S04.E10: Election Night

[Maximum Taco]

But James is not the Vice President-elect. The election is still tied and he is just as tied as O'Brien's running mate. So there is no scenario that he can be a President / acting President without being elected by the new Senate. And that is why I do not understand why they are discussing about the possibility of James becoming POTUS.

 

Senators serve for 6 years each (unlike Congressmen who serve for 2 year terms), and elections are staggered so only 1/3rd of the Senate would be up for election at this time. So they could be projecting a Democratic Senate based on the Senators who are still in the middle of their terms and also the current races.

 

With a Democratic Senate, Meyer's team can be assured that Tom James, the Democratic candidate will be elected to the Office of VP, this is because unlike the House vote (which is 1 vote per state) each Senator gets a vote in the Veep election. This would make James VP Elect, regardless of who is made President Elect (or even if nobody is made President Elect)

 

Basically it's a lot easier to predict how the Senate vote will go. The House vote would be a lot more difficult to predict, since the entire House is up for election and the votes are based on State delegation, so even a House Majority for the Democrats could result in the election of the Republican candidate (or the election of no candidate) depending on the distribution of the representatives. 

Edited June 16, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I always love when the cast find someone that even they cant stand. Their unified hatred of Karen totally makes her presence worth it.

Their mutual hatred of Jonah has always cracked me up. I love that Karen is now on the list. Tom slamming the door in her face was hilarious. I also loved when Ben had to pretend he had a leg cramp. I can't decide who is more obnoxious between Karen and Jonah.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Deleted scenes:

[TV Anonymous]

Dev F, Maximum Taco, I understand the mechanism. However, the show does not explain to us how the political landscape in the House and the Senate is. It just jumps to the conclusion that based on 20th Amendment James will be President. Not just acting President, but President. And that he will be able to take Meyer as his VP. That is my issue. Considering that they (Meyer, James and their team) do not readily know some of the numbers without looking them up, I wonder how they can reach the conclusion confidently without first crunching the numbers in the new House and the new Senate.

[Mr.Ed]

There's no specification in the Constitution for what happens if the House is deadlocked indefinitely.

 

 

Isn't it decided by a fire-starting challenge?

[Rinaldo]

I didn't get the impression that they think Tom will automatically be president -- just that in this big backseat blowjob of an election, with everything going crazy, that would be the icing on the cake, and hence (in that fatalistic mood) probably what would happen.

[ganesh]

I would think if the House is deadlocked it would just go to a subsequent ballot, and so on. Presumably, if they aren't going to meet the deadline, they'd have to pass a measure allowing the sitting president to continue serving. They could also invite the two candidates to speak in Congress.

[Traveller519]

Oh, the look Kent is giving Karen in that deleted scene!

[Dev F]

I didn't get the impression that they think Tom will automatically be president -- just that in this big backseat blowjob of an election, with everything going crazy, that would be the icing on the cake, and hence (in that fatalistic mood) probably what would happen.

 

Yeah, they were just hurriedly working out every horrifying possibility while reading up on the relevant amendments on Wikipedia or what have you. They're not necessarily probable -- or even possible, really. I'm not sure whether we're supposed to think that in the Veep universe the amendments work differently and the Senate-selected veep would permanently become president if the House couldn't pick one in time for the inauguration, or whether they just misread the rules and it actually works the same way as in the real world, with the veep serving as acting president for as long as it takes for the House to get its shit together.

 

I would think if the House is deadlocked it would just go to a subsequent ballot, and so on. Presumably, if they aren't going to meet the deadline, they'd have to pass a measure allowing the sitting president to continue serving.

 

That would require amending the Constitution, though, which is next to impossible even when you're not in the midst of a massive constitutional crisis. I assume that's the real intent of the "Senate-selected veep serves as acting president" rule -- to assure that there's some figure whose selection can't be deadlocked who can preside over a relatively orderly transfer of power when everything else is going haywire.

 

But I think jcin617 is right and the real fight will take place before the election goes to the Congress to decide. Both sides will troll for faithless electors, scramble to lock down their own electors, demand recounts in every close state, etc., etc. That's basically what Iannucci has suggested in his postmortem interviews -- that each season has represented a widening view of the dysfunction of the American political system, and that next season will zoom out even further to portray our clusterfuck of a judiciary as the two sides scramble in the courts to win a tied race.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dev F

[ganesh]

No, it wouldn't require an amendment if it's a temporary measure to keep the US government running while they vote for the new president. You can't have the government without a head of state. They could pass a measure and send it to scotus to see if it's a reasonable derivative of the 12th and 20th amendment. Unless they have the speaker of the house just assume the presidency under succession in the mean time. 

 

One could also argue that the second presidential term isn't officially over under there's an elected successor, so Selina is still legally serving out her term as well. 

[Dev F]

No, it wouldn't require an amendment if it's a temporary measure to keep the US government running while they vote for the new president. You can't have the government without a head of state. They could pass a measure and send it to scotus to see if it's a reasonable derivative of the 12th and 20th amendment. 

 

But it's clearly not, because those amendments already provide for the selection of an interim president. That's what the "veep as acting president" provision is all about. They can't just decide that they don't like the way the Constitution says to do it and make up a different way.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dev F

[Sesquipedalia]

From the moment when Dan called Mike to give him the heads up about Pennsylvania to when Selina broke down in Amy's arms was an amazing four minutes of television. 

[ganesh]

Did Doyle resign from being VP or just step off the ticket? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I thought he just wasn't on the ticket, meaning he would still be VP until the next inauguration.

I think if he resigned, they would have to appoint a replacement to serve until the inauguration.

Edited June 17, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ganesh]

Yes, it seems that Congress would have to approve it. I didn't know if the Speaker automatically became VP upon resignation until the President appointed their own VP. 

[Maximum Taco]

Yes, it seems that Congress would have to approve it. I didn't know if the Speaker automatically became VP upon resignation until the President appointed their own VP. 

 

If the VP resigns, the President nominates a replacement candidate who must be confirmed by majority vote in both the House and the Senate. This is interesting if the President is from the opposite party as the one that controls the House and Senate. For instance if current Veep Joe Biden were to resign, Obama would likely want to nominate a powerful or popular Democrat, But he would have a lot of trouble getting confirmation since the House and Senate are both controlled by the Republicans.

 

The Speaker is not a bad choice though if the President wants the Speaker to be his Veep, as the Speaker would be guarenteed to win the vote in the House atleast.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[dustylil]

With respect, I think that would depend on the choice of Vice President the President made. Upon the resignation of Spiro Agnew, the Republican Richard Nixon had to select a new Veep in the rancorous early seventies. He had to deal with both a Democratic House and Senate.

His selection of the well-regarded Congressman and Minority Leader Gerald Ford was quite popular and the confirmation sailed through. Agnew left office in October 1973 and Ford was sworn in as Vice President in early December of that year. 

[Maximum Taco]

With respect, I think that would depend on the choice of Vice President the President made. Upon the resignation of Spiro Agnew, the Republican Richard Nixon had to select a new Veep in the rancorous early seventies. He had to deal with both a Democratic House and Senate.

His selection of the well-regarded Congressman and Minority Leader Gerald Ford was quite popular and the confirmation sailed through. Agnew left office in October 1973 and Ford was sworn in as Vice President in early December of that year. 

 

In the case of Nixon and Ford, Nixon reportadly asked the Democratic congressional leaders who to choose, and they suggested Ford.

 

The Democratic Speaker of the House at the time Carl Albert goes so far as to say that they gave Nixon no choice other than Ford.

 

There were rumours too that the Democrats got a promise from Ford not to run in 1976 (if he did make that promise he broke it.) If he had kept his promise though that would've been a good deal for the Democrats, especially since they probably suspected Nixon was on the way out. Ford would become President upon Nixon's impeachment/resignation and then as incumbant he would not run against them.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Ottis]

I love that there is so much discussion here about what would happen in the real world if there were a tie.

 

I don't get Selina's love/hate for Tom. The guy brought something to the ticket that worked. Reward that. She gets so aggressive as son as soon as anyone recognizes that Tom is popular. Until the tie came up, he wasn't a threat to replace her, so I don't get why she is so insecure.

 

Also, I feel badly for Catherine. I know we are supposed to laugh, but she doesn't seem that bad.

 

Loved all of Selina's rants. And agree, the American public is stupid.

[ganesh]

The Speaker is third in line in succession so, I didn't know if the Speaker would automatically fill the role of VP until one was appointed. 

[iMonrey]

 

Any of the Veep crowd going over to The Brink for their HBO Sunday night political sitcom fix?

 

I'll probably give it a shot, but the promo spots really aren't grabbing me.

 

 

I don't get Selina's love/hate for Tom.

 

She's jealous, plain and simple. He got all the attention on the campaign trail, not her. Even in this last episode she was trying to press the point that she should get credit for choosing him. 

 

Selina is really a horrible person, and her treatment of Catherine sort of epitomizes her narcissism. I think it was funny at first because it was so raw and edgy and it's still funny but the more I'm exposed to her behavior the more odious she seems. Complaining to a roomful of co-workers that spending 20 minutes alone with her daughter feels like an hour? Yikes.

[Maximum Taco]

The Speaker is third in line in succession so, I didn't know if the Speaker would automatically fill the role of VP until one was appointed. 

 

I don't believe so.

 

The Presidential line of succession is necessary because there can never be a point where the Presidency is vacant, there must be an absolute authority. There doesn't need to be a VP at all times. 

 

It doesn't really make sense to shuffle the roles around. After all if everyone is gonna move up one spot, then you'd need to find a new Speaker while the Speaker is filling the role of Veep.

 

I think the Vice Presidency just remains vacant until the President makes an appointment that can be confirmed by the House and Senate.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[peeayebee]

I don't get Selina's love/hate for Tom. 

She doesn't like to be second-fiddle. She wants to be in the spotlight. She's a narcissist. 

[SoothingDave]

In the election of 1800, there was a tie in the electoral college. It took the House 36 ballots in order to break the tie.

Things were different then in terms of how the EC voted (President and VP were not combined in one ticket), but there is nothing in the Constitution today that would make a VP selected by the Senate into the President on anything other than a temporary basis.

The House will pick a president. Might take a bunch of rounds of voting, but someone/something will give.

Edited June 24, 2015 by SoothingDave

[Ottis]

She doesn't like to be second-fiddle. She wants to be in the spotlight. She's a narcissist.

 

 

Well, they are *all* narcissists. That's the point of Veep, more or less. Everyone who wants that life likes the attention that goes with it or wants the attention and praise of the person in charge. The difference is, Selina is president. She's the top operative. She's smart enough to see the good things Tom brings to the table. You would think she would have a more effective way to leverage it, and when need be, address it when he becomes a little too popular. She reacts like a 10-year-old.

[ganesh]

I think the problem is that no one realizes how much of an influence Amy had on Selina. I feel like Selina's been more over the top since Amy quit. 

 

Assuming the show is relatively indicative of real life, there's a legit reason Selina was selected originally as VP. We have seen her be an effective politician. 

 

Another part of it was that she thought it would be way easier to get things done as president than VP. And, not really.

[Catherinewriter]

As usual, season is much too short.

 

I would kill to be able to watch them block a scene, preferably one in which most of them are together in a room and have to leave. And leave quickly. I don't know the they get through these scenes without totally blowing it. Which they probably do, lots.

 

Until next season. Sigh

[seacliffsal]

A lot can happen if the election goes to the House of Representatives.  In 1824 and 1876 it is believed that there were "corrupt bargains' made for political favors.  Henry Clay had run for president in 1824, but as only the top three candidates went on to the House, he was not eligible to become president (he was 4th).  However, as Speaker of the House he was the most powerful member.  John Quincy Adams became president, and Henry Clay became Secretary of State.  In 1876 it is believed that Hayes made deals with southerners and promised to end Reconstruction...which he did.  Tons of deal making would happen.