Killian Jones/Captain Hook: One Handed Pirate With A Drinking Problem

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah except him living with her is part of her happiness. So he unilaterally decided that Emma could be just fine and dandy and happy without him, without really listening to her. And she did the same when she decided unilaterally that she was going to fight for him in the way he didn't want.

It's like a really dark and twisted "Gifts of the Magi" situation. He's willing to die rather than let her go darker to save him and rather than risk that he could go dark and hurt her and the people she loves. She's willing to go darker and risk hurt to herself and others in order to save him.

 

I don't remember, did she say anything about believing that he could fight the darkness before he passed out? That might have helped matters, if she'd told him then that she believed in him because he'd done it before.

 

I also think that when he's thinking clearly, while he still may feel a little unworthy of her, he also feels blessed to have been accepted by her. Her acceptance gives him hope, and that has a lot to do with giving him the strength to keep fighting to be good. He's not doing it for her, but she inspires him. He wants to be worthy of her. But when the darkness blots out all that's good, all that's left is the fear and self-loathing, without the hope. What I'm afraid of is that he'll be starting from square one when/if he comes through this. He'll feel even more unworthy and have even more self-loathing and guilt. He'll think she's better off away from him.

 

Fortunately, depending on what the town barrier is from week to week, it's not like he can get too far away without something bad happening.

[Curio]

I don't remember, did she say anything about believing that he could fight the darkness before he passed out? That might have helped matters, if she'd told him then that she believed in him because he'd done it before.

 

Emma: You're going to be okay.

Hook: No, please. You have to let me go. I don't want to pay this price. I don't... I don't want to become that.

Emma: You won't. You can fight the darkness. I can help you. We can do it together.

Hook: I'm not as strong as you are... or Merlin. I'm weak. The things I've done... I've succumbed to darkness before in my life and it took centuries to push it away. I don't know if I can do it again.

 

Emma does appear to believe in him when she says she'll help him fight off the darkness and they can do it together, but that's also part of the reason why he was so upset when she hid Excalibur from him. So yes, in that moment, she was giving him hope and belief in her plan, but based on Emma's actions in "Broken Heart," she believed that "helping" Hook included lying and keeping him in the dark about Excalibur, so her motivational speech to him is a bit more on the optimistic-but-desperate side rather than being total belief in him.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Curio

[LizaD]

 

I guess, but it's funny how this can be said about a guy who traveled realms to the place where his brother...

 

Exactly! All those things you listed is why I said Hook up until now was always the fighter and his character took a beating when he didn't even for a second put a fight. He didn't even think about it. So yeah he's been fighting all this time and then perhaps in the biggest fight in his life ever, he folded like a house of cards. 

 

 

I've always assumed he felt like the inferior one in his relationship with Emma, but we're finally getting some canon evidence that he thinks this is true. I think Hook has put Emma up on this pedestal where she can do no wrong and he's this lowly pirate who doesn't deserve her

 

I think this is largely fandom projected or manufactured. There's been ZERO onscreen evidence that any point in time he thought that he was inferior. When she left him at the beanstalk and said she couldn't trust him, he didn't think it was because he was a pirate even though Emma clearly said so. He blamed it on Emma's trust issues, which was true. When Emma was going around being grumpy cat "I Luv NYC" he didn't think it was because she didn't want him. He knew that it was because of her abandonment issues. Again. Which he also called her out on. Again. He stepped aside for Neal because he was that confident that he would end up winning. When Emma was listing the shitty qualities of non-DS, Hook said that he liked those things,meaning he accepted them as flaws but he liked them anyway. He wasn't all, "oh no you're perfect." Pan called him all sorts of names to get him to feel inferior and Charming did so too, to a lesser degree. But he turned around and told Emma the truth about Neal anyway. He also bluntly told her he liked her, multiple times. He also bluntly rejected DS, multiple times. How does that compute to an inferiority complex? 

 

He's also never put Emma on a pedestal. I thought part of their whole couple identity was Hook being able to call Emma out? He can't do that and put her on a pedestal, because then there would be nothing to call out. It's contradictory. Inferiority complex also contradicts the whole "kindred spirits" thing they've been repeating ad nauseam since day 1. 

 

I honestly think people confuse his lack of faith in their relationship and in Emma as him thinking himself inferior. He always think Emma's insecurities are inevitably going to rear its ugly head and he's not entirely wrong about that. Because I haven't seen one single instance where he thought that it was something about him that stood in the way of their relationship. It was always about Emma's walls ruining their thing. Hook's always been confident in himself and I think it's a disservice to his character to see him as that weak. 

 

His self-loathing has nothing to do with feeling inferior to Emma. It's about his own feelings about his villainous actions and a dose of daddy abandonment. It has nothing to do with Emma at all, nor does it feature largely in their interactions. He's judging himself on a universal moral scale, not on a relative "am I worthy of Emma" scale. That's why I said the last 2 episodes are OOC for Hook and not in a good way. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by LizaD

[Faemonic]

I wonder if it has something to do with becoming a hero? The show sort of waffles on the definition, but it's as though to be Good you've also got to have a taste for Humble Pie. Exhibit A: Snow White going to Mayor Mills and pleading, "Kill me."

 

Hook's a complicated character, but if he's been acting out of it in 510 then that's probably-definitely because the Dark Forces Meat Grinder did a number on him. In 508... Look, Show, what is the darkness even? It's corrupted grail magic, sure, but Hook knows it intuitively inside and out, so when they go "Cake or Death" with The Darkness as the cake and he goes "Death, please!!!" Then I just take his word for it.

I think this is largely fandom projected or manufactured. There's been ZERO onscreen evidence that any point in time he thought that he was inferior.

I liked the scene where he was playing giant bait, all, "You want to kill a human? Well, I'm the worst human around!" And Pan's Curse: "Shall we start preparing our souls? Mine's going to take some time!" It's kind of already a contradiction for any real person to feel that they're so bad and shout it loudly and proudly (without seeming to misunderstand the definition), but that's Hook for you. I guess it's difficult for some people to reconcile how he can be so cheeky/flirtatious and self-aware of being such a terrible person. Is it that he can compartmentalize? "This is who I am (bad), but this is what I do (confident) to get done what I want done because I'm eeevil." Is it that he sees it as justifiable if everyone's been a butt at some point in their life? Is it that he sees it as justifiable because love is a human experience?

 

How can he judge himself so harshly on a universal scale, but approach the Crown Princess Savior bit of that same universe and go, "Yup!" without hesitation? His confidence is sexy. I miss it, too. But I can buy that everyone's got limits and becoming The Dark One is his. Like, if Emma was going to save his life in any other way that was worthy of balking at, like...I don't know, splitting her heart in two and putting half in his chest...he would have maybe gone, "Swan, don't do this! Oh, you done it? Okay, so how do we get over it..." Instead of, "Don't do the thing bby don't do it don't--I'M BREAKING UP WITH YOU."

 

*

 

On a tangent, I also thought it was odd the way he explained the origins of his bling. He was all, "Whatever it is you've done, I have already forgiven you because you've already forgiven me for Edgar and Barnaby." Like...she didn't even know about Edgar and Barnaby? So that was a tad presumptive.

 

I re-imagine the scene sort of like...

 

Hook: I've already forgiven you, Emma Swan, no matter what you've d—

Emma: I turned you into the Dark One.

Hook: What.

Emma: What do you mean, 'what.' You just told me that you shot Edgar in front of his wife, and I didn't say a word!

Hook: Barnaby! Barnaby with the wife! What you said is impossible, by the way. I don't appreciate your making a mockery of my heartfelt confessions. (Dons earphones and fiddles with attached mp3 player. Song plays. "As Long As You Love Me" by The Backstreet Boys.) This sounds like Freddie Mercury singing. It wasn't like that before.

 

How much does Hook need to remember about becoming or being the Dark One before he's functionally an unforgiving Dark One?

Edited December 3, 2015 by Faemonic

[LizaD]

 

How can he judge himself so harshly on a universal scale, but approach the Crown Princess Savior bit of that same universe and go, "Yup!" without hesitation?

 

Because he doesn't see Emma as Crown Princess Savior and I don't think he ever has. He sees Emma, the little lost girl, orphan, thief, chick with abandonment issues, loner,  exactly like him, etc. Remember when he told her he came to "save her" when he went to go fetch her from NYC?  Everyone else wanted Emma the (incompetent) Savior to save their asses. That also reminds me, he also tried a TLK on her. I don't think he would've done that if he didn't believe there was a chance that was true. And if he believed that, then no I can't reconcile possibly True Love with Boohoo I'm so inferior to my true love. Like what?

 

 

I guess it's difficult for some people to reconcile how he can be so cheeky/flirtatious and self-aware of being such a terrible person. Is it that he can compartmentalize?

 

It's not that hard to reconcile for me. You can be a terrrible person and know it, and still be right for someone out there. Emma doesn't need an upright model citizen Male Savior does she? She's not exactly a model citizen herself, even before the DS stuff. Emma needs someone who will get through her walls and won't abandon her and Hook thought he was that person. I think that was basically end of story for him. He's not her dad, he doesn't need to want the "best things in life" for her, just their mutual happiness. Although he kind of turned into that on his pseudo death bed.

 

The whole thing with the inferiority to Emma thing is that it then ties his redemption directly to and because of Emma and yet this thread is filled with posts adamantly proclaiming that his desire for redemption had nothing to do with winning Emma. So which is it? Because those are the 2 things that aren't compatible.

[Curio]

I think this is largely fandom projected or manufactured. There's been ZERO onscreen evidence that any point in time he thought that he was inferior.

 

It depends on what you consider on screen. I take things such as Dark Rumple taunting Hook by saying, "So she can control you. Not that she needs Excalibur. She's quite good at doing that all on her own," as on screen evidence. The fact that it's a demon in Hook's head telling him this makes me believe that Rumple is using Hook's deepest thoughts against him, so it's technically Hook's darkest fears being taunted inside his head. That scene makes me think that at some point, Hook has probably thought about how Emma can control him very easily, even without Excalibur. At some point, Hook has also thought about how he was a puppy dog following Emma around. "No, Killian Jones told you that. Your lovesick puppy dog." Yes, it's possible that the Dark One was putting false thoughts into Hook's head, but it seems more likely that these were the kind of harsh truths that he thought about late at night but never discussed with anyone, but suddenly they're coming to the surface because the Dark One has no filters. Another late night thought that might have popped up in Offscreenville: "Why did Emma go to have shots with Regina when I literally almost just died in front of her after being controlled by my biggest enemy?"

 

I liked the scene where he was playing giant bait, all, "You want to kill a human? Well, I'm the worst human around!" And Pan's Curse: "Shall we start preparing our souls? Mine's going to take some time!"

I'd consider this on screen evidence as well.

 

Because I haven't seen one single instance where he thought that it was something about him that stood in the way of their relationship. It was always about Emma's walls ruining their thing.

 

I think it can be a little of both. Emma's walls have always been an issue, but a lot of Season 4 was also about Hook's own walls and viewing himself as a villain and how that might stand in the way of his relationship with Emma. "I'm hardly a hero. The fairies were only in the hat because I put them there." "That's quite a lot of faith you're putting on me, Swan." "Maybe she was right. Maybe villains can't get their happy endings." "With all this talk of authors and the book, we've never discussed one fact... I was a villain." And then there was the whole discussion about the "Wooden Man Child" where Hook sounded a bit jealous. "Should things go well and she wants me to hold her, I want to use both hands." The writers never touched on the stupid hand plot again, but clearly, Hook felt some kind of insecurity about it if he wanted to restore it for their first date. Obviously, Hook and Emma were able to work through these thoughts, but they're still things Hook was concerned about that he thought might ruin their relationship.

 

A big thing for me is just the way Colin portrays Hook in these scenes. He allows himself to be vulnerable and self-deprecating, so I tend to interpret his performance as feeling slightly inferior sometimes. It might also be part of the reason why Hook has such a strong bravado because he might feel like he needs to bury those feelings of insecurity way down into his subconscious right next to the boxes labeled "dead brother" and "daddy issues." If you compare Hook's vulnerable moments with other scenes like the one where he's giving Emma the pep talk about how she defeated the Wicked Witch even though Emma didn't really have much to do with it, that's where my pedestal comment comes from. You're right, he doesn't always put Emma on a pedestal because he's able to call her out when she's putting up her walls or calls bullshit on her NYC plans, but there have been moments where you think to yourself, "Hmm, so Hook keeps calling himself a villain but calls Emma a hero. How does he feel about that?" 

 

It's kind of already a contradiction for any real person to feel that they're so bad and shout it loudly and proudly (without seeming to misunderstand the definition), but that's Hook for you. I guess it's difficult for some people to reconcile how he can be so cheeky/flirtatious and self-aware of being such a terrible person. Is it that he can compartmentalize?

 

This is a good point, and it makes you realize that a lot of Hook's traits tend to want to contradict each other. Maybe it's because he grew up being a straight-laced Lieutenant and morphed into the opposite of that by becoming a pirate? Because he's book smart, but also street smart. But he can also be incredibly dumb (Thanks, writers.) He can flirt up a storm and say ridiculous innuendo, but then go and rattle off schmoopy romantic poetry to his True Love. He can be self-loathing, but then look at himself in the mirror and say he's "devilishly handsome." He can call himself a villain or pirate, but then feels confident enough to woo The Savior. He can be the bravest person in the room and save everyone from imminent death, but then plead to die because he doesn't want to be the Dark One. Yay, complexity!

[LizaD]

Why does everything have to be about Emma?

 

 

Should things go well and she wants me to hold her, I want to use both hands.

Yeah that says he wants to hold her with both hands. Not Emma wants. All he says of Emma's wants is for him to hold her maybe but no mention of any limbs. The 2nd part is his wants. That's what he wants to do for himself, and for his benefit, is to hug the woman with 2 hands. Nowhere in there does it say, "Emma deserves a first date with a man with 2 hands." Or "Emma wants a man to be able to feel her up with 2 hands." That's quite a leap to be made.

 

 

"I'm hardly a hero. The fairies were only in the hat because I put them there." "That's quite a lot of faith you're putting on me, Swan." "Maybe she was right. Maybe villains can't get their happy endings." 

 

So he doesn't buy that he's a hero but nowhere does he say, "you shouldn't be with me Emma cause I'm not a hero and you deserve a hero." His whole stupid line about villains not getting their happy endings to reinforce Woegina's stupid ass plot, was also about him. He's a villain so he can't get HIS happy ending. That's nowhere near the same ballpark as "I can't get my happy ending because I'm a villain and Emma deserves better than a villain." He never even mentioned Emma's happy ending or considered hers at all.

 

 

so Hook keeps calling himself a villain but calls Emma a hero

He thinks villainy is his identity while hero Emma is a job title, not her identity. Because it would be the height of ridiculousness for Hook, a low dirty evil pirate to think he can SAVE the Crown Princess Savior right? Yet somehow underneath all that crippling insecurity and inferiority he had the audacity to declare that he could. Must've been some strong crack he was smoking.

 

Complexity? Just shoddy writing because he's a plot point to prop Emma's story apparently.

 

Ok fine. Everything's about Emma. Hook redeemed himself to be worthy of Emma because he felt inferior. He turned dark at the drop of a hat cause he thought Emma didn't have faith in him to be good. Because the only reason he's managed to stay good so far was because of Emma. He was nothing but a puppy dog begging for scraps from Emma. Man what a weak and whiny character. Isn't this what the Hook haters have been saying all along? Ok I can see it now.

Edited December 3, 2015 by LizaD

[Faemonic]

Why does everything have to be about Emma?

I know, right? Where's my Hooked Queen ship?!

 

(I'm kidding, everyone. Don't kill me. I starboard Hook with everyone.)

 

Fans are going to project what they've got on the inner life of a character...who's a character, so doesn't have inner life. Maybe the inconsistency is that the writer's are doing it too? When the story needs him to be the ruthless conceited pirate captain who makes a lot of drinking buddies in short order and keeps their loyalty through the weirdest plans, there it is. When the story needs him to be a self-flagellating loner, there it is. When the story needs him to be a good boyfriend and empathic listener, there it is.

 

The majority of fans might lean more towards that he's doing it all for Emma. Since I considered the Baelfire-Stiltskin-Hook dynamic far more interesting and worthy of exploration (probably because blah blah Freudian blah family), of course that gets annoying. I'm sure the same goes for any of his traits: confidence or self-loathing, live-in-the-moment versus sentimentality, selfish versus sacrificially generous, valiant in battle versus Captain Floor. The majority of any people leaning more towards anything can get annoying, I'm sure, even to people in the in-crowd. Your headcanon is valid.

 

 

 

The whole thing with the inferiority to Emma thing is that it then ties his redemption directly to and because of Emma

I tied his redemption to Nealfire. But it would be odd to think of it as because Hook was (or felt) inferior to Nealfire. One doesn't automatically go with the other.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Faemonic

[Curio]

He thinks villainy is his identity while hero Emma is a job title, not her identity. Because it would be the height of ridiculousness for Hook, a low dirty evil pirate to think he can SAVE the Crown Princess Savior right? Yet somehow underneath all that crippling insecurity and inferiority he had the audacity to declare that he could.

 

Ok fine. Everything's about Emma. Hook redeemed himself to be worthy of Emma because he felt inferior. He turned dark at the drop of a hat cause he thought Emma didn't have faith in him to be good. Because the only reason he's managed to stay good so far was because of Emma. He was nothing but a puppy dog begging for scraps from Emma. Man what a weak and whiny character.

 

This wasn't the point I was trying to make, so I apologize if I miscommunicated. All I was trying to say is that it's okay for Hook to have insecurities and be self-loathing, and that having those qualities doesn't make him weak or whiny, it makes him interesting. He's allowed to question his status as a pirate, but he also doesn't sit around all day and think about how he can't score with the Princess Savior because he doesn't view Emma like that, she's just Emma to him. (And yes, a lot of discussion is going to circle back to Emma because she's kind of the only person he's allowed to interact with at this point. If we were talking Season 2 Hook, other people like Bae, Rumple, and Cora would be more included in the discussion.) Maybe being called a villain upsets Hook, maybe it doesn't. Maybe I interpret some acting as self-deprecating, maybe others don't, but that's all personal interpretation so it's cool if there are different opinions.

[LizaD]

I never said he didn't have flaws or insecurities or that he wasn't self-loathing. All I said was those qualities of his aren't tied to Emma and feeling unworthy of her. They're separate and distinct from her because it's about his own self-worth. All my posts' point was exactly that and it's there in black and white. Woobifying him that he feels so unworthy of Emma and that's driving his actions makes him weak and whiny. We'll just have to agree to disagree about this whole Emma inferior thing.

Here's another reason why it's been Hook ruining and bad writing since the dumb twist occurred. People want to justify Hook's choice to die and leave Emma because he's scared of "becoming the thing he hates most." That is absolutely his right. His life, his choice. He also said it was because he wanted Emma to be happy.

Those happen to be the exact same reasons Neal had for dumping Emma. He was running scared of having to face his father and getting sucked back into the DO drama, the thing he hates the most. He also said it was because he wanted Emma to be happy without him by letting her go find her home. Letting her go to prison? He wanted her to hate him enough so that she would let him go. Sounds familiar no?

The only difference in the situation is that Emma didn't get a chance to thwart Neal while she did with Hook. Hook also got to tell Emma to her face to let him go cause he's scared while Neal just snuck off, so he comes out slightly ahead. Yet the motivations are exactly the same and the main reason, the Dark One, is also the same.

That is what happened when they took away Hook's fighter persona. Hell they even matched up with the promise of a new home thing right before it went to hell. Neal promised her Tallahassee and Hook, the house. Emma took a risk to go fetch the watches and it blew up in her face and landed in prison. Emma risked basically everything for Hook and it blew up in her face and ended up as DS. Emma went to go wallow in Tallahassee anyway just like she's wallowing in that house.

Does this make Merlin, August? I mean they both spent time as trees right?

Edited December 3, 2015 by LizaD

[YaddaYadda]

The fact that it's a demon in Hook's head telling him this makes me believe that Rumple is using Hook's deepest thoughts against him, so it's technically Hook's darkest fears being taunted inside his head. That scene makes me think that at some point, Hook has probably thought about how Emma can control him very easily, even without Excalibur. At some point, Hook has also thought about how he was a puppy dog following Emma around. "No, Killian Jones told you that. Your lovesick puppy dog."

 

This is something that's been brought up a couple of times in both season 3, and season 4. Blackbeard taunted Hook about having gone soft over a woman. In 4x04, Rumple threw in Hook's face that he was a love sick puppy chasing after the object of his affections, and in 4x08, he implied that he lost his fire over Emma, while he had him chained to the fence.

 

I could see it being something that's on Hook's mind that's exacerbated by the darkness. Where this show excels at sucking is that they've given nothing to Hook outside of Emma. And I've always wondered what would happen if things didn't work out between them. Would he figure out a way to leave Storybrooke, or would he stick around because it's home now?

[Faemonic]

A lot of people compared Hook to Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but with Darth Jones I'm seeing a lot of this Angelus/Angel split with a bit of off-his-rocker-for-no-reason Balthazar from Charmed back when Charmed was trying to be Buffy anyway.

Here's another reason why it's been Hook ruining and bad writing since the dumb twist occurred. People want to justify Hook's choice to die and leave Emma because he's scared of "becoming the thing he hates most." That is absolutely his right. His life, his choice. He also said it was because he wanted Emma to be happy.

Those happen to be the exact same reasons Neal had for dumping Emma. He was running scared of having to face his father and getting sucked back into the DO drama, the thing he hates the most. He also said it was because he wanted Emma to be happy without him by letting her go find her home. Letting her go to prison? He wanted her to hate him enough so that she would let him go. Sounds familiar no?

The only difference in the situation is that Emma didn't get a chance to thwart Neal while she did with Hook. Hook also got to tell Emma to her face to let him go cause he's scared while Neal just snuck off, so he comes out slightly ahead. Yet the motivations are exactly the same and the main reason, the Dark One, is also the same.

That is what happened when they took away Hook's fighter persona.

How would it have gone with Hook's fighter persona? (Although I think Hook also comes out slightly ahead on that he's entertainingly erratic now, and very confrontational.)

I've always wondered what would happen if things didn't work out between them. Would he figure out a way to leave Storybrooke, or would he stick around because it's home now?

When Hook and Emma first began to look like they would be a thing, I thought it wouldn't work out because Emma was looking to settle down with her family, and I still considered Hook a swashbuckling adventurer. Historical pirates seemed to hang their hopes on a good raid allowing them to retire as landed gentry, but even after three centuries I doubt Hook would settle. (And then Operation Light Swan, house in suburbia.)

 

If it didn't work out between them, taking the Jolly Roger around the Land Without Magic might be an adventure he'd enjoy. He's probably already seen all of the Enchanted Forest high seas, unless that's where his buried treasure chests are. Less likely would be criminal consultant like Catch Me If You Can, and least likely (I hope, by now) would be reverting to an actual life of crime in either realm. He'd be a formidable admiral for any king, but I remember Hook with Merlin's heart and wide-eyed cheerily bouncing, "And now no one will ever control me again!" And I suspect he might have had issues about that since Liam. So...maybe no more working for the government. Can't imagine him as mostly doing talking or pencil-pushing, but as Hook can age now maybe he could start thinking about that.

 

But I suspect his retirement plan really always was: "Die young/pretty and angry, at high volume, with armed opponents involved."

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm actually cool with all this DO Hook stuff. My only complaint is that it's so rushed. I think his behavior is pretty in-character, but that's just me.

I've always wanted him to help Grumpy fix up his sailboat and teach him to sail so Grumpy's original dream of travelling (with or without Nova), or whatever it was could be wrapped up. Or maybe he could help Whale with his brother problem (his brother is out there somewhere, isn't he?).

I always figured he'd do something involving the docks, too.

[YaddaYadda]

When Hook and Emma first began to look like they would be a thing, I thought it wouldn't work out because Emma was looking to settle down with her family, and I still considered Hook a swashbuckling adventurer. Historical pirates seemed to hang their hopes on a good raid allowing them to retire as landed gentry, but even after three centuries I doubt Hook would settle. (And then Operation Light Swan, house in suburbia.)

It's funny how different people see things differently, you know.

 

I thought that Hook made due with what he was dealt, or dealt himself, and since he was immersed so deep in his vengeance, trapped himself in Neverland for however long, he never really gave any thought to what he wanted after he got his vengeance.

 

And that was clear when he realized killing Rumple had done nothing for him, that this was the end, not a beginning, and that his life was devoid of important things, like family for instance.

 

This is one of the reasons I never really subscribed to the whole he made such a huge sacrifice when he gave up the Jolly Roger (like yeah, he gave up what he knew for something he was unsure of, but still). I thought the gesture spoke to the future he wanted. 

 

He talked about white picket fences, and going home. 

 

I'm fully expecting a line from Emma about bringing Hook home.

 

Other than this, yeah, I guess I could see him going down to the Caribbeans, stumbling upon the filming of the latest PotC movie, and rolling his eyes before casting off again.

[Rumsy4]

I don't know if it's fair to equate what Neal did to Hook's fear of being a DO. Neal was a coward for not telling Emma he was leaving her and for letting her take the fall for his crimes. It's thinking everything between them had been a lie and a con that made Emma withdraw into herself and close herself off from love. She was able to let go of the pain when she realized Neal's abandonment had nothing to do with her as a person.

Hook can be accused of not having enough faith in conquering the Darkness in him together, but Hook did not abandon her willfully or betray her (once they were in a relationship). Emma also has a support system in her family now. But no matter what, Emma would have been devastated by his loss, and he should have understood that better.

I think Hook's insecurities and self-loathing come from a place of knowing how far he had fallen. He gives Emma nudges and little pushes, but lets her set the pace of their relationship. But he has never been fully secure in their relationship, and has been afaird that he might chase her away in some way. I think that's made him hold back a lot. He's been a lot more confident ever since Emma told him she loves him.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ and you have the actively DYING vs. not-dying thing with the Hook vs Neal abandonment comparison.

[YaddaYadda]

But he has never been fully secure in their relationship, and has been afaird that he might chase her away in some way. I think that's made him hold back a lot. He's been a lot more confident ever since Emma told him she loves him.

 

And even then, she admitted that the first time she told him that, it was because she didn't think she'd ever see him again. That's kind of a slap across the face, and a bit heartbreaking, and he didn't really have a favorable reaction to that confession. 

 

I know people are saying that he lied when he said that he's always the one who says "I love you" first, but that's sort of true. The show has found creative ways of having him say the words without ever really saying them, because things were always going to go at snail pace in Emma's case. And it took him dying to admit to herself that she in fact loves him, and even that wasn't enough for her to tell him point blank when she was face to face with him.

 

She told him hours before her reasoning for finally saying those words to him, and that's sort of a strike against her imo, so I'm not sure he even counts that declaration, and I think the one that mattered to him the most was the one that came after they had that yelling contest. 

 

I'm on the side that thinks he's running a long con, and I think that moment defined his objectives.

 

But Emma hasn't made any of this easy. Their relationship looks like an easy going one, but it so far from being that.

 

I also don't think he's a coward for wanting to die, or that he was abandoning her. He called the darkness a sickness, and no one knows better than him what happens to a person when you fail at fighting it. Hook has a really long road ahead of him. He has issues related to what happened in his life, and led him down a self-destructive path, and these things need to be dealt with head on.

 

But I know it's this show, so that's likely not going to happen anytime soon, if ever.

 

I am still waiting for Emma and her parents to deal with their collective crap, and I've basically given up.

Edited December 3, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Faemonic]

He gives Emma nudges and little pushes, but lets her set the pace of their relationship. But he has never been fully secure in their relationship, and has been afaird that he might chase her away in some way.

As long as his good hand isn't chained or cuffed so he can't follow, he's good. Look how far they've come, she only chains his ankles now, and that's so that he can't get away!

^ and you have the actively DYING vs. not-dying thing with the Hook vs Neal abandonment comparison.

Death is the only adventure. (Seriously, though, was Cora right that he has a death wish...or is that his swashbuckling thrill issues? Hee! Actively dying, yeah. Hook does not "go gentle into that good night", except maybe when everyone around him is like, "It's a magic thing. We're magic experts, saying you're doomed.")

And even then, she admitted that the first time she told him that, it was because she didn't think she'd ever see him again. That's kind of a slap across the face, and a bit heartbreaking, and he didn't really have a favorable reaction to that confession.

Probably should go to the relationship thread, but...short. He's quite perceptive, and 4A was all about her telling him about her big frosty emotional walls. Remember when he gave Emma Liam's ring? He was all, "Relax, I'm not proposing..." Of course, two episodes later, he'd already picked her the place of her own that she kept saying she needed to get at their date...but I meant to say that he can take it in stride, even though I guess looking for a house might have been more in Henry's stride.

 

I know people are saying that he lied when he said that he's always the one who says "I love you" first, but

Going to stop you there. Remember: Offscreenville!

Edited December 3, 2015 by Faemonic

[Shanna Marie]

I've had various thinky thoughts about the past bit of discussion, so here goes, not quoting because it's not really any one particular post or statement.

 

I think Hook thinks Emma is awesome. He's been on Team Emma since day one. He's inspired by her. I don't think he changed for her, but the existence of someone like her gave him a reason to change. When someone as awesome as she was held him in such contempt, he had to take a good look at himself and see that actually he agreed with her, he was awful, and he had to change. But I don't think he puts her on a pedestal. He may amplify her heroics, but he also recognizes and is willing to call out her faults. She's never been a perfect princess to him. She's just Emma, who's a big damn hero. He seems to believe that he's good for her. He's seen how his loyal support can help her lower her walls. He knows he'll be there for her, and he knows she needs that. They're better individuals when they're together than they were apart. But at the same time, I do believe that he thinks Emma is better than he is -- and he's not wrong. She's had just as rough a life as he had, and she never went dark. She's always operated out of a place of love. She's self-sacrificing rather than selfish. That's what he's trying to be now (well, pre-Darkness), but he spent centuries being a terrible person, so he's way below her on the goodness scale. She's not too good for the person he's trying to be, but she was too good for the person he used to be.

 

We keep using the term "self-loathing," and maybe that's not the most accurate way of phrasing it. More accurately, it's realistic self-awareness. He was a terrible person. He knows that and he feels really bad about it now. To use the alcohol metaphor that keeps coming up (and since Colin himself, probably the foremost expert on what makes Hook tick, used it, I think it's valid), Hook is acting like a recovering alcoholic in being a recovering villain. Unlike some people we could mention, he doesn't try to pretend that he was a totally different person then and can't be held accountable for or even reminded of his past actions. He may be making better choices now, but he's still the same person who made terrible choices before. He still has all the same potential for evil that he had before. He's just learned new ways of getting through life. He's developed coping mechanisms for dealing with his inner darkness, he's realized what his danger triggers are and works to avoid them, he knows where he went wrong in the past and tries to make different choices now. I don't think he gives himself enough credit for his potential for good -- if the Ursula incident is any indication, his initial instinct was to empathize with her and help her, but his thirst for revenge overrode that. He seems utterly terrified that he'll revert to his old ways, and that's why Rumple was able to troll him with the hand. With all that in mind, I don't think he was necessarily being cowardly for preferring to die than to be made dark. Would you consider a recovering alcoholic who'd worked hard for his sobriety a coward for not wanting to take a drink because he knew his potential for relapse and feared what that would do to him? I don't think Emma realizes the depth of his fear here, since he's a wee bit of a hypocrite on the walls issue because he's just as bad as Emma, just better at hiding his walls. He wears his heart on his sleeve and is very open in showing his love, but he doesn't let anyone else in. He's touched on his fear that being a villain means he can't find a happy ending with her, but he hasn't really let her see all his inner wounds the way he's made her open up to him about hers. Like, he never mentioned the real reason he got rid of his hand after getting it back, so she doesn't know the extent of his terror about going back to evil. All she's seen is him being successful at changing.

 

Where I see the self loathing and not feeling good enough for Emma coming in is possibly going forward from here. He was okay pre-Darkness. But from what we've seen of Hook in the past, if he comes out of this and back to himself with the Darkness removed, he's going to take personal responsibility for everything he said and did while the Dark One, whether or not he has the out of "Darkness" making him do it. He may be blaming Emma now, but once he's back to himself, he'll be more prone to blame and hate himself for being so weak that he caved so easily, and he's going to be mortified at what he said and did to Emma and her loved ones. And he may consider that his weakness here proves that he's unworthy. But this remains to be seen.

[Curio]

Thanks, Shanna Marie, for always eloquently posting what I think in my head, but am too clumsy to post in words.

[Faemonic]

It's interesting that you bring up triggers, because I've been thinking lately if that's what The Darkness actually is, in that forging-vault. Addiction is a much-misunderstood thing because it's such an internal battle, so a lot of people who have always been moderate drinkers might be puzzled at "one drink is too much" because it looks from the outside like sheesh you can control yourself! Same probably goes with eating disorders, obsessive-compulsion, depression, self-injury, emotional disorders, etc.

 

I've also heard that some people who recovered through AA can still drink, and in moderation too, so maybe it's more the psychological or lifestyle structures that changed than the substance itself that's to blame, necessarily, even though the substance exacerbated the effect. Which circles round back to nature of darkness, and Hook's alcohol problem. I mean, his Prolonged Grief Disorder if that's what it is (the rum thing can wait.) The sheer hatred that Hook has harbored for Rumpel might have always been there, but I'm guessing now the Darkness made it so that his affection for Emma becomes peripheral...and even his intellect, that tells him revenge is an end that leaves him lonely and unfulfilled, isn't even a blip in his consciousness anymore because he's off his rocker bananas.

[Dianthus]

I just read an interesting article about phantom limb pain, a common condition among amputees (some 50 percent to 80 percent of all amputees, per the article). I very much doubt the writers have given it much, if any, thought, but the initial pain Hook felt was just the start of his suffering. It's no wonder he turned to rum as a means of self-medicating. Happily for real life amputees, the article was about mirror therapy as a way to provide relief.

[YaddaYadda]

One of the things that I sort of found "disturbing" for lack of better words was when Emma and Hook showed up in all their one darknessness glory, holding hands, and no one asked him if he was okay too.

 

This guy just nearly died for your daughter, he's the reason Snow is standing there because who knows how long Merlin was going to be able to hold off Arthur. And no one really cares.

 

But then, they don't really care all that much about Emma, so I can't really expect them to care about her boyfriend.

 

And it's just a weird as hell dynamic. And there's nothing to justify their lack of empathy because they still had their memories.

[mjgchick]

I think its the writing. These writers just don't know how to write relationships well. I remember a scene from S1 where Emma sees MM crying so she lays on the bed with her. The show doesn't really do stuff like that all that much except for the times when Hook and Emma are comforting each other like when they were drinking by the sea or when she was trying to cheer him up at granny's after the whole hat drama. Sometimes we get it from MM and David and even Robin holding Regina's hands. Never Regina comforting him though.

These writers are trash. They got decent characters played by good actors and they waste it all on twist and turns no one ever enjoys.

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking back on this ...

 

Emma does appear to believe in him when she says she'll help him fight off the darkness and they can do it together, but that's also part of the reason why he was so upset when she hid Excalibur from him. So yes, in that moment, she was giving him hope and belief in her plan, but based on Emma's actions in "Broken Heart," she believed that "helping" Hook included lying and keeping him in the dark about Excalibur, so her motivational speech to him is a bit more on the optimistic-but-desperate side rather than being total belief in him.

That might be the one area where Emma's go it alone approach might have been a failure, since as a Dark One, she was ill-equipped to help him fight off Darkness, especially since she'd just taken a turn to the darker, herself. When you've got a recovering alcoholic sitting in a bar with a drink in front of him, a person who's drinking, already a bit buzzed, and who was the person who put the drink in front of him probably isn't the best person to help him keep from relapsing. But it's not as though she had too many other options. Her family wasn't even able to support her in holding off the Darkness. They outsourced all that to Hook. Henry might have been able to do some good, since not only does he have whatever relationship he has with Hook (that we've never actually seen on screen) that has them looking together for a house where they can play happy family, he's the product of all Hook's loved ones -- Emma, Bae, and Milah. Then again, he got the vivid Milah's death flashbacks while he was made into a Dark One, so Henry as a reminder of her might not have been such a great thing. Otherwise, it was largely his perception that Emma didn't have faith in him when she held on to Excalibur that set him off, and given David's flip-flopping about where he stands on Hook and how quick David is to believe the worst of Hook (he's five minutes late, he probably turned evil again), David couldn't have convinced him that he believed Hook could hold out. Regina wouldn't even have tried. Who the hell knows what Snow thinks of him.

 

So, basically, Hook was screwed. Emma was incapable of that degree of hope and trust in her current situation, and nobody else really has that faith in him in the best of times. Not to mention the time crunch. Though I do think it would have been more in character for him to have been able to fight it longer, if not in Camelot then in Storybrooke, given that he didn't even notice that apparently he had all this power all along and was able to be his best self that whole time. But plot, plot, plot, twist, twist, twist.

[Faemonic]

I just read an interesting article about phantom limb pain, a common condition among amputees (some 50 percent to 80 percent of all amputees, per the article). I very much doubt the writers have given it much, if any, thought, but the initial pain Hook felt was just the start of his suffering. It's no wonder he turned to rum as a means of self-medicating. Happily for real life amputees, the article was about mirror therapy as a way to provide relief.

I need this to become fanon. This and Clarence.

So, basically, Hook was screwed. Emma was incapable of that degree of hope and trust in her current situation, and nobody else really has that faith in him in the best of times. Not to mention the time crunch. Though I do think it would have been more in character for him to have been able to fight it longer, if not in Camelot then in Storybrooke, given that he didn't even notice that apparently he had all this power all along and was able to be his best self that whole time. But plot, plot, plot, twist, twist, twist.

Well, Hook wasn't screwed...free will...bootstraps...

 

Okay, yes. Hook was screwed. Although I think it's interesting that Rumplestiltskin Clippy was egging him on about casting a Dark Curse and Darth Jones goes, "No. I won't kill Emma." And he didn't sway on that even after Emma lied about having Excalibur, even after she gave his tether to him. Yes, killing the main character of the show would have been writing everyone into a corner. But when he said that all the feelings he had for her were hatred, anger, and disappointment...was it only because he knows she has a natural heart-grab repelling spell so he Darth self couldn't make things "even", and Excalibur is whole and couldn't control anyone? Actually, Excalibur was whole and couldn't control anyone. What's he still angry about again? (Does he still want Gold's head for filling Emma with Darkness--because Darth Jones has done that more effectively...)

 

I can understand better now that he's angry because, first, he didn't want to go into the Darkness vault, because being the Dark One already looked bad from the outside and he didn't want to be it. Emma was all, "That's just your opinion, it's not going to be worse than death..." Strike one.

 

Then Emma lied about having Excalibur on her, at which point "all bets were off" for reasons that Darth Jones shouted about, and he does his red magic teleportation, which means Emma thought she needed to use the thing to summon him, and she did that, which probably made more bets go off...but let's say that's all strike two.

 

It should nullify the strike two that Emma gave Excalibur to him, but I think Darth Jones' red teleport was the last we saw of Killian noping out, and the rest in Camelot was just a Dark One Hive Mind sock puppet with occasional Killian bits. So...Emma steals everybody's memories, which means not only did she dismiss Hook's dying wish, but she dismisses that he ever had that wish...which is extraordinarily dismissive. And she not only hid Excalibur from him, but with the memory spell she hid the fact that she hid Excalibur from him. Strike three knocks it out of the ball park.

 

Emma's suffered way too much before that, all throughout that, and now for me to blame her...but I get why Hook would be grouchy, and the Dark One Hive Mind has muffled his capacity for forgiveness.

[Rumsy4]

Plus her continual refusal to respect his choices and stealing his agency seems to have cut to the core of his insecurities about his relationship with Emma. The DarkOne-ness is affecting both their judgments.

[mjgchick]

I don't know what's sadder to watch, Emma finally having faith in someone only for it to blow up in her face or Hooks redemption being in jeapardy. I use to think Emma was being tested till the end of the series but Hooks probably as well. I'm not sure I can even totally blame him because he did warn her that he was to weak on the other hand it's his fault that for once she has hope. Stop being so damn charming Killian Jones.

[pezgirl7]

Assuming Emma is able find Hook in the underworld, do you think Hook will be OK with Emma's plan to share her heart with him? I hope he's not wallowing in self loathing and doesn't want to leave. But if he does want to leave, will he think sharing a heart is too risky for Emma? Or will he be all, Hell yeah babe, let's do this and go home!

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know about the whole sharing a heart situation. Hades doesn't own hearts, as much as he owns souls.

 

Hook though, when he snapped out of it, even with everything he did, he was just back to who he truly was. I felt for him with the asshat father situation. That was hard, and harsh, and he was so willing to forgive, and forget until he didn't want to. I don't agree with making his half-brother an orphan, and I hope he did something to take care of him, but his father was a jerk.

 

He basically sold his sons into slavery. It's a wonder they even made it to their station in life as military men. 

 

I don't even buy the whole sleeping curse story. That sounded like a straight up lie. In the end, the son turned out to be much braver than the father.

[HoodlumSheep]

Man, poor Hook (and Emma) took a beating this episode.

So he did end up killing his father.

I wonder if we'll see Liam 2.0 (so gross) again? Maybe Hook will try to find him after this whole UW thing.

Either that, or Liam 2.0 is getting sucked into a wormhole, ages to 30ish, and then returns as the big bad of season 6, seeking revenge on the man who killed his father.

Or, this was all part of some elaborate plan. Papa Hook lied about the sleeping curse and he borrowed a shack and kid to set up a ruse of some sort. Lol.

[Mari]

Was this flashback before or after Regina started feeding kids to Blind Anya?  Because poor Liam 2.0 could've been fed to her.

[YaddaYadda]

Was this flashback before or after Regina started feeding kids to Blind Anya?  Because poor Liam 2.0 could've been fed to her.

This happens right before she casts the dark curse. I'm thinking Liam v2.0 is safe.

 

I can't believe they named him Liam. Emma and Hook can't escape their pasts. Her parents named her brother Neal, which is tonight was the first time she uttered his name since 3x22, and his deadbeat father names his new son, after his first born.

 

Parental unit made of suck!

[InsertWordHere]

After. I'm surprised Regina didn't try to get Liam 2.0 to come live with her.

 

Haha, I just realized that Hook didn't need to drag poor Claude to Wonderland, he could have just brought Papa.

[HoodlumSheep]

I hope they don't just forget about Liam 2.0.

I don't know how they're going to fix that relationship (if ever). "Hey, Liam, did your dad ever tell you that he named you after your older half-brother Liam? No? Or that he sold his two young children into servitude because he was a fugitive? Did I forget to tell you he did this after he told me the exact same thing he told you? And...I killed him. Wanna be bestest best brothers now?"

????

Also, we can add another thing to the list that adds more meaning behind Darth Killian wanting to be controlled again. Sold into servitude on a boat by his own father. Yikes.

Edited December 7, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Mari]

So, does this mean that if Hook and Emma ever had children, the name Liam would be off the table?  Can you name your baby after your brother(s), when that's the last thing you talked to your father about before you killed him and presumably abandoned 2.0 to his fate?

[HoodlumSheep]

^ maybe it'll be reserved as a middle name only now?

[Mari]

Maybe.

 

OUAT, the show that makes you ask questions that other shows just don't.

 

 

Can I fanwank that Hook found Liam 2.0 a nice foster family?  He never really had a grudge for kids, except notkidPan?

[InsertWordHere]

Hook and Emma really are kindred spirits. Emma grew up [thinking] she was abandoned on the side of the road and the first parents who took her in got rid of her due to a replacement child. Hook grew up knowing his father sold him into servitude and then his father had a replacement child, who he named after Hook's dead brother. "They all share the same look in their eyes, the look you get when you've been left alone. An orphan's an orphan." 

[HoodlumSheep]

^ sure, Mari. Let the fanwanking commence. After Hook killed his father and before he went on his Wonderland adventure, he found the kid two old nice spinster ladies to take care of him...

Actually, is it weird that I'd rather have him just tell the kid the truth (and then find him a family to stay with). Like, just tell him the truth. He killed their dads. The kid is allowed to hate him forever if he wants to, but he should at least be aware that their dad was crap. And unlike his father, he's going to at least make sure the kid is at least taken care of.

Or the kid isn't really his half-brother at all and Papa Hook just paid the kid to pretend to be his son like what Lily basically did in that one episode....

Maybe Liam 2.0 is going to be Hook's own "Lily," and we'll get more parallels.

I'm just a tad bit in denial over the possibility that Hook didn't even bother to make sure the kid was well taken care of.

Edited December 7, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Rumsy4]

Well, in the end, Killian chose to be a better man than his father. Very Fringe: "Einai Kalytero Anthropo Apo Ton Patera Toy". 

 

Hook's flashback was basically a retread of  the one with Ursula, where he wants to do the right thing, but changes his mind for revenge. I hope Killian will find Liam 2.0 and give him a home with Emma and himself. 

 

I guess I didn't really find the Last Minute Flip all that bad. Dark Hook looked conflicted throughout the episode. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I think the pre-curse Papa Hook flashback was on eggnapping levels of awful retcon, something done just to set up one little bit of present plot that probably won't have further consequences and that really wasn't all that essential to the story, while assassinating a character in a way that doesn't really fit with what we know of the character.

 

While I can totally believe that the Hook of that time might have chosen his revenge over his father's life, especially if he was set off by learning that his father who abandoned him not only named his new little brother after his old big brother but was still using the same lines on the kid, I can't believe that this wouldn't have ended up haunting the man who realized that revenge was pointless. Killing your father would have to be a pretty big deal, as would finding your father alive and starting over in life after more than a century. I guess you can kind of squint and tilt your head and see some of that in him urging Emma to make up with her parents, but as with her parents and the eggbaby, there have been so many parallel circumstances where you'd think it would have come up or at least shown in his reaction.

 

What I really can't believe is that he would have abandoned his little brother the way he was abandoned. Here was another Liam, another brother, for a guy who was shown to have tried to collect "family" members when he found them. He was ready to adopt Bae, in spite of what Bae's father did. Even if Revenge!Hook might not have been ready to adopt Liam 2, wouldn't Reformed!Hook have gone in search of him, either to find him in Storybrooke if he got caught up in the curse or once he was back in the Enchanted Forest between curses? Of course, he couldn't have because the kid didn't exist then, but that's the problem with doing such a massive retcon.

 

Plus, having done this now with his dad, that means they've cut themselves off from any other potential stories with his dad, the reasons for his abandonment, his fate, etc. We just got an #ItHappenedOffscreen sleeping curse to shoehorn him into the show so that he could have a flashback epiphany.

 

I think I'm going to stick with my fantasy headcanon that this wasn't actually his birth father, but rather someone who was entrusted with him and got tired of the responsibility.

[InsertWordHere]

I guess I didn't really find the Last Minute Flip all that bad. Dark Hook looked conflicted throughout the episode. 

I thought so too. At worst, he seemed apathetic about the whole thing, not actively gloating and laughing it up like some of the other villains probably would have been doing. 

 

And despite the (deserved) Bangel comparisons, the important thing to me is that he changed of his own free will and tried to undo the damage he had caused. Angel had to be forcibly recursed.

[Rumsy4]

I was never sold on the theory that Hook's dad was immortal or Charon. I theorized that he might have been in another Realm where time doesn't move. A Sleeping Curse works as well I suppose. Though how he found True Love while in a coma is really unbelievable. A bit like the original Sleeping Beauty I suppose.

 

I guess Hook will face his father again in Hell.

[YaddaYadda]

I was never sold on the theory that Hook's dad was immortal or Charon. I theorized that he might have been in another Realm where time doesn't move. A Sleeping Curse works as well I suppose. Though how he found True Love while in a coma is really unbelievable. A bit like the original Sleeping Beauty I suppose.

 

I guess Hook will face his father again in Hell.

 

And I hope he kills him once more.

[Souris]

You know what story I want to see but the show will never do? How Killian & Liam 1.0 worked their way from servitude to officers in the Royal Navy. That sounds like it would be a great story!

[Curio]

So, does this mean that if Hook and Emma ever had children, the name Liam would be off the table?

No, no. The writers actually just gift-wrapped a "son" named Liam for Emma and Killian to adopt once Killian realizes his step brother got caught up in the curse and is still a young-ish boy who needs to be raised by some loving parents. It will be his way of making it up to Liam 2.0 for making him an orphan in the first place. (I'm trying really hard to be sarcastic here, but I'm now thinking this is 100% where the show is going with this. Ugh.)

 

You know what story I want to see but the show will never do? How Killian & Liam 1.0 worked their way from servitude to officers in the Royal Navy. That sounds like it would be a great story!

But there's no retcon required for that!

Edited December 7, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

But I'm still having a little trouble with arguably the most loyal character in the series suddenly trying to send his girlfriend's entire family (including her child) to hell just because he's mad at her. Even Rumple would have never done anything like that to Belle. Too far, writers.

 

To me, it seemed more like a temporary bout of insanity that was beyond his control. He snapped out of it fast enough. YMMV.

 

Rumple has done things at least equally as bad. Rumple would have happily walked away from Sb last season with just Belle and possible Henry in tow. Who cares if his wife's dad, and his grandson's family are slaughtered, amirite? 

Me too. And I'm having trouble believing he would have orphaned and walked away from Liam 2.0.

 

This I do have trouble with. Pretty cold of him to leave his half-brother an orphan. Did he at least make sure that Liam 2.0 would be okay? I guess in a way, one could compare this with Hook betraying Baelfire to Pan. But then, Bae was older, and Pan would have found him anyway. 

 

And honestly, I wouldn't mind if Emma and Killian went to find the kid and welcomed him as part of their ragtag family. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Rumsy4

[HoodlumSheep]

I can kind of see Hook orphaning "Inigo" because he's already gone through similar stuff with Baelfire and Pan. But at the same time, I also have a hard time believing it? But then again, this was supposed to be when he really, really committed to being evil and getting revenge. So orphaning your half brother (although it was hinted at there being a possibility that Papa Hook didn't change as much as was thought--yeah, he asked for 2 papers, but do we really know if he wouldn't have ditched "Inigo" at some point?) and killing your horrible father seemed properly evil.

I honesty wouldn't be shocked if "Inigo" avoided the curses and showed up to get revenge on the man who killed his father as a 30 somethin' yr-old.

And yes, I'm trying out different names, because typing Liam 2.0 creeps me out more than Baby Neal somehow.

Edited December 7, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Sarcastica]

I still can't believe he has another brother named Liam. So much WTF......

My poor Killy.