Season 6: Speculation

[paigow]

34 minutes ago, arjumand said:

About the dragons - it's been theorised that they have to die, that all magic has to leave Westeros to get the place out of the feudal hierarchy dead end.

It would be better if the "Desolation of Drogon" comes to pass. He gets the power of speech [e.g. Tom Hardy's Bane], steals all the gold and hides in a mountain. There could be another season of quests to kill him.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Add another reason why Jon & Sansa isn't going to happen: the odds of it happening in the book are so unlikely that it leaves the filmed version all the more vulnerable to a remake if they go that far off the reservation.

Honestly, I think its rather likely to happen in the books as well. I know a lot of people have invested themselves in a lot of theories of how they think the story will end, but the showrunners actually KNOW how this story ends and I don't think they'd be making the choices they have with Jon and Sansa if that wasn't where the books were going as well.

For starters, show Jon and Sansa aren't THAT far away from their book counterparts. Littlefinger's plans for Sansa involve her revealing her true identity and rallying the Vale to help her reclaim Winterfell (probably by becoming engaged to the Lord of the Vale). So she's on her way to Winterfell with the armies of the Vale at her back in the books at some point in the near future.

Meanwhile Jon will be free of his NW oaths and has been named the Lord of Winterfell in Robb's will. Either Stannis is going to retake Winterfell and allows Robb's will to stand for Jon's loyal service or Stannis will die and Jon will have to win it back himself using the Free Folk and a smattering of minor lords. Either way he's on his way back to Winterfell to become its Lord.

Throw in a reason for Sansa to back Jon as the Lord of Winterfell over Littlefinger's play (we already know she'll be his downfall in some fashion in the books) and the only real difference between the show and the books at that point would be that Jon and Sansa reunite at Winterfell with the armies of the Vale and the Free Folk in tow after the castle has been retaken instead of before the campaign begins up at Castle Black.

One cousin reveal and showing a political advantage to Jon and Sansa marrying and you've got a new King and Queen of Winterfell in the books (as well as the show).

Now, here's the trick to it... if nothing were going to come of Jon/Sansa but a sibling bond the showrunners wouldn't have needed to deviate so much from the story. They could have had them reunite at the end of this season or early next season after Winterfell is reclaimed. But the showrunners, who know how it all ends, made the conscious choice to give Jon and Sansa an entire extra season together so that the audience could get used to seeing them together working for a common cause while dressed up as Ned/Cat 2.0. There's no reason for that unless you're laying the groundwork for something more than just semi-siblings.

It takes longer to tell a romantic story on television relative to how long one would take in the books (relative to the page count) so they would need the major endgame couple together with enough time to tell that story in a way general audiences would be satisfied with (and that's the core of most of their adaptational choices... what they think will sell to general audiences). Giving Jon/Sansa an extra season as we close in on the endgame fits right into those parameters (if Dany or Arya were Jon's endgame they'd already be in Westeros by now).

Edited June 9, 2016 by Chris24601

[SeanC]

46 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Littlefinger's plans for Sansa involve her revealing her true identity and rallying the Vale to help her reclaim Winterfell (probably by becoming engaged to the Lord of the Vale).

By marrying the Lord of the Eyrie, not becoming engaged.  And in any event, that plan is nowhere near fruition; she's not heading north anytime soon, from the looks of it.

Quote

Now, here's the trick to it... if nothing were going to come of Jon/Sansa but a sibling bond the showrunners wouldn't have needed to deviate so much from the story. They could have had them reunite at the end of this season or early next season after Winterfell is reclaimed. But the showrunners, who know how it all ends, made the conscious choice to give Jon and Sansa an entire extra season together so that the audience could get used to seeing them together working for a common cause while dressed up as Ned/Cat 2.0. There's no reason for that unless you're laying the groundwork for something more than just semi-siblings.

That's a really huge leap.  The simplest reason for why they put them together is because there's nothing else for her to do all season, and in theory it's meant to show her coming into her own as a player (even if the writing for that has totally failed thus far).

Edited June 9, 2016 by SeanC

[spottedreptile]

21 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

Personally, I would love to see this thing end with no wall, no Iron Throne, and no Seven Kingdoms.

Yes!!! If the whole thing is going to mean something at the end, we can't just end up with more of the same after shuffling the chairs. 

If this is a modern story written about medieval times, then a paradigm shift is more than probable on several levels i.e. right to the throne, feudalism, ancient traditions, sorcery, etc will all be consigned to the flames, literally. A new world will emerge.

or maybe George is just fooling around and it will all start again in a new cycle . . .

Edited June 9, 2016 by spottedreptile

[SeanC]

Tomorrow we get whatever the resolution to Arya's story is.  The internet is wild with fan theories about this, which really break down into two different interpretations of the show's writers.  For instance:

1.  The episode before Arya was looking confident and about to use all her ninja training; there's no way the character would be wandering around Braavos in the open and then get stabbed like a chump.

Hopeful explanation:  because that wasn't actually Arya, it was Jaqen or somebody else in disguise.

Cynical explanation:  because the show's writers wanted it to happen.

2.  The Waif doesn't act remotely like a Faceless Man, with a bizarre personal vendetta against Arya.

Hopeful explanation:  because the Waif is actually the one being tested by Jaqen (see above), and she failed.

Cynical explanation:  because the writers wanted this story to have an easily identifiable villain.

Tomorrow, we'll see if hope or cynicism prevails!

[SeanC]

Cynicism wins!

[ParadoxLost]

There is something up with the way they are portraying Jamie.

They went to great lengths to make it clear that Jamie is firmly on the side of the bad guys without honor because of his blind devotion to Cersei.

But they did it in a way that didn't put actual blood on his hands and didn't completely sever his relationship with Brienne.

I'm thinking that the Lannisters are going to end with a murder (Cersei)- suicide (Jamie) after Cersei disillusions Jaimie in some major way. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[Winnief]

Quote

Cynicism wins!

It usually does!  But to be fair to D&D, judging from Jaqen's reaction it did seem almost as if killing Arya was a sort of test for the Waif after all-and one she failed miserably. 

 

Quote

Now, here's the trick to it... if nothing were going to come of Jon/Sansa but a sibling bond the showrunners wouldn't have needed to deviate so much from the story. They could have had them reunite at the end of this season or early next season after Winterfell is reclaimed. But the showrunners, who know how it all ends, made the conscious choice to give Jon and Sansa an entire extra season together so that the audience could get used to seeing them together working for a common cause while dressed up as Ned/Cat 2.0. There's no reason for that unless you're laying the groundwork for something more than just semi-siblings.

It takes longer to tell a romantic story on television relative to how long one would take in the books (relative to the page count) so they would need the major endgame couple together with enough time to tell that story in a way general audiences would be satisfied with (and that's the core of most of their adaptational choices... what they think will sell to general audiences). Giving Jon/Sansa an extra season as we close in on the endgame fits right into those parameters (if Dany or Arya were Jon's endgame they'd already be in Westeros by now).

I've wondered about that myself.  Also I did see signs in the books, that Jon/Sansa MIGHT be possible...it certainly looks more and more like Sansa IS the YMBQ.  Also that famous first outline of Martin's seemed to suggest Jon/Arya would happen.  But as the story started shaping up it became obvious Arya/Jon wouldn't happen, so I think Martin decided to give Arya's Romantic Love Interest role to Sansa instead for various reasons-including the fact that without the five year gap it makes a helluva lot more sense age wise.  Just a theory, but we'll see. 

 

And I always thought setting up the Jon/Sansa dynamic was in fact at least 50% of why they brought Sansa up North to begin with.  I thought that before their reunion.  Now of course setting up the dynamic doesn't mean it will turn romantic-the writers may have just wanted the interaction for character reasons the way they made Bronn/Jaime traveling buddies...but it was an interesting choice.  Let's just see. 

 

Ultimately whether Jon/Sansa happens or not I'm feeling increasingly confident not only that Jon/Arya won't happen, (not only the age matter but let's be honest-Arya's not exactly the marrying kind,) but that Jon/Dany won't either.  The latter pairing might make perfect dynastic/political sense but the more we see of them as people the less I can picture it working.  Even less can I imagine Dany helping to rebuild Westeros after all this is over.  Love alone isn't enough for marriage in the Great Game, but political marriages without any thought to basic compatibility can be equally disastrous as well; look at Robert and Cersei. 

 

One other match I COULD see, *might* be Tyrion/Sansa as a power couple.  I'm not sure it's the best thing for either of them, but it might make sense under certain conditions...but frankly I do consider it unlikely at this point. 

[kittykat]

Battle of the Bastards! Is it next Sunday yet?

15 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

There is something up with the way they are portraying Jamie.

They went to great lengths to make it clear that Jamie is firmly on the side of the bad guys without honor because of his blind devotion to Cersei.

But they did it in a way that didn't put actual blood on his hands and didn't completely sever his relationship with Brienne.

I'm thinking that the Lannisters are going to end with a murder (Cersei)- suicide (Jamie) after Cersei disillusions Jaimie in some major way. 

I don't think Jaime wanted to bring it to battle, as he didn't in the book. I don't think he hates the Tullys and he clearly disdains the Freys.  I think he almost wished that the two of them were fighting the Freys but that's not the hand Tywin dealt them.

If they do put the valonqar in play they could still have him murder Cersei but I still see his breach with her having to do with hearing about the White walkers and turning his army north.

[Winnief]

2 minutes ago, kittykat said:

relationship with Brienne.

I'm thinking that the Lannisters are going to end with a murder (Cersei)- suicide (Jamie) after Cersei

I think if/when Jaime kills Cersei it will be because she torches (or tries to torch) KL.  I also think the rumor Qyborn was reporting on to Cersei was about the jars of wildfire hidden all over KL.

[ParadoxLost]

I'm not sure that torching KL ala the Mad King will be enough to get Jamie to turn on Cersei.

But based on the Catelyn / Cersei comparison tonight, I think that Cersei will intentionally kill or sacrifice Tommen to get her revenge or for power and that will be what pushes Jamie to turn on Cersei. 

[Oscirus]

So anybody else get the feeling that Varys and Tyrion's goodbye is going to be permanent?

[InsertWordHere]

I am actually pretty excited for Asha and Theon to meet Dany. Also for Tyrion and Theon to meet again since they did have that one scene in Season 1 where they both taunted each other. Too bad Varys left because I am sure these writers would have loved to put in some eunuch jokes with Theon, Varys, Grey Worm and the Unsullied all in one place. 

Since the Masters kindly brought all their ships to Dany, she won't need Euron. All she has to do is make sure Drogon doesn't burn them. When Asha and Theon arrive, they can space out some of their sailors among all the ships. 

[glowbug]

20 hours ago, Winnief said:

I think if/when Jaime kills Cersei it will be because she torches (or tries to torch) KL. 

I've thought this too ever since Bran's vision of Jaime killing the Mad King after he says burn them all. Why remind the audience of this if it won't become relevant later? If they simply wanted to remind us of the wildfire they didn't have to show Jamie murdering the Mad King because of it. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by glowbug
Because his name is Jaime not Jamie.

[ElizaD]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

I've thought this too ever since Bran's vision of Jamie killing the Mad King after he says burn them all. Why remind the audience of this if it won't become relevant later? If they simply wanted to remind us of the wildfire they didn't have to show Jamie murdering the Mad King because of it. 

"The things we do for love" actually made me think we'll get a second parallel too, in addition to Cersei/Aerys, and the speculation that Tommen jumps from a window (either to escape the fire or in despair after he sees Cersei has burned the Sept) turns out to be correct. Jaime is going to lose his son to a fall, just like Roose got stabbed and lost a wife/son the way Robb did. I hope it'll at least be clear whether Tommen's death is accidental or if Cersei feels so hopeless that she's doing a version of the planned Blackwater murder/suicide by burning the High Sparrow/Tyrells even though Tommen is with them.

[paigow]

If Arya is going to be relevant this season, she needs to land at one of the eastern ports of Westeros and find a wormhole to Winterfell or The Twins. But since she has "Deadpool / Wolverine" level of healing, anything is possible.

[AliShibaz]

I seem to recall in an older episode when Cersei was a young girl, she went to a witch and asked about her future. The witch told her she would have 3 children and, if I recall correctly, they would all die before she did.

When Tommen made his pronouncement and then left the throne room, Cersei never tried to stop him and say anything to him. I got the impression that she had decided he was lost to her and worthless and it would be just fine if he died. I'm guessing that he will die and maybe sooner than we might expect - like sometime in the next two episodes.

Can anyone tell me please, if Tommen was to die, who would take over as the ruler?

P.S. Speaking as a man who experienced going through puberty and getting some sex at an early age, Tommen must have been overjoyed and over the moon at being able to have sex with Margaery. Hell, I would be over the moon to have sex with her. But now that she is no longer interested in satisfying his sexual desires, his life must be a very empty lonely and horney experience. I sure would bet that under these circumstances, he is likely to do something stupid that will get him killed. Poor boy. He never had a chance. Did he? Would Jaimie become the next king? At least that would be interesting.

Oh!!! ... Could this have something to do with why Varys is returning to Westeros? Is he coming back to try and put some pieces of the puzzle in order so that Dany can take over as King? (or Queen)?

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I seem to recall in an older episode when Cersei was a young girl, she went to a witch and asked about her future. The witch told her she would have 3 children and, if I recall correctly, they would all die before she did.

When Tommen made his pronouncement and then left the throne room, Cersei never tried to stop him and say anything to him. I got the impression that she had decided he was lost to her and worthless and it would be just fine if he died. I'm guessing that he will die and maybe sooner than we might expect - like sometime in the next two episodes.

Can anyone tell me please, if Tommen was to die, who would take over as the ruler?

P.S. Speaking as a man who experienced going through puberty and getting some sex at an early age, Tommen must have been overjoyed and over the moon at being able to have sex with Margaery. Hell, I would be over the moon to have sex with her. But now that she is no longer interested in satisfying his sexual desires, his life must be a very empty lonely and horney experience. I sure would bet that under these circumstances, he is likely to do something stupid that will get him killed. Poor boy. He never had a chance. Did he? Would Jaimie become the next king? At least that would be interesting.

Oh!!! ... Could this have something to do with why Varys is returning to Westeros? Is he coming back to try and put some pieces of the puzzle in order so that Dany can take over as King? (or Queen)?

Stannis would be ruled if Tommen passed but that's in the books where Stannis is still alive. 

[Alapaki]

22 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

Stannis would be ruled if Tommen passed but that's in the books where Stannis is still alive. 

Myrcella is still alive in the books as well.  Without wading back into the question of where a female stands in the line of succession, I'm confident that the Lannisters would push for Myrcella's coronation before they'd yield to Stannis.

[ElizaD]

The Lannisters and the Freys will be having a feast in 6x10, and even though Jaime wants to rush back to Cersei I doubt he can abandon his men yet. I don't know what kind of teleporting logic could be used to get Arya from Braavos to Westeros and then to Riverrun after she hears about the Freys, but it's at least a possibility that Jaime and Arya will be in the same scene in 6x10, even if he never spots her since she'd be trying to stay undercover.

I was never really convinced by Cleganebowl, but I thought Sandor's story would nonetheless be in the south if he resurfaced. I like this new possibility of him going North much more. Jon/Tormund, Sansa/Brienne + Arya/Sandor could be good teams in season 7.

Sam/Gilly had a short plot this season. A little surprising, but better than stretching it needlessly as happens with bigger names. I expect a quick 6x10 scene that hints at what they'll do in season 7.

Everything does seem to be moving extra fast so that the series can finish in 13 episodes. If Arya kills Freys in the finale, that would free her to go North and potentially make season 7 Team Stark vs. the White Walkers and Team Dany (+ Olenna, Theon/Yara, maybe the Sands) vs. Cersei and Euron. North/ice and South/fire - basically just two main plots.

[kittykat]

I totally believe Arya could be in Westeros by 6x10.  If Littlefinger can get from the Vale to Mole's Town in one episode's time and Jaime from KL to Riverrun then I can totally see Arya stowing away on a boat to either Saltpans or White Harbor and making it to the Twins.  I'm assuming Varys will be back to KL by then too and he has a long way to go.

11 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Everything does seem to be moving extra fast so that the series can finish in 13 episodes. If Arya kills Freys in the finale, that would free her to go North and potentially make season 7 Team Stark vs. the White Walkers and Team Dany (+ Olenna, Theon/Yara, maybe the Sands) vs. Cersei and Euron. North/ice and South/fire - basically just two main plots.

I'm predicting this as well as the set up for S7-1.  With Dany flying north for S7-2.  If rumors are to be believed the Sands return in 6x10 forging some alliance (Olenna is the likely one since they have downplayed the Tyrell/Martell feud in the show). 

[AliShibaz]

2 hours ago, Alapaki said:

Myrcella is still alive in the books as well.  Without wading back into the question of where a female stands in the line of succession, I'm confident that the Lannisters would push for Myrcella's coronation before they'd yield to Stannis.

I thank you for your help. However, I think it's pretty clear that both Stannis & Myrcella are dead and gone.

So, can anyone venture a guess what would happen if Tommen were to die? Who would become the new King or Queen? If there is no one in succession, would there likely be a big and violent fight or war about it?

What about Margaery? How likely is it that she would remain Queen and take the reigns? If HS is convinced she is his follower, he might try to help her become the new ruler? I'm asking because I can see this possibly becoming an issue later this season or possibly even the "cliff hanger" that will lead us into next season?

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

I thank you for your help. However, I think it's pretty clear that both Stannis & Myrcella are dead and gone.

So, can anyone venture a guess what would happen if Tommen were to die? Who would become the new King or Queen? If there is no one in succession, would there likely be a big and violent fight or war about it?

What about Margaery? How likely is it that she would remain Queen and take the reigns? If HS is convinced she is his follower, he might try to help her become the new ruler? I'm asking because I can see this possibly becoming an issue later this season or possibly even the "cliff hanger" that will lead us into next season?

As far as I know, there are no living Baratheon heirs, so that line would be extinguished.  

In all likelihood, setting aside the pesky zombie apocalypse bearing down on Westeros, the major family Houses would all consider vying for the Throne by coming up with some connection, no matter how tenuous, to either the Baratheon or Targaryen bloodlines.  Between Jon Arryn, Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon, Robert was chosen to be the one to claim the throne because he had some bloodline connection to the Targaryens.

One or more houses might decide to work together to ensure their success.  And they might have enough military might to dissuade any other challengers.

Someone might see this as the perfect time to be the "man behind the woman" and bring an actual, direct Targaryen heir back in Dany.

[DigitalCount]

I seem to remember an article recently stating that due to a weird web of intermarriages, Cersei is actually the lawful heir of Tommen, if one went back further than Robert's Targ grandmother, given the extinction of House Baratheon. I can't remember what the steps were, but Cersei can claim lineage as Tywin could have, just much more distantly than Robert, hence his claim being supported as the best one.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I seem to remember an article recently stating that due to a weird web of intermarriages, Cersei is actually the lawful heir of Tommen, if one went back further than Robert's Targ grandmother, given the extinction of House Baratheon. I can't remember what the steps were, but Cersei can claim lineage as Tywin could have, just much more distantly than Robert, hence his claim being supported as the best one.

That article was based on material that was developed for an online game.  It hasn't ever been referred to as series canon, I don't believe.

So, is there anything more for Brienne in the Riverlands, or is she just headed back North?  If the latter, I'd honestly would have rather she just stayed in the North and got to kick some Bolton ass at the upcoming battle.

[Greta]

I know it's not canon, but there's a beautiful GRRM-esque irony to Cersei being the lawful heir to the Iron Throne, especially if she finds this out and then decides Tommen's fate.  All the talk about Mama Lion Cersei's one redeeming quality could have been leading to that moment.

I also appreciate Brienne's character and GC's acting too much to think her actual arc (which was always going to lead back to the Sansa/Catelyn/vows vs. Jaime dilemma) should be dismissed in favor of being a Stark weapon in a setpiece battle, especially since she's repeatedly said she's not Team Stark, she's Team Sansa.  I expect next week to bore me silly if it's all fighting and few if any character moments.

[Winnief]

If Tommen dies, under the present circumstances, my guess is Margaery would be 'carrying his heir,' but Dany's right would look stronger than ever. 

Of course once the Big Reveal is made, then another candidate is going to look like a very, VERY plausible choice indeed....whether that candidate even wants the damn IT or not,(and he most certainly doesn't) he may be obligated to claim it simply as Westeros's best chance for not devolving into chaos at that point.  To me that outcome is looking more and more likely at this point.

[nksarmi]

Since Robert only claimed the thrown through Targ blood - I think the Martells would have had the best claim. Too bad they were all killed on the show. :)

I think if Tommen dies - everyone will pretty much accept Dany as queen if she ever gets her butt over there to take it. That is, of course, if any of that even matters since "Winter is Coming."

[Audreythe2nd]

Quote

So, is there anything more for Brienne in the Riverlands, or is she just headed back North?  If the latter, I'd honestly would have rather she just stayed in the North and got to kick some Bolton ass at the upcoming battle.

Yes.

Lest we forget the following things: a) she's not in the North in the books, doesn't even know Sansa, b) she's with Jaime in the books, c) the show sent her to the Riverlands to purposely meet up with Jaime regardless of her starting the season in the North. So you know... I think points A and B are still going to come into play here. 

And I don't think Jaime is going back to King's Landing.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Audreythe2nd said:

Lest we forget the following things: a) she's not in the North in the books, doesn't even know Sansa, b) she's with Jaime in the books, c) the show sent her to the Riverlands to purposely meet up with Jaime regardless of her starting the season in the North. So you know... I think points A and B are still going to come into play here. 

And I don't think Jaime is going back to King's Landing.

Except Brienne's story in the Riverlands on the show is done... she was sent to get the Blackfish and his army and failed so now she's going back to Sansa. Odds are good she'll be back in time for the finale.

Her story with Jaime is done too... she offered the sword back and he told her it was hers and they had their goodbye wave as Pod rowed them away from Riverrun. After all of his "I care only about Cersei" and particularly his "The things we do for love" callback that really did feel like a final goodbye to me... Jaime's made his choice and its Cersei to the bitter end.

I think Jaime is going to King's Landing; or at least back to Cersei. I know people have a whole lot wrapped up Jaime having a redemption arc and have pegged hopes on Cersei finally doing something so horrible it opens his eyes, but the showrunners know the ending and they've set him on a path where he really doesn't give a damn what she does. At this point I don't see anything she does being enough to turn him against her.

Not all redemption stories end successfully. We're already on the path for at least one with Sandor Clegane it seems. It might very well be that GRRM told D&D that Jaime ultimately fails in his efforts to stay away from Cersei and ends up going back to her and dying right alongside her as a villain, so the showrunners just decided "why bother with a redemption arc that's never going to stick?"

If so, I wouldn't even blame them for skipping it. Arya's pointless detour for the past two seasons was bad enough and imagine if they had actually spent an entire freaking season following Tyrion through the brothels of Essos asking where whores go?

[Audreythe2nd]

Chris24601, I disagree with you respectfully and wholeheartedly.

I don't think Brienne's Riverlands story is done. You think the moved her there (where she just so happens to be in the books) to fail, have a convo with Jaime, and return to Sansa? For what purpose? I think in both the book and the show her story from this point forward, is in large part about her and Jaime. Not just that, but in large part.

Jaime is not going to end up choosing Cersei. I'm fairly confident of that. This is the show's brand of ridiculously ironic foreshadowing. See: Robb Stark making a plan to attack Casterly Rock by aligning with the Freys to do it. Plus a ton of other examples.

Quote

Not all redemption stories end successfully. We're already on the path for at least one with Sandor Clegane it seems. It might very well be that GRRM told D&D that Jaime ultimately fails in his efforts to stay away from Cersei and ends up going back to her and dying right alongside her as a villain, so the showrunners just decided "why bother with a redemption arc that's never going to stick?"

Lol. This is not what they are doing. Jaime IS on a redemption arc, and his actions contrasted with Cersei's actions in this episode show it. What everyone else sees as them saying "why bother" with his redemption, I see as them dragging out the final piece of it (his tie to Cersei) until they are narratively ready for him to let it go. And he's going to let it go SOON; I suspect Brienne is the catalyst. In the books, when faced with the prospect of returning to KL and his duties to Tommen and the KG (a slightly different circumstance, but it has almost the exact same spirit) he goes with Brienne. Yes, the situation is different because of no LSH in the show - it doesn't matter. I think this is the plot point from the books people need to take stronger note of because it gets Jaime in a totally different direction from KL (we can assume). At this late stage, I really don't think they are going to change that movement and have him head in the other direction (especially since, as you said, D&D know the ending and purposely made Jaime go to the Riverlands to reunite with Brienne in the first place).

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I'm right, I read the writing on the wall correctly.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Audreythe2nd said:

I don't think Brienne's Riverlands story is done. You think the moved her there (where she just so happens to be in the books) to fail, have a convo with Jaime, and return to Sansa? For what purpose? I think in both the book and the show her story from this point forward, is in large part about her and Jaime. Not just that, but in large part.

I agree with a lot of this in theory (and I certainly agree that the writers are just postponing his break with Cersei to make it more a Shock Twist, as they often do), but in practise, what would keep Brienne in the Riverlands at this point, narratively?  Nobody is chasing her, and here's no sign of any other story for her to become involved in (e.g., the Brotherhood is heading north too).

[Audreythe2nd]

I think the answer is, as you said, the Brotherhood. My suspicion is that while Jaime is somewhere still in the Riverlands (look at the trailer with the celebration with the Freys at the Twins - Lannister soldiers; I think he is going to stop there before heading back to KL and be detained by something), Brienne is in fact going to run into the BwB and be reunited with the man she killed once - ie. the Hound. In both episodes that the Hound has appeared in, he name-dropped her. If they ran into her, he would certainly recognize her. Yes, they BwB is heading North - doesn't mean we don't see them somewhere along the way first...and both they and Brienne are headed in that direction (the Twins are north of RR too, which, again, would theoretically keep Jaime in the area). That's not to say I think the conflict is going to be the same as it was in the books. I think it will simply be a mechanism to keep certain characters in the same area for a little while longer, until perhaps they can all meet up again once more. 

[glowbug]

I don't think the show runners are staying all that true to the books (we've seen big changes to character arcs and personalities already) so the fact that show Jaime is still in love with Cersei doesn't indicate anything about Jaime's journey in the books. I think TPTB are only following the broad strokes of GRRM's outline. For example, if Jaime is the one to kill Cersei in the books then he will most likely be the one to kill her in the show but his motivations or feelings might be completely different. Likewise, I think Stannis sacrificing Shireen will happen in a very different context in the books and GRRM has already confirmed that the Hodor/Hold the Door stuff plays out very differently in the books as well. Just based on the books I see no indication that Jaime is going to return to Cersei or that his redemption will fail. It could happen, of course, but there's no reason to think that at the present moment. Perhaps things will look differently to me if/when The Winds of Winter comes out.

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, glowbug said:

For example, if Jaime is the one to kill Cersei in the books then he will most likely be the one to kill her in the show but his motivations or feelings might be completely different.

I'm guessing that whatever the circumstances Jaime is going to see killing Cersei as a mercy, whether she's gone completely BSC or is sentenced to die by ~whomever~ or whatever plans Martin has for her.  Jaime will kill her from love rather than anger/jealosy/horror.  I think this will be the same in book and show.

[Audreythe2nd]

I think people take for granted that Jaime is going to kill Cersei like crazy. To the point where it's hilarious. There is almost no foreshadowing in the show whatsoever that this is going to happen, and the show likes to project this stuff about 50 years in advance. They've projected that Cersei is going to use wildfire since Season 2 for instance.

It's not out of the realm of possibility that it happens, but I by no means think it's a done deal. A ton of fan theories have been debunked this season, and I think we're going to see even more of them be debunked as the rest of the show progresses. My suspicion is that this is one of them (and it will be the one that people are most pissed off about).

[SeanC]

36 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

There is almost no foreshadowing in the show whatsoever that this is going to happen, and the show likes to project this stuff about 50 years in advance.

The show's use of foreshadowing is highly variable.  In some instances they use anvils; in others there's little or none.

[Audreythe2nd]

True enough. But I'm just saying that there isn't some abundance of evidence to have people believe in this so *resolutely* without considering any other possibilities (other than - "Hey! Isn't this a cool idea? It has circularity, I like it, therefore it must be what happens.") The prophecy isn't even IN the show. Again, I'm not saying that it's not going to happen - I'm just saying that people have, for some reason, failed to consider other possibilities when I think the show *is* telegraphing those other possibilities.

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

True enough. But I'm just saying that there isn't some abundance of evidence to have people believe in this so *resolutely* without considering any other possibilities (other than - "Hey! Isn't this a cool idea? It has circularity, I like it, therefore it must be what happens.") The prophecy isn't even IN the show. Again, I'm not saying that it's not going to happen - I'm just saying that people have, for some reason, failed to consider other possibilities when I think the show *is* telegraphing those other possibilities.

The producers have gone on and on about how the major character endings with be the same, so it's not really surprising that the second part of the prophecy being omitted hasn't affected that.  If anything, I've tended to view the omission of that part as confirming that the most obvious interpretation of it is the correct one, and the writers want to avoid giving that away.

[Audreythe2nd]

I have a different interpretation of that - I think they simply wanted to avoid giving away that Cersei is going to die (or when/if/how). The prophecy literally spells that out. Why not leave that a mystery, especially since the three children dying is prophecy enough.

[AshleyN]

So, I wasn't sure where to put this, but the Emmy ballots came out yesterday, and I found it kind of interesting that GoT submitted "Battle of the Bastards" as their sole writing candidate. All of tech submissions for the episode make sense (and assuming it lives up to expecations, hopefully Miguel Sapochnik will get the nomination he deserved last year for "Hardome"), but this one was surprising given that all the hype for this episode has been about the scale of the battle, and how it's the biggest ever filmed for television. Could it be that it's not as action-heavy as I thought (more "Blackwater" than "Watchers on the Wall"), or are they just going with what they feel is the best episode of the season, regardless of how "writer-y" it is?

[glowbug]

For the record, I wasn't saying that Jaime would necessarily kill Cersei (though I think that's the most likely scenario based on the books) but that if he does kill her in the books then the show runners would have him kill her in the show as well because they do seem to be following the character's major plot points (except when they combine characters). However, the context in which it happens and his motivations for doing so and his feelings about it might be completely different in the books and the show. A good example of this would be Robb breaking his engagement to a Frey and marrying someone else. It happens in both the show and the books but his motivations and the circumstances surrounding it are very different as are Jeyne and Talisa. 

Also, I do believe there may have been some foreshadowing in the show that Jaime is going to kill Cersei. I keep going back to Bran's vision when he sees Jaime killing the Mad King because he was threatening to burn down the city with wildfire. If TPTB simply wanted to remind us about the wildfire there was no need to include Jaime killing the Mad King because of it but they specifically wanted us to remember that, which makes me think it's important. It's not definitive but it could be a hint.

[nksarmi]

5 hours ago, Audreythe2nd said:

True enough. But I'm just saying that there isn't some abundance of evidence to have people believe in this so *resolutely* without considering any other possibilities (other than - "Hey! Isn't this a cool idea? It has circularity, I like it, therefore it must be what happens.") The prophecy isn't even IN the show. Again, I'm not saying that it's not going to happen - I'm just saying that people have, for some reason, failed to consider other possibilities when I think the show *is* telegraphing those other possibilities.

Well - the little brother prophesy hasn't made it into the show yet, so other theories just don't matter at this point. I think the undead Tommen one is very good, but there is even less evidence that White Walkers will reach KL in the show than there is that Jamie will eventually break with Cersei.

I actually think the show is going so heavy handed with the "us against the world" crap that that's your anvil. I think they are holding the Jamie/Cersei break as long as they can so it will be all the more shocking (and give Lena her Emmy reel stuff) when it finally occurs. I also think they want to keep Cersei/Lena around a bit longer so they might change her story a tad to make it happen. But ultimately, I think it's coming.

I think the show foreshadowed Jamie's death pretty heavily last season (dying in the arms of the woman I love) - it's just a matter of who that woman is - Cersei or Brie. I suspect Jamie will die heroically in some finale battle - maybe even coming full circle and saving Bran's life and then die in Brie's arms. If that wasn't at least a possibility, I don't think they would have had Bron go on about rather or not the two of them were "doing it" in the tent or have Jamie give Brie longing looks. Jamie's split IS coming - they are just delaying it for shock value. Now Jamie's path changing doesn't necessarily mean he kills Cersei, but I do think he will get an abbreviated redemption arc. I think GRRM has invested too much is asking the question "can this man be redeemed after his opening act?" to abandon that path in the last several books. Ergo, D&D's outline almost certainly involves some selfless act in the end.

I would be perfectly happy if Jamie wasn't the one to kill Cersei - and the show might decide to ignore the "little brother" prophesy altogether. Or maybe - just maybe - Tyrion will do it and the whole prophesy will be self-fulfilling with Marg having been the YMBQ and Tyrion being the enemy she created. That would almost be more interesting that Cersei just getting it all wrong.

Edited June 15, 2016 by nksarmi

[Oscirus]

Spitballing here, but perhaps, after he dies, Brienne tells everybody the true story of what happened between Jamie and the mad king. Jamie's meager entry in the kings guard book seems to be a pretty big part of his story.

[Harald Hardrada]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 6:36 AM, spottedreptile said:

Yes!!! If the whole thing is going to mean something at the end, we can't just end up with more of the same after shuffling the chairs. 

If this is a modern story written about medieval times, then a paradigm shift is more than probable on several levels i.e. right to the throne, feudalism, ancient traditions, sorcery, etc will all be consigned to the flames, literally. A new world will emerge.

or maybe George is just fooling around and it will all start again in a new cycle . . .

Explain why so many cool Nords from History's Vikings died, I will blame it on GRRM, he must have been the secret writer of Vikings. lol

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 4:03 AM, paigow said:

It would be better if the "Desolation of Drogon" comes to pass. He gets the power of speech [e.g. Tom Hardy's Bane], steals all the gold and hides in a mountain. There could be another season of quests to kill him.

Who would be Thorin Oakenshield? Tormund Giantsbane or Jon Snow? or perhaps Wun Wun the Giant?

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Spitballing here, but perhaps, after he dies, Brienne tells everybody the true story of what happened between Jamie and the mad king. Jamie's meager entry in the kings guard book seems to be a pretty big part of his story.

Or perhaps the moral is that we are NOT the stories told about us and that the stories told later don't matter to those actually living them.

Lord knows that in the books both Jon and Sansa were enamored of the storybook heroes and princesses when the reality of them was likely nothing like what the storybooks portrayed (I've often found a great narrative irony to the two who started out believing in the storybooks only to be completely disillusioned by reality also being the ones most likely to be included in some future storybook that leaves out all the horrors that come with being a hero fighting monsters or a lady held hostage by the enemies of her family).

* * * *

On the topic of Cersei's death though and how it will play out... while it has been stated by the showrunners that the main characters will end up in the same places as their book counterparts, in the case of Cersei (and many others) that could just mean "dead" vs. "dead in this very specific way."

Due to all the time between the books (its been a decade since Sansa's last chapter and five years since Jon's 'death' in the books) I think a lot of 'fanon' has grown up regarding what some people insist is supposed to happen that probably ISN'T actually going to actually happen. A blow to some of my theories involving opposed cosmic forces was the show reveal that the Others are just a WMD created by the Children that's run amok, but I'm not going to insist there's still a chance that there's some cosmic force of ice and death behind the Others just to try and make my original fan theories fit.

Heck, maybe they left out the Valonqar line on the show because they knew it was going to be Aegon who strangles her in the books (if he's real then he is the younger brother of the princess murdered by Lannister forces) and there's no Aegon on the show. Maybe the show will instead have Dany burn her to death on the Iron Throne when she arrives.

[InsertWordHere]

5 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Who would be Thorin Oakenshield? Tormund Giantsbane or Jon Snow? or perhaps Wun Wun the Giant?

I don't know, but Davos would have to be the thief who smuggles out the treasure.

[spottedreptile]

21 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Who would be Thorin Oakenshield? Tormund Giantsbane or Jon Snow? or perhaps Wun Wun the Giant?

There can be ONLY ONE Thorin Oakenshield, thank you very much . . . ;)

[Hecate7]

On 6/16/2016 at 9:00 AM, Chris24601 said:

Or perhaps the moral is that we are NOT the stories told about us and that the stories told later don't matter to those actually living them.

Lord knows that in the books both Jon and Sansa were enamored of the storybook heroes and princesses when the reality of them was likely nothing like what the storybooks portrayed (I've often found a great narrative irony to the two who started out believing in the storybooks only to be completely disillusioned by reality also being the ones most likely to be included in some future storybook that leaves out all the horrors that come with being a hero fighting monsters or a lady held hostage by the enemies of her family).

* * * *

 

At present Joffrey is going down in Westerosi history as a golden-haired angel martyred by his evil opportunistic uncle and whore of a first fiance/aunt by marriage. Sansa appears to be going down in history not as a lady held hostage and victimized by her family's enemies, but rather as a whore and a poisoner who conspired with Tyrion to murder her former fiance on his wedding day. THAT will be her legacy. I love it that onstage and in its own legends, the story people believe is the opposite of the one the audience sees. All those masses sobbing for Joffrey, believing him to be a golden angel boy taken from this world too soon, dying in his seraphic mother's arms! Even Arya, who knows better, fell under the spell of the narrative. Nobody in that world sympathizes with Sansa. She's the whore who married the dwarf, helped kill King Joffrey, then disappeared, probably by witchcraft or turning into a wolf and disappearing into the woods. If she re-emerges as Wardeness of the North, maybe she can commission some new plays and narratives which cast her and her family in a better light, but at present they stand to be remembered (if at all) as a crew of witches, werewolves, and idiots whose evil and ill-considered rebellion was justly cast down.

Jon Snow might or might not be remembered at all, depending on how his battles go. If he wins them all, there might be heroic songs and stories about him, but at present only the Wildlings, Sam, and Dolorous Edd know much about him, and so he may simply go down as a footnote to the failed Stark rebellion.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Hecate7

[Chris24601]

I wouldn't take that particular play as anything that will last... it's basically GOT's version of the "Ember Island Players" and will probably go the same way once the Baratheon-in-name-only dynasty collapses and is replaced by either Dany (with Tyrion as her Hand) or Jon.

History is rife with such propaganda pieces that are forgotten within a fortnight. There's no money to be made in making villains of the current authorities and, depending on the ruler, could lead to an unfortunate audience where body parts are removed for said authority's entertainment.