Season 11 Anticipation More Stabs, etc...

[JMO]

I am no fan of many of the choices EM has made for the show.  However...

 

Lying is a purposeful act.  It is saying something when one knows something else to be true.  It is not misspeaking, nor misunderstanding, nor misremembering.  It is also not 'changing one's mind' when, for instance, there is a wave of fan derision about a choice not to show a character's fallout from severe trauma.  The latter, no matter how well or poorly it is accomplished, is simply a response to feedback.

 

It is difficult to make an accusation of lying when one does not, independently (and with full corroboration) know the truth.  Making such accusations without having independent knowledge of the truth is an excellent way to get the object of your accusations to completely ignore you.  If fans don't want to be heard, making false accusations is an excellent path to success.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I am no fan of many of the choices EM has made for the show.  However...

 

Lying is a purposeful act.  It is saying something when one knows something else to be true.  It is not misspeaking, nor misunderstanding, nor misremembering.  It is also not 'changing one's mind' when, for instance, there is a wave of fan derision about a choice not to show a character's fallout from severe trauma.  The latter, no matter how well or poorly it is accomplished, is simply a response to feedback.

 

Being as I'm usually a generous soul (try not to laugh), I suppose I could believe that Erica just changed her mind or was responding to feedback when she sat down to write The Forever People, but that just makes me ask another question - why on earth would she want to make an episode that was even worse than 200? Because I think what we can agree on is that 200 was an awful piece of.....television, and why Erica would want to double down on it is an enigma for the ages.

 

Further, who are these people who were clamoring so loudly across the internet about wanting to see yet another JJ showcase after (the awful) 200,JustMyOpinion? Like, real, provable numbers, since if we need proof (sorry) to back up a claim that Messer lied, maybe there should be proof that she didn't lie. If nothing else, I personally cannot believe that no one wanted to see an episode about Reid dealing with being with being shot and nearly dying, or to see how he was coping with Alex's departure after they had that really nice final conversation in Demons. For the sake of argument, let's say that people who wanted to see 200 Squared actually exist, and that they're vocal enough (or JJ-obsessed enough, take your pick) to make themselves heard. Why would they be the ones Erica chooses to listen to, because that's really the only option, that she was more receptive to the idea. Even I don't think that she's dim enough to not know that Spencer Reid has just as many, if not more, devoted fans than JJ does, but she completely ignores an entire contingent of her viewership in order to greenlight something even lousier than 200? Yeah, that makes complete sense.

 

My point is, we saw with Mr. Scratch that CM can still kick quite a lot of ass. Did everyone like it? Probably not, because there's no such thing as a total consensus, like ever. But if Erica made the conscious decision to respond to the feedback of people who wanted to see JJ being supposedly completely traumatized and yet still manage to nearly single-handedly solve the case, and then hallucinate a conversation with her torturer, then I'm going to need that suggestion backed up with some kind of actual statistics that these are real people and not some amorphous 'they' that she cherry-picked out of a focus group so she could have an excuse to do what she maybe wanted to do all along, keep JJ in the spotlight, no matter how crappy the episode was. Because that needing evidence thing works both ways.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[missmycat]

Being as I'm usually a generous soul (try not to laugh), I suppose I could believe that Erica just changed her mind or was responding to feedback when she sat down to write The Forever People, but that just makes me ask another question - why on earth would she want to make an episode that was even worse than 200? Because I think what we can agree on is that 200 was an awful piece of.....television, and why Erica would want to double down on it is an enigma for the ages.

 

Further, who are these people who were clamoring so loudly across the internet about wanting to see yet another JJ showcase after (the awful) 200,JustMyOpinion? Like, real, provable numbers, since if we need proof (sorry) to back up a claim that Messer lied, maybe there should be proof that she didn't lie. If nothing else, I personally cannot believe that no one wanted to see an episode about Reid dealing with being with being shot and nearly dying, or to see how he was coping with Alex's departure after they had that really nice final conversation in Demons. For the sake of argument, let's say that people who wanted to see 200 Squared actually exist, and that they're vocal enough (or JJ-obsessed enough, take your pick) to make themselves heard. Why would they be the ones Erica chooses to listen to, because that's really the only option, that she was more receptive to the idea. Even I don't think that she's dim enough to not know that Spencer Reid has just as many, if not more, devoted fans than JJ does, but she completely ignores an entire contingent of her viewership in order to greenlight something even lousier than 200? Yeah, that makes complete sense.

 

My point is, we saw with Mr. Scratch that CM can still kick quite a lot of ass. Did everyone like it? Probably not, because there's no such thing as a total consensus, like ever. But if Erica made the conscious decision to respond to the feedback of people who wanted to see JJ being supposedly completely traumatized and yet still manage to nearly single-handedly solve the case, and then hallucinate a conversation with her torturer, then I'm going to need that suggestion backed up with some kind of actual statistics that these are real people and not some amorphous 'they' that she cherry-picked out of a focus group so she could have an excuse to do what she maybe wanted to do all along, keep JJ in the spotlight, no matter how crappy the episode was. Because that needing evidence thing works both ways.

Excellent post CoStar.However, Breen Frasier was the one who wrote that awful Forever People. However, I am willing to bet that EM's hand was involve in a huge way. I agree that Erica seemingly only wants to listen to feedback when it pertains to something she wants herself. It's still mind boggling that they had actually believed that this episode would help us see JJ as less of a Super woman, or my perference, a Mary Sue.

 

The thing that angers me the most is I believe MESSer is damn well aware that fans have been clamoring for more Reid.And when she finally decided to respond, Erica chose to do it in a way that made sure JJ would still be in the spotlight and Reid continuing to play second fiddle to her.  I know for a fact that many Hotch fans as well as Reid fans were livid over the fact that it had originally suppose to be Hotch whom JJ would turn to but then it suddenly changed to Reid. And no one can convince me this wasn't MESSer responding to the demands of more Reid. Unfortunately judging from the Reid we got in that awful "Forever People" she must feel we don't give a damn how inept Reid is made to look, just so long as we get us some Reid.I don't know maybe I am just being too damn picky.Although, I'd like to feel that it is actually because I have too much respect for the character of Reid to be able to put up with him being written the way he was in that episode.

Edited May 23, 2015 by missmycat

[Saje]

cobaltstargazer, so you are asking us to accept your accusation of "LIES, ALL LIES" without any background or proof, yet want JustMyOpinion to prove that Erica wasn't lying? 

 

That's not a quantifiable entity. And your (or anyone's) kneejerk reaction to whatever the woman says isn't proof enough that she lied. This isn't a court of law, and opinions are subjective, but a lie is a lie. Something is either true or it isn't. What you are asking us to believe is that she goes into these interviews every single time evilly twirling her moustache and deliberately setting out to tell us things that are completely false. To what end? I'm sorry but that is just... not true. 

 

:-D

[MCatry]

This thing about 'lies' is starting to get thick.

According to the dictionary, a lie is

"a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood."

I will only bring two little examples regarding Messer:

Season seven - finale spoilers- "one member of the team will be in peril!!! Oh my gosh!!!"

Season eight - finale spoilers- "one member of the team will die!!! Oh my gosh!!!"

Now, what happened?

Season seven: the one in great peril was... Will.

Season eight: the one who died was... Strauss.

Not Will nor Strauss are part of the BAU team.

She either intentionally said something it was not true in order to attract viewers, or she didin't know Will and Strauss were not part of the team.

I just don't think the second option is possible.

About what happened with the Lynch case: Messer stated that they tried to get Lynch, but she was too busy with Glee, and when interviewed, Lynch said they never even asked her. Well, I guess here is just a matter of opinion, but one of those two is not being honest, and I have the right to feel inclined to believe Lynch was saying the true.

And for the record, I don't mind her lying. Everybody lies and in her line of work, that was the right thing to do. If she would have been honest and said something like "oh, well, you know, nothing happens to the team, but hey! We have an awesome story, and lots of action and guest cast!" I doubt all of us would have been sitting in front of the tv those nights.

The same happened with 200. She obviously had to said stuff like 'Prentiss will be a driven force in this episode", because quite a few fans wanted to see her. She had to said "The team will work hard to get their JJ back"

In the end, we had lots of JJ, the new guy, the deceased Strauss, and a bunch of terrorists we never heard before, with bits of the team. She knew what she helped to create/produce/edit. And of course, she couldn't give away what they did before the official broadcasting.

I am seriously ok with that. Showrunners have to do what they have to do in order to keep their shows on the run.

What puzzles me the most is that she is aware of the audience desires. She has demonstrated that when she shot both Morgan and Reid to add some drama to the end of season nine; she has demonstrated that when she allowed Hotch centric episodes to happen. She demonstrated that when she started pairing JJ with Reid again to restore their 'friendship' in order to make JJ liked again.

And yet, even though she knows what to do, she doesn't want to walk that path.

And I am still wondering why,

[JMO]

 

(the awful) 200,™JustMyOpinion

 

Thanks for the trademark, CoStar! 

 

While I don't disagree with most of your complaints about EM's choices, I do disagree that she, or anyone else, is required to prove her veracity.  We should take people at their word, until or unless proven otherwise.  In that vein, I also do think that MCatry gave us two good examples of times when what EM said was clearly not true.  Unlike MCatry, I actually don't think most people lie most of the time, and I don't think there are very many life circumstances where it is necessary.  Some, but not many.  And none of those circumstances have to do with business.

 

I do think words matter, and I think we all need to be responsible for the words we use. That includes those of us who state as fact some things that we only believe to be true, 'just because', and without feeling a need to base those opinions in actual fact.  When proven wrong, does that mean they were lying?  No, not any more than EM.

 

The reason I'm fastidious about this is that I keep allowing myself to fall into the trap of thinking that opinions expressed here might actually have an impact on decisions made by the show.  But that requires a reasoned response, based on clear, rational argument.  I don't think we get that here much of the time.  That doesn't mean people should stop posting as they do, or enjoying the fact that they can.  But it does mean that they shouldn't get upset with the show for not honoring fan opinions when those opinions are expressed in a way that begs for them to be dismissed. 

 

For me, It means I need to let go of my idea that someone would actually take what we say seriously.  I'll work on it.

[Saje]

The reason I'm fastidious about this is that I keep allowing myself to fall into the trap of thinking that opinions expressed here might actually have an impact on decisions made by the show.  But that requires a reasoned response, based on clear, rational argument.  I don't think we get that here much of the time.  That doesn't mean people should stop posting as they do, or enjoying the fact that they can.  But it does mean that they shouldn't get upset with the show for not honoring fan opinions when those opinions are expressed in a way that begs for them to be dismissed. 

 

For me, It means I need to let go of my idea that someone would actually take what we say seriously.  I'll work on it.

 

Right, agreed. From what I've seen there's maybe ten or so people who post regularly here? In a forum buried three levels deep, with many subforums to get through. I found you all because of my friend, but not everyone just looking to talk about Criminal Minds would ever find this place. I get worked up about some of the topics discussed, but I don't think by any stretch that my investiture in opinion equates to the show monitoring this particular forum, and least of all taking my opinion as any form of fannish gospel. 

[JMO]

I don't think it's actually hard to find.  If I were employed by the show to monitor fan response, a quick search on line for 'Criminal Minds forum' would bring it right up. 

 

It's hard to know how showrunners and their colleagues think about these things.  It seems like, mostly, they need to deal in numbers, rather than actual critique.  Thereby, Facebook gives them a much larger number of respondents, even if it is rare that a critical comment is made. If numbers are all they are interested in (which may be very true, as that is what gets them paid), then they're done, and don't need to look any further.

 

But a TV show is also made by artists--writers, actors, directors, producers, even crew.  A good artist will savor the good responses, but seek out the negative as well.  And a savvy artist will know when even a lone critic has hit on something.  That would be the reason to go beyond Facebook.  I just don't know if they do. 

 

But if they did, and if I wasn't the person trying to give up the idea, I would think it important to put things in a way such that they can be heard.  But since I'm giving that up.....

[Droogie]

I found this forum last fall when I was looking for CM info, so I think it's pretty accessible.

As I have said previously, the ones who post here represent a larger portion of viewers who do not -- I never knew of a CM forum, but that didn't stop me from watching it avidly and talking about it amongst my friends IRL. And I did hear that, at least once upon a time, writers looked around the internet to see what fans were saying about the show. I would hazard a guess that they still do, at least on occasion. Maybe it's their job, maybe they just do it out of curiosity -- but if I put something creative out there for public consumption, I would want to know, from time to time, what people were saying about it.

And surely they know the FB demographic by now. At least enough not to base the entire premise of the show on it.

[Russet29]

The problem with the argument of "we represent the larger viewing audience" is that there are only about 10-20 people who post on here. This represents roughly .000001% of the entire audience, assuming the audience is about 15 million people. That's far too weak of a sample size to make the claim that we represent even a significant portion of the fan base.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

cobaltstargazer, so you are asking us to accept your accusation of "LIES, ALL LIES" without any background or proof, yet want JustMyOpinion to prove that Erica wasn't lying? 

 

That's not a quantifiable entity. And your (or anyone's) kneejerk reaction to whatever the woman says isn't proof enough that she lied. This isn't a court of law, and opinions are subjective, but a lie is a lie. Something is either true or it isn't. What you are asking us to believe is that she goes into these interviews every single time evilly twirling her moustache and deliberately setting out to tell us things that are completely false. To what end? I'm sorry but that is just... not true. 

 

:-D

 

No, that isn't what I was saying, and if I gave that impression then that wasn't my intention. And FWIW, I don't think Erica is diabolical or Machiavellian or any other such thing. I don't think it has to be some plot on her part.

 

However.

 

If the past teaches us anything, then perhaps it will be at least a year before we see any fallout or repercussions for Hotch resulting from his experiences in Mr. Scratch. It will be at best swept under the rug and at worst presented that he's completely fine and dandy after hallucinating that his friends and co-workers were shot and killed right in front of him, and he couldn't do anything to stop it. For myself, I would think that that would leave some lingering trauma, and if Erica is smart, she will have learned from her mistake and give the matter the focus it deserves in the upcoming season. I should hope that she cares more for Hotch than she seems to for poor Reid, who got shot in the neck at the end of the ninth season, and the most we got out of it was Garcia wibbling down to Texas for his would-be murderer's execution. Erica doesn't have to be OMG TEH EVUL, because that would require forethought, and if her interviews are any indication...well....you know. ;-)

 

As for whether or not TPTB "should" take our ideas seriously, I don't see why not, at least not if they're open to responding to the feedback that maybe brought us The Forever People. If nothing else, we seem to put a fair amount of consideration into things, at least if the posts here are any indication. Why "our" thoughts don't or shouldn't matter but the thoughts of the Facebook crowd do is sort of weird. At least to me, but OMMV.

[Russet29]

Well I'd say the reason the producers and writers are more likely to pay attention to people on Facebook as opposed to the people on this board is because Facebook represents a much larger and more diverse group of fans. The fact is 58% of all adults on this country have a Facebook account. There isn't a percentage figure small enough to represent the number of people who have an account on this site. Each post on the CM page routinely gets thousands of likes and hundreds if not thousands of comments from different people. The CM forum on this site has about 10 consistent contributors. Facebook obviously constitutes a much larger sample size. It may also be the case that the people commenting on Facebook are largely in the key demo and those are the fans the show and the network want to cater to.

[Saje]

Agreed, and not just facebook but twitter, too. I'd say just as many are on twitter if not more, and I've noticed most people from the show are on there. So between those two social media behemoths ( not to mention tumblr and some of the other sites like Pinterest - even larger fan sites like the Round Table), they probably don't have much time for the smaller, more niche fan sites.  

 

I'm going to hold my tongue about most of the posts on twitter and facebook, except to say 'ye gods'. 

[threebluestars]

My wishes for season 11:

 

1) More profiling. That IS what these people do, right?

2) More patient storytelling.

3) Less unsub.

4) Less JJ as The Terminator.

5) Let's get back to the "I'm the unsub ... " roleplay they did in S1.

6) More interaction with local PD. They rarely work with local cops/FBI anymore. We got some great guest stars with that focus.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

The CM forum on this site has about 10 consistent contributors. Facebook obviously constitutes a much larger sample size. It may also be the case that the people commenting on Facebook are largely in the key demo and those are the fans the show and the network want to cater to.

 

Well. Thank you, Howard Beale (or Diana Christensen, depending on your gender) for telling me about the relative value of my opinion. :-P

 

More seriously, I've been to the CM Facebook page, and while it probably does represent a much larger portion of the viewership/fanbase, it doesn't necessarily represent the smartest portion of it. These seem to be the people who are rejoicing because Hewitt is leaving, that they're glad AJ's second pregnancy might be written in (sigh), and take part in polls that don't really have all that much to do with the actual show. At the risk of sounding boastful, I think we few, we happy few, have a better grasp on what Criminal Minds is supposed to be. And possibly a better grasp on reality, which is neither here nor there.

 

Further, if its true that Erica and whoever else is running things are paying the most attention to people who only ever tell them that they're brilliant and awesome, then all it does it bolster my personal suspicion that she/they are perhaps not all that bright and they believe that they're brilliant and awesome. Either that or they're so thin-skinned that they can't endure criticism of any sort. I mean, I get it, everyone likes and even needs praise when they deserve it, but if you only want to hear about what you're doing right, how can you ever fix what you're doing wrong?

[Saje]

I'm not sure that they would consider us qualified to tell them what they are doing wrong.

 

I'm sure they take some fan opinion under consideration to a small degree, but if one person (or 5 or 10) says something, especially if it's delivered with venom (goes back to what JustMyOpinion was saying), I would imagine they'd be far more apt to ignore it than give it any weight.   

[Russet29]

I agree that the people on this board tend to analyze the show on a deeper level than those posting on Facebook, but I can't imagine the writers or the network care about what the "smarter" fans think. They are more likely to care about what the majority of fans think. This is a business and more fans (particularly in the demo) means more money. This may be a stretch but it's similar to voting for elected officials. It doesn't matter if everyone in the country with an IQ of >150 votes for one person if the large majority of others vote for another candidate. Majority rules. And no, I'm not trying to make any sort of statement on our nation's government.

[Danielg342]

If 10 people on Twitter (and that's a literal figure) can force the Toronto Maple Leafs' Morgan Rielly into an apology over an innocuous comment, then I have a hard time believing that there's a forum "small enough" for the CM management to ignore. We're a lively group with intelligent and respectful analysis of the show, I'd like to think we have some value, at least.

[MCatry]

Assuming a sample is too small is not the way to go when assessing a population that exhibits a high degree of variation, but also a cluster behaviour. Ratings, for instance, are evaluated by taking into account different segments of the audience, not only determined by age, but also by gender, geographical location, economical status, social status, and several other factors. In the same way, forums, regular social media and similar participatory devices are meant to be evaluated separately since a stratified sampling must be performed. It doesn't matter how, though, but there are some media analysts evaluating trends here and there, and not just in Facebook.

We may feel inclined to believe our opinions are heard, or maybe the opposite. It's just a matter of perception. How many times I read posts here and there saying something along these lines "finally they heard us!" When clearly the last week complains cannot be resolved in a week for the next episode? Or we may think the writers are getting back in track, and then an awful episode pops up?

I personally don't care if I am in a group of ten, instead of having 80,000 likes on a silly FB post. As long as I can actually discuss different aspects of the show with people willing to write thoughtful posts in more that a bunch of characters, and without using emoticons as a replacement for words, I am ok.

By the way, I Just checked the CM FB page, and no. I am not interested in participating on it. Things like "who would you invite to your bachelor party?" Followed by pictures of Morgan, Garcia and Reid does not fit my definition of fun. Chances are, it will never be.

[SSAHotchner]

Well I'd say the reason the producers and writers are more likely to pay attention to people on Facebook as opposed to the people on this board is because Facebook represents a much larger and more diverse group of fans. The fact is 58% of all adults on this country have a Facebook account. There isn't a percentage figure small enough to represent the number of people who have an account on this site. Each post on the CM page routinely gets thousands of likes and hundreds if not thousands of comments from different people. The CM forum on this site has about 10 consistent contributors. Facebook obviously constitutes a much larger sample size. It may also be the case that the people commenting on Facebook are largely in the key demo and those are the fans the show and the network want to cater to.

But the FB crowd are mostly idiots that can't even get the characters' names right or that ask silly questions that indicate that they haven't seen all the episodes, haven't paid attention to them or are just too stupid to grasp what's going on. There are far too many of them that just respond "It was awesome!" no matter what the episode is like. I understand that there will be viewers who like what I don't and vice versa, but the overall IQ of the FB responders seems quite low to me, which is why I enjoy reading the comments here. I don't mind opinions that are contrary to mind when they are expressed with some thought and logic. You're right about the number of comments on FB and Twitter versus forums like this one, but I find it sad that there are so many viewers that don't recognize the difference between a script with great profiling/insight into the unsub and one one that is merely focused on showing us the most wacko unsubs committing the most bizarre kinds of killing the writers can come up with.  

My wishes for season 11:

 

1) More profiling. That IS what these people do, right?

2) More patient storytelling.

3) Less unsub.

4) Less JJ as The Terminator.

5) Let's get back to the "I'm the unsub ... " roleplay they did in S1.

6) More interaction with local PD. They rarely work with local cops/FBI anymore. We got some great guest stars with that focus.

Yes to all of these. I'm hoping they will not feel the need to add a new team member and will use more of the local law enforcement/agents in the cases, as they used to. 

[MCatry]

  Unlike MCatry, I actually don't think most people lie most of the time, and I don't think there are very many life circumstances where it is necessary.

 

I never said that.

 

The reason I'm fastidious about this is that I keep allowing myself to fall into the trap of thinking that opinions expressed here might actually have an impact on decisions made by the show.

Highly unlikely. Masses rule in the Entertainment world.

The problem with the argument of "we represent the larger viewing audience" is that there are only about 10-20 people who post on here. This represents roughly .000001% of the entire audience, assuming the audience is about 15 million people. That's far too weak of a sample size to make the claim that we represent even a significant portion of the fan base.

For me, that's not the problem at all, but lets assume it is. Your argument is also based on two assumptions: that the live+7 ratings is the real audience (a number advertisers and hence show producers couldn't care less) and that the Nielsen ratings are accurate when they are not. They are based on a sampling process involving a small sample of USA areas they consider relevant for their research aims (which involve, as we all know, selling stuff to viewers). They do not cover the entire country nor show the different figures per audience sector, and they certainly don't tell you when the same data has been counted twice, thrice or more. Hence, both the 15 millions or the 9 millions are just estimations, and not real figures. But at least they perform some stratified sampling. There is no practical way to obtain more than estimations of tv ratings.

Well I'd say the reason the producers and writers are more likely to pay attention to people on Facebook as opposed to the people on this board is because Facebook represents a much larger and more diverse group of fans. The fact is 58% of all adults on this country have a Facebook account. There isn't a percentage figure small enough to represent the number of people who have an account on this site. Each post on the CM page routinely gets thousands of likes and hundreds if not thousands of comments from different people. The CM forum on this site has about 10 consistent contributors. Facebook obviously constitutes a much larger sample size. It may also be the case that the people commenting on Facebook are largely in the key demo and those are the fans the show and the network want to cater to.

Facebook also offers some issues:

- people that own more than one facebook account

- people that do not live in the country (so it won't affect the key demo, nor the sales of advertisers) participate on that page.

- for a page that claims to have 14 million followers, thousands of likes imply these are the real active users of the page.

- FB posts quite a few times had very little to nothing to do with assessing how liked an episode was (I guess they do this in purpose, just in case...); take for instance posts such as "be honest, are you a CM addict?", "can you guess which pair of eyes belongs to a criminal minds star?", "which criminal mind character would you invite to your bachelor party?"... I just don't see how these posts could help the writers to assess if the audience is happy with their work.

[JMO]

Sorry if I overstated, MCatry.  I was referencing this:

 

And for the record, I don't mind her lying. Everybody lies and in her line of work, that was the right thing to do.

 

But I can see that you might have meant it differently.

[MCatry]

My wishes for season 11:

 

1) More profiling. That IS what these people do, right?

2) More patient storytelling.

3) Less unsub.

4) Less JJ as The Terminator.

5) Let's get back to the "I'm the unsub ... " roleplay they did in S1.

6) More interaction with local PD. They rarely work with local cops/FBI anymore. We got some great guest stars with that focus.

I agree.

More profiling, no shooting and running in the dark so the stunts cannot be caught replacing the ultra fit Moore and Cook.

More local law and enforcement was great and also provided lots of interaction with the team members.

Less unsub is my runner-up wish, and giving the amount of screen dedicated to unsubs last season, it is perfectly possible that that may come true.

I want more suspense.

I want to be surprised.

I want Garcia to act like an adult.

I want JJ back into her flashy pentagon work

But I am aware that I may be asking too much.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

One of the things I find so interesting, if that's even the correct word to use, about this "did Erica lie or didn't she" business is that it seems to violate some sort of etiquette if you make an accusation of it without being able to prove it, and that it will theoretically almost insure that no one will listen to your other suggestions. Conversely, apparently there doesn't have to be proof that she didn't lie, but even though it can't be proven that she didn't, you're still not supposed to accuse her of it because you can't prove it. Whut? I'm usually a firm believer in "innocent until proven guilty", but the fact is, Erica did say that 200 marked an end, so I don't know what to call the existence of the episode The Forever People. I'm not a big fan of Catch-22s. If X is X, then I don't see how Y isn't Y.

 

 

I'm not sure that they would consider us qualified to tell them what they are doing wrong.

 

I'm sure they take some fan opinion under consideration to a small degree, but if one person (or 5 or 10) says something, especially if it's delivered with venom (goes back to what JustMyOpinion was saying), I would imagine they'd be far more apt to ignore it than give it any weight.   

 

As for this, to echo what SSAHotchner says, the Facebook/Twitter crowd seems to be the one that brought us "Reed" and "Hodge", so if they're the ones who are qualified to have their feedback heard, then I don't know what to think. If they're not even paying enough attention to know that it's Reid and Hotch, are they really fans of the show? And speaking for myself, I feel like I express myself in a polite enough manner most of the time, and if people hear "venom", then I can almost guarantee that that isn't my intention. What I'm not going to do is say that I think something is good when I don't think it is just on the off chance that the people responsible will be more receptive to hearing criticism at some later unspecified point. Some of ya'll might not believe it, but this pretty much is my inside voice. I don't see why I should have to sugar-coat what I think so as to make my opinions worth hearing. :-)

[threebluestars]

NCIS this past season had a lot more of Abby acting more adult and I liked it a lot and I would LOVE IT if Garcia went that route too. You can be sunshiney and squicked out about the job your friends do and fangirl excited over things, but you can also be professional in a working environment!

[Saje]

Yes, cobaltstargazer, but there isn't any need to defend yourself. You can say most whatever you like, isn't that so? Whether it all matters (to the show) in the larger scope is what I wonder. 

 

And for those that keep saying Erica lied about 200, or The Forever People, or whichever... when you consider when 200 was, then months and months later here comes The Forever People after the huge outcry on fb, twitter and especially tumblr that they glossed over JJ's PSD (I can't believe that those of you so in the know didn't notice that outcry - I even noticed it and this was before I even became obsessed with MGG and the show)? Do you honestly think that Erica deliberately told a blatant lie about that being the end of it, at the time she told it? The way I see it, she had no idea that people weren't going to accept JJ just going out to a bar and that be the end of it for her. Having no idea, then scrambling to come up with a way to address it, is not a "lie".

 

Inept, yes. Still not a lie. 

 

The way I see it - and I'm sure some of you will disagree and that's cool - is that Erica isn't a liar at all. I think she's inept, and too far removed from the core fan base and origins of the show. She's on an isolated track now, and the numbers show she's doing well so she's going to keep doing it, and she's going to keep being lauded by the brass for her ineptitude. I don't think she's listened to the core fan base for a while now (if ever), maybe she's even been shielded from the most considered remarks and opinions and only fed the whiz bang comments to bolster whatever it is the network wants her to keep doing.

 

It's been pointed out to me that there have been moments recently that were specifically included for long-time fans. Things like Reid's car, and the chess set he played with Gideon. Like the Baby Star book, like the "...the abyss" quote, the continuity with characters like Anderson, and Haley's sister. These are nice things, but I don't think those are the changes or inclusions most early fans want. They want stories the way they used to be told, not bits of those stories.

 

So to me it looks like sometimes they try, but the changes they really need to make to please the old time fans are too sweeping in scope. I just don't see them going back there, as much as some of us wish they would. They've crossed the Rubicon.   

[Old Dog]

 

So to me it looks like sometimes they try, but the changes they really need to make to please the old time fans are too sweeping in scope. I just don't see them going back there, as much as some of us wish they would. They've crossed the Rubicon.   

Sadly I think you are right. I think for the best part of the last few years I've been watching solely to see how beautiful MGG looks and they seem to be catering for the newbies who want action and romance. But then occasionally we get a flash of old time magic - like Mr Scratch this last season - and it's enough to keep me watching in case we get another glimpse of what I perceive to be the "real" Criminal Minds.

[Danielg342]

I think we're being a bit pedantic over whether or not Erica Messer is “lying”. Sure, in the technical, formal sense of the word there's no proof but in an informal sense, where it's closer to meaning simply “misled”, I think it's on point, such as the “team member dying” being Strauss.

As for what I want to see in Season 11:

-Less victims being “pawns” and more attempts at making them “human”.

-No more political correctness. You're not proving any point by having ten cases in a row involve simply male victims.

-Better, more effective use of LEOs.

-Better defined cases where it's evident that the team needed to be there and not the local cops.

-Cases that are more plausible and well-thought out. No more episodes done simply because “they are cool”.

-More equal distribution and contribution from the team. No one should ever “dominate”.

-More stuff like Savannah treating Meg. The main characters' lives do not exist in a vacuum and if the team is as much a “family” as the show suggests, they'd interact more.

I'll think of more but I'm at work so I can't provide too much now.

[Russet29]

Couldn't agree more with you Daniel about what I want to see in season 11. Part of me thinks we'd be lucky if we see just one of those changes. Although for some reason I'm feeling oddly optimistic about next season. I certainly don't think we're going to get early seasons CM but I can't help but get the feeling EM is kind of picking up on what some of us want. I think the fact that they're not replacing JLH with another regular character is a good sign. Finally that revolving door can stop and the writers can hopefully refine their focus back onto the core 6. And let me say again how much I liked Kate and JLH. I feel the need to mention this every time I talk about the actress or the character to prevent a certain poster from twisting my words.

[thewhiteowl]

Enough with the did she lie or mislead or just fricking change her damn mind.  It happened, it's done. Please move on.

 

 It's off topic.

[Danielg342]

I'm not thewhiteowl or a mod, but from my vantage point, we've spent a page and a half arguing about whether or not Erica Messer lied- which isn't what this thread is for (I would think “The Bullpen” might be better for that). Not only that, but I also feel like the discussion just isn't going anywhere, because it's just destined to go in circles (hence why I called it “pedantic”). Frankly, I think we're all pretty clear that we don't trust the words that come out of Erica Messer's mouth- arguing over the finer details of that is making my head spin.

Besides, I really want to discuss Season 11, and we've hardly scratched the surface of that.

In the spirit of bringing this discussion back on track, would anyone be in favour of seeing “Beyond Borders” crossovers (or having some of the characters make cameos)?

[Saje]

I'm not thewhiteowl or a mod, but from my vantage point, we've spent a page and a half arguing about whether or not Erica Messer lied- which isn't what this thread is for (I would think “The Bullpen” might be better for that). Not only that, but I also feel like the discussion just isn't going anywhere, because it's just destined to go in circles (hence why I called it “pedantic”). 

 

You feel like the discussion wasn't going anywhere? Like dozens of other pedantic or repetitive discussions that happen to occur ("JJ SUCKS!!11!!"), but since you don't like this one it shouldn't continue? I'm in agreement that this is better served in The Bullpen, but it just so happened to have landed here. Maybe the mods could move it over there instead of forcing us to end it. 

[Russet29]

You feel like the discussion wasn't going anywhere? Like dozens of other pedantic or repetitive discussions that happen to occur ("JJ SUCKS!!11!!"), but since you don't like this one it shouldn't continue? I'm in agreement that this is better served in The Bullpen, but it just so happened to have landed here. Maybe the mods could move it over there instead of forcing us to end it. 

You beat me to the punch Saje. While I agree this conversation is much better suited for The Bullpen, there's no denying that most of the discussions on this board are circular. They generally come back to: JJ sucks, EM sucks, or MGG/Reid is amazing.

 

I'm not thewhiteowl or a mod, but from my vantage point, we've spent a page and a half arguing about whether or not Erica Messer lied- which isn't what this thread is for (I would think “The Bullpen” might be better for that). Not only that, but I also feel like the discussion just isn't going anywhere, because it's just destined to go in circles (hence why I called it “pedantic”). Frankly, I think we're all pretty clear that we don't trust the words that come out of Erica Messer's mouth- arguing over the finer details of that is making my head spin.

Besides, I really want to discuss Season 11, and we've hardly scratched the surface of that.

In the spirit of bringing this discussion back on track, would anyone be in favour of seeing “Beyond Borders” crossovers (or having some of the characters make cameos)?

I've learned at this point not to put too much stock into what any show runners say. I know the people on this board think EM is the as bad as it gets, but it's not. I know that's kind of a crappy way of being optimistic but there it is.

 

With regards to a potential crossover, I say no. If BB goes beyond the first season then maybe, but let the spinoff stand on its own and prove itself first. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing some of the characters make cameos, however. I hate the Chicago shows over on NBC but the one thing I do enjoy is seeing how seamless the cameos are. It's clear those characters exist in the same world and live in the same city. My only concern is that it wouldn't feel effortless, so to speak. That these characters from BB will be awkwardly forced into scenes on the mothership or vice versa.

[missmycat]

I'm not thewhiteowl or a mod, but from my vantage point, we've spent a page and a half arguing about whether or not Erica Messer lied- which isn't what this thread is for (I would think “The Bullpen” might be better for that). Not only that, but I also feel like the discussion just isn't going anywhere, because it's just destined to go in circles (hence why I called it “pedantic”). Frankly, I think we're all pretty clear that we don't trust the words that come out of Erica Messer's mouth- arguing over the finer details of that is making my head spin.

Besides, I really want to discuss Season 11, and we've hardly scratched the surface of that.

In the spirit of bringing this discussion back on track, would anyone be in favour of seeing “Beyond Borders” crossovers (or having some of the characters make cameos)?

I would love for JJ to make a permanent crossover. Sorry I couldn't resist. Daniel I am not so sure about it. Simply because of the way Messer had our team fawning over that team. My fear is there would be more of the same if there was to be an other crossover. It is the reason that part of me is now happy, after having giving it some thought, that Reid wasn't used more in that episode. I am just so thankful that Reid didn't get to interact with Monty, because no doubt Messer probably would have had Reid idolizing and being in complete awe of Monty. And boy would that have ever pissed me off big time.

[thewhiteowl]

Could have moved them, choose not to do so. If you must continue to flog the dead beast, do so in the proper thread.

 

Questioning Mod decisions In the thread will get you a warn, PM me if you have a question or comment.

[Danielg342]

You feel like the discussion wasn't going anywhere? Like dozens of other pedantic or repetitive discussions that happen to occur ("JJ SUCKS!!11!!"), but since you don't like this one it shouldn't continue? I'm in agreement that this is better served in The Bullpen, but it just so happened to have landed here. Maybe the mods could move it over there instead of forcing us to end it.

I apologize for upsetting you (and anyone else for that matter). For the record, I never reported the conversation- I merely tried to get this thread back on topic. Furthermore, I only pointed out my own annoyance with the discussion as a means of perhaps clarifying where thewhiteowl was coming from. Yeah, it bugs me in other threads too, but I don't say anything there because it's not my place to. I only said something here- in more direct terms- because, after the fact, thewhiteowl acknowledged what I had already thought.

Regardless, I really don't want to make too much of this. I'm sorry I overstepped my bounds and I'll be more respectful next time.

[Danielg342]

Regarding the crossover, I think I'd like to see Garrett back, because he and Rossi seemed to have a natural bond. Plus, I'd love it if a case hinged on figuring out the UnSub's cultural mannerisms- even so much as a nod to the “other team” drives home the fact that the BAU doesn't work in a vacuum.

Also, maybe at some point the CSI:Cyber guys could make an appearance, just so Reid can note how eeriely familiar Elijah Mundo is.

[secnarf]

My wish list for season 11:
-No replacement for Kate

-Less unsub

-More memorable cases/victims - I feel like, for all the attention the unsubs are getting, they're not really that memorable. There are some cases from earlier seasons that really stick with me years later, because they were so compelling, and I would like more like that. Memorable doesn't necessarily mean creepy, either.

-Better JJ - not necessarily less JJ, just more like JJ 1.0 - maybe after she has her second kid she can decide she wants to go back to media liaison (as if that would ever actually happen).

-More profiling and less magical databases

-More cohesive writing, so that characters actually have development that goes beyond the end of the episode.

-Distinct characters - right now, they're all pretty interchangeable, whereas they each used to have something unique to bring to the team.

[Danielg342]

Also for this season:

After an incident that occurred near where I live, I'd love to see a case that involves “swatting”:

http://globalnews.ca/news/2015210/innocent-man-has-home-raided-after-swatting-prank-in-richmond-hill/

Could you imagine the UnSub being one step ahead of the BAU by having a bad address forcing the BAU to enter the wrong house- and deal with its frightened inhabitants?

[normasm]

Yes, cobaltstargazer, but there isn't any need to defend yourself. You can say most whatever you like, isn't that so? Whether it all matters (to the show) in the larger scope is what I wonder. 

 

And for those that keep saying Erica lied about 200, or The Forever People, or whichever... when you consider when 200 was, then months and months later here comes The Forever People after the huge outcry on fb, twitter and especially tumblr that they glossed over JJ's PSD (I can't believe that those of you so in the know didn't notice that outcry - I even noticed it and this was before I even became obsessed with MGG and the show)? Do you honestly think that Erica deliberately told a blatant lie about that being the end of it, at the time she told it? The way I see it, she had no idea that people weren't going to accept JJ just going out to a bar and that be the end of it for her. Having no idea, then scrambling to come up with a way to address it, is not a "lie".

 

Inept, yes. Still not a lie. 

 

The way I see it - and I'm sure some of you will disagree and that's cool - is that Erica isn't a liar at all. I think she's inept, and too far removed from the core fan base and origins of the show. She's on an isolated track now, and the numbers show she's doing well so she's going to keep doing it, and she's going to keep being lauded by the brass for her ineptitude. I don't think she's listened to the core fan base for a while now (if ever), maybe she's even been shielded from the most considered remarks and opinions and only fed the whiz bang comments to bolster whatever it is the network wants her to keep doing.

 

It's been pointed out to me that there have been moments recently that were specifically included for long-time fans. Things like Reid's car, and the chess set he played with Gideon. Like the Baby Star book, like the "...the abyss" quote, the continuity with characters like Anderson, and Haley's sister. These are nice things, but I don't think those are the changes or inclusions most early fans want. They want stories the way they used to be told, not bits of those stories.

 

So to me it looks like sometimes they try, but the changes they really need to make to please the old time fans are too sweeping in scope. I just don't see them going back there, as much as some of us wish they would. They've crossed the Rubicon.   

You've said this very well, oh saje one...

[secnarf]

Also for this season:

After an incident that occurred near where I live, I'd love to see a case that involves “swatting”:

http://globalnews.ca/news/2015210/innocent-man-has-home-raided-after-swatting-prank-in-richmond-hill/

Could you imagine the UnSub being one step ahead of the BAU by having a bad address forcing the BAU to enter the wrong house- and deal with its frightened inhabitants?

You must live very close to me!

I would really like if Garcia's magical computer somehow leads them to the wrong address.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

So far, I only have two specific "wants" for the upcoming season:

 

For the writers to deal with Hotch's trauma in Mr. Scratch. Even if its just a few mentions that he's seeing a counselor about it, just something.

 

I want Reid to make a friend outside of work. It doesn't have to be a potential romance, although that would be nice, but for him to just have some kind of life outside of the job. Everyone else has one, he should have one too.

[normasm]

I want this to be the year of the Big Reality Check.

 

I want there to be a story about domestic terrorism that links back to expertise that the BAU has somehow. Agent Loker works with CT, and it could be hinted that she and Reid are friends with an off-work friendship. I'd also like for Reid to interact with a child or children in a way that changes his life for the better. I want the writers to write him smart and compassionate, like he should be.

 

I want Hotch to feel the aftershocks of the earthquake in Mr. Scratch, to the point that he really has to rely on the team to help him through. I think maybe it would be good character development for him if he acknowledged that he's no longer an emotionless concrete wall, that he's very vulnerable, and in need of his friends; not in a wimpy way, just in a realistic way.

 

I'd love it if JJ would ratchet back her field involvement in favor of being more related to media and family as she used to. Her being a (slightly) older mother might give her a big reality check as to what she should do - as opposed to what she can do - as good as the boys.

 

I want them to not replace Kate. I want others (like Andi Swan or Jordan Todd) to come in for 2 to 3 episodes to cover for JJ, and each person will bring a different expertise or flavor, as Jordan did in season 4.

 

I want Rossi to face reality and find a semi-retired position where he deals with the media (especially if they won't entertain making JJ ratchet back), I just think he would be wonderful as the Face of the BAU/FBI, and he's too old to be out there in the field.

 

If Morgan is still there, i want him to step up and help Hotch out in the fallout I hope there will be from Mr. Scratch. Morgan is a natural leader, or he was in former years. I'd also like to see him more involved as a friend to Reid, and less involved as a sexual harassment foil for Garcia.

 

And I want Garcia to grow the frick up. And not have the answers come from her computer. She is not a genius...

 

Less unsub. More profiling.

[missmycat]

Oh drat. Remember how excited some of us were because something John Hatchit tweeted awhile back made it sound like Janine was getting ready to part ways with the show. Well I just saw a twitter conversation Harry Bring had with someone which made it sound like her leaving isn't such a sure thing after all.

Edited May 29, 2015 by missmycat

[ForeverAlone]

I read that convo, and the only thing he actually CONFIRMED was Breen and Bruce returning. I think once the writers start back up again next week, we will hear a more official response on who is on the writing staff. 

[Guesswht]

Yeah, ok season 10 was the worst season ever, but it had a superb episode. It was a really short PTSD (-.-) but AJ acted the heck out of it.

No one was talking about this? Sorry...

 

I really want to see how the miscarriage affects JJ with this pregnancy. it would make such a good plot for her! (and if s10 and the new "'team member"' let JJ deal with PTSD the season would've been better) I definitely wish that we had gotten a follow up for JJ's PTSD instead of just one episode and then she's back to normal.

I've said this so many times but i really wish that the season 10 finale was about the real team. Yeah, i know... they decided to give JJ and Reid 10 seconds at the end of the episode, i should be happy.

 

I hope that s11 let JJ deal with her miscarriage and PTSD during her pregnancy.

I hope we get more Reid now that they don't have to write srotylines for a failed, show ruiner new comer.

I want Hotch to be extremely nice or hug someone (...) in one episode , because it's laughable in a sad way what they write in the finale.

Do something with Mr. Scratch.

 

 

 

If Shemar or someone else wants to leave after s11 ...

..just kill him/her. The show needs drama and i want to see the team being devastated because of the death of a team member. It would show how close they are.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Guesswht

[missmycat]

IMO The Forever People was one of the worse episodes of season 10. And I honestly do not relish the idea of JJ getting yet another season to deal with it.But she probably will since she is Messer's "GOLDEN GIRL"

 

What I want is some acknowledgement of guilt on JJ's part over the choices she made that  played a part in that tragic miscarriage she suffered, but I wouldn't even bet less than a nickel that it would ever come to pass.

[Old Dog]

IMO The Forever People was one of the worse episodes of season 10. And I honestly do not relish the idea of JJ getting yet another season to deal with it.But she probably will since she is Messer's "GOLDEN GIRL"

 

Agreed 100%. I just hope the whole 200/Forever People debacle is over and done with for good this time. I'm so looking forward to having a break from the omnipresent JJ while she is on maternity leave.

I hope for the sake of continuity they at least mention that Kate's new baby is doing well. I will miss Kate but I hope they use the start of the season to  put the focus on the rest of the team and don't make it all about the unsubs or the guest stars covering for JJ.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Old Dog

[Guesswht]

I'll throw something at my tv if they mention Kate. I'm already not excited for season 12 (most people have the same opinion as me (on twitter) so hopefully they listen and don't let her come back...*prayers*)

 

But I'm excited for season 11. It would be amazing to see THE TEAM (actually FAMILY) again after the awful season 10 was wasted on someone else. I hope that they're waiting with the Mr Scratch storyline until JJ comes back (if they're planning to do something with that (THEY BETTER...)) I know .. everyone hates JJ here, but it was already unfair that the whole team got shot in Hotch's hallucination except JJ. It's like she's not important to Hotch. Come on .. she's been here for 10+years, she means so much to him (and to everyone else).

[Droogie]

Wow.