Season 6: Speculation

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Littlefinger is not one of the "little people".  He's "little" in comparison to Hoster Tully or Eddard Stark, for instance, but he is still a nobleman.  And he didn't rise solely by his own skills, though those skills are considerable.  He got his fostered place at Riverrun because his father was a friend of Lord Hoster, and his crucial customs job was only his because Lysa Tully was in love with him.  Everything else flowed from that.  He is a 1%er, he's just not a 0.1%er.

A nobleman by name only.  A tiny little finger of land with basically a shack, no money, a few sheep, and what?  20 "subjects?" 

Never mind, looked it up, here you go, compare that to the other Noblemen:

Quote

House Baelish of the Fingers is a noble house from the Vale. The seat of House Baelish is an unnamed, old flint tower which commands no more than a few stony acres on the smallest of the Fingers. House Baelish's smallfolk consists of a village of a dozen families in huts of piled stone beside a peat bog.[1][2]

Compare that to the other players in this Game, it's not even in the same ballpark.  I don't see Littlefinger giving orders to entire armies to burn all the fields and rape then murder entire cities.  Winter is coming, and all those fools above him can think of is making their rivals suffer, and if that means wiping out all food, wiping out entire areas, and raping or murdering farmers and milk maids, they don't give a damn. 

I know, it's a terribly unpopular opinion, but it is mine.  Ha.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Umbelina

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

A nobleman by name only.  A tiny little finger of land with basically a shack, no money, a few sheep, and what?  20 "subjects?" 

Compare that to the other players in this Game, it's not even in the same ballpark.  I don't see Littlefinger giving orders to entire armies to burn all the fields and rape then murder entire cities.  Winter is coming, and all those fools above him can think of is making their rivals suffer, and if that means wiping out all food, wiping out entire areas, and raping or murdering farmers and milk maids, they don't give a damn. 

A raised tower house is more than most people have, and he's still got "subjects".

As far as "giving orders to entire armies to burn all the fields and rape then murder entire cities", no, he hasn't given those orders yet; he's manipulated other people into giving them.  Littlefinger is directly responsible for inciting the War of the Five Kings and all the resultant deaths, purely to advance his own station.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

A raised tower house is more than most people have, and he's still got "subjects".

As far as "giving orders to entire armies to burn all the fields and rape then murder entire cities", no, he hasn't given those orders yet; he's manipulated other people into giving them.  Littlefinger is directly responsible for inciting the War of the Five Kings and all the resultant deaths, purely to advance his own station.

He's surviving.  He is by far, the most modern character in the books, he comes from basically nothing, and he's risen to power by any means necessary.  I just think when you compare what Cersei's daddy has done, or the other BIG "houses" on this canvas to Westeros, he is certainly no worse than they are.  He actually has a valid reason to try to better himself and survive in this system.  What do they have as reasons for what they do?  How much wealth does one man need when he's already as wealthy as a Lannister? 

They are, or were, fattened pigs at the trough, he is a tiny little piglet sneaking in to grab a few bites, and then outfoxing them all.

[SeanC]

Just now, Umbelina said:

He's surviving.  He is by far, the most modern character in the books, he comes from basically nothing, and he's risen to power by any means necessary.  I just think when you compare what Cersei's daddy has done, or the other BIG "houses" on this canvas to Westeros, he is certainly no worse than they are.  He actually has a valid reason to try to better himself and survive in this system.  What do they have as reasons for what they do?  How much wealth does one man need when he's already as wealthy as a Lannister? 

They are, or were, fattened pigs at the trough, he is a tiny little piglet sneaking in to grab a few bites, and then outfoxing them all.

He's not worse, perhaps, but he's no better either, and Tywin is a horrible person too.

What "valid reason" does he have?  He was already extremely wealthy and successful before the series started.  If that was all he wanted, he had achieved it.  Instead he has deliberately engineered a civil war that killed untold thousands.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

He's not worse, perhaps, but he's no better either, and Tywin is a horrible person too.

What "valid reason" does he have?  He was already extremely wealthy and successful before the series started.  If that was all he wanted, he had achieved it.  Instead he has deliberately engineered a civil war that killed untold thousands.

He BECAME wealthy by his own achievements, not some daddy or gr gr grand daddy handing it to him.

As for what reason does he have now?  Well, of all of them, other than Jon at the wall, he's the only one who actually seems to get that Winter Is Coming.  He's actually preparing for Winter, while all the other fools are still after power. 

Again, I am by no means saying he's a wonderful person.  Wonderful people are extremely rare in this world.  The thing I find fascinating though, is how very much hate is directed at Littlefinger, which is quite out of proportion with the other villains in the books.  Now on the show alone?  I get it, they are making him nearly a cartoon.

Do I expect him to die?  Yes.  I expect most of them to die.  If I were a seamstress or farmer or cook in an Inn though?  I'd rather be under Littlefinger's protection than any of the other so-called "betters."  At least he has the sense to store food.

[proserpina65]

Quote

As for what reason does he have now?  Well, of all of them, other than Jon at the wall, he's the only one who actually seems to get that Winter Is Coming.  He's actually preparing for Winter, while all the other fools are still after power. 

It's been awhile since I've re-read the books, but I don't remember Littlefinger preparing for the coming Winter.  My impression was simply that he was hungry for power but was just less open about it.

[Umbelina]

He was gathering food, buying it, and The Vale was a fortress.  It was chosen for a reason, and a smart one.  With enough food, that location could fend off most attackers, and possibly survive winter.

My main thing with him though, is he is the guy standing up to the Kings, and beating them.  He's just so American really, or what we used to be, the little guy, working his way up the ladder of success, bucking the powers that be, beating them at their own game.  He's not honorable, or noble, he's doing what THEY are doing though, only he has a much better reason, and much more finesse. 

I don't really like any of them, I always detested Ned Stark for example, his incredible stupidity and "honor" cost his family and his subjects everything.  the other houses are equally odious.  Littlefinger is odious as well, but with him, at least I can see ingenuity and a motivation beyond simply "MORE!"  His fight was about survival, and beating the bastards at their own game. 

Of all of them though, the ones I want to see die the most are those deliberately sadistic for no reason at all, not even the "reason" of starving out the competition ala the Lannisters and Baratheons.  The Boltons. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by Umbelina

[Jazzy24]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He BECAME wealthy by his own achievements, not some daddy or gr gr grand daddy handing it to him.

As for what reason does he have now?  Well, of all of them, other than Jon at the wall, he's the only one who actually seems to get that Winter Is Coming.  He's actually preparing for Winter, while all the other fools are still after power. 

Again, I am by no means saying he's a wonderful person.  Wonderful people are extremely rare in this world.  The thing I find fascinating though, is how very much hate is directed at Littlefinger, which is quite out of proportion with the other villains in the books.  Now on the show alone?  I get it, they are making him nearly a cartoon.

Do I expect him to die?  Yes.  I expect most of them to die.  If I were a seamstress or farmer or cook in an Inn though?  I'd rather be under Littlefinger's protection than any of the other so-called "betters."  At least he has the sense to store food.

There is a theory that Littlefinger is wealthy because he has been stealing money from the crown that's why the crown is in debt. 

Also when has Littlfinger prepared for winter? When he helped start a war for his own petty reasons? The Vale is storing food for winter like they've been dodging for thousands of years this is not Littlefingers doing.

And when have anything turned out well for anybody under Littlfinger's "protection"? Wasn't Jayne Poole at 11yrs old forced to become a sex slave than turned over to a sadistic monster to marry all under Littlfinger's protection? What about Sansa used and abused still all while under Littlfinger's protection. Littlfinger has always been a monster so don't give him credit when he certainly doesn't deserve any. 

After Tywin he's the biggest monster in the series. 

[Umbelina]

Well, the show has significantly departed from Littlefinger's story in the books.  Sansa being handed over to the Boltons is just one area that, as far as the books go, has not or will not happen.  Frankly, Sansa would be dead now if not for Littlefinger.  Joffrey might still be alive as well.

It's been a while since I read the books, but I do specifically remember Littlefinger gathering up food, at any cost, mostly because I identify more with the small people of the books than any of the greedy, violent, uncaring major families/rulers.  We did away with Kings long ago, and feudal systems.  I leave that there because I don't want to get into modern politics about they way that plan is going currently.

For me though, and this is book talk more than show talk, Littlefinger was by far the least of my detested "Lords."  At least I understood him, and I love and admire cleverness, and surviving or thriving by wits alone, rather than inherited money or position.  Robert's ineptitude and greed bankrupted the country as much as Littlefinger profiting through that weakness.  He is, if nothing else, an astute judge of character, including his own.  I find him to be the least hypocritical of the bunch.  (Excluding a few of The Wall folks.)

If Ned had even half of his intelligence, none of this would have happened, but Ned was quite possibly, the stupidest of the bunch.

ETA

I do want to add that I really appreciate the civil discussion of my wildly unpopular opinion.  That is rare.  I'm not trying to convince anyone, but I also expect, from experience, no one to agree with me, so if I seem to be responding too much, it's only to clarify excellent points brought up in argument for my defense of the detested Littlefinger.  Ha.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Umbelina

[Eyes High]

Sophie Turner has been banging her "I want LF on the Iron Throne" drum pretty hard in interviews lately. Given that she answered "Robb" in interviews leading up to the third season when asked who should sit the throne, and that she predicted Joffrey would outlive everyone leading up to the fourth season, could that be some kind of hint as to whether or not LF makes it out of the season alive?

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Frankly, Sansa would be dead now if not for Littlefinger.

If not for Littlefinger, Sansa would be happily living at Winterfell with her father, mother and siblings.

[Jazzy24]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, the show has significantly departed from Littlefinger's story in the books.  Sansa being handed over to the Boltons is just one area that, as far as the books go, has not or will not happen.  Frankly, Sansa would be dead now if not for Littlefinger.  Joffrey might still be alive as well.

It's been a while since I read the books, but I do specifically remember Littlefinger gathering up food, at any cost, mostly because I identify more with the small people of the books than any of the greedy, violent, uncaring major families/rulers.  We did away with Kings long ago, and feudal systems.  I leave that there because I don't want to get into modern politics about they way that plan is going currently.

For me though, and this is book talk more than show talk, Littlefinger was by far the least of my detested "Lords."  At least I understood him, and I love and admire cleverness, and surviving or thriving by wits alone, rather than inherited money or position.  Robert's ineptitude and greed bankrupted the country as much as Littlefinger profiting through that weakness.  He is, if nothing else, an astute judge of character, including his own.  I find him to be the least hypocritical of the bunch.  (Excluding a few of The Wall folks.)

I think you need to read the books again because Littlefinger hasn't been gathering up food for anybody. 

 Littlfinger is out for himself. I also identify a lot with the small folk instead of the great lords but Littlfinger has never been out for anyone other than himself. He's a psychopath, child abuser, war criminal, murderer, pervert, and slimy. Admire his plot armor where his weird plans work but don't make him out to be someone who gives a fuck about someone other than himself. 

Thats great that you understand him but I could never understand how somebody could be so petty, cruel, and evil to start a massive civil war. 

[BlackberryJam]

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If not for Littlefinger, Sansa would be happily living at Winterfell with her father, mother and siblings.

What? If you're saying it's LF who engineered the death of Jon Arryn, okay. Fine. Let's assume Jon Arryn does not die. He does, however, find out about Jaime and Cersei's treachery. Robert is still going to send for his good buddy Ned to come to KL. And he'd put Cersei and Jaime's heads on spikes, along with the kids. Which would have led to war with the Lannisters. Plunging the realm into REALLY BAD SHIT again. Hell, she might have ended up married to a Frey. Or Roose Bolton's legitimized son...anything to stabilize the North.

So no. Sansa would not be living happily at Winterfell with her family if not for LF. You can hate on the dude all you want, but he's not the root of all evil in Westeros.

It's more realistic to say if Rhaegar had just stayed faithful to his wife, Sansa would be living happily with her family at Winterfell.

Edited May 6, 2016 by BlackberryJam

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

I think you need to read the books again because Littlefinger hasn't been gathering up food for anybody. 

 Littlfinger is out for himself. I also identify a lot with the small folk instead of the great lords but Littlfinger has never been out for anyone other than himself. He's a psychopath, child abuser, war criminal, murderer, pervert, and slimy. Admire his plot armor where his weird plans work but don't make him out to be someone who gives a fuck about someone other than himself. 

Thats great that you understand him but I could never understand how somebody could be so petty, cruel, and evil to start a massive civil war. 

Which "great" house on this playing field isn't "out for themselves?"

Even Ned was out for himself, his honor was more important to him than using his head, and look where Winterfell and all it's lands ended up.

Robert just cared about whoring and spending and hunting.  Where did House Baratheon show anything other than being "out for themselves?"

We can go on and on here with the various houses and their actions.  They were already fat pigs, but that wasn't enough, they wanted MORE.  Littlefinger, at the very least, wasn't a fat pig, he was nearly as poor as "the common folk."  So his motivation makes more moral sense to me.  Also, as I said, I admire brains, and if nothing else, he has those.

Also, admittedly, I detest inherited wealth and the power that gives, so there is that...

[Jazzy24]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

What? If you're saying it's LF who engineered the death of Jon Arryn, okay. Fine. Let's assume Jon Arryn does not die. He does, however, find out about Jaime and Cersei's treachery. Robert is still going to send for his good buddy Ned to come to KL. And he'd put Cersei and Jaime's heads on spikes, along with the kids. Which would have led to war with the Lannisters. Plunging the realm into REALLY BAD SHIT again. Hell, she might have ended up married to a Frey. Or Roose Bolton's legitimized son...anything to stabilize the North.

So no. Sansa would not be living happily at Winterfell with her family if not for LF. You can hate on the dude all you want, but he's not the root of all evil in Westeros.

It's more realistic to say if Rhaegar had just stayed faithful to his wife, Sansa would be living happily with her family at Winterfell.

If Robert had killed Cersei, Jaime and their kids and Tywin/Lannisters went to war than the Lannisters would have gotten their asses kicked with all of Westeros fighting them. 

Sansa wouldn't exist if Rhaegar had stayed faithful to his wife because Brandon would have married Caitlyn. 

[Jazzy24]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Which "great" house on this playing field isn't "out for themselves?"

Even Ned was out for himself, his honor was more important to him than using his head, and look where Winterfell and all it's lands ended up.

Robert just cared about whoring and spending and hunting.  Where did House Baratheon show anything other than being "out for themselves?"

We can go on and on here with the various houses and their actions.  They were already fat pigs, but that wasn't enough, they wanted MORE.  Littlefinger, at the very least, wasn't a fat pig, he was nearly as poor as "the common folk."  So his motivation makes more moral sense to me.  Also, as I said, I admire brains, and if nothing else, he has those.

Also, admittedly, I detest inherited wealth and the power that gives, so there is that...

Yeah the great houses are out for themselves that doesn't excuse Littlfinger being out for himself and doing the most damage in the books besides the Lannisters and Baratheons. 

And how was Ned out for himself? He actually wanted to be Hand to help make Westeros better he didn't want the power of the game that came along with it he wanted to help Westeros. Ned actually cared about the lives of Joffery, Myrcella and Tommen the only person to ever express genuine concern for their lives something that can't be said of their mother or father. Yeah he messed up but Ned did try to stop possible bloodshed. 

And what motivation of Littlefinger are you speaking of because I was under the impression that he did this because he didn't get to marry Caitlyn and he's a greedy psychopath. 

[SeanC]

30 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

People may hate the Lannisters, but the Lannisters have money

And that money was doing them absolutely no good as far as allies go, as every single great house sided against them when the War of Five Kings started.  The Tyrells would have sided with Robert, who would have married Margaery in accordance with Renly's scheme and birthed a few new heirs.  The Lannisters would then have to fight the Baratheons, Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Tyrells and possibly the Martells (though they'd probably have just sat things out), and gotten their clocks cleaned. 

Re Littlefinger/Sansa:
We have no idea what AU!Sansa's life would have been like.  Maybe she'd have died of a chill a month later.  But Littlefinger is directly responsible for everything bad that has happened to her in the story, so saying that without him she'd be dead is preposterous as some sort of credit on his ledger, because she was only in danger because of him in the first place.

Edited May 6, 2016 by SilverStormm
Deleted quote from removed post and added 'Re' for context instead.

[BlackberryJam]

Or it's all Ned's fault for being stupid.

[SeanC]

Just now, BlackberryJam said:

Or it's all Ned's fault for being stupid.

No, it's Littlefinger's fault, seeing as he is the one who deceived Ned.

[Jazzy24]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Or it's all Ned's fault for being stupid.

The only thing Ned did stupid was go to KL in the first place. 

Ned was going to lose no matter what he did in KL. He was out manned with everybody against him, Robert was no help and everything was too out of control by the time Ned stepped foot in KL after 14yrs and that wasn't his fault. 

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I don't get why it's important that Sansa kill LF. Who cares who does it? As long as he's dead. I don't care if Ramsay chokes on a  prune as long as he dies. The manner and means don't matter.

 

I'm kind of into the idea of a fake Rickon being given to Ramsay rather than the real Rickon, just because I think Osha knows a psycho when she sees one.

How do you balance out killing one innocent child to save another?

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

Yeah the great houses are out for themselves that doesn't excuse Littlfinger being out for himself and doing the most damage in the books besides the Lannisters and Baratheons. 

And how was Ned out for himself? He actually wanted to be Hand to help make Westeros better he didn't want the power of the game that came along with it he wanted to help Westeros. Ned actually cared about the lives of Joffery, Myrcella and Tommen the only person to ever express genuine concern for their lives something that can't be said of their mother or father. Yeah he messed up but Ned did try to stop possible bloodshed. 

And what motivation of Littlefinger are you speaking of because I was under the impression that he did this because he didn't get to marry Caitlyn and he's a greedy psychopath. 

I didn't say it excused Littlefinger.  I said that I don't understand why he gets all the hate, when they are all assholes.  I also said that Littlefinger started with nothing, while the "Kings" had it all, and still wanted more.

Ned was out for himself because his stupid "honor" was more important to him that actually protecting his people, and his family.  Enjoy your honor Ned, many, many people died and/or suffered so you could have that.  Caring doesn't mean crap if your stupidity and petulant refusal to look at what is actually happening causes everyone who depended on you to be in hell. 

Littlefinger has more than one motivation.  Yes, it may have begun because of his love for Caitlyn, and those in power making that impossible, but that was a good lesson learned.  He couldn't "earn" his way in, because the only thing that matters to those Kings is power and money.  So he outfoxed them all, and got both.  He didn't need to be the face of power either, he was completely fine manipulating those idiots behind the scenes.

God Bless the Child that got his own.

So, basically I'm saying, yes, he is bad, but not worse than any of the Kings and rulers of this land.  The amount of hate he gets is, to me, just so out of proportion to the hate the others get, especially the ones who didn't have to earn any of it, since by birth alone, they had it. 

He was born into an unfair world, where only the very rich, none of whom got that from their own doing, counted.  He beat that system, and frankly, as I said before, it's so modern of him, so American in a way, to beat the Kings at their own game, refuse to bow to them or be intimidated by them, to rise from his own efforts, not what he was handed in the cradle.

I understand hating him.  I don't understand hating him MORE.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Umbelina

[nksarmi]

37 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

What? If you're saying it's LF who engineered the death of Jon Arryn, okay. Fine. Let's assume Jon Arryn does not die. He does, however, find out about Jaime and Cersei's treachery. Robert is still going to send for his good buddy Ned to come to KL. And he'd put Cersei and Jaime's heads on spikes, along with the kids. Which would have led to war with the Lannisters. Plunging the realm into REALLY BAD SHIT again. Hell, she might have ended up married to a Frey. Or Roose Bolton's legitimized son...anything to stabilize the North.

So no. Sansa would not be living happily at Winterfell with her family if not for LF. You can hate on the dude all you want, but he's not the root of all evil in Westeros.

It's more realistic to say if Rhaegar had just stayed faithful to his wife, Sansa would be living happily with her family at Winterfell.

Actually I think you are pretty wrong here. LF might not be the root of all evil in Westerous but he's done more to plunge the realm into chaos than anyone except perhaps Cersei herself.

If Jon Arryn lives - he probably would NOT have revealed Cersei and Jamie's treachery (at least not while Robert B lived) because he is the pragmatic fool who arranged the marriage to begin with. He might reveal the truth once Robert B was dead and name Stannis king - but I'm not sure he would do it before.

If Arryn waits until Robert B is dead (which I don't think would have come as early as it did if Jon was still alive) - I'm not certain there would be a war. Tywin is an ass, but he's also a bit of a coward. He waited to sack KL until he was sure Robert B would be the winner. He would have just as easily supported the Mad King if he thought that's who was going to win the war. Tywin might not risk war with Stannis to put Joeffrey on the thrown - especially if the boy continued on his princely pyshco path.

So with Arryn alive - I'm not sure Robert B ever summons Ned south and yes, Sansa would be chilling in WF trying to figure out if Jon and Ned were joking or serious about this whole "Others are coming" rumor she kept hearing.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Let's keep things civil in here please. I've already removed one post that broke our rules and was flame-y. I'd rather not have to remove more and/or issue warnings.

Thanks.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

It matters because Littlefinger has been set up as the main antagonist/mentor in Sansa's story, and if there's no meaningful payoff to that it would be highly unsatisfying to many people.

As far as Littlefinger's downfall, though, I don't think Sansa is going to actually physically kill him.  It would be far more fitting for her to order his arrest and execution.

The writers have bypassed the book plot on this when they had Balelish  destroy the necklace, unless she secretly removed a stone before hand.

And now that she fled Winterfell without her needle, it may be a different ending.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa physically killing Littlefinger doesn't seem like her style, either in the book or in the show. She's just not a violent person, especially not in the books but even in the show to a certain extent (slapping Robin notwithstanding). I do agree that she'll be directly responsible for his death, although I doubt she'd personally execute him herself.

 

I don't think Littlefinger would die because Sansa suddenly figured out all the ways he'd wronged her family. He would die because he assumed he could control and manipulate Sansa the way he controlled and manipulated everyone, even while teaching Sansa exactly how to control and manipulate him. His arrogance will be his downfall, not some last-minute revelation of all the ways he's fucked over the Starks.

As for Joffrey and Tywin, they didn't die because of the evils that they visited on the Starks, no, but they were paid back in kind for their spectacularly horrible behaviour. Joffrey died as a result of his horrible treatment of Sansa, since that prompted Olenna to get rid of him in favour of his kinder and more tractable younger brother; Joffrey's fate was sealed the moment Sansa told the truth about how terrible he was. Tywin died because he assumed he could continue treating Tyrion like shit--even with a crossbow pointed at him--without consequences. In both instances, their behaviour towards others resulted in their deaths just as, I assume, Littlefinger's behaviour towards Sansa will result in his.

The piece will move in a way he did not expect, hopefully setting him up for possible stealing from the realm and Iron Bank.

Edited May 6, 2016 by GrailKing
spelling

[Jazzy24]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I didn't say it excused Littlefinger.  I said that I don't understand why he gets all the hate, when they are all assholes.  I also said that Littlefinger started with nothing, while the "Kings" had it all, and still wanted more.

Ned was out for himself because his stupid "honor" was more important to him that actually protecting his people, and his family.  Enjoy your honor Ned, many, many people died and/or suffered so you could have that.  Caring doesn't mean crap if your stupidity and petulant refusal to look at what is actually happening causes everyone who depended on you to be in hell. 

Littlefinger has more than one motivation.  Yes, it may have begun because of his love for Caitlyn, and those in power making that impossible, but that was a good lesson learned.  He couldn't "earn" his way in, because the only thing that matters to those Kings is power and money.  So he outfoxed them all, and got both.  He didn't need to be the face of power either, he was completely find manipulating those idiots behind the scenes.

God Bless the Child that got his own.

So, basically I'm saying, yes, he is bad, but not worse than any of the Kings and rulers of this land.  The amount of hate he gets is, to me, just so out of proportion to the hate the others get, especially the ones who didn't have to earn any of it, since by birth alone, they had it.

Of course they're all assholes and want more that's part of the main reason that I dislike the Lannisters, Baratheons, Greyjoys, Freys and Boltons they want more just greedy monsters. But Littlfinger is just like them he has power and money yet want more from revenge to Sansa to the throne and he's left many many innocents behind to get what he wants. 

And I don't know why you're blaming Ned yes he made mistakes but even without Ned a war was coming. And why should Ned let the likes of monsters like the Lannisters sit that throne? 

Littlfingers motivations are ugly. He's a evil asshole who will stab you in the back because you have something he wants. I don't know why you keep bringing up how Littlfinger started from the bottom which he really didn't. Littlefinger already had a title, lands, connections having been fostered with the Tullys a great house for many years. He had power not much but he had power he wasn't a peasant that got stepped on during war he was still nobility wanting more. 

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

The writers have bypassed the book plot on this when they had Balelish  destroy the necklace, unless she secretly removed a stone before hand.

And now that she fled Winterfell without her needle, it may be a different ending.

Huh?  I said I don't imagine Sansa will physically kill him in either book or show.  And the theory that she still has the necklace in the books and will use it in the future is just that, a theory; there's no actual indicators of it, just that it's never mentioned what happened to it.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I never hated Littlefinger.  Yes, the show made him a mustache twirling cartoon villain, but for some reason, he always seemed the smartest to me, and frankly, the most likely to survive.

He's Rhett Butler, but doesn't have the rich family background.  Rhett even partly owned a whorehouse, and there are more comparisons, aside from the money/family issues.

Anyway, the main reason I liked Littlefinger is because he is the American Dream in reality, and in a feudal world, he is the character who managed, by wits alone to elevate his station in life.  The others were all born into it, or religious fanatics or shysters.  He came from a very poor, bleak childhood, and by sheer determination and wits, rose to power, one step at a time. 

In the books, the "little people" break my heart the most, they are the beauty in GRRM's writing, even though we get almost none of that from the show.  They are the casual fodder for rich, born to power, undeserving characters to rape, kill, starve, burn, all in their quests for power, the throne, more money.  Littlefinger would have been one of those unimportant people, but he flipped the switch.  He rose to a level where he couldn't just be a pawn in their games.  He's the one storing food, and finding a fortress that is more secure.  He's the one planning, while all the rest fight, destroy field for the hell of it (burning that limited food that all, especially the peasants, will need to survive winter.) 

He is the least odious to me because he was born without options, without security, without anything in his favor other than his wits.  He made those 1%'ers his pawns, he outsmarted them.  Yes, he's ruthless, but hello!  So are they!  Is he more ruthless?  Not to me.  He's simply more intelligent and more determined.

/ducks

The American dream is to work hard, get rewarded and succeed, no where in that dream are people wantingly leaving dead bodies by the wayside.

He has brains, but he chose the wrong road to use his skills, because the fish he wanted was denied him, he could have found another.

[Umbelina]

If you compare where Littlefinger started to the  wealth and power to the other detestable "Noblemen" though, it's acres of apple groves and a lettuce seed.

Littlefinger's got a few stony acres, picture a rocky few acres in Mexico, with a few families still living in huts.  The Lannisters meanwhile, own the entire East Coast, and the Tyrell's all of California and more. 

I know he was technically of very recently bestowed nobility, but saying he was the equal of the other Kings and rules is just a head shaker to me.  I do see him as more of one of the "small folk" as I'm pretty sure, some of those, had more money that he did when he started.

They are ALL leaving dead bodies everywhere, not just Littlefinger, and frankly, some of the body's he's killed I very much applaud, hello Joffrey!

[Jazzy24]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

The American dream is to work hard, get rewarded and succeed, no where in that dream are people wantingly leaving dead bodies by the wayside.

He has brains, but he chose the wrong road to use his skills, because the fish he wanted was denied him, he could have found another.

Word. 

And Littlfinger is not one of the small folk who doesn't have options. 

Littlfinger is nobility always has been not the same level at the Starks, Arryns, Tuplys, and other great houses. But he's nobility and well connected because of his status like managing to be fostered by a great Lord and working for a great lord. 

This dude did not rise from the very bottom of Westeros' class system he is nobility. 

[GrailKing]

33 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Huh?  I said I don't imagine Sansa will physically kill him in either book or show.  And the theory that she still has the necklace in the books and will use it in the future is just that, a theory; there's no actual indicators of it, just that it's never mentioned what happened to it.

It's a hung gun, whether it gets used or not is a question, and they did say what happened to it, she put it in her cloak pocket, she was to drop it inside the tree. that cloak is in her trunk at the Eyrie.

Poison is a womans' weapon. also in book it's a hairnet.

Edited May 6, 2016 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

Whether or not Sansa is indirectly or directly responsible for Littlefinger's demise (and I'll feel cheated at this point if she isn't), I do think that there's no way that Littlefinger survives Sansa. I also think Sansa will be "safe" at least until Littlefinger dies, since he is the antagonist whose fate has been tied to hers since the beginning. Moreover, if you buy that Littlefinger is the prophesied giant Sansa will slay, then it stands to reason that she will outlive him. With that said, the minute Littlefinger is out of the picture, and I believe he will be out of the picture before the war against the WW really gets going, Sansa's survival prospects become a lot more tenuous.

In Season 6, fathers so far are dropping like flies: Roose, Doran, and Balon all died within the space of two episodes. Could Littlefinger, another "father" figure (if not an actual father like the other three) and a member of the older generation, also wind up on the chopping block?

Edited May 6, 2016 by Eyes High

[Jazzy24]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If you compare where Littlefinger started to the  wealth and power to the other detestable "Noblemen" though, it's acres of apple groves and a lettuce seed.

Littlefinger's got a few stony acres, picture a rocky few acres in Mexico, with a few families still living in huts.  The Lannisters meanwhile, own the entire East Coast, and the Tyrell's all of California and more. 

I know he was technically of very recently bestowed nobility, but saying he was the equal of the other Kings and rules is just a head shaker to me.  I do see him as more of one of the "small folk" as I'm pretty sure, some of those, had more money that he did when he started.

They are ALL leaving dead bodies everywhere, not just Littlefinger, and frankly, some of the body's he's killed I very much applaud, hello Joffrey!

I never said that Littlfinger is equal to the King and great lord status cause he's not.

The fact is that he's still nobility he has a place in Westeros' society where he could sit an.mong other nobles and build connections for his family. He's not a bastard who has to depend on his family to survive or he's no small folk who have to depend on their lords for protect and food. There are actually people who suffer because of their lack of status, wealth and power and Littlfinger sure ain't one of them.   

The reason I hate him so much is Littlfinger could have achieved power, status and wealth without all the murder, child sex trafficking, plotting etc.he's smart and capable yet that's the route he took for petty revenge, greed and evilness. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by Jazzy24

[GrailKing]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If you compare where Littlefinger started to the  wealth and power to the other detestable "Noblemen" though, it's acres of apple groves and a lettuce seed.

Littlefinger's got a few stony acres, picture a rocky few acres in Mexico, with a few families still living in huts.  The Lannisters meanwhile, own the entire East Coast, and the Tyrell's all of California and more. 

I know he was technically of very recently bestowed nobility, but saying he was the equal of the other Kings and rules is just a head shaker to me.  I do see him as more of one of the "small folk" as I'm pretty sure, some of those, had more money that he did when he started.

They are ALL leaving dead bodies everywhere, not just Littlefinger, and frankly, some of the body's he's killed I very much applaud, hello Joffrey!

The dead body count as far as the 5 kings are concerned is directly tied to him and his chaos is a ladder mentality, the Starks going to KL is also tied to him and Lysa with a deceitful letter that forced Ned's hand, Ned wasn't stupid but naive thinking people over time don't change.

[Hecate7]

11 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

And when have anything turned out well for anybody under Littlfinger's "protection"? Wasn't Jayne Poole at 11yrs old forced to become a sex slave than turned over to a sadistic monster to marry all under Littlfinger's protection? What about Sansa used and abused still all while under Littlfinger's protection. Littlfinger has always been a monster so don't give him credit when he certainly doesn't deserve any. 

After Tywin he's the biggest monster in the series. 

This. When people say Littlefinger got rich through his own efforts and labor, that's not at all true. He got rich selling people to other people, including apparently selling a "beautiful sad girl" to a cannibal. He's also been stealing from the crown. Add to that the deaths of Ned Stark and Lyssa Arryn, which can be laid directly at his feet, and he's a pretty monstrous character. I'd still rather have him around than Joffrey, Ramsey, or any of the Thenns.

[Umbelina]

The Frey's murdered guests at their table.  The Boltons flay people.  The Lannisters have ordered entire villages burned to the ground, kids and all, not to mention all of the Noble Joffrey and Cersei crimes.  Stannis killed his own brother, and Robert bankrupted the Kingdom and ordered babies murdered.  Dani has flailed around trying to learn how to rule, and even with good intentions, been directly responsible for many deaths, some quite gruesome, and we could go on for days about the crimes of her ancestors, House Targaryen.  I could go on here, but my point is, Littlefinger gets an undue amount of hate compared to these others.  It just feels a little much too like "He's just not our kind dear." with some kind of reverence for these disgusting "Nobles" with better pedigrees. 

Yes, Littlefinger is "bad" too, but worse?  Just not to me.

I hope it is a fake Rickon.  I've had a soft spot for that scrappy kid and his cranky wolf for a long time, I thought he might be the surprise Stark who really makes it.

Also, it does kind of bug me that we haven't seen much of Howland Reed or the crannogmen, for some reason (and not just the true story of Lyanna) I've always thought they would have an important role to play, but since the show has pretty much ignored them except for two kids, I guess not.

[Hecate7]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The Frey's murdered guests at their table.  The Boltons flay people.  The Lannisters have ordered entire villages burned to the ground, kids and all, not to mention all of the Noble Joffrey and Cersei crimes.  Stannis killed his own brother, and Robert bankrupted the Kingdom and ordered babies murdered.  Dani has flailed around trying to learn how to rule, and even with good intentions, been directly responsible for many deaths, some quite gruesome, and we could go on for days about the crimes of her ancestors, House Targaryen.  I could go on here, but my point is, Littlefinger gets an undue amount of hate compared to these others.  It just feels a little much too like "He's just not our kind dear." with some kind of reverence for these disgusting "Nobles" with better pedigrees. 

Yes, Littlefinger is "bad" too, but worse?  Just not to me.

I hope it is a fake Rickon.  I've had a soft spot for that scrappy kid and his cranky wolf for a long time, I thought he might be the surprise Stark who really makes it.

Also, it does kind of bug me that we haven't seen much of Howland Reed or the crannogmen, for some reason (and not just the true story of Lyanna) I've always thought they would have an important role to play, but since the show has pretty much ignored them except for two kids, I guess not.

What you're forgetting, though, is that Littlefinger has been an eager accomplice, and often the originator, of the crimes of the Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters. He's innocent of anything Danaerys ever did, I'm pretty sure, but I'm also sure that he was behind the execution (rather than pardon) of Ned. He certainly tricked Ned into position. He also tricked Renly into position. He is the one who got Lyssa Arryn to murder her husband.

And in many ways he's worse than Varys, who takes orphans and makes them his spies, possibly cutting out their tongues or somehow maiming their voiceboxes first. Littlefinger takes orphans and makes them into commodities to sell, and we've seen what that does to them.

As one of the smallfolk myself, I'd rather serve Ned Stark, Tyrion, or Jon Snow than Littlefinger. I'd rather serve Littlefinger than a Bolton, Frey, or most Lannisters, although at least the Lannisters apparently always pay. But I wouldn't trust him to care about the fate of the commoners, any more than the other lords. Lord Baelish was always a lord. He was never some commoner striking a blow for populists.

[Oscirus]

I don't really hate Littlefinger. Yes he's done bad things but he has heart. This dude's insane enough to challenge a warrior to a duel.  He's basically going to force himself to the iron throne. Even if it's for one day I hope he succeeds.

I think Sansa has to be Littlefinger's undoing. Either Sansa or her mother has been  the blindspot in most of his schemes.  It makes sense that he'll be this close to getting everything he wants but then his lust for Sansa will wind up ruining it.  As for why Sansa will kill Littlefinger. It doesn't make sense to foreshadow something like that and not follow through. 

OT but

Quote

 

The only thing Ned did stupid was go to KL in the first place. 

 

 

I would say warning Cersei about what he knew, causing her to kill the king and allowing her to make moves against him was pretty damn stupid.  I ultimately think that Ned would've came to the king's court eventually since Robert was obsessedd with being Ned's family so he had no choice in that matter.

[GrailKing]

Back to speculating about Jon warging and in the interview we are told to watch and we will find out, well I'm thinking this actually is the answer.

In the scene Ghost is sleeping really soundly,to me a wild animal would be on total alert when surrounded by danger but; Ghost isn't, he's eerily sleeping like a corpse.

From leaks we get a question to Jon

what did you see?

Jon's answer is

NOTHING

; go over the scene during that time Jon's answer is correct

Ghost is asleep, his eyes are closed,until a time pass that created a completion of the transfer then and only then does Ghost sense Jon's back in his body and wakes up.

[FemmyV]

I don't hate Littlefinger; as a character he has done more to move the story, and in ways that don't leave us rolling our eyes at obvious plot devices, than just about anyone. As villains go, he's done an excellent job of getting his way and (mostly) managed to keep his own hands clean, which has made him an awesome master manipulator and one we don't see enough of, to get too tired of.

What he has enabled others to do, otoh, is pretty heinous. Littlefinger needs to die for Joffrey's butchering of Ros, alone. Sure, it wasn't wise of her to double cross him, but ow. Same for the other girls he sent to Joff.

I expect to see him reach for more and more power, until there are just a few pieces left on the board, and see Sansa come in at the end with a knock-out punch. She may very well marry him in order to get close enough.

 

Or, she may even marry Frey (or his heir) before he gets offed. That would be pretty intriguing, to have Sansa in a position to control movement between North/South.

 

As for which family I'd want to serve? Tyrell's. Kind of impotent at the moment, but overall I get the feeling Olenna takes care of her people.

[GrailKing]

The more I read the more I want to see Sansa as the Stark version of TQOT.

What name should she get?

Blue Rose,Ice Queen of the North, the Thorny Queen????

[ElizaD]

I've seen speculation that Rickon will get Mance-like treatment and be made to wear Osha's skin after Ramsay is done torturing her.

Could Qyburn (commanded by Cersei) and not Varys be behind the massacre committed by the little birds? That would help keep Show Varys as basically a good guy on Dany's side, but then he'd need some other reason for his reported departure from Meereen.

The Tommen/High Sparrow scene seemed like nice setup for Tommen/Margaery as the pious monarchs.

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I've seen speculation that Rickon will get Mance-like treatment and be made to wear Osha's skin after Ramsay is done torturing her.

Could Qyburn (commanded by Cersei) and not Varys be behind the massacre committed by the little birds? That would help keep Show Varys as basically a good guy on Dany's side, but then he'd need some other reason for his reported departure from Meereen.

The Tommen/High Sparrow scene seemed like nice setup for Tommen/Margaery as the pious monarchs.

Assuming Aegon is king in the books for a time with Arianne as his queen, maybe Tommen/Margaery will serve as an amalgam of their book equivalents and of Aegon and Arianne. Although GRRM has said that TV Margaery is what Book Margaery will be like in 10 years (or however he phrased it), TV Margaery seems to have more in common with Book Arianne than Book Margaery: very sexual, openly ambitious, willing to seduce naifs in service of her ambitions, etc.

Varys:

Spoiler

There is speculation that Varys will have scenes with Olenna in Dorne, since the two actors were spotted at the place where the Dorne scenes were filmed. At any rate, he leaves Meereen before the end of the season and is absent from Tyrion, Dany, Grey Worm and Missandei's big pow wow at Mesa Roldan in a Miguel Sapochnik episode (6x09 or 6x10).

[Oscirus]

So it looks like we're going to have a battle for Tommen's soul coming up with sparrow on one shoulder and Cersei on the other.

So either Varys returns and kills Kevan and Pycelle to frame Cersei or Cersei has those two killed to regain power on the council. I wouldn't be shocked if Qyburn and one or both of the tyrells wind up added to the mix in the tv version.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Oscirus

[Alapaki]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

So it looks like we're going to have a battle for Tommen's soul coming up with sparrow on one shoulder and Cersei on the other.

So either Varys returns and kills Kevan and Pycelle to frame Cersei or Cersei has those two killed to regain power on the council. I wouldn't be shocked if Qyburn and one or both of the tyrells wind up added to the mix in the tv version.

If the actor and what he's done with the character weren't so damned compelling and popular, I wouldn't be surprised to see Varys added to that list.  Given where the pieces are in place at this point, I don't think the narrative requires the intervention of a Varys character any longer.

Even his role is "discovering" who's been financially backing the Sons of the Harpy seemed to be me be a big serving of nothingburger.  The slave cities whose slave trade has been impacted by Dany preaching and forceably imposing emancipation are behind the plots to depose Dany?  You're shitting me!  I'm going to pass out from the shock of that revelation.

[Spartan Girl]

Man, we are SO CLOSE to Lyanna Stark being revealed as Jon's mother, I can almost taste it...

I'm thinking the season finale, tops.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[Umbelina]

I speculate that they will keep Cersei alive longer than she lives in the books, just for the actress to be kept on screen. 

[Alapaki]

11 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Man, we are SO CLOSE to Lyanna Stark being revealed as Jon's mother, I can almost taste it...

I'm thinking the season finale, tops.

Seven episodes is a long time to leave that TOJ flashback hanging.  I'm hoping they don't drag it out that long, if for no other reason than their failure to close that loop will overshadow some of the things they do show in between.

Personally, given all the Hound bread-crumbs they're dropping, and Jamie's specific "trial by combat" name-drop, I'm guessing that the Faith's sending the Hound to fight the Mountain over Cersei's fate will be the finale, with the outcome of the battle possibly left as a cliff-hanger to be resolved in S7.

[Avaleigh]

45 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

So it looks like we're going to have a battle for Tommen's soul coming up with sparrow on one shoulder and Cersei on the other.

So either Varys returns and kills Kevan and Pycelle to frame Cersei or Cersei has those two killed to regain power on the council. I wouldn't be shocked if Qyburn and one or both of the tyrells wind up added to the mix in the tv version.

Yeah, I'm thinking that Olenna is toast by the finale. I think she's going to be in the room when the birds take out Pycelle and Kevan. Since the idea is to get rid of the competent people in King's Landing, I feel like she's bound to be apart of this. I just can't decide if they'll kill Mace too.