One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Melancholy]

In a twisted way, I liked that Dean's final story/last appearance was so horrendous. I disliked him the entire time- I felt very validated by his final impression being that of a bitter, going-nowhere headcase even though most of it was off-screen and he was painted as a great guy in the seasons that actually focused on him. It's much like how I felt validated by Jess's final impressions being that of a terrific person, even though most of that journey took place off-screen and the seasons that actually focused on Jess painted him as a messed-up disaster zone of a guy. I get how it's not "fair" in a real sense. If I was a Dean-fan, I'd be incensed. However, I'm not- and pretty happy that my opinions were so surprisingly validated. 

 

However, it felt like a logical continuation. I do believe that Dean remained bitter and fixated on what could have been with Rory and he'd turn that inappropriate bitterness on Luke, specifically, especially since Luke was dating Lorelai. IMO, Dean was particularly obsessed with Rory. Dean's OTT romantic moves and adoration of Rory, IMO, were not representative of how Dean generally functioned in romantic relationships. See how he treated Lindsay. I conjecture that he's totally a "When have I ever sent flowers to a woman? NEVER! VERY EASY STAT TO REMEMBER!" with women in general, but he's "build a car guy" for RORY.

 

Dean was obsessed with Rory on an individual level as the Golden Girl but also because he was particularly ensorcelled at the Gilmore lifestyle- MILF Lorelai, the dad who showed up to be cool but never to discipline or lay down rules, their quirky pizza, junk food, TV routines at home, how they, led by Lorelai, would dominate any town occasion, the elaborate parties serviced by the inns, the reservoirs of money and elegance and exclusivity just waiting for them at Gilmore Girl discretion to partake. I never thought Dean made much of a sacrifice in getting along with Lorelai or doing the coming out party or even interacting with the elder Gilmores- even if it certainly came with some headaches and humiliations; Dean straight-up wanted to be inducted into the whole shebang on his own terms far afield from just making Rory happy. 

 

Dean didn't feel just rejected by Rory, his first Golden Girl love- although there's that too. He felt excluded from an entire idyllic perfect way of living sitting RIGHT THERE but he was unable to partake and had to go back to living like a regular middle-income, small town person with average-looking parents who lived their average life. In a strange way, I never felt as close to and weirdly sympathetic to Dean as in that scene in To Live and Let Diorama- he was kind of speaking for the audience!

Edited December 24, 2015 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

Dean was obsessed with Rory on an individual level as the Golden Girl but also because he was particularly ensorcelled at the Gilmore lifestyle- MILF Lorelai, the dad who showed up to be cool but never to discipline or lay down rules, their quirky pizza, junk food, TV routines at home, how they, led by Lorelai, would dominate any town occasion, the elaborate parties serviced by the inns, the reservoirs of money and elegance and exclusivity just waiting for them at Gilmore Girl discretion to partake.

 

Be honest.  You just wanted to figure out a way to use the word "ensorcelled" in a sentence! 

 

More seriously, I don't know if obsessed is the right word.  I view the relationship as a teenage romance that neither was able to move on from.  Rory was at a low point, so she went back to him for comfort, and Dean's marriage didn't seem all that great, so he reached back to Rory for comfort. 

[amensisterfriend]

Have you guys had GG-related opinions that changed a lot with repeated rewatches, illuminating insights by the super smart people who frequent this board and just the general passage of time and your own experiences? For example, I used to like S5 and subsequently acquired an unpopular dislike for it, like to the point where I like it a lot less than the widely reviled S7 and maybe even less than the admittedly problematic S6. Another UO that I'm always hoping will swing back in the other direction is that I like Luke (and the Luke/Lorelai pairing) less and less  with every rewatch. Emily/Lorelai went from arguably the show's most compelling relationship for me to one that I find exhausting, repetitive and frustrating more often than not. Dean went from eliciting mostly yawning indifference to becoming one of my least favorite characters. By contrast, Logan grew on me somewhat. 

 

Anyway, I'm asking because I've been rewatching for the first time in eons and am stunning myself by semi-liking Max! I always disliked Max, finding him almost as smarmy and pompous as a guy like Logan while still being just as dull and undefined as Dean (no easy feat!) Maybe I've grown softer on the guy now that I know he's eventually out of the picture. Maybe some of the pro-Max opinions here have influenced me for the better. Or maybe I'm totally just projecting my own real life fondness for book-loving academics and now fanwanking Max as more  likable than he actually is ;) 

 

So I'm curious...In an alternate TV universe where Lorelai wasn't clearly fated from the outset to spend her life bickering with Luke, do you think Max and Lorelai could have made each other happy?! Did you see both similarities and differences between them? Genuine chemistry? Do you think Max would have accepted Lorelai's quirks and flaws? Here's one positive thing I'll say for Max: I think he was a good balance of accepting Lorelai for the nut that she is while still not being a total and complete pushover and calling her out on her issues when appropriate. He was actually arguably the best and most direct communicator of the show's significant others aside from maybe Rachel, but 1) that may be a function of nearly every character being more communicative and spell-it-all-out-ish in S1 and early parts of S2 for better and for worse and 2) saying that a GG character was among the most mature, direct communicators in the context of a romantic relationship is still a REALLY low bar because, OMG, these people are borderline ridiculous! :) 

Edited December 24, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[themoon411]

My uo is that Emily didn't do anything wrong when she invited Chris to the vow renowel. Yes it was tacky! However, all she did was invite him, she didn't give him any secret info that would hurt lauralie.  Her plan wasn't to have  lauralie be dumped, but for lauralie to do the dumping in favor of chris. She had no way of knowing about the secret tequila night. In fact, if lauralie had not kept that night a secret, then she and Luke probably would have laughed off Chris's attempts and L would have felt only mild annoyance at emily. This was in no way different then the mating party they threw for rory, and nobody painted emily as pure evil then.

Also if they were going to vilify emily, why did Richard get a free pass. He might not have set it up, but he knew about it, and he certainly supported emily! And yet the ggs acted like he was blameless.

[solotrek]

So I'm curious...In an alternate TV universe where Lorelai wasn't clearly fated from the outset to spend her life bickering with Luke, do you think Max and Lorelai could have made each other happy?! Did you see both similarities and differences between them? Genuine chemistry? Do you think Max would have accepted Lorelai's quirks and flaws?

 

I don't think they would have stayed together regardless of Luke because in the end of the day, Lorelai wasn't completely into her relationship with Max. Not even taking into account that she called Christopher at her bachelorette party. Like Max said in one of his rants, she never thought about really having him be a part of her life. He would have no say in Rory or her upbringing (I'm sure he would have handled the Dean/Lindsay and the yacht situation a lot better because Rory sure as hell wasn't "done" being raised), basically had no function in the house except to cook,  and even the idea of getting him a house key just didn't occur to Lorelai. It seemed she liked the idea of having Max or a devoted man in her life rather than dealing with the realities of what having him in her life meant.

 

It's hard to see things from Max's side as well. He had to get a brief overview on being in a relationship with Lorelai from Dean? And I think this was after he was already engaged? Heck his proposal was basically his response to his dick measuring contest with Luke. But I do think he was pretty quick to accept Lorelai's flaws and quirks.

 

Basically, the bits we saw of their relationship were too dysfunctional to really make a judgement on whether or not they had longevity as a couple in real life. They got together, broke up because Lorelai panicked, got back together because Lorelai panicked again, got engaged because Max was coming off his argument with Luke, and broke that off because Lorelai realized she was interested but not "marriage" interested. And who yells at someone about not telling people they're in  a relationship when the other person is freaking out about their child who has just runaway? 

 

I don't think I saw too much chemistry between them and their Venn diagram of similarities probably only included "Rory's a good kid". But I did think Max was an ok enough guy, just not right for Lorelai.

 

My uo is that Emily didn't do anything wrong when she invited Chris to the vow renowel. Yes it was tacky! However, all she did was invite him, she didn't give him any secret info that would hurt lauralie.

 

Emily goaded an idiot into thinking he had a decent shot at winning Lorelai back. She didn't just invite Chris to the vow renewal to be a guest at her vow renewal. If she had just sent him an invitation and what had happened, happened, that'd a different story. But she went out of her way to go see Christopher and tell him that he should use the opportunity at the wedding to go after Lorelai.

 

She’s getting serious with this man. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. If you want a chance with Lorelai you had better do something. And you had better do something now. [she places an envelope on the table.] Timing has never been your strong point, Christopher. You should see if you can change that.

Richard gets the pass because he wasn't the one who went. This isn't the type of thing that Emily and Richard would really talk about doing, it's not the way a person like Richard would handle this type of thing. Most likely, he didn't know beforehand, but sure as hell did afterwards. As Lorelai said, he's the Eva to Emily's Adolf. I think it's in poor taste to make comparisons like that in general, but history doesn't paint Eva with the same paintbrush it does with Adolf.

[ghoulina]

I don't think Lorelai and Max would have made it as a couple either. I think they had a lot of physical chemistry, but overall I think they liked the idea of each other better than they actually liked each other. If that makes any sense. Max was the brainy teacher, who made Lorelai feel worldly and sophisticated. And Lorelai was the the hot, young mom, who made things fun and made Max feel more young himself. I could be overgeneralizing things, but I never really saw their relationship as very serious, but more of a "summer vacation" type of thing. 

[txhorns79]

As Lorelai said, he's the Eva to Emily's Adolf. I think it's in poor taste to make comparisons like that in general, but history doesn't paint Eva with the same paintbrush it does with Adolf.

 

Perhaps, but she still ends up dead in the bunker just the same.  Though I agree in this instance, it didn't seem like Richard knew what Emily was up to until after it happened.  I think he says something to that extent to her to say he agreed with her overall idea, but it backfired and now she has to live with it.  And Emily chides him for gloating over being the favored parent.     

[clack]

Sookie never quite worked as a character. One moment we're meant to take her and her dilemmas seriously, the next moment she's acting like one of the Three Stooges.

Kirk, at least, was always only a buffoon. Comedy associated with Lorelai and Rory wasn't always exactly life- like, but it was mostly based on dialogue, and didn't get all slapstick- y.

Sookie, however, felt tonally off- key.

[Commando Cody]

In the pilot, they made Sookie out to be a hazardous savant. She was a klutz who set things on fire, but there was always someone around to clean up her messes. I think they sort of phased that out and made Kirk more of the comic relief. 

[clack]

But even after Sookie's klutziness was phased out, she was still doing ridiculous things -- like cooking sophisticated gourmet vegetable- based dishes while catering a kids' party. Apparently, the idea that kids preferred pizza and hot dogs was genuinely new to her.

One moment broad, silly comedy with little connection to reality, the next moment we are meant to take seriously Sookie's insecurity about becoming a mother. The tonal adjustment was too abrupt.

I found her wacky hi- jinks to be annoying, not funny.

[JayInChicago]

I totally hear you about Sookie. I really kind of almost hate her in the middle of the series, especially around the opening of the Dragonfly. It provided a lot of drama but when thousands of dollars are involved it kind of lacks humor.  Also her and Jackson's fights are just over the top annoying. And let's not even go back to the whole ordering someone else to have a vasectomy thing. 

[Smad]

Too bad ASP is such a control freak. The show would have benefitted if she had someone on staff who can do continuity, both story and character.

 

Sookie made all the food for Rory's b-day party in S1 (and presumably for years) but suddenly she doesn't know what kind of food kids like. Huh. Apparently her and Jackson had seperate finances which completely excluded the other even after getting married. When they were running low on money getting the Dragonfly off the ground Lorelai had to actually ask if Jackson could chip in and then being told that Jackson just bought new farm equipment. What the hell?

 

I don't even want to get into the whole 'I have a new baby so it's fine I miss all my business appointments' because it's oh so hard taking care of a baby while having a husband and loads of extended family. Or 'I know I will be on leave soon because I'm pregnant but I never let my staff do anything and I won't get a replacement cook even though this would cost the business'. And while she is at it, treat people who have their own business (like Luke) who rush over to help like crap. Snip off her husband's tubes without ever telling him. Sookie just got worse and worse as the Seasons went on.

[txhorns79]

I don't even want to get into the whole 'I have a new baby so it's fine I miss all my business appointments' because it's oh so hard taking care of a baby while having a husband and loads of extended family. Or 'I know I will be on leave soon because I'm pregnant but I never let my staff do anything and I won't get a replacement cook even though this would cost the business'. And while she is at it, treat people who have their own business (like Luke) who rush over to help like crap. Snip off her husband's tubes without ever telling him. Sookie just got worse and worse as the Seasons went on.

 

I felt like there was a point where the writers just kind of didn't know what to do with Sookie.  Her life was pretty settled, and aside from her self-induced work dramas (missing appointments, throwing a fit over lunch being cancelled, failing to get a timely fill in chef when she needed to go on leave), she didn't seem to do all that much. 

[dustylil]

Snip off her husband's tubes without ever telling him

 

Or so she thought. And while Jackson didn't get his "four in four", he did get three children in under four years.

A unilateral decision for her husband to have a vasectomy, his decision not to inform her of his refusal (and his use of his supposed snipping to get what he want (e.g. the baptism of the children), then his half-assed approach to birth control after Martha's birth - despite Sookie having been on bed rest for the latter part of her pregnancy.

I  never understood why many people seemed to view Jackson and Sookie as having such a great relationship.

Edited January 1, 2016 by dustylil

[Commando Cody]

I thought Sookie was going to fall for the new guy who brought her produce, but his appearance ended up being a one-off. 

 

She was being way over the top paranoid over using the free vegetables he left her. 

[timimouse]

Have you guys had GG-related opinions that changed a lot with repeated rewatches, illuminating insights by the super smart people who frequent this board and just the general passage of time and your own experiences? 

 

Anyway, I'm asking because I've been rewatching for the first time in eons and am stunning myself by semi-liking Max! I always disliked Max, finding him almost as smarmy and pompous as a guy like Logan while still being just as dull and undefined as Dean (no easy feat!) Maybe I've grown softer on the guy now that I know he's eventually out of the picture. Maybe some of the pro-Max opinions here have influenced me for the better. Or maybe I'm totally just projecting my own real life fondness for book-loving academics and now fanwanking Max as more  likable than he actually is ;) 

 

So I'm curious...In an alternate TV universe where Lorelai wasn't clearly fated from the outset to spend her life bickering with Luke, do you think Max and Lorelai could have made each other happy?! Did you see both similarities and differences between them? Genuine chemistry? Do you think Max would have accepted Lorelai's quirks and flaws? Here's one positive thing I'll say for Max: I think he was a good balance of accepting Lorelai for the nut that she is while still not being a total and complete pushover and calling her out on her issues when appropriate. He was actually arguably the best and most direct communicator of the show's significant others aside from maybe Rachel, but 1) that may be a function of nearly every character being more communicative and spell-it-all-out-ish in S1 and early parts of S2 for better and for worse and 2) saying that a GG character was among the most mature, direct communicators in the context of a romantic relationship is still a REALLY low bar because, OMG, these people are borderline ridiculous! :) 

I agree with you that I have opinions that change as I re-watch and as I get different perspectives from this forum. But my dislike of Max has never changed. I never thought he was a good match for Lorelai and I found him VERY boring. But after seeing their breakup a few times, I felt sorry for him. She really treated him horribly. I'm not sure she even called him to tell him that the wedding was off! All we saw was her pulling Rory out of bed and calling Sookie.... I used to assume that she did call him, but given the person we got to know over the series, I'm not so sure any more....

So to answer your question, I don't think in a Luke-free world, they would've survived, because I don't think she was that into him. She didn't make a genuine effort to include him in her life. He never even met her parents. No Friday-night dinners. It was just too awkward all round I thought.

[Melancholy]

I totally agree with the above round of comments that Sookie devolved after S1-2 into a shrewish, loud, cacophony of her own bullshit made-up problems brought on by selfishness and stupidity. That said, it's funny that I've always loved Paris even though Paris has a lot of that nonsense to her- minus the stupidity but Paris has own special brand of insanity where she makes problems for herself (her reign as YDN editor, breaking up with Doyle preemptively because they're nearing grad school, the times that she threw Rory away as a friend on a rumor) I think there are several tricks with Paris:

 

(1) Paris doesn't seem stupid so much as crazy and for TV, I like crazy better

 

(2) Paris was presented as bitchy throughout, even if she could be a useful friend to have. However, Sookie was treated like her kind, reasonable S1-2 self even though she became one of the rudest, least reasonable people on the show. Like, Sookie will lie and tease Michel for days like Lorelei's snarky BFF in perfect tandem with Lorelai for Michel's reasonable problem against someone staying in the beds and mussing the room and eating from the minibars. However, Lorelai was all sympathetic to find Sookie in the rooms, instead of questioning why her partner would so easily lie about something so small and easily blamed on their staff who wouldn't have the liberties to rest in the rooms like the inn's co-owner. 

 

That said, I always admired Sookie's food porn, the gorgeous foods in her kitchen, the mouthwatering descriptions, the thoughtful "money is no object" debates about what to serve. As a very amateur foodie, that stuff was always fun. I also somewhat fanwank that Sookie was a little artless and insecure about how freakin' important she was to the success of an inn with her very specialized artistic skill and "You haven't lived until you tasted Sookie St. James's risotto" type celebrity. Sookie was just humble and unassuming next to Lorelai, her beautiful, glamorous best friend. But with personal life confidence from a settled married romantic life, more attention for her cooking, and the knowledge that of the two partners starting a brand new inn, she was the NAME, Sookie felt entitled to pull lots of crap in the business. 

Edited January 1, 2016 by Melancholy

[solotrek]

Too bad ASP is such a control freak. The show would have benefitted if she had someone on staff who can do continuity, both story and character.

 

Like George Lucas and Star Wars. Thank goodness for people like Lawrence Kasdan and JJ Abrams.

 

In the pilot, they made Sookie out to be a hazardous savant.

 

I don't understand how she could have been THAT injury prone on the job. I get maybe cutting herself or burning herself, but almost breaking legs and cutting open the BACK of her shirt? Does she do somersaults while cooking? And the smacking people in the face or throwing food all over the place (when her wedding invitations came), ugh. It must be nice that your best friend is basically your boss.

[dustylil]

She didn't make a genuine effort to include him in her life. He never even met her parents. No Friday-night dinners

 

I too thought Lorelai handled the whole Max situation badly and had my doubts about Lorelai and Max going the distance when they were engaged. But given that this was her first (!) serious relationship since moving to Stars Hollow, I do think she did try to include him in her life. Although clearly she (and they) hadn't really thought a lot of issues through. They did double-date with Rory and Dean and Max  spent time in Stars Hollow, even attending a town meeting. Presumably as the wedding drew closer, he would become more involved.

 

Max did meet Emily, although I am not sure about  Richard. I don't believe Lorelai was ever introduced to his parents.

 

Actually, I see no reason why Max should have attended a Friday Night Dinner as such. That was a personal and financial obligation of Lorelai's, not a social function. A separate meal with Max (which might also have included his parents) would have been more appropriate given their wedding plans. And more socially correct :)

[solotrek]

Max did meet Emily, although I am not sure about  Richard. I don't believe Lorelai was ever introduced to his parents.

 

Max's meeting of Emily was part of Lorelai's insane freakout at her mom for not reacting how Lorelai wanted when hearing about the engagement. That's not really a meeting, that's a mistake. Since Max was driving and figured out at the last minute what was going to happen, should have turned the car around and calmed her down.

 

I'd like to think that there was an off camera meeting of the parents at some point. Otherwise, the entire thing would just be a farce. Especially considering how gung ho Emily and Richard were about "meeting" Luke and having Luke over (even if it was a bit nefarious at times).

[txhorns79]

Max's meeting of Emily was part of Lorelai's insane freakout at her mom for not reacting how Lorelai wanted when hearing about the engagement. That's not really a meeting, that's a mistake. Since Max was driving and figured out at the last minute what was going to happen, should have turned the car around and calmed her down.

 

The whole thing was so silly.  Lorelai came off as unhinged, and emotionally unstable.  If anything, Max should have run from that mess once he saw just the kind of crazy dysfunction he was going to marry into. 

[alexa]

Speaking of Sookie, I think she had some great moments in Season 7...  to me she was back to being a good friend to Lorelai, had good dialogue with her husband, and seemed involved in the town again.  There were a couple of seasons before that in which I didn't like her as much as I usually do.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I was going to wait until I rewatched the show in anticipation of the Netflix revival to post about this, but that may never happen, so, here goes.  I do not care for the character of Richard Gilmore.  The man does absolutely nothing for me.  I get that there's a lot of love for the dearly departed Edward Hermann, which is why I apologize.  But Richard is just a cold man who reads the newspaper all the time.  (LOL, am I just remembering the opening theme?)  He never seems to look up from what he's doing, I don't remember him fully engaging with Lorelai or Emily.... I don't get the love for this character.  The only time you see him act sort of human is how affectionate he is for Rory... so what.  And then he's extremely harsh to Rory when (What was it?  I forget.  Something about Dean, or Logan, or both?)  Sorry... I don't like him.  Maybe because I don't have men in my life that I can relate to him, at all.  The men in my life might be very different from him.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[alexa]

I can completely understand!  I think many of us can relate to him because we do know many men from that generation that were very similar to Richard Gilmore (not in the wealth, but in the personality aspects you describe).  I guess I shouldn't speak for others, so I will say I am well aware of several people like him.  I think the reason why he is still liked is because underneath some of that you get those nice moments that are meaningful.  Doesn't excuse his behavior, but there is something about getting through that shell once in a while.

 

Plus I think people like the character because they respect the actor--there is some of that as well.

 

But I totally agree that he is not the nicest of people all of the time!  

Edited January 4, 2016 by alexa

[Ms Blue Jay]

Right, when I think of the men in my  family, they are extremely sensitive, warm, etc.  There are ranges of that.  They were more affectionate than the women in my family.  I was reading the Gilmore Girls Wikia and it mentioned Richard being completely cold to Dean because he wasn't good enough for Rory and then "Grieving" over Rory's loss of virginity.  So it's kind of the Madonna/Whore thing.  I like you Rory when you are perfect as I want you to be , but when you become normal or human I don't support it.   I am happy I pretty much had the opposite type of father figure in my life.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[dustylil]

I'm with those who couldn't abide Richard (although I too have long admired Mr. Herrmann). I thought he was self-centred, pompous blowhard. He was devoted to his family - as long as its members conformed to his expectations of them. Even with his beloved granddaughter, his do-over Rory, he couldn't stir himself to help her after she

dropped out of Yale - despite his promises. He left everything to Emily - and then criticized her when things didn't turn out as he wanted.

And his affection and apparent respect for Christopher - which lasted at least into the third season - sheesh!

 

Actually, I had no difficulty with his reserve and lack of physical demonstrativeness. It made sense for a man of his background. His actions and attitudes were what gave me pause.

Edited January 4, 2016 by dustylil

[Guest]

Yesterday, during my rewatch, I saw Rory's 21st birthday party, and his behavior was deplorable that episode.  From hiding out pouting for much of the party that his wife had spent a lot of time, effort, and money on to the way he talked to Lorelai, he was a jerk.

[txhorns79]

And his affection and apparent respect for Christopher - which lasted at least into the third season - sheesh!

 

In fairness, during the first season, Richard tells Lorelai that he doesn't love Christopher at all.  He tells Lorelai he was furious at Christopher when he first learned about the pregnancy.  His appreciation for Chris was because Christopher had been willing to get with the program and marry Lorelai.

[Melancholy]

I think I'm unpopularly zen about a lot of these characters because I watch Gilmore Girls as a show about very flawed people. That's the entire charm. Despite the strummy tra-la-las and cutsey feel in every scene, there's something Seinfeldian/Curb Your Enthusiasm or Mad Men to these characters' petty selfishness and hypocrisy that never really has a big criminal impact on the world but sure feels distasteful in how relationships are needlessly wrecked and time is needlessly spent arguing over bullshit. I think I only hate GG characters for being under-criticized by the series relative to their deplorable actions (TJ and Liz, S4-6 Sookie), or I dunno, this favor of weird and pathetic that i can only describe as off-putting (Dean, sometimes Christopher despite his dramatic merit). And those are the only characters I hate.

 

I may comment on it but given that Luke's anger issues, Emily & Richard's coldness and snobbiness, Rory's late season spiral of terrible choices, Jess's punk bad boy years, and Logan's richie-rich playboy attitude make them OFT-criticized by the narrative and they actually have arcs dealing with those issues, those characters are among my absolute favorites. I like Lorelai too- but I dunno, she means less to me than the above because for the lead character, her most impressive years and arc were actually PRE-SERIES and the other characters just didn't challenge her as successfully. 

 

I felt very sorry for Richard in the Yale-drop out story and didn't really hate him for it at all. Maybe that's an UO. I think he was trying his best, but his best was necessarily limited. He was too soft-hearted towards Rory to turn her away or yell at her after she dove into his arms weeping and begging for his help. Lorelai had escalating problems with Rory from sleeping with married!Dean to swanning off to Europe to dating Logan to acting like a party girl to the yacht theft to then, dropping out of Yale. It took a lot for Lorelai to get the point where she basically told Rory that she can't come back home again. Yes, Richard should have deferred to the fact that Lorelai is the mother and she knows her own mind when she proposed hard-core intervention. That wasn't respectful to Lorelai. However in terms of Rory, I think Richard's inclination to take Rory in and give her some easy job while she figures things out would have been Lorelai's inclination too if Rory didn't piss Lorelai off in other ways and just made two bad choices in one terrible, off-kilter week.

 

As for when Rory was in the pool-house, again, I think Richard worked at trying to rehab her. He spent a ton of money to give her a nice place to live, he got her a lawyer, he tried engaging with her on their books-common ground to see if she was still exercising her brain, he tried asking Logan what's going on in her life because Rory wasn't being upfront. When things clearly weren't working, Richard went to Lorelai to get her help or see if he could bribe Rory to go back to school with her trust fund. Actually, I really don't know what else Richard could have done after he took Rory in. Seriously, does anyone have any other ideas on what Richard was supposed to do after he took Rory in? I mean, I guess Richard could have gotten a better lawyer- but this lawyer was famously successful. I guess Richard could have cross-examined Rory EVEN MORE about her plans and life and books- but I think Richard was inclined to do that but held himself back/used more ulterior motives because he didn't want to antagonize Rory. 

 

Really, Lorelai didn't have some secret-sauce plan beyond the first intervention. Luke, Paris, Richard all asked Lorelai to help get Rory back on track. Lorelai decided to do nothing- saying that it was Rory's job to get herself back on track. Actually if you agree with Lorelai and based on how events transpired, Richard didn't fail Rory by not being nurturing or kind enough. Actually, Richard failed Rory by making things TOO COMFORTABLE and TOO NICE because evidently, the solution according to Lorelai's opinions and the narrative that always backs up Lorelai, was to make things miserable and humiliating enough for Rory that college would look all shiny and new. Who knows if Rory would have gotten there faster by spending time in the frying pan (uber-controlling, rules-laden Gilmore household where Rory appeared like a dillitante-turning-on-seventy-something lady to someone who she'd like to impress like Jess) or the fire (out on her own with only her Marc Jacobs clothing line to action off because Lorelai got everyone to close their doors to Rory because she wouldn't take the intervention, and thus, had to get a job as a maid at an inn.) 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

Actually, I really don't know what else Richard could have done after he took Rory in. Seriously, does anyone have any other ideas on what Richard was supposed to do after he took Rory in? I mean, I guess Richard could have gotten a better lawyer

 

 

Melancholy, I think there were more than a couple of things Richard could have done, beyond the legal matters.

He could have canvassed his friends and colleagues and hunted around for a part-time or full-time job for Rory - paid or volunteer. Something with an intellectual component to it - perhaps an archival or research assistant. If that wasn't feasible, he could have asked her to undertake a project for him and the family  -  a history of the Gilmores in Connecticut, perhaps,  or a rough outline for a biography of Trix. It would be a reminder of how much she enjoyed activities requiring brainwork.

 

He could have insisted - as a price for living at the senior Gilmore home - some structure to her life and a bi-weekly or monthly meeting to discuss how these activities were going - and if she was devising any plans for the future. She would at least have to think about her current life and her future.

 

Given how important philanthropy and good works apparently were to Richard and Emily, he could have asked her to donate some time to a local good cause. It might have given her a metaphorical kick in the pants.

 

He could have encouraged her to keep in touch with her contemporaries. Those beyond Logan and his louche friends, that is.  He - through Emily - could have invited Paris, some other Yalies, even Lane to lunch or an informal dinner. This would be both for her to keep in touch and to see that others were making progress in their lives. It  didn't appear that until she saw Jess that she finally had a sense of how stagnant her life - and limited her world - had become.

 

As time went on, he could have recommended her seeing a career guidance advisor to help her look into possible areas of work that might interest her. I would have suggested he look into a mental health counsellor for her  given her massive over-reaction to Mitchum's criticism. However, being Gilmores, that wouldn't fly.

 

I don't actually recall the pair engaging in books in the sixth season - but I stand to be corrected. However,  it was something I would have suggested they do. Form their own mini-book club and get back to enjoying the interest the two of them genuinely shared. And possibly through that, she may have opened up  to him.

 

[Eyes High]

I think I'm unpopularly zen about a lot of these characters because I watch Gilmore Girls as a show about very flawed people. That's the entire charm. Despite the strummy tra-la-las and cutsey feel in every scene, there's something Seinfeldian/Curb Your Enthusiasm or Mad Men to these characters' petty selfishness and hypocrisy that never really has a big criminal impact on the world but sure feels distasteful in how relationships are needlessly wrecked and time is needlessly spent arguing over bullshit.

 

The thing about Mad Men is that there was never any suggestion or hint on the writers' part that any of the awful behaviour on display, even from the less openly terrible characters like Peggy, was meant to be cute or endearing. The show wasn't oppressively positive when it came to the lead characters. They were shown to be awful, and the awfulness wasn't glossed over; even Peggy, who started Mad Men as an ingenue type--although she's pretty much the anti-Rory in several respects--had a few storylines where she embarrassed herself through selfish, petty or even racist behaviour, or where she was called out for acting like an ass. Compare this to Gilmore Girls, where the lead characters are either petted and praised for their awesomeness no matter how terribly they behave, or whose sins are either ignored or brushed off.

 

It does bother me that Gilmore Girls was so tonally focused on the need for cheeriness, lightness, sweetness, cuteness and charm that a lot of opportunities for richer dramatic material and interesting storytelling were missed or glossed over. I didn't need the show to be yet another dark, grim, tedious family drama--God knows there are plenty of those--but it could have been much more subtle, nuanced and interesting than it was. It felt like there was a smarter, sharper, better show buried underneath all the bubblegum cotton candy twee ridiculousness struggling in vain to get out, and it was so frustrating when I got those fleeting glimpses of that better show.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Eyes High

[txhorns79]

Compare this to Gilmore Girls, where the lead characters are either petted and praised for their awesomeness no matter how terribly they behave, or whose sins are either ignored or brushed off.

 

I don't know if they can be compared.  The quality of Mad Men is just light years beyond anything put forward by Gilmore Girls.  And I don't mean that to suggest Gilmore Girls was a bad show, just it's not in the same league as Mad Men. 

 

 

It does bother me that Gilmore Girls was so tonally focused on the need for cheeriness, lightness, sweetness, cuteness and charm that a lot of opportunities for richer dramatic material and interesting storytelling were missed or glossed over.

 

It's interesting.  The pilot for Gilmore Girls was sweet, but more level headed as to its characters.  No one comes off perfectly, and the characters seem like actual people.  Flash forward a few seasons and you have Emily behaving like a Bond villain coming up with a plan to destroy her daughter's relationship with Luke. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Melancholy, I don't "hate" the character of Richard at all, I just have no like for him.  And I could never relate to the like of him that I always read about.

 

I'm of the mind that mine is an unpopular opinion.  I thought I had read all 40 pages of this thread and not seen ONE negative opinion on Richard until I brought it up.  Also, in social media, on websites, etc. literally never read one negative opinion on this character yet.   So having Richard as one of your favourite characters.... hmmm.... not an unpopular opinion, to me.  

 

To comment more specifically on what I don't exactly like about Richard, I'd have to rewatch the series.  Which I'm sure I'll do someday.

 

Interesting that Mad Men was brought up.  It's a matter of taste.  I actually started Mad Men and Gilmore Girls around the same time (last summer).  I zipped through Gilmore Girls in a few weeks, and enjoyed it immensely.  I was depressed when I had finished it!   Meanwhile, I think I've started Mad Men two or three different times.  Finally got to around Season 2.  Stopped again.   There's nothing really compelling me to continue on.  Though I do felt I was enjoying it at the time.  But Gilmore Girls, I literally missed when I wasn't watching it.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[dustylil]

Ms Blue Jay, I believe there have been many comments expressing dislike for Richard over the years. If not necessarily in this thread. Both here at PTV and at our former temple of the highly opinionated, TWOP.   I know I have contributed quite a few.

However, I think the passing of Mr. Herrmann last year at this time - and the genuine regard he was held in -  may have caused people to refrain from being as vituperative as they customarily might be.

[FictionLover]

It was totally manipulative of Rory to go crying on grandpa's shoulder when she didn't get her own way with her mom. Rory had always got on my nerves, but after, that she was one of my least favorite characters.

[Melancholy]

Melancholy, I think there were more than a couple of things Richard could have done, beyond the legal matters.

He could have canvassed his friends and colleagues and hunted around for a part-time or full-time job for Rory - paid or volunteer. Something with an intellectual component to it - perhaps an archival or research assistant. If that wasn't feasible, he could have asked her to undertake a project for him and the family  -  a history of the Gilmores in Connecticut, perhaps,  or a rough outline for a biography of Trix. It would be a reminder of how much she enjoyed activities requiring brainwork.

 

He could have insisted - as a price for living at the senior Gilmore home - some structure to her life and a bi-weekly or monthly meeting to discuss how these activities were going - and if she was devising any plans for the future. She would at least have to think about her current life and her future.

 

Given how important philanthropy and good works apparently were to Richard and Emily, he could have asked her to donate some time to a local good cause. It might have given her a metaphorical kick in the pants.

 

He could have encouraged her to keep in touch with her contemporaries. Those beyond Logan and his louche friends, that is.  He - through Emily - could have invited Paris, some other Yalies, even Lane to lunch or an informal dinner. This would be both for her to keep in touch and to see that others were making progress in their lives. It  didn't appear that until she saw Jess that she finally had a sense of how stagnant her life - and limited her world - had become.

 

As time went on, he could have recommended her seeing a career guidance advisor to help her look into possible areas of work that might interest her. I would have suggested he look into a mental health counsellor for her  given her massive over-reaction to Mitchum's criticism. However, being Gilmores, that wouldn't fly.

 

I don't actually recall the pair engaging in books in the sixth season - but I stand to be corrected. However,  it was something I would have suggested they do. Form their own mini-book club and get back to enjoying the interest the two of them genuinely shared. And possibly through that, she may have opened up  to him.

 

From We've Got Magic To Do:

 

RICHARD: Well, I don't know why I bother. The great books take practically a lifetime to read as it is. But if you heed the word of Mortimer Adler, one needs to read a classic three times to fully comprehend its meaning.

RORY: (distracted) Yeah.

RICHARD: I wonder if Mortimer ever read "Euclid's geometry" three times. That's a fun read. Have you read "Euclid's geometry"?

RORY: (not any less distracted) Me? No.

RICHARD: It doesn't get any drier. What have you been reading lately? I keep forgetting to ask. 

 

I think your suggestions are frankly OTT. Rory had little to do in 6.01 and pre-Season 6. However from Fight Face on, Rory was extremely busy between her community service and DAR job and relationship with Logan that both Rory and her grandparents valued. I don't think Rory lacked for things to occupy her time for most of her tenure at her grandparents house- in fact, she was frequently annoyed at her busyness. Why get another community service project, when she already had a lot of hours to complete?

 

Richard is a busy man with a full-time job that demands lots of travel- Emily was put in charge of getting Rory a nice job that would accept a college drop-out. I think Emily did very well- Rory's DAR job looked fun, cushy, interesting, and like a great networking opportunity and Rory persisted in her interest in the DAR even after she went back to Yale. However even though Richard didn't care for how frivolous the job ended up appearing matched against other breaking developments like the Rory/Logan sex, I still evaluate that the grandparents did well by getting Rory a nice job. And most of all, what Richard anticipated would be a comfortable, amiable way for Rory to spend her non-community service time, but a pointedly temporary position as opposed to searching high and low for a dream job of great intellectual value for someone who was supposed to go back to Yale shortly. 

 

I think it's beyond silly for grandparents to arrange playdates for a twenty-one year old woman. And I'm a classic Millennial who's very sympathetic to delayed maturity- I think Rory was too young to be thrown out for not going back to Yale but she's old enough to pick her friends. BTW, Paris DID go over the pool-house twice onscreen in seven eps, Rory would lie about her nights with Logan by saying she was on sleepovers with Paris so Richard and Emily thought Rory was seeing Paris even more frequently, Rory had her car which the elder Gilmores bought for her and every permission to go see Lane. Actually, I think Rory wasn't just shocked into better behavior because she had exposure to Jess as a peer doing well. Rory had plenty of access to Lane pursuing her dreams, Rory's one-time competition Paris making editor of the Yale Daily News after Doyle was editor, or heck, even dissolute Logan still steadily working towards getting his Yale degree. I think it very specific to Jess- (a) Rory's particular respect and affection for Jess as IMO, her first real love, (b) the fact that the tables had turned to the point where the bad boy from the wrong side of the tracks was doing better than the Golden Girl and perhaps most pivotally, © Rory was always starry eyed at Jess's legit Beatnik COOL and nothing made her feel like a rapidly aging Emily-clone with a fussy dress on the door in an ancient-looking bedroom than Jess standing there. 

 

I also think Richard and Emily WANTED to have Rory come to the main-house more frequently. That was a point of friction, they wanted Rory at more of their meals and more in the house. Emily installed the intercom, hoping to use it and make Rory appear for breakfast before Richard went to work, much to Rory's aggravation. They both pulled back, at first, to give Rory her space but then, drew her in more (smothered her more) once they felt she wasn't living up to her privileges. 

 

Again, I think Richard did his best with a softer, more carroty approach to dealing with Rory's problems than Lorelai's solution that everyone needs to close their doors to Rory until she goes back to Yale. The elder Gilmores provided the luxurious means and opportunities that basically all early twenty-somethings don't have on their own from the car to the house to the job opportunity so Rory could use it to do what twenty something can do and actually HAVE TO DO on their own, especially with their necessities provided- read books, arrange social outings with friends, find meaning in the vocations keeping them busy, use her entirely available, eager to talk and talk and talk... grandparents as a source for wisdom and companionship, and abide by Rory's actual starting request for merely a place to live while she figures out her next move because Lorelai kicked her out. 

 

Eyes High, I agree with you. I don't think Gilmore Girls is as good as Mad Men, or for that matter, Seinfeld/Curb Your Enthusiasm. It does take the easy way out. I just brought those series up because it is pretty rare for a series that focuses on the petty, nonsensical ways to fuck up among characters in NON medical/lawyer/cop/criminal/evil-fighting fields where their backs are emphatically NOT to the wall, everything looks very, very pretty on the outside, and most of the characters range from filthy rich to actually quite comfortable even if they're not as rich and their aesthetic is more homey; it's mainly the characters' own drama keeping things both interesting and problematic. I certainly *watch* Gilmore Girls that way. I don't expect a show about wonderful, loving, fabulous people to then get upset that Luke was angry in the later seasons or Rory made horrible early twenty-something choices or the elder Gilmores remained snobby, cold people till the end- I really absorb it as just the way that they are. 

 

I think Lorelai and Rory had two different problems. Lorelai was hardly made accountable for anything that she did with a big honking exception of Luke. When Lorelai treated someone badly, there was usually something to diminish their credibility hugely- except with Luke. Jess was a punk kid, Rory was Lorelai's kid and emphatically NOT THE BOSS, the elder Gilmores were the villains of Lorelai's life, Max didn't appear on screen when Lorelai called off the wedding, Christopher was intentionally written as a screw-up at all times, when the text made a point that Lorelai hurt Sookie's feelings, it was resolved in the space of that scene or the next scene. Luke was the only credible character who could get mad at Lorelai for doing something the text acknowledged as crappy and it'd be treated with respect.

 

However, I think people credibly got mad or hurt-feelingsed at Rory. There was big textual respect to a lot of the times Lorelai, Dean, Logan, Lane, the grandparents, Marty, Headmaster Charlston lectured or were visibly hurt by Rory. In part because Rory was a child/young adult- adults or even her peers can yell at her as worthwhile discipline/character-formation in a way that they can't with Lorelai. Actually, I think Paris was made out like the ogre in most of the Paris v. Rory fights but as as best friend, Paris competes with and dissects Rory memorably in a way that say, Sookie never could. Rory's deal wasn't that she wasn't called out- it's that she stunningly and amazingly always came out on top, even after dumb choices that should have sunk her in the competitive waters where she wanted to swim. It's half-credible because I do buy Rory as this beautiful but also extremely sweet-looking and very feminine girl who the world is just out to adore. In the early seasons, I buy why everyone would assume that Jess hadda be poison on wheels to ever get Rory in a teen car accident or why Paris would be correct in believing that she'd win with Rory, Dressed By Birds in the Morning on her VP ticket and stuff like that was why Rory didn't exactly have to work as hard at developing Harvard-like extracurriculars but instead, just received them. I buy Logan settling down for Rory's sake. It gets harder to believe at stuff like the judgey, gossipy sharks at the Yale Daily News voting Rory as editor, after she blew off school for months after a yacht-theft. 

 

However, I do think Jess's/Logan's/Richard's/Emily's/Luke's/Paris's flaws WERE dealt with very honestly, and a bunch of them really did get arcs to grow or stay the same, but more...livable. 

Edited January 4, 2016 by Melancholy

[themoon411]

So for one thing, I don't see why rory was considered so special! I can see why the grandparents and her mom thought so, but why would everybody else!? She was smart, pretty, and nice, and while those are nice qualities, they aren't extraordinary. She wasn't inventing cool things, or had cool hobbies, or even won prizes and grants with her writing. In the world of chilton, and especially yale, she would have been considered average!

Also she had serious issues with personal relationships. She was supposedly so close to lauralie, but after she gets a lecture about dean, she just  gives her the cold shoulder all summer. Despite L being the closest person to her, and despite her mom's attempts  to be friendly and understanding.

Also, I really feel bad for emily. She gets all the blame when things go bad ( rory not living up to her full potential in the pool house), and none of the credit when things go well ( Friday night dinners created a close bond with rory for both grand parents, and mended many fences with lauralie).

[Ms Blue Jay]

Thanks for responding, dustylil!  That's very interesting for me to learn!

[Melancholy]

I think Rory wasn't THAT special deep down. I have a hunch that Jess and Paris were smarter than her. Actually, I'm damn sure about Paris- pre-med student who could get into the nation's top medicals schools AND law schools AND worked incredibly hard as a reporter actually living through Ramadan while Rory was fumphering around the downloaded music early 2000s cliche until Logan scooped her up and gave her a scoop ;-) Chilton always seemed to have a ton of group projects which were worth like a THOUSAND PERCENT OF YOUR GRADE to up the stakes of the Chilton plot in the ep- where Paris invariably seemed like the brains, motivator, and boss of the group allowing Rory to sit back and play the Good Cop/Well-Adjusted Kid....and still get the A+ of Paris's hard work.

 

However, I did buy people loving Rory so much- probably eighty five percent of which was because Alexis Bledel was just that beautiful. Even more, I think she's a very particular kind of delicate, girl-next-door conventional pretty girl plus stunning dark hair/blue eyes, doll-like features, nicely curved body stunner that's the best of both worlds. Obviously, good looks are an asset- everyone knows that. However, I think there's a particular kind of kismet type of conventional but stunning, non-threatening* but sexy good looks that allows the verrrry lucky few to basically write their own ticket, with just enough inner resources to justify it. 

 

Actually, I think Lara Logan is an awesome, brave reporter, her recent journalistic scandal aside. I think she's terrific- and I basically never fastforward whatever segment she covers in 60 Minutes because I'm interested in foreign policy most of all and she always covers worthwhile topics in a serious, detailed manner that can think outside the box and deliver fresh information on commonly covered foreign policy news story beyond the headlines. However, I know that Lara Logan basically became CBS's prized foreign corespondent on first hiring after a relatively short resume even though she probably wasn't the most obviously gutsy or gravitas-laden reporter because she's Rory Gilmore-beautiful and captivating (although with the added bonus of a South African accent.) Even though she's a genuine reporter, you just know that she plays into sexist tropes (even as she defeats them with her great reporting) which are subtly entertaining- OF COURSE, a bunch of hard-core US Marines in Afghanistan would open up to LARA LOGAN, sitting there in the desert in a ladylike but rustic open-necked white blouse, looking intently at them with her big blue eyes like they're the bravest, most interesting marines she's ever met and she's met a lot! I think Rory's a lot like that- and I've envisioned a successful journalistic career along those lines. Which is genuine, earned success- but entirely made possible by DAT FACE. 

 

*For a girl. Guys in this case need to be, at least, a little strong and dominant to make this caste.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[themoon411]

While I agree that rory was beautiful,  and that would have opened doors, the show seemed to imply that being beautiful and smart was a unique trait. In yale all the pretty people were intellectually challenged ( and I doubt yale has intellectually challenged students), and all the smart kids had major issues ( paris, lana). The show implies that Logan fell for rory because she is the only girl he knew who was smart and pretty, and I find that hard to believe.  Rory never had any serious competition,  and the only time we see a pretty and smart woman is when Bobbie arrives, and she disappears after one episode....

Also I feel the lauralie 's success wasn't that amazing or unique. Yes she was a teen mom, but she wasn't a typical teen mom so she wouldn't have typical statistics. She had a strong educational foundation that would have helped her critically think and work hard. And if she failed she had the golden parachute  ( emily and richard). A parachute she did use as needed. The way Richard assumes lauralie wants money in the pilot makes me believe this wasn't the first she asked for money. If a daughter hadn't asked for anything in 15 years, I doubt money would have been the first thought. Even if L never asked for a loan, just knowing that option was there, however unpleasant,  would have greatly helped with stress!

[Commando Cody]

I never understood where all the money came from sometimes. I know Lorelei was borrowing money and getting loans from the bank with a co-sign, but it suddenly seemed like everyone just had money to burn. Luke bought a whole building. Then they remodeled Lorelei's house. Then Luke was going to buy that twelve bedroom house. It just seemed like everyone was just spending money on things that most people might only get to buy one of - and then struggle and sacrifice to make payments. 

[txhorns79]

However, I think the passing of Mr. Herrmann last year at this time - and the genuine regard he was held in -  may have caused people to refrain from being as vituperative as they customarily might be.

 

I think people just cycle through topics, like always.  Sometimes they discuss Lorelai, sometimes Rory, sometimes Emily and sometimes Richard. Though I'd love to see what comments dustylil regarded as "abusive" on these forums towards Richard.

 

 

Then Luke was going to buy that twelve bedroom house. It just seemed like everyone was just spending money on things that most people might only get to buy one of - and then struggle and sacrifice to make payments.

 

I guess you can fanwank a little and just say that Luke was a huge miser until he suddenly started needing to spend money when Jess moved in, and again when his relationship with Lorelai deepened.  I've never owned a diner, but I wasn't under the impression it was really a lucrative business.    

Edited January 5, 2016 by txhorns79

[Eyes High]

I think Rory wasn't THAT special deep down. I have a hunch that Jess and Paris were smarter than her. Actually, I'm damn sure about Paris- pre-med student who could get into the nation's top medicals schools AND law schools AND worked incredibly hard as a reporter actually living through Ramadan while Rory was fumphering around the downloaded music early 2000s cliche until Logan scooped her up and gave her a scoop ;-) Chilton always seemed to have a ton of group projects which were worth like a THOUSAND PERCENT OF YOUR GRADE to up the stakes of the Chilton plot in the ep- where Paris invariably seemed like the brains, motivator, and boss of the group allowing Rory to sit back and play the Good Cop/Well-Adjusted Kid....and still get the A+ of Paris's hard work.

I do think the show did correct what happened at Chilton a little bit at Yale, when Paris dramatically surged past Rory in the success department by successfully gaining admission to the most prestigious and competitive law schools and medical schools in the country while Rory lost out on the Reston.

Is there really any basis in the show to believe that Paris and Jess are smarter than Rory? Paris and Jess hew closer to my idea of how certain types of very intelligent people tend to speak and behave--Jess in particular reminds of the gifted teenagers I knew in high school--but very smart people can also come in docile, sweet-tempered packages as well.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[Melancholy]

Is there really any basis in the show to believe that Paris and Jess are smarter than Rory? Paris and Jess hew closer to my idea of how certain types of very intelligent people tend to speak and behave--Jess in particular reminds of the gifted teenagers I knew in high school--but very smart people can also come in docile, sweet-tempered packages as well.

 

There's not really a solid basis- it's just my instinct, partly based on Paris's and Jess's personalities. Rory did get higher PSATs than Paris. But still, in group Chilton projects, Paris stands out and some of that is Paris's take-charge personality but I dunno, some of it really just feels like Paris is the one who comes up with even an idea of a successful business idea even if Rory was technically in charge. Paris is the one who really, really cares about designing a government and describing the politics in a tome at the start of the project, while Rory's big contribution is "lose manifesto." Paris, not only takes charge to try to beat the NYT/Washington Post/Wall Street Journal on the Franklin, but she comes up with great ideas, first the blowing the lid off idyllic yuppie migration to small towns and then when that busts, being quick enough to seize on the irony of their reporter as a fan of censorship. Rory knew the extracurricular, "stand out" Ivy League game by early S2- but still, it's Paris figuring out how to get the President of Chilton line on her resume and Paris trying to come up with a more creative essay than "Why Hillary Clinton is My Hero?"- not Rory. Manipulating the best service out of servers by front-loading the tips. What idea did Rory come up with? Rory never seems to really come up with ideas (besides the 1940s USO DAR thing) or even calculatedly strategize (until a little as editor of the YDN and DAR hostess- but even then, not much). Rory is a curious person, but mainly, she hears a task and executes it neatly and nicely. 

 

Not only does Paris seem more creative, she's better rounded. I think Rory could get good grades in math and science but I dunno, I can't see her acing a pre-med track at Yale. Maybe that's lack of interest, rather than aptitude. However, I think Paris is very rare for acing pre-med and getting involved in political clubs and being editor of the YDN. Apropos of nothing, Paris also has these handy skills that come out of nowhere like being a great construction worker, speaking multiple languages, being terrific at crafts like the paper hat, krav mega, or these out-of-the-box but brilliant strategies for how to thrive in DA HOOD.

 

Meanwhile....Rory reads prolifically, writes very well, has a fantastic memory and is an organized administrator (all of which is true for Paris as well)- but that's it. Rory's HUGE strength over Paris is charm and emotional intelligence.

 

I have less evidence with Jess. I just think there's some beyond-amazing potential there if he could go toe-to-toe with Rory on the reading and brainy conversations, given the financially, emotionally, and intellectually impoverished household that Liz set up in contrast to Lorelei's household filled with books and music and love where Lorelai taught Rory about female role models and pop culture and encouraged her love of reading. I also think Jess tends to outwit Rory in most arguments (Haunted Leg, poking holes in her career ambitions in Teach Me Tonight, wrong footing Rory with the "care about me" after Rory went out to give HIM an angry ultimatum, of course, everything he said in Let Your Balalaikas Ring Out). Of course, this could be because Rory is less confrontational and hates arguing while Jess LOVES arguing- but I dunno, I feel like Rory showed up to fight or really defend her choices in all of those instances but Jess has this analytical way to cut through the bullshit, even as he's spinning his own bullshit. I also get the impression that he's also a man of many talents- mechanical skills, con artist skills, but still, no one really did seem as well-rounded as Paris. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

because Lorelai kicked her out

 

When did this happen? Lorelai told her she couldn't move back home from New Haven  and do nothing - but that is not the same thing as giving her the heave-ho. And Lorelai was genuinely taken aback when she learned from Richard and Emily that Rory was moving into the pool house.

 

 

 

Rory was extremely busy between her community service and DAR job and relationship with Logan that both Rory and her grandparents valued. I don't think Rory lacked for things to occupy her time for most of her tenure at her grandparents house- in fact, she was frequently annoyed at her busyness. Why get another community service project, when she already had a lot of hours to complete

 

I fail to see that she was all that busy. Her community service was 300 hours, over six months. That is

less than 12 hours a week. The DAR job wasn't full-time as I recall.

When she was sixteen she was managing a demanding academic schedule at Chilton, taking part in extra-curricular activities like The Franklin, and working a couple of afternoons a week at the Independence Inn.

As to her personal life - both Logan and Dean had responsibilities besides squiring Rory around. So I am presuming her social activities took up about the same amount of time for each, although probably a bit more time with Logan.

And unlike when she was living in New Haven or Stars Hollow, she had no domestic duties either.

Cleaning, laundry and suchlike were all taken care of.

 

The conversation she had with Richard in We've Got Magic To Do is five months or so after she moved to the pool house and appeared to be the first one about books and reading  in some time. Whatever the other issues going on in the extended family, I find this to be sad. Books were what bonded Richard and Rory in the first place.

it suddenly seemed like everyone just had money to burn. Luke bought a whole building. Then they remodeled Lorelei's house. Then Luke was going to buy that twelve bedroom house.

 

I always believed that Luke could have had a lot of money stashed away. Presumably after his parents died, he and Liz inherited  the family home,  the hardware store building and whatever other assets - financial or otherwise - the senior Danes' had. Luke likely took  some of the money from his share to remodel the store and set up the diner. He used the office above the diner as his residence, minimizing his accommodation costs. His hobbies - camping, fishing, woodworking - were not inherently expensive ones to enjoy.  His only vehicle was several years old and he maintained it himself. He didn't travel and wasn't a big spender when dating - Lorelai was the first woman for whom he bought flowers. I doubt that he invested in plaid shirt futures. I think he lived well below his means and might easily have been quite well-to-do.

[Eyes High]

Not only does Paris seem more creative, she's better rounded. I think Rory could get good grades in math and science but I dunno, I can't see her acing a pre-med track at Yale. Maybe that's lack of interest, rather than aptitude. However, I think Paris is very rare for acing pre-med and getting involved in political clubs and being editor of the YDN. Apropos of nothing, Paris also has these handy skills that come out of nowhere like being a great construction worker, speaking multiple languages, being terrific at crafts like the paper hat, krav mega, or these out-of-the-box but brilliant strategies for how to thrive in DA HOOD.

 

These are all very good points. The highly gifted people I know have tended to excel pretty easily at pretty much everything they try. They just get things and process information more quickly than anyone else, so they pick up new skills and activities very quickly. They take an adult ballet class as a beginner and the teacher assumes that they have experience. They take up singing as a hobby and wind up surpassing fellow students who've been studying voice for much longer than they have. They play a complicated board game for the first time and end up winning. It's kind of annoying, actually. Some of these people I know get pretty lazy, since they know they can put in half the effort as everyone else and do twice as well.

 

On the other hand, maybe the same applies to Rory. Maybe Rory isn't shown to be working as hard as Paris seems to be doing because she doesn't need to work as hard to achieve the same level of success, being smarter than Paris. Very smart people can often achieve the same success as smart "grinders" without working as hard in their studies, because they process information more quickly. (I've even known some people who make a little game out of seeing how little effort they can put in while still achieving excellent grades.) It's a possibility, anyway.

 

Rory's HUGE strength over Paris is charm and emotional intelligence.

 

No argument there. I remember on the TWOP boards when Paris revealed that she had chosen that she wanted to be a doctor instead of being a lawyer, several posters despaired of her choice because her bedside manner would be nonexistent, while Paris seemed a natural fit for lawyering (especially litigating), but it seemed misguided to me, because not only is empathy important for lawyers as well (or at least being able to feign it), but medicine attracts a lot of supersmart, socially inept Paris types who do quite well for themselves in the field despite having horrible people skills.

 

I have less evidence with Jess. I just think there's some beyond-amazing potential there if he could go toe-to-toe with Rory

 

I also got the sense that Jess was very smart, because he reminds me of high schoolers I knew who were very intelligent. They were just as insufferable as he could be, and then some.

 

Weirdly, the smartest person I know in real life is temperamentally exactly like Rory at her best on the show: gentle, sweet, thoughtful, unassuming, soft-spoken, polite, well-mannered, conflict-averse, and tactful. However, that person works and is very successful in a field that attracts the best and the brightest of the best and the brightest, and from what they've told me, their colleagues tend to be more like Paris (blunt, charmless, forthright, extremely intense and focused workhorses) or Jess (perceptive, logical, irreverent towards authority, mouthy and argumentative).

 

I agree that Rory hardly fits the profile of what I usually associate with an extremely intelligent young person or a person destined for career success. She doesn't seem to show the requisite level of insight and ability or the requisite level of motivation or ambition. It seems unlikely that someone with her temperament and level of motivation would achieve the level of success she did on the show or that she would go on to achieve great success in her chosen field. With that said, there are highly intelligent, highly successful people who are like her. They are so rare that they are basically unicorns, but they do exist.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Eyes High

[Melancholy]

When did this happen? Lorelai told her she couldn't move back home from New Haven  and do nothing - but that is not the same thing as giving her the heave-ho. And Lorelai was genuinely taken aback when she learned from Richard and Emily that Rory was moving into the pool house.

 

Lorelai was hoping that an intervention would land Rory in Yale. But IMO, Lorelia made herself clear that Rory only had two option- Yale/other Ivy League university or hit the streets. 

 

RORY: I don’t want to do that! I don’t want to wander around a school where everyone else is focused and working toward something and I’m just floating!

LORELAI: So what’s the great master plan, then, huh? You’re going to move back home, live in your room, work part-time at the bookstore? Forget it. Not an option.

 

That's not an abolition that Rory couldn't do go home and DO NOTHING. That's an abolition that Rory could go home and get some simple, cushy job in Stars Hallow to figure out her life. Lorelai laid down her ultimatum- go back to a university or support yourself out of my house. Of course, Lorelai was taken aback that Rory moved into the poolhouse. Lorelai thought she and her parents would have an intervention to make Rory go back to school, to put this unpleasantness behind them. However, it wasn't because Lorelai had an inviting home completely open to Rory but Rory spurned it. Rory couldn't go home again, unless it was just over the summer with plans to go to university in the fall. 

 

 

 

I fail to see that she was all that busy. Her community service was 300 hours, over six months. That is

less than 12 hours a week. The DAR job wasn't full-time as I recall.

 

My impression was that Rory was trying to get her community service over with and doing far more than 12 hours a week. Rory basically finished in two months- over 37 hours a week (and I understand that these criminal community service gigs have a lot of travel, administrative, security time that doesn't even count towards your total). Plus, I think the DAR job was a part time that ended up becoming a beyond full-time job at peak points (like the USO party) because Rory was a perfectionist about these parties. Rory really seemed busy from Fight Face till she left the grandparents, among the busiest that we saw her. Downright harried in Fight Face, The UnGraduate, We've Got Magic to Do, and Let Me Hear You Balalaikas Ring Out. 

 

I don't know if it was the first conversation that Rory/Richard had about books or the first in some time. I lean towards the latter- books and current events are conversations that Richard is always game for. I actually think Richard and Emily had their own distinct visions of a friend!Rory brightening their lives as a companion when they took her in. However, Emily had all of this shrewish confidence to make that happen and gossip with Rory about the DAR and have tastings with her and embark with decorating projects with her, in between searching her things. But IMO, Richard was more restrained because he didn't want to invade Rory's space or seem too desperate for the 411 on what was up with her- not because he didn't enjoy her company and wasn't endlessly curious and worried about her.

 

Eyes High, I agree with everything you wrote. I always thought Paris would become an MD to go work in a pharmaceutical lab, perhaps playing her own part to satisfy her S1 ambition to have a Marie Curie-like impact on science serving humanity. That seems the perfect job for Paris- as long as whoever's in charge of clinical trials/talking to the FDA can curb her endless cravings for prestige and achievement at the expense of empathy or caution for other human lives and her own true mental health and well-being. (But then, critics say Marie Curie had the same problem- but humanity still got the society-changing radium.) 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

My impression was that Rory was trying to get her community service over with and doing far more than 12 hours a week. Rory basically finished in two months- over 37 hours a week

 

Rory was sentenced in June, I believe. She still had slightly more than one third of her community service - 104 hours - still to go in October - as she told Lorelai at her birthday party. She wasn't exactly plowing through it.

But IMO, Richard was more restrained because he didn't want to invade Rory's space or seem too desperate for the 411 on what was up with her

 

Except when it involved her sex life, of course.

Edited January 5, 2016 by dustylil

[Melancholy]

Rory was sentenced in June, I believe. She still had slightly more than one third of her community service - 104 hours - still to go in October - as she told Lorelai at her birthday party. She wasn't exactly plowing through it.

 

My impression that Rory was first eligible to start serving her hours in mid-Fight Face. The next ep, The UnGraduate occurred right around the start of the fall semester at Yale. I can't imagine there was more than two weeks between Fight Face and The UnGraduate. The eps themselves aired in early  September. So yeah, I think it's a lot work for Rory to do almost 200 hours in like, a month and a half, on top of her DAR work. I don't want to comb through the transcripts- but I thought it was repeated ad naseum from Fight Face through Let Your Balalaikas that Rory's community service/DAR/keeping up with Emily's whims/Logan life was very, very busy. Rory's problem wasn't that she didn't have enough to do, especially community service- it's that it was a waste of time designed by Rory's crappy decisions and even more, while I think she *was* plowing through her community service and impressing at the DAR by going beyond her part-time requirements, Rory wasn't finding any fulfillment or true education in those activities or in her grandparents or in Paris/Lane who remained great friends to her because she was approaching life with the same silly, spoiled, callowness that landed her in this predicament. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

But IMO, Richard was more restrained because he didn't want to invade Rory's space or seem too desperate for the 411 on what was up with her

 

    

Except when it involved her sex life, of course.

 

I remember Emily and Richard getting upset when they found out Rory was lying about spending time with Paris, when it turned out she was actually having Logan over or spending the night with him, and ending up having Rory talk to the priest and moving her back into the main house.  I also remember Richard getting upset over Rory dating Dean, during the first season, and then a few seasons on arranging the male Yale party.  (Though I think that situation was just about finding her a more suitable boyfriend, not really sex in general.)  What other times did Richard interfere in Rory's sex life?      

 

 

My impression was that Rory was trying to get her community service over with and doing far more than 12 hours a week. Rory basically finished in two months- over 37 hours a week (and I understand that these criminal community service gigs have a lot of travel, administrative, security time that doesn't even count towards your total). Plus, I think the DAR job was a part time that ended up becoming a beyond full-time job at peak points (like the USO party) because Rory was a perfectionist about these parties.

 

I would agree.  The show left the impression she was trying to finish her community service quickly.  I think you are also right that you can, for example, spend eight hours a day doing things related to your community service, but that does not necessarily mean you get eight hours of credit for that particular day.