One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Melancholy]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

 

I think Emily was upset because they only found out Lorelai was in labor because she left them a note (presumably so they would miss the entire thing) rather than calling them to let them know what was happening.  

Also, I have to believe that Emily was scared out of her mind about her under aged daughter getting in a cab to deliver her baby. That's terrifying. Kelly Bishop's tone was partly panic turned to anger. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Honestly, I think this was very much a two-way street. There were many times that I thought Lorelai was unspeakably rude to her parents. She did an interview where she compared her mom unfavorably to notable world dictators! She embarrassed them in front of their guests multiple times. 

Yes!  She gave an interview for a magazine where she compared her mother to Pol Pot!  The guy helped exterminate nearly a quarter of the population in Cambodia!  I know it was all treated in a very light manner by the show, but that's actually horrible.  I do agree that Lorelai, Emily and Richard were caught in a very bad cycle.  Of course, part of that was the fact that the writers refused to let them escape that cycle, or otherwise grow up.      

Edited August 9, 2017 by txhorns79

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

She gave an interview for a magazine where she compared her mother to Pol Pot!  The guy helped exterminate nearly a quarter of the population in Cambodia!  I know it was all treated in a very light manner by the show, but that's actually horrible.

Yes!  I loved that the ballerina who was staying with Emily called her out on that crap, too.

I feel the same way about people using the terms 'Hitler' and 'Nazi' so casually now, btw.

[shron17]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Emily was upset because they only found out Lorelai was in labor because she left them a note (presumably so they would miss the entire thing) rather than calling them to let them know what was happening.  

Okay.  But still not seeing how this justifies screaming at your 16-year-old daughter who is about to give birth.  I mean, come on.  Lorelai and Emily's whole relationship consists of you did this to me so I'll do that to you.  This is not a dynamic any adult should continue with a 16-year-old.

[glorie]

On Tuesday, August 08, 2017 at 0:33 PM, WhoaWhoKnew said:

I think Rory missed her calling as an event planner. She did really well with that DAR crap Emily had her doing.

Yes, Rory would be an amazing society wife - just perfect for Logan.

So, maybe that is the answer on eternal question: "Jess or Logan"?.  Rory is pregnant with Logan, her career doesn't go anywhere, she is selfish enough to dismiss Odette's feelings, and she and Logan care for each other ( I think, that they do).

On the other hand Jess would despise and mock "high society" - which might be a problem, if he would help to raise Logan's child. There would be an eternal conflict (on so many levels) between child's father and stepfather. Although ASP mentioned in interview, that Jess was Rory's true soul-mate, Logan and Rory would have had such a comfortable relationship. And Rory is at the time of AYITL not in love with Jess any more (although that might have changed with the time).

Besides, Rory is passive. She will go with the flow. Marrying the child's daddy and be very successful wife of the rich man would be just so easy.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Okay.  But still not seeing how this justifies screaming at your 16-year-old daughter who is about to give birth.  I mean, come on.  Lorelai and Emily's whole relationship consists of you did this to me so I'll do that to you.  This is not a dynamic any adult should continue with a 16-year-old.

I think it was more like yelling, justified by Lorelai behaving extremely irresponsibly in going off to the hospital alone to give birth.  I agree that they both should have taken steps to end the dynamic. 

[shron17]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree that they both should have taken steps to end the dynamic.

Exactly.  When a parent has that dynamic with their kid, who do you think perpetuated it in the first place?  And who should take responsibility for ending it?  Of course Lorelai didn't always treat her parents kindly or fairly.  When you have a teenager that often comes with the territory.

[glorie]

Quote

10 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Okay.  But still not seeing how this justifies screaming at your 16-year-old daughter who is about to give birth.  I mean, come on.  Lorelai and Emily's whole relationship consists of you did this to me so I'll do that to you.  This is not a dynamic any adult should continue with a 16-year-old.

I think it was more like yelling, justified by Lorelai behaving extremely irresponsibly in going off to the hospital alone to give birth.  I agree that they both should have taken steps to end the dynamic. 

It was more about Emily's fear for Lorelai's (and Rory's) safety. Emily is controlling by nature, but in that case she was scared to death for Lorelai. Can you imagine your 16- years old child going to labor alone?

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, shron17 said:

Exactly.  When a parent has that dynamic with their kid, who do you think perpetuated it in the first place?  And who should take responsibility for ending it?  Of course Lorelai didn't always treat her parents kindly or fairly.  When you have a teenager that often comes with the territory.

Perhaps. I think all parties are wrong in this scenario, for sure. I think that Lorelai had some very valid reasons for pulling away from her parents, but I also think that she might have separated herself from them too much, in the sense that Rory didn't get to know her grandparents besides the occasional visit once or twice a year (and didn't Lorelai only start that when Rory was a little older?), and Lorelai did the very minimum to allow that connection to be built. Sure, it was nice of her to let Rory spend once a year with her grandparents, but I assume Lorelai had spent the rest of the time bitching about them to Rory, giving her a very skewed bias about them, and it didn't help Rory get to know her family, especially with her deadbeat father. 

Just a very unhealthy dynamic in the family altogether. It just started a vicious cycle of a dysfunctional way of parenting. Lorelai became too much of a friend and less of a mom because of her rebelling against Emily and Richard's more controlling way of parenting. 

Honestly, Lorelai taking off with baby Rory and not talking to her parents for a while after that (I think it's at least a few months before she initiates contact) is very immature and a dickish thing to do. Emily was helping to take care of Rory around the time that she packed up and left. That's more than a teenage rebellion move; that could be very dangerous, leaving home with a baby, without any source of income, no home, nothing to insure that you'll be able to provide for your child. Lorelai got extremely lucky to have found somewhere to stay; maybe she's lucky because she had Rory and had someone take pity on her. 

I think Lorelai has every right to move out of her parents' once she turned of age, even with a baby in tow. But the fact that Lorelai didn't have a plan and seemed to just pack up and leave is not something that she should have done. She should have had a plan. No matter how bad the dynamic in the house is, she needed to think of her daughter, and she didn't. She got really, really lucky there, and I can't recall if she ever mentioned how lucky she got. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think Lorelai has every right to move out of her parents' once she turned of age, even with a baby in tow. But the fact that Lorelai didn't have a plan and seemed to just pack up and leave is not something that she should have done. She should have had a plan. No matter how bad the dynamic in the house is, she needed to think of her daughter, and she didn't. She got really, really lucky there, and I can't recall if she ever mentioned how lucky she got. 

The job at the Independence was a fantasy position.  Not only did it come with a benevolent mother figure for Lorelai, she also got free room and board along with a job where apparently no one cared that she had an infant/toddler with her while working. 

[Melancholy]

I do think it's typical of parents to scream at their kid after they've done something arguably dangerous or something that understandably puts the parent in fear for their mortal safety. Even if the kid is not in a "good" place for hearing it. Emily is an odd duck but I can picture most mothers acting just like Emily did in the delivery flashbacks. Yes, Rory wasn't delivering a baby but Lorelai screamed at Rory for staying out all night with Dean even though Rory was fine and repeatedly saying that they didn't have sex or break any rules but the curfew and purely by accident. The mama bear protective instinct easily turns to fury which can be directed at the foolhardy child once the parent finds the child. 

[Taryn74]

59 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

that could be very dangerous, leaving home with a baby, without any source of income, no home, nothing to insure that you'll be able to provide for your child. Lorelai got extremely lucky to have found somewhere to stay; maybe she's lucky because she had Rory and had someone take pity on her. 

Oh that brings me to the fascinating thought - what if Lorelai had just run away from home at 17 without a baby?  (As in, she never had a baby, not that she would have abandoned Rory LOL.)  Would Mia have been so willing to take her in if she were just an underage runaway?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

Okay.  But still not seeing how this justifies screaming at your 16-year-old daughter who is about to give birth.  I mean, come on.  Lorelai and Emily's whole relationship consists of you did this to me so I'll do that to you.  This is not a dynamic any adult should continue with a 16-year-old.

Should she have yelled/screamed at her? No. Is it at least somewhat understandable? To me, yes. People react in ways they shouldn't at times. Parents yell when a more measured response is more appropriate. It felt real, to me, not abusive.

[Kohola3]

Yell, don't yell, doesn't matter to me.  But what the hell was the whole "wrong shoes"  obsession that Richard was nattering on about.  What are the "wrong shoes for this" anyway?  Aren't all shoes made for walking, especially men's shoes?  Is he normally carried around in a sedan chair or something?

[Melancholy]

Lol. My brother had a pair of nice dress shoes that he often complained about having to walk in. He'd be all, "I wore the wrong shoes for walking. I just wore these thinking I'd just sit in the restaurant, not go for a walk after the meal or park out of the way." I do kind of side eye him because it's not like he has to wear high heels but his discomfort was real. I think guys can just buy the wrong nice shoes, planning to break them in, but they never do and they're stuck with the shoes past the return date.

[Taryn74]

Ha ha ha!  I do think his shoes were supposed to be uncomfortable, for whatever reason.  I just went and rewatched the scene to see if they actually show what kind of shoes he's wearing (I was thinking maybe he was in his house slippers and Emily rushed him out the door as-is) and we only get a couple of glimpses but they look like dress shoes.  He walks very gingerly the entire time and when he and Emily finally sit down, he groans like his feet are legitimately hurting him.

[Kohola3]

I say throw him in a pair of 3 inch heels and see how he likes it.

[shron17]

4 hours ago, glorie said:

It was more about Emily's fear for Lorelai's (and Rory's) safety. Emily is controlling by nature, but in that case she was scared to death for Lorelai. Can you imagine your 16- years old child going to labor alone?

Actually, my unpopular opinion on this subject is that Emily was mad about not being included, not scared for Lorelai.  Lorelai got herself to the hospital and was being cared for by staff there; she wasn't alone.  It was her choice to go alone and I really don't think Lorelai's choice to take a cab to the hospital when she went into labor put her or Rory in any danger.  If my daughter went into labor and chose to not include me, I would respect that, in the same way I respected her wish to not have me present for medical examinations once she reached a certain age.  I would try my best to be supportive and to make sure she had good medical care but understand that it is her choice who to have in the delivery room.   Also, I don't see how yelling at your daughter as she's in pain with labor and being wheeled into the delivery room to have her first baby is in any way comparable to yelling at your daughter when she comes home after staying out all night. 

[Kohola3]

56 minutes ago, shron17 said:

It was her choice to go alone and I really don't think Lorelai's choice to take a cab to the hospital when she went into labor put her or Rory in any danger. 

And since we were never show (nor were there hints) and how frequently Lorelai was berated for nine months, that solo trip may have been her way of avoiding any "serves you right as you writhe in pain" comments.  We can only speculate on how good or bad the pregnancy atmosphere was. Since Emily tends to do very hurtful things (see:  Big Head Lorelai) I tend to assume Lorelai got a daily dose of "you screwed up".

[shron17]

21 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Since Emily tends to do very hurtful things (see:  Big Head Lorelai) I tend to assume Lorelai got a daily dose of "you screwed up".

Exactly.  If Emily had been a source of comfort Lorelai would have wanted her there.

[txhorns79]

Quote

And since we were never show (nor were there hints) and how frequently Lorelai was berated for nine months, that solo trip may have been her way of avoiding any "serves you right as you writhe in pain" comments.  We can only speculate on how good or bad the pregnancy atmosphere was. Since Emily tends to do very hurtful things (see:  Big Head Lorelai) I tend to assume Lorelai got a daily dose of "you screwed up".

Eh, "Big Head Lorelai" was a one off joke at the beginning of an episode and never mentioned again.  As far as I can see from what we were shown, Lorelai had a decent life at home where her parents provided for her and her baby.  This is despite the fact that Lorelai didn't marry Chris, even though her parents really, really wanted that.  Now I can agree that Emily and Richard can be overbearing, rude and are not always interested in listening to opinions that are not their own, but for me, it all came down to that scene in Christopher Returns where Richard asks Lorelai what horrible things he and Emily had done to deserve her treatment and she can't cite anything.     

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Eh, "Big Head Lorelai" was a one off joke at the beginning of an episode and never mentioned again.  As far as I can see from what we were shown, Lorelai had a decent life at home where her parents provided for her and her baby.  This is despite the fact that Lorelai didn't marry Chris, even though her parents really, really wanted that.  Now I can agree that Emily and Richard can be overbearing, rude and are not always interested in listening to opinions that are not their own, but for me, it all came down to that scene in Christopher Returns where Richard asks Lorelai what horrible things he and Emily had done to deserve her treatment and she can't cite anything.     

Would he have listened if she had? Emily went off on Lorelai in Emily In Wonderland after seeing the potting shed and Lorelai began by saying she was very unhappy but Emily storms off. Lorelai talks with Rory later how she talks to Emily and thinks she's getting through but Emily won't listen. When Emily, Richard and Lorelai are talking about Rory at her 21st birthday party Richard says they've lost Rory but Emily says they haven't lost her until she comes home pregnant. Richard thought they lost Lorelai before then?  In Rory's Birthday Parties Rory apologized for her outburst, Emily didn't want to hear it and goes cold later Rory invites her to her Star Hollow party but Emily's still cold and says they have plans. Lorelai tried to convince her to come to the party but Emily won't. Rory made a mistake and Emily was immediately cold and unforgiving. She wouldn't accept Rory's apology. Lorelai tries to explain point out that Emily invited all of those kids without asking Rory and she didn't want them at her party. Emily insists it was good manners something Rory doesn't have. One mess up and Emily won't even admit maybe she did something wrong, no its all Rory's fault. Lorelai insist she's doing to Rory the same thing Emily used to do to her control her and when that doesn't work shut her out.  Emily continues to act like the victim until Lorelai finally goes off on her that Rory needed her to accept her apology and come to the party. Ending with Lorelai saying she gave up and Emily responding if she had a dollar for every time Lorelai gave up Lorelai cuts in that she could pay for the party. Emily doesn't responded. Nothing is ever Emily's fault. She's blames everything on Lorelai. When she and Lorelai got into that fight in Rory's Dance, Emily disinvites her to the party and even during the call Emily goes off on how unacceptable Lorelai treated her.  Again not seeing anything she did that was wrong. Lorelai has made comments about being a difficult child. How lonely, she was growing up. When she went to talk to her mother about veils Lorelai explains why she didn't tell Emily about her engagement about how she always worries Emily is going to make her feel bad about it and if something bad happens she afraid Emily's going to say I told you so. She does admit maybe that's not always fair and that she probably adds to the circle she and Lorelai get into. We've also had Lorelai talk about getting the first invitation to her parents' Christmas party after she left and how if she had gone maybe things would have been different and meditating between Lane and her mom to make sure that doesn't happen. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Would he have listened if she had?

Maybe he would have, maybe not.  Lorelai had nothing at the ready, so we will never know.  As far as I recall, Lorelai never was able to cite to anything, except her general unhappiness with the situation.  As I have gotten older, I saw the situation as Lorelai being an immature, unhappy person who took out her unhappiness on her parents.  I do think there were issues with how Emily and Richard treated Lorelai, and they were not perfect parents by any means.  I just don't think the show was really ever able to justify Lorelai running away and cutting them off for so many years.         

[elang4]

14 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Maybe he would have, maybe not.  Lorelai had nothing at the ready, so we will never know.  As far as I recall, Lorelai never was able to cite to anything, except her general unhappiness with the situation.  As I have gotten older, I saw the situation as Lorelai being an immature, unhappy person who took out her unhappiness on her parents.  I do think there were issues with how Emily and Richard treated Lorelai, and they were not perfect parents by any means.  I just don't think the show was really ever able to justify Lorelai running away and cutting them off for so many years.         

I don't blame Lorelai for running away with Rory. I can totally understand that she wanted to raise Rory how she wanted and not surrounded by maids and her parents, who probably told her a lot that she was doing it the wrong way. As for cutting for out, I guess she could have made more of an effort. It was obvious that Rory and Richard had a lot in common and they could have built that relationship a lot earlier if Lorelai hadn't kept Rory from seeing them.

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I don't blame Lorelai for running away with Rory. I can totally understand that she wanted to raise Rory how she wanted and not surrounded by maids and her parents, who probably told her a lot that she was doing it the wrong way. As for cutting for out, I guess she could have made more of an effort. It was obvious that Rory and Richard had a lot in common and they could have built that relationship a lot earlier if Lorelai hadn't kept Rory from seeing them.

But, do you think if she wasn't immediately able to find a job that gave her free room and board and let her keep her child with her while she worked, would she have gone back home, or raised Rory as homeless?  Remember, she didn't even have a HS diploma. 

[shron17]

36 minutes ago, elang4 said:

As for cutting for out, I guess she could have made more of an effort.

I agree somewhat.  But Emily was so negative towards Lorelai--we see that over and over in the show.  The negativity was already there before she ran off with Rory, that just made it worse.  In the scene where Emily finds the note she's complaining about the stroller .  Lorelai was very young and trying to do something very difficult by raising Rory on her own, and I completely understand why she didn't want to be around people who were always telling her she was wrong.    

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, do you think if she wasn't immediately able to find a job that gave her free room and board and let her keep her child with her while she worked, would she have gone back home, or raised Rory as homeless?  Remember, she didn't even have a HS diploma. 

We don't know how much money Lorelai had saved before she left or if she had a plan for finding a job.  We don't know if the Independence Inn was the first place she went or the hundredth.  We do know Rory was well taken care of and didn't want for much as she grew up in Stars Hollow, and that Lorelai got her GED, advanced in her job and completed a degree in business.  That's good enough for me.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't blame Lorelai for running away with Rory. I can totally understand that she wanted to raise Rory how she wanted and not surrounded by maids and her parents, who probably told her a lot that she was doing it the wrong way.

Even if they were telling her what to do, it makes sense in the context of they being her parents and she being a 16/17 year old.       

[Crs97]

That even came out with Emily saying Lorelai was a child and Lorelei saying she stopped being a child when the pregnancy test came back positive.

It was a ridiculous fantasy that Lorelei ran away with a baby at age 16 and landed where she was.  In the real world she wouldn't have met the perfect person (who didn't call her parents when she found them?!?) and landed the perfect job.  If we ever heard on the news about a 16 year old girl with a baby being homeless and found out she ran away because her wealthy parents sometimes said mean things to her, we would talk about how immature and selfish she was to risk her child.  In the real world, Lorelai would have sucked it up at least until she graduated high school.  Her daughter would have been safe while she made a long-term plan for their future.  Then again, long-term planning never became one of her strengths.

[Kohola3]

15 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Even if they were telling her what to do, it makes sense in the context of they being her parents and she being a 16/17 year old. 

Well, again, we don't know in what form that "advice" was given.  We have seen how cold and nasty Emily could be when crossed.  Was it parental guidance or a constant tirade of complaints?  Andromeda331 gave a lot of examples of Emily's attitude toward what she did not approve of and her refusal to listen to Lorelai when explanations were attempted.  A teenager would certainly amplify the these instances into dramatic situations but it doesn't mean they didn't exist.  

I don't see the elder Gilmores as warm or supporting in any way.  They couldn't be bothered to ever learn the name or Rory's best friend even when it was repeated to them ("that Asian girl") and don't even get me started on that horrible meat market party with all of the Yale boys. 

But we just don't know how it played out when Rory was an infant in their home.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't see the elder Gilmores as warm or supporting in any way.

To give one example of support, they provided a home and necessities for their daughter and her child when said daughter became pregnant as a teenager.   

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

In the real world she wouldn't have met the perfect person (who didn't call her parents when she found them?!?) and landed the perfect job

Not only gave her the perfect job and a place to live, but didn't take advantage of her.  I don't know if Lorelai ever realized how lucky she was.

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

To give one example of support, they provided a home and necessities for their daughter and her child when said daughter became pregnant as a teenager.   

Yep.,  They didn't demand an abortion, or even suggest it.  They didn't try to get her to give Rory up as far as we know. They didn't send her away to a "relative" for a few months and then bring her back.  Richard hid the fct from Emily that Lorelai borrowed her sweater and skipped school.  It seems to me that all the info we have on Lorelai growing up is from Lorelai herself.  We never get it from Richard and Emily's POV, barring them finding the note that she had run away.  And, I don't think "Lorelai, please acknowledge that you have heard us" is emotional abuse.  Nor is expecting her to put a stroller away.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

To give one example of support, they provided a home and necessities for their daughter and her child when said daughter became pregnant as a teenager.   

Yes, they did great in physical support.  But emotional support is also very important to children.  I understand Lorelai had a very independent, stubborn personality that was difficult for her parents to deal with, but if a parent doesn't make any effort to support their child emotionally they're going to create a very unhappy person.  Also, we saw Lorelai apologize to Rory several times for her mistakes, but I don't remember seeing Emily admit to any mistake let alone apologize.  It seems to me throughout the show and probably before, both Emily and Richard had very little concern for Lorelai's feelings, happiness and general well being.

[Lady Calypso]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yep.,  They didn't demand an abortion, or even suggest it.  They didn't try to get her to give Rory up as far as we know. They didn't send her away to a "relative" for a few months and then bring her back.  Richard hid the fct from Emily that Lorelai borrowed her sweater and skipped school.  It seems to me that all the info we have on Lorelai growing up is from Lorelai herself.  We never get it from Richard and Emily's POV, barring them finding the note that she had run away.  And, I don't think "Lorelai, please acknowledge that you have heard us" is emotional abuse.  Nor is expecting her to put a stroller away.

I agree. I think, even through all of Emily and Richard's faults when it came to parenting, there's no denying that they didn't love their daughter wholeheartedly. They could have very well been like Christopher's parents, or worse (and I even feel bad for the guy that he had such a shitty family, and I don't really like him all that much!). They could have left Lorelai to fend for herself. They could have tossed her out. They could have done so many things that would completely justify Lorelai not talking to them for the rest of her life. Were they controlling? Absolutely. Could they be quite mean and cold? Yes, they could. Can I see why Lorelai wanted to parent Rory on her own, without her parents taking over? Yes. But the point is that they loved Lorelai enough to still be there for her when she needed them. They helped take care of Rory when she was a baby, before Lorelai took off. They provided for their daughter and their grandchild, even after Lorelai took off and almost severed all ties with them. They never gave up on her or Rory, and I think that goes to show how neither Emily/Richard were true monsters. Monsters are the Haydens (sans Christopher, because he was a deadbeat but not a total monster). 

I think what Lorelai eventually realized is even through the dysfunctional relationship and how Lorelai had some good reasons for leaving, she was still acting out in a form of rebellion when she was 17/18 and that she might have made some wrong choices too. Because Lorelai still ended up needing her parents, and she knew that she could still count on them, their relationship wasn't completely destroyed. Even though all parties hurt each other over and over, they still loved each other enough to be there when someone needed it. 

[Guest]

I don't think you can look at Emily's treatment of Lorelai (such as being unforgiving, etc) in later years without looking at the context of Lorelai having cut her out of her and Rory's life for years, returning only when she needed/wanted money.  We don't know fully what the relationship was like before that, but the wound from your daughter running away from home with your granddaughter (we know she was in bed for a month afterward) would be a deep one, and would definitely impact your future interactions.  

[DoubleUTeeEff]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

To give one example of support, they provided a home and necessities for their daughter and her child when said daughter became pregnant as a teenager.   

Isn't that basically saying, "they didn't kick out their pregnant teenage daughter?" Isn't that a basic requirement of parenting, not to kick out your kids even if they do something you don't like? What if it were along the lines of "they didn't kick out their gay son?" I presume they were going to support her until she graduated college so that's 22 years of support they had signed on for. I get that they might not want another kid in the house but still...they were rich enough to have options and still provide basic care for their daughter and granddaughter for a time. I'm not sure they get extra points for that.

[shron17]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

They never gave up on her or Rory, and I think that goes to show how neither Emily/Richard were true monsters. Monsters are the Haydens (sans Christopher, because he was a deadbeat but not a total monster). 

I guess it depends on your definition of monsters.  It seems to me Emily and Richard were never going to be happy with Lorelai unless she wanted the same things they wanted for her.  Maybe I'm just lucky I was raised by parents who, though not perfect by any means, never told their kids who they should be.  And sure, the things they wanted for her were not so terrible and she could have gone along with them long enough to still get where she wanted to be, and if it weren't for Rory she probably would have.  But I still think one that's one of the worst things you can do to your kid, especially once they reach the age Lorelai was when she left. Imagine trying to raise a child in such a toxic environment that requires fighting constantly just to be who you are?  Parenting is demanding and hard enough without all that drama, and I think Rory's childhood would have been much less happy.  I always thought Lorelai left so she could be the kind of parent to Rory that she wanted to be, and I respect that choice.   

 

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I don't think you can look at Emily's treatment of Lorelai (such as being unforgiving, etc) in later years without looking at the context of Lorelai having cut her out of her and Rory's life for years, returning only when she needed/wanted money.  We don't know fully what the relationship was like before that, but the wound from your daughter running away from home with your granddaughter (we know she was in bed for a month afterward) would be a deep one, and would definitely impact your future interactions.  

I think we can tell quite a bit about their relationship by the way that Richard and Emily reacted when Lorelai left. First off, Lorelai was months away from being free and clear of her parents, if she wanted. Many parents would have taken that as a wake up call--if their almost adult daughter left, should they maybe make changes in the way they habitually treat her?  But they still blamed everything on Lorelai, even when they were back in touch. They could have visited regularly to check on her and Rory, made sure they had everything they needed and gone about trying to rebuild their fractured relationship. They were the parents, the adults with more maturity and could have learned from what happened instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over. Instead, Emily wished Mia had sent Lorelai home like an errant child and more or less continued to treat her like she was a child throughout the series.

Edited August 10, 2017 by shron17

[Kohola3]

Quote

To give one example of support, they provided a home and necessities for their daughter and her child when said daughter became pregnant as a teenager. 

I guess I don't see that as support.  That's simply basic parenting 101.  And I have to wonder how much of that is "How would it look to our society friends if we tossed her out?" more than support.   Were they the Haydens?  God, no - they were horrible.  But if Emily has a meltdown over the whole First Cup of Tea scenario, imagine how she'd have been treated if they shipped Lorelai off or kicked her out.  It's not like it could have been kept a secret.

 

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

They provided for their daughter and their grandchild, even after Lorelai took off and almost severed all ties with them.

What exactly did they do once Lorelai had left?  They saw each other once or twice year on holidays.  I don't think that indicates that there was a lot of nurturing, providiing, or understanding going on.  Was  Lorelai to blame as well?  Absolutely.  But it seems to me if the elder Gilmores were truly warm and caring parents/grandparents the estrangement wouldn't have lasted as long as it did.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

What exactly did they do once Lorelai had left?  They saw each other once or twice year on holidays.  I don't think that indicates that there was a lot of nurturing, providiing, or understanding going on.  Was  Lorelai to blame as well?  Absolutely.  But it seems to me if the elder Gilmores were truly warm and caring parents/grandparents the estrangement wouldn't have lasted as long as it did.

But we know that, at least initially, Emily and Richard had no idea where Lorelai was.  By the time Lorelai did reach out, things could have been in a far different place. 

I'm not crucifying Lorelai or saying E&R are great parents. It's just a stretch, to me, to say Lorelai was justified in running away with a baby with nowhere to go until she stumbled across the magical Independence Inn because her parents were emotionally unavailable.  And I think the act of running away and cutting off all communications would have an effect on your relationship with your parents for the rest of your lives.  It's not a minor thing she did.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, deaja said:

But we know that, at least initially, Emily and Richard had no idea where Lorelai was.  By the time Lorelai did reach out, things could have been in a far different place. 

I'm not crucifying Lorelai or saying E&R are great parents. It's just a stretch, to me, to say Lorelai was justified in running away with a baby with nowhere to go until she stumbled across the magical Independence Inn because her parents were emotionally unavailable.  And I think the act of running away and cutting off all communications would have an effect on your relationship with your parents for the rest of your lives.  It's not a minor thing she did.

I think it would have made Lorelai look better, if, instead of running away in the night, if she had gone out to lunch at the Independence with her parents (and baby Rory) and snuck off for a few minutes and spoken to Mia about a job.  Then, told her parents she was leaving, that she had a job, and a place to live. She could tell them a few days later so they wouldn't amek the connection and she could have some time before informing them of her whereabouts. But, anyway, that would have been Lorelai moving out, not Lorelai running away.  And it would have had her having a plan, not going out into the dark night with a baby and probably very little money.

E&R still would have been hurt.  She still would have been cutting them off. But, she would have been being more responsible about ti, and they may not have worried so much had she told them she was leaving and that she had a job and place to live all set.  They would still have worried, of course, they're parents.  But, it's a matter of degree.

If my 18 year old daughter (assuming I had one) took off without saying anything (I know she left a note), with no plan that I knew of, baby or not, I'd be worried.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Isn't that basically saying, "they didn't kick out their pregnant teenage daughter?" Isn't that a basic requirement of parenting, not to kick out your kids even if they do something you don't like? What if it were along the lines of "they didn't kick out their gay son?" I presume they were going to support her until she graduated college so that's 22 years of support they had signed on for. I get that they might not want another kid in the house but still...they were rich enough to have options and still provide basic care for their daughter and granddaughter for a time. I'm not sure they get extra points for that.

I think there would have to be an a lot of entitlement at play to view your parents providing for your teenage self and your baby as some kind of basic parenting duty with which they must comply.  As far as I'm concerned, in a normal scenario, everything your parents do for you past the age of 18 is a gift.  In a scenario like this, where you are a teenager without options, raising a baby, your parents are showing you a lot of love by paying for you and your child's necessities.       

Quote

I'm not crucifying Lorelai or saying E&R are great parents. It's just a stretch, to me, to say Lorelai was justified in running away with a baby with nowhere to go until she stumbled across the magical Independence Inn because her parents were emotionally unavailable.  And I think the act of running away and cutting off all communications would have an effect on your relationship with your parents for the rest of your lives.  It's not a minor thing she did.

I think deaja has it.  Emily and Richard are not the best parents, but to me, it's like Lorelai gave them a big "F" you on her way out the door, and did something that she knew, or should have known, would make them suffer. 

And can I just say I'm loving the discussion!

Edited August 10, 2017 by txhorns79

[glorie]

I feel sorry for Lorelai, because in my opinion she regretted, that she couldn't have attended university (it's in episode where she and Rory visit Harvard, she also freaks out too much when Rory drops out of Yale for a while). 

R&E were quite difficult (but they loved Lorelai anyway) - and Lorelai decided to go away with her infant. But it came with the price.

Had Lorelai endured with her parents for just two more years, she could have studied on university in another city and she could have raised Rory more or less alone. Her parents would pay for the school, for her apartment, for babysitter for Rory (when Lorelai would have classes), and they would give Lorelai some extra money too. She would live in different city and would have an opportunity to raise Rory more or less alone. She would go to classes, but she wouldn't have to work and she would have an opportunity to spend all her free time with Rory.

Yes, Emily would still interfere. She would not be happy with Lorelai's choice of pediatrician or with the crib for Rory. And she would always reproach Lorelai for not marrying Chris and would still blame her for shame she brought to her perfect little life. But besides that, she would really try to help.

What do you think? Would that life be better/easier for Lorelai (and Rory)?

Edited August 11, 2017 by glorie

[Guest]

I think it would have been better/easier, yes.  However, I think teenagers (even at 17/18) aren't going to make rational, well-thought out decisions all the time. Especially when you figure in post-partum hormones on top of regular teenage hormones - it's a recipe for disaster.  Plus Emily and Lorelai are both extremely stubborn and both on the arrogant side - neither of them is going to give an inch and neither is going to realize they're wrong very easily.  So while in hindsight 2 years would pass quickly, it doesn't feel like it when you are living it.  If you have bad memories of your childhood, would you want your child's earliest years to be spent in the same place?  Probably not. Even if your bad memories were overblown and on the dramatic side.

[txhorns79]

What I thought was interesting was how Lorelai truly seemed to have no idea how deeply her actions hurt her parents.  When Richard told her that Emily couldn't get out of bed for a month after Lorelai left, Lorelai seemed entirely taken aback.  I guess it shows how wrong Lorelai was about her parent's feelings towards her, but it just struck me that she had never seemed to ponder how it was for them. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

What I thought was interesting was how Lorelai truly seemed to have no idea how deeply her actions hurt her parents.  When Richard told her that Emily couldn't get out of bed for a month after Lorelai left, Lorelai seemed entirely taken aback.  I guess it shows how wrong Lorelai was about her parent's feelings towards her, but it just struck me that she had never seemed to ponder how it was for them. 

I don't know if that is a sign that she didn't realize how much her parents really did care about her or that she was self-centered and hadn't thought how her actions would impact them.  Likely both.

[my tiffany]

In "That Will Do Pig"  Emily vents to Lorelai on how Trix blames and demeans her for any imperfection or missed expectation.   Due to Emily's insecurities around Pennelyn Lot, I can see her  emulating emulate Trix as the standard Richard adored with a blind eye.  

[andromeda331]

I wish we knew more about Lorelai leaving. We know she stayed for about a year after Rory was born. If it was planned that would make sense saving up money and waiting until she was eighteen. That way she wouldn't have to worry about being sent back. Lorelai could raise her daughter how she wanted to and without impute from her parents.  But that doesn't make sense with Mia and Lorelai's account of her just showing up with Rory saying she needed a job. That makes it sound more like a fight. I can see Lorelai and Emily getting into a big fight and Lorelai deciding she was out of there packed up Rory and left. I can see it being impulse after a fight. But once she left being too stubborn to admit she was wrong and deciding she was going to prove she didn't need her parents help she was going to do it on her own. And to prove to them that she could take care of Rory all on her own without help from anyone. It would also make the most sense. but Emily doesn't sound like she and Lorelai recently had a fight. She yells for Lorelai that their leaving (for the fundraiser Richard and Emily are going to in the Dear Richard and Emily flashback) and remarks about Rory's stroller. If they recently fought it would make sense for Emily to make comment when she's yelling at Lorelai something like "stop pouting or stop" or something. So no fight?

The visits Richard and Emily made to the inn after Lorelai and Rory left don't really make sense since at some point it switched to just holidays. It would make more sense Lorelai and her parents didn't speak then and the holidays would make more sense if they started a few years down the road. Lorelai didn't move into her house much later so why did they stop visiting? This is where it would make sense that Lorelai got an apartment because it would be the final nail in coven that Lorelai isn't coming back. That would make sense for a bigger split after visiting.

[clack]

I don't think that ASP spent more than 15 minutes altogether coming up with her characters' backstories before she began writing the pilot. And as the series went along, the backstories would be adjusted on the fly, depending on the needs of the particular episode.

So, in one episode Luke and Lorelai had been close friends for years, but yet in another episode Lorelai has no idea that Luke had had a long-term girlfriend that he almost married, despite this relationship being common SH knowledge.

This lack of forethought given to backstories is also the reason that the whole Lorelai leaving home with one-year old Rory never quite hung together in retrospect. Their 17 year old daughter leaves home with no money and with a baby in tow-- a baby that Emily and Richard have presumably come to love -- and the elder Gilmores don't look into possible legal action? They never visit their underage daughter and their toddler granddaughter to check out their living conditions, despite their living only a half hours' drive away? Does that sound like Emily and Richard?

And yet ties are not cut altogether: Lorelai and Rory spend their holidays at the Gilmore mansion. Did the holiday visits begin immediately after Lorelai left, or were there some years in between when the elder Gilmores had no contact at all with their baby granddaughter?

I really can't picture how either alternative would have played out -- 17 year old Lorelai and baby coming to Christmas dinner, and the fact that they were living in a shed and living on a maids wages (do they have health insurance? living on government assistance?) not being broached -- or, Emily being reconciled to being totally cut off for a number of years from her granddaughter ( not even photos, say, of Rory's 2nd birthday party?)

It just doesn't add up.

[txhorns79]

Quote

and the fact that they were living in a shed and living on a maids wages (do they have health insurance? living on government assistance?) not being broached

Given the mostly fantasy nature of the maid job at the Independence Inn, I presume Mia paid Lorelai several hundred dollars per hour for her maid position, paid for Lorelai's and Rory's health insurance herself and bought Rory and Lorelai hip/trendy wardrobes every year. 

[Taryn74]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Given the mostly fantasy nature of the maid job at the Independence Inn, I presume Mia paid Lorelai several hundred dollars per hour for her maid position, paid for Lorelai's and Rory's health insurance herself and bought Rory and Lorelai hip/trendy wardrobes every year. 

Ha!

Obviously Emily never knew Lorelai and Rory lived in the potting shed until Rory told her in EiW.  Perhaps she assumed they were staying with someone, splitting the cost of an apartment or small house with someone Lorelai met in SH, that sort of thing?

I can't remember if it's canon or fanon that Lorelai kept all visiting to her and Rory traveling to Hartford, and all the elder Gilmores knew was that they were doing okay and Lorelai was working as a maid.  Emily had never met Mia, and I have to assume if she and Richard had visited the girls at the Inn they would have met Mia before.  So I think that's the most plausible explanation, whether it's actually canon or not.

And I don't even remember if we know how long it was before Lorelai began moving up in jobs at the Inn.  She may have only been a maid for the first couple of years before Mia started moving her up and training her to take over as manager.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I can't remember if it's canon or fanon that Lorelai kept all visiting to her and Rory traveling to Hartford,

At Rory's birthday, Sukie ask Lorelai when her parents had last been there. She said never.  Sukie said "never?" and Lorelai said they used to visit when she lived at the inn, but had never been to the house