One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[clack]

Jess adopted the pose of the rebel poet, the outsider artist -- Bukowski, Rimbaud, Genet, Burroughs, what have you. In reality, he was just a pretentious high school kid with, as far as we could see, modest literary talent.

Both Dean and Jess had abandonment issues. Dean dealt with his fears by being controlling, Jess by actually courting abandonment. If you belong to no one or nothing, you are abandon-proof. Thus, Jess pushing Luke away, being obnoxious towards almost everyone he met, and leaving Rory before she could leave him.

[marineg]

3 hours ago, clack said:

Jess adopted the pose of the rebel poet, the outsider artist -- Bukowski, Rimbaud, Genet, Burroughs, what have you. In reality, he was just a pretentious high school kid with, as far as we could see, modest literary talent.

Jess never really pretended to be an artist or a poet or anything of the kind. The only time we actually saw him so anything close to being a writer is when he showed up, season 6, with his own book in hand and announced that he was now working at a publishing company. Prior to that, there was no indication that he was remotely interested in writing.

 

3 hours ago, clack said:

Both Dean and Jess had abandonment issues. Dean dealt with his fears by being controlling, Jess by actually courting abandonment. If you belong to no one or nothing, you are abandon-proof. Thus, Jess pushing Luke away, being obnoxious towards almost everyone he met, and leaving Rory before she could leave him.

What abandonment issues did Dean have? He had two parents who loved each other and love their children, an amazing relationship with his sister, not to mention grandparents that he visited regularly. He has the most stable family life than anyone in this world.

And I agree about Jess pushing everyone away. That's the point I was trying to make. He believed he could only rely on himself. He didn't make any friends apart from Rory, tried to push Luke away, didn't try to involve himself in town events...

But again, I don't think he was obnoxious or pretentious, just damaged (and let's not forget, 17; who wasn't a bit of an self-believed rebel at 17?)

Edited May 15, 2018 by marineg

[HeySandyStrange]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

Jess never really pretended to be an artist or a poet or anything of the kind. The only time we actually saw him so anything close to being a writer is when he showed up, season 6, with his own book in hand and announced that he was now working at a publishing company. Prior to that, there was no indication that he was remotely interested in writing.

 

What abandonment issues did Dean have? He had two parents who loved each other and love their children, an amazing relationship with his sister, not to mention grandparents that he visited regularly. He has the most stable family life than anyone in this world.

And I agree about Jess pushing everyone away. That's the point I was trying to make. He believed he could only rely on himself. He didn't make any friends apart from Rory, tried to push Luke away, didn't try to involve himself in town events...

But again, I don't think he was obnoxious or pretentious, just damaged (and let's not forget, 17; who wasn't a bit of an self-believed rebel at 17?)

 

To me, Jess was what the kids today would call an "edge Lord".  It is possible to be legitimately damaged-though imo they didn't do a great job of painting Jess's life as all that terrible-and melodramatic and prententious, especially like most of us are in our snotty teen phases. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by HeySandyStrange

[marineg]

9 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

To me, Jess was what the kids today would call an "edge Lord".  It is possible to be legitimately damaged-though imo they didn't do a great job of painting Jess's life as all that terrible-and melodramatic and prententious, especially like most of us are in our snotty teen phases. 

Definitely edgy, "too cool for school" as the oldies called them. 

And no, they did not do a great job of painting Jess' life as terrible. The only mention was when he moved to town, and Luke said about liz: "She's too busy, she can't handle him, she's sending him here." "I'm sure she put at least five or six minutes of thought into it." "Liz is afraid he's heading for something bad, and rather than handle it herself, she's just giving up." "All he needs is a change of pace, a new crowd, and to get away from the nutjob that, unfortunately, is my sister." "Look, his problem is obvious, it's his mother. You never could count on Liz for anything. Our mom died when we were kids, right? It was just my dad, me and Liz. And my dad worked all the time and I worked in the store with my dad, and Liz was off doing God knows what. [...] And then the minute she graduates high school, she is outta here. Didn't matter that my dad was sick, didn't matter that the store was failing, she just took off."

Or at the Bracebridge Dinner,  "Jess has some time off from school. His mom knew that and she never called."

That's about all we get about Liz. And then she shows up all funny and quirky, and apart from her lack of taste when choosing a boyfriend/husband, no one ever questions her child-rearing capabilities or anything else for that matter. ASP likes to introduce characters and aspects of the world, and then rewrite them episodes or seasons later. (Like Dean saying he doesn't have and never will have a motorcycle to Lorelai, and 4 episodes later, Rory says, as if everyone is already aware, that Dean is working on his motorcycle.)

Edited May 15, 2018 by marineg

[stan4]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

Definitely edgy, "too cool for school" as the oldies called them. 

And no, they did not do a great job of painting Jess' life as terrible. The only mention was when he moved to town, and Luke said about liz: "She's too busy, she can't handle him, she's sending him here." "I'm sure she put at least five or six minutes of thought into it." "Liz is afraid he's heading for something bad, and rather than handle it herself, she's just giving up." "All he needs is a change of pace, a new crowd, and to get away from the nutjob that, unfortunately, is my sister." "Look, his problem is obvious, it's his mother. You never could count on Liz for anything. Our mom died when we were kids, right? It was just my dad, me and Liz. And my dad worked all the time and I worked in the store with my dad, and Liz was off doing God knows what. [...] And then the minute she graduates high school, she is outta here. Didn't matter that my dad was sick, didn't matter that the store was failing, she just took off."

 

Thank you for saying this.

Everyone wants to explain away Jess' obnoxious behavior as 'troubled kid' who was practically abused.

But we NEVER get that backstory.  The kid comes into town with nice hair, concert t shirts, obviously well-read...I mean, give me a break with the pity party.

[marineg]

40 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Thank you for saying this.

Everyone wants to explain away Jess' obnoxious behavior as 'troubled kid' who was practically abused.

But we NEVER get that backstory.  The kid comes into town with nice hair, concert t shirts, obviously well-read...I mean, give me a break with the pity party.

Yes, but I do think that he was meant to be troubled. ASP wrote him as a kid with issues (at home and in general) before he arrived. But the second he was in SH, every home expected him to be a Dean look-alike, proper, clean, respectful etc. (although I have many issues with Dean being described that way as I mentioned before). Everyone forgot that before Jess came to town, he was seen as a troubled youth with actual abandonment issues. 

My problem is with the inconsistency of the characters' backstory.

[Kohola3]

53 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Everyone wants to explain away Jess' obnoxious behavior as 'troubled kid' who was practically abused.

But we NEVER get that backstory.  The kid comes into town with nice hair, concert t shirts, obviously well-read...I mean, give me a break with the pity party.

A pseudo James Dean.  He was just a punk.  Hated that kind of crap when I was in high school and have no tolerance for it now.

[clack]

Quote

What abandonment issues did Dean have?

We never get the story on Dean, but there was something going on there. Why was he so clingy and controlling with Rory? So invested in the idea of a stay-at-home housewife? Why did he get married at 18? That's not normal for a middle class kid.

What abandonment issues did Dean have? He was afraid of being abandoned by Rory.

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, clack said:

We never get the story on Dean, but there was something going on there. Why was he so clingy and controlling with Rory? So invested in the idea of a stay-at-home housewife? Why did he get married at 18? That's not normal for a middle class kid.

What abandonment issues did Dean have? He was afraid of being abandoned by Rory.

I would call him more clingy and jealous than controlling. He let Rory do whatever she wanted.  He just wanted her to find time to spend with him also.  So, basically, what I'm saying was most of his behavior was caused by jealousy and insecurity. 

I don't know that he was "so invested" in the idea of a stay-at-home housewife.  The only time it really came up was in That Damn Donna Reed.  And, he didn't say women had to stay home and cook and clean for there man.  he just didn't see anything wrong with a woman doing it. Neither do I.  But, I'm not invested in it.  As for Lindsay being a stay at home wife, that seemed to be her idea. Not something Dean forced upon her.

Lindsay asked him to get married.  Basically.  He said it was her idea or something.  Not that that means that he had to do it, of course. I think Dean was in love with the idea of fairy tale, happily ever after.  If anything, I would say that points to the opposite of a bad home life.  Yeah, it would have been nice if his parents would have told him to wait on marrying Lindsay. Not because they were 18.  Lots of people marry young and make a go of it.  But, because they hadn't been dating that long, Dean was still hung up on Rory. And they didn't seem to have a life plan. 

[HeySandyStrange]

53 minutes ago, marineg said:

Yes, but I do think that he was meant to be troubled. ASP wrote him as a kid with issues (at home and in general) before he arrived. But the second he was in SH, every home expected him to be a Dean look-alike, proper, clean, respectful etc. (although I have many issues with Dean being described that way as I mentioned before). Everyone forgot that before Jess came to town, he was seen as a troubled youth with actual abandonment issues. 

My problem is with the inconsistency of the characters' backstory.

The show and writers could be pretty terrible regarding character consistency. Dean was one of the best (worst) examples of this: he starts out as guy from the big city who shared some of the same interests as Rory , then turns into a country bumpkin off the first bus from Mayberry.  The weren't above rearranging the secondary characters to fit their plots, Liz being another example of that.

Personally, they hinted around (at least to me) that Jess's background was a lot darker then it ended up appearing to be. Like some kind of Law&Order: SVU type dysfunctional. But, outside of some probably legitimate emotional neglect, I wasn't seeing it. He came off as more superior and petulant to me then anything. Actually, someone made a good point on the forum a while back (in the Dean thread, no less), that the show would sometimes approach serious storylines like the Rory/Dean affair or Jess's alleged neglect but wouldn't follow through with them.

31 minutes ago, clack said:

We never get the story on Dean, but there was something going on there. Why was he so clingy and controlling with Rory? So invested in the idea of a stay-at-home housewife? Why did he get married at 18? That's not normal for a middle class kid.

What abandonment issues did Dean have? He was afraid of being abandoned by Rory.

Yes, to be fair, Dean never outright said, that I can remember, that he had a picture perfect family. He might have implied it, but that doesn't mean it was true. It is certainly possible things weren't that great at home for Dean, maybe his parents fought a lot, maybe their was even domestic abuse. We have no clue, because it goes back to what I consider is the main point about Dean: he was basically a walking plot point and a very static character.

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know that he was "so invested" in the idea of a stay-at-home housewife.  The only time it really came up was in That Damn Donna Reed.  And, he didn't say women had to stay home and cook and clean for there man.  he just didn't see anything wrong with a woman doing it. Neither do I.  But, I'm not invested in it.  As for Lindsay being a stay at home wife, that seemed to be her idea. Not something Dean forced upon her.

Yeah, I lot of people seem to construe Dean's ideas in TDDR as him being some backwards traditionalist misogynist, whereas I never got that impression. I actually think it was one of his finer moments, as he stated his opinions in a fair, balanced way without being judgmental or pushy about it, unlike Lorelai and Rory. He also mentioned at the end that he didn't expect or want Rory to conform to the housewife ideal. He was just very family oriented.

[Guest]

I think they started painting Jess’ home life as rosier when they introduced Liz. Because they can’t have her as a somewhat viable character if she was as bad of a mom as she was hinted at previously.

[Anela]

2 hours ago, clack said:

We never get the story on Dean, but there was something going on there. Why was he so clingy and controlling with Rory? So invested in the idea of a stay-at-home housewife? Why did he get married at 18? That's not normal for a middle class kid.

What abandonment issues did Dean have? He was afraid of being abandoned by Rory.

I'm not as bothered by a few things, since I've seen people excuse Jess before, just because he was a teenage boy: insulting her mother, more than once, insulting her boyfriend by repeatedly trying to get between them, and spend time with her that she was going to spend with Dean. Stealing, , etc. But one of the things that did bug me with Dean, is something I see with a lot of guys in shows or books: they say "I'm not going anywhere" as if it's supposed to be romantic. Um, hello! You're speaking to her mother here! She's sixteen! If they had Rory saying that to people around the guy she'd just met, they would be calling her a stalker, or in some circles online,  a "stage five clinger" (those absurd PUA guys). 

[stan4]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I think they started painting Jess’ home life as rosier when they introduced Liz. Because they can’t have her as a somewhat viable character if she was as bad of a mom as she was hinted at previously.

But show me where they ever said he lived in a hole in the ground with scraps and abuse and mistreatment.

I don't know why we are supposed to think that.  I don't even see the hints.  Ever.

Edited May 15, 2018 by stan4

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, stan4 said:

But show me where they ever said he lived in a hole in the ground with scraps and abuse and mistreatment.

I don't know why we are supposed to think that.  I don't even see the hints.  Ever.

I don’t think anyone is arguing he did. I do think Liz sending him to Luke before talking to Luke, his dad walking out at a time inconsistently stated throughout the show, Liz’ multiple experiences with drugs and multiple disastrous relationships all points to a worse situation than was depicted once Liz showed up.

[stan4]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

I don’t think anyone is arguing he did. I do think Liz sending him to Luke before talking to Luke, his dad walking out at a time inconsistently stated throughout the show, Liz’ multiple experiences with drugs and multiple disastrous relationships all points to a worse situation than was depicted once Liz showed up.

Besides the pot, where was it mentioned Liz was on drugs?

I know she's had other relationships.

There are posters on here who talk about how he is bitter bc of some implied food-insecure and abusive childhood.  None of which is substantiated by anything shown on the series.

[marineg]

5 hours ago, clack said:

We never get the story on Dean, but there was something going on there. Why was he so clingy and controlling with Rory? So invested in the idea of a stay-at-home housewife? Why did he get married at 18? That's not normal for a middle class kid.

What abandonment issues did Dean have? He was afraid of being abandoned by Rory.

We do get the story on Dean though. Much more that on Jess. We know he has loving parents who both work, although his mother used to be a stay-at-home mother. He has a beautiful and sweet sister, grandparents he see regularly, and that he used to have a girlfriend in Chicago, with whom he parted ways in a very mature way and who's dating his cousin.

Being afraid of being abandoned by your girlfriend is not the same as having abandonment issues. That's just being a normal person. Whenever you're in a relationship and you love the other person, you're afraid they might leave you or that it might end. But you overcome it by trusting the other person, by trusting they love you as much as you love them, and by trusting you when they tell you they won't leave. Not by manipulating them and wanting to separate them from every person/thing in their lives. That's emotional abuse.

 

52 minutes ago, deaja said:

I don’t think anyone is arguing he did. I do think Liz sending him to Luke before talking to Luke, his dad walking out at a time inconsistently stated throughout the show, Liz’ multiple experiences with drugs and multiple disastrous relationships all points to a worse situation than was depicted once Liz showed up.

YES. Why do we forgive Dean is behaviour when he had no excuses, but not Jess who basically had to grow up in a house where his single parent put him in contact with drugs, who never had a stable relationship or job, and who was forced to leave the state on her mother's whim, without consulting him?

[marineg]

1 hour ago, stan4 said:

Besides the pot, where was it mentioned Liz was on drugs?

I know she's had other relationships.

There are posters on here who talk about how he is bitter bc of some implied food-insecure and abusive childhood.  None of which is substantiated by anything shown on the series.

For the drugs, it's never mentioned because it's the WB, a family show, and like many things (eg. abortions), they never come out and say it. But it's heavily implied that she had drug problems, a string of unreliable boyfriends, trouble keeping down jobs, and not truly caring about her kid. But didn't fit with the storyline ASP wanted to write once Liz was on screen . So they retconned and made her a pot smoking hippie. 

 

Also, complete change of topic. Why do ASP & DP hate French people so much? (Careful what you say I'm French myself!) But seriously though, when the girls leave for Europe, they come back and call the French embassy, they criticise them. They talk about how on the way to Prague a group of French teenagers smelled "like a soccer field" and had bad taste in music. When Rory moves to Yale and Lorelai spends the night they say everyone will think they are "dirty French girls" if they sleep in the same bed, and they go on to make stereotypical and prejudiced comments about the French... There are a lot of examples. Starting with the portrayal of Michel. And the fact that ASP know nothing of French culture and customs (like the fact that you can't have a shotgun wedding in France or that there are no graduation ceremonies...)

[Kohola3]

21 minutes ago, marineg said:

Why do ASP & DP hate French people so much?

Or fat people?  Or poor people?  Or Christians?  She's an equal opportunity hater.

[marineg]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Or fat people?  Or poor people?  Or Christians?  She's an equal opportunity hater.

Very true. Or people who clip coupons. Like who hates that? Who hates saving money especially when your a single parent who has a daughter in one of the most expensive colleges in the world, who loves to go shopping, eating out, and buying junk food? God she should live on coupons!

Edited May 16, 2018 by marineg

[HeySandyStrange]

Maybe there was a time in ASP's life that a French person was much more witty then her? And she had a Rory like "I'm not the smartest, wittiest, most special child in the world!" meltdown, so she took her revenge by stereotyping French people in her GG? Smartassiness aside, ASP wasn't above going for a cheap joke. Personally I'm glad we never met Odette; she likely would've been some totally unlikable French/Eurotrash stereotype.

Edited May 15, 2018 by HeySandyStrange

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

Why do ASP & DP hate French people so much? (Careful what you say I'm French myself!) 

She was weirdly hateful towards Philadelphia, too. I know collectively we can be abrasive, but come on lady, did the Philly Phanatic kill your grandma? Your first boyfriend leave you to run a cheesesteak and hoagie stand? Could you not get tickets to Live Aid? 

[stan4]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Or fat people?  Or poor people?  Or Christians?  She's an equal opportunity hater.

Or Porsches????!!!

1 hour ago, marineg said:

For the drugs, it's never mentioned because it's the WB, a family show, and like many things (eg. abortions), they never come out and say it. But it's heavily implied that she had drug problems, a string of unreliable boyfriends, trouble keeping down jobs, and not truly caring about her kid. 

Can you please point to where this was heavily implied?  The drugs and the kid thing?  We know she had loser boyfriends.  And we knew she was flakey with her work situation (although we are not really told when she got her crap together with the jewelry).

None of that should really equals harsh, abusive environment- certainly not enough to explain away Jess' douchery.

 I think we are having some Mandela effect here.

 

They did mention drugs...obliquely...while Lane was chasing the dragon.

 

Lol at the Frenchies.

Edited May 15, 2018 by stan4

[Anela]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

For the drugs, it's never mentioned because it's the WB, a family show, and like many things (eg. abortions), they never come out and say it. But it's heavily implied that she had drug problems, a string of unreliable boyfriends, trouble keeping down jobs, and not truly caring about her kid. But didn't fit with the storyline ASP wanted to write once Liz was on screen . So they retconned and made her a pot smoking hippie. 

 

Also, complete change of topic. Why do ASP & DP hate French people so much? (Careful what you say I'm French myself!) But seriously though, when the girls leave for Europe, they come back and call the French embassy, they criticise them. They talk about how on the way to Prague a group of French teenagers smelled "like a soccer field" and had bad taste in music. When Rory moves to Yale and Lorelai spends the night they say everyone will think they are "dirty French girls" if they sleep in the same bed, and they go on to make stereotypical and prejudiced comments about the French... There are a lot of examples. Starting with the portrayal of Michel. And the fact that ASP know nothing of French culture and customs (like the fact that you can't have a shotgun wedding in France or that there are no graduation ceremonies...)

They get in a few jabs at London and England, too. Which I never appreciate when those scenes pop up. At least the implication that London is full of people having sex, and that's it. Although that might be a plus for some people. Then we have Rory insulting the English woman, because she's jealous. But she does make me laugh when she says, "You have legs, we get it!"

Edited May 15, 2018 by Anela

[marineg]

17 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

Maybe there was a time in ASP's life that a French person was much more witty then her? And she had a Rory like "I'm not the smartest, wittiest, most special child in the world!" meltdown, so she took her revenge by stereotyping French people in her GG? Smartassiness aside, ASP wasn't above going for a cheap joke. Personally I'm glad we never met Odette; she likely would've been some totally unlikable French/Eurotrash stereotype.

 

I like that theory. And I think you're right about Odette. First of all that's not a popular name. Not for French people between 0-45yo. Plus I think she made her French to make her sound snotty and pretentious, and as if we shouldn't care that her fiancée was cheating on her with "perfect" Rory.

16 hours ago, stan4 said:

Can you please point to where this was heavily implied?  The drugs and the kid thing? 

I can't pinpoint exactly for the drugs. But it's a feeling everyone got while watching. Go online and you'll see hundreds of people mentioning it. It's not just us.

For the kid it's easy. Before she got to town, everyone agreed that she wasn't paying much attention to him, dropped him on Luke's lap without Luke's or Jess' consent, who never had stable jobs or relationships, and who, once her son as out of the state, finally live her life as a free woman without a care for her son, like when she didn't invite him over Christmas.

16 hours ago, Anela said:

Then we have Rory insulting the English woman, because she's jealous. But she does make me laugh when she says, "You have legs, we get it!"

For a show that is supposedly feminist and all about strong women finding themselves, it had a hard time celebrating the other women that crossed paths with the characters. There was Sherry and her friends, successful business women, who were then made into idiots who knew nothing about babies, pregnancies, social manners, or anything really apart from their jobs, and in Sherry's case, who ultimately left her husband and baby to move to (you guessed it) Paris with her yoga instructor. There was also the British lady you mentioned who, if you look at our current world, probably worked her ass off to get on equal ground as 3 men, one of which being Logan who's got a corner office overlooking Piccadilly Circus given to him by his daddy. Girl wins life and she's not even 30. But ASP makes her into a superficial woman who uses her feminine wiles to have men do her bidding.

And I won't mention the Emily types who kept a house together, working alongside their husbands and working in their shadows in order for them to shine in their respective business enterprises, and whom ASP mocks mercilessly and continually.

Oh, and Paris, who is the most driven and serious person of all, who was turned into a comedic crazy person.

Edited May 16, 2018 by marineg

[stan4]

21 minutes ago, marineg said:

 

I can't pinpoint exactly for the drugs. But it's a feeling everyone got while watching. Go online and you'll see hundreds of people mentioning it. It's not just us.

For the kid it's easy. Before she got to town, everyone agreed that she wasn't paying much attention to him, dropped him on Luke's lap without Luke's or Jess' consent, who never had stable jobs or relationships, and who, once her son as out of the state, finally live her life as a free woman without a care for her son, like when she didn't invite him over Christmas.

 

You can't pinpoint the heavy  drug use bc it never came up and was never alluded to (except the pot and the drinking while pregnant - which many women back then did).

Hence Mandela Effect.  Tons of people believing something happened that never did.

 The people who seem to really get behind the "Liz was a terrible druggie mom" theory seem to be team Jess. So they can justify his horrible behavior.

 

She sent him to SH bc she was worried about his wild behavior.   I agree that there was some suggestion that her flakiness included being less than on top of her kid's behavior and subpar regarding supervision (Luke's rants).  But sending a teen boy to an alpha male relative when there isn't one at home is not a new thing.  Long held tradition/psychologically supported maneuver.

 

  At the end of the day, we may be debating 2 different issues. I am in no way suggesting that Liz was a good mother. I merely am saying that there is not enough evidence re: her parenting directly or indirectly presented in this show to justify the crappy behavior we see from Jess.

 

Btw, I love your comments!!!!!

1 hour ago, Anela said:

They get in a few jabs at London and England, too. Which I never appreciate when those scenes pop up. At least the implication that London is full of people having sex, and that's it. 

Wait.

 

So I should cancel my London trip?

No wild birds and blokes?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Or fat people?  Or poor people?  Or Christians?  She's an equal opportunity hater.

Or rich people. Or people who go to community college who aren't Lorelai. Or people who go to Yale who aren't Rory. 

They like to hate.

[Kohola3]

12 minutes ago, deaja said:

They like to hate.

And I always questioned the marital relationship of the Palladinos.  They wrote very little physical contact and how many "I love you" exchanges did we hear in 7 seasons?

[Frelling Tralk]

9 hours ago, stan4 said:

You can't pinpoint the heavy  drug use bc it never came up and was never alluded to (except the pot and the drinking while pregnant - which many women back then did).

Hence Mandela Effect.  Tons of people believing something happened that never did.

 The people who seem to really get behind the "Liz was a terrible druggie mom" theory seem to be team Jess. So they can justify his horrible behavior.

 

She sent him to SH bc she was worried about his wild behavior.   I agree that there was some suggestion that her flakiness included being less than on top of her kid's behavior and subpar regarding supervision (Luke's rants).  But sending a teen boy to an alpha male relative when there isn't one at home is not a new thing.  Long held tradition/psychologically supported maneuver.

I can understand viewers feeling like Jess’s family situation was later retconned a little bit, but I wonder if part of it wasn’t the viewers reading more into it like you say? When a ~troubled~ kid like Jess turns up, there’s generally an assumption that he comes from a troubled and abusive background and that it’s all very tragic, but looking back I think the writers were fairly consistent in writing Liz as just a very flaky person who didn’t know how to handle her son. That’s basically how Luke was grumbling and describing her when the topic of Jess moving in with him for a year first came up. 

Her worst moment was probably when she didn’t call or invite Jess home for Christmas, and that’s hard to justify but otherwise I don’t think that Amy ever intended for Liz to be all that different from the hippy character that eventually showed up onscreen. There was no implication that she was involved in heavy drug use that I can remember, and there’s never a scene where Jess confronts her for letting her boyfriends knock him around, but a lot of viewers still seem to have the vague impression that that sort of stuff must have gone on.

The most the show ever implies, as far as I can remember, is that Liz was very ditzy and not really stable enough to raise a kid. She likely floated around from job to job and there wasn’t always a steady income coming in, plus she had bad taste in boyfriends (likely losers who were mooching off her) who failed to stick around. I always thought that was more the kind of stuff that Jess was angry with her for, because it is very tough on a young kid to not feel like their mother is a solid and supportive presence who will take care of everything. Likely that was part of what inspired Jess to skip school for the job at the store, because he had grown up in an unstable household where there was panic over getting the bills paid on time 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[marineg]

14 hours ago, stan4 said:

You can't pinpoint the heavy  drug use bc it never came up and was never alluded to (except the pot and the drinking while pregnant - which many women back then did).

Jess was born in 1984. Women already knew not to smoke or drink during pregnancies. But yes, maybe it's just an idea I got, that was reinforced by things read online. I'll give you that.

 

5 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Her worst moment was probably when she didn’t call or invite Jess home for Christmas, and that’s hard to justify but otherwise I don’t think that Amy ever intended for Liz to be all that different from the hippy character that eventually showed up onscreen. There was no implication that she was involved in heavy drug use that I can remember, and there’s never a scene where Jess confronts her for letting her boyfriends knock him around, but a lot of viewers still seem to have the vague impression that that sort of stuff must have gone on.

 

I never thought that anyone was physically abusive with Jess though. I just think that she was an overall shitty mother who didn't care much about her kid, and didn't give him a very reliable mother. Which explains his behaviour of not trusting anyone. 

And SH wasn't welcoming in the least, or understanding.

 

14 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

And I always questioned the marital relationship of the Palladinos.  They wrote very little physical contact and how many "I love you" exchanges did we hear in 7 seasons?

More than physical contact, I will say that they have a huge thing against sex. There isn't an occurrence of sexual encounter (unless they already are in a relationship) where the characters weren't punished. Lorelai & Christopher had teenage sex and were "punished" by getting pregnant. Rory had sex with a married man and was publicly shamed by Lindsay's mom. Lorelai slept with Christopher on 3 occasions before their relationship/marriage, and it was followed by heart break every time. Paris had (teenage) sex with her boyfriend of almost 1 year and was punished by not getting into Harvard and having a public breakdown. Lane had sex with her husband for the first time (ever) and got pregnant with twins. The first time Lorelai and Luke had sex, she walks in the diner barely dressed. 
There are many examples for characters being punished in small or big ways for having sex.

Edited May 16, 2018 by marineg

[Kohola3]

15 minutes ago, marineg said:

There are many examples for characters being punished in small or big ways for having sex.

Hadn't thought about that but you're right.  And the L/L pregnancy scare with the unprotected drunken sex.

[marineg]

34 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Hadn't thought about that but you're right.  And the L/L pregnancy scare with the unprotected drunken sex.

Not a punishment, but what about when Lorelai, hearing that Paris had sex and not Rory, sings "I've got the good kid".

Not to mention that Michel was gay, but forced in the closet because of his sexual orientation.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

Paris had (teenage) sex with her boyfriend of almost 1 year and was punished by not getting into Harvard and having a public breakdown.

She didn't not get into Harvard because she had sex. She didn't get into Harvard because of her ridiculous agro interview.    And Rory (and Dean) should have been publicly shamed.  You don't commit adultery.

[Kohola3]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She didn't not get into Harvard because she had sex. She didn't get into Harvard because of her ridiculous agro interview.    And Rory (and Dean) should have been publicly shamed.  You don't commit adultery.

Oh, I don't think anyone is arguing this.  It's a statement on the Palladino's views of sex.  It was never paired with anything even vaguely pleasant!

[marineg]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She didn't not get into Harvard because she had sex. She didn't get into Harvard because of her ridiculous agro interview.    And Rory (and Dean) should have been publicly shamed.  You don't commit adultery.

Definitely with you about Rory. I almost added an "not that she didn't deserve it" in my previous post. Absolutely right and Lorelai and Rory were absolutely wrong. No doubt.

However, in terms for punishment for sex, we're talking about the chronology of events, not what would be possible in our world. Obviously, someone could not be refused from a school for sex. It's just how ASP makes things appear. Whenever someone has sex outside of what ASP deems normal, their character gets punished.

 

23 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Oh, I don't think anyone is arguing this.  It's a statement on the Palladino's views of sex.  It was never paired with anything even vaguely pleasant!

If it was a real feminist show, they could have portrayed women who have a very healthy sexual life. It got a bit better when Rory was with Logan. But there was the whole priest-dinner with Rory to dissuade her to give the gift that is her virginity. And then moving her from the pool house to the big house when Emily and Richard found out she was having sex.

Edited May 16, 2018 by marineg

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, marineg said:

If it was a real feminist show, they could have portrayed women who have a very healthy sexual life. It got a bit better when Rory was with Logan. But there was the whole priest-dinner with Rory to dissuade her to give the gift that is her virginity. And then moving her from the pool house to the big house when Emily and Richard found out she was having sex.

I don't equate feminism (or masculinism) with sexual acts.  Feminism is about equality.  Or should be.  So, if the show were portraying that men can and should be having sex a lot and with lots of partners and women shouldn't be having sex at all (still not sure how that works) then it would be anti-feminist.  If it's "no sex for anybody" which is what I'm gathering the comments are saying, then it's not really a feminist issue.

[marineg]

59 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't equate feminism (or masculinism) with sexual acts.  Feminism is about equality.  Or should be.  So, if the show were portraying that men can and should be having sex a lot and with lots of partners and women shouldn't be having sex at all (still not sure how that works) then it would be anti-feminist.  If it's "no sex for anybody" which is what I'm gathering the comments are saying, then it's not really a feminist issue.

I'm not equating feminism with sexual acts either. And it is about equality. But this is a show about Rory and Lorelai, their relationship with each other, and with others. So in a way, we don't care that the male characters are or aren't having sex. We care that they are (for the sake of the argument, not like the show should be about that). I did talk about other characters in my previous post, because ASP does punish people who have sex outside of the "perfect" situation, but ultimately the show is about 2 women. And it is celebrated by some as a feminist family show about two independent women. But an aspect of womanhood is sex. In no way should someone's first sexual experience be followed up what the character would perceive to be the worst thing happening to them (Rory having an awful fight with her mother and Dean not being available for her; Paris not getting into her dream school; Lane getting pregnant and stuck in SH, Lorelai (may not have been her 1st time but still) getting pregnant). As a feminist you should celebrate the fact that these women are embracing that part of their lives. Not punishing them.

I'm also in no way saying that feminism and embracing your sexuality means "having a lot of sex with lots of partners". Someone's sexual life/habits/orientation/preferences is a private matter and not up for judgment.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, marineg said:

In no way should someone's first sexual experience be followed up what the character would perceive to be the worst thing happening to them

But sometimes it is.  That's not an anti-feminist stance.  It's just the way things happen sometimes.

[marineg]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But sometimes it is.  That's not an anti-feminist stance.  It's just the way things happen sometimes.

In real life, it's a coincidence (or consequence). In a film/show, and especially in ASP's world, it it a consciously thought out storyline.

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, marineg said:

I just think that she was an overall shitty mother who didn't care much about her kid, and didn't give him a very reliable mother. Which explains his behaviour of not trusting anyone. 

I don't like Jess but I do agree Liz was a shitty mother and I really don't like that she never gets called on it.  She's kind of like the female Christopher. Both characters basically get a pass on being a crappy parent.     

[marineg]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't like Jess but I do agree Liz was a shitty mother and I really don't like that she never gets called on it.  She's kind of like the female Christopher. Both characters basically get a pass on being a crappy parent.     

Yes for Christopher. But I will say this: for both Liz and Christopher, there is a lack of backstory about their screw ups in terms of parenthood, but the relationships they have with their kids is different (at least when they are first introduced). Jess and Liz have a very strained relationship, with Liz sending her kid away without asking him, barely calling him, and not wanting to see him later on. When Christopher shows up the very first time, Rory is thrilled to see him, and it is mentioned on several occasions that he calls once a week. He's still a bad parent, don't get me wrong. But it seems that it wasn't so bad that Rory wasn't mad at him, but rather just missing him, contrarily to Jess with Liz.

[stan4]

9 hours ago, marineg said:

Not a punishment, but what about when Lorelai, hearing that Paris had sex and not Rory, sings "I've got the good kid".

Not to mention that Michel was gay, but forced in the closet because of his sexual orientation.

Man.

Your comment about the punishment for sex was great.

Don't forget when Rory has "no strings attached" sex with Logan and winds up drunk and crying on the bathroom floor.

 

I always hated that they decided to make Michel gay.  As a straight guy, he was hilarious and quirky.  As a gay guy, he is a tired, bothersome cliche.

This was one of the WORST things about that pig dog revival.

10 hours ago, marineg said:

 

 

I never thought that anyone was physically abusive with Jess though. I just think that she was an overall shitty mother who didn't care much about her kid, and didn't give him a very reliable mother. Which explains his behaviour of not trusting anyone. 

And SH wasn't welcoming in the least, or understanding.

 

 

Liz loved Jess.  Liz just loved Liz and Liz adventures in Liz world more.

 

 

No one in Stars Hollow did or said anything remotely rude or unwelcoming to Jess until AFTER he showed his turd ways.

[marineg]

9 hours ago, stan4 said:

Liz loved Jess.  Liz just loved Liz and Liz adventures in Liz world more.

I never doubted that she loved her son. But loving and caring for someone is very different.

9 hours ago, stan4 said:

No one in Stars Hollow did or said anything remotely rude or unwelcoming to Jess until AFTER he showed his turd ways.

And SH throw a "we hate Jess" town meeting after only a few days of being in town. It all started when he drew a chalk outline of a dead person in front of Taylor's house, and then people added with their own complaints and theories. Lorelai's joke at the end, which seems to suggest that they are making up a few things and exaggerating Jess' "bad' behaviour.

TAYLOR: The charges against your nephew are numerous. He stole the 'save the bridge' money...
LUKE: He gave that back.
TAYLOR: He stole a gnome from Babette's garden.
LUKE: Pierpont was also returned.
MISS PATTY: He hooted one of my dance classes.
FRAN: He took a garden hose from my yard.
MAN: My son said he set off the fire alarms at school last week.
LORELAI: I heard he controls the weather and wrote the screenplay to Glitter.

Yes he pulled pranks left and right and did nothing to fit in. But SH is a town. Not a private club, or school, or anything. If he lived anywhere else, no one would bat an eye.

[readster]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I never doubted that she loved her son. But loving and caring for someone is very different.

And SH throw a "we hate Jess" town meeting after only a few days of being in town. It all started when he drew a chalk outline of a dead person in front of Taylor's house, and then people added with their own complaints and theories. Lorelai's joke at the end, which seems to suggest that they are making up a few things and exaggerating Jess' "bad' behaviour.

TAYLOR: The charges against your nephew are numerous. He stole the 'save the bridge' money...
LUKE: He gave that back.
TAYLOR: He stole a gnome from Babette's garden.
LUKE: Pierpont was also returned.
MISS PATTY: He hooted one of my dance classes.
FRAN: He took a garden hose from my yard.
MAN: My son said he set off the fire alarms at school last week.
LORELAI: I heard he controls the weather and wrote the screenplay to Glitter.

Yes he pulled pranks left and right and did nothing to fit in. But SH is a town. Not a private club, or school, or anything. If he lived anywhere else, no one would bat an eye.

I also agree, and Miss Patty's comment I wanted Luke to reply: "He's a teenager and so was your dance class." But I agree Jess was all: "I hate this small Fing town and I'm going to show that I hate it even if everything I do is like a 12 year old." 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

TAYLOR: The charges against your nephew are numerous. He stole the 'save the bridge' money...
LUKE: He gave that back.
TAYLOR: He stole a gnome from Babette's garden.
LUKE: Pierpont was also returned.
MISS PATTY: He hooted one of my dance classes.
FRAN: He took a garden hose from my yard.
MAN: My son said he set off the fire alarms at school last week.
LORELAI: I heard he controls the weather and wrote the screenplay to Glitter.

Yes he pulled pranks left and right and did nothing to fit in. But SH is a town. Not a private club, or school, or anything. If he lived anywhere else, no one would bat an eye.

They might bat an eye at him stealing the "save the bridge" money. And, I don't know where you went to school, but kids got in big trouble if they got caught pulling fire alarms.

[marineg]

43 minutes ago, readster said:

I also agree, and Miss Patty's comment I wanted Luke to reply: "He's a teenager and so was your dance class." But I agree Jess was all: "I hate this small Fing town and I'm going to show that I hate it even if everything I do is like a 12 year old." 

He definitely behaved like a 12yo. But that can be said of many teenagers.

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They might bat an eye at him stealing the "save the bridge" money. And, I don't know where you went to school, but kids got in big trouble if they got caught pulling fire alarms.

From the comment Lorelai made and the way the conversation went, I felt like the "He took a garden hose from my yard" and "My son said he set off the fire alarms at school last week" were more witch-hunt and less actual things he might have done. 

But if a kid did pull the fire alarm, they would get into trouble with the school. Maybe get a lecture from the fire department. Not have a town meeting dedicated to how to deal with them. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Oh, I don't think anyone is arguing this.  It's a statement on the Palladino's views of sex.  It was never paired with anything even vaguely pleasant!

I think I disagree. I think they used sex as a catalyst for drama, yes. But I think many of the situations were supposed to have us judging the ones with the more conservative sexual attitude. The meeting with the minister? We were supposed to be on Rory’s side. Lindsey’s Mom yelling? Poor Rory!!!

I think Miss Patty was portrayed as having a  very active sex life without any drama and maybe Babette as well. Lorelai also had sexual relationships with Jason and Alex, seemingly without drama.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, marineg said:

But if a kid did pull the fire alarm, they would get into trouble with the school. Maybe get a lecture from the fire department. Not have a town meeting dedicated to how to deal with them. 

But, to be fair, 3/4 of the stuff they discuss at town meetings wouldn't be discussed at town meetings.  For instance, whether or not Luke and Lorelai are allowed to date. Town meetings are boring.  Unless you're on the selectboard, or you have a specific agenda item you want to ring in on, you're not going to go hang out at them.  And anything that is going to be open for townwide vote would have been announced beforehand.  And, Rory's vote is not going to be counted in the first few seasons.

[marineg]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, to be fair, 3/4 of the stuff they discuss at town meetings wouldn't be discussed at town meetings.  For instance, whether or not Luke and Lorelai are allowed to date. Town meetings are boring.  Unless you're on the selectboard, or you have a specific agenda item you want to ring in on, you're not going to go hang out at them.  And anything that is going to be open for townwide vote would have been announced beforehand.  And, Rory's vote is not going to be counted in the first few seasons.

Don't get me started on town meetings. Some of them were fun, but some were way out of bounds. The whole Luke/Lorelai thing, with the ribbons and all. Totally crazy.

[chessiegal]

23 minutes ago, marineg said:

Don't get me started on town meetings. Some of them were fun, but some were way out of bounds. The whole Luke/Lorelai thing, with the ribbons and all. Totally crazy.

But that's why it is so funny and entertaining! Love the quirky town and their inhabitants.

[stan4]

4 hours ago, marineg said:

 

And SH throw a "we hate Jess" town meeting after only a few days of being in town. It all started when he drew a chalk outline of a dead person in front of Taylor's house, and then people added with their own complaints and theories. Lorelai's joke at the end, which seems to suggest that they are making up a few things and exaggerating Jess' "bad' behaviour.

TAYLOR: The charges against your nephew are numerous. He stole the 'save the bridge' money...
LUKE: He gave that back.
TAYLOR: He stole a gnome from Babette's garden.
LUKE: Pierpont was also returned.
MISS PATTY: He hooted one of my dance classes.
FRAN: He took a garden hose from my yard.
MAN: My son said he set off the fire alarms at school last week.
LORELAI: I heard he controls the weather and wrote the screenplay to Glitter.

Yes he pulled pranks left and right and did nothing to fit in. But SH is a town. Not a private club, or school, or anything. If he lived anywhere else, no one would bat an eye.

So he made a general nuisance of himself and the quirky town reacted? Shocker.

They did it to everyone who displeased them.  Abandoning Luke when that weirdo Brandon worked for him, ganging up against Dean, gossiping about Christopher in season 1 and then being less than welcoming in season 7, etc.

 

Btw, I'm a huge prankster, and aside from the outline thing (which was hilarious), nothing else he did was remotely prank-like.  It was theft.

 

And the spirit of pranks is supposed to be funny teasing, sometimes even lovingly.  His was malice and boredom and disrespect.

2 hours ago, marineg said:

Don't get me started on town meetings. Some of them were fun, but some were way out of bounds. The whole Luke/Lorelai thing, with the ribbons and all. Totally crazy.

I think they were meant to be ridiculous (from our perspective and that of the protagonist).

Which is why Lorelai went.  Entertainment.  And Mia was excited to go.  And various boyfriends express interest/disbelief.

 

Like a sideshow.

Edited May 17, 2018 by stan4