Kim Wexler: She Has a Two-Year Plan

[PeterPirate]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:34 AM, qtpye said:

Did anyone else think it bizarre that Kim was not angrier at Jimmy for getting her into the terrible doc review position in the first place?

I remember Chuck saying that their mother could never be angry at Jimmy because he was just so lovable. It never seems like Kim ever has any issues with Jimmy's actions, no matter how bad.  In fact, now she wants to use his "going down the bad road" superpowers for her own issues.

Kim's attraction to Jimmy is more of a mystery to me than her desire for revenge against Howard.  I absolutely love the conversation between Kim and Chuck in Rebecca.  I know there are some who thing Chuck was being disingenuous, but my take is that Chuck was being sincere about the things he told Kim about Jimmy.  And Kim did not object to anything Chuck said.  She knew Jimmy was trouble but chose to stick with him anyway.  

 

On 4/12/2022 at 5:34 AM, qtpye said:

My biggest guess is that Kim resents Howard and Kevin from Mesa Verde because these people have great power just by the advantage of their birth.

I think that's true, but I also think that Kim is attracted to the thrill of being able to con people.  When she quit working at Schweikart and Cokely, she took the cork stopper from the bottle of Zafiro Añejo from her desk.   

 

23 hours ago, Bannon said:

Then, when Howard gets another freighter full of cash delivered to him, by Kim shaking the trees, he doubles down on stupid, and continues to punish Kim. To the point that HHM loses Mesa Verde. 

Except that Howard did not "lose" Mesa Verde.  Kevin Wachtell chose HHM, but then Jimmy committed forgery to steal the client for Kim.  

Edited April 13, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

58 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim's attraction to Jimmy is more of a mystery to me than her desire for revenge against Howard.  I absolutely love the conversation between Kim and Chuck in Rebecca.  I know there are some who thing Chuck was being disingenuous, but my take is that Chuck was being sincere about the things he told Kim about Jimmy.  And Kim did not object to anything Chuck said.  She knew Jimmy was trouble but chose to stick with him anyway.  

 

I think that's true, but I also think that Kim is attracted to the thrill of being able to con people.  When she quit working at Schweikart and Cokely, she took the cork from the bottle of Zafiro Añejo from her desk.   

 

Except that Howard did not "lose" Mesa Verde.  Kevin Wachtell chose HHM, but then Jimmy committed forgery to steal the client for Kim.  

Yes, and thus lost Mesa Verde. The acme of strategy is to foreclose any chance of defeat. Stupidly punishing Kim, for no other reason than his being embarrassed by Jimmy's antics, greatly decreased the odds of Mesa Verde being a HHM cash cow; Howard couldn't know for a fact that Chuck would be able to keep it together long enough to ride into HHM offices, to meet with Kevin and Paige, thus saving Howard's  ego-driven ass, who idioticallly alienated the only employee that had a close connection to Mesa Verde. Up until the time Howard finally stood up to Chuck, followed by Jimmy giving Howard a come to Jesus speech about getting over himself, being a pro, and running the g%&#!×*#d business, Howard largely behaved like an entitled numbskull.

The brilliance of this writing is that the characters are fully formed and complex. They have their inherent traits, but they are shaped by each other and their environments and circumstances, too. Slippin' Jimmy, always looking for the easy path, is also the guy who delayed gratification for years, grinding in the mail room, in hope of nothing more than working with his brother, and being with Kim. Kim, from deprived circumstances, clawing her way to respectability via sheer willpower, also has a taste for risky transgression. Mike's attempt to adhere to a moral code is constantly derailed by his grief-driven guilt and anger. Howard is a spoiled ass who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple, and deep down has the insecurity that so often is consistent with that, but when challenged, he's capable of rising above it. If Howard, and perhaps Nacho, end up being the characters who improve themselves in this story, to achieve a kind of nobility (like Hank in BB) that might be excellent writing.

  It goes on and on. When it comes to illuminating psychological complexity, this is as good as any writing I've seen in t.v. or film.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bannon
added remarks about Howard and Nacho

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim's attraction to Jimmy is more of a mystery to me than her desire for revenge against Howard.  I absolutely love the conversation between Kim and Chuck in Rebecca.  I know there are some who thing Chuck was being disingenuous, but my take is that Chuck was being sincere about the things he told Kim about Jimmy.  And Kim did not object to anything Chuck said.  She knew Jimmy was trouble but chose to stick with him anyway.  

Yes, what does Kim see in Jimmy?

Don't get me wrong, I think Jimmy can be adorable and Bob O is not a bad-looking guy but the truth is that everyone in the show world is puzzled because they think Kim can do so much better.

Actually, they think Kim SHOULD try to aim for more in a partner than what Jimmy provides. Of course, we see the caring side of Jimmy and how he can be incredibly supportive and really takes care of the people he loves but the other people in the show do not see that.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

If Howard, and perhaps Nacho, end up being the characters who improve themselves in this story, to achieve a kind of nobility (like Hank in BB) that might be excellent writing

I have watched BB a million times. It is one of my all-time favorite shows. 

I have actually totally changed my mind on Hank. When I first saw the show I looked at Hank as a jerk who turned into a tragic hero and now I realize that he was weighed down with his own issues of toxic masculinity and his desire to catch Walt at the end was due to some part his ego and need to be an alpha male.

It would be interesting to see how Kim's story ends in the universe of the show. One of my favorite scenes in the show is when Jimmy approached Kim about suing HHM when Howard sticks her in Doc Review. Kim says some of the best lines I have ever heard in a character (particularly a female character):

1. She totally sees through Jimmy's bullshit. She knows Jimmy is miserable at Davis & Main and is using her to get out of his contract.

2. She tells Jimmy that it was her decisions that got her into the mess with Howard and Jimmy does not save her because it is up to her to save herself.

Everyone always warned Kim that Jimmy will drag her down. I feel like the writers are too smart to go for something so obvious. Again, I can't wait for the show to return.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by qtpye

[Cinnabon]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Yes, what does Kim see in Jimmy?

Don't get me wrong, I think Jimmy can be adorable and Bob O is not a bad-looking guy but the truth is that everyone in the show world is puzzled because they think Kim can do so much better.

Actually, they think Kim SHOULD try to aim for more in a partner than what Jimmy provides. Of course, we see the caring side of Jimmy and how he can be incredibly supportive and really takes care of the people he loves but the other people in the show do not see that.

I have watched BB a million times. It is one of my all-time favorite shows. 

I have actually totally changed my mind on Hank. When I first saw the show I looked at Hank as a jerk who turned into a tragic hero and now I realize that he was weighed down with his own issues of toxic masculinity and his desire to catch Walt at the end was due to some part his ego and need to be an alpha male.

It would be interesting to see how Kim's story ends in the universe of the show. One of my favorite scenes in the show is when Jimmy approached Kim about suing HHM when Howard sticks her in Doc Review. Kim says some of the best lines I have ever heard in a character (particularly a female character):

1. She totally sees through Jimmy's bullshit. She knows Jimmy is miserable at Davis & Main and is using her to get out of his contract.

2. She tells Jimmy that it was her decisions that got her into the mess with Howard and Jimmy does not save her because it is up to her to save herself.

Everyone always warned Kim that Jimmy will drag her down. I feel like the writers are too smart to go for something so obvious. Again, I can't wait for the show to return.

 

I agree completely about Hank. I thought he was a pompous asshole at first, but he came to be one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. Regarding Kim, sometimes the heart just wants what it wants. I don’t think anyone else could understand either Jimmy or Kim the way they now understand each other. 

[Bannon]

I just don't see a way for this to end well for Kim, either in the material sense, or in the sense of the nobility of her character. Her contempt for Howard is entirely reasonable, but what's she's proposing to engage in to express that contempt just can't be ethically justified in any way. The path she's chosen is evil, and what we know from BB certainly seems to suggest a bad outcome for her. Maybe she'll turn away from it, maybe she'll get lucky and come away unscathed. It'll be fun to see how it unfolds, but my guess is a tragic end for her.

As to Hank, his pride, like so many in BB, was his (and most tragically, his partner Gomey's) demise, but he developed into a person with a tragic nobility, from where he started, which was a real jerk. I'm interested to see if a BCS character has a similar arc. Howard and Nacho seem like the most likely candidates.

I really do hope somebody has a nontragic ending, but I can understand why it may not be written that way. 

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I just don't see a way for this to end well for Kim, either in the material sense, or in the sense of the nobility of her character. Her contempt for Howard is entirely reasonable, but what's she's proposing to engage in to express that contempt just can't be ethically justified in any way. The path she's chosen is evil, and what we know from BB certainly seems to suggest a bad outcome for her. Maybe she'll turn away from it, maybe she'll get lucky and come away unscathed. It'll be fun to see how it unfolds, but my guess is a tragic end for her.

As to Hank, his pride, like so many in BB, was his (and most tragically, his partner Gomey's) demise, but he developed into a person with a tragic nobility, from where he started, which was a real jerk. I'm interested to see if a BCS character has a similar arc. Howard and Nacho seem like the most likely candidates.

I really do hope somebody has a nontragic ending, but I can understand why it may not be written that way. 

I’m not convinced that Kim will actually act on any of her revenge fantasies. I guess we’ll see.

[PeterPirate]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yes, and thus lost Mesa Verde. The acme of strategy is to foreclose any chance of defeat.

And there's the rub.  Had Howard not banished Kim to the Cornfield, it would have left open the possibility that Jimmy, abetted by Kim, might damage Howard/HHM again.  

I'm not a lawyer so my perspective is not to advocate for any particular point of view.  I do investing and my approach is weigh the upside potential against the downside risks of any strategy.  I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Howard's actions, just that there was no way to completely foreclose the chance of defeat.  Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.  

.....

I have no doubt we will see Kim and Gene.  My guess is that she will hide out in Mexico with the cartel.  Once you choose the path of the Dark Side, forever will it control your destiny.  

[Irlandesa]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

Did anyone else think it bizarre that Kim was not angrier at Jimmy for getting her into the terrible doc review position in the first place?

That was probably one of the first hints I think we had that she was more permissive about Jimmy's antics than I thought she would be. She knew that ad wouldn't fly and,  if I remember correctly, he lied to her about having permission to air the ad.  Or intending to air it.

And when confronted by Howard, she could have admitted that.  Instead, she chose to remain silent even though she likely knew she'd get into trouble for it.

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yes, and thus lost Mesa Verde. The acme of strategy is to foreclose any chance of defeat. Stupidly punishing Kim, for no other reason than his being embarrassed by Jimmy's antics, greatly decreased the odds of Mesa Verde being a HHM cash cow; Howard couldn't know for a fact that Chuck would be able to keep it together long enough to ride into HHM offices, to meet with Kevin and Paige, thus saving Howard's  ego-driven ass, who idioticallly alienated the only employee that had a close connection to Mesa Verde.

In this discussion about Mesa Verde, people always talk like Mesa Verde was a must have for Howard/HHM and therefore they shouldn't have played hardball with Kim.  Mesa Verde was a great client for them.  Lucrative.  But I don't think the show ever even suggested that HHM would be in trouble without it as a client.  For Kim, it was close to a must have for her to go out on her own.  For HHM, it was a "it'd be really nice to have."

And that's why, when Kim resigned, Howard was gracious and wrote off her debt.  He then got ready to remind Mesa Verde why they'd be wise to stay.

And when Jimmy got it back through fraud, driving Chuck bananas, he tried to encourage Chuck to just let it go.

I think Howard has had an imposter complex trying to live up to the firm that his father and Chuck created and that likely drove him to be harsher with Kim than he needed to be but I also think he was wholly prepared for the consequences.  The only thing that truly threw him was Chuck's death.

9 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Her then pulls her aside to bad mouth Jimmy and tell her what he thinks Jimmy did (bowling balls, hookers). What does he hope to accomplish by telling her this? Is he trying to break them up? (Weren’t they already married by then?) She is understandably incredibly offended and angry at him for this.

Are they married? 

Anyway, I think Howard thinks he's talking to a reasonable person who might be concerned about their partner doing unreasonable things.  He has a habit of thinking more highly of people than they deserve to be thought of.  He hero worshipped Chuck so much that he let himself be a pawn in the sibling war.  He couldn't help but feel affection for Jimmy.  And he mostly seems to admire Kim's ethics and talent even when he disagrees with her. 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

And there's the rub.  Had Howard not banished Kim to the Cornfield, it would have left open the possibility that Jimmy, abetted by Kim, might damage Howard/HHM again.  

I'm not a lawyer so my perspective is not to advocate for any particular point of view.  I do investing and my approach is weigh the upside potential against the downside risks of any strategy.  I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Howard's actions, just that there was no way to completely foreclose the chance of defeat.  Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.  

.....

I have no doubt we will see Kim and Gene.  My guess is that she will hide out in Mexico with the cartel.  Once you choose the path of the Dark Side, forever will it control your destiny.  

That's just it. You have one employee who has a close connection with a cash cow. Absent serious ethical/legal concerns, there's just no upside to alienating that employee. It's all significant risk, with practically zero potential reward.  

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

That was probably one of the first hints I think we had that she was more permissive about Jimmy's antics than I thought she would be. She knew that ad wouldn't fly and,  if I remember correctly, he lied to her about having permission to air the ad.  Or intending to air it.

And when confronted by Howard, she could have admitted that.  Instead, she chose to remain silent even though she likely knew she'd get into trouble for it.

In this discussion about Mesa Verde, people always talk like Mesa Verde was a must have for Howard/HHM and therefore they shouldn't have played hardball with Kim.  Mesa Verde was a great client for them.  Lucrative.  But I don't think the show ever even suggested that HHM would be in trouble without it as a client.  For Kim, it was close to a must have for her to go out on her own.  For HHM, it was a "it'd be really nice to have."

And that's why, when Kim resigned, Howard was gracious and wrote off her debt.  He then got ready to remind Mesa Verde why they'd be wise to stay.

And when Jimmy got it back through fraud, driving Chuck bananas, he tried to encourage Chuck to just let it go.

I think Howard has had an imposter complex trying to live up to the firm that his father and Chuck created and that likely drove him to be harsher with Kim than he needed to be but I also think he was wholly prepared for the consequences.  The only thing that truly threw him was Chuck's death.

Are they married? 

Anyway, I think Howard thinks he's talking to a reasonable person who might be concerned about their partner doing unreasonable things.  He has a habit of thinking more highly of people than they deserve to be thought of.  He hero worshipped Chuck so much that he let himself be a pawn in the sibling war.  He couldn't help but feel affection for Jimmy.  And he mostly seems to admire Kim's ethics and talent even when he disagrees with her. 

Losing MV did not have to be an existential threat to HHM to make it extraordinarily dumb for Howard to behave as he did. The purpose of HHM is to generate profit. MV had the potential to significantly increase profit. If Howard is going to make a personnel decision that greatly increases the odds of losing MV, which this personnel decision obviously did, there ought to be a better reason for it than "I'm embarassed that Jimmy McGill acted like an ass after I recommended that he be given a job by a law firm that HHM gave nice slice of the Piper pie to". 

[qtpye]

27 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

He has a habit of thinking more highly of people than they deserve to be thought of.  He hero worshipped Chuck so much that he let himself be a pawn in the sibling war.  He couldn't help but feel affection for Jimmy.  And he mostly seems to admire Kim's ethics and talent even when he disagrees with her. 

That's an interesting point about Howard. He really does think people are coming from a healthy place in their dealings and it sometimes screws him over.

[Bannon]

Just now, qtpye said:

That's an interesting point about Howard. He really does think people are coming from a healthy place in their dealings and it sometimes screws him over.

Howard's pomposity gets a little tedious, but he's not a fundamentally immoral person. He was just coasting for years, not earning his keep, until he finally decided to stand up to Chuck, and then Jimmy gave him a verbal kick in the ass. It's great writing to have it shown that Howard is not organically stupid, he'd just become lazy, and the right stimuli snapped him out of it. Trying to hire Jimmy back was smart; Howard had no way of knowing that the Jimmy who once could be a valuable employee was now dead. It was also great writing to have Howard recognize that Jimmy's outbursts are a result of grief and pain. If Kim and Jimmy go through with their plan to ruin Howard, I hope it fails.

[PeterPirate]

39 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That's just it. You have one employee who has a close connection with a cash cow. Absent serious ethical/legal concerns, there's just no upside to alienating that employee. It's all significant risk, with practically zero potential reward.  

One needs to consider all of the possible strategies.  Not banishing Kim to the Cornfield had significant upside potential and significant downside risk.  As has been noted, Mesa Verde was not all that important to HHM.  Whereas keeping Kim and Jimmy around represented a genuine existential threat to the firm.   

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

One needs to consider all of the possible strategies.  Not banishing Kim to the Cornfield had significant upside potential and significant downside risk.  As has been noted, Mesa Verde was not all that important to HHM.  Whereas keeping Kim and Jimmy around represented a genuine existential threat to the firm.   

Kim was an existential threat? How? If an employee is an existential threat by being around, the only smart thing to do is to fire the employee, not demote the employee.

When a business thinks retaining a lucrative client isn't all that important, that's a business that needs new management.

[Crashcourse]

21 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If Kim and Jimmy go through with their plan to ruin Howard, I hope it fails.

Yes, so do I.

[Irlandesa]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When a business thinks retaining a lucrative client isn't all that important, that's a business that needs new management.

HHM is a private, family-owned firm.  That gives them more flexibility to make decisions they think are best for the overall strategy of the business.  That gives them a little more freedom to be selective about clients and personnel.  They get to decide if they're willing to risk more profit for fewer headaches.

HHM has a carefully crafted brand.  It has a reputation.  That reputation, by the way, is what helped Kim close on Mesa Verde.  Kim thought she could get out of the doghouse by bringing in clients but bringing in clients isn't what Howard was worried about when it came to her.

Howard made a calculated risk that even if Kim decided to walk, he could retain the client...that what HHM could offer was worth more than a specific lawyer.  And he was right. 

All of the "it could have gone all wrong for him" theories can't change the fact that it didn't go wrong until Jimmy broke into Chuck's house.

 

[PeterPirate]

34 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Kim was an existential threat? How?

Two of the three partners at Davis and Main thought Jimmy's Sandpiper commercial was bad enough to terminate him.  And Kim had been in position to stop it.  How many times can a prestigious law firm allow someone like Jimmy to embarrass them before they get a bad reputation in the legal community and the high-end clients start heading out the door?  

And, as we saw, Jimmy's maneuver with the Mesa Verde documents and Chuck's cell phone led to Chuck's eventual suicide, which also nearly brought down HHM.  

 

34 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If an employee is an existential threat by being around, the only smart thing to do is to fire the employee, not demote the employee.  

 Real life is not so binary.  Each of us faces an existential threat when we get behind the wheel, but that doesn't stop us from driving.  It's all about risk management. 

 

34 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When a business thinks retaining a lucrative client isn't all that important, that's a business that needs new management.

Howard did not think that retaining Mesa Verde was not important.  He brought Chuck in to fight to keep MV on as a client.  

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

HHM is a private, family-owned firm.  That gives them more flexibility to make decisions they think are best for the overall strategy of the business.  That gives them a little more freedom to be selective about clients and personnel.  They get to decide if they're willing to risk more profit for fewer headaches.

HHM has a carefully crafted brand.  It has a reputation.  That reputation, by the way, is what helped Kim close on Mesa Verde.  Kim thought she could get out of the doghouse by bringing in clients but bringing in clients isn't what Howard was worried about when it came to her.

Howard made a calculated risk that even if Kim decided to walk, he could retain the client...that what HHM could offer was worth more than a specific lawyer.  And he was right. 

All of the "it could have gone all wrong for him" theories can't change the fact that it didn't go wrong until Jimmy broke into Chuck's house.

 

What headaches? Jimmy made an ass of himself, for a very brief time, completely within the walls of a law office 60 miles away, that Howard just cut in for a few million bucks, in a slam dunk class action. That's such a minor headache, compared to the revenue, that it's barely worth mentioning. Yes, it's a closely held firm, so Howard can get away with his dumb management, just like he was able to get away with his dumb management of his relationship with Chuck for years. Howard is implicitly admitting his management performance has been poor, when he tries to hire Jimmy back.

[qtpye]

This is rather lengthy but I think it is worth the time.

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Two of the three partners at Davis and Main thought Jimmy's Sandpiper commercial was bad enough to terminate him.  And Kim had been in position to stop it.  How many times can a prestigious law firm allow someone like Jimmy to embarrass them before they get a bad reputation in the legal community and the high-end clients start heading out the door?  

And, as we saw, Jimmy's maneuver with the Mesa Verde documents and Chuck's cell phone led to Chuck's eventual suicide, which also nearly brought down HHM.  

 

 Real life is not so binary.  Each of us faces an existential threat when we get behind the wheel, but that doesn't stop us from driving.  It's all about risk management. 

 

Howard did not think that retaining Mesa Verde was not important.  He brought Chuck in to fight to keep MV on as a 

Howard saw Jimmy and Kim as such existential threats that he tried to later hire Jimmy back. In other words, he never actually saw them as existential threats. He was just embarassed, and had his ego bruised.

As far as life being binary, all I can tell you is that I've managed a lot of people, and when I saw an employee as an existential threat to the business,  more than anybody else in such a job, in a nontrivial way, I started the termination process.

[Bannon]

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

This is rather lengthy but I think it is worth the time.

That's really, really, good analysis. It does give some insight as to what has puzzled me most, which is Kim's greatly increased appetite for risk. Like a lot of addictions, it's a gradual process.

.

 

.

[PeterPirate]

10 hours ago, Bannon said:

As far as life being binary, all I can tell you is that I've managed a lot of people, and when I saw an employee as an existential threat to the business,  more than anybody else in such a job, in a nontrivial way, I started the termination process.

Really?  Suppose that employee was more productive and brought in more revenue than the others?  You wouldn't consider trying some disciplinary measures to correct their flaws?

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

Really?  Suppose that employee was more productive and brought in more revenue than the others?  You wouldn't consider trying some disciplinary measures to correct their flaws?

You don't risk the entire business, to gain the extra productivity of one employee. Ever. You think Kim didn't make an effort to stop Jimmy from running an entirely ethical, highly effective, but unvetted commercial? You take corrective action (although sticking her in doc review was dumb), because an unvetted commercial is not in and of itself an existential threat, and there was nothing unethical about that commercial. You find out Jimmy and Kim perpetrated a fraud on the court, to get a  judge to lean on a prosecutor for a plea deal?  Kim could be the best rainmaker in the firm by a gigantic margin, but she's gotta get clipped with extreme prejudice, because a lawyer committing crimes while employed by the firm threatens the firm's very existence.

Kim's increasing appetite for risk is one of the more interesting aspects of this story.

[Cinnabon]

I don’t think it was Kim’s responsibility to try and stop Jimmy from airing the commercial. 🤷‍♀️

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t think it was Kim’s responsibility to try and stop Jimmy from airing the commercial. 🤷‍♀️

No, but she should have asked Jimmy if he had gotten permission from Davis and Main to air it.  She knew from the Squat Cobbler gag that Jimmy was a loose cannon.  If for no other reason, she should have thought about the blowback she could receive.  

Edited April 13, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

57 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t think it was Kim’s responsibility to try and stop Jimmy from airing the commercial. 🤷‍♀️

I don't either, and if Howard and Cliff were any good at their jobs, they'd recognize that the biggest takeaway was that the commercial worked. If they don't want their firms' names associated with such ads, the obvious solution is to set Jimmy up in his own firm, with its own name, to do nothing but obtain Piper residents for the class, and then refer them over to HHM, and D&M. Just contractually obligate Jimmy to run the ads by Howard and Cliff first, with the promise that anything within ethical bounds is a go. Measure the results, adjust accordingly. In other words, earn your keep as a senior partner by, ya' know, managing  the talent, flaws and all. 25 years ago, an arrangement like that was a bit unusual, but by 2010 or so it was pretty common.

A couple more things I've liked about the show is that it fully illuminates that the criminal justice system is largely a factory for guilty pleas, without regard for the public interest, public safety, or actual justice, and that businesses that were once managed with enough competence to become quite successful can maintain appearances and coast for years, even after management performance  degrades significantly. Until Howard snapped back to life, Schweikart was the only senior lawyer management person who wasn't mailing it in.

 

 

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

No, but she should have asked Jimmy if he had gotten permission from Davis and Main to air it.  She knew from the Squat Cobbler gag that Jimmy was a loose cannon.  If for no other reason, she should have thought about the blowback she would receive.  

She didn’t work with Jimmy and I don’t think she should be held responsible for things shared in their personal time. But I see your point.

[PeterPirate]

34 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

She didn’t work with Jimmy and I don’t think she should be held responsible for things shared in their personal time. But I see your point.

Yes, I should add that Kim was not responsible because of her personal relationship with Jimmy, but because she was the one who lobbied Howard to recommend Jimmy to Clifford Main.  

[Cinnabon]

Just now, PeterPirate said:

Yes, I should add that Kim was not responsible because of her personal relationship with Jimmy, but because she was the one who lobbied Howard to recommend Jimmy to Clifford Main.  

Yes, it’s a grey area to me. And even if Kim had advised Jimmy to rethink the commercial, he would have done what he wanted anyway. 

[PeterPirate]

Excellent psychological analysis of Kim and Jimmy.  

This is the third of three videos made by this person.  

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Crashcourse]

I'm watching Rhea Seehorn right now in a movie called Inside Man: Most Wanted that came out in 2019.  I probably won't finish watching, but it's nice to see her without that damned pony tail.   

[Mezzaluna]

I have for years maintained that Kim has some effed-up past, some childhood trauma, that may come to light. Season five had one scene with Kim as a child waiting on a rainy night for her mother to pick her up, and the mom shows up drunk. I'd like to see more exposition on Kim.

Kim was pretty straight-laced in the early seasons of BCS and I'm guessing she worked hard to make her adult life as normal as possible. Jimmy brings out the devil in her, and it's starting to take over more and more.

I'd love a spinoff examining Kim's life and what brought her to where she is now.

[Cinnabon]

Best article I have read discussing Kim, her background, and motivation for bringing down Howard. Highly recommended!

https://slate.com/culture/2022/05/better-call-saul-final-season-kim-wexler.html

 

[Cinnabon]

 

Nm

Edited May 3, 2022 by Cinnabon
Duplicate post

[peeayebee]

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing that.

[Adiba]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Best article I have read discussing Kim, her background, and motivation for bringing down Howard. Highly recommended!

https://slate.com/culture/2022/05/better-call-saul-final-season-kim-wexler.html

 

Good article, but for me, the jury is still out on whether Kim is “our hero” or not. I’ll have to see what the rest of the series brings.

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Best article I have read discussing Kim, her background, and motivation for bringing down Howard. Highly recommended!

https://slate.com/culture/2022/05/better-call-saul-final-season-kim-wexler.html

 

This article did make a lot of sense.

Perhaps the issue is that they cast too likable of a guy to play Howard? 

I think if he were a little more smug or jerky, I could understand it better.

Right now he is a fairly affable and moral man with a terrible tan. He really does not come off smarmy and I think he is supposed to?

 

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, Adiba said:

Good article, but for me, the jury is still out on whether Kim is “our hero” or not. I’ll have to see what the rest of the series brings.

I agree.

The article makes some good points but I think it also looks a bit too uncritically at Kim's "desire to do good."

If her motive is to stick it to people who she thinks condescend to her, what does it say about her that she falls into a similar trap? She also was not forced to rely on Howard.  She could have turned down his offer to pay for her education. 

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Perhaps the issue is that they cast too likable of a guy to play Howard? 

I think if he were a little more smug or jerky, I could understand it better.

Right now he is a fairly affable and moral man with a terrible tan. He really does not come off smarmy and I think he is supposed to?

If they wanted him to be worse than he is, they'd either direct him to lay it on thicker or write it more overtly. In general, BB & BCS have been written too precisely to let something like that go by.

I think they want Howard to be as straight forward of a character as it gets because the vengeance scheme isn't about him. It's all about Kim and her projections.

I'm starting to think the settlement will come through the day after Jimmy disappears.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Irlandesa

[Bannon]

7 hours ago, Adiba said:

Good article, but for me, the jury is still out on whether Kim is “our hero” or not. I’ll have to see what the rest of the series brings.

As discussed above, I suspect it'll come down to whether she fully grasps that what she accidentally started with Cliff is the way to do good without being cruel and unethical (which the piece mentions at the end), or whether her contempt for Howard  burns so hot that it consumes her. I'd be shocked if the writers had her succeed in her plot against Howard, while suffering little consequence. But then again, if she were to pull it off, without consequence, that might still be a way for her to be consumed. It might burn away her last bit of decency, or at least so much that she would be a much, much, different person

Edited May 4, 2022 by Bannon

[Ellaria]

14 hours ago, Adiba said:

Good article, but for me, the jury is still out on whether Kim is “our hero” or not. I’ll have to see what the rest of the series brings.

Agree. In this universe, it’s hard to designate someone as “our hero” until the end of the story. There are still many paths that she can choose.

8 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

The article makes some good points but I think it also looks a bit too uncritically at Kim's "desire to do good."

100%. A desire to do good and actually doing good are not necessarily the same thing.

The article makes another statement that I don’t agree with: “Her noble desire to be the hero in other people’s lives.” I’ve never thought that Kim wanted to be a hero. In fact, I’m still not entirely clear on her motivations. I think that Kim is much more complex.

[peeayebee]

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

The article makes another statement that I don’t agree with: “Her noble desire to be the hero in other people’s lives.” I’ve never thought that Kim wanted to be a hero. In fact, I’m still not entirely clear on her motivations. I think that Kim is much more complex.

I agree with the article's statement. Kim probably would disagree and say she wants to help them and to have justice done, to have the law followed, but that's just another way of being a hero. She wants to save people from injustice. 

I'm not saying that's her only motivation. Like you said, she's complex, but that doesn't rule out this particular facet of her personality.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Agree. In this universe, it’s hard to designate someone as “our hero” until the end of the story. There are still many paths that she can choose.

100%. A desire to do good and actually doing good are not necessarily the same thing.

The article makes another statement that I don’t agree with: “Her noble desire to be the hero in other people’s lives.” I’ve never thought that Kim wanted to be a hero. In fact, I’m still not entirely clear on her motivations. I think that Kim is much more complex.

Yep, that's what makes it a good story. These aren't archetypes, or to be less generous, cliches. These characters seem like real people, which means they are many things, even conflicting things, at once.

[PeterPirate]

That article was a puff piece, imo.  No mention of Kim's knowledge of Jimmy's unethical and/or criminal behavior, or that she had to face down a drug kingpin/murder suspect in her own home.  

Kim is Lady Macbeth as far as I'm concerned.  Helping the poor is her way of trying to erase the damn spot on her conscience.  

Edited May 4, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

14 hours ago, qtpye said:

This article did make a lot of sense.

Perhaps the issue is that they cast too likable of a guy to play Howard? 

I think if he were a little more smug or jerky, I could understand it better.

Right now he is a fairly affable and moral man with a terrible tan. He really does not come off smarmy and I think he is supposed to?

 

Howard's objectively become a much better person over the course of the show. Instead of being the insecure, thin skinned, irresponsible, entitled, layabout he was early in the show, he's now willing to admit to error, and be accountable for what is ethically and professionally  demanded from someone in his position of power and financial reward. That's terrific writing, because it lies in contrast to Kim's ethical descent, and now being on the precipice of further decline via this plot against Howard. Will she go through with it? Will she turn away, especially now that Cliff haa offered an entirely ethical path to obtain that which she claims is most important to her? Damned if I know, but that's part of what makes it a great story!

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

 

I will also add that having Howard seeing a therapist, and actually working to stay focused on matters of importance, is a great writing choice.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Bannon
added thought

[PeterPirate]

Another good analysis of Kim from my new favorite reviewer.  

 

[PeterPirate]

Two videos from a channel that posts psychological analyses for a lot of different shows.  

 

 

[Razzberry]

I especially liked the video about how Howard was the object of displacement, it explains a lot.   

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Two videos from a channel that posts psychological analyses for a lot of different shows.  

 

 

Thank you @PeterPirate for posting these videos.

They really explained so much about Kim that I found baffling.

 

 

[PeterPirate]

12 hours ago, qtpye said:

Thank you @PeterPirate for posting these videos.

They really explained so much about Kim that I found baffling.

Thank you.  

Here is one more video from Courtney.  I like it because she points out visual cues to support her theory.  

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterPirate]

It turns out that what I have been calling "cognitive dissonance" is really "reaction formation".  

I am going to emphasize one point this person makes:  That reaction formation has been put into overdrive by the events of Bagman and Bad Choice Road.    

Also, I will add that Kim wants to see herself as Atticus Finch.  Instead, she has become Mrs. Chimpwithamachinegun.  

 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by PeterPirate