S10.E16: Paint It Black

[SueB]

I didn't think his confession actually had anything at all to do with his sexual history.  I think it was the stepping off point to his entire life and all of his relationships. I don't judge one-night stands in any way shape or form nor do I think Dean judges himself for those one night stands. He might want something more but still believes he can't have it since he did try to have two meaningful relationships that were not one night stands and look how the second one turned out?  I don't think Dean will ever go that route again.

 

But personally the "experiencing for the first time" might really have been about John.  As to the self-loathing...eh, that is always there and IMO it will always be there, just the degree varies. 

I wasn't trying to suggest one night stands are something to be judged for, but rather that he's worth building long term relationships.  And it's Dean himself who suggests he wants more meaningful relationships.  I also don't think that it's about sex.  In the absymal "Rock and a Hard Place", I think Dean was telling the truth that the "adios" is hard.  He's a people person that can't get close to people for fear of getting them killed.  But I think, in the past, he also feels like he's not worth that risk. That's the self-loathing part.  I guess what I'm saying, is that his desire to actually get close to people, let go of being in control, actually accept help because he's worth it...this is what I got out of that confessional scene.

But how does John enter into this?

Edited March 31, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I think John is the one relationship he's never been able to reconcile. I think he doesn't think John thinks he was every good enough and Dean is still majorly screwed up about John and being a parent to Sam before he was old enough to understand what that meant. He spoke of how much John ruined his life as demon!Dean which may or may not have been 100% the truth but IMO is something probably niggling at Dean but he can't really bring himself to process the same kind of negative thoughts about John that demon!Dean had (or in the dreamon!Dean episode). 

[supposebly]

I'm not sure how that all pertains to Dean. Throughout the show, it's been Dean who has comparatively easily forged more or less deep friendships with people, while Sam.....hasn't. Or only as a tag along to Dean. I think Dean got close to plenty of "people". Cas, Benny, Charlie, Bobby, Lisa spring to mind.

 

 

He's a people person that can't get close to people for fear of getting them killed.

 

The one person I think that applies to is Kevin. Of course, if that was the reason Kevin wasn't allowed in the bunker in season 8, well.....

 

I really don't get this apparent character development or revelation, nor do I understand how it may all pertain to the mark business. Also, it's a bit late in the game when you are looking at the distinct possibility that you might kill all those people he is supposed to have meaningful relationships with. I just don't see the connection or the point of all this.

 

I think that the issue with not accepting help and not trusting anyone has more to do with Sam and Dean's role as pseudo parent to Sam. And I think that's the part that needs resolving for Dean. Every parent eventually needs to trust their children but maybe that's the part that Dean adopted from John who did not instill the sense that he trusted Dean completely while still burdening him with at least partial parenting duties.

 

I think overall, Dean's other relationships have been mostly fine. Unless this confession was really only about not having deep relationships with women, in which case, I'm going to vomit. While remembering Lisa. And possibly Cassie whose name I had to look up, so maybe not.

 

Now, with Sam, who has no actual friendships at all independently of Dean, this would be much more of an issue imo, it's just that the show doesn't really address how strange that is while possibly addressing something that to me, is not an issue for Dean.

Edited March 31, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

I guess I've always taken it that Sam didn't feel a great need for many friendships, unlike Dean. I don't get the impression that Sam has lamented not having a ton of friends because for me Sam has always seemed more okay with just himself and Dean once he came back into the family business. I guess to me Sam is more comfortable with being alone than Dean. 

[supposebly]

 

I guess to me Sam is more comfortable with being alone than Dean.

 

Sam might be comfortable but I still find it odd considering some of the people he forged relationships with independently from Dean. There is the monster girlfriend that Dean killed, Sarah, who got killed by Crowley, and then there are Ruby and Amelia. There are various sorta hookups such as Hookman girl, werewolf girl, the doctor from season 4 I believe but no friendships.

 

I just don't get how this is supposedly an issue for Dean who is the one who forms fairly healthy friendships independently from Sam much easier.

 

Objectively, this should be something Sam should ponder why he seems to incapable of forging healthy friendships. He might not wonder, but I do. While I don't wonder about this when it comes to Dean. There are other things I wonder about with Dean but not this. And Sam isn't alone, he is with Dean and usually, as soon as he isn't, he doesn't behave in an entirely healthy manner either.

Edited March 31, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

Oh see, I don't think it's that Sam CAN'T forge new friendships.  I think it's a conscious decision on Sam's part not born out of fear or because he's so damaged he can't make friends. I think Sam is very secure with himself after everything he's been through and he just accepts that this is his life and he's okay with it. YMMV

Edited March 31, 2015 by catrox14

[sarthaz]

I think it's because Dean is the star of the show, and Sam is just a supporting character, so they haven't put in the time/effort to really develop him yet.

 

Whoops ... wrong thread! :)

Edited April 1, 2015 by sarthaz

[catrox14]

I think it's because Dean is the star of the show, and Sam is just a supporting character, so they haven't put in the time/effort to really develop him yet.

 

Whoops ... wrong thread! :)

 

Yeah the 10 years of developing Sam, and all his mytharcs...sure. 

[supposebly]

 

I don't think it's that Sam CAN'T forge new friendships.

Well, I think an emotionally healthy person would wonder why he doesn't have any friends outside of his brother who used to be his pseudo parent and more or less falls apart when Dean is gone. As we say, YMMV.

Edited April 1, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

Well, I think an emotionally healthy person would wonder why he doesn't have any friends outside of his brother who used to be his pseudo parent and more or less falls apart when Dean is gone. As we say, YMMV.

 

. I think it's a sign that he's okay with his life the way it is. I think if Sam wanted friends he would have them. Sam has always seemed perfectly capable of functioning without Dean but I don't think Dean can say the same, as well we saw in s9. 

 

Sam went to college and only came back because Jessica was murdered. He seemed pretty okay to me in s8. He messed up with Ruby but that was the only time and I think Sam learned his lesson.  Maybe Dean's confession was about figuring out his relationship with Sam ?

[supposebly]

 

Maybe Dean's confession was about figuring out his relationship with Sam ?

 

That's the one thing that would make sense to me. I think the later conversation in the car actually pointed that way.

 

 

I think if Sam wanted friends he would have them.

 

Well, I would like to see him develop a friendship. I haven't given up on a Jodi-Sam combo yet.

Edited April 1, 2015 by supposebly

[AwesomO4000]

He seemed pretty okay to me in s8.

 

Whereas to me Sam seemed like a complete mess - including relationship-wise - in a "what the hell is going on with Sam?" way in season 8...

 

The rest of this response with explanations as to why I think that Sam was a complete mess relationship wise and not really all that comfortable with himself in season 8, I moved over to the Sam thread.

[Wynne88]

I think it's because Dean is the star of the show, and Sam is just a supporting character, so they haven't put in the time/effort to really develop him yet.

 

 

So far this year, Sam has definitely been in a support role, but what goes around comes around, I guess.  Hopefully he'll have a bit more to do the rest of the season.

 

Yeah the 10 years of developing Sam, and all his mytharcs...sure.

 

I think Sam’s mytharcs have done a better job of developing Dean than Sam, but that’s just my opinion.  Stuff happens to Sam, but it’s Dean we tend to see dealing with it.  A good example is what happened in Season 9 – Sam gets possessed, finds out he killed Kevin, so forth and so on – but to me, the Season was pretty much all about the impact on Dean.  How it made him feel, what reckless decisions he made because of his guilt, etc.

 

Sam has always seemed perfectly capable of functioning without Dean but I don't think Dean can say the same, as well we saw in s9.

 

 

As I recall, Sam has a history of making bad decisions/and or getting into predicaments he has to be rescued from when forced to function without Dean, but I agree he isn't as dependent on Dean as Dean is on him.  I wish he did have a few independent friends.  I think it helps to have somebody you can safely complain to, just as a relief valve, and since Dean is what Sam would probably complain about the most, it can't be him.

I also think that with the exception of the knee-jerk decision to allow Ezekiel to possess Sam, it wasn't being without Sam that messed Dean up in Season 9.  I think it was the guilt he felt about allowing Ezekiel/Gadreel to possess Sam when he knew his brother wouldn’t have chosen that, his anguish over the fact that Sam couldn’t forgive him for doing so, and the fact that his decision ended up getting Kevin killed.  Dean tends to act without due consideration when he is stressed, which rarely works out well in the long run.

[DittyDotDot]

. I think it's a sign that he's okay with his life the way it is. I think if Sam wanted friends he would have them. Sam has always seemed perfectly capable of functioning without Dean but I don't think Dean can say the same, as well we saw in s9. 

 

Sam went to college and only came back because Jessica was murdered. He seemed pretty okay to me in s8. He messed up with Ruby but that was the only time and I think Sam learned his lesson.  Maybe Dean's confession was about figuring out his relationship with Sam ?

 

To me, Sam finally took Dean's advice from S1: it's easier to do the job and live the life if you don't get too attached to people outside the life. Personally, I think both Sam and Dean are equally screwed up without each other anymore. In S1, they both could and had been functioning without each other for years, now, neither of them can make good choices without the other, IMO.

[SueB]

J2 (that means it was one or the other and I can't remember which) that Sam and Dean suffer from a sort of attachment disorder. Personally aware of someone WITH that condition, I'd say they show some level of that but not the official thing.

[Diane]

I have not read every post but the very last scene where it shows them driving away, it's Sam driving, but the silhouette shows  deans head in the drivers seat and Sam in the passenger seat. Small error.

Edited April 16, 2015 by dcmjdc2

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I neither really liked nor disliked this episode with any ferocity - so maybe that's a good thing after some of the past crappy eps?  Anyway, just a few observances/nit picks

• Sigh.  Why is always a Catholic church?  You know, there are Baptists, and Protestants, and Pentecostals, and Holy Rollers...etc.  etc.  etc.  
• Didn't foresee Isabella being a spirit from 1520's Florence, so that was kind of cool.
• I don't think Dean would really be so crass as to check out a nun like that.  Kind of how a couple eps ago at the college he was skeeving on younger women.  It's creepy.  Dean is not that creepy.  He doesn't need to be that creepy.  Why is the show doing that to him?
• I liked Olivette.  Kind of hope we see her again.
• I don't understand how the what's left of the Grand Coven knows that Sam and Dean are the last American Men of Letters.  Has Dean been putting that on his dating profile?

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think Dean would really be so crass as to check out a nun like that.  Kind of how a couple eps ago at the college he was skeeving on younger women.  It's creepy.  Dean is not that creepy.  He doesn't need to be that creepy.  Why is the show doing that to him?

I think it's not Dean, per se, but the Mark exerting it's influence. They aren't very consistent with it, but I think you're supposed to think it's not something Dean would do, but maybe something Demon Dean would do?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it's not Dean, per se, but the Mark exerting it's influence. They aren't very consistent with it, but I think you're supposed to think it's not something Dean would do, but maybe something Demon Dean would do?

Yeah, I actually thought about that.  All I can say is if that's what they're going for with that stuff, it's not working for me.  I thought The Mark was about bloodlust, not teenage hormones run amok.  

[DittyDotDot]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, I actually thought about that.  All I can say is if that's what they're going for with that stuff, it's not working for me.  I thought The Mark was about bloodlust, not teenage hormones run amok.  

I think that's what they were going for in S9, but then they made Dean a demon and I think all that went out the window. Demon Dean was just doing whatever the hell he wanted; as though all his inhibitions had been removed. I kinda equate Demon Dean to Soulless Sam in the sense they just didn't have any inhibitions anymore. Like I said, I don't think they were all that consistent with it--nor were they particularly consistent with what being soulless meant back in S6--but I think the idea is Dean is feeling the Mark right now and not quite himself.

Edited September 25, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I neither really liked nor disliked this episode with any ferocity - so maybe that's a good thing after some of the past crappy eps?  Anyway, just a few observances/nit picks

• Sigh.  Why is always a Catholic church?  You know, there are Baptists, and Protestants, and Pentecostals, and Holy Rollers...etc.  etc.  etc.  

As a Catholics we've got:

- Latin
- A LOT of dead bodies in churches - more in Europe than in US, but we have that ghost potential (although many other Christians do have columbariums or graveyards right next to the Church, so that's good for ghost stuff too). 
- That whole exorcism thing
- Immediately identifiable garments -- I bet props are cheap because they always use the full cloistered nun look (recycled in many Hollywood stories)
- Scandal
- Big churches with stained glass that often has some beautiful art (or sometimes the whole agony-art thing)
- Crucifix vs cross --- I think Hollywood might think it's more dramatic
- Did I mention you can make us really good (Mother Theresa) or really evil (the horrendous scandal of pedophiles and those who covered it up)?
- Ancient secrets dating back 2000 years (so you can make up any story about whatever....)
- Really bad decision making like the Spanish Inquisition ... there has to be all sorts of ghosts and curses

In short, there's a LOT of drama potential with the Catholics.  And plenty of oversimplified tropes to plug in. Good stuff, bad stuff.  If they do Holy Rollers they usually are going after the Buddy Boyle types, not anyone good.  

For this particular episode, it was useful to have her ancient family donate to some ancient church... which brought the ghost over.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

In short, there's a LOT of drama potential with the Catholics.  And plenty of oversimplified tropes to plug in. 

All very good points.  And here I was just thinking it seemed like they were always "picking on" Catholics.  (Though to be fair, plenty of other denominations, and 'non-denominations' have had big, BIG scandals over the years.)  Still, I guess Latin and Exorcisms trump all.... ;)

[Demented Daisy]

Catholicism has a rich history of rituals, not just exorcisms.  Even today, we have confession, communion, confirmation....  I mean, even attending mass is a form of ritual.  (Kneeling, standing, praying, "peace be with you"ing, etc.)  

[Dobian]

Yes, the Catholic Church is great for all that old ritualistic stuff.  And not surprisingly, Greek/Eastern Orthodox is the same and even have their own rituals that are ancient and a little spooky.  8)

[bettername2come]

Civilians on Supernatural should not be given pointy objects. This isn't a particularly memorable episode for me, but it's not bad. Actually, I think it's one of the stronger Buckner and Ross-Lemming episodes for me. 

I want Rowena's blue dress. 

On 9/25/2016 at 4:09 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• Sigh.  Why is always a Catholic church?  You know, there are Baptists, and Protestants, and Pentecostals, and Holy Rollers...etc.  etc.  etc.  

I think Supernatural has a bit of a division of labor between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics get the spooky imagery, the ghosts and the effective rituals. Protestants get better lighting, a bit more hypocrisy, constantly used by angels, oh, and occasionally, awesome arsenals and militia. 

[Katy M]

I don't think it's ALWAYS a Catholic church.  That church in 99 Problems obviously wasn't Catholic because the minister had a daughter.  I didn't get the feeling it was a Catholic Church in Good God Y'All, but it may have been because Dean did call him "padre.".  Again, Hook Man couldn't have been Catholic because the minster was widowed with a daughter.  You don't usually call a priest "pastor" I don't think, so that lets Pastor Jim's church in Salvation off from being Cahtolic.  Faith definitely wasn't Catholic. 

[catrox14]

FWIW,

these folks wrote this book as of the end of s8 looking at religion in SPN. I don't have 30 bucks for the download and it's not copyable but here is a link

Television, Religion and Supernatural: Hunting Monsters and Finding Gods  by Erika Engstrom and Joseph M. Valenzano III

They have chapters on

Religion, Mass Medi, and Supernatural : Introduction
Plurality of Religion
Hegemony of Religions
Homilies and Horsemen
A Divinely Ordained Civil Religion
Conclusion

They only previewed the first 30+ pages of the 160 pages. It's a lot of numbers etc. Kind of cool. They address the instances of villains in particular religions, and other things in the text but  I couldn't copy and paste it and I was disinclined to retype a lot of it and I couldn't see a table that summarizes that aspect, which is not to say it doesn't exist, I just couldn't see it. But here is part of a table about the frequency of religion .

Page 33 Table 2.1

 

Quote

Frequency of Religion in s1-8

s1-3 in the first column, s1-8 in the 2nd column

 

No mention of religion  29 (48%)      62 (32%)
Non-Christian Religions 19 (32%)     49 (28%)
Catholicism                       12(20%)    52(30%)
Protestant Christian         3(5%)         38 (22%)

 I think if you add in s9 and s10, it's still probably a similar distribution with maybe a bit more of the Protestant Christian in s9 with Buddy Boyles. 

[Hanahope]

So yeah real filler here.  And how do both Sam and a young nun happen to be able to read handwritten renaissance Italian?  That requires a mighty big hand wave.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, Hanahope said:

So yeah real filler here.  And how do both Sam and a young nun happen to be able to read handwritten renaissance Italian?  That requires a mighty big hand wave.

I'm actually assuming that renaissance Italian is very close to Latin.  Enough so that you could pick out most of the words.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Hanahope said:

So yeah real filler here.  And how do both Sam and a young nun happen to be able to read handwritten renaissance Italian?  That requires a mighty big hand wave.

Yeah, but considering you made it to S10, your waving hand should be toned up and ready for a big one. ;)

[Wayward Son]

On 26 March 2015 at 4:20 PM, catrox14 said:

 

I just can't with this "Dean is a dick to women" thing. Dean isn't perfect but IMO he's not a dick to women in general. He's barely a sexual being these days anyway. He tried to hook up via the dating app and he didn't even ping she was a hooker. Something ain't right with him still. Now Demon!Dean was total dick to Ann Marie and the stripper but that was demon!Dean. regular! Dean flirts a lot and has consensual sex with random partners. He's not abusive or cruel. He doesn't lead them to believe there is anything more happening. He's been respectful in general with the women he has had relationships with; Cassie, Lisa. He's a smartass bit IMO respects and admires Sheriff from the Benders, Jody, Donna, Charlie, Mrs.Tran, etc etc.  He doesn't slut shame see Suzy the porn star and strippers. He thought the nun was hot. So what? He thinks a lot of women are hot. He didn't hit on her that I can recall. 

 

Sorry but man this whole "Dean is a dick to women" is just so overblown and annoying. 

A million years late to the party, but I took that headline as a casual remark about the episode having Dean make false confessions about his treatment of women, which he was then "forgiven" for rather than a legitimate comment on his character. 

On 27 March 2015 at 7:41 AM, SueB said:

 

WhIch brings me to four points:-

- the demise of the Grand Coven is either overstated or BL just took a left turn. The witch in About a Boy said she was sent by the Grand Coven to hunt down Rowena. Implying and existing power organization. Now the vibe is that they were decimated years ago and Rowena has been on the lamb for nothing. Then again, maybe Olivette lied-

My understanding (and without getting too spoilery I don't think canon has contradicted it since?) is that the coven wasn't completely decimated. It still existed and was known to the world witch community as a great power. However, this is all just an image they're projecting to protect their reputation and in reality their power was long since stripped. So the Coven would still be able to order around minor witches like the one from About A Boy who don't know about the true state of things. They're a fallen power relying on the reputation they gained in their heyday and a good poker fight to maintain the little power they still have.