Season 6: Speculation

[Macbeth]

Cersei's Trial by Combat is coming up.  We know she has the Mountain in her corner - who will HS choose?  It has to be someone we know or what's the point.  Who do we know that are members of that faith - Tommen and  Lancel.  Even if Tommen chose to fight - Cersei would just have the Mountain kill the High Sparrow. 

So it should be Kevan's son Lancel.  Lancel whose confession had her do the walk of shame.  Lancel who assisted Cersei in killing King Robert.  She will have no problem seeing him die at the hands of the Mountain

Thus major shit should be going down between Cersei and Kevan.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, nksarmi said:

It's not totally lost on me that GRRM calls Tyrion a villain but the show is clearly NOT painting him in that space. I think for Martin, some villains will "win" and/or "survive" but they will be villains that serve a purpose - like Tyrion. I think Dany dies but I'm not sure if she will die as a hero or a villain.

The 1993 outline guaranteed that Tyrion and Dany (as well as Jon, Arya and Bran) would live through the books, and he indicated recently that he intends to stick to the broad strokes of the ending he planned in 1991. He's also said pretty consistently that he's going to stick to the ending he's had planned even if fans successfully guess it. I doubt Tyrion or Dany will die, for all GRRM's jawing about Tyrion's villainy and the ominous foreshadowing that seems to be piling up around them. Dany may very well make way for Jon's glorious endgame reign, but I doubt she's going to have to die to do so. GRRM's "Anyone can die" is and has always been bullshit; it's "Anyone can die...except these guys," and he says as much in the outline.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The 1993 outline guaranteed that Tyrion and Dany (as well as Jon, Arya and Bran) would live through the books, and he indicated recently that he intends to stick to the broad strokes of the ending he planned in 1991. He's also said pretty consistently that he's going to stick to the ending he's had planned even if fans successfully guess it. I doubt Tyrion or Dany will die, for all GRRM's jawing about Tyrion's villainy and the ominous foreshadowing that seems to be piling up around them. Dany may very well make way for Jon's glorious endgame reign, but I doubt she's going to have to die to do so.

I never read that outline as indicating they would all survive the series, rather that they'd all live to the climax.  Regardless, I think Arya and Bran are safe, but I think at least one of Dany, Jon and Tyrion (the probable three dragonriders) won't make it.

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I never read that outline as indicating they would all survive the series, rather that they'd all live to the climax. 

I think the quote from the outline supports my interpretation:

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The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process...

I don't know any other way to interpret "five central characters will make it through all three volumes," especially when this statement comes on the heels of a statement that "The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time" and "I want the reader that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes." GRRM appears to be saying that he wants to create the illusion of danger for all the characters while assuring the reader of the letter that these five central characters will not get killed off.

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Regardless, I think Arya and Bran are safe, but I think at least one of Dany, Jon and Tyrion (the probable three dragonriders) won't make it.

I think Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran are safe. Sansa, on the other hand...

Edited June 1, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

Anyone read

Damphair Chapter?

freefolk, and look for it

Euron is a

mudder fooker

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran are safe. Sansa, on the other hand...

Eh, I tend to think she's going to live -- part of the reason being, actually, one of the reasons a number of people view her as doomed, namely, the lack of magic/combat skills.  The absence of those makes it a lot harder for me to see how dying during the apocalypse would function as a particularly satisfying arc resolution, since she can't go down fighting or whatever.  She seems more likely to be a homefront/civilian POV.

[GrailKing]

36 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Eh, I tend to think she's going to live -- part of the reason being, actually, one of the reasons a number of people view her as doomed, namely, the lack of magic/combat skills.  The absence of those makes it a lot harder for me to see how dying during the apocalypse would function as a particularly satisfying arc resolution, since she can't go down fighting or whatever.  She seems more likely to be a homefront/civilian POV.

New world order will need a Mother.

if what we've seen so far is actually in the book

Rickon is possibly the last Stark death.

[Oscirus]

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If Jon is THE central character of the books and THE hero of the realm, than it makes it a lot less likely to me that Dany will rule at the end of it all.

Not necessarily, Jon is the protagonist and this is his story, but just because this is his story doesn't mean that he will have to sit the throne. It just means that at the climax that he has to be the one responsible for vanquishing the final threat.
 

Quote

 

I think she's clearly going to be a villain, but I think the key point that a lot of theories I've read miss is that it doesn't mean the Others are suddenly the good guys.

There's a natural tendency to try and squeeze things into an easy binary of good vs. evil (i.e. if the Others are evil then Dany must be good -or- if Dany is evil then the Others must be good) so there can be an easy two-sided final conflict. I think that is exactly the expectation that GRRM is trying to subvert with the story. The final battle is not good vs. evil... it's evil vs. evil with a completely outmatched good struggling in the middle to pull out a win.

 

I've always thought that they would both be evil but that Dany would ultimately wind up being the 'final boss.' Once the Walker threat is resolved the dragons heads would turn on each other and people would be forced to pick sides.

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It's not totally lost on me that GRRM calls Tyrion a villain but the show is clearly NOT painting him in that space.

I'm pretty sure  that quote came from 17 years ago when the second book came out and Tyrion was clearly working with his family aka that book's villains. I'd like to hear his thoughts on the matter now.

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So it should be Kevan's son Lancel.  Lancel whose confession had her do the walk of shame.  Lancel who assisted Cersei in killing King Robert.  She will have no problem seeing him die at the hands of the Mountain

From the preseason trailer, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that Lancel's not going to make it to the trial. But I suspect he will be killed in a fight with mountain.

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I think Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran are safe. Sansa, on the other hand...

I'd argue that the house of the undying foreshadowed at least one of the dragonrider's death. I think the only character that 100 percent makes it to the end is Jon. Everybody else's likelihood of survival comes down to circumstances.

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The fact that Winterfell is likely to be the Ark (or at least the primary bastion of civilization) in this story is one of the reasons why I think Jon/Sansa as Ned/Cat 2.0 makes a lot of narrative sense (specifically the classical circular narrative structure that returns the characters either physically or metaphorically to where the story began in order to contrast how the protagonists have been changed by the events... the Hobbits return to the Shire, Odysseus returns to his wife and kingdom, etc.).

That is a very interesting well thought out ending.  However I don't think it would fit here. The show is called game of thrones meaning that whoever plays the best wins. And while I agree that by surviving one wins the game, I think there has to be some outcome that aligns with all this political maneuvering. I also think that the point of this story is the unification of the broken kingdom through it's final leader, meaning that ultimately the ending will be the rebuilding of King's landing.

[Chris24601]

Its called "Game of Thrones" because that's a better name than "A Song of Ice and Fire" for a television show (short and pithy wins the day for TV show titles).

Frankly, I find the title of the show to be one of supreme irony. All these complete jackholes do horrible things that destroy innocent people's lives just to sit on an ugly chair while completely ignoring that to the North and to the East armies of Ice and Fire gather to utterly destroy them.

The great ironic twist though is that the true king is revealed to be the leader who didn't play the ridiculous "game" and wasn't even interested in being a king. He just wanted to rally the people to fight against the invasion of the dead that would kill them all. But in the process he leads the survivors through the cataclysm and out the other side into a new world and because they make him their king he establishes his own throne... or more accurately, restores an even older one.

The Iron Throne isn't the only throne in the story (if there were only one it'd be Game of Throne :D ). That's just the throne of the Targaryan conquerors and is only a few hundred years old. There's also the Salt Throne of the Ironborn for example.

But there is also a much OLDER throne in the story though... Millennia before the Targaryens conquered Westeros, there were other kings... the descendants of the one who led all mankind through The Long Night... The Kings of Winter upon the Throne of Winterfell. If Dany is a villain in the story and the heroes are the Starks reunited and restored then why not their ancestral throne as well... the throne not earned by conquest, but by leadership and sacrifice?

[CofCinci]

24 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Its called "Game of Thrones" because that's a better name than "A Song of Ice and Fire" for a television show (short and pithy wins the day for TV show titles).

Frankly, I find the title of the show to be one of supreme irony. All these complete jackholes do horrible things that destroy innocent people's lives just to sit on an ugly chair while completely ignoring that to the North and to the East armies of Ice and Fire gather to utterly destroy them.

The great ironic twist though is that the true king is revealed to be the leader who didn't play the ridiculous "game" and wasn't even interested in being a king. He just wanted to rally the people to fight against the invasion of the dead that would kill them all. But in the process he leads the survivors through the cataclysm and out the other side into a new world and because they make him their king he establishes his own throne... or more accurately, restores an even older one.

The Iron Throne isn't the only throne in the story (if there were only one it'd be Game of Throne :D ). That's just the throne of the Targaryan conquerors and is only a few hundred years old. There's also the Salt Throne of the Ironborn for example.

But there is also a much OLDER throne in the story though... Millennia before the Targaryens conquered Westeros, there were other kings... the descendants of the one who led all mankind through The Long Night... The Kings of Winter upon the Throne of Winterfell. If Dany is a villain in the story and the heroes are the Starks reunited and restored then why not their ancestral throne as well... the throne not earned by conquest, but by leadership and sacrifice?

Great post.  Add in that they're all fighting over a throne that will be physically dismanted/melted down in order to fight a greater threat.

[Maximum Taco]

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

Eh, I tend to think she's going to live -- part of the reason being, actually, one of the reasons a number of people view her as doomed, namely, the lack of magic/combat skills.  The absence of those makes it a lot harder for me to see how dying during the apocalypse would function as a particularly satisfying arc resolution, since she can't go down fighting or whatever.  She seems more likely to be a homefront/civilian POV.

I agree, I'm pretty sure Sansa is going to survive the series.

It seems that her storyline has been smushed into Arya's intended storyline. How much so will be revealed in the future, but Sansa is not on the path originally intended for her, that much is very clear.

[nksarmi]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The 1993 outline guaranteed that Tyrion and Dany (as well as Jon, Arya and Bran) would live through the books, and he indicated recently that he intends to stick to the broad strokes of the ending he planned in 1991. He's also said pretty consistently that he's going to stick to the ending he's had planned even if fans successfully guess it. I doubt Tyrion or Dany will die, for all GRRM's jawing about Tyrion's villainy and the ominous foreshadowing that seems to be piling up around them. Dany may very well make way for Jon's glorious endgame reign, but I doubt she's going to have to die to do so. GRRM's "Anyone can die" is and has always been bullshit; it's "Anyone can die...except these guys," and he says as much in the outline.

Maybe it's just that I can't figure out what role Dany could play in the end. I mean even in his original outline - he had Jon with Arya (which I definitely DON'T think will happen now). So if Jon and Dany aren't together - which one of them is ruling? Or are they ruling separate kingdoms? I can almost see Dany of the books growing up enough to rule, but in the show they seem to be beating those conqueror not queen notes pretty loudly to me.

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I agree, I'm pretty sure Sansa is going to survive the series.

It seems that her storyline has been smushed into Arya's intended storyline. How much so will be revealed in the future, but Sansa is not on the path originally intended for her, that much is very clear.

Her storyline doesn't particularly remind me of ur-Arya's, other than the "relationship" with Tyrion, but ur-Sansa was supposed to befriend him too, apparently (though that didn't really happen in the books; they weren't friends).  While it's impossible to say without all the details, it really doesn't look like the outline version had Littlefinger, or at least not the Littlefinger we eventually got, since ur-Tyrion was responsible for Joffrey's assassination and ur-Jaime comes across like an agglomeration of all the schemer characters.  I think that whole narrative was greatly reshaped as Sansa's role expanded, creating a villain/mentor for her who is so intimately connected to both of her parents.  Also, particularly if you're a SanSan person, there's no mention of the Cleganes; if SanSan is a thing, GRRM presumably decided to fill out her narrative with his favourite fairy tale.

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm pretty sure  that quote came from 17 years ago when the second book came out and Tyrion was clearly working with his family aka that book's villains. I'd like to hear his thoughts on the matter now.

GRRM has said he's always known Tyrion's endgame...although I'm pretty certain that whatever villainy he gets up to in the books, it's irrelevant to his endgame. GRRM has also called Theon, Sandor and Jaime villains at various points, and expressed bemusement that these characters have female fans. He might use the word more liberally or more generously than others, especially in a series full of psychopaths like Euron and Joffrey running around.

In a broad sense, Outline Tyrion's storyline seemed to be about turning his back on the Lannisters and throwing his lot in with the Starks to take down the Lannisters, to the point that he falls in love with Arya and has a "deadly" rivalry with Jon (which can't be all that deadly, since both of them evidently survive it). At the rate the show is going, though, there won't be anything of the Lannister empire left to dismantle.

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

It seems that her storyline has been smushed into Arya's intended storyline. How much so will be revealed in the future, but Sansa is not on the path originally intended for her, that much is very clear.

I don't think so. It would be one thing if Outline Arya had been split into ASOIAF Sansa and Arya, but Sansa existed as of the outline; she just had a much smaller role and may have been killed off a lot earlier. If she was killed off in the outline but survived at the equivalent point in the books, that doesn't necessarily mean that she'll survive the series. It may only mean that she received a temporary stay of execution.

There has been speculation about GRRM's mysterious recent comments about a female character who was always doomed but he hadn't figured out how to kill her off until very recently. Sansa is one of those characters who seems to have a lot of death symbolism about them (in AGOT, anyway, not so much in other books), and she isn't "saved" by being one of the five central characters GRRM guaranteed survival in 1993. Maybe it's her.

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

Maybe it's just that I can't figure out what role Dany could play in the end. I mean even in his original outline - he had Jon with Arya (which I definitely DON'T think will happen now). So if Jon and Dany aren't together - which one of them is ruling? Or are they ruling separate kingdoms? I can almost see Dany of the books growing up enough to rule, but in the show they seem to be beating those conqueror not queen notes pretty loudly to me.

Just as with character pairings, I think it's too early to write off still-living characters as having this or that fate based on where things seem to be going in show, especially with the TV characterization being a bit of a moving target, to put it mildly.

I don't know what GRRM had planned in the original outline for Dany's endgame, other than survival. I do believe that if he conceived of her survival in 1993, that's exactly where he's headed in 2025 or whenever ADOS is published. Just because it's difficult to imagine where Dany could end up doesn't mean that she's doomed.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Her storyline doesn't particularly remind me of ur-Arya's, other than the "relationship" with Tyrion, but ur-Sansa was supposed to befriend him too, apparently (though that didn't really happen in the books; they weren't friends).  While it's impossible to say without all the details, it really doesn't look like the outline version had Littlefinger, or at least not the Littlefinger we eventually got, since ur-Tyrion was responsible for Joffrey's assassination and ur-Jaime comes across like an agglomeration of all the schemer characters.  I think that whole narrative was greatly reshaped as Sansa's role expanded, creating a villain/mentor for her who is so intimately connected to both of her parents.  Also, particularly if you're a SanSan person, there's no mention of the Cleganes; if SanSan is a thing, GRRM presumably decided to fill out her narrative with his favourite fairy tale.

There are very few secondary characters mentioned in the outline, so just because they weren't mentioned doesn't mean they didn't exist in the original storyline. Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne, and we have no idea who those people are beyond Sansa's kid, but they must exist, even though they're not named. Ned is brought down by "his enemies" in the outline, who also remain unnamed, and they could very well include Littlefinger. Ditto for Sandor. I have a feeling Littlefinger and Sandor in particular were included pretty early on, if only because they seem so similar to characters in GRRM's previous works.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

There has been speculation about GRRM's mysterious recent comments about a female character who was always doomed but he hadn't figured out how to kill her off until very recently.

He actually just said "a character".  That point got confused in translation because in German, which has grammatical gender, a female pronoun is used, but the actual expression is gender-neutral.

[nksarmi]

3 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

I agree, I'm pretty sure Sansa is going to survive the series.

It seems that her storyline has been smushed into Arya's intended storyline. How much so will be revealed in the future, but Sansa is not on the path originally intended for her, that much is very clear.

Ayra clearly isn't on the path that was originally outlined for her - I'm almost positive he didn't intend any of this Faceless Man stuff. I know he's said he will stick close to his original ideas, but I don't think that translates into "this story will end 100% like I originally intended it to 20+ years ago." I mean, his original outline was for a trilogy for goodness sake! I think we are talking about broad strokes only and I would not be surprised at all if he decides one of those original five will die.

Of those five I think the order of their "safeness" goes as follows:

1. Jon. It does seem to be his story and I would not be surprised if he is ruling at the end. I just don't think it will be the Iron Throne.

2. Tyrion. While I don't think he will be king - I think he could be an advisor or rule Casterly Rock. Basically, I think he will be everything Tywin wanted in a son but couldn't ever accept that Tyrion was his true heir. Plus I think GRRM just likes so much that he won't be able to resist giving him a happy ending.

3. Bran. I suspect since he started the series, he will end it. He will be the wise one to guide Jon.

4. Arya. I don't know what role she will play in the end, but I think Martin likes her enough to keep her alive.

5. Dany. I don't see her surviving to be honest and if she does, I have no idea what her role would be. I think her happy ending is the after life with her husband and son.

Edited June 1, 2016 by nksarmi

[Umbelina]

Do we know if that was the very last of the children of the forest?  I've thought for a while that there will only be a few survivors of it all, and in my head the children ended up being key to life continuing, but I guess that's not to be.

As for Jon?  Harry Potter didn't end up leading, so I doubt he will either.  More and more I'm reducing Jon's story to Harry's. 

Dany's my unknown.  My guess is she dies, but as a villain or hero?  It could go either way.  The throne will probably be destroyed, or at least, I hope so.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, nksarmi said:

3. Bran. I suspect since he started the series, he will end it.

I would rate Bran as easily the safest of the five, for that reason.  As marginal a character as he sometimes become as the series developed, this all started with him.

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Ayra clearly isn't on the path that was originally outlined for her - I'm almost positive he didn't intend any of this Faceless Man stuff. I know he's said he will stick close to his original ideas, but I don't think that translates into "this story will end 100% like I originally intended it to 20+ years ago." I mean, his original outline was for a trilogy for goodness sake! I think we are talking about broad strokes only and I would not be surprised at all if he decides one of those original five will die.

Of those five I think the order of their "safeness" goes as follows:

1. Jon. It does seem to be his story and I would not be surprised if he is ruling at the end. I just don't think it will be the Iron Throne.

2. Tyrion. While I don't think he will be king - I think he could be an advisor or rule Casterly Rock. Basically, I think he will be everything Tywin wanted in a son but couldn't ever accept that Tyrion was his true heir. Plus I think GRRM just likes so much that he won't be able to resist giving him a happy ending.

3. Bran. I suspect since he started the series, he will end it. He will be the wise one to guide Jon.

4. Arya. I don't know what role she will play in the end, but I think Martin likes her enough to keep her alive.

5. Dany. I don't see her surviving to be honest and if she does, I have no idea what her role would be. I think her happy ending is the after life with her husband and son.

Bran is the safest as far as I'm concerned. He seems to be on the path to becoming something of an immortal. 

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Bran is the safest as far as I'm concerned. He seems to be on the path to becoming something of an immortal. 

Agreed. Benjen even referred to Bran as the new Three-Eyed Raven. He may not end up in the PARTICULAR tree that original recipe did, but my hunch is that between his injuries and role his future will NOT be as any form of temporal ruler.

That also prevents a conflict between Jon/Sansa and Bran over ruling Winterfell once he returns to civilization on the show (in the books Robb's will would take precedence regardless of the normal chain of inheritance so its not an issue).

One other random thought related to Bran. Presuming that there is some magic to the Wall that keeps the Others contained and they're using Bran to break it just as they did with the Tree, who will help Bran get to Winterfell ahead of the advancing army of the dead? I'm wondering if perhaps Edd and some of the other Night's Watch might actually survive because Edd realizes there's no point in dying to falling ice and overwhelming forces (staying in a hopeless position with no means to actually accomplish anything does not protect the realms of men) and so orders the men to fall back and thereby provide Bran with the protection he'll need to reach Winterfell.

I know its more likely that what's left of the Night's Watch including Edd just dies horribly when the Wall comes down, but it'd be awesome if they could finagle a way for Edd to actually survive all this.

[SeanC]

I've gone back and forth on the Wall falling -- particularly since saddling Bran with such a colossal fuckup would be a pretty terrible burden on the poor kid, but more generally because I'm ambivalent about whether the White Walkers breaching the Wall at this point make any narrative sense.

[Chris24601]

I think they're running out of time to NOT bring the Wall down. My hunch is that Dany finally getting her butt in gear and on her way to Westeros will be narratively linked to the Wall coming down as that will put Ice and Fire on a collision course for Winterfell.

Why Winterfell? Because its right about halfway between King's Landing (where Dany is likely to make her arrival and then work north) and the Wall, so if the Others and Dany make about the same speed (I can see the Others spreading out to wipe out every last community en route south... which could slow them a bit) they should both get to Winterfell right about the same time.

I also think you could keep the budget under control by NOT showing the Others and Wights all that much, but focus on the refugees from further north streaming to Winterfell with stories of the Others slaughtering whole villages. If Dany turns out as bad as those like myself expect there could also be refugees streaming north ahead of the Dothraki as well such that all those who don't want to be slaughtered end up flocking around Winterfell and Jon. Thereby giving all the survivors reason to proclaim Jon not just King in the North, but King of Westeros, because he's the one who ends up saving them from the respective threats.

[ElizaD]

I've been trying to find the Riverlands spoilers again, without any luck. Does anyone remember exactly what was said about the Blackfish? Did he sound like a Stannis or a Sandor - someone who is clearly set to die a few seconds later, it just happens offscreen, or someone who is simply believed dead in the confusion but could possibly return next season (as I'm hoping: even if Arya gets Nymeria's pack, she should need a bit of help getting them inside Riverrun for a Frey massacre)?

I can't remember there being any spoilers about the trailer scene of Littlefinger in the Winterfell godswood. It's probably a scene with Sansa, either at the beginning of 6x10 as he tries to talk her into claiming power or at the end as setup for her season 7 plot. I guess there's still a small chance that she develops a brain and orders his head cut off if she feels she's now got the support of Royce and the Vale army.

[Oscirus]

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Its called "Game of Thrones" because that's a better name than "A Song of Ice and Fire" for a television show (short and pithy wins the day for TV show titles).

You name a show because it sets the tone for the show. Yes, admittedly, Game of Thrones is shorter and catcher but if the show wasn't about the political movings of players trying to get as far as they can, then it would just be called a song of ice and fire.  And yes, the irony is not lost on me that a character like Snow is the main protagonist of this story.
 

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The Iron Throne isn't the only throne in the story (if there were only one it'd be Game of Throne :D ). That's just the throne of the Targaryan conquerors and is only a few hundred years old. There's also the Salt Throne of the Ironborn for example.

 

Well, you're right, there's multiple thrones and they're all being fought over. Hell, at the moment, not including the iron throne, we have three different throne  battles going on. The iron throne just happens to be the most important. Therefore, I think that , whoever sits on the iron throne at the end will be the one who unites all seven kingdoms.  That's not to say it won't be Jon, because it very well could be. Just that if he becomes the king, that's the throne he'll be sitting atop.

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But there is also a much OLDER throne in the story though... Millennia before the Targaryens conquered Westeros, there were other kings... the descendants of the one who led all mankind through The Long Night... The Kings of Winter upon the Throne of Winterfell. If Dany is a villain in the story and the heroes are the Starks reunited and restored then why not their ancestral throne as well

Because it's never been established in the show. It would be sloppy writing to introduce that as the main prize in season seven.

16 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Ayra clearly isn't on the path that was originally outlined for her - I'm almost positive he didn't intend any of this Faceless Man stuff. I know he's said he will stick close to his original ideas, but I don't think that translates into "this story will end 100% like I originally intended it to 20+ years ago." I mean, his original outline was for a trilogy for goodness sake! I think we are talking about broad strokes only and I would not be surprised at all if he decides one of those original five will die.

Of those five I think the order of their "safeness" goes as follows:

1. Jon. It does seem to be his story and I would not be surprised if he is ruling at the end. I just don't think it will be the Iron Throne.

2. Tyrion. While I don't think he will be king - I think he could be an advisor or rule Casterly Rock. Basically, I think he will be everything Tywin wanted in a son but couldn't ever accept that Tyrion was his true heir. Plus I think GRRM just likes so much that he won't be able to resist giving him a happy ending.

3. Bran. I suspect since he started the series, he will end it. He will be the wise one to guide Jon.

4. Arya. I don't know what role she will play in the end, but I think Martin likes her enough to keep her alive.

5. Dany. I don't see her surviving to be honest and if she does, I have no idea what her role would be. I think her happy ending is the after life with her husband and son.

Hmm, after some reflection and adding Sansa to the list.:

1. Bran- Narrator has to be safe.

2. Sansa- I see her working from the shadows don't really see her getting put in any more dangerous situations.

3. Jon- Main character- Dying a second time would be overkill. He could sacrifice himself, but I'm not seeing it.

4. Arya- Sold her soul to the devil and the devil may come to collect. Probably won't but it's something to consider.

5. Tyrion- I don't think any character's been in more death type situations than him.  Eventually his luck has to run out. Right?

6. Dany- Impossible to defeat, signs of madness, a scene from the house of the undying that seems to indicate her death.

[Oscirus]

Just read an interesting theory tell me what you guys think:

Seven people will save the world - Jon (Warrior), Daenerys (Mother), Tyrion (Father), Bran (Smith), Arya (Stranger), Sansa (Maiden) and Melisandre (Crone).

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Just read an interesting theory tell me what you guys think:

Seven people will save the world - Jon (Warrior), Daenerys (Mother), Tyrion (Father), Bran (Smith), Arya (Stranger), Sansa (Maiden) and Melisandre (Crone).

Sounds likely, but I would swap out Samwell as the Father, Tyrion as the Smith. I realize that doesn't leave Bran anything, but is he a smith? Tyrion at least designed a saddle and some armaments. Not sure about Danaerys as Mother, but I guess it fits because of her being called Mhysa and Mother of Dragons. Sansa and Arya are right, definitely.

[nksarmi]

Well that would put more importance on the Seven than has been put to date. :)

Bran is an odd fit for Smith. I know his namesake was Bran the Builder. But even trying to look at it from a figurative perspective, I don't think Bran will "build" much. Perhaps Bran doesn't fit because he is the representative of the Old Gods?

Tyrion is an odd pick for Father - I'd actually put book Jamie in that role.

Gendry is a Smith. I wonder if he is going to matter in the end?

[GrailKing]

Been thinking, we had sort have gotten a GOHH vision on Arya's death count by way of Mellisandre's blue eyes, brown eyes death reference; but we haven't gotten one about Sansa's killing the Savage Giant in a castle built of snow. So will we get one and if not does it make the GOHH prophesy wrong.

They're together, but I don't see them speaking to each other.

[Maximum Taco]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Just read an interesting theory tell me what you guys think:

Seven people will save the world - Jon (Warrior), Daenerys (Mother), Tyrion (Father), Bran (Smith), Arya (Stranger), Sansa (Maiden) and Melisandre (Crone).

I don't think Tyrion or Bran fit those archetypes. Unless the wide speculation that our Bran is in fact a time traveller and is also Bran the Builder is true. I don't see how Tyrion is a father though.

The (still living) Fathers of the main group of characters are Davos, Jaime and arguably Sam.

There are no Smiths, the only smith we know who is still living is Gendry.

Also, The Seven have barely factored into the main story in a real way, it's not like R'hllor who sends visions and resurrects the dead, or the Old Gods who definitely have real power. The Seven don't seem like the same kind of religion, it's more like a modern  religion, rules to live by, gods to give comfort, but no real supernatural or divine impact on the world. To introduce this kind of development so late seems a little sloppy.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Chris24601]

What's even more amusing is that the actual Faith of the Seven in the books is actually monotheistic. The Proper title is The Seven Who Are One and the seven are aspects of a singular God in the same way that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are to the Christian Trinity.

Also, despite the High Sparrow's actions, the Faith of the Seven (Who Are One) is probably the most benign of the religions depicted. For example the Old Gods and Red God had rituals of human sacrifice while the Seven do not.

Also interesting is that, unlike the Drowned God/Sky God or R'hllor/Great Other binaries of the other faiths, The Seven instead incorporates those opposites (father/mother, maiden/crone, warrior/smith) into a single whole. Its the most harmonious of the faiths yet has the least magic associated with it.

It almost makes me wonder if magic in the world is a result of inbalance; the more out of balance the world gets the greater the potential for magic, while the more in balance things are the less magic is in the world.

That would certainly have implications for the ending and who is likely to survive into the new world after the cataclysm (i.e. the less magical/the more in balance the better).

[DigitalCount]

In addition, we know for a fact that F7 is a load of crap in both the books and show. Tyrion most definitely did not kill Joffrey. There is no question of this. In fact, I think it's the only religion that has been conclusively shown not to deliver. Oberyn should have won the fight against the Mountain. Heck, Tyrion should have been able to defeat the Mountain if he didn't get a champion, because he was innocent. If F7 was real, with trial by combat an established aspect of that religion, neither he nor his champion should have been capable of losing that fight. I don't really think it will factor into the final fate of the story; it's really just a social and cultural ornament rather than an actual religion.

[nksarmi]

31 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

In addition, we know for a fact that F7 is a load of crap in both the books and show. Tyrion most definitely did not kill Joffrey. There is no question of this. In fact, I think it's the only religion that has been conclusively shown not to deliver. Oberyn should have won the fight against the Mountain. Heck, Tyrion should have been able to defeat the Mountain if he didn't get a champion, because he was innocent. If F7 was real, with trial by combat an established aspect of that religion, neither he nor his champion should have been capable of losing that fight. I don't really think it will factor into the final fate of the story; it's really just a social and cultural ornament rather than an actual religion.

Though technically, I kind of felt that Tywin misjudged Tyrion's trial. I felt that worse case - the whole thing was a draw and a new fight should have been played out, because the Mountain was clearly a dead man even before he killed Oberyn.

[SeanC]

45 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

In addition, we know for a fact that F7 is a load of crap in both the books and show. Tyrion most definitely did not kill Joffrey. There is no question of this. In fact, I think it's the only religion that has been conclusively shown not to deliver. Oberyn should have won the fight against the Mountain. Heck, Tyrion should have been able to defeat the Mountain if he didn't get a champion, because he was innocent. If F7 was real, with trial by combat an established aspect of that religion, neither he nor his champion should have been capable of losing that fight. I don't really think it will factor into the final fate of the story; it's really just a social and cultural ornament rather than an actual religion.

I don't necessarily know how much you can take from that.  R'hllor clearly has some power associated with it, but the Hound won his trial by combat when he was, strictly speaking, guilty of the charge against him.

[Oscirus]

Yea I agree that Dany, Tyrion and Bran's archetypes were off and I'd even go so far as to say that Mellisandre's addition feels a bit forced since she's not close to being a main player, I even agree with the fact that it's a bit too late in the game to make the seven a major factor in the endgame.   But for all it's faults, the lostie in me still find the theory intriguing.

[Harald Hardrada]

IMO, Let me tell you something.

The man who should become King of the Seven Kingdoms is the one who can slay Dany's 3 dragons and defeat her army then marries her while she wept and mourn the loss of her dragons/army and hopeless dream to be the queen. That kind of warrior is worthy to rule Westeros and even the known world. Imagine the news of this legendary battle. They will sing a song about him. Think Rains Of Castamere but with dragons and blood.

[Chris24601]

Why would anyone want to marry Dany after annihilating her dragons and her army and her ability to become queen? Who'd want some crazy woman who is most likely infertile and has no claims to anything? Who would want a woman with a history of betrayal (ask the Masters of Astapor) and an unquenchable thirst for vengeance that they defeated as a bride?

She can give you no sons or lands and will betray/murder you at the first opportunity to try and regain what she believes you took from her. Anyone who'd deliberately invoke that situation doesn't have the wisdom to be a good king.

Better move... Slay the dragons AND the evil conqueror queen, put their heads on pikes, then go and propose to Sansa, who is pretty high up the lines of succession for both Winterfell and the Riverlands, can presumably produce heirs AND won't try to kill or betray you if you treat her with kindness and respect.

[Hecate7]

19 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Though technically, I kind of felt that Tywin misjudged Tyrion's trial. I felt that worse case - the whole thing was a draw and a new fight should have been played out, because the Mountain was clearly a dead man even before he killed Oberyn.

That, actually, is a good point. Tywin pretty much lied. He should have declared Tyrion innocent. Hmmmm....if the 7 were real, what should be the punishment for a king, court, and country who ignored the result of a TBC and declared an innocent man guilty? Tywin's dead, Tommen's a dead man walking, the true killers of the king are in dire straits, the Mountain doesn't look happy at all,  Cersei's had a walk of shame and perhaps her own TBC will have a terrifying outcome...maybe the 7 aren't as fake as they seem.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Hecate7
Wasn't finished.

[Harald Hardrada]

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Why would anyone want to marry Dany after annihilating her dragons and her army and her ability to become queen? Who'd want some crazy woman who is most likely infertile and has no claims to anything? Who would want a woman with a history of betrayal (ask the Masters of Astapor) and an unquenchable thirst for vengeance that they defeated as a bride?

She can give you no sons or lands and will betray/murder you at the first opportunity to try and regain what she believes you took from her. Anyone who'd deliberately invoke that situation doesn't have the wisdom to be a good king.

Better move... Slay the dragons AND the evil conqueror queen, put their heads on pikes, then go and propose to Sansa, who is pretty high up the lines of succession for both Winterfell and the Riverlands, can presumably produce heirs AND won't try to kill or betray you if you treat her with kindness and respect.

An unexpected defeat and total annihilation of her army/babies would emotionally distraught Dany, so it's like a final "conquest", her life spared but aren't really alive. She'd be in a cell as trophy wife of the victor (symbolized the end of the Targaryen dynasty) while the unnamed Warrior wed a true noblewomen such as Sansa like you said, though I would prefer a female warrior like Asha/Yara.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

That, actually, is a good point. Tywin pretty much lied. He should have declared Tyrion innocent. Hmmmm....if the 7 were real, what should be the punishment for a king, court, and country who ignored the result of a TBC and declared an innocent man guilty? Tywin's dead, Tommen's a dead man walking, the true killers of the king are in dire straits, the Mountain doesn't look happy at all,  Cersei's had a walk of shame and perhaps her own TBC will have a terrifying outcome...maybe the 7 aren't as fake as they seem.

There religion didn't just spring from nothing and since magic is real there had to be some "there" there at some point in the past or there wouldn't be a Faith of the Seven.

That said, the only real magic we've seen from the Red Priests has actually come when their faith in their god was at its weakest and we know from the books that the Old Gods are just the collective intelligence of dead Children of the Forest uploaded into the weirwood trees. So its equally possible that there are actually no gods at all, just magic inherent to the world that some people can tap into and that some try to claim comes from some god or another.

The fact that the Others have been revealed to be the CotF version of Skynet and not the creation of some Great Other in opposition to R'hllor just adds more weight to the notion that the gods in GoT are all just stories told to explain the behavior of fundamental forces in their world that have no more will behind them than gravity does in our world.

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

That said, the only real magic we've seen from the Red Priests has actually come when their faith in their god was at its weakest and we know from the books that the Old Gods are just the collective intelligence of dead Children of the Forest uploaded into the weirwood trees.

Mel was able to do plenty of magic when her faith was strong.

Also, the Children themselves worship the Old Gods; that's where the First Men got the practise from.

[Haleth]

I would love to see (well, not really but it would be the ultimate twist) Dany arrive in Westeros with her dragons, only to find out the dragons can't survive the cold of winter (which is coming, did you hear?) and they immediately drop dead.  Checkmate, Night King.

[Chris24601]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

Mel was able to do plenty of magic when her faith was strong.

Also, the Children themselves worship the Old Gods; that's where the First Men got the practise from.

On the show the only magic we've seen from Red Priests came when Thoros and Mel had their faith at their lowest ebb. The books are a bit different, but everything else Mel did on the show could be pulled off by parlor tricks and chance (i.e. on the show the leeches only coincided with two of the three kings named dying... and both died due to betrayals at the hands of people they betrayed or threatened).

The showrunners have pretty consistently toned down the magic in the story, but we don't know how much of that is just their preference and how much is an adaptational choice (i.e. if the story reveals the gods are just made up and magic is more about bloodlines or such then the Red Priests only pulling off magic in the show when they lacked faith could be a way to foreshadow this in a medium that is always pressed for time).

The Old Gods are the minds of Children that have been "uploaded" into Weirwood trees upon their deaths. For the Children its basically ancestor veneration (respect) not worship (praise and devotion). The First Men didn't know that though and took it to be a true religion and acted accordingly.

* * * *

On another topic, I re-watched episode 6 last night with friends and that final conversation between Jaime and Cersei has me thinking there is a very strong likelihood that Cersei is going to die.

Just the talk about how if Jaime went and killed the High Sparrow he'd be dead and he's the only thing that matters (Tommen was exempted from that) how Jaime needed to lead the Lannister armies and be the man their father always wanted him to be (i.e. Lord of Casterly Rock)... it left me with the same sense that Ned's "When I see you again we'll talk about your mother" to Jon did. It felt like it was tying up Cersei's loose ends and that she was going to do something that will just literally blow King's Landing off the map and take all the players including herself with it. I think she's going to be the one who ends up killing Tommen (she was willing to do it once rather than risk losing him to Stannis... now she HAS lost him to Margery and the High Sparrow).

I'm thinking that the absence of Aegon (a little brother to the girl who would have been a queen had the Mountain not murdered her) and his rise to power in union with the Faith (which seems to have been giving to Tommen) might have something to do with why the Valonqar prophecy was left out of the show. Because of the condensation of plots Cersei can't die the way she will in the books so they left the prediction of how she'll die out of the show.

I know some people say that Cersei can't die without a grant Lannister sibling reunion, but I don't think that's entirely true. There's little nuance in Cersei's feelings for Tyrion that needs to be explored. She hates him and that will never change. The bulk of the resonance between the Lannister siblings has always been Jaime and Tyrion and, by removing Jaime from King's Landing before it goes to hell and taking away any reason he might have to want to go back keeps Jaime alive this season and away from King's Landing at the start of next season when Dany will likely be marching her forces into the place (and given that he killed her father, the only way Jaime lives to get a reunion with Tyrion is if he's NOT in proximity to Dany).

There have been some rumors of an unexpected leading character death coming this season. Littlefinger would be my first bet, but he's not quite around enough to be a true lead (more a very strong supporting character). But Cersei, who has appeared in more episodes than anyone but Tyrion, dying would be a pretty titanic and unexpected death.

Well, unexpected until you realize they're in the process of clearing the board for a thirteen episode grand finale and Cersei and the King's Landing players have always been but a distraction from the main event. My bet is she takes every last King's Landing character who's still in the city at the end of the season with her in one way or another (with the possible exception of Qybern and the Mountain... because Frankenstein and his Monster would be an interesting addition to Dany's growing "Evil League of Evil" menagerie... dragons, mongols, pirates, fanatics in black face concealing armor...).

[Macbeth]

On 5/31/2016 at 2:42 AM, AliShibaz said:

Umm ... this is "Speculation". So, I hope it will be OK for me to wonder out loud if anyone has any speculation on just who Ian will play and when oh when will he appear?

I read an article Ian McShane did about the show in which he refers to GOT as "Tits and Dragons" - God bless Sweringen - if what he says is true (and Ian can't give 2 shits on spoiling - I adore him) then this is what happens:

Spoiler

He said he played a peacenik who is an ex-warrior.  He raises someone from the dead.  When he was asked if it was the Hound or Jon Snow.  He said - it wasn't the latter but it could be the former.  He is showing up in the episode "The Broken Man."  And sorry to say - his character does die.  Even if he is only on for 10 minutes - that will be the highlight of the show for me.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Macbeth

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

On the show the only magic we've seen from Red Priests came when Thoros and Mel had their faith at their lowest ebb. The books are a bit different, but everything else Mel did on the show could be pulled off by parlor tricks and chance (i.e. on the show the leeches only coincided with two of the three kings named dying... and both died due to betrayals at the hands of people they betrayed or threatened).

Birthing a shadow baby?  All the prophesying?

[GrailKing]

We haven't seen much of Mel since Jon and Sansa meet at CB, I read in reddit, that she is

at the battle or near by doing a protection spell for Jon

, not sure I believe it, anyone else read that?

[FemmyV]

If Cersei dies already, who will take her place as female antagonist?

[CofCinci]

8 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

If Cersei dies already, who will take her place as female antagonist?

Dany. 

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 9:57 AM, GrailKing said:

We haven't seen much of Mel since Jon and Sansa meet at CB, I read in reddit, that she is

  Hide contents

at the battle or near by doing a protection spell for Jon

, not sure I believe it, anyone else read that?

Spoiler

Do you think this is something Jon would readily accept, now that she's raised him from the dead?  Davos saw what Stannis went through by placing so much faith in Melisandre and her prophecies.  I'm wondering if Davos and Jon are now all in with Mel and whatever magic she can provide.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:20 PM, Conan Troutman said:

for Brienne and Jaime, the latter needs to get freed of Cersei's hold. That can happen two ways: Cersei will be doing it herself (burning down KL should do the trick), or Brienne will be the one to do it somehow. I think it's going to be the former, as that has been foreshadowed heavily for quite a while now. Or maybe they're doing both at the same time. Jaime did promise Brienne to help Sansa, so maybe he takes to Lannister army up north to fight the Boltons now that the Lannisters have basically rejected him - that would certainly break things up with Cersei. 

I've read suggestions that Cersei may be the one who blows up King's Landing, and I'm kind of liking it.  We've seen Bran's vision, and since it's not a memory, it must be prophecy.  Cersei threatened at least once (when Myrcella was threatened) that she would burn the place down.  She's very impulsive with her vengeance, and I could see her blowing up the whole place - and taking herself with it - once Tommen dies.  Especially if Jaime has forsaken her at this point.  I want her to stay until the end though, because I enjoy LH.

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 1:07 AM, Avaleigh said:

I have wondered what would happen if Dany attempted to mount Rhaegal or Viserion since we know a person can only bond with one dragon. I wonder if this is something she instinctively already knows or could end up being mistaken about because she sees herself as the mother of dragons. I'm just thinking of that one kid from the first dance who I think tried to ride his mother's dragon (I can't recall exactly) only to have the dragon throw him off and IIRC the kid plunged to his death. 

There's talk of how Jon will discover and prove his parentage.  Maybe people won't believe Bran's visions, or even Howland Reed, if he should turn up.  Maybe it will come down to how Dany reacts to him, and/or Rhaegal or Viserion.  Maybe a scenario in which Jon is rescued by or commands one of her babies.  Is that overly simplistic?  And not because he wargs, but because of his heritage.  Can that be why show Jon is not known to warg?

[Maximum Taco]

40 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

There's talk of how Jon will discover and prove his parentage.  Maybe people won't believe Bran's visions, or even Howland Reed, if he should turn up.  Maybe it will come down to how Dany reacts to him, and/or Rhaegal or Viserion.  Maybe a scenario in which Jon is rescued by or commands one of her babies.  Is that overly simplistic?  And not because he wargs, but because of his heritage.  Can that be why show Jon is not known to warg?

That doesn't really prove anything though, at least not in the books.

In the Dance of the Dragons (not the book but the civil war between Aegon and Rhaenyra Targaryen) 4 "dragonseeds" become dragon riders. All are bastards and some not even proven to have any Targaryen ancestors, just rumoured to because the Targaryens are noted sluts that fuck anything that moves on Dragonstone, so any kid with white hair (and many others besides) is just assumed to be a Targaryen bastard. In the books Dany's dragons even take a liking to Brown Ben Plumm, which he attributes to him having "a drop of dragonblood" in him; he claims one of his ancestors was a Princess of House Targaryen.

If Jon manages to tame a dragon it could just be that he had an ancestor who had an ancestor that was a Targaryen, or Jon's mother could be a whore who's own mother was a whore who fucked a Targaryen prince.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Maximum Taco