Why the Demarcation? - Liv's Love Life

[possibilities]

I'm just worried that all the white people get to have plots and sex lives and all the people of color get to be asexual sidekicks. Ravi is my favorite character, but he never has anything to do other than support Liv. He's such a chess piece, he even moved to a new residence for Liv's plot! And Clive, too-- he's got no life other than jumping into action when Liv calls. It wouldn't be so bad if everyone else revolved around Liv, too-- but they don't. Even the one offs have more life than Ravi or Clive. And Major had a rebound relationship, plus the missing protege plot (and the killed-off kids he's looking for are POC), the new zombie love interest is a white guy, the Big Bad Blaine is a white guy, etc etc. It's starting to be more than a few examples and has begun to be a predictable pattern.

Edited April 16, 2015 by possibilities

[FurryFury]

I think it's a bit early to complain that Ravi or Clyde have no lives or love interests.

[dohe]

I'm just worried that all the white people get to have plots and sex lives and all the people of color get to be asexual sidekicks. Ravi is my favorite character, but he never has anything to do other than support Liv. He's such a chess piece, he even moved to a new residence for Liv's plot! And Clive, too-- he's got no life other than jumping into action when Liv calls. It wouldn't be so bad if everyone else revolved around Liv, too-- but they don't. Even the one offs have more life than Ravi or Clive. And Major had a rebound relationship, plus the missing protege plot (and the killed-off kids he's looking for are POC), the new zombie love interest is a white guy, the Big Bad Blaine is a white guy, etc etc. It's starting to be more than a few examples and has begun to be a predictable pattern.

That has become a big concern for me to the point I am considering no longer watching it. You nailed it. You have two major male characters that are not white and they are treated as if the show would not even consider them being romantically interested in Liv or vice versa. You have three major male characters who are white and they are treated as Liv's old love interest, Liv's new love interest and the bad guy who no doubt will also share some romantic interest. Even worse the characters of Major and Lowell have nothing but looks. That is all they offer. They are bland eye candy. They are a joke. But just as long as Liv dates bland white men while the men that are not white are played as exposition tellers or the straight man in comic sequences who could not possibly be love interests, I guess I am supposed to be cool with that.

[EyewatchTV211]

 

I tend to agree.  Five episodes isn't much, and I'd argue that the reason we know something about Major's love life is that Liv was/is interested, and she's the main character.  I think Ravi and Peyton might be put on a course towards one another in the near future.

 

I don't think it can be said enough that Ravi is an appealing character.  He's charming.

I also agree it is just way too early. They are still working on establishing this world and the main character. Throwing characters of other races/cultures to the side wasn't a problem on VM, and I don't see RT leaving things that way with how he handles race/culture/SES issues. Veronica and Wallace were just friends and stayed that way, which was nice and refreshing compared to so many shows. So I don't want Ravi or Clive to be interested in Liv. But Wallace had several love interests and he and Weevil both had in depth storylines over the seasons. And 

Weevil is married in the movie.

[Cranberry]

I personally love stories where a man and a woman spend a lot of time together, respect each other, and/or are close friends without any romantic tension leading to drama, and we see it so rarely on TV (in all the shows I watch, I can only think of Sherlock and Joan Watson on Elementary, Peggy and Jarvis on Agent Carter, and Emily and Nolan on Revenge -- Fitz and Simmons on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. were wonderful until the show went the unrequited love route on his end and ruined it). We're only five episodes in and I think it's much too early to assume that those two are going to be sexless sidekicks just because they don't have sexual tension with the main character. As mentioned, Peyton might like one of them (which would help draw her into the main story, too), and there's so much time to add more characters.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I personally love stories where a man and a woman spend a lot of time together, respect each other, and/or are close friends without any romantic tension leading to drama, and we see it so rarely on TV

ITA - that's one of the reasons I loved Veronica and Wallace's friendship. Despite what Harry Burns said, men and women CAN be friends without any sexual tension, but 99% of the time on tv and in movies if there are a man and a woman, at least one of them must fall in love or be attracted to the other.

While I totally understand the frustration with men of color not being seen as romantic leads (I can think of three Asian men who have been main characters with love interests in recent American tv history, only one of whom was paired with a non-Asian woman), in this case I find Ravi to be much more interesting than either Major or Lowell who are bland and boring. I know it's all personal preference but if I were an actor, I would rather be the smart funny sidekick than the boring love interest without a personality.

[dohe]

I also agree it is just way too early. They are still working on establishing this world and the main character. Throwing characters of other races/cultures to the side wasn't a problem on VM, and I don't see RT leaving things that way with how he handles race/culture/SES issues. Veronica and Wallace were just friends and stayed that way, which was nice and refreshing compared to so many shows. So I don't want Ravi or Clive to be interested in Liv. But Wallace had several love interests and he and Weevil both had in depth storylines over the seasons. And

Weevil is married in the movie.

This has nothing to do with whether a man and a woman can just be friends. This has to do with asking why are the men who are not white the ones who are just friends with Liv while the white men are the love interests. And again it wouldn't be so problematic if the show was not coming from a person who did this before.

One of the things I have commented on is that if neither Ravi or Clive becomes a love interest for Liv it is the same road with Wallace on Veronica Mars. Veronica dates a series of white men while the show never approaches going the route of close male friend who is not white could be a love interest. That is not a trend. However to have the same development play out from a new show by the very same show creator with Liv, the white female, having multiple white male boyfriends while the two men who are not white are disallowed from being a romantic interest comes across as a troubling trend. Lowell and Major can be friends to Liv while Ravi or Clive is the love interest for Liv. That would actually be refreshing because what I am seeing so far could not be less refreshing.

Edited April 17, 2015 by dohe

[EyewatchTV211]

Ravi KNOWS she's a zombie. Even if he did like in this way (which I'm personally not sure about, I just don't think they have this kind of chemistry), it would probably put a damper on it. As for Clive, I dunno, for me he looks kinda old, like, late 30s (I may be wrong). And he and Liv just don't know each other that well yet. I just really don't see any romance between any of them and Liv at this point, and their race doesn't really matter here.

This is part of it. Major was already established as a past love interest for Liv. The new guys who are POC are not zombies, and at this point she does not think she can date a non-zombie, so she has roadblocks up to even thinking of going there. They could introduce a new zombie who is a POC. But again, it's still just 5 episodes.

 

As for VM, you are right, Veronica as the main character never dated someone from a diverse background. But 

her father, who is also an important character, dated Wallace's mother. And while not THE main character, Wallace, Logan, Weevil, Lilly (with Weevil) and Weevil's cousin all dated people of backgrounds different from them.

Edited April 17, 2015 by VMepicgrl

[Morgan of Hed]

 

If they're going to pursue love stories, I want to see them diversify STAT.

Why is this so important to your enjoyment of the story?  The fact is that people tend to date within their own race, and Liv as a straight-arrow-eyes-on-the-prize med student would probably follow that pattern.  There is already plenty of diversity in the cast with Ravi arguably being the most entertaining character in the show.

[jaytee1812]

I'm just worried that all the white people get to have plots and sex lives and all the people of color get to be asexual sidekicks. Ravi is my favorite character, but he never has anything to do other than support Liv. He's such a chess piece, he even moved to a new residence for Liv's plot! And Clive, too-- he's got no life other than jumping into action when Liv calls. It wouldn't be so bad if everyone else revolved around Liv, too-- but they don't. Even the one offs have more life than Ravi or Clive. And Major had a rebound relationship, plus the missing protege plot (and the killed-off kids he's looking for are POC), the new zombie love interest is a white guy, the Big Bad Blaine is a white guy, etc etc. It's starting to be more than a few examples and has begun to be a predictable pattern.

I'm just watch Veronica Mars now and that seems to be the same thing. White guys are love interests, POC are for sidekicks. Given this is the same team is that likely to change?

[Cranberry]

We're five episodes in. It's way too early to say that anyone on the show will be sexless.

 

As mentioned, the POC characters on VMars had some meaty storylines and well-developed love interests. I don't understand why someone has to date the main character for their story to be considered legit. I'd actually rather not see my favorite characters date the main character, as with core romances (especially on CW shows) comes boring-ass drama. I always liked watching Veronica and Wallace together much more than I liked watching her with Duncan or Piz (or Logan in the periods where they were constantly fighting). Their stories were more interesting and often more fun. I think he's also the only guy she consistently stayed in touch with throughout high school, college, and beyond. He meant a lot to her, and they didn't have to sleep together for the audience to understand that.

[possibilities]

Why is this so important to your enjoyment of the story?

Why is it important to me that the POC be three dimensional characters, not restricted to playing asexual sidekicks, victims, and criminals, while the white characters fill all types of roles, especially the most developed ones, and are allowed to have love interests (whether that's the main character or not)? I can't understand why that is even a question anyone could form in their mind,l et alone be unable to answer. It's because it's insultingly racist and I find it alienating and distasteful to see POC reduced to stereotypes. If other people don't notice, don't mind, or actively prefer it, I could ask them why that is as easily as they can ask me why I do notice and it does bother me. I was kind of hoping my point of view would be refuted by actual evidence I'd forgotten, of characters that break the stereotypical racist patterns, but since that's not the case, probably this is one of those dead end conversations where people like me think it's important, other people don't, and we'll never understand how the other thinks.

[dohe]

We're five episodes in. It's way too early to say that anyone on the show will be sexless.

 

As mentioned, the POC characters on VMars had some meaty storylines and well-developed love interests. I don't understand why someone has to date the main character for their story to be considered legit. I'd actually rather not see my favorite characters date the main character, as with core romances (especially on CW shows) comes boring-ass drama. I always liked watching Veronica and Wallace together much more than I liked watching her with Duncan or Piz (or Logan in the periods where they were constantly fighting). Their stories were more interesting and often more fun. I think he's also the only guy she consistently stayed in touch with throughout high school, college, and beyond. He meant a lot to her, and they didn't have to sleep together for the audience to understand that.

Wallace became little more than a minor, peripheral character by the end. The last season's primary focus was about Veronica choosing between two white men as fans expressed their feelings on which one was hotter - something Logan won handily because he was the clichéd dangerous, bad boy with a good heart. Anyways to me when people respond with a it is cooler to be the sidekick who does not have a romance angle reminds me of people who, when I expressed my belief in same sex marriage, would make comments such as "Trust me. You're lucky you can't get married." It doesn't answer the question and seems to try to express a negative as a positive.

Why has this guy now made two shows about a young white woman with a diverse cast - a very good thing - where there is a demarcation between how the white female lead of a show interacts with white men around her age (romantically) and POC men (non-romantic sidekicks) around her age - a very problematic thing.

Can a thread be opened to discuss this. Some people on here think this is very problematic and should not be ignored. But it does seem to be getting away from the episode - the discussion beginning with the show brought in a new white male for Liv to fall for while ignoring the POC males she is friends with.

 

I'm just watch Veronica Mars now and that seems to be the same thing. White guys are love interests, POC are for sidekicks. Given this is the same team is that likely to change?

I spent three years watching Veronica Mars and I think it is highly doubtful. In all likelihood any interracial or same sex romances will be saved for far in the background - sort of the 1 minute in an episode here and there - and it will not involve Liv. The demarcation is very much set it appears.

Edited April 17, 2015 by dohe

[Minneapple]

It's because it's insultingly racist and I find it alienating and distasteful to see POC reduced to stereotypes.

I'd argue that none of the POC on this show are stereotypes, that Clive, Ravi and the police captain are better characters than the white sidekicks in Peyton and Major. The only complaint is that none of the characters of color are love interests, which ok could be a valid complaint if we never see any interracial relationships on the show and it's a bunch of episodes down the line.

Five episodes. I'll give them time.

[EyewatchTV211]

Why is it important to me that the POC be three dimensional characters, not restricted to playing asexual sidekicks, victims, and criminals, while the white characters fill all types of roles, especially the most developed ones, and are allowed to have love interests (whether that's the main character or not)? I can't understand why that is even a question anyone could form in their mind,l et alone be unable to answer. It's because it's insultingly racist and I find it alienating and distasteful to see POC reduced to stereotypes. If other people don't notice, don't mind, or actively prefer it, I could ask them why that is as easily as they can ask me why I do notice and it does bother me. I was kind of hoping my point of view would be refuted by actual evidence I'd forgotten, of characters that break the stereotypical racist patterns, but since that's not the case, probably this is one of those dead end conversations where people like me think it's important, other people don't, and we'll never understand how the other thinks.

I thought I somewhat refuted with evidence, although it was under spoiler tags because some of the examples are important surprises in the VM show if people haven't watched. At least in terms of mixed relationships. Again, while Veronica was not in a mixed relationship, they did have multiple examples with other major characters who were. And the characters who were POC had meaty storylines. Were there aspects of their personalities that fit stereotypes? For sure. But there were also aspects that were not stereotypes. Yes, Wallace played basketball (despite not being terribly tall). But he wasn't portrayed as other shows may have where they would have made him relatively unintelligent/uneducated, "gangsta." Which is totally a stereotype. However, he was intelligent, enjoyed math and planned on pursuing engineering (although that didn't work out), and an excellent/supportive best friend. Weevil I'll give was more stereotypical, with the heart of gold aspect thrown in.

 

Meanwhile, I think they are purposely shedding light on some stereotypes and the problem with them. By having many of the skate park kids who are disappearing being POC and no one noticing, I think they are sadly showing something that would likely actually happen. We see and hear the media highlighting missing white children and missing white women and rarely hear about missing people of color. This is a real life problem. I have a huge problem with it.

 

And yes, Lowell or Major could have been cast as diverse characters and weren't. I'm not the producers and can't tell you if that was intentional or not. But I feel like even if Clive and Ravi were cast as white men, they wouldn't be shoving relationships at them at this point either. I still hold that it is unfair to be mad that not every character on the show is paired up with someone and that it must mean Clive and Ravi are going to be forever shown as asexual. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by VMepicgrl

[dohe]

A place to debate concerns about how the show runners choose romantic partners for Liv. As with Veronica Mars, this show has a diverse cast - which is cool - and, as with Veronica Mars, POCs can only be sidekicks for the white female lead while she falls for only white men - which is raising concerns. Since this show so far seems to be following the same model, I think it raises questions.

Edited April 17, 2015 by dohe

[jaytee1812]

I'd don't see Liv and Ravi as a viable couple, but Liv and Clive could be. But right now it does feel like the show, intentionally or not, is saying 'these white guys are potential love interests, these men of colour not so much'. 

[Cranberry]

I'm not so sure I believe that on this show, POCs can only be sidekicks for the white female lead while she falls for only white men. We're only five episodes in and I feel that it's too early to draw conclusions about the rules of Liv's dating life just yet. I understand the concern about where you think the show is going, but I don't feel that we have enough evidence to say it's definitely going that route.

[FurryFury]

Personally, I can't say I care about the race issues much (at least not more than such things as female representation, etc.) Mostly because I'm not from the US and find it really hard to strongly care about an issue I don't face in my everyday life and basically see only on TV. So my opinion may be skewed some, I realize. OTOH, i don't have the cultural baggage associated with living in US and other countries wih a painful history of slavery and/or segregation.

So I tend to not really notice the race of a character. For me, writing matters, acting matters, chemistry matters, but things like race isn't that big of an issue unless it's a plot point in-universe, like with Weevil. I don't mind diversity - hell, I'm all for it simply because it's cool to see people with different looks and from different cultural backgrounds - but I just can't agree that giving the lead a PoC love interest is somehow required to be diverse. Ravi and Clyve are actually more important for the show than Liv's main LI Major or temporary LI Lowell. While platonic, their relationships with her help form the core of the show. I think that your insistence that they should be made LIs makes it look like romantic relationships are somehow more important than platonic, which is obviously not the case here.

Also, who's to say Liv and Ravi won't hook up two seasons down the road? It's not like Major's such a hit and the romance so far has been shown rather ambiguously, so I could easily imagine him getting killed off in a season or two.

Edited April 17, 2015 by FurryFury

[Minneapple]

POCs can only be sidekicks for the white female lead while she falls for only white men - which is raising concerns.

The love interests have been way less integral to the story so far than the so-called "sidekicks."

Liv has "fallen" for (and I'd debate that word) exactly one guy so far, Lowell. Which is more like a crush right now than anything else. Her romantic relationship with Major is finished for all intents and purposes since she doesn't want to zombify him.

Also, who's to say Liv and Ravi won't hook up two seasons down the road?

I could see it happening, especially if Ravi becomes a zombie.

[Sakura12]

They could have green skin for all I care, the characters just have be well written and interesting. 

 

However so far Clive and Ravi are more interesting than Peyton and Major who I wouldn't care if we never saw them again. 

[kieyra]

I think pigeonholing the characters into terms like "sidekick," and assuming Blaine will be a love interest, is not giving the show enough credit going forward.*

(*That said, if they try to redo Logan with Blaine, my head may explode. I barely survived "psychotic jackass as love interest" the first time around, and I wanted Veronica with Weevil anyway.)

[Cranberry]

From what I've read in interviews, Blaine was never intended to be a love interest. Here's one example: 

 

IGN: And we have heard that there is a zombie suitor down the line.
McIver: There’s a zombie suitor. A zombie gentleman caller. That’s a very exciting prospect for Liv. Again, it would have been great if Blaine had been a nice guy, but he’s not. There’s somebody she meets and respects and they have a really interesting journey together and the conflict that she has to struggle with with Major and her residual feelings for him and their predicament. They are two of those individual relationships that coexist – Well, not at the same time. There’s nothing happening at the same time. But it’s very hard to let go of somebody ,so her juggling those feelings is an interesting part of the show, I think. It’s nice for her to potentially find love again.

[Julia]

While I'll grant you that there is a big difference between the internal logic of the show and the external logic of the casting decisions, Liv isn't dating within her race, she's dating within her state of existence. Neither Clive nor Ravi are dead. 

 

Again, I don't think that closes the question of casting, but I think they've made it pretty explicit that Liv has disqualified anyone whose brains she might be tempted to eat, not POC. 

 

Me, I'm kind of tickled that actors who look like Clive and Ravi have leading roles in a weekly network show that brings them back every week.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Julia

[sjohnson]

Ravi's characterization is very, very sketchy. What he's doing is genuinely nuts, mad scientist complete with lightning capture tower and pipe organ and a hunchback named Igor, but he's played like a Watson the bumbling, genial sidekick. That said, unlike Babineau, whether he's even capable of sexual interest has been left blank even in situations where it should come up, as in deciding on housing. And that is still peculiar I think. Maybe it's been five episodes but they've had time enough to establish the sixteen year old brother is a budding stalker fixated on a grown woman. Liv doesn't want her brother killed but not even she cares enough for him to actually spend time with him, and they still tell us this!

[Cranberry]

Ravi's characterization is very, very sketchy. What he's doing is genuinely nuts, mad scientist complete with lightning capture tower and pipe organ and a hunchback named Igor, but he's played like a Watson the bumbling, genial sidekick. That said, unlike Babineau, whether he's even capable of sexual interest has been left blank even in situations where it should come up, as in deciding on housing. 

 

We know at least one thing:

 

Ravi: His paintings are very popular. Who doesn't love a vibrant abstract nude?

Liv: Hint - she eats brains. It looks like he was just trying to show off how many different colors of paint he owns.

Ravi: Oh, I love his work. I particularly enjoy the one that looks like a bright blue jacksie but I like my art provocative with a tinge of whimsy. Also blue is my favorite color and I'm a bit of an ass man. Overshare, right?

[kieyra]

I'm also not clear on why it's necessary for them to declare the sexual proclivities of every character at this point. I don't want my creators to be so terrified of not ticking the right boxes that they can't breathe.

[sjohnson]

^^^I don't pay much attention to what people say about their sex lives in real life. Not being telepathic I can't distinguish the plain truth from bragging or camouflage. Did his joke in the porn shop show any genuine familiarity with that kind of porn?

Edited April 18, 2015 by sjohnson

[Cranberry]

The joke I posted was from episode two, the one with the painter (Ravi enjoyed his nudes). I think he and Liv were joking about the porn in episode four, but I'm not sure. There weren't many lines about it.

 

Ravi (re: Liv): Her life is like the whorey version of that movie Memento. 

 

A few minutes later, after Ravi heads into the adult movies section:

Ravi (looking at a DVD cover): That's one way to take a shower.
Liv: Your desire for privacy in your living arrangements is starting to come into sharper focus.
Ravi: Oh, look, they actually have the whorey version of Memento.

[Morgan of Hed]

I'm just not seeing how "not a love interest for Liv" == stereotyped. Both POCs so far seem fairly well fleshed out.

[dohe]

I'd don't see Liv and Ravi as a viable couple, but Liv and Clive could be. But right now it does feel like the show, intentionally or not, is saying 'these white guys are potential love interests, these men of colour not so much'.

That is the same feel I am getting too. I also am disinterested in whether it is better to be a sidekick of Liv's or a lover of Liv's. To me that avoids the topic at hand. The question is why, in a redux of Veronica Mars, do the POCs play the platonic sidekicks to Liv while the white males play the lovers to Liv.

I think Clive and Liv would be fascinating together.

Edited April 18, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

Why do you believe that platonic friendships are not as important as romantic relationships? Why do you consider Ravi and Clive "lesser" because they're not sleeping with Liv when they have had more character development and screen time than Liv's love interests?

I don't think that asking these questions is avoiding the topic, either. To believe that Ravi and Clive are getting the short end of the stick here, one has to buy that love interests are more important to Liv and to the show than close friends are, and I don't.

[dohe]

Why do you believe that platonic friendships are not as important as romantic relationships? Why do you consider Ravi and Clive "lesser" because they're not sleeping with Liv when they have had more character development and screen time than Liv's love interests?

I don't think that asking these questions is avoiding the topic, either. To believe that Ravi and Clive are getting the short end of the stick here, one has to buy that love interests are more important to Liv and to the show than close friends are, and I don't.

Cranberry, none of my posts state that platonic friendships aren't as important as romantic relationships. Nor have I said Ravi or Clive are getting the short end of the stick in terms of characterization. To me, that does not even figure in the conversation. The topic is the handling Liv's love life. I am interested in why the show has a has a similar demarcation to Veronica Mars, a show from the same person, in which the white female lead has multiple close POC friends who are excluded from consideration in her love life while the white males in her life are treated as love interests.

[enlightenedbum]

Well, the demarcation is between the living and the dead for Liv.  Which throws out all of our minority characters besides anonymous goon #2 (who is... re-dead now) and the police captain.  And all of our recurring (well, in the credits; police captain is "recurring" barely) characters besides Blaine, who is the villain.  (VM S1 spoiler):

And not a villain in the Logan sense, but in the Aaron sense.

   Admittedly, this will probably extend to Lowell on Tuesday.  And sure they could have cast a POC in the role.  Though frankly the douchebag energy drink company marketing team is probably going to be pretty white if we want realism.

 

If we ignore that small problem, our options extend to her boss and the police detective she's actively conning.  Making the POC boss take advantage of their employee is a much worse idea than not having him date anyone ever.  And the whole active conning thing is such a sitcom cliche I'd be angry if they tried it.

 

Going back to Veronica Mars, Veronica and Wallace would never have worked.  For many reasons, but mostly because Wallace was too good a person to get bogged down in Veronica's nonsense.  Weevil... now Weevil and Veronica would have been fascinating.  Not good for either of them, as they'd be too busy wrestling with their own power dynamics to be happy, but it would have made for some really fun stories.  So I'll give you that one.

 

But I just don't see how it matters.  Are minority characters written as fully realized individuals with their own interests separate from the main character?  Or are they tokens.  And that's definitely true of Wallace and Weevil.  Hell, Weevil was the most consistently and realistically written character on that show, including Veronica.  Thus far, we don't have enough information about either Ravi or Clive to make this judgment, though we can say a few things about Ravi in particular.  He's smart, driven, willing to fight for what he thinks is right, idealistic, a bit of a gaming nerd (well, for network TV; level 70 in Diablo III is NOT hard), and observant.  Yes, he did move in with Major so that we can have stories merging Liv's work life and personal life and that's all to the good as far as I'm concerned.  I will join the people predicting he and Peyton will date at some point during the series.  Clive does need some more development outside of work, but to this point because the series is told so much from Liv's perspective (as was VM before it) we haven't had that chance until their interaction extends outside the case of the week.  Which is probably going to start happening with Blaine's mass murdering.

 

Of course, personally I'd kind of prefer Liv the celibate zombie.  Veronica's relationships were almost always the worst part of that show.

[Cranberry]

Cranberry, none of my posts state that platonic friendships aren't as important as romantic relationships. Nor have I said Ravi or Clive are getting the short end of the stick in terms of characterization. To me, that does not even figure in the conversation. The topic is the handling Liv's love life. I am interested in why the show has a has a similar demarcation to Veronica Mars, a show from the same person, in which the white female lead has multiple close POC friends who are excluded from consideration in her love life while the white males in her life are treated as love interests.

 

You don't outright state that, no. But if you believe that platonic friendships and romantic relationships are equally important, why are you so insistent that Liv should be sleeping with Ravi or Clive? Clearly she cares about and respects both of them; why does she have to cross that line between friendship and romance for you to be happy with the show's handling of their characters?

 

As others have mentioned, Liv's consideration right now is "is this guy alive and will I accidentally zombify him if I try to sleep with him?," which complicates matters. Also, Ravi is her boss, which further complicates matters.

 

Speaking of that, I reject the idea that Ravi and Clive are sidekicks (as you keep calling them), too. Ravi is Liv's boss. He's not only more knowledgeable than she is about everything work-related, but about zombie physiology as well. He's also the one who gives her orders (of a sort); she looks to him for approval to cut out of work and investigate cases. They're friends, but he's technically her superior. Clive is not a sidekick, either; Liv may be able to guilt him into investigating cases he doesn't want to (even Major can do that), but he doesn't follow her lead when it comes to investigations and the fourth episode culminated in her apologizing to him for not listening to him and not trusting him. Neither man fits the sidekick mold, as far as I can see.

 

I agree that it would be nice to see Liv romantically interested in someone of a different race. But again, we're five episodes in. We've only just met Lowell. We have no idea how long the character is even sticking around, let alone if the writers consider him an "endgame" kind of guy. There's so much time for Liv to date different people. It's too early to assume that all POC characters will be sexless or that Liv will only ever date white guys.

[CinnamonCat]

One thing I think it's important to remember with Veronica Mars is that RT and co. weren't able to have Veronica date a man of colour -- the network prohibited it. I also believe that, in season 3, no one in the main cast was allowed to date a POC. 

 

As for iZombie, I won't pretend to know a lot about racial issues -- in entertainment or otherwise. However, one thing I do know is that I don't want Liv to date either Clive or Ravi, period. I much prefer their dynamic as a platonic one, regardless of the characters' race. I also agree with everyone else who said it's just too early. The characters are still getting established, we're still getting to know them. Narratively speaking, it makes sense for their love lives to remain untouched for the time being. Of course, if this trend continues, we definitely have a problem.

Oh, and doesn't Peyton, too, qualify as a non-sexual sidekick, by everything we've seen so far?

[Cranberry]

Peyton's actually the only one I'd classify as a sidekick right now. She seems to exist to toss out one-liners, give Liv advice (which Liv doesn't take), and snap at her when Liv takes advantage of her while working a case. I know nothing about her other than that she and Liv have been best friends for years and she's an assistant district attorney.

[dohe]

All the extraneous conversation is skipping around the salient point of discussion. Why are the multiple POC males not depicted as possible love interests for the white female lead while the multiple white males are? Therefore if the concern is a desire for Ravi and Clive to maintain a friends only position to Liv and that was the intent of the show, why were white males cast in the parts of Major and Lowell while POCs were cast in the parts of the detective and Liv's sidekick. Unless we are supposed to believe that this sort of casting was not on purpose. Sorry but I am not buying.

Edited April 18, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

Would you rather see a POC in a less-meaty role (I think the majority of posters here consider Major way more boring than Ravi) just so that the main character could sleep with someone of another race?

[FurryFury]

Going back to Veronica Mars, Veronica and Wallace would never have worked.  For many reasons, but mostly because Wallace was too good a person to get bogged down in Veronica's nonsense.  Weevil... now Weevil and Veronica would have been fascinating.  Not good for either of them, as they'd be too busy wrestling with their own power dynamics to be happy, but it would have made for some really fun stories.  So I'll give you that one.

 

As much as I've shipped Logan/Veronica (and I'm not ashamed of it - it was a fascinatingly dysfunctional relationship filled with passion, mistrust and with flashes of genuine friendship, I'm not sure it should have had a happy ending, but it's one of two my all-time OTPs and I will defend it to the death), the idea of Weevil did cross my mind. However, it made a lot of sense why they never hooked up. As screwed up as he was, Logan still was part of Veronica's world, while Weevil was someone fundamentally different. As much as Veronica liked to pretend she was removed from her former circle, you can never really outgrow your past.

 

As for Wallace/Veronica, frankly, the idea is just squicky. Mostly because of how much focus has been put on their friendship, but also because it's just out of character for Wallace.

 

Why are the multiple POC males not depicted as possible love interests for the white female lead while the multiple white males are?

 

Because not all writers think in terms of POCs/non-POCs when creating characters? (I wouldn't be surprised if both Ravi and Clive are a result of color-blind casting). And really, two of the 3 main characters actually ARE PoC. Why should they necessarily be love interests, and from the get-go? Also, this show doesn't seem to care about romance as much as some CW shows do, so far. All romance on the show is kinda shallow and feels like an afterthought, frankly. I really think it's possible for Ravi to become an LI down the line, especially if his development goes the way I suspect/hope it will, which will provide more drama. And even if it won't happen, it's fair to hope/believe tat his and Clive's relationships with Liv won't be sidelined in favor of love interests.

Edited April 18, 2015 by FurryFury

[dohe]

Would you rather see a POC in a less-meaty role (I think the majority of posters here consider Major way more boring than Ravi) just so that the main character could sleep with someone of another race?

Cranberry, being a love interest for Liv and having a less meaty role are not mutually exclusive. Just as I find the rationalizations given for why Ravi and Clive should not be potential love interests for Liv without merit, I find the notion that the show had colorblind casting to be hard to swallow. That the show just happened, as with Veronica Mars, to precisely fit this demarcation is what makes it so troubling.

Edited April 18, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

Why do you want them to be love interests to Liv specifically, then? Why is that better than their current position as her close friends/respected colleagues?

 

Also, you consider "they're not zombies and she can only date zombies" to be without merit? Why?

[dohe]

Why do you want them to be love interests to Liv specifically, then? Why is that better than their current position as close friends/respected colleagues?

This is a show with multiple POC males and multiple white males. To have the multiple POC males disqualified as potential love interests for the white female lead while having multiple white males as love interests for the white female lead is not something that should be shrugged away with rationalizations. Why is it better for one of the POC males to be one of the love interests? Because it demonstrates an openness to interracial romance instead of promoting, unknowingly or not, a shutting down of that route.

Why was the show cast in a way in which the prominent POCs are depicted as friends but not potential love interests for the white female lead while show has already had multiple white males serving the role of love interest for the white female lead? Whether it is better or not to be a love interest for Liv is besides the point.

Edited April 18, 2015 by dohe

[BPOX]

Why do you want them to be love interests to Liv specifically, then? Why is that better than their current position as close friends/respected colleagues?

 

Well it makes perfect sense to me. I'm not passionate about it, and I'm please to just see a diverse cast of interesting characters, but I get it. People used to outlaw interracial dating and it's somewhat bothersome that it still seems taboo or distasteful to enough of the audience that people don't want it on TV. It's one more sign that POC aren't quite considered full fledged people on TV much of the time. Also, it would make some sense for her to choose someone a touch unconventional in some way to go along with the show's theme of Liv's trying to step out of a life of living upto mundane expectations.

 

Oh and I'm a terrible shipper. I want to ship all the ships, so I'm sure I'll go with what I'm offered, but if anyone is asking I'm leaning towards Babs. I like his growing appreciation for Liv. Ravi is too off for me. How can he not be at all bothered by the whole zombie thing?

Edited April 19, 2015 by BPOX

[Julia]

I would argue that Ravi and Clive are the only two characters who aren't stereotyped. I only wish the stereotypes for POC on american TV were brilliant, highly-trained but humane scientist / head of a municipal department who our heroine works for and driven, out of the box cop.

The characters I've seen roughly a jillion times are the friends and connections Liv brings to the table, who are pretty much bog standard procedural dramedy clichés, including the monotonously righteous ex who's still hanging around, the street punk turned shadowy criminal mastermind, and the charming, gorgeous, rich, warm, funny, sensitive, talented [your glamorous profession here] who fell instantly in love with our heroine across a crowded room. Which is to say, all the potential love interests.

I'm not sure what a positive alternative would be. Should the friendzoned (because she works with them and they're not dead) characters with the actual personalities and screentime have been cast with white actors? Because right now, the only person who isn't friendzoned is, potentially, Lowell. And Lowell could absolutely have been played by an actor of color,* but if that had happened Ravi and Clive would still have been friendzoned.

*As much as I adore Bradley James, Lowell could certainly have been cast with one of the actors who play Ravi and Clive, if they were willing to give up the meaty roles with all the screentime they have now

Edited April 18, 2015 by Julia

[Cranberry]

Why is it better for one of the POC males to be one of the love interests? Because it demonstrates an openness to interracial romance instead of promoting, unknowingly or not, a shutting down of that route.

 

I understand that, and I agree. Why Liv specifically, though? Would you be happy if Peyton dated one of them? What if they had love interests outside of the characters we've seen so far?

[dohe]

Julia, the actors playing Ravi and Clive are not the only POC male actors in Hollywood. So your belief that if Lowell was played by a POC male it would mean the actors playing Ravi or Clive are the only two choices to play the role of Lowell doesn't seem to hold up all that well.

 

I understand that, and I agree. Why Liv specifically, though? Would you be happy if Peyton dated one of them? What if they had love interests outside of the characters we've seen so far?

Liv is the lead. There has been no other female on the show which has been given much screentime. Peyton has barely had any screentime. So to be frank, I'd be a bit cynical if Peyton entered an interracial relationship with Ravi or Clive or another character played by a POC male. It would seem like a transparent look we aren't avoiding interracial romance angle when clearly the show is avoiding that with the lead who has almost all the screentime. It would be the classic example of here's some scraps much like Veronica Mars's Dad dating Wallace's mom.

As is, this is really about the demarcation concerning the female lead.

Edited April 19, 2015 by dohe

[Cranberry]

Okay, so you believe that if there's an interracial relationship on this show (does this extend to every show?), it has to involve the main character in order to be legitimate? I don't feel the same way. I'm thinking of all of the relationships involving core characters but not the main character on all of the other shows I watch or have watched, and I've never thought of any of them as scraps, regardless of the characters' races or sexualities.

 

And yet again, it's been five episodes. There's plenty of time for characters like Peyton to get much more development.

[Julia]

Julia, the actors playing Ravi and Clive are not the only POC male actors. So your belief that if Lowell was played by a POC male it would mean the actors playing Ravi or Clive are the only two choices to play the role of Lowell doesn't seem to hold up all that well.

No, I don't think that's at all tenable, which is why I'm relieved not to have said it. What I did say is that there are strong established reasons for those two characters to be friendzoned, so no matter who plays them they're going to be friendzoned. There is, however, a single character who isn't friendzoned, and I think either of the actors playing the friendzoned characters could play him as well as the caucasian actor who is playing him now. I simply don't think they would be interested in giving up their vanishingly rare well-written leading characters to play a recurring character who gets to boff the leading lady.

[dohe]

Cranberry, no I don't believe that there is a guideline that should be set for every show. The reason the discussion is arising over this specific show is:

1. This is the 2nd time this show runner has made a show about a white female lead where the prominent multiple POC male characters are the platonic pals while multiple white male characters get to be considered as love interests for the white female lead.

2. The divide between the multiple POC males, shown as having no romantic interest in the beautiful, charismatic white female lead and vice versa, and the white males, who are romantically interested in Liv and vice versa, is so transparent it is hilarious.

 

No, I don't think that's at all tenable, which is why I'm relieved not to have said it. What I did say is that there are strong established reasons for those two characters to be friendzoned, so no matter who plays them they're going to be friendzoned. There is, however, a single character who isn't friendzoned, and I think either of the actors playing the friendzoned characters could play him as well as the caucasian actor who is playing him now. I simply don't think they would be interested in giving up their vanishingly rare well-written leading characters to play a recurring character who gets to boff the leading lady.

I have not seen a remotely strong reason that has been given why either Ravi or Clive shouldn't be a potential love interest for Liv. I have seen rationalizations that hold no weight at all and are rather predictable in their tone. I also would not be shocked at all that if Bradley James was playing Ravi or Robert Buckley was playing Clive that these I think they should just be friends comments would decline rapidly. Of course if James was playing Ravi or Buckley was playing Clive they would already be depicted as love interests. If Buckley played Clive, angst over Liv being in love with him but unable to be with him sexually would be played out just as it is now being played out between Liv and Major.

However if we want to say that Ravi or Clive somehow fit characterizations that should be disallowed the possibility of being a love interest solely on the character - despite Major being depicted as of romantic interest to Liv despite her fear of infecting him, then a simple question. Why were POCs given roles which are designed to be friendzoned while white males are given roles where they can be love interests?

Edited April 19, 2015 by dohe