Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[Rumsy4]

She even dredge up the whole story book mess, and she was showing him how to sword fight which is the thing that made him snap.

The only reason Emma dredged it up was so that she could strike the same pose behind Hook, and grab the cutlass from his hand. Hook thought she was trying to butter him up before asking for something. He just didn't realize she had got what she wanted.

Dark Emma set it up as a date on his ship because she thought it would be romantic and she's trying to seduce him to accepting her as she is now.

Well... it was partly that. The reason for choosing the Jolly Roger as the location was because she wanted to know if Rumple had touched anything on the ship when he came to get Milah. Maybe she was hoping that she could find the part of the he had stood on so she wouldn't have to take the whole ship and crush it. The moment she realized the cutlass would do, she immediately brought up their AU moment and took the cutlass. She wasted no time.

[YaddaYadda]

The only reason Emma dredged it up was so that she could strike the same pose behind Hook, and grab the cutlass from his hand. Hook thought she was trying to butter him up before asking for something. He just didn't realize she had got what she wanted.

 

Oh, I got that. She used something that was important to both of them as a means to an end.

 

At the end of the day, they both got what they wanted, but neither got what they needed. 

[regularlyleaded]

Her main, if not only, goal in that encounter was to figure out if Hook had anything with him that had touched pre-Dark One Rumple. Every word and gesture was directed towards that. In the scene at her basement cave afterwards, she tells Not!Rumple that she worked hard to get that sword. She looks cold and focussed on her goal. I'm not sure even those tears at the Jolly Roger were real or not.

Well... it was partly that. The reason for choosing the Jolly Roger as the location was because she wanted to know if Rumple had touched anything on the ship when he came to get Milah. Maybe she was hoping that she could find the part of the he had stood on so she wouldn't have to take the whole ship and crush it. The moment she realized the cutlass would do, she immediately brought up their AU moment and took the cutlass. She wasted no time.

Yes, I think she probably chose the ship as their meeting place so she could find something to awaken Rumpel. I'm not claiming that all her goals were sweet and innocent. What I'm attempting to point out is that that wasn't her only goal. Despite being the Dark One now, she still loves Hook. And so Dark Emma staged their meeting as their first date because she was trying to get him to continue their relationship (and yes, that's really messed up. there's no two ways about that). But because she is Dark Emma doesn't mean she doesn't love him and doesn't want him by her side. The darkness didn't remove the love that she has for Hook

(and if recent interviews are anything to go by, her love for Hook is exactly what's motivating her plans whatever they are).

If all she wanted was the cutlass she could've just well left once she had it.

---

I think the issue I have is that I vigorously disagree with the notion that Dark Emma's intent was to only use Hook. That every interaction is just her trying to pry information from him, and discounting her emotional reactions and assuming she's faking it when she seems to feel hurt. I think it's at that point that people are only seeing The Dark One, not even Dark Emma, just The Dark One. And so there's a penchant to make her out to be far more malicious than she's actually being. Everyone is assuming the worst because she's The Dark One (though, yes, with a history like The Dark One's it's not unreasonable to expect bad things down the road), but what they are forgetting that somewhere in there is still Emma, Emma The Savior and Emma has feelings. And she also isn't the same old Dark One's of past who got to their new position by murdering the previous Dark One. She got here by sacrificing herself to protect everyone else. That should matter. And I would hope makes a difference in this story line.

 

While I think that she was trying to get information from Hook (and he was trying to get information from her too), she also did want him to love her as she is now (and yes, it's messed up). And when he rejected her it hurt her. We can question and be suspicious of her agenda all day long; we don't know what the hell she's up to, may be it's for really bad reasons, may be it's for really good reasons. But I take issue that Emma doesn't feel hurt and doesn't have feelings.

Edited October 13, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Shanna Marie]

Yes, I think she probably chose the ship as their meeting place so she could find something to awaken Rumpel. I'm not claiming that all her goals were sweet and innocent. What I'm attempting to point out is that that wasn't her only goal. Despite being the Dark One now, she still loves Hook. And so Dark Emma staged their meeting as their first date because she was trying to get him to continue their relationship

But is it even possible to kill both those birds with a single stone? Can she expect him to trust her while she's deceiving and manipulating him? If she were herself, Original Recipe Emma, I don't think she'd expect that at all. Only someone whose perspective was twisted by darkness would think that way. In fact, feeling sorry for herself because he didn't trust her while she was deceiving and manipulating him is Regina-level thinking. Plus, she probably behaved in a different way than she would have if she hadn't had that other agenda. If she'd just been trying to continue their relationship and convince Hook to accept her as she is now, would she have brought up Rumple as any kind of example, knowing his history with him, or did she only bring that up because of her agenda of getting something Rumple had touched before he was the Dark One?

 

I have no doubt that she was hurt, and I don't think she's faking that or his feelings for him. I do think there's something a lot more complex going on and she has very mixed feelings, where she's doing some of this for his own good and it hurts and it sucks that she has to treat him this way, and she may even need to keep him off-balance and not falling for her games, so part of her may be glad that he's reacting this way even though it hurts. The analogy I used on the Relationships thread was if someone deliberately drove someone off to keep them safe -- even if they were glad the person was driven off because that meant they were safe, the fact that they were driven off would hurt. I think Original Recipe, Real Emma would be proud of him for resisting because the man she fell in love with wouldn't be tempted by the darkness and would hold out for her real self, so while Dark Emma is hurting, I don't think his "I loved you" will cause ongoing trauma for her once she's restored to her real self. In a weird, warped sort of way, him being with Dark Emma would be kind of like cheating on Real Emma, so while Dark Emma's pain now is real, I think this might lessen some of Real Emma's pain later because he remained true to her and never so lost faith in having her restored to him that he gave in to the despair and darkness. But at the moment, there's a huge disconnect between them because she's seeing her current self as her real self while he feels like being with her current self would be cheating on her real self.

 

I'm glad they haven't gone there with any kind of metaphor because I don't think they're good enough writers to pull it off, but it is kind of like dealing with addiction -- it lies to you and alters your view of yourself. Drugs/alcohol tell you that you're worthless without them, that you're better with them, and that makes it seem like anyone who doesn't accept you while you're using them doesn't accept who you are. You can't see it any other way while you're dealing with that, but once you move past it you can see the truth and see the "love" part of "tough love." That's the way things seem with Emma right now, so I have hope that she won't hold permanent grudges about this. She might have reason to hold other grudges, like being controlled beyond what she asked for and whatever went down in Camelot, but I don't think the "I loved you" will be on her permanent pain list once she's restored.

[Souris]

I think the problem with not getting enough from DarkSwan's POV -- and it's a typical one with this show -- is that they're writing to preserve the gotcha! twist. So they can't give us what DarkSwan is thinking or feeling, or we'd know too much. It's all about the misleading and the stringing things out, not the character examination.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I do think there's something a lot more complex going on and she has very mixed feelings, where she's doing some of this for his own good and it hurts and it sucks that she has to treat him this way, and she may even need to keep him off-balance and not falling for her games, so part of her may be glad that he's reacting this way even though it hurts.

 

This is my problem with the whole thing though. Was she deliberately trying to hurt him or was she just totally crazy and delusional in thinking that her games would get her somewhere with him? Rumpel wouldn't have fucked with Bae like that as the Dark One. He hurt Bae but not in a deliberate way. This was really, truly horrible and very unnecessarily hurtful to Hook, which doesn't seem at all like something Emma, even Dark Emma, would do. And yes, it's totally about that super surprise twist that's coming, but as far as I'm concerned, it's destroying my enjoyment of the story because without any context I can't understand the character. 

 

On a totally separate note, I think Emma was being completely genuine in her hatred of herself when talking about how the Dark One made her better. That was some serious self-loathing she had going on and that's not something that's going to go away once the darkness is removed. Emma is one seriously messed up woman and I wouldn't be shocked if she walked away when all of this is over.

[captainswancaskett]

Hi!  I've posted before but I couldn't remember my login info... anywhoo...

 

I think it's worth mentioning that Killian wasn't being an enabler.  If he'd told Emma "I love you" (which of course he does), she would now think she could have both love and power, and she would have no reason to fight the darkness and want to go back to regular Emma.

[Scovies]

I think the problem with not getting enough from DarkSwan's POV -- and it's a typical one with this show -- is that they're writing to preserve the gotcha! twist. So they can't give us what DarkSwan is thinking or feeling, or we'd know too much. It's all about the misleading and the stringing things out, not the character examination.

 

Nailed. It.

 

I think we're far more likely to have opportunities for character examination in Camelot, especially if the recent sneak peek for 5x04 is any indication. I just hope that, once we know everything, her choices as Dark Swan in SB actually make sense.

[FierceAfroChick]

The efforts to paint Emma as this demented, evil kidnapper really baffle me.  People are twisting themselves into all sorts of knots to defend Hook despite what's presented onscreen and what JM and the showrunners have confirmed.  Emma is Emma with Dark One mixed in.  I stand by my assertion that there's a difference between being the Dark One and Dark Emma.  That's who they're dealing with (again, thanks JMo and TPTB for that confirmation because that is exactly what I see). 

 

And she's still communicating to Hook that she loves him and wants him.  He did something entirely different.  And I get that he doesn't want to enable her.  Cool.  You go, Hook.  Keep working that tough loved angle if you that's what you think will help your girl.  I understand the arguments that he did what he thought was best, really, I get it...I can see things from his point of view.  If I want to talk about that further, I will take it to the Hook thread.  What I don't understand is why Emma has to be turned into the Evilest Bitch To Ever Evil to make Hook breaking her heart look totally justified. 

 

Fake tears?  Holding Hook prisoner?  *am I reading this stuff right?* 

 

Yes, she mindfucked him.  He was doing some pretty stellar mindfucking himself, he just wasn't as good at it.  Emma did not tell him she didn't love him.  She did not physically harm him.  She did not rip out his nuts and set them on fire.  Now that would be "really, truly horrible".  Seriously, if it had been Snow who had broken her heart and told her she no longer loved her, Snow would be catching all kinds of hell.  

 

I think it's sad indeed that girlfriend thinks she's more powerful with that curse on her and yet those three little ugly words from Killian destroyed her anyway.  I think it's sad that the Emma thread has been hijacked by "But-but Killian" posts.

 

I think both me and Emma need a vacation from this shit.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the parallel we should be talking about here is Baelfire/Rumple vs Emma/Hook rather than Belle/Rumple vs Emma/Hook. 

 

I disagree that real Emma didn't peak through. I think she went there with her agenda which she carried pretty beautifully. I think her pleas for trust were genuine. And I think "reliving" the first date, putting on the dress and so on, brought out that Emma part of her. I think we can draw direct parallels with her saying that she's not scared anymore and that whole speech with her the things she said in "Lost Girl". I think she got caught up in the moment, which is fine because it means that the darkness hasn't overtaken her completely yet.

 

Hook is not playing with a full deck, he knew she was there for something. The Dark One and Emma are two separate things. The Dark One is an entity all on its own. It is living inside of Emma, it is twisting who she is and what she is. Maybe he can't see past the darkness that's twisting everything in him as well. He told Robin that Emma is beyond reasoning. This is what he's seeing right now. 

 

I think we'll all just have to agree to disagree and wait and see what happened in Camelot, and what Emma's plans are which I think are a long con she's playing anyway at this point. 

 

The time will come when Hook will make the choice to look past the darkness and see the best in Emma, just as he promised.

[Rumsy4]

I'm just going to add one more thing, and then I'm done. ;-) Hook wasn't thinking about whether he was enabling her or not. He was reacting to the situation. The main issue is that he is not able to trust this Emma. Maybe in his heart, he's afraid Emma might betray his trust just like Rumple did Belle. In Emma's house, he said, "you can tell me anything." In his ship again, he was asking her to help him trust her. Emma evaded every attempt to meet him at least part way in the trust thing. He is unable to guage how much of Emma is really there, and Emma is not helping. Maybe she genuinely can't tell him anything. We don't even know if she has all her memories.

Rewatching the scene, it's a heartbreaking on both sides. But I agree with yadda yadda--Hook will eventually be able to see past the persona, and will make a decision to trust Emma, and Emma in turn will be more forthcoming with Hook.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I think the problem with not getting enough from DarkSwan's POV -- and it's a typical one with this show -- is that they're writing to preserve the gotcha! twist. So they can't give us what DarkSwan is thinking or feeling, or we'd know too much. It's all about the misleading and the stringing things out, not the character examination.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. While this scene was nicely written and beautifully acted and involved some lovely misdirection so that it wasn't obvious up front what Emma was after, when you really think about it in the greater context, it was pretty contrived. Emma may have a greater purpose at work and a reason for not just talking to Hook, but they aren't showing that until we get to the surprise! twist! (that will likely not be all that surprising or twisty). Without that knowledge, you have to wonder about all the drama -- why did she have to set it up that way, with the note on the takeout he didn't order, why did she have to sail the ship away instead of talking to him at the dock? Why couldn't she just come out and tell him what she needed and why? Maybe she'd want to keep the greater purpose a secret, but how opposed would he have been to waking up Rumple? He's friends with Belle, who's been carting around that rose jar. Would he really have refused Emma if she'd said she could revive Rumple if he happened to have anything on hand that had touched him before he was the Dark One? Or at least after he told her about the earlier incident and mentioned being the villain, couldn't she have said, "Great, now you can make up for it and save him by giving me that sword"? Or is she going to be keeping revived Rumple a secret, so she couldn't let him know that's what she was doing?

 

Would the darkness really have affected her so much that she couldn't be able to be that honest with him? And I'm sure we'll find out in the next couple of episodes that he really does still love her, and she'll know this, and she couldn't talk to him because of Reasons, but mostly it comes down to the fact that they don't want to tell us yet because they're dragging out the drama. It's like last season and the Ursula secret, which came down to "I can't talk about it with you because it's not my centric episode yet."

 

And while I don't think he was ever in danger from her while she had him alone at sea, I do have to say that if you flipped the genders and a male character had done that to a female character, there would have been a massive outcry of screams about rape culture and agency. It was not the behavior of someone who wanted to be seen as trustworthy. That's my problem with the whole thing.

[Camera One]

I didn't get the sense of danger from the scene at all.  If Emma wanted to kill Hook, he would be dead already.  If she wanted him in her bedchamber, he would be locked in her basement right now.  She tried to seduce him, he said no, and she left.  

[pezgirl7]

I also don't understand what the point of the date was, unless she truly wanted to spend time with Hook. Or was she just trying to get info from him about something that had touched Rumble when he was alive? I don't understand why she told earworm Rumble that she "worked hard" to get the sword off Hook's ship. What was so hard about it?!

[Camera One]

I completely forgot about that line.  Hmm... yeah, who knows.  They needed to fill 20 seconds?

[YaddaYadda]

I don't understand why she told earworm Rumble that she "worked hard" to get the sword off Hook's ship. What was so hard about it?!

 

She had to manipulate and hurt someone she loves in order to get the sword. Rumple told her she crushed Hook's heart under her unpractical boot in reply to that (that's how I remember it).

 

And in no time was Hook in danger from her. I thought they drew a couple of interesting parallels when Emma brought up Rumple cowering in fear on the JR's deck.

 

The first one was when Hook held his cutlass to her head and said that Rumple was a good man trying to keep his family together. I thought that fleshed out Emma's motivation for embracing the darkness right there.

 

And the second one was when he said Rumple turned into a monster, a killer. Rumple killed Milah in the same spot he stood in being scared years before that. If Emma had any intentions of doing something to Hook, she would've done it, period.

[pezgirl7]

She had to manipulate and hurt someone she loves in order to get the sword. Rumple told her she crushed Hook's heart under her unpractical boot in reply to that (that's how I remember it).

I thought of that, but I wouldn't call that working hard. It might have been a hard thing for her to do, but phrasing it the way she did was odd. If I have to break up with someone, I'm not going to say it was hard work. I'd say it was hard on me, or it was a hard thing to do. Anyway, maybe she was just covering her feelings in front of spirit guide Rumple.

I hated when Hook held the cutlass close to Emma. Even if he had no intention to hurt her, and even though she's dark, it still was a very uncool thing to do.

Edited October 17, 2015 by pezgirl7

[Camera One]

Maybe Dark Emma has been listening to Donna Summer's "She Works Hard For The Money".

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking about all this, the only thing that makes Emma's behavior have any kind of internal logic and consistency is that she's playing a long con for a good reason. Otherwise, it doesn't add up if you take it all to be exactly what it seems -- why did she have to hurt Hook to get the sword, why did she have to go through all the date drama if she actually wanted to get back together with him and continue their relationship, why can't she tell even a partial truth about what she wanted that would have made it easier both to get the sword and get him to trust her? I don't think she's faking that she's still the Dark One because Clippy Rumple is proof of that. I think she might be fooling herself about how much she's really surrendered to the Darkness. I suspect she had a good reason for trying to do so, like she thought the only way she could accomplish what she needed to do to save everyone else was give in and totally use all that power, but that then created a bit of a paradox: if you're surrendering to the Darkness in order to save everyone, can you really be surrendering to the Darkness? That would imply that there's enough love in there to keep the Darkness from taking over completely, and that seems to be what's going on with her current relationship with Clippy Rumple. If he's still there, she hasn't actually integrated the Darkness.

 

In a way, her whole Goth Girl Dark Swan look may even be a sign that she's not truly evil. If she were actually evil and up to no good, and if she's capable of looking like her old self, wouldn't it have made her scheme (whatever it is) easier when dealing with people who had their memories wiped to pretend to be her old self? She could have been all "Mom, Dad, Killian, Henry, you saved me!!!!" and they would have trusted her entirely without making any efforts to see what she was up to or stop her. Like, say, early 3B Zelena, playing innocent midwife instead of letting everyone know exactly who and what she was (and if Zelena is beating you on the evil scheme scale, you're failing at Dark One-ing). But Emma is walking around town in her pale makeup and black wardrobe and might as well be wearing a giant blinking button saying, "Ask me about my inner Darkness!" And if she truly believes that this is exactly who she is now and who she wants to be and that there's no going back, and if she wants to continue her relationship with Hook (or build a new one with him as her new self), then why re-create her first-date look and mess with him that way, practically guaranteeing he'd freak out and trust her even less? If what she really wants is him to see her as she is now and deal with that, wouldn't she keep that look, making it clear that the old Emma as gone, and he can take her as she is now or not take her at all? 

 

Which all leads me to believe that for whatever she's working on, she needs to keep everyone off-balance and at a distance. She needs them to believe she's all-out dark and unable -- and maybe unwilling -- to be "saved" because she doesn't want them to do the thing that will "save" her. It might even require some ruthlessness on her part, which is why she's staying dark and trying to convince herself that it's better this way. So she might have been in utter earnest about wanting to get back with Hook even while her scheme required her to be so off-putting that maybe he'd give up. And when he did give up, even though that was her goal, it had to really hurt that it was possible for him to do so. There had to have been a part of her hoping her scheme wouldn't work, even though she needed it to.

[Camera One]

That's the best case scenario to me.  Based on the actions we have seen so far, it doesn't preclude that possibility.  Though I wouldn't be surprised if A&E still throw in a flashback where Snowing truly hurts Emma since that's their favorite go-to for motivation.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

I think she might be fooling herself about how much she's really surrendered to the Darkness. I suspect she had a good reason for trying to do so, like she thought the only way she could accomplish what she needed to do to save everyone else was give in and totally use all that power, but that then created a bit of a paradox: if you're surrendering to the Darkness in order to save everyone, can you really be surrendering to the Darkness?

 

I think the way Emma has acted as Dark Swan kind of lends itself to her not really being that into it. Cruella reveled in the Darkness, Regina smiled gleefully while she did terrible things, Rumpel seemed to get a kick out of it too. Emma, on the other hand, just seems kind of sad about it. She's not enjoying herself at all. I feel bad for her in that she was being driven mad by the Darkness and fought it, but when she finally gave in, one of the positives (that of ditching the voice in her head) didn't actually go away. She just can't win.

[mjgchick]

Emma Swan Miss One Night Stands has a house with a white picket fence. Also holds onto flowers from a different realm. lol

 

I do agree that Emma doesn't seem to want to be Dark Swan which leads me to believe she's doing this all for the greater good. The difference between her and Arthur is telling. He ended up being driven mad with power while Emma is slowly descending into darkness because she's trying to protect her loved ones at least that's what it looks like to me right now. Al though after knowing her parents had their agency taken away from them they obviously do something terrible that causes her to lose it but I don't think she'd let anyone hurt her family though. I really need a scene between Emma and her parents.

[Mari]

Emma Swan Miss One Night Stands has a house with a white picket fence.

Well, Hook did sort of say he wanted one. The fence, I mean.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

I really need a scene between Emma and her parents.

 

Yes, I know everyone loves Hook and the scenes between Emma and Hook have been well done, but spread the wealth a little.  Can you imagine if we got half an episode with Snow and Charming helping Emma to get the demon out of her head for a little bit.  It would never happen because there isn't romantic love and we wouldn't get a passionate kiss out of it.

[Mari]

Yes, I know everyone loves Hook and the scenes between Emma and Hook have been well done, but spread the wealth a little.  Can you imagine if we got half an episode with Snow and Charming helping Emma to get the demon out of her head for a little bit.

Or even half an episode where they try to come to terms with how things are, and brainstorm ideas on how to deal with it. I'm even okay with half an episode of them having an argument about it, as long as they're allowed to have an actual family scene that doesn't include creepy faux parenting of Regina, and has the actual parents and actual offspring engaged with each other.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Mari

[scenicbyway]

I agree that there should be more dialogue between Emma and her parents but at her age she should be working through her problems with her partner vs. her parents.  There are trust issues between Emma and her parents but there isn't with Hook or Henry so they seems like the most likely candidates to be "with" her.

 

We also saw Charming runoff with Arthur on a quest the first chance he got and I have to think that he did like the attention despite his later, short lived, opinion.  Emma doesn't have time for that at this point.

[YaddaYadda]

I think at this point, it's really a trust issue between Emma and her parents. If the show wanted to write scenes where those 3 hashed out everything, it would be really great. 

 

I think the reason Henry and Hook have been able to chase away the darkness while it just stood there when Emma was having a conversation with her parents is because she doesn't trust them the way she trusts Henry and Hook.

 

Yesterday's episode was about trust and Hook blatantly lied to Snow about not knowing what happened to Emma, and how she hadn't spoken. Even Emma gave him a look when he said that.

 

It's not just Camelot and A/G that are broken.

Edited October 19, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Mari]

Absolutely it makes sense that Killian and Henry are the ones that keep out of the dark one out of Emma's head. They are the ones she trusts. However, there should be sometime in the show when Snow and David try to reach out to Emma, instead of scenes where they are parenting Regina or arguing over who has the better Camelot bestie. After all, Emma specifically asked Mary Margaret and David to help her and we have yet to see much of that relationship play out on screen.

[mjgchick]

Exactly, Emma specifically asked her parents to save her like the heroes she believes they are but then the season starts and the first real conversation she has with them is some creepy ass conversation where she puts her hand on Snows face looking terrified of her daughter.

 

If Emma has trust issues with her parents fine but can the show at least show that she has them? Like Snow in S2 would've wanted to talk to Emma even if she's dark. This Snow is just moping around holding a doll. Hook's moping but at least he's doing something like getting people to go check out Emma's door. We've had only one scene in Camelot with Emma and her mother which was a sweet scene that didn't at all seem like she had trust issues with her mom so I don't even know if the show is writing them like that or if they just get to fangirly when it comes to Captain Swan and Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

But you know what's gonna happen now though. The interaction between Emma and her parents in Camelot will likely increase now that they're under the influence of the magic sand, which means that she will get screwed over somehow.

 

I think ultimately, they will hand her dagger over the Arthur and he will force her to do something she doesn't want to do, and she will blame her parents for it, not knowing that they have no control over their actions.

[Dianthus]

Is it possible that whoever controls Emma's dagger (Arthur?) post-Regina, before Emma gets it back, commands her to give in to the Darkness, or stop struggling against it? How much would that suck?

[mjgchick]

But it doesn't sound like she has given into the darkness. Emma is stronger than she actually think she is because as the Dark one all she's done is use her magic with more confidence. So her stupid parents taking away her darkness was such a waste of time in the end because even as the Dark One she has a motivation to protect those she loves. She's not playing games the way Rumple did with those "Magic has a price" stuff. She was playing games with Hook last week though. lol But that just sounds like she's trying to protect him.

[YaddaYadda]

It sounds like embracing the darkness was a conscious decision on her part.

[KAOS Agent]

I'd actually argue that Emma is showing lots of trust in her parents to help her while going off with Hook. Snowing were left with Regina to work to figure things out while Emma tried to get her head on straight. Control freak Emma left them to do their thing and trusted them to get it right. Unfortunately, Snowing are so stupid that they told both potential enemies everything about her and the dagger in their super plan to flush out the villain. Even without the brainwashing, Snowing massively betrayed their daughter and her trust. Now it's going to get so much worse and I can't tell you how much I hate this storyline.

 

As to their not helping Emma fight the Darkness, I thought that Hook flat out lying to them about Emma's head demon and her reaction showed that both of them realize that Snowing are not the people to help her with the voice in her head. Both saw the poor reaction to her after the incident at the sheriff's station and know about the eggnapping and the fears that drove them to that, so I think while Emma trusts them to help her, she realizes that they are not the people who can help her with the demon in her head. Fear is not a good reaction and I don't think either of Emma's parents are capable of reacting the way they need to. 

[Camera One]

But you know what's gonna happen now though. The interaction between Emma and her parents in Camelot will likely increase now that they're under the influence of the magic sand, which means that she will get screwed over somehow.

I think you're right.  A&E probably thinks it will be more interesting for us to see Creepo Mind-controlled Snow and Charming interact with Emma , dun dun dun, how will they betray her and Regina next.  Ugh.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I just realized that this latest episode showed events that were echoed in the present-day part of the previous two episodes. In Camelot, Emma and Hook talked about having a white picket fence life -- and look at the house Emma took/created in Storybrooke and that she poofed Hook to, taking him to the front of the house where the picket fence showed before inviting him inside. Then in Camelot he talked to her about her needing to trust him, which was eerily echoed in her talk to him in the faux date scene.

 

That would certainly explain why she was so sad when he reacted the way he did. She was repeating to him what he'd said to her, but he reacted in a totally different way than she did. And in the earlier scene at the house, she was giving him what he said he wanted.

 

But I also wonder if she's trying to jog his memory by bringing up all these things that echoed Camelot. Which would suggest something is keeping her from telling him outright.

[OnceUponAJen]

I've been suspecting that she has been prevented from talking. I'm surprised that that hasn't occurred to any of the other characters yet.

Edited October 21, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[YaddaYadda]

She is keeping mostly to herself. the only interactions she's had were with Henry and Hook. In 5x02, she told Hook she wished she could tell him what happened in Camelot, then she changed the to topic of conversation on him.

 

There is definitely something more up with her. I think she might've hijacked the curse like Zelena did from Snow in 3B. I'm still pretty convinced that whatever is going on, it has everything to do with Hook.

[captainswancaskett]

I have to say, as frustrating as it is not knowing what happened in Camelot -specifically to Emma- it's nice not knowing in a way, because in other seasons, I feel like I was always able to predict things/storylines.  But now, while there are several theories floating around about Emma's Dark One-ness, any of them could be true and one doesn't really seem more plausible than the other.

 

As much as I was annoyed about Emma being the new villain/Dark One over the summer, I'm enjoying how it's playing out, and I hope at the end of this, they really delve into the issues Emma's been dealing with her entire life.  Okay, maybe that's asking for too much, but at least since she came to Storybrooke.  Because IIRC, nobody's mentioned the fact that she was locked up in a tower all alone with her memories intact for the entirety of that AU... I think it was one or two years from what I've read.  That's gotta be pretty traumatizing.

[Dianthus]

OnceUponAJen, on 21 Oct 2015 - 3:12 PM, said:

I've been suspecting that she has been prevented from talking. I'm surprised that that hasn't occurred to any of the other characters yet.

I'm not. They aren't allowed to be smart.

[mjgchick]

Still Team Emma show. I can't wait for the idiots in her family to realize all she's doing is to protect them all like she always does. She saved all their asses and even as the Dark One is still doing it. Also? Breaking Henrys heart wasn't the evil deed. Ripping out the heart of a 13 year old child is show. So call me when Violet goes off on Emma for physically hurting her over Henry who puts Emma on this unbelievable pedestal compared to his other mother who he was once afraid of.

[Curio]

At least they're not brushing Emma's evil deed under the rug and Henry knows about what she did to Violet prior to his mind wipe, which means that Emma can properly ask for forgiveness and have a believable redemption arc. Henry still has no idea Regina mind wiped him to make him forget about her plan to kill his loved ones.

[YaddaYadda]

Emma's list of transgressions is extremely short compared to that of other people. Her motivation is there, and it's not I'm seeking revenge on everything and everyone because...reasons.

 

It's like she has this wonderful moment with Hook in the meadow, where she feels somewhat like her old self. Then she comes back, finds out her parents have been whammied, their host isn't who they think he is, he plans on using her to put the sword back together, with no care what would happen to her in the process. So yeah, there is a sense of urgency for her. She told Henry that his tears were going to save her. 

 

Yeah, the way she went about it was not super great, but who else was going to provide her with what she needed? It's either Violet's heart that she takes and uses to break Henry's, or it's Henry's heart that she takes to break Violet's.

 

Part of me wondered if she knew/saw that Regina's tears wouldn't workout. She's got a plan B ready to go.

 

I thought drawing the parallel between Emma and Cora though was too much. Emma didn't murder Violet in front of her son, she wasn't on some power trip.

 

So writers, you can say that as much as you want and draw the stupidest weirdest parallels, it's not working for me. Emma legitimately tried to make it up to Henry.

[mjgchick]

Since becoming the Dark One Emma's Intelligence from S1/2A has returned. lol Her having a plan A and B and C is what's making this storyline work for me. Yeah her plane B and Cs ends up hurting her loved one but its working in the end and like you guys have said Emma did make it up to Henry even if she's the one who had the horse run away. Emma still haven't killed anyone so Regina you can kindly shut your pie hole tbh.

Does Arthur not know that Emma's the savior yet?

[YaddaYadda]

Does Arthur not know that Emma's the savior yet?

 

I'm pretty sure he didn't know. I think he really believed that Regina was the Savior, that's why he called her a fraud.

 

I'm sure he now knows that Emma is the Savior too.

[mjgchick]

I wonder how jelly he got when he noticed Merlin knew who Emma was. He was so sure he was Merlin's only plan. Must have stung knowing he wasn't the only one. lol

[Mathius]

Since becoming the Dark One Emma's Intelligence from S1/2A has returned.

 

You mean the intelligence she showed when being constantly duped by Regina, or firing a gun in known ogre territory?

 

Maybe it's an unpopular view, but to me Emma's always been kind of a dim bulb.

[Rumsy4]

I have to say that none of the characters come across as brainy. Except perhaps Rumple. 

[mjgchick]

It reminds me of PLL where someone as smart as Spencer does something that seems smart but gets it snuffed under them because they can't have her win so early.

I'm OK with Emma not being as smart in EF but she did bested Hook and Cora in the end. Same with her in S1. She did end up besting Regina. She screwed up with giving Rumple the egg though.

And anyways anyone who turned their life around after living in the streets most of their lives has to be a smart person. lol

[Dianthus]

Hook is reasonably intelligent when not forced to take the Idiot Ball. You can't last as long as he has, in so risky a "profession" as pirate, without some innate intelligence.