Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[nksarmi]

Let me just have a moment of happy dance, happy dance - shirpy now knows that Jon's a warg too.  I hate how the show has discounted this to date.  If people realized he was a warg like Bran and having prophetic dreams, they might understand half the reason we expect him to rise from the dead.

[Haleth]

The World of Ice and Fire book spells out the order of events pretty linearly.  I don't know how canonical that book is, but in that timeline, Rhaegar died before Elia. 

 

I think the "Jon isn't a bastard because R&L were actually married" theory is premised on Rhaegar being a bigamist like Aegon the Conqueror.  In my opinion that doesn't make a great precedent.  Aegon was already married to both his wives before he landed in Westeros, and everyone sort of accepted it afterwards because, well, dragons.

That's my take too.  I seemed unlikely that Rhaegar would have had time to run off to the Tower of Joy for a quickie wedding after Elia died.  It makes more sense that he'd claim the right to have two wives, because, well, history of dragons.

[jellyroll2]

Hi all! Decided to delurk and get in on this conversation because I love it and its fascinating. Been reading the Unsullied and now this thread for ages but am finally mustering up the courage to throw my feet into the dark strange climb over the Wall.

 

Just needed to touch on the "why some people think Jon's legit" talk. A big part of it for me, and for many I think, is those three KG at the Tower of Joy. The timeline, as I recall it being:

 

Rhaegar dies at the Trident

Aerys, Elia and her kids all die in the Sack (possibly on the same day)

Ned argues with Robert B about the dead Targ kids

Ned ends the siege at Storm's End

Ned goes to the Tower of Joy where Lyanna dies

 

So Rhaegar (crown prince) dead first, Aerys (king) dead and Aegon (son of crown prince) then dead. So the king, his heir and his heir's heir are now all dead. Which should leave Viserys as the king, now on Dragonstone with his pregnant mother. However these three KG, who everyone and their mother, including Ned, talk about being probably the "greatest KG and knights ever!!!!111!!1" are at the TOJ, guarding a woman giving birth to a Targ bastard? The KG? Who's primary duty is to protect the king first and foremost? Who know Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead? Who know Viserys is alone on DS with no KG to protect him? Who know the other KG members are dead or on the verge of death or Jamie, who killed the last king. I'm sure they didn't know the next day after these things happened but they knew before Ned got there. Why are all three still there? These three great knights who know their vows and know their duty and know Viserys is unguarded. To guard a bastard? All of them?  

 

So a lot of R+L believers figure Rhaegar just decided to stand on precedent and took a second wife because Targs. LOL

 

On another note, so glad shimpy knows Jon is a warg now! So annoyed they've left that out of the show! Right along with the strong bond the Starks have with their wolves. It's just as strong as Dany has with her dragons.

Edited August 26, 2015 by jellyroll2

[Autarch]

GRRM is a massive troll.

"He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?"  -- when Jon's contemplating killing Ygritte. 

 

Of course, Jon doesn't go through with it. One of the more obvious bits where it seems George is messing with a part of his fandom.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, that's right....I only read part of that link, before "present day" things.  I have a such a hard time remembering that show Robert and book Robert were, if not wildly different, then certainly my perception of Robert is usually colored by my affection for Mark Addy.  So I forgot about the whole "black rage" and seeing dead dragonspawn, which still isn't quite the "laughed at their broken bodies" but...it's pretty freaking bad.  

 

So the only way for Jon to be a legitimate heir, if he's Rhaeagar and Lyanna's son is if he's a bigamist and that link indicated that Lyanna was kidnapped and her poor father and brother were killed trying to get her back. <--- that's always going to be my "If Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly then, to put it mildly, she's a problematic character because once your father and brother are being killed by your lover's family....you leave that guy unless you're a captive.  

 

Also, it would be beyond horrible to be Ned and find her in ye olde Tower of Joy (in the House of Mirth of way is that place the tower of joy)...and find out "Oh by the way, Ned, sorry for all the bother...but we were in love and...."  because....oh wow, ew.  You know, I had pretty tragic taste in guys as a teenager.  Not truly dangerous, just couldn't recognize a sexist jerk, thought body builders were super cute and dated a bouncer....I literally dated a guy whose job it was to physically hurl people out of a bar....and then was surprised when he turned out to be a jerk.  

 

So most people go through that learning curve on relationships, but once your taste in romantic partners is getting multiple people you love killed and setting a country to war?  You leave that guy, even if you're knocked up and you've made the mistake of think polygamy sounded swell, because Dragons the Soul of a Poet with the Bod of a Warrior or whatever else thing could totally lure in a sixteen year old girl, particularly willful one.  

 

On the series leaving out that Jon is a Warg....I just ....can't...even.   I know, I truly do know, that I tend go on about not liking Jon in the series and I called him Jon Snore and I had kind of lot of company in that, but they removed every kind of neat thing about him.  Made him really whiny that first year and then the story at the Wall is stultifying.  I swear I think they spent three episodes at Craster's contemplating, "Wow, this guy has a truly troubling relationship status and parenting practices" for....a really long time.  Sam mostly existed to Fall On His Face whenever asked to do anything even remotely helpful or useful.  

 

I submit to you that my dislike of The Wall story is only about half my digging in on the Neo-nation of Jon in a mulish fashion and equal parts, "No really, he's a boring character....and now he has a really annoying girlfriend ...oh goody...the Ginger Version of Grizzly Adams is giving him sex tips.  Gods save us all."  

 

 

 

You have no idea (well, now I suppose you do) how ticked about the show's portrayal of the Halfhand many people were. He did kind of go from "wise, badass mentor" to "some guy who screwed up by leaving Jon alone with Ygritte for no apparent reason and then got captured immediately after."

and yes, learning that it was largely unnecessary on top of all else, is a little frustrating [/rare restraint and use of understatement]

 

ETA:  Hi jellyroll, welcome to the party ;-)  Advil? 

Edited August 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[magdalene]

I have always thought that Jon may not be a Targ bastard because both on the Targ side and on Elia's side it was acceptable to have more than one wife at the same time.  So, Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love and he took her as an additional wife maybe? And poor Elia had to put up with it.

 

To me they both come across as self-indulgent shits who cause all this tragedy and blood shed because "their epic luvvvv cannot be denied". Bleh.

Edited August 26, 2015 by magdalene

[nksarmi]

I have always thought that Jon may not be a Targ bastard because both on the Targ side and on Elia's side it was acceptable to have more than one wife at the same time.  So, Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love and he took her as an additional wife maybe? And poor Elia had to put up with it.

 

To me they both come across as self-indulgent shits who cause all this tragedy and blood shed because "their epic luvvvv cannot be denied". Bleh.

So much of their story seems tragic until you read a description of events that includes things like "Robert's rebellion lasted about a year."  I mean holy, moly people - did you not think well crap, Brandon's gone and gotten himself arrested and the fathers have been summoned to KL - maybe we should hurry up and go try to diffuse the situation.  Or holy shit, daddy Stark and oldest brother Stark are dead and King Targ is calling for the head's of Ned and Robert B - maybe we should go reign this shit in?  Or holy cow, war has broken out over this - might be time to go be Crown Prince and make some peace out of this situation for f*ck's sake,

 

But no, apparently we are hanging out in Dorne (WTF?) as far away from the war as possible, shaking up in a place we call the Tower of Joy while Westerous is being torn asunder.  Yeah ok, poor Jon - his parents totally suck.

[DigitalCount]

In the version of this book/show that only exists in my head, Lyanna is played by Nina Dobrev.

[Lady S.]

I have always thought that Jon may not be a Targ bastard because both on the Targ side and on Elia's side it was acceptable to have more than one wife at the same time.  So, Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love and he took her as an additional wife maybe? And poor Elia had to put up with it.

 

To me they both come across as self-indulgent shits who cause all this tragedy and blood shed because "their epic luvvvv cannot be denied". Bleh.

Eh, I think Dorne is more open adultery/free love than bigamy. Paramours are just unwed lovers with a respectable name. Plenty of people in the rest of Westeros have lovers they aren't married to, they just can't be as upfront about it. Like how Renly and Loras's relationship was pretty much an open secret in court circles without their being able to openly acknowledge it, but they likely would have had an easier time with that if they were Dornish. Taking a second spouse who might produce competing heirs is a much bigger deal than being married and having some action on the side. Dorne may not be so hung up on propriety about sex, but there's nothing to say they don't care about marriage alliances and smooth successions just like the rest of Westeros. And I'll stop now because this isn't really relevant to shimpy (I got it right this time, didn't I) until Oberyn comes on the scene.

 

 

So the only way for Jon to be a legitimate heir, if he's Rhaeagar and Lyanna's son is if he's a bigamist and that link indicated that Lyanna was kidnapped and her poor father and brother were killed trying to get her back. <--- that's always going to be my "If Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly then, to put it mildly, she's a problematic character because once your father and brother are being killed by your lover's family....you leave that guy unless you're a captive.  

 

 

That unless is what I cling to, Lyanna could have gone with Rhaegar willingly and then found herself in over her head and trapped in the tower. By the time of Ned's ToJ showdown, I certainly don't think she wanted to stay in there. I doubt she wanted the guards to fight to the death to keep Ned out, killing most of his men and almost killing him too. And even before she went into labor, she was all alone in the middle of nowhere with no friends or transport of her own. Even if the door was unlocked and the Kingsguard didn't try to stop her, traveling alone and pregnant through the desert does not seem like an easy journey. So with no reason to assume Lyanna just didn't ever want to leave because she loved Rhaegar more than her own family, I prefer to put more of the blame on the 24yo married crown prince than on the 15/16yo girl he took up with. Maybe Rhaegar chose not to fill her in on her father and brother's deaths whenever he finally learned what had happened, or maybe he did and just wouldn't let her go because she was carrying his child by then. Either possibility makes more sense to me than Rhaegar and Lyanna's great love being so all important. I can't really see them as a romance to root for since Brandon and Rickard, and Elia and her kids all died terribly as an indirect result of their hook-up. (Do you have thoughts on the Rhaegar and Elia vision in the House of the Undying, btw?)

[glowbug]

First of all, I'm so happy to find out I'm not alone in disliking Ygritte. I haven't been part of the GoT/ASoIaF community online so maybe this is a common sentiment but among the few people I know in person that watch the show she's regarded favorably. It's too bad because I also liked the actress from her Downton Abbey days.

 

I don't think the vision of Rhaegar and the child in the house of the undying is Jon since he names him Aegon (his other son's name) and Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born. It could be symbolic but I don't think so. The vision shows us that Rhaegar believed at Aegon's birth that he was the Prince that was Promised

(which also tells us he gave up on the idea that he was the the Prince that was Promised)

. Whether he believed this by the time of his death, we don't know.

 

I would like to learn more about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's all very vague. At the tournament he named her the queen of love and beauty but we know nothing about what led up to that and what happened afterwards.

Was there some sort of meeting between the two which caused him to give her the winter rose crown or did he figure out that the Prince that was Promised would be the son of a Targaryen and Stark (fire and ice) and decide to seduce her? (I'm choosing not to believe that it was some soulmate/love at first sight BS because that would really piss me off.) That could explain why the King's Guard were protecting pregnant Lyanna (either because Rhaegar insisted or because they also bought into Rhaegar's theories) and not the King or heirs to the throne. Or it could be because Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and they were protecting the heir to the throne as has been speculated.

 

I'm 50/50 on whether or not Jon is a bastard. There's no reason to believe Rhaegar married Lyanna in terms of the story but GRRM did leave open the possibility by establishing that the Targaryens historically had multiple wives. I guess it depends on if Rhaegar had a motive to do so or not. If

he thought that a son of his and Lyanna's would be the Prince that was Promised he might want to legitimize him, or maybe

he thought the third dragon head should be legitimate, or Lyanna could have refused to be his mistress (like Anne Boleyn and Henry VIII only instead of taking years to divorce/annul his first marriage Rhaegar could have taken a second wife using his family's history as a justification), or he might have wanted to preserve his true love's honor or whatever. But all of this is total speculation and until GRRM actually hints or outright tells/shows us that Rhaegar married Lyanna then I'll go with the assumption that Jon his still a Snow and not a Targaryen.

Edited August 27, 2015 by glowbug

[Delta1212]

Ok, I know the spoiler line has gotten a little blurry as regards some of the backstory, but the below thoughts on Rhaegar are definitely not for shimpy eyes:

Ok, so we know that Rhaegar was a bit prophecy obsessed. I'd be inclined to say he was very foolish about it, although if Jon does turn out to be TPwwP, or even just one of the three heads of the dragon, then he was kind of right and may have actually saved the world. I think judgement of his actions does hinge somewhat on why he was so convinced about the prophecy. If it was just "I (or later my son) should be the chosen one because that would be awesome" then the guy is clearly a dick even if he was right. If he had something really concrete, I could see him going to great lengths to do something he thought was absolutely necessary.

Anyway, he says that the dragon needs three heads, which he at least believes means that he needs to have three children. It seems that Elia was unlikely to be able to successfully bear a third child, so the only way that he could father the third head would be with another woman. I think some of this depends on how onboard Elia was with the whole prophecy thing. If she was a true believer/really supportive, I could see a situation where she encouraged him to find someone as, essentially, a surrogate for the last child he needed.

If she thought he was looney tunes, or only humored her husband's obsession at best, I could see her being less pleased. At this point, I don't think we know.

Regardless, for Rhaegar, I don't think this was entirely a about "true love" and I think there is every possibility that both he and Elia could have gone to lengths they otherwise wouldn't have because of that. How well Rhaegar ultimately comes across in all this, though, I think depends on what his very firm belief in the prophecy and its relevance to him personally was based on, how supportive Elia was of his mission and the actions he needed to undertake to accomplish it, and how much he told Lyanna Stark and whether she was an informed and willing participant or was just being used because she thought the crown prince was romantic and hot.

[Eegah]

For a while now, I've just thought it would be absolutely hilarious if Jon really was just the product of Ned's random tryst, and Martin didn't expect anyone to think anything more about it, but once it started he decided to go along with it just to screw with us.

[nksarmi]

For a while now, I've just thought it would be absolutely hilarious if Jon really was just the product of Ned's random tryst, and Martin didn't expect anyone to think anything more about it, but once it started he decided to go along with it just to screw with us.

 

I think it's pretty obvious from the start that Lyanna died in childbirth and since a) Ned never talks about the mother of his bastard, b) everyone says it's not like Ned to father a bastard, c) there are no hints that Lyanna's baby died, and d) Ned is obsessed with the promise he made his sister/her dying moments in his POV chapters before he died that we can conclude that Jon is Lyanna's child.  The rest just follows logically from there.  I think this was VERY intentional on GRRM's part.

 

Plus the show has been pretty heavy on the anvils lately....

 

-Stannis reminding us yet again that it wasn't like Ned Stark to father a bastard.

-The debate about if Jon was just like his father or not.

- Maestar Aemon going on about what a tragic thing is was for Dany to be the last Targ all alone in the world.  I half expected them to have Aemon touch Jon's face and remark about how very much his facial features seem to resemble his nephew Rhaegar's or something like that (which really wouldn't make sense since Ayra and Jon are supposed to be the two children who got the "Stark" look - but I don't know if the show has kept that concept).

-There was practically a large blinking neon sign over Jon's head that read "He's special, he's the one, he could save them all" when he fought the White Walkers at Hardhome.

- And hell Sam practically winked at us and said "I wouldn't worry about Jon - he always comes back" just like two episodes before they killed him. 

 

I have a hard time believing that Jon is anything other than who we think he is and that it was anything other than intentional right from the word go.

 

There are other characters in books that shimpy hasn't gotten to yet - so we can't discuss them - that I have NO idea where GRRM is going with their stories, but I think Jon is one character who had a clear path right from the start (maybe that's why some people think he's boring - because his story is so predictable). 

Edited August 27, 2015 by nksarmi

[Delta1212]

I do think it's entirely possible that Jon Dies at the End. (Him or Dany, anyway. As many people as want to see them married and on the Iron Throne, I think it's more likely that one or both of them winds up dead in the final battle).

I think I'll like it more if Jon's "heir" status ultimately doesn't become entirely relevant. He has another potential role to play besides hidden future king (admittedly, hidden prophecied savior, so basically he'd be Harry Potter instead of King Arthur) but I feel there are more interesting character possibilities if his backstory is more about setting him up for a pivotal role in the battle against the White Walkers than if it's setting him up to be the eventual king.

Plus, that doesn't require some weirdness with secret marriages and bigamy to make him legitimate because I don't think the legalities of inheritance would be as relevant in that case.

[glowbug]

Ok, I know the spoiler line has gotten a little blurry as regards some of the backstory, but the below thoughts on Rhaegar are definitely not for shimpy eyes:

Ok, so we know that Rhaegar was a bit prophecy obsessed. I'd be inclined to say he was very foolish about it, although if Jon does turn out to be TPwwP, or even just one of the three heads of the dragon, then he was kind of right and may have actually saved the world. I think judgement of his actions does hinge somewhat on why he was so convinced about the prophecy. If it was just "I (or later my son) should be the chosen one because that would be awesome" then the guy is clearly a dick even if he was right. If he had something really concrete, I could see him going to great lengths to do something he thought was absolutely necessary.

Anyway, he says that the dragon needs three heads, which he at least believes means that he needs to have three children. It seems that Elia was unlikely to be able to successfully bear a third child, so the only way that he could father the third head would be with another woman. I think some of this depends on how onboard Elia was with the whole prophecy thing. If she was a true believer/really supportive, I could see a situation where she encouraged him to find someone as, essentially, a surrogate for the last child he needed.

If she thought he was looney tunes, or only humored her husband's obsession at best, I could see her being less pleased. At this point, I don't think we know.

Regardless, for Rhaegar, I don't think this was entirely a about "true love" and I think there is every possibility that both he and Elia could have gone to lengths they otherwise wouldn't have because of that. How well Rhaegar ultimately comes across in all this, though, I think depends on what his very firm belief in the prophecy and its relevance to him personally was based on, how supportive Elia was of his mission and the actions he needed to undertake to accomplish it, and how much he told Lyanna Stark and whether she was an informed and willing participant or was just being used because she thought the crown prince was romantic and hot.

 

You're right about the murky spoiler territory. I've gone back an spoiler tagged what I think might be a little bit spoilerish.

 

Also, about your spoiler section, I completely agree with everything. These are things I've speculated about as well. 

I think the biggest thing that makes me question whether Elia was in on it is that there's no real indication that her surviving family is majorly pissed off about what Rhaegar did. I believe there may have been a few comments here and there from the sand snakes maybe but nothing concrete.  Then again Prince Doran likes to keep things close to the chest.

[mac123x]

I would like to learn more about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's all very vague. At the tournament he named her the queen of love and beauty but we know nothing about what led up to that and what happened afterwards. Was there some sort of meeting between the two which caused him to give her the winter rose crown or did he figure out that the Prince that was Promised would be the son of a Targaryen and Stark (fire and ice) and decide to seduce her?

 

Spoiler tagging since Shimpy is still in Book 2:

 

One of the theories around the Knight of the Laughing Tree is that "he" was actually Lyanna,  Arys had ordered Rhaegar to find and unmask this mystery knight, but no one was able to figure out who it was.  The theory is that Rhaegar succeeded, discovered that it was Lyanna and that was how they met.

 

I have a hard time believing R&L were in love, considering how little they interacted before he dropped the tournament laurels in her lap.  Maybe there was more to the "dragon has three heads" prophecy that led him to believe "aha!  she fits criteria X Y and Z of the prophecy, so she must be the mother of my third child!" 

 

I have a very hard time parsing Lyanna's motive for going along with this.

[jellyroll2]

First of all, I'm so happy to find out I'm not alone in disliking Ygritte. I haven't been part of the GoT/ASoIaF community online so maybe this is a common sentiment but among the few people I know in person that watch the show she's regarded favorably. It's too bad because I also liked the actress from her Downton Abbey days.

 

I don't think the vision of Rhaegar and the child in the house of the undying is Jon since he names him Aegon (his other son's name) and Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born. It could be symbolic but I don't think so. The vision shows us that Rhaegar believed at Aegon's birth that he was the Prince that was Promised

(which also tells us he gave up on the idea that he was the the Prince that was Promised)

. Whether he believed this by the time of his death, we don't know.

 

I would like to learn more about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's all very vague. At the tournament he named her the queen of love and beauty but we know nothing about what led up to that and what happened afterwards.

Was there some sort of meeting between the two which caused him to give her the winter rose crown or did he figure out that the Prince that was Promised would be the son of a Targaryen and Stark (fire and ice) and decide to seduce her? (I'm choosing not to believe that it was some soulmate/love at first sight BS because that would really piss me off.) That could explain why the King's Guard were protecting pregnant Lyanna (either because Rhaegar insisted or because they also bought into Rhaegar's theories) and not the King or heirs to the throne. Or it could be because Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and they were protecting the heir to the throne as has been speculated.

 

I'm 50/50 on whether or not Jon is a bastard. There's no reason to believe Rhaegar married Lyanna in terms of the story but GRRM did leave open the possibility by establishing that the Targaryens historically had multiple wives. I guess it depends on if Rhaegar had a motive to do so or not. If

he thought that a son of his and Lyanna's would be the Prince that was Promised he might want to legitimize him, or maybe

he thought the third dragon head should be legitimate, or Lyanna could have refused to be his mistress (like Anne Boleyn and Henry VIII only instead of taking years to divorce/annul his first marriage Rhaegar could have taken a second wife using his family's history as a justification), or he might have wanted to preserve his true love's honor or whatever. But all of this is total speculation and until GRRM actually hints or outright tells/shows us that Rhaegar married Lyanna then I'll go with the assumption that Jon his still a Snow and not a Targaryen.

 

Yeah, as much as I love Rose Leslie, Ygritte bugged the hell out of me. In the show and in the books. I think Rose portrayed her correctly which is basically why she was annoying in the show - she was just as bad (if not worse) in the book.

Her initial hook-up with Jon is so problematic. While Jon got into the sex (boy did he ever) later on, that first hook-up? Totally non-consensual. She pretty much threatened his life if he didn't screw her. I do think they genuinely loved each other, in the way teenage first love is always sweet and all that crap, but goddamn she irked me.

 

As for Rhaegar & Lyanna

didn't he discover that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harenhal? From the story the Reeds told Bran in SoS? I think that's how they met, which was the day before he awarded her the QoLB.

 

I don't buy the "our love is completely EPIC and the world can burn for all we care" nonsense. Because who the hell does that? Everything is so vague and we don't know the full story but they both come off as the worst possible people ever, which they very well may be. I do tend to blame the 24 year old married father of 2 more than the 16 year old virgin. And we don't know who knew what and when but come on. Very possible neither realized it would get so out of control but they both knew a) Brandon was a hothead and b) Aerys was nuts. They may not have expected all out wars and executions but y'all had to know that would not go over well. We don't know anyone's reasons and Rhaegar at the very least, if not Lyanna and Elia who also may have, thought it was for the greater good. And we don't know if in the end it will have been. But man talk about questioning if the ends justify the means. 

 

At the end of everything, I don't think Jon's legitimacy or lack thereof will make a difference. It'll be very Queen Elizabeth I - some people will believe he's legit (IF R+L were married), some won't. If Jon does become king and that's a HUGE if, I doubt it'll have anything to do with birthright. I also think it'll be the worst possible thing that could happen to him (other than, you know, death). He'd hate it and be completely miserable. Especially if he does end up marrying Dany (barf). Some may view that as a Disney ending though I personally think if they do get together at the end, it will be for anything but love. Doubt they'll love each other. I'm not even sure they'll like each other much.

[jellyroll2]

ETA:  Hi jellyroll, welcome to the party ;-)  Advil? 

 

Thanks for the welcome! No Advil from you all, only from the twists and turns of this damn story. LOL

[nksarmi]

Regarding Dany and Jon ending up together - I liked the idea at one point, but after getting to know Dany more - I think they would be a horrible match.  She seems more likely to fall for a Brom or Jamie type of character - heck, she'd be happier with Tyrion but she seems to value looks.  Jon is far too serious and noble for her - he's the kind of guy she'd admire, and she might even love the idea of him, but I don't think he'd made her happy at all.

 

As for Jon, he'd be completely dedicated to Dany and frankly, if they were just two young fools, he might even fall head over heels for her because he would love the wildness in her (like he did Ygritte).  But the way Dany is as queen? I don't think Jon would like that at all.

[Holmbo]

We should do match up with all the characters. It would be a good challenge because most of them are crazy and/or abusive.
 

Perhaps the bitter sweet ending will be that Dany and Jon will end up together and both will be like "meh".
Of course I personally can't shake the feeling that Jon and Sansa will end up together. For a lot of different reasons.

[Delta1212]

I'm looking forward to shimpy getting to, let's say roughly the end of book three, by which point I think it might be safe to talk about the outline for the original "first book" that Martin sent to his publisher.

Because the Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle never fails to crack me up whenever I think about it

[jellyroll2]

^^ Seriously! Talk about a, "well that's not something I thought I'd ever have imagined" lol

 

I do not get the Jon/Sansa and Jon/Arya thing. No matter what their blood relationship turns out to be, they grew up as siblings. Why would any of them think, "oh yeah, let's get married girl/guy who I've viewed as a sibling my whole life".

[John Potts]

Eegah, I would absolutely love it if the final reveal of Jon's parentage was that he was the son of Ned and Random Whore No. 3 (or, probably more likely, Guilty Fling No. 1). Though I have to say that it's looking ever less likely

and not just because he's (currently) dead!

 

And yes, I agree with Holmbo that if Jon dos end up on the throne, I doubt he'll find much joy in it

- it'll be like being Lord Commander writ large.

[Seerow]

Eegah, I would absolutely love it if the final reveal of Jon's parentage was that he was the son of Ned and Random Whore No. 3 (or, probably more likely, Guilty Fling No. 1). Though I have to say that it's looking ever less likely

and not just because he's (currently) dead!

 

And yes, I agree with Holmbo that if Jon dos end up on the throne, I doubt he'll find much joy in it

- it'll be like being Lord Commander writ large.

Re: the last spoiler

I'm not sure Jon has enough room in his body for THAT many knives

[nksarmi]

The fact that Jon would hate being king (and not for the same reasons as Robert B) is probably why he would make a good one.  But honestly, if I could pick an ending at this point, it would be this....

 

Jon and Dany (Ice and Fire) save Westerous through a combination of dragons, dire wolves, warging, prince that was promised, and Bran magic....but Dany dies, reuniting with Drogo and their son.  Then when everyone turns to Jon to take the Iron Throne, he goes all wildling on them and says "bend the knee to no man - yea democracy!" or some version of that. 

[Delta1212]

I can't see a way to make a democractic end to the series work, either logistically or thematically. I know it's a somewhat popular idea, but I just don't see it at all.

[Gheed]

Hi all! stillshimpy has made the great climb and is joining our reader ranks. I've offered her (and any other Unsullied who may decide to join her) a safe place to discuss the books over here. It doesn't mean you can't interact with them! By all means, do. I, myself, will be starting a reread of my own. Feel free to join in the discussion (with no spoilers past where they've read).

Just don't spoil things to come, or lead them on, etc. You know the drill by now. :)

ETA: ANYTHING DISCUSSED PAST WHERE SHIMPY IS IN HER READ NEEDS SPOILER TAGS. I repeat, ANYTHING DISCUSSED PAST WHERE SHIMPY IS IN HER READ NEEDS SPOILER TAGS.

[Holmbo]

Sorry you're right speculations should be covered. I'll have to look up how one writes it when on this site on the phone because I forgot.

I have a suspicion it was with squar brackets

Eta, of course it was square brackets. Those are not easy to get to on my keyboard. Is there like a forum app or something? I don't think I found one but perhaps I should look again. I can't write square brackets all day.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Holmbo

[stillshimpy]

Regarding Dany and Jon ending up together - I liked the idea at one point, but after getting to know Dany more - I think they would be a horrible match.

 

And....almost all speculation has him being her nephew, so....yuck.  

 

I fought long and hard for the "Jeez, just let that kid be Ned's and some woman named Willa's....because Ned is just a little too goody-goody...." and he was stuck marrying his (recently murdered) brother's intended, who we were given to believe was in love with that brother.  It would just be awfully nice if his character wasn't the ultimate martyr in all things, including never having had an ounce of romantic fun in his life.  Just duty and honor and duty and honor with a spot of (potentially) treasonous lying to break up the duty and honor....but mostly?  That was for the sake of duty and honor.  

 

I'd LOVE it if Jon really was just the kid created from the one time Ned Stark took his solemn act to funky town.   However, seeing as he about crapped the floor in fury when Petyr took him near a brothel, I'm guessing "random camp follower number 43" is almost certainly off the table as an option. 

 

It's just...he never, ever , even once spares a thought towards Jon's mother as such.   So....yeah.  Even I have to accept:  It's not likely that he's Ned's son. 

 

But back to the story in progress, I guess I need to go and read the next Tryion chapter. Here's hoping it's somewhat less "Shae, Shae, Tyrions bits and parts meet Shae" and more "This is why everyone thinks Tyrion is brilliant."  

[Crossbow]

The fact that Jon would hate being king (and not for the same reasons as Robert B) is probably why he would make a good one.  But honestly, if I could pick an ending at this point, it would be this....

 

Jon and Dany (Ice and Fire) save Westerous through a combination of dragons, dire wolves, warging, prince that was promised, and Bran magic....but Dany dies, reuniting with Drogo and their son.  Then when everyone turns to Jon to take the Iron Throne, he goes all wildling on them and says "bend the knee to no man - yea democracy!" or some version of that. 

 

What I would like to see is Danarys being queen, Tyrion being her Hand, and Jon being in charge of the military. Which they don't actually have - they have the King's Guard, the Night's Watch, and assorted private armies. Jon would have to build a national army.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Crossbow

[Holmbo]

Joffrey would be happy then :)

[Mya Stone]

Okay guys...let's leave the ending speculation out of the thread for now. :) thanks!

[Holmbo]

There is a reread thread as well, perhaps better suited for end game speculation.

[Protar]

Really looking forward to Shimpy's thoughts on Blackwater, which I believe she is fast approaching.

[Crossbow]

Sorry. :( I didn't think that saying what I *wanted* to see counted speculation. I think I need to stick strictly to the bookwalker threads.

[Hecate7]

I think there's actually even a wishlist thread around here somewhere--come hang out there. It's fun.

[nksarmi]

Crossbow - I don't think it does for the most part.  I mean, everyone here is being very careful for shimpy.  But I think at times - when we talk about end game, we could accidently confirm or deny something that is different from the show or the assumptions she currently has in her reading.  And let's face it - way more than half the fun of this thread is shimpy coming to certain points in the books and going "well la dee da, that explains a whole heck of a lot" or "wow, so the show totally made THAT up" etc... Or well, at least those posts are a whole lot of fun for me anyway (Jon being a warg was a big one for me, but there is another one coming soon that I am almost on pins and needles waiting for her to get to). :)

[Triskan]

Shimpy's getting closer to the end of book 2 ! Blackwater is coming, among many other details I'm so looking forward to read her take on !

 

(Must confess, the whole Rhaegar / Lyanna conversation bored me on the long run, everything on the subject has been said and re-said, and even if it's somehow new to her, it's definitly not what I'm most interested in reading about here, but hopefully, some other story elements will soon come to bring the discussion to new horizons ! =D  )

 

Looking forward to know where you are in the book Shimpy !

[Avaleigh]

*continues to wait patiently for a certain Catelyn chapter* :)

[Mya Stone]

Shimpy is currently on a whale watch in Seattle but she promises to have book 2 done upon her return! :)

[Lavignac]

You mean she's in White Harbor, right? That's where you can whale-watch. That or Yunkai!

[nksarmi]

Shimpy is currently on a whale watch in Seattle but she promises to have book 2 done upon her return! :)

You told her the natives were getting restless, did ya?

[Avaleigh]

You mean she's in White Harbor, right? That's where you can whale-watch. That or Yunkai!

If she's feeling adventurous it could be the Port of Ibben. ;)

It still makes me laugh that Ib was one of the two or three places that Ned suggest Cersei and her family flee. Not for the first time during that conversation (and others) did I look and think to Ned 'Dude, you have met this lady before, right?'

[Mya Stone]

You told her the natives were getting restless, did ya?

I did! ;) (I count myself as a native here, too!)

[Haleth]

Mya, if Shimpy is the Queen of the Spitball Wall you are the Queen's Hand.

[Avaleigh]

Mya, if Shimpy is the Queen of the Spitball Wall you are the Queen's Hand.

I'll add that Delta1212 has probably earned a spot on Shimpy's Queensguard. 

[stillshimpy]

Helllllloooo.  I saw an orca and read the end of the book :-)  Not in the same day! 

 

The Catelyn chapter when she lets Jaime go and he tells her how poor freaking Brandon and Rickard died?  When she lets Jaime go?  

 

I kept sending myself notes on my phone as I read to remember where to pick up, etc.  Things like the oddity of switching around Tyrion's line to being Cersei's in the show (and I'm starting to get why people think show Tyrion was sanitized to the point of sainthood).  

 

When I got to Catelyn's chapter I forgot to make notes because I was pretty much gobsmacked from there on in.  Poor freaking....everyone.  Just everyone.  

 

Also, wow, the stuff with Theon and those boys is even worse than the show depicted :-(  He killed Winterfell's master of the hounds, to cover up the murder of the men that helped them kill those boys....and then let Reek do whatever the hell it is that Reek/Ramsay wanted to his daughter.  

 

Anyway, yes, I did check my phone and got a message from Mya ...and I realized I'd forgotten to mention "Hey, I'll be tromping all over the Pacific Northwest next week, but I'm also going to be reading."   I'm home.  Portland, Seattle, WA and very small parts of Canada (I actually saw the orca in Canadian waters) all survived.   I'm sorry I forgot to mention I'd be off-board for the week! On the upside, I got some really great pictures of stained glass orbs, which may not by all that comforting to anyone, but at least they are pretty and comforting in their beauty. 

 

The same cannot be said for many of those characters.  Also?  Wow, that stuff with Lolly is even worse than I thought. 

 

More on the Blackwater later (Holy.Shit.) Even knowing what was going to happen, that was a series of harrowing chapters.  

Edited September 5, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Triskan]

Of course we're all eager to read your views on Blackwater and on the final Theon chapters (that are indeed intense !) but I'm also really looking forward to read if you've enjoyed the latest Jon chapters of the book (that desperate flight through the wild, that icy atmosphere, the Free Folk closing on them, the eagle spying from the sky above, the dream...). There is definitly some of my favourite moments of the story !

Edited September 5, 2015 by Triskan

[Haleth]

Glad to have you back, Shimpy, and glad you had a nice vacation.  

 

Off topic:  I've been whale watching twice off Cape Cod.  The first time was a breathtaking experience.  Words are inadequate for the grace and majesty of those enormous animals.  (In this case, humpbacks.)  The second time it was cold and drizzly and very choppy, and most of the passengers were seasick (I mean retching and laying on the floor of the cabin, unable to move) for 4 hours.  One word, people: dramamine.  Oh well, it was awesome in its own way.

 

Back on topic:  Looking forward to discussing Blackwater and how it differed from the show.  Which line were you referring to that was switched from Tyrion to Cersei?

[stillshimpy]

I have to go get my dogs back form doggie camp (boarding), but it was the "One day you will think you are safe and happy, but your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth..." etc.  In the show Cersei says that, not Tyrion...and he certainly doesn't threaten to do horrible things to Tommen in the show either (and I'm sure they were just threats, but good lord). 

 

There was SOOOOOOOO much that was changed about the Blackwater in the show.  A great deal about the sack of Winterfell too.  

 

Some of my notes were things like, "Sucks to be Willit."  as everyone is granted fine lands and titles.  He's hacked about half to death trying to protect a young man (who is better rewarded than he is) and his reward?  His sons will get to put themselves in the same positions for Lannisters.  Sucked to be Willit.  

 

The stuff with Theon threatening Beth Cassel also almost made me ill.  I know he's in a desperate panic, but ....man.  No one could ever deserve what happens to Theon in the show and I'm assuming it still will, because Ramsay has him now, but Theon is actually currently more difficult to pity, so I am impressed with what Alfie Allen did with that role.  

 

Okay, more later :-)  

 

The chapters for the Blackwater were amazing, although Sansa having to stop the Hound from pretty clearly being about set to rape her by singing was just heart-breaking on multiple levels.   I think the show did a more touching job with that and I'm glad they made the choices they did.  

 

But people, what the fuck?  Lancel is given House Darry's lands and Loras is in the Kingsguard?!? 

 

Also, I have to ask.  Just how freaking disappointed were you all with the show's depiction of the Blackwater??

Edited September 5, 2015 by stillshimpy