Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Chicago Redshirt]

Re: Fury of Firestorm, it seems like a rare episode for a TV series with a white lead where the people of color had about as many speaking roles. (Flash/Caitlin/Martin/Patty/Tina/Harrison vs. Cisco/Iris/Joe/Mama Iris/Hewitt/Jax)

 

Not sure how I feel that essentially Hewitt is presented as Angry Black Man despite all his knowledge and achievements, or that Jax is presented as a jock who let his inability to play football prevent him from going to college.

 

I also had an adverse reaction to Caitlin basically being all in love with the notion of Hewitt. Seemed like she was engaging in a bunch of stereotyping based on Jax seeming like a thug while Hewitt was "clean and articulate" to coin a phrase. Maybe the show is flipping the script by having Hewitt be the danger and Jax be the hero, but I'm not super comfortable. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

I also had an adverse reaction to Caitlin basically being all in love with the notion of Hewitt. Seemed like she was engaging in a bunch of stereotyping based on Jax seeming like a thug while Hewitt was "clean and articulate" to coin a phrase. Maybe the show is flipping the script by having Hewitt be the danger and Jax be the hero, but I'm not super comfortable. 

 

Caitlin was set up to be the goat. She's given the prejudicial attitudes that are obviously going to be so wrong as to be ridiculous. Even Dr. Stein is not so extreme. She gets a little redemption in figuring out how to defeat Tokamak, which is usually Cisco's job, so I guess the writers felt she needed that. It's fine to give people flaws, but it was so transparent that it just didn't work. And Caitlin's already mostly useless as written, so I'm not sure she needed another flaw or mistake on her resume.

 

I was also a little bothered by two young black guys, both "angry", one legitimately because he lost an opportunity through a personal tragedy, and the other because he was a "bad seed" who squandered the opportunities given to him. There was just no subtlety or sophistication in the contrast between the two of them.

 

Lastly, a 4.0 student who can only get into college with an athletic scholarship? Not even night school community college, etc. are options? 

[phoenics]

Re: Fury of Firestorm, it seems like a rare episode for a TV series with a white lead where the people of color had about as many speaking roles. (Flash/Caitlin/Martin/Patty/Tina/Harrison vs. Cisco/Iris/Joe/Mama Iris/Hewitt/Jax)

Not sure how I feel that essentially Hewitt is presented as Angry Black Man despite all his knowledge and achievements, or that Jax is presented as a jock who let his inability to play football prevent him from going to college.

I also had an adverse reaction to Caitlin basically being all in love with the notion of Hewitt. Seemed like she was engaging in a bunch of stereotyping based on Jax seeming like a thug while Hewitt was "clean and articulate" to coin a phrase. Maybe the show is flipping the script by having Hewitt be the danger and Jax be the hero, but I'm not super comfortable.

I had the same adverse reaction to Cait's attitude and then I wondered if the writers were taking a shot at the way fans in this fandom tend to hate on the non-scientist characters and make proclamations that the non science characters are "stupid" or "dumb" when they aren't. A lot of hate that lands in poor Iris' lap was of that kind. And if the writers were using Caitlin as a stand in for the audience to smack that elitist thinking down then I'm fine with it. It was definitely a "take that" trope by the writers to the audience. I knew the moment Hewitt showed up he wouldn't work because Ronnie and Stein were constantly at odds and that caused their issues early on. Two many cooks in the kitchen. Jax works because he was already a hero (look how he saved his friend at his own expense) AND he was humble.

The writers have Jax with a 4.0 to escape him being stereotyped, but that also blew holes in why he couldn't go to college on scholarship. They said he didn't have the money but he would have gotten a free ride many places. So in trying to avoid a stereotype they made a plot hole. A for effort I guess.

[dirtypop90]

Barry needs to get some chemistry going with someone, male or female, black, white or purple, because I am not feeling him as sexy at all with anyone.

Ha! I'm sort of with you. I think GG has good chemistry with mostly everyone. But the only time I've seen "sexy" chemistry was when he was dressed as flash with iris at the coffee shop. but I don't think Barry outside of his flash costume is supposed to be sexy with anyone, if that makes sense?

[Ruby25]

It can happen unintentionally though, if there just happens to be something there between the actors. Haven't really seen that yet with him and another actress (at least outside of the Flash costume, because I agree, the early part of last season's scenes between Iris and The Flash was the one time where there really did seem to be something sexy between those two).

[cynic]

Do student athletes get any stipends? Do regular scholarships cover living expenses? Maybe it was a question of that if he wasn't gambling on making pros, he had to get a good job making money to help support his family as soon as possible. But yeah, they should have made him a good student, but not a 4.0 one. Maybe someone smart, focused on sports instead of studying.

I loved those early scenes between Barry was the Flash and Iris. I thought they crackled, especially the one on the roof when he was behind her. Hot.

Edited October 29, 2015 by cynic

[Chicago Redshirt]

For a football stud at the level of Jax (playing 1st string QB winning games and being viewed by recruiters) with the grades Jax got, a full-ride scholarship would have been a foregone conclusion. Heck, for a football stud at the level of Jax with subpar grades, he still would have been able to get a full-ride scholarship.

 

College football is basically a minor-league for the pros. And because alumni have a vested interest and pride in their football teams, colleges throw humongous amounts of money at their football programs. 

[VCRTracking]

I also had an adverse reaction to Caitlin basically being all in love with the notion of Hewitt. Seemed like she was engaging in a bunch of stereotyping based on Jax seeming like a thug while Hewitt was "clean and articulate" to coin a phrase. Maybe the show is flipping the script by having Hewitt be the danger and Jax be the hero, but I'm not super comfortable.

 

My feeling was that if Hewitt was white, then that would make Caitlin look REALLY racist when she favored him over Jax. Ronnie's successor was always going to be African American(like in the comics), but since they were saving that for the final act along with needing a villain for him to fight, they set up the two candidates thing, with the runner up having villainous tendancies. Having both be African-American showed that skin color was not at all a consideration in Caitlin's choice.

Edited October 29, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Actionmage]

But Jax said that his leg was hurt in a way that he wasn't in playing shape after the collider incident. So whatever football money any college wanted to throw at him would have gone away. Yes, football programs have access to stupid $$, but Jefferson would not be worth investing in as he could not play.

 

There was also a mention of not having enough money to go to school, even with his 4.0 GPA. While I believe that is always a possibility, I would think that maybe a better excuse was that he found a scholarship for when  he was ready to start classes, but kept putting them off, unsure of what a future without sports would be like. Not to undermine Jefferson's smarts, but to show how that much expectation for someone's future can paralyze someone emotionally. As others in other forums her have noted, Jefferson being willing to help his teammate would have easily translated into an eventual acceptance in this case, if anyone on Team Flash had actually thought about Stein instead of folks' resumes.

 

I feel a little gratified that I am not alone in wondering where devoted wife Clarissa Stein has been put.  Her husband is dying and fellow Firestorm wife Caitlin is too busy flirting with an AltEarth hero, being all Judgy McJudgerson, and not informing Clarissa of how close she is to joining the Firestorm Widows Club! Really, Show? It is agism, imo. Clarissa and Martin are "old", so Martin is grumpy about pizza and having to share his body with another adult human. Clarissa is there to smile, worry and be Mom-ish, until there is something that would seem to indicate that the loving, patient, concerned wife we were shown would drop off the face of this Earth and not wonder what's up with her radio-silent husband. This is a waste of getting Isabella Hoffman in the first place, so why have him married? IIRC, Professor Stein was single in the comics, at least when the first series ( The Fury of Firestorm, the episode's title) started.

 

As for Francine? Sure. Fine. She has a drug-abusing past. But to then have a "secret child"? Why not have her adopt this young boy, her brother or sister's kid, and she wanted to introduce him to Joe and Iris because she was dying, if they had to have the "cautionary" angle to the drug use backstory? The sibling could have died in an accident or in a wrong place & time situation.  Then again, Iris is taking up where Joe seems to have left off and is refusing to talk or listen to Francine. That too is fine and understandable, but Iris is getting angry over things she could have found out just talking to Francine at the first meeting. "Who is that boy's father? Dad? Wait, don't answer that because I wouldn't be able to believe what you tell me."  So Francine is s.o.l. no matter what she does. Of course, being a grown ass woman, she could head Iris off and just tell Joe what's up with the young man in question, but this is the West family.

 

Also, Joe trying to pay off Francine still just is very crass. She left without taking his cash the last time, why would she want cash this time? Especially since she just showed up with no preamble.  Part of me is still hoping Francine got pulled over to Central City by a rift and knows she's got very limited time before she is going to be pulled back permanently. Yet, I'm not holding out for anything thoughtful or creative for that story, which bums me out.

[Ruby25]

My feeling was that if Hewitt was white, then that would make Caitlin look REALLY racist when she favored him over Jax. Ronnie's successor was always going to be African American(like in the comics), but since they were saving that for the final act along with needing a villain for him to fight, they set up the two candidates thing, with the runner up having villainous tendancies. Having both be African-American showed that skin color was not at all a consideration in Caitlin's choice.

You're so right about this. That's probably the only reason why both candidates were black. They immediately thought oh no, if Caitlin prefers this guy she'll look totally racist (instead of just classist, as she apparently is).

[VCRTracking]

Yeah, classist is bad but not that bad. I laughed at one of the reaction videos of the episodes on YouTube (the Blindwave channel), when Caitlin was particularly snobby about Jax' job, one of the two guys watching went "Fuck you! Mechanics make a lot of money! I don't like her anymore..."

Edited October 29, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Actionmage]

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention last season, but it didn't seem like Eddie got all this flak for distracting Iris.  Barry gets his turn now is all.

(italics mine)

 

That sounds like a double standard on all fronts.

 

First, Iris/Eddie wasn't written as Iris distracted, but genuine feelings. Barry's inaction led to that development.  That would be why there was no flak to be taken. Eddie and Iris were heading to marriage. 

 

A road to WestAllen, at least on the CW, was going to involve "bad timing". One was going to be "taken" while the other was not. Still, Barry is shown to have his team, Joe and Iris, Team Arrow, Dr. Tina McGee, Linda Park, now Stein, Jax, Jay, his freed dad ( if Henry decides to call or drop back in), the CCPD ( in his Flash persona as well as normal persona), and a reluctant ally in the form of Earth-2 Harrison Wells, a.k.a., Harry (tm "Crisco") to lean on, give pep talks, and bolster him when Barry has self doubts.  As noted elsewhere, Joe has even counselled Barry to pursue Patty.  Which is another layer in Joe's take on child/work partner relations, but anyway...

 

Iris has been shown to have Barry and, conditionally, Joe to confide in or express her doubts.  Iris had her now-deceased mentor to wonder at. Just in the last couple of episodes have TPTB allowed Iris and Linda to be friendly and enjoy each other's company. They both now know about Barry and are making jokes about how weird it is to be in that circle. I am not even sure Iris knows anyone from Star City besides Felicity and Oliver and Ray. ( Did she get to meet Dig?)  Iris has been shown to have a significantly smaller world, on-screen, than Barry. Yes, this is The Flash not Iris. Still, the person touted as Barry's best friend since before Nora Allen's world-changing death is barely shown to be active in his life currently. It was Iris and her father who took in Barry and helped him through losing his folks. Yet she is relegated to the margins, even in her own story, from the pilot  through to her mother's reappearance.

 

Iris/Eddie does not mean equal Linda/Barry or  Patty/Barry time. They aren't running for office. Iris and Eddie were tied to Barry's story and it made sense for them to be orbiting the main action, but Iris/Eddie also worked to seemingly crystalize how Barry felt for Iris.

 

Patty, so far, has seemed like The Deflowerer, or she at least is seen as such by a lot posters here. To me, that plays into the Man Is Not A Virgin trope. In order for Barry to enter a sexual relationship with Iris, he has to not be a virgin? What retrograde bs that is. That Barry has to date Patty or have a one off sexual encounter in order to be "ready" for Iris? Really? Is this 2015 or 1955?  The upside to Patty is that he gets the bonus of caring about her? Because posters seem divided on how long she's going to last- to midseason or the full season. Some want her to be gone about four or five episodes ago. We know how well Barry reacts to personal losses. It isn't pretty.

 

 So if Iris had kept things non-sexual with Eddie, Iris would be Barry's love this season?  Or would she get another love interest, like  Barry has? The writing  on this show is frustrating at specific points.

[Ruby25]

 

Patty, so far, has seemed like The Deflowerer, or she at least is seen as such by a lot posters here. To me, that plays into the Man Is Not A Virgin trope. In order for Barry to enter a sexual relationship with Iris, he has to not be a virgin? What retrograde bs that is. That Barry has to date Patty or have a one off sexual encounter in order to be "ready" for Iris? Really? Is this 2015 or 1955?  The upside to Patty is that he gets the bonus of caring about her? Because posters seem divided on how long she's going to last- to midseason or the full season. Some want her to be gone about four or five episodes ago. We know how well Barry reacts to personal losses. It isn't pretty.

 

 So if Iris had kept things non-sexual with Eddie, Iris would be Barry's love this season?  Or would she get another love interest, like  Barry has? The writing  on this show is frustrating at specific points.

I agree with you on that and I think it speaks to how important it is for the male lead of a show to be seen as being definitely, 100% for sure "experienced" enough to be ready for the permanent love interest, and it just makes me roll my eyes because it's so retrograde. I've seen someone point out the similarities to Everwood, which was another Berlanti show back in the day that kinda followed the same story for their main lead couple.

 

In a lot of quarters, Barry has been praised for being a rebuke to the portrayal of traditional masculinity, what with his frequent crying and expressing of emotion and it's been celebrated as a good thing to show. But in this area? Nope, nuh-uh, no way- Iris can't possibly be the only woman he ever sleeps with, he's got to have some kind of adult relationship before her, so let's bring on an unneccessary Patty chick to suck up screentime from more important characters to make sure that happens.

 

I would have respected them more if they'd gone the unconventional route instead and just allowed him to be THAT devoted to his one true love- at least it would have been kind of different.

[nksarmi]

While I understand why people think they are bringing Patty along to "deflower" Barry - it might be more than that.  They could be using her to show a few other things... here is what I can think of in no particular order:

 

1. If Barry ended up with the only woman he ever loved from the time he was like 12 on - it would be logical to question if he loved her or loved the idea of her.  In season one, they set Iris up for Barry in such a way that it's hard to believe he could have a REAL relationship with Iris the person rather than Iris the idea.  Letting him date someone else - or establishing that he had a relationship with someone else - makes his feelings for Iris seem more real (as opposed to idealized).

 

2. Barry and Iris need to lose that brother/sister vibe thing they had going on in season one.  And while Iris got a little jealous of Linda in season one, she was all about Felicity and seems to be encouraging him to date Patty.  She just doesn't seem to view him like that.  They need to give them some space for her to see him as someone other than the kid that came to live with them.  Perhaps they thought him dating someone else would help with that a little.

 

3. They might be intending to break Barry's heart by having Patty die.  I mean, that will probably suck on a whole other level because Barry will be allowed to mourn in a way that Iris hasn't.  But maybe they just wanted to give Barry a LI to kill off and thus we get Patty.

[Rai]

My comment had nothing to do with the virginity of anyone.  I just see the story arcs as rising and falling as needs best.  Iris had a relationship when Barry thought he was ready for her (but I don't think he was mentally/emotionally/whatever), and now maybe Iris is ready for Barry -- although I really have seen no hint that she is into him, actually -- but Barry's attracted to someone else.  Eddie was presented to us as the cockblocker in the Allen/West relationship, as far as I'm concerned, and didn't get as much vitirol.  People seemed cool with Iris having her own agency and choosing to be with Eddie.  And since she hasn't shown really much interest in being with Barry any other way than a friend this season, don't know why she can't continue to have her own agency there.  Barry's allowed to be attracted to other people.  Iris doesn't have to want to be with Barry right now.  I'd find it unhealthy of Barry to just be sitting around, pining away like he had for so long already.  I'm never a fan of that trope.

 

It's a normal soap opera progression in my eyes.  I don't want to minimize the discomfort anyone feels, but I don't share it, and I don't see it.  I just see a CW soap.

[dirtypop90]

^ people don't seem to get its not about the fact that Barry and Iris aren't together now. The issue is that the fact that they aren't shouldn't greatly reduce iris's screen time. Candice is second billed behind grant. Iris is the most important character on this show, besides the flash, to the Flash's story. So people are confused and angered, rightfully so, that she gets so little screen time and is so removed from what is happening with Barry. She doesn't have to be in his bed to be important to his story and the fact that another woman is (or will be) in his bed also shouldn't reduce iris's importance to the story.

I am firmly in the camp of, I don't care if they're dating or not, or if barry dates someone else, but Iris needs more screen time and should be driving plots. Yes, this is the flash, but Candice is billed second behind Grant, so I don't understand why Iris is treated as one of the least important characters on this show. How is the third billed actress getting more screen time and POV for her character? It is upsetting

And if they didn't want to use Iris as she was used in the comics, why are her and her family even here? and why on earth is Candice billed second?

Edited November 11, 2015 by dirtypop90

[SevenStars]

My comment had nothing to do with the virginity of anyone. I just see the story arcs as rising and falling as needs best. Iris had a relationship when Barry thought he was ready for her (but I don't think he was mentally/emotionally/whatever), and now maybe Iris is ready for Barry -- although I really have seen no hint that she is into him, actually -- but Barry's attracted to someone else. Eddie was presented to us as the cockblocker in the Allen/West relationship, as far as I'm concerned, and didn't get as much vitirol. People seemed cool with Iris having her own agency and choosing to be with Eddie. And since she hasn't shown really much interest in being with Barry any other way than a friend this season, don't know why she can't continue to have her own agency there. Barry's allowed to be attracted to other people. Iris doesn't have to want to be with Barry right now. I'd find it unhealthy of Barry to just be sitting around, pining away like he had for so long already. I'm never a fan of that trope.

It's a normal soap opera progression in my eyes. I don't want to minimize the discomfort anyone feels, but I don't share it, and I don't see it. I just see a CW soap.

While Eddie didn't get flake and some people liked him, Iris got a lot of vitriol for not running into Barry's arm after he confessed his feelings for her. Even before he confessed his feelings, Iris was getting hate for not being aware of Barry's feelings. It was one of the main reason people were hating on Iris.

So unlike Patty, Eddie didn't get hate but Iris unlike Barry got hated for being in a relationship with Eddie while Barry was longing for her. There were some fans who wanted the writers to kill off Iris because she wasn't worthy of Barry, since she didn't immediately dumped Eddie for him.

Both women in the relationships are the ones who received the hate from the fandom.

[SevenStars]

^ people don't seem to get its not about the fact that Barry and Iris aren't together now. The issue is that the fact that they aren't shouldn't greatly reduce iris's screen time. Candice is second billed behind grant. Iris is the most important character on this show, besides the flash, to the Flash's story. So people are confused and angered, rightfully so, that she gets so little screen time and is so removed from what is happening with Barry. She doesn't have to be in his bed to be important to his story and the fact that another woman is (or will be) in his bed also shouldn't reduce iris's importance to the story.

THIS^^^^ I never expected or really wanted the writers to put Iris/Barry so soon. So I don't mind of Iris or Barry get into relationships with other people. But just because they are not together shouldn't reduce Iris screen time to almost nothing and have her almost be forgotten as Barry's bff, which means that Iris should be there for important moments that have to do with Barry and Barry should be there for important moments that have to do with Iris.

So my problem is not with Patty but with the fact the writers think it's okay to marginalize Iris.

[Rai]

Yeah, I agree both times, the women are getting blamed! That's why I'm somewhat amused by all the indignantion on behalf of Iris this season when she didn't have a whole lot of supporters in the first season.

I just don't see any cause for alarm. Being that she's the second billed actress on the show, her story is far from over. I mean, jeez, look how long Smallville stuck with a far less talented actress who had far worse writing to boot. Everyone's journey is still beginning, really.

[phoenics]

Please do not equate the reaction to Patty - which can't even be described as hate - as anything close to what Iris got and still gets.

It's not even close.

And Rai - the issue is that CP is the lead actress - 2nd billed overall - on this show. And a GUEST STAR actress is getting MORE screen time than she is and more development.

Iris and CP fans, and honestly all fans of The Flash have EVERY REASON to be pissed as hell about that. It's wrong. And for me, as an AA, it feels like racism.

I don't really have an issue with Patty per se, but I'm beginning to resent her presence in SO MANY SCENES when it feels like we're getting Iris scraps compared to what we should be getting.

The writers are WRONG to give Patty so much screen time at the expense of Iris/CP. WRONG.

The worst part? Last week's episode was written by two women. Candice needs a woman of color (preferably a black woman) writer or character advocate in the writer's room (and the editing room). STAT.

Edited November 11, 2015 by phoenics

[dirtypop90]

Yeah, I agree both times, the women are getting blamed! That's why I'm somewhat amused by all the indignantion on behalf of Iris this season when she didn't have a whole lot of supporters in the first season.

I just don't see any cause for alarm. Being that she's the second billed actress on the show, her story is far from over. I mean, jeez, look how long Smallville stuck with a far less talented actress who had far worse writing to boot. Everyone's journey is still beginning, really.

Well you're speaking to the wrong group. I and many of the other posters in this thread and others talking about the writers treatment of Iris also raised the issue of her not having enough POV in season one and supported the character is season one. We have been speaking about wanting more for Iris since the beginning. There may be more people speaking out now, but Iris has always had a vocal support group on the net. Patty likely doesn't have the same because she is a guest character. Edited November 11, 2015 by dirtypop90

[Actionmage]

Eddie was presented to us as the cockblocker in the Allen/West relationship, as far as I'm concerned, and didn't get as much vitirol.

 

We're going to have to respectfully disagree on that point. Eddie was initially shown as Boo! Hiss! Stole Iris from Barry!, but eventually there was respect between Barry and Eddie and Eddie was Barry fan before he knew about the Flash secret. Barry and Eddie had Can you believe That Guy glances about Joe.  The show made sure to show that Iris chose Eddie. It's Barry's story, so of course we naturally want to side with the show's hero.

 

It didn't get vitriol, imo, because: 

* The people who hate Iris, they were happy she wasn't with Barry.

*The people indifferent to Iris are indifferent to Iris with Eddie, unless they shipped him with someone else.

*The people who loved Iris were glad that the character was given agency over who she was to be with romantically.

Those are broad, and have lots of subsets no doubt, but after reading a season +'s worth of posts on the show, I don't think I'm that far off.

[VCRTracking]

If Patty wasn't around people would be shipping Barry with Iris or Caitlin, which would be totally inappropriate considering their significant others both sacrificed themselves to save Barry recently. People are already saying it's too soon for Caitlin to kiss Jay.

[phoenics]

But again - the issue people have with Patty isn't about SHIPPING.

It's about the fact that the character is sucking time away from Iris and pushing her to the margins - whilst Patty actually gets development - more than Eddie got and more than Iris gets. The writers are wrong for this.

Also - Patty is a Mary Sue and seems to be the result of an all-male focus group on how to write a female on a comic show to appeal to men. There is little about Patty that seems human at this point. There is a ton of sexism in how Patty is written, how she's getting more screen time due to her being the LI right now, despite NOT being 2nd billed (as Iris is) and how Iris is being shoved to the sidelines.

[Rai]

The only group I'm speaking to happens to be these boards.  So I'm just reporting what I've read since the show began.  Like I said, I don't want to minimize the discomfort some of the fans are feeling with this current arc, but I don't share it, and I don't see it as a permanent state of affairs.  Yes, CP is second-billed overall.  That I called her an actress in that description wasn't meant to take away from her status, so that kind of hair-splitting definitely doesn't sway me.  Not every casual misuse of language is some deep, biased oversight.

 

I'm assuming that the framework of the whole season has been laid out, and that Iris's story has a lot left to be shown.  That they're taking their time to get there doesn't bother me, nor does the amount of screentime Patty's having, because I don't think Patty's as permanent to the cast.  Her story will probably be shorter.  And if she does get fridged, then I expect a whole new crowd to be upset about that.  And so it goes.  But anyway, that Iris's story is being paced out slowly, I agree that can be frustrating.  But it's not necessarily proof of a worst-case scenario yet.

 

Also, I keep talking about their relationship specifically because that's how I got brought over to this thread in the first place.

 

Seriously, I don't want to come across as dismissive of anyone's concerns, because I agree they're important issues to keep an eye on.  I just don't agree that's what's going on here, and I'm sorry that bugs some of you.  As a hardcore comics person, I tend to walk into any show/movie/etc. with the lowest possible expectations that they'll entertain me anywhere near as much as the comics, so I tend to be pretty easy-going about how things play out and get interpreted for a different audience.  I expect a CW soap opera to follow the CW soap formula, regardless of superpowers in it or not, and I mean soap opera in all its melodramtic forms, not just the romantic part.  To me, Iris's story is on the back burner right now, simmering away, and then it's going to heat up as the season progresses.  You all know that serialized storytelling generally doesn't cram in a moment for every character every week, and that there are rising and falling plots and subplots all the time.  You all know there has to be a few things simmering in wait for after the Zoom story.  Personally, I think putting some of that weight on Iris to pick up her story and retain the viewers with it actually speaks pretty highly of her character -- that people want to know what's up with her despite the fact Zoom just crippled Barry, which overwhelms a lot of other stories running around, no pun intended.

 

Being patient isn't disrespecting the actress or the character.  That I don't share some concerns doesn't mean I'm dumb and biased, nor am I trying to talk anyone out of being concerned.  I'm just personally not worried about Iris and her future on the show is all.  Frankly, I'm glad there's finally a fanbase for her coming together, because really, I didn't see it last season.  So that's good!  I like that!  And...that's what I got.

[Ruby25]

Well, I'm glad you're optimistic and I agree that it's possible her screentime and storyline will be increased in the second half, especially considering the addition of the Wally West character. And I also think you're probably right (hopefully) that Patty may be dispensed with faster than we think, at least once they get into the second half- and I mostly think that because they got her and Barry together very quickly compared to some of the other stalling romances from this team (Oliver/Sara and Felicity/Ray on Arrow), and that would seem to indicate doom, imo. I'll be surprised if this relationship actually lasts significantly longer than those two did (O/S were eight episodes total and R/F were actually just five), and especially with even more new characters coming on. If it feels unnecessary now, then I don't see how it won't get even worse if they drag it out the entire season.

 

So I'm reserving judgment in some cases, but I don't think there's anything wrong with making our voices heard right now. I hope they're aware of how obvious it is that she's been utterly sidelined and it's very, very wrong of them to be doing that.

[phoenics]

I for one don't want to see Patty killed - that would just be another avenue for more Barry man pain and I just cannot handle anymore of that right now. Plus it would feel too much like Sara on Arrow and I just don't want anymore of those comparisons.

I hope Iris' story and screen time is being held for the back half, but this same scenario happened on Sleepy Hollow with Abbie Mills and we all said, "oh her story will be on the back half" and NOPE. Many of us are jaded. And I have no doubt that Wally is coming and that part of the story will heat up, I just get the feeling that Iris will be sidelined in that story too. The story with her mom garnered her TWO scenes with her mom and one with her dad.

That's it. Three scenes.

Barry and Joe had FAR more. It's galling that BARRY had more scenes about Iris' life than Iris herself did... I expect the back half to do the same thing. It lets the writers keep Iris there for face value, but all of the real screen time goes to Barry or Joe, or hell, Patty.

Also, I keep talking about their relationship specifically because that's how I got brought over to this thread in the first place.

Except this is the lightning rod thread - there is another thread for relationships.

[Rai]

Oy. Someone specifically said they were taking their response to my post about the relationship stuff over to this thread. Therefore, I was responding to that response initially when entering the broader discussion.

Thinking I should quit while I'm behind though. I like fun, friendly debate, but if my stance is pissing people off -- possibly by being a bit misinterpreted -- then I don't want to agitate anyone further.

[phoenics]

Oh I'm not pissed off - I just thought there was some confusion.

I think that also the post you're talking about - that was brought over here for discussion - the reason it was brought was because that poster (and others - including me) thought that it delved into lightning rod topics like sexism and racism. That's why they brought it here because usually we're supposed to try to contain that kind of talk here.

[zannej]

I think my issue with Patty is that she seems to be too forced in and suddenly has more screentime than she should. I have another show I watch where my favorite character has been wallflowered for the last several years. He gets less screentime than the 2nd to last billed actress on the show (and that actress got more screentime than the first billed actors-- even more insultingly, she's a mediocre actress and her character sucks). I think when the writers just don't know how to write for a character, they just try to come up with new characters. I want to like Patty, but seem to be cramming her in with a crowbar and didn't allow for things to evolve naturally. She just was up in your face far too soon with other characters suddenly endorsing the relationship instead of telling Barry to give Iris time to recover and let things develop. If Barry and Patty had just gotten to know each other without it being a forced dating thing it would have been better. I like subtlety in writing and with Patty there is absolutely no subtlety.

 

I don't want Patty to die, but I think they are rushing the whole relationship thing. Speaking of relationships, do you think Earth-2 Wells would be pissed if his daughter ended up dating Cisco? (Since he doesn't like Cisco)

[Ruby25]

I think my issue with Patty is that she seems to be too forced in and suddenly has more screentime than she should. I have another show I watch where my favorite character has been wallflowered for the last several years. He gets less screentime than the 2nd to last billed actress on the show (and that actress got more screentime than the first billed actors-- even more insultingly, she's a mediocre actress and her character sucks). I think when the writers just don't know how to write for a character, they just try to come up with new characters. I want to like Patty, but seem to be cramming her in with a crowbar and didn't allow for things to evolve naturally. She just was up in your face far too soon with other characters suddenly endorsing the relationship instead of telling Barry to give Iris time to recover and let things develop. If Barry and Patty had just gotten to know each other without it being a forced dating thing it would have been better. I like subtlety in writing and with Patty there is absolutely no subtlety.

 

I don't want Patty to die, but I think they are rushing the whole relationship thing. Speaking of relationships, do you think Earth-2 Wells would be pissed if his daughter ended up dating Cisco? (Since he doesn't like Cisco)

I'd like to see Cisco date Jesse Quick just to see Harry's reaction, lol.

 

As for Patty, I agree they are really rushing things...which is why I'm a little suspicious of it. Like I mentioned, they didn't do that with the other stalling romances on Arrow, with Oliver/Sara or Felicity/Ray. Makes me think it'll fall apart faster, maybe soon into the second half. They really seemed to want Barry to get with somebody else fast. I too hope she doesn't die, just because I don't want to have to see him in mourning for a whole season following it. I'd rather she dump him and leave town when she finds out he's The Flash or something.

[zannej]

I'd like to see Cisco date Jesse Quick just to see Harry's reaction, lol.

 

As for Patty, I agree they are really rushing things...which is why I'm a little suspicious of it. Like I mentioned, they didn't do that with the other stalling romances on Arrow, with Oliver/Sara or Felicity/Ray. Makes me think it'll fall apart faster, maybe soon into the second half. They really seemed to want Barry to get with somebody else fast. I too hope she doesn't die, just because I don't want to have to see him in mourning for a whole season following it. I'd rather she dump him and leave town when she finds out he's The Flash or something.

Maybe it will turn out that she's secretly a villain-in-disguise or she will end up becoming one via mind control or something else. I dunno. But something about her just set off my spidey sense with "something is wrong".

 

I think another thing with Patty is that she seems to be trying too hard to fit in or get Barry's attention rather than just being patient. And the whole "transparency" thing with Joe-- Joe didn't even want her on his team to begin with and there she is pushing. Not that I have a problem with women who go for what they want, but there is a time and place to be pushy. If it were a guy doing the same thing, I'd think it was creepy/annoying. Plus some of the excuses she came up with to try to spend time with Barry were just cringeworthy.

 

I wish I could say that women would do a better job of writing, but some of the worst writing I've ever seen for women has come from female writers. Sometimes the female writers hate other women or hate certain female characters. Or they fall into the trap of trying to make the characters so incredibly perfect or great at the expense of other characters because a woman can't be considered equal unless she is better than the males. She can't get respect for just being equal to the males or just being more realistic and being brave and doing the best she can. A woman who can't beat a man in a fistfight is considered weak. Its sort of like when they did some studies and found that minority applicants had to be significantly better than their white counterparts to even be considered. I believe they said that AA applicants needed to have more years of experience to get hired than a white applicant.

 

I really want to see the women on this show being treated as intelligent and having their own agency instead of totally relying on the male characters. I don't want them to make every decision based on the male leads. They should have their own opinions and feelings and not worry about what the men think. But, I also think they should know when to ask for help. I was watching "Criminal Minds" last night and a black female reporter went into a dark alley with a guy she suspected was a murderer. I immediately thought about Iris and thought that if Iris went into a situation like that, she'd be smart to have Cisco on an ear mic listening in and able to send Barry to her location in an instant.

 

For some reason I could see Wells walking in on Cisco kissing Jesse. Wells says "Don't touch my daughter!" and Jesse says "Dad! I'm an adult!" and he says "Go to your room!"  Ok... Probably wouldn't happen like that. LOL.

[phoenics]

Well, I still see Patty as being the same as Eddie, so she could potentially be here all season long like he was... but given the actress has a new show already, maybe she'll be done by mid-season. I don't know.

All I know is that I don't want a lot of man pain over her being gone. Barry has been brooding this season and it's just not ... normal, lol. Even in S1 with his mom's death hanging over him, he wasn't so dark and brooding. Now he definitely is. Please no more man pain.

I'd almost prefer that Patty just got a great job offer somewhere and took it - because Barry couldn't or wouldn't come with her and because she couldn't pass up the opportunity - and maybe she sensed that they only had a temp love, or that he was hiding something from her... ?

I really hope they don't do her like Mason on Lois and Clark... although Clark didn't have much man pain over that since he and Lois were finally getting together.

[Ruby25]

I also very much maintain that she's the most expendable character with Wally coming soon, and as a series regular to boot, which neither she nor Jay are. When that story starts, something else is gonna have to give, and it's obviously not the E2, Zoom and Wells stuff, which will only increase. But the B/P stuff? I think it'll be played out by then and she's disposable. So, yeah...the fact that they're focusing on it heavily right now has to be for a reason. I think. Seems only logical anyway.

[phoenics]

Oh I see - you mean that since they are focusing on it so hard and heavy right now is because they mean for it to burn out quickly to make room for Wally, et al.

Maybe.

I guess we could argue that Eddie was around so long because it was more so for Barry's pain and to contrast that with what we find out about Westallen in the future.

[Actionmage]

Also, I keep talking about their relationship specifically because that's how I got brought over to this thread in the first place.

 

Someone specifically said they were taking their response to my post about the relationship stuff over to this thread.

 

 

 

the reason it was brought was because that poster (and others - including me) thought that it delved into lightning rod topics like sexism and racism.

 

Yes, thank you phoenics. You are very eloquent and I really enjoy your posts.  I brought that part over because a) relationship stuff isn't exclusive from lightning rod subjects  ( See: Iris and Joe!)  and b) the phrasing of "turns"  and parsing vitriol in a Eddie/ Patty way. Both struck me as, at base, a potentially sexist-leaning convo and since that is what this thread is for, I brought my opinions over.

 

I was responding to your words, not you Rai. I apologize for my lack of written clarity.

 

In fact, as I read your OP, I remember  folks indifferent or indifferent to the extent they wanted Eddie off the show. I don't think there was any hate, like Patty is getting, that much is true. I believe it is because no one thought that Iris would end up staying with Eddie.  With the lack of hot emotions on the audience's part, and a little bit of writing and Rick Cosnett's charisma, the audience came to be neutral to fans of Eddie, in that range.

 

Patty, on the other hand, is the third woman Barry has had feelings for in barely a season and a half. She is allowed to be a cop, even if Joe treats her shittily. She calls Joe out on his secretive behavior. She doesn't need to be armed, she is armed and Barry has made a point, in just this last episode, of being straightforward about how he feels to Patty.  All things Iris was not allowed. 

 

Iris was actively kept out of the police academy by her police detective father (somehow). She has largely let Joe's crappy radio silence or outright lies pass.( Because if she presses too hard or protests, he will freeze [and has frozen]  her out.) Apparently, Must-Be-Protected Iris was not okayed for a gun permit by the cop father who taught her how to box and in the actual use of firearms. Barry loved Iris since before he was 11 or so. In over a decade, not once was Barry able to clearly state how much he felt/loved/crushed on Iris. But two or three weeks after meeting Patty, he's all "how I feel about you makes me happy"? 

 

I applaud the honesty, but wonder why this couldn't happen for Iris. I can only speak for myself , but that is why I think Patty is getting the vitriol. Linda didn't get much, iirc, because she wasn't the seeming opposite of Iris, but she was different enough, that Linda was interesting and fun. Patty seems like everything Iris wanted- including not Barry, but honesty about his feelings- has been given to this newcomer.

 

PS: Linda was a sports journalist, not a police officer, but she was also unable to have Barry state why he liked her/loved her/whatever.( I don't care about the Ghost Pepper Self-Test. Self-harm isn't sexy.) Whether she had any weapons or defensive items to protect herself was either not addressed or I have forgotten. (If anyone does remember, feel free to correct me.)

Edited November 12, 2015 by Actionmage

[dirtypop90]

Yes, thank you phoenics. You are very eloquent and I really enjoy your posts. I brought that part over because a) relationship stuff isn't exclusive from lightning rod subjects ( See: Iris and Joe!) and b) the phrasing of "turns" and parsing vitriol in a Eddie/ Patty way. Both struck me as, at base, a potentially sexist-leaning convo and since that is what this thread is for, I brought my opinions over.

I was responding to your words, not you Rai. I apologize for my lack of written clarity.

In fact, as I read your OP, I remember folks indifferent or indifferent to the extent they wanted Eddie off the show. I don't think there was any hate, like Patty is getting, that much is true. I believe it is because no one thought that Iris would end up staying with Eddie. With the lack of hot emotions on the audience's part, and a little bit of writing and Rick Cosnett's charisma, the audience came to be neutral to fans of Eddie, in that range.

Patty, on the other hand, is the third woman Barry has had feelings for in barely a season and a half. She is allowed to be a cop, even if Joe treats her shittily. She calls Joe out on his secretive behavior. She doesn't need to be armed, she is armed and Barry has made a point, in just this last episode, of being straightforward about how he feels to Patty. All things Iris was not allowed.

Iris was actively kept out of the police academy by her police detective father (somehow). She has largely let Joe's crappy radio silence or outright lies pass.( Because if she presses too hard or protests, he will freeze [and has frozen] her out.) Apparently, Must-Be-Protected Iris was not okayed for a gun permit by the cop father who taught her how to box and in the actual use of firearms. Barry loved Iris since before he was 11 or so. In over a decade, not once was Barry able to clearly state how much he felt/loved/crushed on Iris. But two or three weeks after meeting Patty, he's all "how I feel about you makes me happy"?

I applaud the honesty, but wonder why this couldn't happen for Iris. I can only speak for myself , but that is why I think Patty is getting the vitriol. Linda didn't get much, iirc, because she wasn't the seeming opposite of Iris, but she was different enough, that Linda was interesting and fun. Patty seems like everything Iris wanted- including not Barry, but honesty about his feelings- has been given to this newcomer.

PS: Linda was a sports journalist, not a police officer, but she was also unable to have Barry state why he liked her/loved her/whatever.( I don't care about the Ghost Pepper Self-Test. Self-harm isn't sexy.) Whether she had any weapons or defensive items to protect herself was either not addressed or I have forgotten. (If anyone does remember, feel free to correct me.)

You pointed out some things here that I didn't even catch. Now I'm firmly in the group that believes patty has directly benefited from the hate Iris received in season one, i.e people complained Iris was willfully blind to Barry's feeling and were upset she didn't immediately hop on top of him when he confessed, so patty was very forward with Barry and Barry has already told her how he feels about her. But re Barry easily communicating his feelings for patty, I do think there has been a change in Barry's personality in season 2. I, for one, never saw him as the type of guy to put a girl against the wall at work and kiss her.

[Ruby25]

You pointed out some things here that I didn't even catch. Now I'm firmly in the group that believes patty has directly benefited from the hate Iris received in season one, i.e people complained Iris was willfully blind to Barry's feeling and were upset she didn't immediately hop on top of him when he confessed, so patty was very forward with Barry and Barry has already told her how he feels about her. But re Barry easily communicating his feelings for patty, I do think there has been a change in Barry's personality in season 2. I, for one, never saw him as the type of guy to put a girl against the wall at work and kiss her.

Yeah, me too. He has been different this season a bit. I guess Patty is so overtly into him that it gave him a confidence boost in that area. When someone's practically throwing themselves at you it's hard to think they'll refuse anything.

 

Although honestly, this goes back a little bit to my theory that the show doesn't want him to be seen as an experienced puppy dog, and despite the celebration of his character last season for the depiction of non-traditional musculinity, I still think the writers/producers or whoever (maybe thinking about the show's target demo, which is young men), obviously now want to hand him the "hot, blonde, nerd male fantasy woman" as a conquest before he ultimately ends up with Iris.

 

Sigh. I actually miss his puppy dog quality of the first season though. That's kind of what drew me into the show and his character, as I thought he was so endearing and I don't really see him like that anymore. I still like him, but it's not quite the same. And I feel like this Patty stuff is a total cliche and such an obvious attempt to properly make him more of "a man" in that department that it's kind of pissing me off.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Moving my answer to the relationship thread... then I'll come back to discuss the sexism part...

Did anyone ever watch The OC? I ask because I think they handled the "adorkable virgin" story really well with Seth Cohen. They managed to keep him sweet and adorable even AFTER he had two women vying for him... they didn't make him look out of character at all. They actually let him be a virgin and let Summer be his first! Amazing!

I too miss the sweetness of Barry lately - he's been throwing off way too many Oliver vibes for me. I think even with the way everything happened so fast with Patty (like 2-3 eps) made it really hard to even see him "like" her except seeing him smile at her and seeing her smile a lot back.

There was an actual sexual heat that used to come off of him in the ways he snuck glances at Iris that I guess I miss. The once over looks, the look he'd give her as the Flash out in the open... whew *fans self*

But then there were also the sweet ways he looked at her too - and that feels lost this season... they've had hardly any scenes together and in 2 of them, Iris is having to play the "make Barry see reason" role which means he's often annoyed, even though he then goes and does whatever she says anyway.

But it's frustrating. It feels like the show is attempting to not show Westallen to bolster Batty. That's dumb.

Edited November 13, 2015 by phoenics

[Rai]

Oh man, I can't keep track of how many threads this conversation is going to cross, but if Eddie didn't get flak because everyone knew somehow in their hearts he was temporary, then I legit don't get why Patty wouldn't also be automatically considered temporary. I'm so confused.

And with the actor's body language, it felt more like Barry was trying to shield their kissing behind a pillar, not that he was getting all dominant.

[Ruby25]

Oh man, I can't keep track of how many threads this conversation is going to cross, but if Eddie didn't get flak because everyone knew somehow in their hearts he was temporary, then I legit don't get why Patty wouldn't also be automatically considered temporary. I'm so confused.

And with the actor's body language, it felt more like Barry was trying to shield their kissing behind a pillar, not that he was getting all dominant.

Well, for one thing, I actually think Patty may have had more screentime already than anything we ever saw from Eddie last season. She's being shoved down our throats hard. I think she is temporary, but for someone temporary, she's sure getting a lot of focus, and why should she get more focus than Iris?

 

Do the writers dislike Candice Patton or something? Or do the producers/network prefer scenes for Patty because they know she's the super hot, blonde white girl that the target demo of young male viewers automatically respond to (I've noticed majority male commenters on sites like IGN and AV Club all like Patty, but only for one reason: she's "hot" and they're ALL drooling over her, she needs no other characteristics to be likable and they certainly aren't pointing any out). And possibly (and I know this is controversial), she's the kind of typical, white hottie that the CW may have wanted for the female lead in the first place?

 

When they cut an important, emotional Iris scene from an episode and don't cut pointless ones with guest star Patty, it makes me wonder.

 

As for the OC thing- that show was actually set in high school, so I think it was okay for Seth to be seen as inexperienced since he was still a kid. Barry is 25, right? There are inexperienced people in their 20s (and he seems to be one, imo, since "Becky Cooper" seems to have been his one and only girlfriend), but I don't think the show wants people to think of him that way, and I think they're handing him super hot "Cool Girl" Patty Spivot on a platter so that we know for sure he's not (or soon won't be). It's a rejection of the praise they received last year for depicting all that "non-traditional" masculinity, because they still want us to know he can pull a girl that looks like her with basically zero effort (she'll throw herself at him, even).

 

And the pillar thing- I think that's part of the attempt to show us that confident, cocky "manliness." I couldn't have pictured him doing that last season either. So it's annoying to me that they didn't think he was fine the way he was (that was the reason I liked him so much), but that he has to become a bit more studly before he can actually be with Iris.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Ruby25

[SevenStars]

Oh man, I can't keep track of how many threads this conversation is going to cross, but if Eddie didn't get flak because everyone knew somehow in their hearts he was temporary, then I legit don't get why Patty wouldn't also be automatically considered temporary. I'm so confused.

Because Eddie wasn't taking screen time away from Iris or anyone else. Eddie was barley seen or heard from until the last few episodes. Because when Eddie existed the writers didn't minimize Barry/Iris friendship. Eddie was temporary and the writers treated him as such. So people really had no reason to complain too much about him except that they would have liked to see a little bit more of him in relation to Iris so they could understand why Iris stayed with him despite knowing how Barry feels about her.

[Xander]

Last season's Barry/Iris scenes weren't really about friendship but about Barry's unrequited love. That's why it's different this season. His real best friend is actually Joe and while they've given some of those scenes to Iris, majority of them will still be with Joe.

[Rai]

Well, I just rewatched the back half of Season One because Netflix, and I felt like Eddie got substantial screen time.  And I don't feel like Patty gets more than he did. 

 

But I also don't think I really have much to contribute here either, so I'll probably just stick to the episode threads.  I definitely appreciate people aren't jumping down my throat.  It's nice we can discuss this from all angles!  But I'm really not viewing anything the same way or at least, certain things just don't bug me the same way, so there's not a lot more I think I can add to the conversation.

[phoenics]

Last season's Barry/Iris scenes weren't really about friendship but about Barry's unrequited love. That's why it's different this season. His real best friend is actually Joe and while they've given some of those scenes to Iris, majority of them will still be with Joe.

You may have a point.

Which brings us back to the sexism around Love Interests on shows like this and what to do once you aren't the "main" one. But even still in other CW shows, I don't remember Lana Lang being shoved to the side until she left the show because they had to make way for Lois. If there was a "Lana" in Barry's life, then I could understand, but "Patty" is technically the "Lana" - Iris is actually the "Lois".

Maybe the show is attempting to reset and tell the story from that angle now?

No idea.

I miss Seth Cohen.

[Ruby25]

You mean making Patty his Lois Lane? God, I hope not.

[phoenics]

You mean making Patty his Lois Lane? God, I hope not.

Noooo, lol. I mean making Patty more the Lana right now... a love interest, but one you know won't last because eventually Lois will show up and show out. Iris is already there, but downplaying her significance right now may be the writers trying to let Batty "breathe" a bit first.

Eventually Westallen will be undeniable - I just hate how they are sucking away Iris' screen time. They never did that to Lana until it was time to shift over to Lois and they slowly "ghosted" Lana away.

[Ruby25]

It's also following a similar thing that The Office did with Jim/Pam actually- I forgot about that one, but I was watching a video today with the Hitfix tv critic Alan Sepinwall responding to and agreeing with a viewer question asking why both The Flash and Agents of SHIELD wasted no time this season in setting up irritating, middle-school level love triangles (lol).

 

He brought up Jim and Pam and it made me remember that that show also did the same exact thing that this one did, with Jim in love with Pam who had a fiance, then the fiance's out of the picture, but they wasted the entirety of the third season on Jim having a pointless other girlfriend in Rashida Jones, before he and Pam finally got together. I also remember now how much I hated the storyline and how much it made me not care about Jim/Pam anymore by the time they got together- it felt anticlimactic (and I had LOVED them in the first two seasons).

 

I will give them credit for never breaking up Jim/Pam after that though- at least they put them together and had them stay together, get married and have kids until the show was over.

 

I don't know if this one will do that too, but they should, since Barry/Iris have that iconic history of marriage, children and grandchildren in the comics. I wouldn't mind if they wanted to have them apart at some point, by doing something like sending Iris to the future, or having her kidnapped/presumed dead or other things comic book related like that, but for the love of god, I so HATE third party love interests and pointless, boring stalling relationships. No one CARES about them, it'd be more interesting if they did do things like have them separated by other worlds and trying to get back to each other, or whatever. This stuff is such a boring, obvious, cliched trope, and worse, here it brings up all these suspicions abut racism and possible network interference when they do stuff like cut Iris's scenes in favor of this blonde, white, super hot plastic person like Patty. I hate it.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Ruby25

[VCRTracking]

He brought up Jim and Pam and it made me remember that that show also did the same exact thing that this one did, with Jim in love with Pam who had a fiance, then the fiance's out of the picture, but they wasted the entirety of the third season on Jim having a pointless other girlfriend in Rashida Jones, before he and Pam finally got together. I also remember now how much I hated the storyline and how much it made me not care about Jim/Pam anymore by the time they got together- it felt anticlimactic (and I had LOVED them in the first two seasons).

 

The triangle actually only made me dislike Pam. I did not blame Jim from moving on after being rejected at the end of Season 2 and I didn't like that Rashida Jones's character Karen was villified by some fans when it was Pam who needed to grow a spine.

[Ruby25]

Yeah, and we knew that Pam did love Jim, she just needed to gain some confidence in herself.

 

At this point, I don't know how they're planning to resurrect WA if Iris doesn't even care at all that he's dating someone else. Isn't it going to feel out of nowhere if they never let us see how she feels about him? Those feelings they revealed last season from her are presumably still there, since they NEVER resolved them, but they have to still show us that it exists. It doesn't make sense that her feelings for Barry would have disappeared forever just because of Eddie's death, but that's what they're making it seem like.

 

I personally think dragging things out for entire extra seasons tends to make everything feel anticlimactic and unsatisfying when it happens, because it's just been too long. And I never understand why anyone is expected to invest in or enjoy watching pointless, obviously stalling romances with a person who's designed to be temporary. It's baffling to me why writers think that's entertaining. To watch it go on for months, just waiting for it to be over? Seriously? Why do they do this?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Ruby25