Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[Prevailing Wind]

I think I finally have it figured out.  Way back in season 1, Aunt Marie was dying of cancer.  Before she arrived at N&J's house, she blacked out and was taken to the hospital, where she is now, on heavy-duty drugs. The rest of the show has been a drug-induced dream.  She's still alive, having dreamed all this crap, which is why things seem so disjointed & plot lines are dropped without another thought...it's all a DREAM!!  Kelly's beheading?  Sibling rivalry at its worst - but, hey, it's a dream. It doesn't count.  Probably aren't even anything such as Grimms or Wesen.

[spaulding]

Now, we have the female in the cell who is literally being beaten into submission by a man (and I'm not going to think too hard about who the man is because I'm not yet ready to give up on my lust for Meisner).  So, twice now, the show has gone down that road.

 

That's an interesting perspective...that Meisner is beating whoever is in the cell. Because, when he came out and he was bloody, I just assumed it was the woman/cell occupant who beat up on HIM. It was mentioned up thread (or maybe it was a different thread?) regarding the possibility of the person in the cell being "reprogrammed" . And my assumption was that Meisner was getting his ass beat a little as he is doing his "reprogramming".

 

 

I hope that neither scenario is happening.  It's assumed that men don't beat on women.  I can't image that the writers are that oblivious.  I don't want a female beating on a male either. 

 

Locking somebody in a cell and beating/breaking him/her/it into submission isn't OK.  Or keeping him/her/it in a cell to control him/her/it.  The writers better tread carefully about what's happening inside that cell. 

 

Especially with the Meisner character.  Like Roiz, he's likable.  He shouldn't be labeled as a female beater, and he shouldn't lose his alpha male status by letting a female beat on him.  Whatever is happening in the cell, I don't want the Meisner character to be damaged beyond repair. 

 

Once upon a time, this show was about creature folk who lived among normal people.  It was green and lush and light.  Now, we're wondering if the Meisner character is beating on a female or letting a female beat on him. 

 

Won what?  The Royals barely interacted with our main characters at all before being taken out and they wasted 4 seasons on them.

 

Four seasons of wondering what the Royals really want--apart from magical keys and magical coins.

 

hey, it's a dream. It doesn't count.

 

I wouldn't mind if the show was rebooted.  It needs something because it's such a mess of a show.  Aunt Marie was a likable character, so I wouldn't mind a scenario where she and Kelly are still alive.

[OtterMommy]

 

I hope that neither scenario is happening.  It's assumed that men don't beat on women.  I can't image that the writers are that oblivious.  I don't want a female beating on a male either.

 

Just one episode ago, Nick hit a woman hard enough to knock her unconscious.....just saying.

 

 

Locking somebody in a cell and beating/breaking him/her/it into submission isn't OK.  Or keeping him/her/it in a cell to control him/her/it.  The writers better tread carefully about what's happening inside that cell.

 

I will say, going back to my original post, I didn't find it as objectionable the first time it was done because I thought:

1 - This is an illustration of how twisted Viktor is

2 - They have some special effects money to burn so...

 

However, when they did it (we think!) again, it really started to bother me.  To be fair, we don't yet know if Meisner is good or bad

although the spoilers and "set pics" from the cast during filming point to him being an ally, not an enemy.

 But, there is a big difference between being a villain and being a bully.  Villains are nuanced characters whose motives are not always known and, frankly, do not always come from a place of evil.  Bullies beat up people who are weaker than they are.  I really hope the creative team knows that difference.

 

 

Once upon a time, this show was about creature folk who lived among normal people.  It was green and lush and light.  Now, we're wondering if the Meisner character is beating on a female or letting a female beat on him.

 

That says so much about this show right now....

Edited November 13, 2015 by OtterMommy

[spaulding]

Just one episode ago, Nick hit a woman hard enough to knock her unconscious.....just saying.

 

Ack!  I forgot about that. 

 

And the Scooby Doo gang didn't look good while they were intimidating a woman who was tied to a chair. 

 

 

However, when they did it (we think!) again, it really started to bother me.  To be fair, we don't yet know if Meisner is good or bad  But, there is a big difference between being a villain and being a bully.  Villains are nuanced characters whose motives are not always known and, frankly, do not always come from a place of evil.  Bullies beat up people who are weaker than they are.  I really hope the creative team knows that difference.

 

Even with villains, I hope that this show doesn't go there. 

 

Maybe because I like Meisner.  He can be a villain you love to hate.  But if he's beating on a female for whatever reason, it doesn't sit well.  (And this show knows nothing about nuance.)

 

I don't know.  Grimm isn't Game of Thrones. 

[Free]

I wouldn't mind if the show was rebooted.  It needs something because it's such a mess of a show.  Aunt Marie was a likable character, so I wouldn't mind a scenario where she and Kelly are still alive.

 

This season was supposed to be a reboot with an angsting Nick and Nick/Adalind scenes, that and replacing the Royals.  It's just more bs because of the writing staff.

[merylinkid]

I'm not sure any beating is going on.   I think whatever is in the cell, is a very violent creature and Meisner just got injured while bringing in food.   Think Hagrid's Giant Brother.   Sometimes booboos happen because they don't under their own strength.   Whatever is in the cell for the protection of others and itself.   Not any nefarious purpose.

 

But you know what?   We all have a different perspective because the writers don't bloody explain anything.    They just leave it all "mysterious" or "ambigous" so they can write whatever they want when the want.   Remember season 1 Juliette?   She was such a cipher because she was directed to play it ambigous.   Does she have power?   Is she just a regular human?   Is she Wesen?   Something else?   Why?   Because the writers had no plan for her character.   She was just Nick's girlfriend.   No backstory, no development.   Until they needed her to do something.

[TVSpectator]

I'm not sure any beating is going on.   I think whatever is in the cell, is a very violent creature and Meisner just got injured while bringing in food.   Think Hagrid's Giant Brother.   Sometimes booboos happen because they don't under their own strength.   Whatever is in the cell for the protection of others and itself.   Not any nefarious purpose.

 

But you know what?   We all have a different perspective because the writers don't bloody explain anything.    They just leave it all "mysterious" or "ambigous" so they can write whatever they want when the want.   Remember season 1 Juliette?   She was such a cipher because she was directed to play it ambigous.   Does she have power?   Is she just a regular human?   Is she Wesen?   Something else?   Why?   Because the writers had no plan for her character.   She was just Nick's girlfriend.   No backstory, no development.   Until they needed her to do something.

 

The reason I think that the writing sucks is because the writers don't have a plan. They have ideas, but those ideas are never really fully explored/explained on the show. 

[Actionmage]

Try to creatively juggle all the characters, comedic interludes, and plot development with only 10 days to brainstorm - that's very hard.

 

Daytime soap operas pump out 250 new episodes a year, so I have never bought how hard it is to write just 22 episodes for primetime.

 

I understand and empathize with writers for any scripted show. It's when the folks putting out 24 episodes in primetime can't keep track of the stuff they made sure to point out to the audience as Super Important- Look At It Some More!!!! and refuse to conclude their story or talk about said Important Stuff ever again. There is a position that is supposed to keep track of that stuff.  Soaps are looked down on for all sorts of reasons, but they are tighter in continuity than Grimm and when they eff up, they lampshade it and chug on, if they can't fix it in-story. ( The One Life To Live Blair Daimler casting comes to mind.)  Plus, soaps generally are taped live, so while there can be retakes, it's more costly due to the sheer amount of taping they have to get done on a daily basis.

 

Remember season 1 Juliette?   She was such a cipher because she was directed to play it ambiguous.

 

 

I remember when it came out that that was Bitsie's direction and was so angry on her behalf! That's not  a direction, that's a cop-out on the writer's part. It goes to Claire obviously being told to unambiguously play evil. Which is why no one is really buying that Adalind's just a future PTA mom.

 

Another problem they have had is keeping the writers room consistent. There may be more consistency this season from last, but we're three eps in. Thomas Ian Griffin is Story Editor, iirc. I believe that is what position he held last season too. The show is definitely male-heavy in the writers it hires. The women they've hired are a usual mix (good/bad/meh), but there is rarely any consistency in who is asked back to write and the ladies asked back dwindle each season.

 

added:

The next episode is supposedly written by Brenna Kouf. She has written three other episodes, mainly from last season. They were:

 

*"Mommy Dearest", the aswang episode, featuring Sgt. Wu

*"Chupacabra", the infected doctor returns to Portland and Wu demands answers of Nick & Hank, and

* "Double Date", the episode with the grifter wesen and the Olive Or Twist bar

 

Plus, she worked as a writers assistant for three or so years.  ::crosses fingers::

Edited November 14, 2015 by Actionmage

[OtterMommy]

You know, there is another big problem that the creative team of this show refuses to acknowledge.

 

Grimm isn't the only monster-fighting, fairy-teller, people-aren't-who-they-seem show on the block.

 

I think people tuned into this show because the premise interested them--and it IS a great premise--but it's not an exactly unique premise.

 

If you want retellings of fairy tales, you can watch Once Upon a Time.  If you want guys fighting ghosts and monsters and urban myths, you can watch Supernatural.  To be fair, I can't comment on how well these shows do their job because I could only get through about 3 episodes of OUAT before mine brain started melting from the stupidity.  And, well, I've seen exactly one episode of Supernatural (only because OtterDaddy and I just turned it on via Netflix for the first time...but, don't I have, like, 12 years of episode for that one?)

 

Back in the 5.03, I mentioned that I would be forgoing Grimm and catching up on Agents of Shield instead on Friday night.  Guess what...I got my humans-morphing-into-monsters fix right there.  And, for that show, I can say that they, frankly, do it far better than Grimm has since maybe season 1.  The story, while relatively new to the show, is more intriguing and better-written.  Last night there was a twist we NEVER saw coming (we were 2 episodes behind..so it was the episode AFTER the Simmons-centric episode, for those that followed), and the CGI is a hell of a lot better.

 

So, say I'm a viewer who is just fed up with the story lines, or lack thereof on Grimm, I have options.

 

Given this, the creative team has to do the following things:

1 - Fix the damn show so you don't lose anymore viewers

2 - Come up with a coherent story line that sets this show apart from Once Upon a Time, Supernatural, and Agents of Shield (and since it has to deal with 3 shows, that's a very tall order).

3 - Really invest in writing and story creation to regain the trust of your viewers AND try to woo some of the viewers you lost back to the show.

 

ETA: Generally bad writing.  It's too damn early and my kids are too damn loud....

Edited November 14, 2015 by OtterMommy

[TVSpectator]

You know, there is another big problem that the creative team of this show refuses to acknowledge.

 

Grimm isn't the only monster-fighting, fairy-teller, people-aren't-who-they-seem show on the block.

 

I think people tuned into this show because the premise interested them--and it IS a great premise--but it's not an exactly unique premise.

 

If you want retellings of fairy tales, you can watch Once Upon a Time.  If you want guys fighting ghosts and monsters and urban myths, you can watch Supernatural.  To be fair, I can't comment on how well these shows do their job because I could only get through about 3 episodes of OUAT before mine brain started melting from the stupidity.  And, well, I've seen exactly one episode of Supernatural (only because OtterDaddy and I just turned it on via Netflix for the first time...but, don't I have, like, 12 years of episode for that one?)

 

Back in the 5.03, I mentioned that I would be forgoing Grimm and catching up on Agents of Shield instead on Friday night.  Guess what...I got my humans-morphing-into-monsters fix right there.  And, for that show, I can say that they, frankly, do it far better than Grimm has since maybe season 1.  The story, while relatively new to the show, is more intriguing and better-written.  Last night there was a twist we NEVER saw coming (we were 2 episodes behind..so it was the episode AFTER the Simmons-centric episode, for those that followed), and the CGI is a hell of a lot better.

 

So, say I'm a viewer who is just fed up with the story lines, or lack thereof on Grimm, I have options.

 

Given this, the creative team has to do the following things:

1 - Fix the damn show so you don't lose anymore viewers

2 - Come up with a coherent story line that sets this show apart from Once Upon a Time, Supernatural, and Agents of Shield (and since it has to deal with 3 shows, that's a very tall order).

3 - Really invest in writing and story creation to regain the trust of your viewers AND try to woo some of the viewers you lost back to the show.

 

ETA: Generally bad writing.  It's too damn early and my kids are too damn loud....

 

Oh, IMo, AoS is a better show that actually doesn't let the viewers hanging. Although, like 80%-90% of the source material can be found in the comics, but still it's a good show. 

 

Also, I totally agree that Grimm needs to do those three things. Although, I think that, on TV,  supernatural base shows are pretty popular, right now. So Grimm is just part of the current crop, but the writing has been lagging behind with the rest of the other shows. 

 

Edit: I don't know if you know this but you can catch up with AoS Seasons 1-2 by streaming it on Netflix and you can also watch all but the most current episode on Hulu, for free. The most current one is where Hulu only allows it subscribers to watch.

Edited November 14, 2015 by TVSpectator

[OtterMommy]

Edit: I don't know if you know this but you can catch up with AoS Seasons 1-2 by streaming it on Netflix and you can also watch all but the most current episode on Hulu, for free. The most current one is where Hulu only allows it subscribers to watch.

 

My husband and I spent this past summer catching up on AoS, so we are now almost up to date--only one episode behind.

 

 But Grimm could learn a lot from that show.  Every season of Grimm has ended with a "cliff hanger"  (typed quotes = air quotes) that everyone knows will be cleaned up in the first couple episodes of the next season and that everyone, or at least the few people watching, spend the summer complaining about.  AoS actually does a pretty good job of wrapping up a story line (what concept!) each season and then throws in a little teaser in the season finale to keep people back for the next season.

 

Grimm also, how should I put this, fails in every conceivable way to a degree that I didn't think was even possible when it comes to switching characters from the "good" column to the "bad" column or from the "bad" column to the "good" column.  AoS, on the other hand, does that VERY well--partly because their characters move from "good" to "bad" instead of the other way around.  It is far easier to "betray" the audience with a character they've grown to trust that to tell them that they should all of a sudden trust a character who has done nothing over 4 years of a show to earn a shred of that trust.

 

I'll be honest, the only hope for Grimm at this point is for NBC to put on its big boy pants and fire Carpenter, Greenwalt, and Kouf.  Grimm does have a bargaining chip in that, no matter how bad the ratings are, it is still the highest rated NBC show on Friday nights.  I guess the question is whether or not that is good enough to let Grimm continue to slip or if they are willing to take action now to try and rescue the show...if they can.

Edited November 14, 2015 by OtterMommy

[Starchild]

Thomas Ian Griffin is Story Editor, iirc.

And a former soap opera actor. Which might explain a lot.

[OtterMommy]

Yeah, you are right, it would never happen. I was just thinking that since we saw a retirement home for Wesen and even a parallel government system that is run by them, I was just wondering if they would have a parallel court system, that is actually part of the larger human world (like with that one doctor from last season).

I doubt that this show would even be bother to do a storyline like that now with HexenJuliette and babies running around

 

 

 

The thing is, this is the sort of story lines this show SHOULD be doing!  One of original things I loved about this show was how there was this whole population of people living just under the radar.  They functioned in the "real" world, yet still had their own societal structures.  I think the show did a good enough job with that in the first season or two...but now we have full blown baby drama.  

 

Sigh....

[neuromom]

Thank you, Starchild. I thought I was the only one that thought of that! I see his name and I think "oh, no, it's Grimm-soap time!" i checked IMDB and found the episodes he was involved in, and I don't recall any of them as being "stand outs" to me.

[Starchild]

Though he is clearly having an influence on the writer's room.

[neuromom]

So, did the writers/producers not say that this season was supposed to be "darker"? (As a result of everything Nick as been through). When EXACTLY is that "darkness" supposed to set in? Because Nick and Adalind "playing house" and Rosalee being abducted by kids who were never much of a threat to her is not "dark". And this all occurred to me because my son is in the other room rewatching "Mr Sandman" which really was creepy.

Oh wait, I think I just figured it out.."darker" refers to the fight scenes, which are literally not lit well enough for me to discern what is actually going on.

[OtterMommy]

So, did the writers/producers not say that this season was supposed to be "darker"? (As a result of everything Nick as been through). When EXACTLY is that "darkness" supposed to set in? Because Nick and Adalind "playing house" and Rosalee being abducted by kids who were never much of a threat to her is not "dark". And this all occurred to me because my son is in the other room rewatching "Mr Sandman" which really was creepy.

Oh wait, I think I just figured it out.."darker" refers to the fight scenes, which are literally not lit well enough for me to discern what is actually going on.

 

 

I think by darker they mean "not fun."  

 

There was an element of fun throughout the first two seasons and frequently in the third.  There were one or two episodes that might have qualified as fun in the 4th season, but they weren't as successful on that front.  But, it was during that season that the fun disappeared and the angst set in.

 

With a show like this, I NEED the fun and it just isn't there anymore...because it's DARK.

[Prevailing Wind]

I'm tellin' ya...it's all a drug-induced dream Aunt Marie's having.  'Cause, y'know, the current writing is JUST LIKE a stupid dream...makes as much sense as Bob Dylan's 115th Dream:

"Ran out to the street
When a bowling ball came down the road
And knocked me off my feet
A pay phone was ringing
It just about blew my mind
When I picked it up and said hello
This foot came through the line"

 

We never find out what happened to the bowling ball or the pay phone, just like the coins & the keys & so much other stuff... It's a dream.  And I'll probably keep on watching until Marie wakes up, just to see how dreamy they can get.

[Actionmage]

The world got out of the writers' hands.

 

I would say more that it was

They didn't know how to deal with it.

 

 

The world of S1 was small enough with the little spots of Rosalie's ex, the Resistance guy, and the Key and The Coins and Monroe's family stories and stories of the Royal houses.  It feels like there were too many cooks in the kitchen, or that the head chefs told the sous chefs to make too many dishes.  Which is fine, but if there are going to be loose ends, to change metaphors, tie some up before moving on!  It doesn't have to be a permanent closing off, just an ending for now. Let us sort of forget about that storyline then surprise us with a clever return to it that makes sense.

 

Once Upon A Time was mentioned earlier, but they are bad about stuff too. If you are incensed about how Adalind's raping is handled, then do not ever ask a OUAT fan about The Evil Queen/ Regina, or her half- sister, The Wicked Witch of the West. That discussion does no one's blood pressure any good.

 

Yet Grimm seems to have forgotten what got it to the dance in the first place, in an effort to be either relevant, hip, or some other ephemeral thing.I am not against a series getting darker if it makes sense. The show isn't called Happy, so I knew dark creep could happen. It makes sense as Nick's a cop as well as a grimm. It's that there have been writing choices that were less than helpful.

 

I am not talking about choosing a direction for the writing and it doesn't work; that happens everywhere on the dial. The supposed corrections have been so off or off-putting to huge numbers of viewers, that every time there is a correction it seems to end up making things worse narratively.  It makes me wonder if that is part of the shifting roster of the writers or if it might be a problem from higher up.  If EPs/showrunners are supposed to be the ones in charge of story/ story planning, then they may be the ones choosing bad story direction?

 

I don't want to say the emperor has no clothes, because I have enjoyed this show more than I haven't, but , well, you've read this thread. There have been and continue to be problems. It can't just be the writers.

[OtterMommy]

If you want more proof that there is a major retcon going on...

 

This is going to sound really conspiracy theory-ish, I know.  I didn't believe it until I actually tried it and, it looks like it is true.

 

A friend of mine who is really into TV and interacting with shows on FB told me that, if you post comments on anything posted by the Official Grimm FB page that references Adalind as a rapist, it is hidden by whoever is running the Grimm page.  I didn't believe him until I realized no one posted anything about a rape on anything posted.  So...I posted a few comments.  And, well, I can see them when I'm logged in as myself, but as soon as I switch to comment under another profile (I have a FB page for my book blog), those comments all disappear.  I also had my husband check from his account and he can't see any of the comments I posted that referenced Adalind being a rapist (there were other comments I posted that did not mention that, which are still there).

 

So....

[orza]

The point of facebook and twitter accounts is to promote the show. Hosting contentious discussions does not support that business goal. I don't have any issue with them hiding negative comments.

I also don't have an issue with Adalind and her story line. I enjoy her shenanigans.

Edited November 16, 2015 by orza

[OtterMommy]

The point of facebook and twitter accounts is to promote the show. Hosting contentious discussions does not support that business goal. I don't have any issue with them hiding negative comments.

I also don't have an issue with Adalind and her story line. I enjoy her shenanigans.

 

The thing is, though, that there are negative and contentious comments there (and I was very careful about how I worded my test comments and tried to keep them as civil as possible).  So, as far as I can tell, it is just that one point--Adalind as a rapist--that they won't tolerate.

[orza]

So. I don't see a problem with that. That's fine if they don't want that on their facebook.

[jhlipton]

Grimm isn't the only monster-fighting, fairy-teller, people-aren't-who-they-seem show on the block.

 

In addition, I would add iZombie and Sleepy Hollow as "monster-fighting, fairy-teller, people-aren't-who-they-seem" shows.  Sleepy Hollow is in the middle of an interesting transformation -- turning a season and a half of absolute dreck into quality television again.   Pretty much everyone behind the scenes were fired and they brought in a new show-runner.  He's focusing on the qualities that made it fun in the first place -- the chemistry between the two leads and the sisterly bond between Abby and Jenny.  They introduced a new character, realized she doesn't work and cut her scenes down.  I really hope it survives -- it's in a precarious place right now and it has gotten so much better.

[OtterMommy]

And if they don't want that on their facebook, they should say so. OtterMommy I know you're not a fire-breathing dragon and probably put it in the best way possible. But no way are they going to let that on there, due to the massive throwdown that would occur. It's too much of a trigger/hot topic. But what is interesting is that they don't scold or say those comments aren't allowed, etc., but they keep it quiet and just hide the comments discreetly. That is the weird part. 

 

I understand that they have to do some policing and I'm not against them hiding questionable comments.  It looks like profanity is an automatic hide as well (not surprising and nothing wrong with that).  I guess it just surprises me that you can attack other commenters, make pretty nasty personal attacks on members of the cast, make blatant sexual comments about members of the cast--but if you dare to say Adalind is a rapist, no matter how calmly and coherently you explain your reasoning--you're hidden.

 

Whatever....

[Actionmage]

Between the last two posts, the double-dog dare ya of the seeming Adalind/Nick coupling, and just how far a-field the show has drifted, even from S2? I am thisclose to just chucking it all. The show rarely relaxes me or gets me tense in the fun way entertainment does. It's the only thing I really watch on Fridays, aside from Whose Line Is It Anyway ( when it's on Fridays).  I hate to give up on a shows.

 

Yet the way the show is being written and steered is not what I was promised in S1, nor is it in anyway "organic" to any of the characters, even Nick, even Adalind.  I may do what I am doing for Once Upon a Time- read the posts, because the snark is good here, even if the show's writing isn't.

[ShadowFacts]

Between the last two posts, the double-dog dare ya of the seeming Adalind/Nick coupling, and just how far a-field the show has drifted, even from S2? I am thisclose to just chucking it all. The show rarely relaxes me or gets me tense in the fun way entertainment does. It's the only thing I really watch on Fridays, aside from Whose Line Is It Anyway ( when it's on Fridays).  I hate to give up on a shows.

 

Yet the way the show is being written and steered is not what I was promised in S1, nor is it in anyway "organic" to any of the characters, even Nick, even Adalind.  I may do what I am doing for Once Upon a Time- read the posts, because the snark is good here, even if the show's writing isn't.

 

I still am giving an hour on Friday nights to the Grimm-verse, because I'm still interested in the wesen escapades and want to see where this uprising is going.  If they lay off any Juliette return for a loooong while, and keep Adalind way on the back burner, I'm OK.  I don't think this show has derailed in its writing anywhere near as bad as Once which I did deep-six last year.  But the rape(s) and the soap-y pregnancy and Nick acting like an automaton about it all really grates, that's for sure.  The writers need to do better.

[OtterMommy]

Yet the way the show is being written and steered is not what I was promised in S1, nor is it in anyway "organic" to any of the characters, even Nick, even Adalind.  I may do what I am doing for Once Upon a Time- read the posts, because the snark is good here, even if the show's writing isn't.

 

This is where I'm at right now.  I still haven't watched 503 and I'm not planning on watching 504.  I'll keep recording the show in case it sounds like things are going to turn around, then I can do binge-watch with liberal FF'ing to catch up.  But, at this point, I just don't see the show getting back to that point.

[Starchild]

I understand that they have to do some policing and I'm not against them hiding questionable comments.  It looks like profanity is an automatic hide as well (not surprising and nothing wrong with that).  I guess it just surprises me that you can attack other commenters, make pretty nasty personal attacks on members of the cast, make blatant sexual comments about members of the cast--but if you dare to say Adalind is a rapist, no matter how calmly and coherently you explain your reasoning--you're hidden.

 

Whatever....

If profanity is weeded out by a bot, then my guess is that "rape" and its variations are getting caught in that filter.

[Actionmage]

In tonight's episode, the "twist" was guess-able to anyone who read the blurb for it. The quest was about Emily, yeah, but she was shown supposedly having feelings for one of the guys that was murdered. Either she was totally lying to everyone or she killed someone she was dating. After the first murder, Emily disappeared from the story.

 

It felt that we were supposed to be engaged with "Who is the Scary Wesen Guy killing these Other Wesen Guys?!" At one point I was entertaining a twist that it was Lola or the mom of Isaac. I rejected them because that would mean that the mom killed her own son to protect a scuzz who killed another wesen. It didn't track for me. I dismissed Lola because I'd have dumped the Scuzzy dude's ass and not bothered to kill him. He apparently had a waiting list. So, if we were to be sympathetic to Emily, why didn't she get much of a POV outside of a couple of sentences? If we were to believe that she wanted to step into the business, why was she barely around? She could have been a deferential, but stubbornly pushy and protective daughter. Yes, those are stereotypes too, but it might have made clearer sense.


As it was, Emily mentioned something about wanting her own life, the guys are killed and her dad- not fatally shot- is happy that he has a killer he can turn the business over to soon/someday/whatever. We never knew if that was what she wanted. Emily looked upset about her killing, but Dad was so pleased. Nick was waving off contracts for death and it felt we were supposed to be amused at Boozy McShady needing psychiatric help.

 

 

 

If I missed something, I apologize for the above, but when the story is supposed to be about a woman and she barely figures into it, that seems like you're doin' it wrong.

 

edited: Put in spoilers for those who haven't seen the episode.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Actionmage

[ShadowFacts]

The thing that frosted my windows was that Emily appears to be a serial killing sociopath and Nick and co. are letting her go on her merry way.  Great policing. 

[OtterMommy]

 I saw this post referenced over at SpoilerTV and thought it very well-written and thought out.  I'm not entirely sure *this* is the best thread for it, but I thought I'd start it here...

 

http://joanbushur.tumblr.com/post/133631037046/yes-this-is-a-thing

[Prevailing Wind]

She didn't even mention Hank being raped by Adalind.

[OtterMommy]

She didn't even mention Hank being raped by Adalind.

 

I was surprised by that too....she did a pretty darn good job explaining Nick's situation...and then nothing about Hank.  Oh well.. It was still a thought-provoking post.

[merylinkid]

She also didn't mention where Adalind bit Nick or how she was in a position to do it.   He thrust his tongue in her mouth.    It's still a penetration, even if it wasn't penis in vagina.  It's not like she bit his shoulder or she hit him in the nose and he bled on her.   The writers substituted tongue in mouth and blood for other bodily fluids.

[Snarkette]

Felt this needed to be here so we could vent. I'll start:

• Not digitizing every bit of Wesen lore to a central research database with multiple backup scenarios.
• Not hiring a locally-supported "council" of Wesen to act as research librarians about wesen issues, preserve cultural heritage, stories, etc. 
• Not creating a formal agreement of responsibilities between Nick and Truble and the Wesen community to establish a compact of enforcement and co-existence.
• No exploration of how civil law applies uniformly to Wesen perps on a show about a Grimm policeman dealing with Wesen criminality.

 

On more episodic-specific-topics

• Calling no-child Rosalie instead Multi-parenting Bud and Mrs Bud for parenting advice because she's already on contract to appear in the show and he's just recurring.
• Living in approximately 2000 square feet of dungeon ("No one will ever track the high-cost real estate negotiations here") without proper heating or light but really cool kitchen equipment.
• Not bringing spare clothes when moving to a secret dungeon. Or diapers? Baby clothing? Wipes? Layette in general?
• Letting the low-paid police detective cover the living expenses of high-rent lawyer
• Allowing a serial murdering Wesen to walk away from three killings because the episode was secretly about female empowerment in the face of genderist fairy tale fulfillment?

 

(I have forgiven Show for killing off Kelly though because she is *awesome* on Limitless. In fact, thank god for Limitless because I needed a show to love this season.)

[OtterMommy]

Another stupid thing about the fortress....

 

It was a paint factory, right?  And old paint factory that was abandoned, right?  And Nick thought this was a great place to bring a newborn?

 

Um, has anyone heard of lead poisoning? 

[OtterMommy]

She also didn't mention where Adalind bit Nick or how she was in a position to do it.   He thrust his tongue in her mouth.    It's still a penetration, even if it wasn't penis in vagina.  It's not like she bit his shoulder or she hit him in the nose and he bled on her.   The writers substituted tongue in mouth and blood for other bodily fluids.

 

Actually, she does mention it...and she gives Nick a pass....here's what she said:

 

 

Early in the show Nick tricks Adalind into losing her powers by getting into a fight with her, and when she bites him at one point during the fight she ingests his blood (the blood of a Grimm) and loses her powers becoming a normal human. After many trials, Adalind eventually regains her magical powers, and decides to pay Nick back

 

I'll be honest, while I find the Nick sticking his tongue down Adalind's throat her biting him disturbing and a little unnecessary (he could have cut her, cut himself, and do the blood brothers thing....), I'm not *as* disturbed by it as I am Adalind raping Nick for 1 reason:  There were repercussions for it.  Adalind lost her powers, Adalind did horrible things both to get back at Nick and to get her powers back.  Basically it was recognized by the show.

 

I've said it before; the fact that the rape happened is, while not pleasant, not what really upsets me.  What drives me crazy is that the show refuses to acknowledge what really happened.

Edited November 22, 2015 by OtterMommy

[Prevailing Wind]

Lead has been banned from paint in the US since 1978.  It still exists in Marine paint, because barnacles hate it, but there's no reason this couldn't have been a "household" paint factory.  Baby was probably more endangered by lead paint in Nick's house, considering all the renovation/restoration work that had to be done periodically.  Sanding the old (lead-based) paint off the woodwork would create dangerous dust, particularly for kids under 6.  The EPA says the blood-brain barrier isn't formed yet to protect the brain from lead in the bloodstream. Older kids are more resilient.

 

On another note, Adalind probably doesn't have any clothes or any baby supplies because she packed/gave them to the movers and she thought they'd be at the new place instead of IN STORAGE.  Brilliant move, Nick.

[formerlyfreedom]

The topic title has been modified to expand to include everything you're finding wrong with Grimm these days, since it's not just the writing; it includes all manner of production.

 

Please keep the conversation moving; repetitious and continued discussion over the same dead horses is not productive, and posts may be removed that continue to beat them. Thanks.

[DeeDee79]

I've said it before; the fact that the rape happened is, while not pleasant, not what really upsets me.  What drives me crazy is that the show refuses to acknowledge what really happened.

 

Ottermommy I have to agree that this is the only reason why I'm not completely on board with the Nick/Adalind pairing. She's definitely done some terrible things; in the beginning most were at the behest of Renard. The show is definitely trying to gloss over the fact that Adalind raped Nick because Viktor told her to "depower" the Grimm before she could get Diana back. Despite her reasons for doing it I can't get past the stricken, horrified look on Nick's face after Monrosalee's wedding when he realized what happened and who made it happen. I actually teared up at the look on his face & was furious that Juliette saw it as cheating instead of recognizing what had happened to him. I'm waiting out this redemption story because I'm hoping that there will be a confrontation scene where Nick blasts Adalind for what she did to him. If that happens I can be more accepting because despite myself I actually enjoy "good" Adalind. She makes a better good guy than the bumbling villian that she was.

[Darklazr]

 I saw this post referenced over at SpoilerTV and thought it very well-written and thought out.  I'm not entirely sure *this* is the best thread for it, but I thought I'd start it here...

 

http://joanbushur.tumblr.com/post/133631037046/yes-this-is-a-thing

 

Thanks for posting the article.

 

Way back in the day, General Hospital's Luke Spencer raped a barely legal married Laura Baldwin on the disco floor like a dog in heat, and thus began the unbelievable  nasty craze of the rape victim (Laura) falling for her rapist (Luke), marrying the man and having two children.  Luke and Laura's TV wedding had over 30 million viewers and to this day, the fans of LnL love their couple and all I want is to take a nice long hot shower!

 

What Adalind did to Hank and Nick is considered rape, because they did not consent to having sex with Adalind.

 

Adalind is a two time rapist and the show should have killed the child at birth, BUT they can not fire a pregnant actress (see Hunter Tylo's lawsuit against Aaron Spelling) from several years ago.

 

Even if Kelly turns out to be Adalind/Renard's or Nik/Juliette's the facts are Adalind IS still a rapist and should have be dead by now!

Edited November 22, 2015 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

Even if Kelly turns out to be Adalind/Renard's or Nik/Juliette's the facts are Adalind IS still a rapist and should have be dead by now!

 

I don't think they ever wanted to fire Claire Coffee.  I think they got themselves into a position where they realized that she couldn't just keep looking for Diana forever but, if she were to find Diana, there wasn't really anywhere to go with her character.  Then....Claire Coffee announced she was pregnant.  And, because the creative team only halfway lives up to its title (the "team" part), they decided to start all over with a plot device that didn't work in the first place.

 

Sadly, I think a plot that doesn't involve a rapeling, has Nick (er, the show...) realize the severity of what happened, and then forces Nick and Adalind face off in as more personal enemies would actually have greater legs than the crap now does.

 

By "personal enemies" I mean this...Nick wants vengeance for what Adalind did to him and Juliette (the coma, turning her into a hexenbiest, etc) and even to Hank.  Up until this point, Nick only engaged with Adalind when he had to and Adalind, with the exception of her spiteful act of putting Juliette into a coma, only engaged with Nick when someone else put her up to it.  I'm saying the should have made it personal...Nick's out for revenge and Adalind is, I don't know, let's just say out for revenge over Diana--since she brings that one up whenever she thinks it will get her something.

 

In short, they should have made Adalind the big bad--a tall order, of course, since they never really elevated her skill level beyond bumbling idiot before....

Edited November 22, 2015 by OtterMommy

[merylinkid]

Actually you can fire someone who is pregnant, you just can't fire them for being pregnant.    Besides, by the time she gave birth on the show, she wasn't pregnant in real life anymore.

 

They should never have written the second pregnancy storyline into the show.  They could have had her come back full of revenge against Nick and do all kinds of things.   They could have had her kidnap him until Renard told her where Diana was.   All kinds of things.  Just hide the actress behind a plant or a big bag the whole time.   

 

If they did write it in, they should have done something other than make it Nick's.   Or if it had to be Nick's, then there should have been an all out battle for the child, not "let's play happy family" in our pillow fort.   

 

So many choices and they picked the worst of the lot.

[OtterMommy]

If they did write it in, they should have done something other than make it Nick's.   Or if it had to be Nick's, then there should have been an all out battle for the child, not "let's play happy family" in our pillow fort.   

 

So many choices and they picked the worst of the lot.

 

I'm guessing they thought the only way they could turn Juliette against Nick was to make Adalind pregnant with his baby. That, of course, is complete BS--Juliette was mad at Nick before Kenneth told her Adalind was pregnant.  They actually could have played out Season 4 almost exactly as they did WITHOUT Adalind being pregnant.  It could have gone like this:

- Kenneth finds out Juliette is a hexenbiest and realizes she's more useful to him than Adalind is..

- Adalind, kicked to the curb by Kenneth and aware that Juliette has plans to kill her, goes to Nick and says that she has a way she can help him but he needs to protect her in exchange for it

- Kenneth springs Juliette from jail and tells her that Nick is now working with Adalind....

....and the rest of the season goes pretty much the same way, except there is no pregnancy involved.

 

Then, going into season 5, the creative team isn't tied to a story line.  Let's face it, the only way to get out of this story arc is to kill off Adalind.  My guess is that there is A LOT of scrambling in the offices right now--a good chunk of fans are ANGRY and are not afraid to post about, apparently there are some crazy and mean twitter fights going on, and *ratings are falling every single week.*  But, now they are stuck with a baby, which makes a course correction that much harder.  Add to that the fact that they have two camps of people, one or the other will be pissed no matter which way they go, and things are ugly....

[ShadowFacts]

As much as I hate the rapemance and baby hot mess, I'm even more disenchanted with the way they're handling Nick.  I went from liking him quite a bit to thinking he is pretty stupid and not a good cop.  If cops are supposed to protect and serve, he's not doing a great job with the protect part.  He's done plenty of looking the other way all along, but now it's out of hand.  Last week those messed up and dangerous kids were turned back into the system where they could do plenty more harm.  Now a serial killer is let go.  I don't like Nick very much right now and I guess it will be merciful if this is the last season.  Sadly. 

 

Edit to clarify:  He is being stupid about a lot of things, like not getting a DNA test, and trusting anything Adalind says without verification.  Old Nick wouldn't have done it, a smart cop wouldn't do it.

Edited November 23, 2015 by ShadowFacts

[OtterMommy]

As much as I hate the rapemance and baby hot mess, I'm even more disenchanted with the way they're handling Nick.  I went from liking him quite a bit to thinking he is pretty stupid and not a good cop.  If cops are supposed to protect and serve, he's not doing a great job with the protect part.  He's done plenty of looking the other way all along, but now it's out of hand.  Last week those messed up and dangerous kids were turned back into the system where they could do plenty more harm.  Now a serial killer is let go.  I don't like Nick very much right now and I guess it will be merciful if this is the last season.  Sadly. 

 

 

Oh, but didn't you hear? Nick has "gone dark."  Now, I would think "going dark" would make him less likely to look the other way and let people off the hook. Instead, he would take things into his own hands. Apparently, I was wrong....

[Darklazr]

I'm guessing they thought the only way they could turn Juliette against Nick was to make Adalind pregnant with his baby. That, of course, is complete BS--Juliette was mad at Nick before Kenneth told her Adalind was pregnant.  They actually could have played out Season 4 almost exactly as they did WITHOUT Adalind being pregnant.  It could have gone like this:

- Kenneth finds out Juliette is a hexenbiest and realizes she's more useful to him than Adalind is..

- Adalind, kicked to the curb by Kenneth and aware that Juliette has plans to kill her, goes to Nick and says that she has a way she can help him but he needs to protect her in exchange for it

- Kenneth springs Juliette from jail and tells her that Nick is now working with Adalind....

....and the rest of the season goes pretty much the same way, except there is no pregnancy involved.

 

Then, going into season 5, the creative team isn't tied to a story line.  Let's face it, the only way to get out of this story arc is to kill off Adalind.  My guess is that there is A LOT of scrambling in the offices right now--a good chunk of fans are ANGRY and are not afraid to post about, apparently there are some crazy and mean twitter fights going on, and *ratings are falling every single week.*  But, now they are stuck with a baby, which makes a course correction that much harder.  Add to that the fact that they have two camps of people, one or the other will be pissed no matter which way they go, and things are ugly....

 

Yes, there was no need for another baby on the show and having Nik play house with Adalind.

 

- Nick still could have moved into the old paint shop on his own for better security.

- Trubel could have shown up at Nick's new place and the two hashed out how to deal with the secret government organization that  broke into his house. 

I did not understood why Viktor and Kenneth never went directly AFTER Nick by having him kidnapped and forcing him to contact his mother.  Adalind knew where Nick lived and she showed up at the house to get into a fight with Juliette, BUT at no time did Viktor or Kenneth send their people out to grab Nick.  

Edited November 23, 2015 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

I never understood why Viktor and Kenneth never went directly AFTER Nick by having him kidnapped and forcing him to contact his mother.  Adalind knew where Nick lived and she showed up at the house to get into a fight with Juliette, BUT at no time did Viktor or Kenneth send their people out to grab Nick.  

 

That's actually a good question.  I had never thought about it but, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.  Viktor knew very early in season 4 that Diana was with Kelly and that Nick was involved. The smart thing for him to do would have been to send the Verrat to get Nick and torture (not that I want to see torture....) him until he gave them Kelly's whereabouts (not that Nick knew them....)

 

Another thing...why on earth would Viktor even want Adalind involved in finding Diana? Once they figured out that Kelly had Diana, Adalind was actually of absolutely no use to them.  It made sense, of course, to keep an eye on her--she'd already proven to be a flight risk.  But bringing her to Portland with them was just beyond stupid.  Even though she was a hexenbiest, I can't see how she had any special skills that would help them AND what would have stopped her, if they actually found Diana, from running off with her again?  They should have just left her in Vienna (in the psycho prison).

 

As I write this, I realize how asinine that whole plot really was....

[Actionmage]

Now a serial killer is let go.

 

To be fair to Emily, the wesen "maiden", she wasn't shown to kill before this circumstance and didn't seem inclined to do so at a later time. Granted, that's on the writing, but that's how Ms. Zima seemed to play Emily's reactions. She was willing to protect her father ( from the cops and the man who supposedly killed her brother) and the person that was targeted by a ritual that she didn't want to be part of and didn't want "innocents"/mundanes killed.  The three feather-bearers, or at least the first two, seemed willing to kill for a woman who didn't seem that excited at the idea of marrying them. We can't know about the third because he was prevented from carrying out the attack/ making the hard call.

 

Emily also didn't seem to be all "Yipee! I get to be a Mafia Queen!" in the last scenes with her and her dad.

 

I like the Nick/Hank and Nick/Hank/Wu dynamic, but I am disappointed that Pogue was cycled out so fast. It was fun to see how the "mundane" cops, Hank and Wu, had to process crimes with someone who doesn't understand. I liked the actor, so hopefully he will figure into another case or two. I am hoping he does not have anything to do with the big wesen plot. Sometimes a clueless, human cop is just a clueless, human cop. (Clueless= not in on wesen.)

 

I never understood why Viktor and Kenneth never went directly AFTER Nick by having him kidnapped

 

Especially after Erik was thisclose to doing so! Erik went fancy and splashy. The result ended up with him dead. Viktor and Ken were shown to be more patient and less convoluted. ( "How about not using half of the city in a West Coast Walking Dead ensemble?")