Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

[Bethany]

Christmas planning with little kids - so the big reveillon and Christmas day for my son's family with the in-laws has now been cancelled.  Their daughter was up all night vomiting uproariously.  Probably just a matter of time before their son gets in.  So all the angst about trying to please all side of the family have gone for nought.

Poor kids!  My grandson was so upset -  "will  Santa still come if we're sick?"  We reassured him that Santa was magic and I sent him the link to the Norad tracker.  He phoned me, very excited "I KNEW Rudolph was real!!"

 

[oliviabenson]

26 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Christmas planning with little kids - so the big reveillon and Christmas day for my son's family with the in-laws has now been cancelled.  Their daughter was up all night vomiting uproariously.  Probably just a matter of time before their son gets in.  So all the angst about trying to please all side of the family have gone for nought.

Poor kids!  My grandson was so upset -  "will  Santa still come if we're sick?"  We reassured him that Santa was magic and I sent him the link to the Norad tracker.  He phoned me, very excited "I KNEW Rudolph was real!!"

 

That’s so adorable and precious 

[Bethany]

9 hours ago, oliviabenson said:

That’s so adorable and precious 

I have had no real Christmas spirit this year at all but I have to say this really helped make me feel better!

[oliviabenson]

21 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

I have had no real Christmas spirit this year at all but I have to say this really helped make me feel better!

I have no holiday cheer/spirit either. Eh nothing I can do.

[Cloud9Shopper]

A couple days after I got laid off earlier this month, my mom messaged me a Facebook image that said (paraphrased) this is a reminder that you don’t have to do anything over the holidays that makes you stressed out or upset. My mom can sometimes come off as too involved in my life but she was right on that account, and it helped me realize even tonight that I can skip seeing my dad’s family on Christmas Day and while it will feel weird to say sorry I’m not coming; let’s exchange gifts another way! I know I need it. 

I decided to skip that gathering because I spend Thanksgiving Day with them and have dinner and I go to midnight Mass at church since I’m in the choir and that’s when we sing. I know I won’t go to bed until after 1 and maybe closer to 2, and it’s too much to attend three family things in one day. So I may as well cut the one that starts the earliest and has the most attendance pressure to it. I know at the end of the day I will be happier by starting family festivities at 2:30 pm (when my mom’s family gathers on Christmas Day) instead of noonish after a post 1 am bedtime.

If my dad’s family doesn’t like it and wants to pout and get offended, then so be it. They can change their celebration to another day that week or if they are deadset on Christmas Day, they can accept that in the future I’ll be there on Thanksgiving but not for Christmas. 

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

A couple days after I got laid off earlier this month, my mom messaged me a Facebook image that said (paraphrased) this is a reminder that you don’t have to do anything over the holidays that makes you stressed out or upset. My mom can sometimes come off as too involved in my life but she was right on that account, and it helped me realize even tonight that I can skip seeing my dad’s family on Christmas Day and while it will feel weird to say sorry I’m not coming; let’s exchange gifts another way! I know I need it. 

I decided to skip that gathering because I spend Thanksgiving Day with them and have dinner and I go to midnight Mass at church since I’m in the choir and that’s when we sing. I know I won’t go to bed until after 1 and maybe closer to 2, and it’s too much to attend three family things in one day. So I may as well cut the one that starts the earliest and has the most attendance pressure to it. I know at the end of the day I will be happier by starting family festivities at 2:30 pm (when my mom’s family gathers on Christmas Day) instead of noonish after a post 1 am bedtime.

If my dad’s family doesn’t like it and wants to pout and get offended, then so be it. They can change their celebration to another day that week or if they are deadset on Christmas Day, they can accept that in the future I’ll be there on Thanksgiving but not for Christmas. 

Good for you!

[Cloud9Shopper]

My mom is trying to push me right now into going to my aunt’s (on my dad’s side of the family) and giving me the “think of your grandparents” and “you’re going to get a wake-up call” lectures. I was perfectly happy until she started messaging me to make sure I was giving my 30-year-old brother a ride to the gathering on her side of the family. When I told her I was going to minimize my time with my dad’s family that’s when she burst out the lectures. My parents have been divorced since I was a kid so she’s not going to his sister’s house anyway. 

I will end up going because someone always has something to say and scream and pout. I hate that I can’t set any boundaries whatsoever without the guilt trip. I was so confident until my mom strong armed me and now I am on the brink of tears. I wish my grandparents were dead because then I wouldn’t get this lecture anymore. My mom says this all to me yet when she saw her nephew/one of my cousins last night she said oh wow Nephew it’s been how long?! So not like she faithfully keeps in touch with every member of the family every Christmas either. And it’s OK for her to relax every Christmas morning with a mimosa and brunch but not for me.

(For the record I got my driver’s license late too but at least I learned! My brother never did learn and now lives in NYC so we’re driving him everywhere when he comes in.) 

 

[theredhead77]

6 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I hate that I can’t set any boundaries whatsoever without the guilt trip.

Part of setting boundaries is being prepared to ignore the guilt trip.
No is a complete answer. "No mom, I will not be driving brother to xyz event. He's x years old, he can take an Uber if he wants to go" is an answer with a solution.

I got strongarmed into going to my cousins wedding earlier this year by my mom and my cousin's dad. It was "so important" for him to have family there and my mom and I are the only family. Well when my mom turned 80 this year I invited him and his wife to her dinner, they are our only local family and he had a slew of excuses why he couldn't go, including he didn't want to do the drive.

Never mind I flew across the country and then drove 2 hours to this wedding so we could attend and basically be on our own for, not included in any photos, or anything, just for him. But he didn't want to drive 2 hours for this milestone event. 

I never told my mom I invited them but I decided then and there that I will never do anything for him ever again. We're only family when it's important to him.

Boundaries. Set them. Embrace them. Save yourself future headache and heartbreak.

Edited December 25, 2022 by theredhead77

[Mondrianyone]

16 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I wish my grandparents were dead because then I wouldn’t get this lecture anymore.

Really?

[CrazyInAlabama]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

My mom is trying to push me right now into going to my aunt’s (on my dad’s side of the family) and giving me the “think of your grandparents” and “you’re going to get a wake-up call” lectures. 

 

My mother pulled the "your grandmother's old and probably won't live much longer" my whole life.  Even though when my mother left home, she was disowned by her mother.   Grandmother never cared about me or my siblings, just the aunt and her kids that kissed grandma's butt.     

By the time grandmother (she was awful, racist, homophobe, and hated every one who didn't belong to her fundie sect) died when I was 15, I didn't care.   I was upset when our dog died, but not when grandma finally died.   

 Not caring when despicable people go bye-bye isn't wrong.   Guilting kids to put up with bullying, and hatred from family just because they're blood relatives, is wrong.   

My rule is don't spend your life trying to get people to care about you who never will. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[supposebly]

I find all what the guilt-tripping accomplishes is exactly that. You can't distinguish between actually liking your relatives and seeing them because, well, they're relatives. 

I moved to another continent, so the only time my mother guit-trips me into seeing some aunt that I don't like is when I visit. The good news is, she doesn't like her sister much anymore, so that has toned down.

@Cloud9Shopper, why don't you tell your mother you will see your grandparents some other time. When there aren't so many people around and you can actually spend some time with them. If that doesn't shut her up, just don't go without any more discussion.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

My mother pulled the "your grandmother's old and probably won't live much longer" my whole life.  Even though when my mother left home, she was disowned by her mother.   Grandmother never cared about me or my siblings, just the aunt and her kids that kissed grandma's butt.     

By the time grandmother (she was awful, racist, homophobe, and hated every one who a didn't belong to her fundie sect) died when I was 15, I didn't care.   I was upset when our dog died, but not when grandma finally died.   

 Not caring when despicable people go bye-bye isn't wrong.   Guilting kids to put up with bullying, and hatred from family just because they're blood relatives, is wrong.   

My rule is don't spend your life trying to get people to care about you who never will. 

Problem is, in some cultures, this would be considered disrespectful.  You have to "respect" elders, even if they give you a hard time/don't respect YOU for YOU.  Seriously, the only way to avoid some family situations is to move far, far away.  Like the other side of the country far.

[theredhead77]

18 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Problem is, in some cultures, this would be considered disrespectful.  You have to "respect" elders, even if they give you a hard time/don't respect YOU for YOU.  Seriously, the only way to avoid some family situations is to move far, far away.  Like the other side of the country far.

Then be labeled disrespectful. You aren't required to abide by "cultural norms" (and this particular one is in all cultures). You can't be grounded, you aren't going to be hauled off to jail for disrespectful adult children, there is no "permanent record".

Literally nothing but inappropriate parental guilt is going to happen to you if you choose to define boundaries and stand up for your best interests.

[PRgal]

32 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Then be labeled disrespectful. You aren't required to abide by "cultural norms" (and this particular one is in all cultures). You can't be grounded, you aren't going to be hauled off to jail for disrespectful adult children, there is no "permanent record".

Literally nothing but inappropriate parental guilt is going to happen to you if you choose to define boundaries and stand up for your best interests.

Try explaining that one to an Asian parent, even as an adult. Lecture awaits (sometimes it has to do with you speaking rudely.  Why do people speak “rudely?”  Because there’s a linguistic challenge - you speak your ancestral language rather poorly and they don’t speak/understand English well).  You really have no choice but to move. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by PRgal

[theredhead77]

16 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Try explaining that one to an Asian parent, even as an adult. Lecture awaits (sometimes it has to do with you speaking rudely.  Why do people speak “rudely?”  Because there’s a linguistic challenge - you speak your ancestral language rather poorly and they don’t speak/understand English well).  You really have no choice but to move. 

Another perk of being an adult is that you don't have to explain yourself, to anyone. I know I keep saying it but it's not just Asian cultures that deal with this. It's not. Everyone here, including myself, who is giving you advise, has learned to navigate similar issues within their own cultures.

It's been said before and I'll say it again: it's up to you (and @Cloud9Shopper) and all adults to define the relationship they want with their parents. Full stop.

If you want to break the cycle for your son, start now. Otherwise you're going to have an extremely unhealthy relationship with him, or his in-laws, if he marries into a family thinking this dynamic is normal, expected, or healthy.

As an adult he may choose to break the cycle and go no-contact instead of dealing with an emotionally manipulative family dynamic.

Every generation is getting healthier, getting better about defining their boundaries and taking care of their mental health. The generations behind them (including mine, GenX) need to catch up and take some lessons from the "youngins" on this. They are 100% right here.

Edited December 25, 2022 by theredhead77

[Bethany]

Assuming you have had a good relationship with your elderly relatives of course telling someone that their grandparents will not always be around and maybe they should make time to visit isn't exactly guilt tripping IMO.  It's stating the obvious.  

[theredhead77]

7 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

Assuming you have had a good relationship with your elderly relatives of course telling someone that their grandparents will not always be around and maybe they should make time to visit isn't exactly guilt tripping IMO.  It's stating the obvious.  

True; however, in the situation @Cloud9Shopperlaid out it doesn't sound like this family dynamic is healthy, she already decided she didn't want to deal with it today and that is her decision (as an adult) to make and it's her regrets to have, if she has any in the future. 

[Leeds]

5 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

 

I will end up going because someone always has something to say and scream and pout. I hate that I can’t set any boundaries whatsoever without the guilt trip. I was so confident until my mom strong armed me and now I am on the brink of tears. I wish my grandparents were dead because then I wouldn’t get this lecture anymore. My mom says this all to me yet when she saw her nephew/one of my cousins last night she said oh wow Nephew it’s been how long?! So not like she faithfully keeps in touch with every member of the family every Christmas either. And it’s OK for her to relax every Christmas morning with a mimosa and brunch but not for me.

 

 

Please don't say/think this

[stewedsquash]

@PRgal while I do think every culture has their own child and parent issues I agree with you about the Chinese culture being on a different harder to crack level. I enjoy your snippets of life that you share.

[Leeds]

5 hours ago, stewedsquash said:

@PRgal while I do think every culture has their own child and parent issues I agree with you about the Chinese culture being on a different harder to crack level.

I know a few Jews and Catholics who would disagree with this . . . .

[theredhead77]

4 minutes ago, Leeds said:

I know a few Jews and Catholics who would disagree with this . . . .

Pick me! Me! Pick me! Daughter of a Jewish mother and emotionally manipulative father here. I'm finally in a decent place with my parents but many of you will remember the struggles I shared right after I moved. I set clearly defined boundaries and have stuck to them. I will not tolerate being treated as a house-elf or emotionally manipulated by the underlying threat of my dad having a tantrum. As a result, they have made changes. Things are far from perfect, but they are better than they were. 

I'll be moving a lot closer soon and while I'll be able to visit more often, my tolerance for my dads nonsense will be even less. I'll literally just pack up my stuff and make the 4 hour drive home instead of shutting myself in my [old] room or leaving to "run errands".

[stewedsquash]

2 hours ago, Leeds said:

I know a few Jews and Catholics who would disagree with this . . . .

Oh for sure. Each culture has issues. I think there is a distinct extra layer when it comes to Asian cultures. It doesn’t make other cultures less oppressive. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by stewedsquash

[JustHereForFood]

On 12/5/2022 at 7:07 PM, BexKeps said:

I feel your pain, albeit in a slightly different context. My oldest daughter was given a nickname in high school based on her initials, and while I don't mind the nickname and don't care that her husband and 90% of her friends call her that name, I still refer to her by her given name. Her husband made a point to tell me one day that I am the ONLY one who refers to her that way as if that was a bad thing. I reminded him that I was there when she was born, back labor and all, and the name I put on her birth certificate is the name I will continue to use. 

Did she tell you directly that she would prefer if you used the nickname or that she dislikes being called by her given name? Because if she did, it is quite rude to dismiss such request, even for a parent. People can have various reasons why they hate their names that have nothing to do with the fact that it was chosen by their parents and having someone close who disrespects one's preference in something so personal can really hurt.

[Jane Tuesday]

11 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

Did she tell you directly that she would prefer if you used the nickname or that she dislikes being called by her given name? Because if she did, it is quite rude to dismiss such request, even for a parent. People can have various reasons why they hate their names that have nothing to do with the fact that it was chosen by their parents and having someone close who disrespects one's preference in something so personal can really hurt.

It sounds like the daughter didn't say anything at all... the daughter's husband did.  And he didn't say, "she doesn't want you to use that name," he said, "you're the only one who uses it."  Which, I guess it's possible she told him to say something?  But I personally wouldn't change unless the daughter asked me herself.

My adult niece has a name that commonly has two shortened versions - one she used to use but now she hates, and one she's fine with.  Her grandmother (on her other side) uses the one she hates.  She has never told her grandmother that she doesn't want to be called that version anymore, so while I can't stand the woman for other reasons, I can't fault her in this case.  If it's important enough to make you unhappy, it's important enough to speak up.

[Bethany]

With names lots of times the older family member does get special dispensation.  I have a nephew who prefers to be called James now that he's an adult but I am allowed to call him Jamie.  It's a special thing between the two of us.  He gets a kick out of humouring me and I get to pretend he's still that chubby cheeked 4 yr old who kept my house free of 'bad guys' with his super soaker.

[Scarlett45]

On 12/25/2022 at 1:55 PM, PRgal said:

Problem is, in some cultures, this would be considered disrespectful.  You have to "respect" elders, even if they give you a hard time/don't respect YOU for YOU.  Seriously, the only way to avoid some family situations is to move far, far away.  Like the other side of the country far.

I understand how you feel @PRgal. In ADOS families “I was taught to respect my elders.” (In a calm tone) is code for “go fuck your self.” RIGHT before you get blocked. BEEN THERE. 🥺

 

I haven’t had to move to the other side of the country, Chicago is big enough that opposite sides solves this problem. 

[PRgal]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I understand how you feel @PRgal. In ADOS families “I was taught to respect my elders.” (In a calm tone) is code for “go fuck your self.” RIGHT before you get blocked. BEEN THERE. 🥺

 

I haven’t had to move to the other side of the country, Chicago is big enough that opposite sides solves this problem. 

Pretty much it. 

By the way, I had to look up ADOS (and I hope I got the right ADOS - American Descendants of Slavery?).

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

Pretty much it. 

By the way, I had to look up ADOS (and I hope I got the right ADOS - American Descendants of Slavery?).

Yup that’s right. 
 

I find when you keep a calm tone and bring out the “I was taught to respect my elders.” You’re always on the high road and people realize what a little temper tantrum they are having. I was taught to respect my elders but there’s a way people in my life will speak to me- I use contraceptives effectively so that means anything I choose to give to you is a GIFT. A GIFT. 

And it’s kind of funny because when the story goes around the family and the “I was taught to respect my elders” gets pulled out people go “Damn. That was cold.”🤣. 

[RealHousewife]

I’m envious of one big, happy family folks. Not sure what percentage of people that even applies to, but holidays make me wish I had that more than ever.

Some issues I have make being single easier, but sometimes I wish I had my own partner and children, people to love with less drama. 

[PRgal]

15 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

I’m envious of one big, happy family folks. Not sure what percentage of people that even applies to, but holidays make me wish I had that more than ever.

Some issues I have make being single easier, but sometimes I wish I had my own partner and children, people to love with less drama. 

I don't think there's such a thing.  People look at us and think we're happy, but people here, who've read my rants know that it's not as happy as it seems.  I have to admit that my family has it better - much better - than a lot of others though. 

[isalicat]

Happiness never, ever comes from the outside, even if there is lots of joy to be had from family and friends. The most miserable people can have been surrounded by people who love them; and vice versa, the happiest people quite often have spouses, children and siblings that ill treat them. Once you find the abiding peace and quiet satisfaction of a life lived with integrity and purpose, other people can't disturb your equilibrium, even family. Making yourself vulnerable to love (giving and getting) is a good thing as a person, but its not going to be the answer ultimately because all human relationships inevitably end. Get comfortable in your own skin and inside your own mind: there lies the source of real happiness.

[RealHousewife]

4 hours ago, isalicat said:

Happiness never, ever comes from the outside, even if there is lots of joy to be had from family and friends. The most miserable people can have been surrounded by people who love them; and vice versa, the happiest people quite often have spouses, children and siblings that ill treat them. Once you find the abiding peace and quiet satisfaction of a life lived with integrity and purpose, other people can't disturb your equilibrium, even family. Making yourself vulnerable to love (giving and getting) is a good thing as a person, but its not going to be the answer ultimately because all human relationships inevitably end. Get comfortable in your own skin and inside your own mind: there lies the source of real happiness.

You're absolutely right. I know this deep down but needed the reminder, thank you. I already feel better now that Christmas is over and I am finally home. 

[Scarlett45]

On 12/29/2022 at 7:55 PM, RealHousewife said:

You're absolutely right. I know this deep down but needed the reminder, thank you. I already feel better now that Christmas is over and I am finally home. 

Partners and children are nice if someone wants them, but humans are humans. Yes you choose a partner (so that’s controllable to a certain extend) but you don’t choose the adults your children turn out to be. As a non partnered childfree person I always thought a partner and kids was more work than the family I was born into! 🤣
 

Yes, statistically if there are more people in your family it’s more likely you’ll gel personality wise with someone (just odds), but love and emotionally fulfilling relationships take work. The holidays can be hard- I was grieving a lot (missing so many loved ones at the holidays) and my mom ended up in the hospital (she’s home now, thank goodness), so I get it. 
 

I know you know all this, but I wanted you to know we see you and hear you. 

[RealHousewife]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Partners and children are nice if someone wants them, but humans are humans. Yes you choose a partner (so that’s controllable to a certain extend) but you don’t choose the adults your children turn out to be. As a non partnered childfree person I always thought a partner and kids was more work than the family I was born into! 🤣
 

Yes, statistically if there are more people in your family it’s more likely you’ll gel personality wise with someone (just odds), but love and emotionally fulfilling relationships take work. The holidays can be hard- I was grieving a lot (missing so many loved ones at the holidays) and my mom ended up in the hospital (she’s home now, thank goodness), so I get it. 
 

I know you know all this, but I wanted you to know we see you and hear you. 

True. My heart goes out to those married to people they can’t stand and have kids who cause lots of headaches. I’d take being single over that. 

I’m so sorry the holidays were hard for you, but I’m so happy your mother is okay. 

I am taking a break from seeing my sister. Not sure how long it will last, but sweeping stuff under the rug has not worked out. 

Thank you. I really appreciate that. ❤️

[shapeshifter]

My middle, 39-year-old, single daughter with a degree from NYU is badgering me for money.

I am determined to not give in.

She still owes me $1000 that she said she’d pay back 2 weeks after I leant it to her about 4 months ago. 

I was a single mother. Now I’m retired.

 I’ve told her repeatedly that she can live with me, but I can’t afford 2 households. She refuses.

And I’ve been sick all week.

Edited January 5, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Bethany]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

My middle, 39-year-old, single daughter with a degree from NYU is badgering me for money.

I am determined to not give in.

A widowed friend of mine finally had to tell her oldest daughter that not only had the well run dry but that she was out of the will.  She explained to her that this was in fairness to the other kids who had never taken money.   A few months later the daughter showed up with an insurance policy taken out on her mother's life that she wanted mom to sign so that when she died the daughter would get IIRC $100k.  My friend did not sign - talk about the premise of an Agatha Christie novel!

[PRgal]

14 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

My middle, 39-year-old, single daughter with a degree from NYU is badgering me for money.

I am determined to not give in.

She still owes me $1000 that she said she’d pay back 2 weeks after I leant it to her about 4 months ago. 

I was a single mother. Now I’m retired.

 I’ve told her repeatedly that she can live with me, but I can’t afford 2 households. She refuses.

And I’ve been sick all week.

Did she tell you why she needed it?  Is she sick? Is she working?

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Did she tell you why she needed it?  Is she sick? Is she working?

She’s been through a lot of jobs, refusing full time work, and she insists on living in NYC. She’s healthy and intelligent. She likes to party.

A few years ago she was given $100K to quit her apartment so the new landlord could update the building. She went through that money in a year.

I have enough savings to supplement my $16K/yr. Social Security because I have lived on a strict budget and still do.

If I continued to bail her out, I might outlive my savings. If I don’t live as long as my parents, she’d probably inherit another $100K or less, blow it, and be back at square one.

[Mondrianyone]

44 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

My middle, 39-year-old, single daughter with a degree from NYU is badgering me for money.

I am determined to not give in.

Don't.

in fact, I'd just stop entertaining the subject every time it comes up in the future. "No" is a complete sentence.

Why she wants the money is largely irrelevant. She's already proved herself to be a bad loan risk. And she's a middle-aged woman, too old to be demanding money repeatedly from Mom (and Dad, too?). Time for the horror of full-time work.

We have a conversation about life-insurance policies on other people every time they come up on true-crime TV shows, @Elizabeth Anne. I'm amazed the mother had to sign, to be honest. I've been proposing a law making it impossible to take out insurance on anyone without that person's knowledge and consent. It's way too easy to kill someone for money.

'''

[Bethany]

14 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

I'm amazed the mother had to sign, to be honest.

Possibly this is a Canadian thing but you can't take out a life insurance policy here without that person's knowledge and consent.  I think the exception to this is life insurance on your minor children, which is something I know people have done but is something that I've always felt was iffy, at best.

[PRgal]

51 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

She’s been through a lot of jobs, refusing full time work, and she insists on living in NYC. She’s healthy and intelligent. She likes to party.

A few years ago she was given $100K to quit her apartment so the new landlord could update the building. She went through that money in a year.

I have enough savings to supplement my $16K/yr. Social Security because I have lived on a strict budget and still do.

If I continued to bail her out, I might outlive my savings. If I don’t live as long as my parents, she’d probably inherit another $100K or less, blow it, and be back at square one.

Sounds like she might have some mental health issues.  :( If she's in therapy, she might need money to pay if her insurance policy doesn't cover mental health. 

[Jane Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, Elizabeth Anne said:

I think the exception to this is life insurance on your minor children, which is something I know people have done but is something that I've always felt was iffy, at best.

My parents always had small policies on us when we were kids.  Just enough to give us a nice funeral.  They had lost two boys, so they realized that's something to prepare for.  When we became adults, they turned them over to us.  (Whole life is such a horrible investment, but there was a little cash payout.  Like $100.  LOL)

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

Sounds like she might have some mental health issues.  :( If she's in therapy, she might need money to pay if her insurance policy doesn't cover mental health. 

I think you're far too generous, @PRgal.  I think it sounds like she has dealing with reality issues.

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Sounds like she might have some mental health issues.  :( If she's in therapy, she might need money to pay if her insurance policy doesn't cover mental health. 

She refuses psychotherapy. 
Yes. She needs it.

[supposebly]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

She’s been through a lot of jobs, refusing full time work, and she insists on living in NYC. She’s healthy and intelligent. She likes to party.

A few years ago she was given $100K to quit her apartment so the new landlord could update the building. She went through that money in a year.

I don't have children, so I don't really know what it's like to have to say no, but I would tell her that you won't give her money before she pays you back the money she still owes you.

Tell her if she needs money, she can ask her bank for a loan. I'm guessing she might not get one. Time to grow up at 39.

Unfortunately, making it a condition to see a therapist won't work. Therapy doesn't work if you are forced into it.

I'm sorry she comes to you with this crap while you're sick.

[RealHousewife]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

My middle, 39-year-old, single daughter with a degree from NYU is badgering me for money.

I am determined to not give in.

She still owes me $1000 that she said she’d pay back 2 weeks after I leant it to her about 4 months ago. 

I was a single mother. Now I’m retired.

 I’ve told her repeatedly that she can live with me, but I can’t afford 2 households. She refuses.

And I’ve been sick all week.

I'm sorry honey. I hope you feel better soon. You sound like a loving mother.

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

She’s been through a lot of jobs, refusing full time work, and she insists on living in NYC. She’s healthy and intelligent. She likes to party.

A few years ago she was given $100K to quit her apartment so the new landlord could update the building. She went through that money in a year.

I have enough savings to supplement my $16K/yr. Social Security because I have lived on a strict budget and still do.

If I continued to bail her out, I might outlive my savings. If I don’t live as long as my parents, she’d probably inherit another $100K or less, blow it, and be back at square one.

Yikes. I'd definitely be careful baling her out. You have to look out for your future. 

4 hours ago, supposebly said:

I don't have children, so I don't really know what it's like to have to say no, but I would tell her that you won't give her money before she pays you back the money she still owes you.

Tell her if she needs money, she can ask her bank for a loan. I'm guessing she might not get one. Time to grow up at 39.

Unfortunately, making it a condition to see a therapist won't work. Therapy doesn't work if you are forced into it.

I'm sorry she comes to you with this crap while you're sick.

Same. I'm not a parent, so not sure how much my thoughts matter.

If I were one, I would do my best to be generous with whatever I have, but not spoil my kids. If money was tight and they wanted to live with me, totally fine. Heck, even if money weren't tight. If they occasionally needed to be bailed out and I could help, of course. If they needed money for therapy, I'd want to help because I know firsthand how expensive that is. If they were simply irresponsible with money, I'd think they need to learn how to be responsible. Most of us do not have the funds to bankroll anyone else's life. I also think it's important to lean how to budget even if a family does have a ton of $. I have relatives who go through money like crazy because they didn't earn it themselves. 

It can be tricky finding the balance between cutting someone slack due to mental health and overdoing it.

My sister's boyfriend for example still does not have a job. I know he's struggled with mental health for many years, and my heart goes to him for that.  He was really upset when his parents kicked him out. IRC, he was well into his 30s when that happened. I don't know what the right thing to do was. Due to his mental health, it really may not be good for him to live alone. But I think his folks are good people who want him to finally grow up. They've spent a ton of money trying to get him with various therapists and helping bankroll his life. I don't know if they still help him, but now he lives with my sister rent-free. If they go on a trip, my sister will pay for most of the expenses. None of that would bother me if he were truly in between jobs, a stay-at-home dad, something to show he is a worker. I just can't wrap my head around him being unable to find something. There are jobs that are flexible, work from home, part-time hours, etc. It's not like he can't get out of bed. He hangs out with friends, goes to movies, exercises, travels, literally does everything but work. My own mental health has affected me with just about everything-driving, having fun, making friends, dating, pursuing dreams, you name it. But I have always worked or quickly found a job if I were in between jobs. I know our brains may be extremely different, but sometimes I think when there's no one around to constantly run to your rescue, you get that job, learn how to be independent, you learn to budget, you grow up. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by RealHousewife

[EtheltoTillie]

I’m so sorry to hear this @shapeshifter  i feel you are a friend although we haven’t met. I am not a parent but I know parents who have this situation. It’s more common than you would think. Some of these people have enough money to support the child for life. They do this because the child really is incapable of self support. You would not want to see your child suffer but you cannot bankrupt yourself. I don’t have any easy answers. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

It can be tricky finding the balance between cutting someone slack due to mental health and overdoing it.

Especially this👆 when there are finite resources.  
Seeing her fritter away the $100k from the apartment buy-out was a real eye opener. 
I just hope I’m doing the right thing. 
She often remembers past situations in ways not supported by facts so that she is the financial victim, sometimes even making me the villain. 
And whenever she asks for money and I respond with an offer for her to live rent free with me, she says I am insulting her. 
I can’t help worrying about eventual suicide, but I don’t know what to do. 
Her father is similar and has lived with partners who supported him. 
I would accept her doing the same, but that’s never happened.

[EtheltoTillie]

24 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Especially this👆 when there are finite resources.  
Seeing her fritter away the $100k from the apartment buy-out was a real eye opener. 
I just hope I’m doing the right thing. 
She often remembers past situations in ways not supported by facts so that she is the financial victim, sometimes even making me the villain. 
And whenever she asks for money and I respond with an offer for her to live rent free with me, she says I am insulting her. 
I can’t help worrying about eventual suicide, but I don’t know what to do. 
Her father is similar and has lived with partners who supported him. 
I would accept her doing the same, but that’s never happened.

I didn’t want to mention the S word, but since you have I will say that yes it is in the mix, and I see you understand this.  I could recommend an amazing memoir that I recently read that dealt with this as part of the narrative.  The writer was a sibling. It’s called What’s So Funny?, by David Sipress, a New Yorker cartoonist. It was the most compelling book I have read in a long time. Read it if you feel up to it. Your suggestion for your daughter to live with you is a good one, and I know other people who do it that way. The sister in that book sounds very much like your daughter. 

[EtheltoTillie]

@shapeshifterI'm just throwing one more idea out for you, you may want to leave your daughter her inheritance in a spendthrift trust.  I also know people who have done this.  But of course, then someone else has to manage it and her expectations. In one family I know, two brothers will be trustees for the third.  I don't know if your other children are up to that task or willing.  Again, there are no easy answers.  But it can prevent quick losses of the money.

[Bethany]

@shapeshifter, building on @EtheltoTilliesuggestion, what my father has done because he is concerned not that my sister will waste her inheritance but that her daughter will cajole it all out of her (and she would) anyway what he's done is to set up an annuity for her.  So essentially she gets a specific amount every month and can't tap into the principal.