one of my favorite characters to this moment.  So the show introduces the Reeds, biffs the introduction and then has Meera and Jojen treating Osha as if she is below them.   They made weird choices by not having Osha trust the Reeds.   

 

But I love the Book Reeds for all the reasons I loved series Osha.  They are perpetually sticking their necks out...and it's for no personal gain.  It's to honor a promise and because it's the right thing to do.  That they seem magical and wise beyond that is weirdly comforting to me.  They seem like they were sent there as teachers.  I can see merit in the whole "in the series they seem more like flesh and blood creatures" but it is one of the more "this is fantasy" elements that they are practically elfin. 

 

Onwards from there, I hit three chapters Jon's , Dany's and then....gods save me....Sansa's wedding.   Dany's played out the most like the series and it would have been so thrilling if I hadn't known everything that was going to happen.  As it was, it was a little predictable.  Plus, I'm really interested to see how long it takes before Dany finds out who Selmy is and was just mulling over what a great big "Whee!" that must have been in the books.  It's a story that's a little light on delight, so that must have been a great moment for readers. 

 

Jon's chapter....oh boy....so between that and Sansa's I've been spending the morning cleaning and thinking about issues of consent.  For instance, I think Martin sort of deftly deals with the whole Jon deal, although it's not at all unlike poor Sansa facing her wedding night (or Dany in the series for that matter).  There's no true consent there, and it's always kind of treated as a joke in our society -- it usually comes up when some high school teacher has an affair with a male student where the jokes fly about, "Oh yes, that poor lad, having to have a bunch of sex..." usually said with heavy irony.   The idea that sexual consent of a mental variety matters, as well as informed choice and the emotional ability to understand ones choices matters for teenage boys. 

 

So that's this wickedly perilous slope anyway and I was at least a little bit impressed with how Martin dealt with that.  It's sad that Jon really is essentially being raped.  No matter how much "Wheeeeee! Sex is GREAT!" fun he ends up having even in that initial night...he's ashamed of it, he feels like he's breaking a sacred vow and he's only doing it because of another vow he made.  That's not even going anywhere near the ridiculous notion that a fourteen-year-old should ever be allowed (even in a medieval society) to take a lifelong vow of celibacy, because they have NO clue what that really will mean over time.  

Sure, there's the rare person who just doesn't care much about sex with either gender, but vows of lifelong celibacy really need to only be undertaken by those mature enough to make them.   It was really sort of sad and funny at the same time.  Jon doesn't want the break the vow...but sex is actually great stuff and I did get a laugh out of how it was "I only need do it this once, only this one time to prove that I'm not a crow...then back to celibacy I will go...." and after the first four-timer night, by the next time we meet up with them, they've been doing-the-do fifty or so times.   Basically I was at least a little impressed that Martin addresses, without ever directly addressing, how damned unfair it was for Jon to be allowed to take that vow at the ripe old age of fourteen in the first place.  It was a nice way of skirting around the "Okay, so essentially this would be rape....except here's the thing....Jon was never a mature enough person to know what giving up sex for a lifetime would mean, he just associated it all with legitimacy and his own childhood trauma..." ....and i liked that Martin basically worked in a way for Jon to basically forgive Ned his (perceived by Jon) failings of honor. 

 

Then the wedding chapter is just horrible to read from start to finish.  Sansa has always been a character who garnered reactions that didn't seem to be based in things on the screen.  So I remember people in our thread being just furious that Sansa had the unmitigated gall not to kneel down to spare Tyrion embarrassment.  A reaction that, at the time, gave me a giant case of "What the fuckity-fuck-fuck now?  You can't possible be serious?  You're mad that she refused to kneel down for the guy who she is being forced to marry and who will -- she fully knows -- get to rape her later that night?  And she's a a cow because of this?  What the misogynistic hell?" 

And I have to say that after reading the chapter and finding out that it was on purpose and her own determination and specifically because FUCK IT, why spare his feelings when she's being forced to marry him against her own wishes?  I really, really like Sansa one whole hell of a a lot more than I already did.  

 

Because yes, fuck him.  I don't feel sorry for Tyrion.  He actually had a choice and Sansa doesn't.  I know he tells her she can be married off to Lancel instead, but it's a pretend choice:  Choose your Marital Rapist does not represent a real choice or actual consent for anything.   That Tyrion then opts out of raping her because he knows it's rape doesn't win any hero points in my eyes, although I did end up liking Book Tyrion a bit more for not getting anywhere near as blasted drunk as Show Tyrion did.  Show Tyrion was the biggest jackass he could be about it all, whereas Sansa ended up looking like a paragon of dignity comparatively. 

 

Still, yay, Tyrion opts out of consummating the marriage...but since he's the only person in that bed that the story even pretends has the real power of choice....I am somewhat less impressed with that than I might otherwise be.  

 

But I remain confused by that hatred of Sansa in the "She didn't kneel for him! Hate her!" reaction -- which I always kind of assumed had to come from things that weren't on the screen, because....yeah....yeah.  All the stuff I already said....because in the book she then feels bad about embarrassing him and does kneel for him after the initial balking.  She's a thirteen year old girl and it would take an incredibly kind person to give even half a shit about his feelings in that moment at all. 

 

Oh...and EEEEEEEK....on the whole bedding thing.   So groups of men get to strip the bride?  For a moment I remembered "Oh god, the worst wedding night ever...Catelyn and Ned off to do the dour deed for duty....were stripped naked by crowds of the opposite gender before being heaved into a bed naked together?"  then I remembered the one nice thing from the Red Wedding.  Catelyn saying proudly that Ned wouldn't allow a bedding at their wedding. 

 

And then I finally did feel sorry for and like Tyrion for caring enough to spare Sansa that and practically risking his life to do so.  

 

So I made a few notes that I then ended up not thinking much about one was Ygritte being horrified at the thought of someone having sex with a family member and that nice note of dark humor in the story:  Even the wildlings know that you should date outside your gene pool, Westerosis.     

 

Then the other thing was Tile Face (Quaithe) whispering to Dany in the dark.  Just a character that I guess they determined was superfluous and did away with entirely.

Edited October 2, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

Show Tyrion was the biggest jackass he could be about it all, whereas Sansa ended up looking like a paragon of dignity comparatively.

 

In the defense of show!Tyrion I thought the drunkness and jackassness was clearly an act he put on.

 

The "How dare she not kneel to St. Tyrion!?" faction is usually identical with the "Sansa is a dumb bitch, why do I even have to read about her!?" faction in my experience.

Edited October 2, 2015 by ambi76

[Delta1212]

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed by the Brotherhood without Banners on the show. Beric Dondarrion is one of my favorite minor characters in the books.

He's also one pick for the real prophecied savior that Stannis is supposed to be, what with being resurrected by a Red Priest and having his own magic sword that gives off light and heat.

He's probably a red herring (Martin throws in a lot of those for pretty much every prophecy in the series), but I can't pretend I didn't like the theory anyway when it first occurred to me.

In the defense of show!Tyrion I thought the drunkness and jackassness was clearly an act he put on.

The "How dare she not to kneel to St. Tyrion!?" faction is usually identical with the "Sansa is a dumb bitch, why do I even have to read about her!?" faction in my experince.

I didn't think it was an act, although I do think he obviously did it on purpose.

[jellyroll2]

Jon's chapter....oh boy....so between that and Sansa's I've been spending the morning cleaning and thinking about issues of consent.  For instance, I think Martin sort of deftly deals with the whole Jon deal, although it's not at all unlike poor Sansa facing her wedding night (or Dany in the series for that matter).  There's no true consent there, and it's always kind of treated as a joke in our society -- it usually comes up when some high school teacher has an affair with a male student where the jokes fly about, "Oh yes, that poor lad, having to have a bunch of sex..." usually said with heavy irony.   The idea that sexual consent of a mental variety matters, as well as informed choice and the emotional ability to understand ones choices matters for teenage boys. 

 

So that's this wickedly perilous slope anyway and I was at least a little bit impressed with how Martin dealt with that.  It's sad that Jon really is essentially being raped.  No matter how much "Wheeeeee! Sex is GREAT!" fun he ends up having even in that initial night...he's ashamed of it, he feels like he's breaking a sacred vow and he's only doing it because of another vow he made.  That's not even going anywhere near the ridiculous notion that a fourteen-year-old should ever be allowed (even in a medieval society) to take a lifelong vow of celibacy, because they have NO clue what that really will mean over time.  

Sure, there's the rare person who just doesn't care much about sex with either gender, but vows of lifelong celibacy really need to only be undertaken by those mature enough to make them.   It was really sort of sad and funny at the same time.  Jon doesn't want the break the vow...but sex is actually great stuff and I did get a laugh out of how it was "I only need do it this once, only this one time to prove that I'm not a crow...then back to celibacy I will go...." and after the first four-timer night, by the next time we meet up with them, they've been doing-the-do fifty or so times.   Basically I was at least a little impressed that Martin addresses, without ever directly addressing, how damned unfair it was for Jon to be allowed to take that vow at the ripe old age of fourteen in the first place.  It was a nice way of skirting around the "Okay, so essentially this would be rape....except here's the thing....Jon was never a mature enough person to know what giving up sex for a lifetime would mean, he just associated it all with legitimacy and his own childhood trauma..." ....and i liked that Martin basically worked in a way for Jon to basically forgive Ned his (perceived by Jon) failings of honor. 

 

 

As well as it was written, I always had a huge problem with how that first time with them went down and how no one seemed to acknowledge that he had a complete lack of consent, no matter how much he may have enjoyed it after it started. I never really thought about him giving up sex before he really understood what that meant (which was why I loved that the show had Benjen tell him that from the very start as I'm not so sure Benjen knew what it meant when he joined the NW either) and how that was a factor in his decisions afterwards. But the circumstances in which he had to make that decision were one of force, no matter what his vows and options were before that.

 

Surprisingly, I actually love that chapter as I think it's one of the few well written sex scenes GRRM has done (the constant 'you know nothing Jon Snow"s not withstanding) and there's so many underlying things going on in Jon's head. But that first "come fuck me or I'll get you killed" part? Yeah. Not cool.

 

Also, yeah, they mostly cut Quaithe in the show but probably because she's so tied in with prophecies and such and they really cut that part of Dany's storyline out.

Edited October 2, 2015 by jellyroll2

[stillshimpy]

But the circumstances in which he had to make that decision were one of force, no matter what his vows and options were before that.

The part that I thought Martin managed to handle deftly was that he makes it clear -- in the Ygritte's culture and among her people -- consent is not a thing they understand or value. In fact, she thought he was claiming her specifically for sexual reasons when they first met and then started to understand that he didn't know what to do next.

She saves his life by saying, "We have been humping like Wintery Rabbits, okay? I claim him. Mine." so Martin worked out a weird way for freaking Ygritte to be pretty much completely unaware of "yeah, that's not what the whole Yield thing meant, this is how I had sex the first time ....and then someone else broke that guy's arm....but this how my people do it. You take your person by force, and that proves that they are worthy." (which let's not even go into the whole anthropological deals implicit in all of that).

So a work of fiction is held to the standards and understanding of the time in which the author lives, not the time in which it depicts "Oh, there's no way to know that it is rape" Martin has worked in a lot of "Nope, people know what rape is in this world...they may not apply it to martial situations, but they understand consent and lack of it...there are just fucked up notions of duty."

So there's absolutely no rapey intent on Ygritte's part, she's put her life on the line to save his too and basically it's do the deed and have everyone know about it, or they are both dead as liars.

It was a very strange balancing act to pull off. But yes, it is rape for Jon. Even though Ygritte has no context for why.

Then Martin further proves that "No really, I get the issue of consent here and was doing this purposefully" by having Sansa have NO concept that if Tyrion screws her, it's the same as rape....but Tyrion does and actually states "Until you want it, we won't be doing it."

It handled one of the thorny subjects in the whole books series. Jon is aware that he is doing something he doesn't want to do on an ethtical level. It's actually painful and difficult for him to mentally get through it (at first)....but no matter how much "This stuff is GREAT....what cruel gods would let us feel this great and then say we shouldn't have it?" So when he does recommit to celibacy, it will at least be with an understanding of what he is (not) doing.

But yeah, it's sad, because it is rape. It's nice that Jon actually does end up having so much fun with it....but it carries with it an almost old school Catholic level of "Shame! Shame and Scourge! Impurity and Dishonor!"

It is one of the better chapter in the books, because it is rape for Jon, but it manages to not demonize Ygritte (because she really doesn't get the whole deal...she thought he just didn't know what to do after he claimed her....and now she's going to be as dead as he is if doesn't start happening).

It's sad, and funny....and yeah, there's no way of getting around it....it's rape for Jon, even if it leaves him in a situation where he ends up questioning the justice of the stupid vow, more than he ends up feeling ashamed about liking sex.

Edited October 2, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

In the defense of show!Tyrion I thought the drunkness and jackassness was clearly an act he put on.

 

The "How dare she not kneel to St. Tyrion!?" faction is usually identical with the "Sansa is a dumb bitch, why do I even have to read about her!?" faction in my experience.

 

Yea I kind of thought that show Tyrion was using his reputation as a drunk to either get so drunk or act so drunk that no one would expect a bedding.....because no one would be surprised he couldn't on his wedding night.

 

I think one thing to consider about Tyrion and why not raping Sansa makes him such a good guy is that in this society that GRRM has created, Sansa was never going to get a choice in whom she married and Tyrion had little choice himself.  Tywin practically forces it on him and I felt like Tyrion almost said to himself, if I marry her, I can spare her from something worse my father could cook up.

 

But also because men like Ned are considered good and honorable for preventing a bedding.  Jimmeny cricket that sucks and rather it was for his own sake, Sansa's or a combination of the two - GRRM put Tyrion on level with Ned there.

 

Then GRRM took Tyrion one step further when he didn't sleep/rape Sansa.  Because even Ned dutifully consummated his marriage - not for love but because that was what he was expected to do as a husband.  What we see as Tyrion not raping Sansa is from Westerous' point-of-view Tyrion forsaking his husbandly duties.  Sansa likely would have done her duty like her mother did, but Tyrion didn't do his.  So in their world where you can easily justify the rape of a bride as "doing your duty" Tyrion refuses.  While he is no "white hat" in the books, I do think Tyrion did as right by Sansa as he could.

[WindyNights]

@nksarmi There was a bedding ceremony between Ned and Cat. Him preventing it was show-only. It was D&D trying to create some parallel between Saint Tyrion and Ned.

Anyways I give Tyrion no brownie points because he still molested a 12 year old girl, wanted to bone her and almost raped her.

Edited October 3, 2015 by WindyNights

[nksarmi]

@nksarmi There was a bedding ceremony between Ned and Cat. Him preventing it was show-only. It was D&D trying to create some parallel between Saint Tyrion and Ned.

Anyways I give Tyrion no brownie points because he still molested a 12 year old girl, wanted to bone her and almost raped her.

Wow on the Ned front.

 

And I still don't know why we talk about the ages of these people at all - it's just unrealistic to believe Sansa is 12 the way she is described in the books, or that Dany mastered Drogo through sex at 13, etc....

[WindyNights]

It's just in-grained in their culture and Ned and Cat are very much a product of that culture. And to be fair, Cat and Sansa were in completely different circumstances along with being different ages as Cat was 16 and not 12.

14 but you're right Dany's age is unrealistic to me. I like to think Westerosi years are longer than our years so I add one year to everyone's age.

Sansa acts her age though and is described as a 12 year old. Although Sansa is on the verge of being 13 at the point where shimpy is at as she has a late year birthday.

Edited October 3, 2015 by WindyNights

[Lady S.]

 

And I still don't know why we talk about the ages of these people at all - it's just unrealistic to believe Sansa is 12 the way she is described in the books, or that Dany mastered Drogo through sex at 13, etc....

It's only weird to think Sansa is 12 because Sophie is a giantess, I don't know how her PoVs in the first three books come off as anything but a naive child's viewpoint. She definitely doesn't come off as mature and independent as Dany.

 

Shimpy, glad to know you've eased up on Beric and the Brotherhood. I guess it was a consequence of substituting Gendry for Edric and having him sold to Mel that tptb never really bothered showing them as heroic to begin with, it's too hard to reconcile that with selling a member to someone who burns people alive.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

I do think that one can give Tyrion some points for going against what his culture expect of him. His status as an outsider probably makes him more prone to questioning the rules and doing whatever he thinks is right (sometimes for good sometimes not).

However one could also argue that his reluctance is not: "non consensual marital sex is wrong" but rather "this particular situation it would be wrong" because he knows she is not agreeing to this to benefit her family but rather because she would be killed if she didn't. Her family would never have allowed this match, even if the families weren't at war, and I think in their society that makes a difference.

[ambi76]

Yeah, Sansa actually acts her age. I always found Bran the eight year old tree-wizzard/genius the most unbelievable of the Stark lot. But that's just fantasy I guess.

Egg also acts unbelievably mature for a nine year old in the Dunk & Egg series IMHO.

 

Not sure why Tyrion needs any kind of points for his behavior on the wedding night. It's not like he wasn't already the "favorite" Lannister in the story.

Edited October 3, 2015 by ambi76

[Holmbo]

Well, being the favorite Lannister at this point in the story is not that much of an achievement.

Also being favorite character is not necessarily the same as being good. Tyrion is my favorite character because he is a well written complex character and I enjoy how GRRM uses him to explore questions about how identity is shaped and how it influences ones actions.

[John Potts]

Lady S It's only weird to think Sansa is 12 because Sophie is a giantess, I don't know how her PoVs in the first three books come off as anything but a naive child's viewpoint. She definitely doesn't come off as mature and independent as Dany.

 

The weird thing about aging up Sansa is they kept all the "Got your period yet?" (well, "flowered") from the books, because once they're six foot tall, it's a safe bet they're through puberty! 

 

Also, it makes sense for Dany to be more mature (aside from the fact she's canonically older) - rather than a sheltered upbringing at Winterfell, Dany was a refugee and whilst dominated by her brother, he did instil in her the (correct) assumption that people were out to kill them, so she would be unlikely to have such a naive view of the world.

 

I never thought less of Sansa for not kneeling to allow Tyrion to cloak her - even in show it seemed Sansa was basically acting on auto pilot to get through the day and simply wasn't thinking about the practicalities of a dwarf placing is cloak about somebody two feet taller. As for Tyrion not raping Sansa - I do give him credit there: not only did he engineer a situation where no bedding happened, he doesn't go through with it when he realises how much Sansa was dreading the event. Sure, he's perfectly free to screw Shae instead, so it's not as if he's "missing out", but he still was defying his father (and societal expectations) by not doing so. Though the parallel with Jon Snow hadn't struck me, though it is a good example of relative values from the opposite viewpoint.

[nksarmi]

I guess I feel that Sansa could be that naïve and innocent at 16 as well.  And all the talk of well she has her period, she's ready to make babies seems really off to me as well.

[SeanC]

Yea I kind of thought that show Tyrion was using his reputation as a drunk to either get so drunk or act so drunk that no one would expect a bedding.....because no one would be surprised he couldn't on his wedding night.

I think one thing to consider about Tyrion and why not raping Sansa makes him such a good guy is that in this society that GRRM has created, Sansa was never going to get a choice in whom she married and Tyrion had little choice himself. Tywin practically forces it on him and I felt like Tyrion almost said to himself, if I marry her, I can spare her from something worse my father could cook up.

But also because men like Ned are considered good and honorable for preventing a bedding. Jimmeny cricket that sucks and rather it was for his own sake, Sansa's or a combination of the two - GRRM put Tyrion on level with Ned there.

Then GRRM took Tyrion one step further when he didn't sleep/rape Sansa. Because even Ned dutifully consummated his marriage - not for love but because that was what he was expected to do as a husband. What we see as Tyrion not raping Sansa is from Westerous' point-of-view Tyrion forsaking his husbandly duties. Sansa likely would have done her duty like her mother did, but Tyrion didn't do his. So in their world where you can easily justify the rape of a bride as "doing your duty" Tyrion refuses. While he is no "white hat" in the books, I do think Tyrion did as right by Sansa as he could.

The idea that you can compare Ned and Catelyn's marriage and Sansa's is really off-base. The former is a standard arranged marriage where two parties formed an alliance and the bride was perfectly fine with it -- it's not that such arrangements can't go awry (see, e.g., Robert and Cersei), but they aren't intrinsically problematic. Sansa was kidnapped by her family's enemies and is being threatened at sword point, when she quite clearly refuses.

[Mya Stone]

The idea that you can compare Ned and Catelyn's marriage and Sansa's is really off-base. The former is a standard arranged marriage where two parties formed an alliance and the bride was perfectly fine with it -- it's not that such arrangements can't go awry (see, e.g., Robert and Cersei), but they aren't intrinsically problematic. Sansa was kidnapped by her family's enemies and is being threatened at sword point, when she quite clearly refuses.

 

I strongly disagree. Cat had agreed to a marriage to Brandon, not Ned. Circumstances required her to marry Ned, and she "did her duty." I definitely see paralels to the situations, although the degree of extremities differ.

[SeanC]

I strongly disagree. Cat had agreed to a marriage to Brandon, not Ned. Circumstances required her to marry Ned, and she "did her duty." I definitely see paralels to the situations, although the degree of extremities differ.

She agreed to marry Ned too. She didn't think he was hot, unlike Brandon, but duty was why she was fine with Brandon too. Sansa didn't marry Tyrion out of duty, she did it because the people who had killed her father and taken her hostage forced her to. Not remotely the same.

[magdalene]

Having read up-thread that stillshimpy has read Jaime's dehanding I wanted to post how much I enjoyed the sword fight between him and Brienne before they get captured by Vargo Hoat and the Mummers.  I thought that was a beautifully written passage. Besides the fun subtext of Jaime pinking Brienne in the upper thigh, etc. it also really shows what a superb swordsman Jaime is before the loss of his sword hand. This is something the show never accomplished, IMO.

 

I have more to say about Vargo Hoat but I'll wait until later in the narrative.

[Haleth]

I've been reading a biography of Catherine de Medici and, holy moley, her daughter's wedding made the Red Wedding look like a tea party:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre
I was thinking how like Sansa poor Marguerite was... reluctant bride forced to marry a man she did not like, on her knees the night before the wedding begging her family to let her out of it... and then the slaughter began.

Sorry about going off topic.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Haleth

[WindyNights]

To add to that, GRRM said that one of his inspirations for this series was The Accursed Kings by Maurice Druon. Read the first book and there's a part where he gets attacked by a stag during a hunt and then shortly afterwards dies (although not due to the stag but It did help) and then his stupid cruel son inherits. Reminded me of King Robert

[Lady S.]

Having read up-thread that stillshimpy has read Jaime's dehanding I wanted to post how much I enjoyed the sword fight between him and Brienne before they get captured by Vargo Hoat and the Mummers.  I thought that was a beautifully written passage. Besides the fun subtext of Jaime pinking Brienne in the upper thigh, etc. it also really shows what a superb swordsman Jaime is before the loss of his sword hand. This is something the show never accomplished, IMO.

 

I have more to say about Vargo Hoat but I'll wait until later in the narrative.

Oh, yeah, it bugs me that the show not only had Bri defeat him easily, but the next ep presents the idea that this meant he was never that great to begin with. I said in the re-read thread that when the show inserted the Jaime/Ned sword fight, I wish they hadn't made it such an even match. Book Ned wasn't any badass swordfighter. By contrast, Brienne beating Sandor actually meant something, because there was no question he was a badass. With tv Jaime his deadliness in a sword fight is at best an informed ability, even though his swordfighting prowess is a big part of why losing the hand is such a big deal for him. (But the effects of the behanding are in later chapters, so I'll stop there if the behanding itself is all shimpy's gotten to yet.) Edited October 4, 2015 by Lady S.

[Silje]

I think one thing to consider about Tyrion and why not raping Sansa makes him such a good guy is that in this society that GRRM has created, Sansa was never going to get a choice in whom she married and Tyrion had little choice himself.  Tywin practically forces it on him and I felt like Tyrion almost said to himself, if I marry her, I can spare her from something worse my father could cook up.

 

Tyrion had a choice about the marriage. He agreed to marry Sansa for her claim and because he felt entitled to a beautiful bride. Sansa was told she could either be dragged by the kingsguard to the alter or walk herself. If Tyrion wanted to protect Sansa he would've said no to the marriage and let Lancel marry her. Tyrion is actually the only Lannister groom who poses a threat to Sansa at that point, since he could and intended to rape her until he changed his mind. And just because he didn't go through with the rape doesn't change what happened right before. He told the 12 year old hostage to get undressed and then groped her. I feel that is often forgotten/overlooked or seen as no big deal because "Tyrion was a nice guy and didn't actually rape her".  

 

Then the wedding chapter is just horrible to read from start to finish.  Sansa has always been a character who garnered reactions that didn't seem to be based in things on the screen.  So I remember people in our thread being just furious that Sansa had the unmitigated gall not to kneel down to spare Tyrion embarrassment.  A reaction that, at the time, gave me a giant case of "What the fuckity-fuck-fuck now?  You can't possible be serious?  You're mad that she refused to kneel down for the guy who she is being forced to marry and who will -- she fully knows -- get to rape her later that night?  And she's a a cow because of this?  What the misogynistic hell?" 

 

I wish I was kidding but on another forum there is a thread asking if people forgive Sansa for her behavior towards Tyrion. For not kneeling, for asking if he wanted to dance at the wedding feast (!) and for not being nice enough (read: not opening her legs for nice guy Tyrion) etc.

[Delta1212]

Well, passing so Lancel can marry her is just letting Lancel rape her (unless she wants to marry Lancel, although I'd think she's rather not marry any Lannister). Marrying her himself and not raping her would probably be the best protection he could offer, especially since a non-consummated marriage could be presumably be annulled if her circumstances change.

Not, of course, that any of this is given as his motivation for doing it.

[Silje]

Tyrion is told that Lancel isn't strong enough to consummate the marriage. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Silje

[nodorothyparker]

In the chapter where Tyrion is first informed of the plan to marry Sansa to a Lannister and Lancel is offered as an alternative if Tyrion refuses, Lancel is still recovering from his serious wounding at the Blackwater.  His father, Kevan, says while he would be able to say the vows he's nowhere near well enough to consummate the marriage.  So it's implied that wouldn't be happening any time soon if he becomes the lucky bridegroom.

Of course as we find out in Feast for Crows, he becomes a religious zealot during his recovery and won't consummate any marriage made for him, but that's not something they could know at the time.

[nksarmi]

I really don't see how in the world (other than he is more handsome) Lancel is a better option for Sansa.   I mean, someone help me out here, he is already screwing Cersei at this point is he not?  Doesn't Tyrion know that?

 

Regardless of consummation, I can't imagine being tied to Lancel who is complicate in Robert's murder and Cersei's ex lover is a better option for Sansa.  I mean Tyrion wasn't making this decision knowing Sansa was planning her escape and I think he knew of Joffrey's threats to Sansa as well. If Sansa married Lancel she might have been raped on her wedding night by Joffrey instead.

 

I'm not saying Tyrion married Sansa entirely out of mercy, but damn, he didn't wrong her either and he was likely her best option once the plan to marry her to Highgarden failed.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nksarmi

[nodorothyparker]

The reality is that there were no good options for Sansa at this point.  Somebody was going to marry her for her claim to Winterfell and consequently expect consummation of that marriage, whether it be a Tyrell or a Lannister.  The Tyrell plan was better in the sense that it would have gotten her out of Kings Landing and away from the family that had killed several members of hers, and she would have been doing it out of duty rather than basically at swordpoint.  But once the Tyrell plot was found out, that clearly wasn't going to happen. 

 

Tyrion is obviously enticed by the idea of having the North/Winterfell after Tywin has made it clear any hopes of Casterly Rock are never going to happen.  He also thinks he might as well have a beautiful young wife as Tywin tells him he is going to marry somebody and throws out Lollys as a possible less attractive example.  Because he's used to noble marriages being arranged with seemingly little consideration for the individual feelings of the participants, I don't think Tyrion is really giving Sansa or her situation all that much thought at all beyond assuming she'll buck up and do her duty when the time comes because that's what noble brides do until he's actually in the situation and sees with his own eyes how distasteful the whole thing is for her.  I can find Tyrion quite gray in this and in a lot of the things he does and still not find him a complete villain here.

Edited October 4, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[John Potts]

In terms of marital rape, I think we really do have to accept that a certain degree of "Relative Values" exist in Westeros: it's pretty clear that there is a "Marital Rape License" given

the protests to Ramsay Bolton's treatment of Jeyne Westerling (or Sansa in the show) amount to "we don't deny your right to rape your wife, but do you think you could tone down the torture? The screams are keeping everyone awake."

, so blaming Tyrion for only calling a halt once Sansa was naked (and he'd arranged for THAT to take place in private, against societal expectations) is to condemn him for not being a 20th century Westerner.* I think that's pretty damn admirable in it's own right, even if from our POV, he's only doing what's expected of ANY man (you'd hope).

 

* And that it was even possible for a husband to rape his wife was only legally established in the UK in the 1980s (although he might well be done for battery prior to that) - I can't speak for anywhere else.

[WindyNights]

I'm not going to judge people by Westerosi standards. I'm going to judge them by my standards and ultimately Tyrion did molest Sansa and had intent to rape her.

[Lady S.]

The reality is that there were no good options for Sansa at this point.  Somebody was going to marry her for her claim to Winterfell and consequently expect consummation of that marriage, whether it be a Tyrell or a Lannister.  The Tyrell plan was better in the sense that it would have gotten her out of Kings Landing and away from the family that had killed several members of hers, and she would have been doing it out of duty rather than basically at swordpoint.  But once the Tyrell plot was found out, that clearly wasn't going to happen.

Yeah, the only less bad option there was the Tyrell marriage, just because it would get her away from King's Landing, which is the only way she could really be safe from Joffrey. (And Sansa was at least making peace with the idea of Willas, so the consummation would not have been so traumatic, and while the Tyrells were looking to profit from the fall of House Stark, they had no direct role in any of those murders.) Tyrion couldn't even protect himself from Joffrey, publicly threatening Joff repeatedly was not a viable long term plan, but it was the only option he had. And Tywin would have never let them leave King's Landing while Tyrion was still refusing to rape her, because Tywin hates being defied. I think one could argue that Tyrion believed he had little choice in the marriage because he was conditioned into following Tywin's orders by years of abuse, but that only reinforces the point that he had limited power to really protect Sansa from the rest of his family because all his power came from Tywin. It's Tywin who settles the matter of the bedding ceremony, Tyrion's threat to geld Joffrey would have only caused more trouble without Tywin to smooth things over. But as long as Tywin was alive I can't see any good in any Lannister match for Sansa since he had no real regard for her well being at all, and did have some role in engineering Robb's death. Even if she got to return to Winterfell with a son by Tyrion, the homecoming would be tainted as another victory for Tywin.

[nksarmi]

Lady S., I think all you said is true.  I just believe that once Willas was off the table, the least bad option was in fact Tyrion.  And given all the befalls both of them following Joffrey's death, it's almost a shame they couldn't work more together since some properly planned lies might have saved them both. Of course, it could have condemned them both as well, but I must say that I would have enjoyed watching/reading an alternative universe where somehow Sansa and Tyrion both get off the hook for Joffrey's death (the only believable way I can come up with is throwing Shae under the bus, which Tyrion would not have liked, but Jamie probably would have helped with that so it might have worked).  Then as a couple they navigate KL and befriend Tommen and attempt to survive the rise of the Faith Militant (assuming that would have ever happened if Tywin had lived).

[Hecate7]

Actually he has called Jon his son before.

He doesn't really often refer to Jon as his blood and not his son. I think that only happens once in convo with Cat.

 

When? I can't remember him ever doing that.