The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[Lady S.]

Yeah, being out of touch with reality is something of a Greyjoy family trait, especially in the male Greyjoys. How can they say Theon's not one of them?!

[Constantinople]

I'd still love to know how Jorah's slave-dealing was discovered.  GRRM has never revealed that detail.  Either the slavers were captured and some piece of evidence was discovered or one of Jorah's household members (a maestar or a master-at-arms perhaps) sent a letter to Ned.  Perhaps one of the She-Bears?  I assume Ned would have had to have had some proof for him to take the actions he did.  It could be he got the information and gave Jorah notice to come to Winterfell to answer the charges against him.  When he didn't show up, Ned took the voyage to Bear Island himself.  Of course, Ned is such a moron when it comes to these things I can see him sending a raven to Jorah saying that "I'm coming to behead you, don't go anywhere" and then being completely SHOCKED when he arrives and finds that Jorah is long gone.

 

The slavers being caught sounds most likely, unless the poachers' family members did go to Ned. I don't think Jorah's family betrayed him, Maege blames Lynesse for Jorah's downfall and doesn't seem to have anything against him. To be fair to Ned, trusting Cersei with no back-up plan was very dumb, but there's nothing to suggest he habitually gave a heads-up to criminals. He only did so with Cersei for the sake of her children, who hadn't committed any crimes. Summoning Jorah to Winterfell to answer for his crimes or prove his innocence makes more sense, since the word of slavers or whoever wouldn't be enough proof.

Perhaps Ned gave a heads up to Jorah to give him a chance to go into exile, which is a pretty severe punishment, though not death.

But I'm not sure Ned would evade the law that way, or that Ned would be "subtle" enough to think about that option.

Perhaps Ned wanted to give Jorah a chance to take the black. But wouldn't Jorah still be given that opportunity if he were found guilty by whatever trial would be used in the North (dueling Weirwoods?).

 

So Ned probably just telegraphed his moves (or ravengraphed them).

 

It is interesting to note that despite needing the money, Jorah never sold Longclaw.  We learn later that Tywin was willing to pay a lot of money to acquire a Valaryon sword for his family.  Though I wonder if that's just something society dictated Jorah couldn't do if he were to maintain any kind of credibility.  A Lord selling his family's sword, a Valaryon sword no less, would indicate the desperate financial desperation that Jorah was in.

I forget.

What's the rule about "spoilers" from later books in the series?

I ask because in SoS, I recall Tyrion thinking that families with Valyrian steels words, even poor ones, would sooner part with their daughters than their swords

 

ETA: Removed spoiler tags since Avaleigh stated anything that occurred in the published Books, Books 1-5 is not a spoiler.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Constantinople

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, being out of touch with reality is something of a Greyjoy family trait, especially in the male Greyjoys. How can they say Theon's not one of them?!

I just have to say that this made me lol at work. Too true that they're in denial. ;)

Perhaps Ned gave a heads up to Jorah to give him a chance to go into exile, which is a pretty severe punishment, though not death.

But I'm not sure Ned would evade the law that way, or that Ned would be "subtle" enough to think about that option.

Perhaps Ned wanted to give Jorah a chance to take the black. But wouldn't Jorah still be given that opportunity if he were found guilty by whatever trial would be used in the North (dueling Weirwoods?).

 

So Ned probably just telegraphed his moves (or ravengraphed them).

 

I forget.

What's the rule about "spoilers" from later books in the series?

I ask because in SoS,

I recall Tyrion thinking that families with Valyrian steels words, even poor ones, would sooner part with their daughters than their swords

My opinion preference for this thread has always been that spoiler tags should only be necessary for spoilers for Winds and season 6. Since this is a reread thread I feel like it's clear that this is for people who've already read books 1-5.

One of the reasons I wanted to do the reread project was to be able to catch things we might not have noticed in the initial read. I feel like it's natural to notice something and then comment on how it relates or foreshadows something that is going to come later in the series. JMO.

[Lady S.]

Perhaps Ned gave a heads up to Jorah to give him a chance to go into exile, which is a pretty severe punishment, though not death.

But I'm not sure Ned would evade the law that way, or that Ned would be "subtle" enough to think about that option.

Perhaps Ned wanted to give Jorah a chance to take the black. But wouldn't Jorah still be given that opportunity if he were found guilty by whatever trial would be used in the North (dueling Weirwoods?).

 

So Ned probably just telegraphed his moves (or ravengraphed them).

If the NW was an option for Theon after supposedly murdering two Starks, then it must have been an option for Jorah. Surely that's what Jeor would have wanted, and I think Ned would have offered it as an alternative to beheading. But Jorah didn't want to give up his wife so he probably ran before things got that far. (I think a trial would have just meant Ned judging Jorah's guilt or innoncence, maybe with the interrogation taking place in the godswood.)

[Avaleigh]

Jon II

The men of the Night's Watch are in the abandoned village of Whitetree. The weirwood at the center of the village is the biggest tree that Jon has ever seen with a trunk that is nearly eight feet wide. He thinks the face of the tree is disturbing especially the monstrous looking mouth. Jon can actually feel the power of the tree. 

Thoren Smallwood is a little freaked out by the face of the weirwood too and says it's no wonder that men feared the trees when they first came to Westeros. Jon says that his father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree and the Old Bear says that his own father believed the same thing. 

Mormont wishes that he'd asked the wildlings why it is they burn their dead and Jon remembers the wight and feels that he already knows the answer to that question. 

Mormont orders the men to do a search of the houses and Jon comments on how miserable it must have been to live in one of these homes. Edd replies that he lived in a house like this back in the good old days before his family fell on hard times. 

They don't find anything in the houses and it appears that they've been empty for some time. Whitetree is the fourth abandoned village the group has come across and none of the villages show signs of having been attacked. They're simply empty. 

Jon wonders what happened to all of the wildlings and Edd says that it's probably something worse than what they're already imagining. Ser Mallador Locke thinks that fewer wildlings means fewer worries for the Night's Watch so he doesn't care what's become of them. 

Smallwood suggests making camp in Whitetree but Mormont wants to press on until they reach a lake where they'll be able to fish. Mormont takes the time to write a short note to Maester Aemon about them reaching yet another empty village. Mormont give the letter to Jon so that he can give it to Sam. 

The men left the Wall in good spirits and in the beginning there was lots of talking and joking around. As time goes by however, there's a lot more silence and tempers in general have grown shorter. Nobody wants to admit that they're scared but Jon knows that they're all uneasy. They all seem to agree that the haunted forest has never felt more haunted. 

Jon thinks about Arya for a moment and wonders how she's doing. He's sad to think that he might never muss her hair again.

Jon finds Sam with the other stewards and sees that Sam has been teaching the ravens to talk. They can say 'snow' and Jon's kind of annoyed that Sam couldn't have chosen a different word. He thinks about how snow often means death in the North. 

Jon hands over Mormont's letter and tells Sam that they didn't find anything in Whitetree. Sam sees that the letter is sent off to Maester Aemon and comments that he wishes the raven could carry him back to Castle Black too. 

Sam says that he isn't as scared as he was and shows Jon the maps he's been working on. Jon reflects on how strange it is that Sam appears to be the only one who is growing less fearful when he's the biggest self-confessed coward in the bunch. Jon jokes with Sam about how Sam might consider being a ranger after all and asks him if he should speak to the Old Bear about it. 

Sam was hoping they'd be able to stay overnight in the village but Jon points out that there are too many of them for them to all have been able to sleep under a roof. 

Ghost comes out of the woods from hunting but hasn't been having much luck, and the same is true for the foragers who are being sent out to get game. One of the men suggests that their large number and the noise they make has scared all of the game away and Dywen comments that the animals frightened away by something.

The Old Bear asks Jon if the raven was sent and Jon confirms this adding that Sam is teaching the birds how to talk. Mormont says that Sam will probably end up regretting that saying that the birds make a lot of noise but never really say anything worth hearing. 

Jon asks what his uncle Benjen would have done if he'd found the villages empty and the Old Bear says that Benjen would have made it his purpose to learn why.

Mormont says that their number will increase to three hundred once Qhorin and his men join them, so whatever enemy is out there waiting won't have an easy time of it. Mormont promises Jon that they'll find the enemy and Jon thinks to himself that the enemy might find them instead. 

[Lady S.]

The introduction of Dolorous Edd!

 

Not much else happens in this chapter, but the human bones at the weirwood make me think human sacrifice, not just cremation. The wildlings burn their dead but that's not linked anywhere else to ashes in a heart tree. Also, really, Jeor, you can't figure out on your own why the wildlings burn their dead? He knows there's WW activity out there, but I don't think he's quite grasped the enormity of the threat they face. It's like he's treating this as just another ranging with a whole lot more men to make it successful. I don't think lack of men was the problem for Waymar Royce or the other missing rangers, the upcoming massacre at the Fist of the First Men proved that.

 

Btw, the no man can lie in front of a heart tree comment was why I speculated that a Northern trial might take place in the godswood. I confess I've been reading ahead in the interim. 

[Avaleigh]

I don't have much for this chapter. That weirwood is definitely freaky and I thought it was cool and kind of chilling that Jon can actually feel its power. 

 

I agree that Jeor seems to be underestimating the situation. I think he's mainly thinking about the wildlings in spite of the brush he had with the wight. I'm honestly not sure how they should be proceeding based on the information they have but they're certainly making themselves vulnerable and there doesn't seem to be a specific goal apart from finding out what happened to Benjen and the others. If wildlings had still been in Whitetree would the men of the NW have just asked them questions? Would they have immediately fought? 

 

I laughed that Sam thought that snow would be the best place to start with the ravens. I liked Jon's observation that Sam's the only one in the group who seems to be getting less afraid as the journey goes on. 

 

There's another brief mention of how miserable Chett is.  

 

I might be wrong but I think Jon has thought about Arya in every single one of his chapters. I don't believe that Jon/Arya is happening AT ALL but I do notice these things more because of what was released about GRRM's original plan for the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle. 

 

Arya is up next and there's a nice bit of action in that chapter. 

 

ETA

 

I forgot to mention that Dolorous Edd was easily my favorite part of this chapter. Jon's comments about the hovels in the village sort of made me understand how he got the Lord Snow nickname. It's not that Jon is a diva or that he's arrogant and snobbish like Joffrey, but I do occasionally get a vibe from him that he thinks he's a cut above the average person. I don't think this is a constant trait but it does reveal itself from time to time. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Constantinople]

Jon II

The men of the Night's Watch are in the abandoned village of Whitetree. The weirwood at the center of the village is the biggest tree that Jon has ever seen with a trunk that is nearly eight feet wide. He thinks the face of the tree is disturbing especially the monstrous looking mouth. Jon can actually feel the power of the tree.

Interesting that a weirwood in wildling village of no particular importance is larger than any Jon has ever seen, which includes the one back at Winterfell.

I'm not sure if there's any particular significance to this other than a sense of the power of the North, the "true North" as some might say.

 

Mormont orders the men to do a search of the houses and Jon comments on how miserable it must have been to live in one of these homes. Edd replies that he lived in a house like this back in the good old days before his family fell on hard times.

A nice reminder that, despite having an ice cold step-mother, Jon led a relatively privileged life.

Do we ever find out why Edd joined the Watch? Was it simple poverty?

 

Jon thinks about Arya for a moment and wonders how she's doing. He's sad to think that he might never muss her hair again.

A bit of a parallel between Jon & Arya both travelling in wastelands as part of a group of the Night's Watch. Arguably Arya's is worse in that the wasteland she's travelling through is man made and thus, theoretically preventable.

[benteen]

GRRM said that Yoren told Edd that women love a man in uniform but didn't tell him that he couldn't have women once he joined up.

 

As I recall, Edd talks about growing up in a poor house (his formative years) in this chapter, despite having a noble surname.  Must be a poor cadat branch.

Edited December 14, 2015 by benteen

[Holmbo]

I don't think Ned was necessarily stupid for letting Jorah know he was coming for him. I'm thinking it probably was the same as with Gregor Clegane. He learned about Jorah selling slaves so he stripped him off all titles and sentenced him to die. Then he went to Bear island to carry out the sentence but Jorah had left. To us it might seem like he escaped punishment but not really. To these nobles their titles are everything. He might as well be dead in most eyes. Ot course then he did get a pardon so it was worth it for him I guess. But does that mean he also got bear island back? It seems like that sort of decision could easily lead to a lot of inheritance squabble.

[Lady S.]

Do we ever find out why Edd joined the Watch? Was it simple poverty?

GRRM joked once that Yoren must have tricked him into coming, which I think means Martin didn't really have a specific reason in mind. The books never go into it.

 

I agree that Jeor seems to be underestimating the situation. I think he's mainly thinking about the wildlings in spite of the brush he had with the wight. I'm honestly not sure how they should be proceeding based on the information they have but they're certainly making themselves vulnerable and there doesn't seem to be a specific goal apart from finding out what happened to Benjen and the others. If wildlings had still been in Whitetree would the men of the NW have just asked them questions? Would they have immediately fought?

Idk either what a successful plan of action would be here, but Jeor's approach was definitely a bad one. He said at the end of aGoT that he meant to find Benjen, find out that Mance and the wildlings were up to, and find out more about the other enemies, when doing all three of those things at once was never really possible. Picking one at a time would have been a good start. The only reason they did get somewhere with the Mance and wildlings question was because of Qhorin's ranging and his planting Jon in with Mance as a spy. 

If the wildlings were still in their villages, they probably would have just been questioned. I don't imagine the men/spearwives would want to take on 200+ crows at once.

 

I might be wrong but I think Jon has thought about Arya in every single one of his chapters. I don't believe that Jon/Arya is happening AT ALL but I do notice these things more because of what was released about GRRM's original plan for the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle.

I notice the Jon/Arya stuff because I find the constant mentions of him mussing her hair too cheesy tbh. There better be some payoff to all that. I want those those two to reunite just so I wouldn't have had to read all that repetitive cutesyness for no good reason. Otherwise it wouldn't be sweet but corny, just annoying.

 

I forgot to mention that Dolorous Edd was easily my favorite part of this chapter. Jon's comments about the hovels in the village sort of made me understand how he got the Lord Snow nickname. It's not that Jon is a diva or that he's arrogant and snobbish like Joffrey, but I do occasionally get a vibe from him that he thinks he's a cut above the average person. I don't think this is a constant trait but it does reveal itself from time to time.

You didn't understand the Lord Snow nickname already when it was introduced, back when Jon thought every day with his fellow trainees made him despise them more, because none of them were good competition for him like Robb was? ;) Being ignorant of how the common people live would be true of most castle-raised lord's sons, but I guess with Jon there was also the bastard's thirst to prove himself, which made him believe he could prove himself a cut above if only given the chance. It kinda reminds me of Tyrion, in his rich family insulating him and in the way he seeks to demonstrate he's capable as Tywin. But Tyrion is more arrogant and can be outright contemptuous of those beneath him, because all the Lannisters are pretty full of themselves. Whereas Jon readjusts his thinking when someone shuts him down in his Lord Snow moments, and he can have empathy for pretty much anyone.

[Holmbo]

I too think the Lord Snow nickname feels suiting in this chapter. Not just cause of the scoffing at tiny houses but just the way he and Mormont can relate to each other about the heart tree because they are both northerners.

Talking about northern culture, I wonder if there were any egoistic urges from Mormont that made him decide to lead a ranging. We know that northerners are not one to sit and chillax as they grow old. Maybe he was kinda hoping to go out in a blaze.

[Avaleigh]

Arya IV

 

Arya is somewhere in the Riverlands and she thinks the place seems peaceful until Koss spots a dead soldier lying in the reeds. Lommy has an I-told-you-so moment when he reminds them all that he knew there were bodies in the water they were drinking because he could taste them.

 

Yoren has Dobber check to see if the dead man had any valuables on him and then sees that they won't be able to cross the river because it's too deep. He takes Koss with him upriver to see about getting a ford, sends two men downstream, and tells the rest to put a guard out.

 

Dobber finds a few coppers off of the dead man, Lommy and Tarber go wading in the water, and Lommy begins throwing mud at Hot Pie. Arya watches as Kurd catches a fish and thinks that it seems easier than catching a cat.

 

When the others return, Yoren comes up with a plan to head north so that they can sell what they have to buy a boat that will take them to Harrentown. He says they can buy new mounts there and if not, take shelter with Lady Whent at Harrenhal since she's always been a friend to the Night's Watch.

 

Hot Pie thinks there are ghosts in Harrenhal.

 

Arya was remembering the stories Old Nan used to tell of Harrenhal. Evil King Harren had walled himself up inside, so Aegon unleashed his dragons and turned the castle into a pyre. Nan said that fiery spirits still haunted the blackened towers. Sometimes men went to sleep safe in their beds and were found dead in the morning, all burnt up. Arya didn't really believe that, and anyhow it had all happened a long time ago. Hot Pie was being silly; it wouldn't be ghosts at Harrenhal, it would be knights. Arya could reveal herself to Lady Whent, and the knights would escort her home and keep her safe. That was what knights did; they kept you safe, especially women. Maybe Lady Whent would even help the crying girl.

 

As they go north they start passing a bunch of abandoned fields and they're able to gather a bunch of food without any trouble. When they reach a town that is also abandoned, Yoren feels uneasy but thinks they should have look anyway to see if they can find anything useful.

 

They split into groups to search through the town and Arya ends up with Lommy, Hot Pie, Woth and Gendry. Yoren orders them to look for boats and puts Woth in charge. Arya is frightened and wonders what could have been so terrible that people would choose to run off and leave their homes.

 

They soon realize that all of the boats are gone and Arya takes a moment to wash herself off in the lake. She wonders if she'd be able to swim to Winterfell.

 

When Yoren and the others return they decide that they'll stay the night and figure out how to proceed in the morning. Gendry suggests building rafts to get across and Yoren says he'll sleep on the idea.

 

Yoren thinks it'll be best for them to stay in the holdfast and when he says this, Arya blurts out that she doesn't think they should stay. She says there's obviously a reason all of these people were scared enough to flee and thinks they should do the same.

 

Lommy teases 'Arry' for being scared and Yoren says that Arya is smart to be concerned but says that the difference is that they're part of the Night's Watch and the Night's Watch supposedly doesn't take part in affairs going on in the realm. Arya wants to argue further but chooses to hold her tongue and is concerned about looking like a coward in front of everyone.

 

They bring all of the wagons and everything into the holdfast and bar the gates. Arya, Gendry, and Dobber end up with cooking duty and dinner that evening is unusually quiet. Even the crying girl stops crying once she's given something to eat.

 

Later, as Arya is honing Needle, Hot Pie asks her where she got such a good sword. Arya gives Hot Pie a look that makes him raise his hands defensively so he clarifies to tell her he wasn't trying to imply that she'd stolen it. Arya tells him that her brother gave her the sword and Hot Pie is surprised to learn that 'Arry' has a brother. Arya replies that she has a lot of brothers and lies that they're all older and bigger than she is. She adds that they showed her how to kill the people who go around bothering her, so Hot Pie leaves her alone after this.

 

Arya falls asleep for a bit and then wakes up because she hears the howling of a wolf. She immediately starts putting on her boots and starts waking up the others. They think she's hearing things at first but then Kurz blows his horn to signal the danger and everyone begins dressing frantically and reaching for any weapons they have.

 

Arya runs down to the gate and as she passes the barn, Jaqen H'ghar yells to her that he can fight. She runs up to the parapets so that she can look over to see what's going on.

 

The town is being put to the torch by more than a hundred men. Arya thinks that the banners look red but it's difficult to tell in the dark. Arya feels something on her leg and realizes that it's the crying girl clinging to her. She snaps at the girl to get away, tells her to go and hide, and shoves her when she doesn't move.

 

Some of the riders approach the gate and demand that it be opened in the name of the King. Old Reysen asks them which king they're talking about and gets a cuff for this from Woth.

 

Yoren shouts down to the men that all of the townsfolk are gone. The men down below ask after Lord Beric and Thoros of Myr and Yoren tells the men that neither of those men are inside of the holdfast. He shows them that his cloak is black and that he's part of the Night's Watch. The men down below argue that it could be black for House Dondarrion and this briefly makes Arya flash back to the morning where she threw the blood orange at Sansa and messed up her dress.

 

Yoren demands to speak to whoever has command and Ser Amory Lorch rides forward and demands that they open the gates in the name of King Joffrey. Yoren tells them to do what they like with the town but to leave them all alone because they aren't foes.

 

Arya whispers to Gendry that it should be obvious that they aren't lords or knights and Gendry realizes that the men don't care. Arya gives Lorch a searching look and sees that Gendry is right.

 

Lorch tells Yoren that if they aren't traitors then they shouldn't have any problem opening the gates so that Lorch and his men can see that they're telling the truth. Yoren tells the men that they have his word that they aren't hiding anyone and they proceed to mock him for being a crow.

 

Lorch commands Yoren once more to open the gates and Yoren spits and again refuses. Lorch says that since they're defying the king's command that they're declaring themselves to be rebels. He gives the order to storm the walls and kill them all.

 

Yoren gives the kids orders to defend the wall and they quickly spread out. Hot Pie drops his sword so Arya shoves it back into his hand. He confesses to her that he doesn't know how to fight with a sword so Arya tries to tell him that it's easy but stops talking so that she can bring Needle down on a man trying to climb over the wall. She screams "Winterfell!", cuts off the guy's fingers, and sends him back down to the ground. She's able to send another guy flying and Hot Pie too is able to use his sword to keep a man from making it over the Wall.

 

At one point during the battle Arya sees the Lannister banner and wishes that Joffrey were there so that she can personally stab him in his smirking face with Needle.

 

Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie team up to kill one man and Arya is continuing to yell "Winterfell!" over and over while Hot Pie yells "Hot Pie!"

 

Once it's obvious that their side is going to lose, Yoren shouts at Arya to take the survivors and try to escape through the barn. Arya grabs the crying girl and she, Hot Pie, Gendry, and an injured Lommy go to escape through the burning barn.

 

The animals are all screaming and Arya feels sorry for them. She also sees the three men who are chained in the wagon and all of them are fighting against their chains. Jaqen is calling to Arya for help and Rorge is shouting at them to get him out of the fucking chains. Gendry ignores them and focuses on getting the others out. Arya asks Gendry where she'll be able to find the axe. He tells her there isn't time but she runs off to get it anyway and leaves him in charge of the crying girl.

 

Arya quickly retrieves the axe and, as soon as she has it in her hands, she ends up killing another man who tries to attack her. She runs back into the burning barn even though the smoke is so thick she can't really see. She goes towards Biter's screams and and throws the axe into the wagon. She then runs for the tunnel while Rorge uses the axe to set himself and the other two men free. Arya is about a dozen feet down the tunnel when the barn collapses and brings with it a roar and scent that makes Arya think of hell. She holds her breath, kisses the mud on the floor, and cries.

[Constantinople]

I still don't understand why they didn't sail from Kings Landing to Eastwatch.  It would have been faster, safer and possibly even cheaper given that you wouldn't have to figure out how to feed 30 or so people for the weeks or months it would take to get to the Wall.

 

I also don't understand why Yoren took Rorge and Biter.  Even if you get them to Castle Black, the only question about them is how many men of the Night's Watch would they kill while deserting.

 

Hilarious that Hot Pie's battle cry is "Hot Pie".  I suppose it beats Flea Bottom.

 

Despite Syrio's training, it seems Arya got caught up in the moment and lost control of herself when she yelled "Winterfell!".

 

...it wouldn't be ghosts at Harrenhal, it would be knights. Arya could reveal herself to Lady Whent, and the knights would escort her home and keep her safe. That was what knights did; they kept you safe, especially women.

 

Sometimes Arya can be even more naive than Sansa.

[nodorothyparker]

Since it's Lannister forces and not the Gold Cloaks again and I don't have the book in front of me, I can't remember if we're supposed to think this is the next salvo in the hunt for Robert's remaining bastard or just one of those shitty things that happen in war.  Either way, the whole thing feels like such a useless battle over nothing that's getting a lot of people killed for absolutely no good reason.  But I suppose that's the point, that a lot of the bodies and destruction they've seen up until now haven't been for some greater purpose or bigger political objective either.  It's a theme we'll be seeing again and again through the next few books.

 

I have to assume that Yoren realizes they're all going to be killed whether they open the gate or not.  That's the only way it makes sense that he would engage what's mostly a bunch of children in a losing battle and negate his entire mission south to look for Wall recruits.  Sometimes Yoren feels like a character who doesn't quite realize that his time is past, always talking about how everyone used to be a friend of Watch and took care of them.  Sometimes he reads like a continuation of Ned in showing that the rest of the kingdoms don't really care all that much about what happens in the North or at the Wall and don't consider it worth their consideration when they've got war to wage on each other.

 

Arya does come off as naive thinking that knights from Harrenhal are going to keep her safe and take her home, but she's still a child and it's an evolving process here for her to get it through her head that nobody's going to be coming to her rescue or making all this right.

Edited December 15, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

Agreed that there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for why they didn't travel by ship. I agree too that it makes zero sense why Rorge and Biter were ever let out of their cells. 

 

The way Lorch gives the order to storm the walls and have everyone killed sort of reminds me of Jaime giving the order to have all of Ned's men killed outside of the brothel. 

 

One of the things that surprised me in this chapter is how it starts out with the kids having a bit of relaxed fun. They're playing in the mud and water and are still acting like kids. Arya is already scarred and cautious but she still isn't completely jaded or prepared for what's to come.  

 

It isn't at the point where I can't stand it yet but Arya calling the crying girl "stupid" irritated me and I know that her comments and behavior towards the girl are only going to deteriorate. In some ways Arya is wise beyond her years and in others she can just be flat out insensitive and this is an early example. Yes, she doesn't let the girl die but she doesn't seem to have any real sympathy for why this baby of a girl is a such a crying wreck and I don't think that she'll ever do anything to try to comfort her in any meaningful way. (I might be misremembering though.)  

Edited December 15, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

 

It isn't at the point where I can't stand it yet but Arya calling the crying girl "stupid" irritated me and I know that her comments and behavior towards the girl are only going to deteriorate. In some ways Arya is wise beyond her years and in others she can just be flat out insensitive and this is an early example. Yes, she doesn't let the girl die but she doesn't seem to have any real sympathy for why this baby of a girl is a such a crying wreck and I don't think that she'll ever do anything to try to comfort her in any meaningful way. (I might be misremembering though.)  

Spoiler alert: You're misremembering. 

 

Since it's Lannister forces and not the Gold Cloaks again and I don't have the book in front of me, I can't remember if we're supposed to think this is the next salvo in the hunt for Robert's remaining bastard or just one of those shitty things that happen in war.  Either way, the whole thing feels like such a useless battle over nothing that's getting a lot of people killed for absolutely no good reason.  But I suppose that's the point, that a lot of the bodies and destruction they've seen up until now haven't been for some greater purpose or bigger political objective either.  It's a theme we'll be seeing again and again through the next few books.

 

No, the goldcloaks' search was connected to this fight on the show, but they're completely unconnected in the book. This is just part of Tywin's general order to make the eastern riverlands a hellish wasteland. 

 

 

Sometimes Arya can be even more naive than Sansa.

 

I think she and Sansa are about equally naive at this point. But then I just remembered my reason for saying so is Sansa's upcoming 2nd chapter, so I'll leave it at that. Both of them probably knew better than Yoren about avoiding the Lannister army, though.

 

Yoren's been doing this steadily for 30 years so I guess maybe NW neutrality was still respected in Robert's Rebellion. Meaning Tywin and his henchmen were ignoring previously honored conventions of war even before the Red Wedding.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[John Potts]

I can't see any side ignoring a party of armed men wondering through the Realm being ignored during Robert's Rebellion. If I had to guess, I'd say that Yoren was too young to play any major part in the Night Watch eighteen(?) years previously and that they restricted their recruitment to the North (and maybe the Vale and Riverlands) to stop from having to pass through contested terrain. After all, it's bound to have occurred to Tywin that you could sneak a small party of men into enemy terrain by dressing them in Black Cloaks and using them as a hit squad (I know Tywin was officially neural during Robert's war until the very end, but he can't be the only one to use dirty tricks). 

[Lady S.]

I can't see any side ignoring a party of armed men wondering through the Realm being ignored during Robert's Rebellion. If I had to guess, I'd say that Yoren was too young to play any major part in the Night Watch eighteen(?) years previously and that they restricted their recruitment to the North (and maybe the Vale and Riverlands) to stop from having to pass through contested terrain. 

He says he's been wandering the realm for 30 years. Yoren is not young. With that much experience he must have had a reason for thinking NW neutrality was real. Disguising yourselves as NW to attack would be just as bad as attacking real NW, so I don't think that would be a regular practice. It's like carrying a white flag of peace, the people doing so could be lying but there has to be some level of trust or else no one could send envoys that way. NW trapped in the south when war breaks out have to have a way to get back to the Wall. (Although this is a reason why it's a plot contrivance that they didn't go by ship.)

 

Also, the real issue is that Amory Lorch did not really care whether they were enemies or not. It was a completely pointless fight. They were torching an empty town and looking for a fight. Tywin's dogs are slaughtering and torturing everyone they find for info on the BwB and all it does is give people more reason to hate Tywin and support Beric. 

[netlyon2]

I've always seen Yoren's part of the story as another example of how bad things have become in the realm. If he truly believes that both sides will respect the NW's neutrality and the NW is severely undermanned, then it makes sense to me that he's decided to travel overland to try to pick up as many new recruits as possible. It definitely seems more rational than his agreeing to take Rorge and Biter, but even that questionable choice is understandable if he's seen other guys that bad made useful at the Wall.

In addition to serving as Father/Protector #3 for Arya, Yoren serves as an early example of just how desperate things have become for the smallfolk (refusing aid or food) and just how far the Lannisters will go in breaking long-held and long-respected customs (see also, guest right and envoys). Lady S., you make an excellent point about Lorch being another one of Tywin's dogs; Arya's journey gives us a good-and-horrible look at both of the rabid killers who handled Tywin's wetwork in taking out the Targaryen heirs. It's scary that Lorch is probably the nicer of the two.

Edited December 17, 2015 by netlyon2

[benteen]

The Battle at Castle Darry...that was one of my first adaptation disappointments.  In the books, it's an absolutely wild free-for-all while on the show it's a budget limited fight.  I understand restrictions on a television show but I was still disappointed.

 

Good point about why Yoren didn't take a boat back, especially considering that the Night's Watch does have ships.  I think I have an answer for that though.  Tyrion could have taken a ship from Eastwatch back to King's Landing but I think he made it a point of taking the long way back, to "see the country."  Also, Tyrion knew about Bran's injury at this point and wanted to give his plans for that saddle over to House Stark.  Yoren too wanted to tell House Stark that Benjen was missing.  So they took the long way home, which led to Tyrion being arrested.

 

Now, why didn't they take a ship back to the Wall?  My guess is probably just a lack of coin to hire a ship.  Not to mention things were starting to get crazy around King's Landing and there was a probably a massive military presence at the docks.

[vibeology]

At what point did Stannis and the fleet become a threat compared to the group leaving King's Landing? It might not line up, but I could see Yoren opting to avoid trouble on the seas.

[WearyTraveler]

I agree that lack of money was one reason.  We read later that Jon will ask for a loan from the Braavos bank, so we know The Watch is not swimming in it.  Yoren would have had to pay for passage for all the recruits he was taking back and that adds up.  Yoren would not take a ship unless it was absolutely necessary and, considering that he had reason to believe the Watch would be respected or at least ignored, why would he? Wouldn't it draw more suspicion if he tried to take a ship when there was no apparent reason that the ship owner could discern for him to do so?

 

But I also think port availability was an additional complication.  We know that the dock at King's Landing was being watched (Arya almost falls into the trap of trying to board the ship her father had hired before he died), and the other ports would be close to the Eerye (where LF and Sansa dock later),  and south of KL.  The former adds the danger of going through the mountains, where everyone knows the clans are active and don't give a shit about houses or associations.  The latter extends their journey even more.

 

Off course Yoren could try to hire a boat on the down-low and have everyone get to it by dingy in the middle of the night, but that would cost even more.

 

In addition, if they had taken a ship, someone would have to escort Arya south, from the Watch to Winterfell, whereas, Yoren could just drop her off on his trip north by land, either at Winterfell, or with her brother's soldiers, if he met them somewhere in the Riverlands.  It all had to be done secretly because Yoren was breaking the rules by protecting Arya.  He became involved in the Lannister-Stark conflict by taking her; even though we as readers are happy when he does so.

 

The longer people were around Arya, the more likely it would be that someone recognized her, or at least found out she was a girl and that would lead to questions.  How would the bathroom situation work on a boat for Arya?  Wouldn't the fact that she never "makes water" in front of other guys, or over the railing attract suspicion?

 

I think Yoren took the path he considered to be the most efficient and secretive, considering what he knew at the time.

Edited December 17, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[benteen]

Excellent post and I think we were definitely able to answer the question why Yoren didn't take a boat.

 

I'll throw in one more reason.  Even a boat full of shady people wouldn't want take a charter full of Night's Watch recruits, many of whom are criminals.

[Lady S.]

Now, why didn't they take a ship back to the Wall?  My guess is probably just a lack of coin to hire a ship.  Not to mention things were starting to get crazy around King's Landing and there was a probably a massive military presence at the docks.

The thing I keep coming back to, though, is that Yoren said he was supposed to take Ned to the Wall. If Varys really wanted Ned alive and if Cersei really wanted him alive and trapped at the Wall, then I think that would mean secure travel by ship. It's possible Cersei did arrange for a ship and wasn't going to waste it once Joff ruined the Ned plan, but it seems like Yoren was ready to go by land on the day of Ned's execution. He didn't have to buy all those donkeys and wagons at the last minute because his travel plans changed, and he says he thought about going by ship but chose not to (as if sea travel was a real option for them). It would make more sense if Ned was meant to travel separately from Yoren's party, but I guess that detail was just to confirm Cersei wasn't lying about her intent.

 

At what point did Stannis and the fleet become a threat compared to the group leaving King's Landing? It might not line up, but I could see Yoren opting to avoid trouble on the seas.

Tyrion just sent Janos Slynt to the Wall by ship, and later sends Myrcella on a roundabout route to Dorne via Braavos, so I don't think Stannis's fleet was stopping northern passage from KL.

In addition, if they had taken a ship, someone would have to escort Arya south, from the Watch to Winterfell, whereas, Yoren could just drop her off on his trip north by land, either at Winterfell, or with her brother's soldiers, if he met them somewhere in the Riverlands.  It all had to be done secretly because Yoren was breaking the rules by protecting Arya.  He became involved in the Lannister-Stark conflict by taking her; even though we as readers are happy when he does so.

Or he could just stop in at White Harbor and let Manderly knights escort Arya to Winterfell. That was how Robb demanded Cersei send the girls home. Anyway, his travel plans were made with Ned in mind, not Arya, she was the only last minute change but it appears everything was already settled, donkeys ready, wagons loaded, etc.

Sometimes things just happen a certain way in these books for plot reasons and GRRM doesn't always put much thought into logistics. And I would agree with those who have said the Rorge and Biter thing also qualifies. There are rapists and murderers at the Wall, but I doubt they usually have to travel by cage.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Lady S.

[WearyTraveler]

IIRC, Yoren said he was all set to go when someone told him he had to wait to take Ned.  So, all the donkeys and the supplies were already bought before he got the news that he would be taking Ned North.

 

I suppose Cersei thought that her father's men, who were the ones torching the Riverlands, would not interfere with Ned because her own father would give the orders to prevent that.  And anyone who didn't like the Lannisters but couldn't voice their discontent would probably be on Ned's side also, so they would let him be on his way to the Wall.

 

There's also Ned's famous honor.  He said he would take the black, and that's as good as money in the bank when it comes to Ned.  Cersei knew that no matter what happened Ned would do his best to get to the Wall.  Even if Robb's men "rescued" him.  Sansa and Arya's lives were in the balance.  So Ned would do what he said he was going to do.

 

And once he said the words, we all know Ned Stark would have stayed at the Wall until the end of his days.  No matter what.

 

There was no reason to fear for Ned's life or doubt his commitment to his word in his journey to Castle Black.

[Lady S.]

There's also Ned's famous honor.  He said he would take the black, and that's as good as money in the bank when it comes to Ned.  Cersei knew that no matter what happened Ned would do his best to get to the Wall.  Even if Robb's men "rescued" him.  Sansa and Arya's lives were in the balance.  So Ned would do what he said he was going to do.

And yet Cersei somehow thought she could seduce Ned, accused him of siring Jon through rape, and kept insisting he was no better than Robert or herself. Did she have an epiphany and realize how wrong she was after that conversation? Cersei knowing she was wrong about anything would be a first. Cersei does not understand good people like Ned, and I don't think she would put so much trust in a quality she does not value and doesn't fully believe exists. Varys may have sold the deal to Ned as if Cersei now trusted him, but I think Varys tailors his schtick based on his audience and the circumstances. In Tyrion I here, she only said "we might have made peace with that son of his" if Ned had kept his head, which indicates to me she didn't think it was a sure thing that Ned would tell Robb to lay off and that Robb would listen. Even if Cersei trusted Ned's word, I don't think she would trust the actions of Yoren, Robb, and the northern lords. She's just always been very suspicious and mistrusting, even before her paranoia really went off the rails.

Yoren being ready to go before he learned about Ned is itself a plot contrivance imo. If he found out the day of Ned's death, that would mean it took him about 3 months to find all his recruits and supplies in KL. If Varys told him as soon as Ned was arrested, he would have still been in town a few weeks, which I guess makes sense if Yoren's in no hurry to leave the city, but still there's no need for Varys to hold up Yoren instead of having Cersei arrange separate transport. It's not like Ned needs a NW brother to escort him to the Wall. Is Varys that concerned with pinching pennies on ship travel?

I'll stop now before we go in circles.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion III

 

Stannis' letter has made its way to King's Landing and the rest of the realm, so Cersei is ranting to the small council about how she refuses to stand for this sort of treason. Littlefinger is certain that every lord in the Seven Kingdoms has seen the letter by now, so Cersei starts talking about how they should just burn every copy in existence before her father or Joffrey hears about them.

 

Tyrion tells Cersei that there's no way Tywin hasn't already been told and says there's no point in burning the letters anyway since they can't unsay what's already been said. Tyrion doesn't think it's that big of a deal and Cersei asks him if he's stupid or something because the last time she checked being accused of incest, adultery, and treason is kind of a big deal.

 

Tyrion marvels to himself for a moment about how angry and indignant Cersei is over accusations from Stannis that she knows are perfectly true and thinks that she'd make a pretty good actress. He explains to his sister that Stannis has to have a reason to try to take the throne so it's only expected that he would hit their side with something of this nature.

 

Cersei mainly seems upset about being labeled a whore and Tyrion snarks inwardly that Stannis isn't claiming that Jaime paid her.

 

Tyrion focuses for a moment on how the Lord of Light is mentioned and Pycelle explains that a lot of people from the Free Cities use the phrase. Littlefinger brings up Varys mentioning Selyse taking up with a red priest some years ago, so Tyrion guesses that Stannis has now done the same. He thinks they'll be able to use Stannis' conversion against him and have the High Septon declare that he's turned his back on the rightful gods in addition to having betrayed his King.

 

Cersei wants people stop talking about the incest so she proposes that any man who talks about it should lose his tongue. Pycelle thinks this is a good idea and Tyrion has to explain why it isn't. Cersei asks Tyrion what he would have them do and Tyrion doesn't think they really need to do much of anything saying that any man with a drop of common sense is going to see why Stannis would make such an outrageous claim.

 

Tyrion tells Cersei that Stannis has no proof and slyly asks how Stannis could find any evidence when the incest never happened anyway. This forces Cersei to sort of agree and then Littlefinger adds his voice in support of Tyrion's saying that trying to silence the gossip will only give the rumors validity.

 

In the meantime, Littlefinger suggests that they fight fire with fire and when Cersei asks him what he means by this, Littlefinger suggests spreading rumors about Stannis. Cersei is all for this plan and wonders if they should put out the story that Stannis is being cuckolded with Princess Shireen's real father actually being the uncle or brother of Selyse. Tyrion is a little grossed out by Littlefinger's idea but admits that it seems like a promising plan. Littlefinger says that the more wild the rumor the more likely it is to be repeated, so he suggests putting it out there that Patchface is Shireen's real father and that this is the real explanation for the fool's devotion to the little girl. He goes so far as to claim that they look alike.

 

Pycelle seems genuinely shocked at Littlefinger's suggestion and even seems to feel some sympathy for Shireen because of her appearance due to the greyscale. Littlefinger is confident that the smallfolk will easily believe his tale because they like hearing sordid stories about highborn people and a stern, hardass like Stannis is exactly the sort of person that people will want to believe the worst about.

 

Cersei *really* likes Littlefinger's plan and gives him a smile that Tyrion notes is the sort of smile that she would typically use only for Jaime.

 

Tyrion comments on what a practiced liar Littlefinger is and privately thinks that Littlefinger is even more dangerous than he'd first realized. Littlefinger meets Tyrion's gaze and tells him that they all have their gifts.

 

Cersei is still pretty excited about spreading the story of how Stannis is being cuckolded and Tyrion cautions her that the story can't come from their camp or people will be able to see it for the self serving lie that it is. Littlefinger says that the tales can be spread through the brothels and that Varys can see to the news being spread in ale houses and pot shops.

 

As Littlefinger mentions Varys, Cersei notes the eunuch's absence and Pycelle takes the time to let everyone know that he doesn't trust Varys. Tyrion seems to know why Varys is absent and tells Pycelle that Varys always speaks so fondly of him.

 

Tyrion excuses himself from the meeting and this instantly makes Cersei suspicious. She demands to know if Tyrion's business is the King's business and Tyrion says that he's having a chain made for Joffrey as a kind of gift. Cersei tells Tyrion that Joffrey already has more gold and silver chains than he can wear and says that he's mistaken if he thinks that he'll be able to buy Joffrey's love with gifts. Tyrion tells his sister that surely he already has the love of his nephew and insists that Joffrey may one day cherish this chain more than any other.

 

Bronn is waiting for Tyrion outside of the chambers of the small council and announces that some smiths are waiting to speak with him. Tyrion takes a moment to tell Bronn that he's starting to sound more and more like a courtier and teases that he'll be kneeling any day now. They banter a bit and Tyrion pretends like he can't hear Lady Tanda as she calls out to him.

 

Once he's in his rooms, he sees that his twelve year old squire Podrick Payne is laying out clothes for him on the bed. Podrick is incredibly shy and Tyrion can't help but suspect that his father saddled him with this squire as a kind of joke.

 

Pod helps Tyrion get dressed and when Tyrion goes into the audience chamber for the Hand of the King, he gets a thrill out of being announced as Hand. He also likes how grand the room is.

 

Once Tyrion is seated he tells the smiths, armorers, and ironmongers assembled that he needs them to get started on building a massive chain. He gives Goodman Ironbelly the job of overseeing the building of the chain, so Ironbelly asks how they're supposed to get the chain built in addition to meeting the numbers Cersei has already demanded for swords and mail for the new gold cloaks. Tyrion makes it clear that the chain is the first priority and is informed that Cersei has threatened to have the hands smashed of every man who fails to meet his numbers. Tyrion promises that no one is going to have their hand smashed and sarcastically thinks about how Cersei is doing everything she can to make sure that the smallfolk love their side.

 

Tyrion tells Ironbelly that Littlefinger will help him get the money and promises that the City Watch will help with finding all of the necessary iron even if it means having to melt down every horseshoe in King's Landing.

 

A master amorer named Salloreon steps forward to tell Tyrion that working on the chain is beneath his superior skills so Tyrion plainly tells the man that he can either wear chains or make one.

 

As Tyrion heads back to his litter, he sees a bunch of common people glaring at him and it makes him think about how he's done everything that he can to try to help feed the city. As he rides through the streets he thinks about all of the informers that must be present. He decides that the innocent looking people are the ones he should be cautious around.

 

They go to a brothel behind the hill of Rhaenys and Tyrion is greeted inside by a woman named Chataya. She tries to get Tyrion's name but he refrains and tells her that names can be dangerous. He compliments her on the brothel and asks to see some of the girls.

 

Chataya recommends her sixteen year old daughter for Tyrion's pleasure and explains that where they're from, in the Summer Isles, the gods look highly upon people who are skilled lovers. Tyrion admits that if he could pray with his cock that he'd be a lot more religious. He accepts Chataya's suggestion of her daughter Alayaya and goes with her to a room where they can be alone.

 

Once they're in the room, Alayaya tells Tyrion that he'll find what he seeks through the wardrobe. Inside is a ladder that takes him down into a tunnel that leads him to a waiting Varys who's in disguise. Varys asks Tyrion how he liked Chataya's and Tyrion acknowledges that he might have liked it too much.

 

Tyrion wonders about Chataya's loyalty and Varys explains that Chataya has no cause to love Cersei, plus Tyrion helped her out by getting rid of Allar Deem.

 

They discuss how good Varys is at disguising himself and joke about how Cersei would react to seeing him dressed down like this. Varys casually mentions that some of the spies on Cersei's payroll actually belong to him.

 

Tyrion wonders how Chataya's has its convenient secret entrance and Varys explains that there was a previous Hand of the King who was too proud to openly go into brothels.

 

Varys saddles a horse for Tyrion and helps him disguise himself as a young boy saying that people usually see what it is they expect to see, and children are obviously a lot more common than dwarves.

 

Tyrion tells Varys about the session with the small council and mentions the letter. Tyrion wonders how Stannis found out about the incest in the first place and wonders if Varys was the one to whisper the truth in his ear. Varys claims he didn't have anything to do with it but admits that he wouldn't tell Tyrion the truth even if he had. He points out that Robert's bastards were out there as evidence anyway.

 

"He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing," Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. "Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens . . . and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister's thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse."

 

Tyrion shook his head. If she had borne only one child for her husband, it would have been enough to disarm suspicion . . . but then she would not have been Cersei. "If you were not this whisperer, who was?"

 

Varys suggests that some traitor might have told turned Stannis on to the truth and Tyrion wonders if Varys means Littlefinger. Varys points out that he gave no name and this causes Tyrion to say that he sometimes feels Varys is both his best friend and worst enemy in King's Landing.

 

Varys replies that he feels the same way about Tyrion.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Avaleigh

[John Potts]

Avaleigh [Tyrion] thinks about how Cersei is doing everything she can to make sure that the smallfolk love their side.

 

 

Cersei really has NO idea about human nature, does she? Nothing like loudly & publicly banging the stable door once the horse has not just bolted, but died of exhaustion & been turned into glue! Did she REALLY believe Tywin wouldn't have heard by now? Littlefinger may be a little shit, but at least he knows what he's talking about.

 

 

Avaleigh Cersei mainly seems upset about being labeled a whore and Tyrion snarks inwardly that Stannis isn't claiming that Jaime paid her.

 

Love that line!

[Holmbo]

Is it widely as accepted that the tunnel to the whore house was built for Tywin?

I feel like it would be more trouble than its worth to build a secret tunnel than to just wear a disguise or something.

[WearyTraveler]

Is it widely as accepted that the tunnel to the whore house was built for Tywin?

I feel like it would be more trouble than its worth to build a secret tunnel than to just wear a disguise or something.

 

 

I don't think we can say anything about this tunnel with a good degree of certainty.  Varys might be lying.  Or it was built along with the original tunnels of the Red Keep, or it was built by some other Hand hundreds of years in the past.  There are too many possibilities.

Edited December 21, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[John Potts]

I don't really buy the "Tywin built the tunnel" theory, because it seems like something he just wouldn't bother with - he'd just require the girl to come to the Red Keep (which could be for any Lord) and say nothing under pain of death. I won't exactly be up in arms and say if GRRM reveals it was Tywin that it's a total betrayal of his character (it isn't), but we do have centuries of Hands who probably wanted their "Recreational Activities" kept secret (and probably wanted to avoid tramping through streets full of potentially hostile subjects).

[Avaleigh]

I think Tywin had it built. I can't see him really being one for wearing disguises. the reason I don't think it was another Hand is because Tywin is easily the most interesting choice in this story. It'd be different to me if we hadn't learned about the tunnel's existence via Tyrion while Tyrion is Hand. 

 

As for him having girl's brought to him--I can see that to a point but I can also see him thinking that the Red Keep has more eyes and ears and even if the girl didn't say anything she could still be caught up. He has more control over the variables in a way if he goes to them via secret passage. 

 

We already got a taste of it with Ned but the lowborn people of King's Landing all glaring at Tyrion while he's doing his best to protect them and see to their interests makes the job as Hand seem pretty thankless. 

 

I enjoyed seeing Tyrion being shameless in his thoughts about how much he likes having people bow down. In the show he has a weakness for bastards, cripples, and broken things and maybe this is true in the books too, but I also think it's clear that Tyrion is very fond of pretty things and seems to feel that it's his right to be in beautiful and elegant surroundings.

 

I think the first time around I was fooled and I was pretty sure that Tyrion was already looking to move on from Shae. I definitely underestimated his attachment to her. I still don't really get it truth be told.  

 

Littlefinger is in top form in this chapter. I like that even a jerk like Pycelle is pretty disgusted with the Pathface/Selyse lie. He also seems to be the only one to appreciate that poor Shireen's life already sucks enough. 

 

Cersei's first response is so ridiculous and childish it definitely adds up with the woman whose head we finally get inside in the later books. I agree that Cersei was retconned in a way and that she didn't seem *as* stupid in the first three books but this chapter is a pretty good early example of how she's both dumb and cruel. It also reminds me of when Tyrion once commented on how Cersei will more likely see an insult before she sees an opportunity. She mainly sees the insult of being called a whore. She needs other people to get her to see how they can attempt to turn something like this to their advantage. 

 

I wonder how the Mountain clans in general feel about being with Tyrion. The Black Ears seemed all excited that they were apparently on Brothel Avenue and were given the time to have fun. I'm curious as to how Shagga is faring. I can't recall what happened to him after the Battle of the Blackwater. I'm surprised that there are actually a couple of people from the clans that I care about. Chella is another. 

[Holmbo]

I feel like it was Tywin because Varys didn't say who it was. If it was just some random hand GRRM would have had him say something like it was Petrick Baratheon, or whatever.

[Lady S.]

I feel like it was Tywin because Varys didn't say who it was. If it was just some random hand GRRM would have had him say something like it was Petrick Baratheon, or whatever.

Yeah, if it's just a bit of historical trivia, why not use the guy's name? Could be Varys actually wanted Tyrion to ask who it was but he didn't take the bait. And I totally agree with Avaleigh that control freak Tywin would definitely go to such lengths. There are no secrets in the Red Keep, and even the tunnel isn't secret if Varys knows about it, so its hardly an unnecessary move. Also, how do we know there was already a brothel there before Chataya brought her business to KL? If the tunnel was somewhat recently built, than it had to be Tywin. His replacements under Aerys weren't in office long enough and one of them was gay, we know it wasn't Ned, and Jon Arryn didn't have a problem visiting the place openly with Stannis. But the main reason I think so is because I think it's better writing if there was a clue to this aspect of Tywin before the Shae reveal, rather than this being a throwaway line that's not a clue about anybody important.

 

 

I think the first time around I was fooled and I was pretty sure that Tyrion was already looking to move on from Shae. I definitely underestimated his attachment to her. I still don't really get it truth be told.  

 

It's not about Shae herself, he's subconsciously trying to recreate his secret marriage to Tysha, perhaps prompted by Tywin forbidding him from bringing Shae with him. I don't think he's ever ever had a prolonged relationship with any other whore. I know there's a chapter much later on where this connection is more clear, but already in his previous chapter with Janos Slynt, he was thinking of Shae and Tysha both.

 

Anyway, I'm glad this chapter ended before he actually got to Shae, I was expecting a sex scene, and I think I'm going to go into every Tyrion chapter fearing to find one.

 

Cersei really has NO idea about human nature, does she? Nothing like loudly & publicly banging the stable door once the horse has not just bolted, but died of exhaustion & been turned into glue! Did she REALLY believe Tywin wouldn't have heard by now? Littlefinger may be a little shit, but at least he knows what he's talking about.

I also love how her first instinct when Littlefinger suggests making up a rumor of their own is to accuse Selyse of incest, just like she later contemplates accusing Marg and Loras of incest. "No, I'm not sleeping with my brother, you are! I'm rubber and you're glue!"

 

I found it kind of odd that Tyrion was so struck by Littlefinger's gift for lying. He already knows Littlefinger framed him for murder and that's pretty damn dangerous.

 

Interesting that Varys only knew about half of Robert's bastards, which supports what I was saying earlier about how there must be others still out there besides Gendry. No way that Cersei (or anyone else, really) had better intelligence than Varys.

[Constantinople]

Yeah, if it's just a bit of historical trivia, why not use the guy's name? Could be Varys actually wanted Tyrion to ask who it was but he didn't take the bait. And I totally agree with Avaleigh that control freak Tywin would definitely go to such lengths. There are no secrets in the Red Keep, and even the tunnel isn't secret if Varys knows about it, so its hardly an unnecessary move. Also, how do we know there was already a brothel there before Chataya brought her business to KL? If the tunnel was somewhat recently built, than it had to be Tywin. His replacements under Aerys weren't in office long enough and one of them was gay, we know it wasn't Ned, and Jon Arryn didn't have a problem visiting the place openly with Stannis. But the main reason I think so is because I think it's better writing if there was a clue to this aspect of Tywin before the Shae reveal, rather than this being a throwaway line that's not a clue about anybody important.

I'm guessing Varys was referring to Tywin as well...and yet, when the time came, Tywin apparently had no difficulty sneaking Shae into his bedroom in the Tower of the Hand.

 

I found it kind of odd that Tyrion was so struck by Littlefinger's gift for lying. He already knows Littlefinger framed him for murder and that's pretty damn dangerous.

Perhaps because this proposed lie was much better than Littlefinger's lie about the dagger. Not that I really want to start the debate again about why Catelyn should have realized that LF was full of shit.

 

Interesting that Varys only knew about half of Robert's bastards, which supports what I was saying earlier about how there must be others still out there besides Gendry. No way that Cersei (or anyone else, really) had better intelligence than Varys.

Although thanks to what Cersei knows from a certain prophecy, in this case she does have better intelligence.

[benteen]

Really loved your chapter summary, Avaleigh.  Loved the bits about how excited Cersei was getting over the cuckold story...Cersei really is a great source of comedy.

 

I suspect Tywin built that tunnel too.  He's someone who wants to control the narrative about absolutely everything and would go to these lengths to eliminate even the possibility of this information leaking out.

 

Tyrion should have gotten rid of Littlefinger just on suspicion alone.

 

I believe 7 of Robert's 16 bastards are identified or referred to in the books.  I wonder who the rest are.

 

I'm surprised that Pycelle showed some sympathy towards Shireen.  That's more than her Uncle Renly ever showed her.  Sorry, Renly, never forgiving you for your Shireen comment in the first book!

[Lady S.]

Although thanks to what Cersei knows from a certain prophecy, in this case she does have better intelligence.

She knows their number, but not where to find them. We see what happens when Cersei's searching blindly with her bounty on Tyrion, but there's no mention of a slaughter of every black-haired child in Lannister-controlled lands the way there was with dwarfs, so I don't think she felt the need to try killing every one of them, including the unknown bastards.

 

I'm surprised that Pycelle showed some sympathy towards Shireen.  That's more than her Uncle Renly ever showed her.  Sorry, Renly, never forgiving you for your Shireen comment in the first book!

Me either, it's such a telling moment for Renly. Why should we buy Renly's hype as the caring alternative to Stannis when that's the way he talks about his own niece? And surprise, surprise, he talked shit about Brienne behind her back too, meaning there's not one instance of Renly caring about someone outside his Baratheon/Tyrell inner circle.

 

And yeah, things sure are bad when the weasally lecher Pycelle has to be the group's conscience. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Lady S.

[benteen]

She knows their number, but not where to find them. We see what happens when Cersei's searching blindly with her bounty on Tyrion, but there's no mention of a slaughter of every black-haired child in Lannister-controlled lands the way there was with dwarfs, so I don't think she felt the need to try killing every one of them, including the unknown bastards.

 

Me either, it's such a telling moment for Renly. Why should we buy Renly's hype as the caring alternative to Stannis when that's the way he talks about his own niece? And surprise, surprise, he talked shit about Brienne behind her back too, meaning there's not one instance of Renly caring about someone outside his Baratheon/Tyrell inner circle.

 

And yeah, things sure are bad when the weasally lecher Pycelle has to be the group's conscience. 

 

Heheh.  Too true about Pycelle.  Once and a while he's on the right side of things.

[Avaleigh]

Bran II

 

Winterfell is full of guests who are there for the harvest feast and Bran is thinking about how he'll have to spend the day playing the prince while all of the other boys including the two Walders are going to get to spend the morning tilting.

 

Master Luwin thinks that this will give Bran an opportunity to learn more about what it means to be a lord and Ser Rodrik reminds Bran that he's the Stark in Winterfell while Robb is away.

 

Two days ago Lord Wyman Manderly arrived along with a large entourage. He's even brought musicians and a juggler. Bran welcomes Manderly and his people and Ser Rodrik compliments Bran on how well he does afterwards.

 

Ser Rodrik tells Bran that Manderly didn't travel all of this way to simply have dinner at Winterfell; he must have something important that he wants to discuss. Bran can almost hear his father and Robb advising him and thinks about how winter is coming.

 

Hodor helps Bran gets dressed for the day and takes him down to the courtyard where they watch the tilting practice. People stare at Bran because he's in the basket on Hodor's back but Bran's at the point now where he's mostly able to ignore the staring.

 

Bran notes that the two Walders both have shields that are quartered to include the sigils from their maternal side as well. Bran thinks to himself that Starks only need their direwolves.

 

Bran thinks that Big Walder is a better rider and wishes that he could have the chance to ride against either Walder. Little Walder sees Bran on Hodor's back and snarks that Hodor is an ugly looking horse. Poor Hodor smiles and doesn't realize that he's being insulted.

 

The Walders keep being mean and rude so Bran starts to get pissed. He tells Little Walder to shut up and Little Walder asks Bran what he's going to do if he doesn't. Big Walder reminds his cousin that Bran does have a direwolf at his command but Little Walder doesn't seem to care. He says that Bran can bring it on and tells him he's always wanted a wolfskin cloak. Bran replies that Summer could tear his head off if he wanted, but Little Walder seems to feel protected by his armor.

 

Maester Luwin runs out at this point and tells them all to stop. He asks Little Walder if this is the way he behaves when he's at the Twins and the boy glares at Luwin replying that he does if he wants.

 

Big Walder tells Luwin that they were just joking around with Hodor and apologizes for himself and his cousin if they offended Bran. Big Walder to his credit at least seems to feel a little ashamed of himself. Both Walders claim that they were only trying to be amusing.

 

The bald spot atop the maester's head had turned red, Bran could see; if anything, Luwin was more angry than before. "A good lord comforts and protects the weak and helpless," he told the Freys. "I will not have you making Hodor the butt of cruel jests, do you hear me? He's a goodhearted lad, dutiful and obedient, which is more than I can say for either of you." The maester wagged a finger at Little Walder. "And you will stay out of the godswood and away from those wolves, or answer for it." Sleeves flapping, he turned on his heels, stalked off a few paces, and glanced back. "Bran. Come. Lord Wyman awaits."

 

Bran tells Hodor to follow Luwin and they all walk together back to the Great Keep. Luwin lectures Bran on missing breakfast with his guests and tells him that he shouldn't have been down in the courtyard watching the tilting in the first place. Bran apologizes and Luwin does his best to be understanding.

 

Bran is placed in his father's chair and apologizes to Lord Wyman for being late. Wyman seems to be in a good mood and basically tells Bran that princes have the privilege of being able to show up whenever they want.

 

They get down to business and Manderly says that he wants confirmation for some new customs officers that he's appointed in White Harbor because the old ones were still paying tribute to King's Landing rather than King Robb. He says that Robb is going to need his own coinage and suggests having everything minted at White Harbor. Wyman also suggests having a fleet built for Robb so that they can take both Dragonstone and King's Landing.

 

Bran likes the idea of Robb getting his very own war fleet and wonders if a cripple has ever commanded a warship. Ser Rodrik promises to send Wyman's proposal to Robb for consideration.

 

Later on during lunch, Wyman asks after his cousin Lady Hornwood and thinks that he wouldn't mind marrying her now that she's a widow. He says she could even marry his son Wendel if she'd prefer a younger man. Bran doesn't care about marriages and starts to drift off during this conversation. He wishes that he could be down in the yard with the other boys.

 

Wyman discusses a letter he received from Tywin that tells him he can have his son Wylis returned to him if he vows to stop supporting Robb. Ser Rodrik asks if Wyman is going to refuse the offer and Wyman confirms that he will. At the same time, Wyman doesn't like the idea of Wylis being stuck at Harrenhal and talks about how he believes in the curse over the place.

 

Lady Hornwood and six of her men arrive at Winterfell during dinner. Bran greets her and tells her that he's sorry about the recent loss of her son and husband. Lady Hornwood's face has grief written all over it and she asks to be allowed some time to rest. Ser Rodrik is very courteous and tells her that they can all talk the next day. 

 

The following day they start out by discussing the harvest and how much food should be stored away. After this, Lady Hornwood brings up the fact that Roose Bolton's bastard is amassing men over at the Dreadfort. Lady Hornwood initially thought that he was getting men so that he could ride down to meet up with Roose at the Twins but that didn't happen. When she inquired about the bastard's intentions, he responded by saying that no Bolton will ever be questioned by a woman and makes it seem as though he's a trueborn son of Roose's instead of a bastard.

 

Ser Rodrik says that as far as he knows, Roose hasn't even acknowledged this bastard and says that he's personally never met the guy. Lady Hornwood says that few people know about Roose's bastard because he'd been living with his mother until two years ago. Once Roose's trueborn son Domeric died, Roose decided to bring his bastard home to the Dreadfort.

 

The boy is a sly creature by all accounts, and he has a servant who is almost as cruel as he is. Reek, they call the man. It's said he never bathes. They hunt together, the Bastard and this Reek, and not for deer. I've heard tales, things I can scarce believe, even of a Bolton. And now that my lord husband and my sweet son have gone to the gods, the Bastard looks at my lands hungrily."

 

Bran wants to give Lady Hornwood a hundred men to help defend her rights but Ser Rodrik says that she should be safe enough for now. Ser Rodrik advises Lady Hornwood to remarry and Lady Hornwood admits that men are more interested in marrying her now than when she was a young girl. She doesn't like any of the suitors who have presented themselves so far and says that she'll only marry again if Robb commands it.

 

Ser Rodrik is sympathetic to Lady Hornwood's plight and tells her that they'll help her find a husband who is more to her liking. Lady Hornwood flirts with Ser Rodrik here by telling him that he might not have to look very far for one.

 

Once Lady Hornwood leaves, Luwin smiles and tells Ser Rodrik that Lady Hornwood has a bit of a crush on him. The old knight has no reply and seems slightly embarrassed.

 

Bran thinks she looked sad and Ser Rodrik says that Lady Hornwood is a danger to the current peace enjoyed by the North. Bran doesn't understand so Luwin goes into details about how Lady Hornwood's lands are being contested by multiple Northern families and it seems that her neighbors the Boltons are now going to be added to the list.  

 

Ser Rodrik again brings up the idea of marriage to solve the Lady Hornwood problem so Bran asks him why he won't just marry Lady Hornwood. Bran mentions that Ser Rodrik has already confirmed that he thinks she's good looking and points out that she could be a maternal figure for his daughter Beth. Ser Rodrik thinks it's a sweet idea but feels that it wouldn't be ideal because of his age.

 

Bran next suggests making a Hornwood bastard the heir because it reminds him of Jon and Luwin says that they'll consider the idea even though Lady Hornwood is unlikely to be pleased if they end up going in that direction.

 

Bran asks to be excused and is happy that he still has some time left in his day to be able to spend with Summer in the godswood. While they're inside of the godswood they run into a naked Osha who's just been swimming in the pool by the heart tree. Bran stares at Osha's body and comments that she has a lot of scars. Osha replies that every one of her scars was hard earned.

 

Bran wonders if she's been fighting with giants and thinks to himself that he hopes he sees a giant one day. Osha tells him that they're scars from fighting men, usually men from the Night's Watch. Osha mentions that she once killed one of these men. As Bran watches Osha, he thinks that she looks softer than the woman she was when they first encountered each other.

 

Osha tells Bran that she's heard some gossip down in the kitchens about the clash Bran and Hodor had with the Frey boys and says that Little Walder in particular should be watched.

 

Osha asks Bran if he's had anymore of his wolf dreams and Bran unsuccessfully tries to lie that he hasn't. She tells him that a prince should be a better liar than he is. That evening Bran dreams of the weirwood and the three eyed crow.

 

The Umbers arrive at Winterfell and Bran receives them at breakfast the next day. The GreatJon's uncles are known as Crowfood and Whoresbane. Old Nan won't tell Bran how Whoresbane got his name. Crowfood wastes no time in asking for permission to marry Lady Hornwood.

 

The Umbers want ships and men to deal with the increasing problem of the wildlings so Ser Rodrik tells them that they should be able to work together with the Manderlys. After some grumbling about how fat Manderly is, the Umbers agree that they'll work their neighbors of White Harbor.

 

The Glovers arrive from Deepwood Motte and Bran soon realizes that it's the steward who's running the show over there rather than Lady Glover. Ser Rodrik commands the steward to start putting aside one-fifth of their harvest and questions the man about the Hornwood bastard who is being fostered there. It seems like the boy is bright and capable so once the steward is gone Maester Luwin tells Bran that his idea about solving the Hornwood problem this way might be the best solution after all. He tells Bran that he'll be a good Lord of Winterfell one day, but Bran says that he'll never be a lord because Robb will marry and have children.

 

Ser Rodrik tells Bran that he was married three times but only had daughters. His brother had four sons but only one survived into adulthood and that son, Jory, was slain down in King's Landing. He tells Bran that nothing in life is certain.

 

The next day Leobald Tallhart makes his play for the Hornwood lands by trotting out the idea that Lady Hornwood could foster one of his younger sons whose mother is a Hornwood. He even suggests that the boy could change his name to Hornwood if he'd be allowed to inherit. Bran tells Tallhart that they'll bring the matter to Robb and Lady Hornwood. When Tallhart looks at Bran, Bran can tell that the man feels pity for him and this makes him feel angry.

 

Bran, Maester Luwin, and Ser Rodrik continue to discuss what the best solution would be for the Lady Hornwood problem and Luwin seems to be leaning towards Tallhart. Luwin also suggests further cementing the alliance with the Riverlands by choosing one of the river lords and suggests possibly bringing the Freys into the mix. Bran says that Lady Hornwood can have one of the two Walders but Ser Rodrik is not amused by this suggestion.  

 

The lords and ladies who can't make it to the harvest send their regrets and give their reasons for why they can't show. Roose Bolton's bastard also sends notice that he won't be coming.

 

Lord Cerwyn is currently a Lannister hostage but Cerwyn's fourteen year old son Cley shows up at Winterfell accompanied by a dozen lances. Cley has always been friendly with the Stark kids and starts chatting with Bran. Cley asks if Stannis sent them the letter about the Lannister incest but Bran doesn't know what Cley is talking about. As Cley starts talking about how Joffrey is a product of incest and how incest is the reason the Targaryens were brought down, Bran suddenly starts to feel as though he can't breathe. The terror on his face is visible and Cley asks him if he's all right. He nearly faints but manages to pull himself together and basically tells Cley that Robb will beat Stannis too if that's what needs to be done.

 

Later that evening Bran prays that he'll have a dreamless sleep but he ends up having an intense nightmare that is worse than any of the wolf dreams he's had since his accident.

 

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. He was clinging to a tower miles high, and his fingers were slipping, nails scrabbling at the stone, his legs dragging him down, stupid useless dead legs. "Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

There's a lot in this chapter. 

 

I felt like the solution to the Hornwood situation was staring them in the face after they ended up going over everything. She likes Rodrik so why not have them marry and bring over the Hornwood bastard for Rodrik to help finish raising. Maybe even have him betrothed to Beth to maintain the loyalty of the Cassels when Rodrik dies. 

 

It made me laugh when the Umbers came roaring into Winterfell drunk and waking everyone up. 

 

Little Walder is a nasty piece of work already. He seems like he's going to grow up being horrible to everyone. Osha knows it too.

 

I like that Stannis' letter was the indirect cause for sparking Bran's memory about his fall. 

 

They don't seem to think it's a big deal that they haven't heard from Howland Reed.

 

Bran wondering if he'll ever see a giant makes me feel positive that he will at some point.  

 

The conversation about Bran possibly being the Lord of Winterfell one day is pretty eerie when we consider what happened. 

 

Wth with the steward at Deepwood Motte thinking that they won't need to harvest as much because of the claims of some religious fanatic. I liked how frustrated Maester Luwin was there. 

 

I like what a nice team Luwin and Rodrik make. I think they complement each other well. I've really become fond of both characters during the reread so it's going to be tough to read when everything starts to go to hell there. 

[Lady S.]

Bran notes that the two Walders both have shields that are quartered to include the sigils from their maternal side as well. Bran thinks to himself that Starks only need their direwolves.

This reminded me of Arya and Jon discussing Joffrey's Lannister/Baratheon arms. Arya's "the woman is important too!" is an important statement, but in this case I agree with Bran that the Freys are desperate for honor and prestige to include their mother's and their grandmother's sigils. But then I have more information than Bran does about the Freys being tacky social climbers trying to advance through marriage. 

 

This altercation with Hodor is the first clue of how bad Little Walder is, and soon after we first learn of his future role model and future nephew-through-marriage, Ramsay Snow. I guess Ser Rodrik thinking Lady Hornwood should be safe is his first blunder, even before the ironborn invasion. I think it's important to note here that Bran's role is ceremonial, and Luwin instructs him not to say anything unless spoken to. The problem isn't that there aren't adults in charge at Winterfell, it's that the adults in charge either aren't competent or make mistakes as required by the plot, because GRRM needs Winterfell to fall so Bran can go north and Robb can die as the King who Lost the North.

 

The Manderly and Umber meetings here also set up future stuff. In Dance, Manderly is building a secret navy, possibly with Umber wood, and Crowfood Umber is one of Stannis's northern allies, besieging Winterfell before Stannis can get there and helping Theon and Jeyne escape.

 

The ending of this chapter is very curious. Bloodraven suppressed the memory of how Bran was injured, but the knowledge is still there. Back in Game, Bloodraven said something about Bran not needing the memory now. I wonder if/when Bran will remember in the future.

ETA:

I felt like the solution to the Hornwood situation was staring them in the face after they ended up going over everything. She likes Rodrik so why not have them marry and bring over the Hornwood bastard for Rodrik to help finish raising. Maybe even have him betrothed to Beth to maintain the loyalty of the Cassels when Rodrik dies.

I don't think there are any other Cassels left and they don't seem to command any men of their own. Probably better to betroth the bastard to a daughter of the Tallharts or one of the others with a female-line claim, a big house would provide a lot more help in protecting the lands. Ser Rodrik appears to be afraid he'd die before the heir came of age, but I think he might be being overcautious, if he's fit to fight and command men now he should have survived awhile, and some action needed to be taken quickly in any case.

I wonder how independently Ramsay is acting at this point. For whatever reason, Roose trusted him enough to leave him in the charge at the Dreadfort. Did he leave instructions implying he wanted Ramsay to be on the lookout for land-grab opportunities? Either Ramsay expands their territory or he gets in trouble and loses his head, removing a problem for Roose while he has plausible deniability for Ramsay's wrongdoing. It's a win-win situation for Roose.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

Bran II

 

...Bran notes that the two Walders both have shields that are quartered to include the sigils from their maternal side as well. Bran thinks to himself that Starks only need their direwolves.

That's because the Starks aren't upjumped bridge trolls pretending to be noble.

By the Seven I hope Daenerys is to The Twins as Aegon was to Harrenhal.

[John Potts]

It's tragic really that Ser Rodrik doesn't marry Lady Hornwood because he thinks it would be too cruel to her to marry a (much?) older husband, in the light of who she does end up with.

 

Avaleigh He asks Little Walder if this is the way he behaves when he's at the Twins and the boy glares at Luwin replying that he does if he wants.

 

From what we learn of the Late Lord Frey, setting his many sons against each other is pretty much what Lord Frey lives for, so Walder was telling the truth there!

Edited December 29, 2015 by John Potts

[nodorothyparker]

There is a lot going on in this chapter that's very heavy on "here's all the players you're going to need to know about the North going forward."

 

I believe this is the first real discussion we get of Ramsey and original recipe Reek.  It's interesting to me that in a story where lineages go back thousands of years and everybody knows everything about everyone else's that Ramsey seems to have come of out nowhere and remains mostly an unknown.  The explanation for it is plausible enough with him being a relatively lowborn bastard, but I like George's setup here that we don't have just how awful Ramsey really is sprung on us all at once.  Right now it's a lot of hearsay and innuendo that's only going to grow from here on out.  I remember that I missed a lot of this in my original read and thus Ramsey kind of snuck up on me during Theon's failed conquest of Winterfell so it's nice to go back and see that all the groundwork for it really was laid out.

 

There's some interesting commentary on inheritance laws and how vulnerable they left women going on in all the discussion about the Lady Hornwood situation.  It does feel like someone should have more forcefully pressed finding a resolution instead of dithering around and waiting for Robb given how we know it turned out.

 

The Freys really are nasty little climbers all the way down to every last son, grandson, nephew, or cousin.

Edited December 29, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

This was a long chapter with a lot being set up for the future.

 

I had forgotten that Bran wanted to send 100 men to help Lady Hornwood.  It's a tragedy that Ser Rodrik (who definitely should have married her) shot it down.

 

There is some humor in this chapter though.  Bran thinking that Old Nan refuses to tell him why that Umber is called Whoresbane is one and I laughed at Bran's suggestion that Lady Hornwood can have one of the Walders as a husband.  Who said the Starks can't be funny?

 

It's interesting how Ramsay's introduction is relatively low-key when he's about to explode on the scene in a major way.

Edited December 29, 2015 by benteen

[vibeology]

What a great chapter! I love how all the Northern main players are setup in this chapter in a way that never feels like a huge exposition dump. I think George does a truly wonderful job introducing us to the big conflicts that are coming without pointing huge arrows at any of them.

 

Lady Hornwood's story is especially tragic. I love that Bran's instinct is to help her. I with Rodrik had married her. It might not have saved her claim, but it might have saved her life. (Maybe not considering what's to come.) I love that its a bad situation with no great solutions. I think part of growing up is coming to understand that not every situation comes with a solution. Bran sees here that as much as he wants to do the right thing for her, its not at all clear what that thing is. Marry her to someone looking for land? Which claimant? Who do you piss off? Legitimize the bastard? Well, how is that fair to her? Who gets to claim him as a ward? Its a complicated situation and I don't think Luwin and Rodrik are wrong to want to wait for Robb. They need all those men; who do you say no to? 

 

As for Little Walder, yikes. He is a Frey through and through. He's a pretty awful person and while he's still a child, its very clear that he's spoiled, rotten and generally horrible. Still, like with the way all the other threats are first brought up this chapter, I do think Big Walder is the real problem. He's better at playing the game. He's just as cruel to Hodor but has the sense to act contrite when caught.

I'm of the opinion that Big Walder kills Little Walder to move up the Frey line but because he's the better behaved cousin, takes advantage of the ghost of Winterfell circumstances and not as influenced by Ramsay, people don't look as closely at him.

 

 

As for Ramsay, that's just really good writing. George starts dropping those hints and rumours early but it seems unlikely that the "Bastard" is actually hunting people because we've seen with Jon how the society looks as bastards and I at least assumed that she was letting her biases rule her. So when he does show up and is actually a people hunting mad man, we can't say we weren't warned, but who would believe it. Luwin and Rodrik don't and we trust them as the adult authorities in this story.

 

 

I like what a nice team Luwin and Rodrik make. I think they complement each other well. I've really become fond of both characters during the reread so it's going to be tough to read when everything starts to go to hell there. 

 

I love them too. I think both characters are so rich and interesting. They are both totally believable as older guys who have always had some authority thrust into a position where they have to do more and do the very best they can. I never think they're nervous or unsure, but its clear that neither expected this to happen and they are doing their very best despite it being a bad situation.

[Avaleigh]

I'm on the fence as to how horrible Big Walder is at the end of the day. Is he better at playing the game or is he just not as bad of a person as his cousin? It must be significant that he wasn't as interested in being taken under Ramsay's wing. 

 

Tyrion is up next. 

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion IV

 

Tyrion is having breakfast with Grand Maester Pycelle and he asks Pycelle to send away the serving girl so that they can speak privately. Once they are alone, Tyrion tells Pycelle that he has two copies of a letter that he wants to have sent to Prince Doran Martell down in Dorne. Tyrion says that the matter is extremely important and won't even let Pycelle finish his breakfast before having them sent.

 

As Pycelle goes to leave, Tyrion notices that the Grand Maester's chain is more elaborate and has more gold, silver, and platinum in it in comparison to the chains of other maesters.

 

While Pycelle is gone, Tyrion looks through his medicines and potions and ends up stealing one of them.

 

When the Grand Maester returns he's super curious about what was in the letter and tries to fish for answers, but Tyrion isn't going for it. When Pycelle mentions Cersei, Tyrion claims that Cersei has enough to worry about and that he doesn't want to add to her troubles. He stares at Pycelle until the man looks away and Tyrion thinks that there's something about his mismatched eyes that makes men feel uncomfortable.

 

Tyrion instructs Pycelle to inform him once they receive a reply from Dorne and specifies that he's the only person who should be informed. Pycelle starts nervously grabbing his beard but agrees to do as Tyrion says.

 

After breakfast, Tyrion meets up with Bronn and notes that Bronn is looking pretty respectable these days. He's even started shaving and washing his hair.

 

Bronn informs Tyrion that Lady Tanda has another invitation for him to join her for dinner. Tyrion has no interest because he knows that Lady Tanda only wants to throw her unmarried daughter at him and he isn't interested because the girl is unattractive and dimwitted on top of that.

 

Tyrion asks about who else needs to see him and Bronn mentions that there's a guy from Braavos who wants to speak to the King about some money that was lent. Tyrion instructs Bronn to have the man sent to Littlefinger knowing that Littlefinger will think of some way to put the guy off.

 

There's also a lord from the Riverlands who has come to King's Landing because Lannister men raped his wife, burned his keep, and killed all of his peasants. The river lord has come to King's Landing to show his loyalty and to get some sort of recompense. Tyrion gives instructions to have the man given a nice room, food, and new shoes, and says that he intends to speak with him the next day. He thinks that it could be useful to have someone from the Riverlands who is on their side.

 

The other men who are waiting to speak with Tyrion are butchers, bakers, and grocers who feel that their personal safety is in jeopardy because of the severe food shortage. The castle and the garrison are getting almost all of the food that's coming in so prices have skyrocketed in the city, and one baker was actually roasted in his own oven by the mob for having such high prices.

 

Tyrion says that he can give them some gold cloaks for protection but Bronn says the men are claiming that the gold cloaks were part of the mob who murdered the baker. The men want to speak to Joffrey and Tyrion is almost tempted to allow it, but ultimately decides not to go there. He tells Bronn to tell the men that Joffrey shares their concerns and is doing all he can.

 

Ser Alliser Thorne is also in King's Landing and he's brought a rotting hand in a jar with him. Tyrion remembers that he didn't get on with Thorne at the Wall and gives instructions for the brother of the Night's Watch to be taken to a foul smelling cell where he can wait until further notice.

 

Near the main gate, Tyrion runs into Cersei who is about to ride out along with a party of others including her new favorite Lancel Lannister. Tyrion asks his sister what she's up to and she tells him that she's checking on the city's defenses, making it seem like she's the only one who cares about the fact that Renly appears to be headed in their general direction with a host of one hundred thousand men. Tyrion thinks that Renly is smart to take a leisurely pace towards taking King's Landing and says it's what he would do if he were in Renly's position.

 

Cersei wants Tyrion to get their father to bring his army to King's Landing. She also wants to know when Tyrion is going to have Jaime freed. When Cersei doesn't get the answers she wants, she tells Tyrion that he's worse than useless before riding away on her palfrey.

 

Tyrion thinks about how Stannis is the bigger threat in comparison to Renly and wishes that his spies would give word of what's going on at Dragonstone. He knows that if the Baratheon brothers team up that his head will likely end up on a spike next to Joffrey's.

 

Littlefinger is waiting for Tyrion in his solar and the two men spend some time at the window watching Joffrey get all frustrated over the fact that he's unable to kill any rabbits with his crossbow. There's a moment where even one of the rabbits seems amused by Joffrey's lack of skill.

 

Tyrion asks Littlefinger if he'd like any sort of refreshment and Littlefinger declines saying that he doesn't want to end up on the Wall for accepting a drink from Tyrion. Tyrion doesn't respond to the dig about Slynt and thinks to himself that he doesn't have the Wall in mind for Littlefinger anyway.

 

Tyrion compliments Littlefinger on The Dagger in his possession and there's a pointed moment where Tyrion thinks about how Littlefinger now knows that he knows the truth. Tyrion is annoyed that Littlefinger still seems to feel that he's untouchable.

 

If ever truly a man had armored himself in gold, it was Petyr Baelish, not Jaime Lannister. Jaime's famous armor was but gilded steel, but Littlefinger, ah . . . Tyrion had learned a few things about sweet Petyr, to his growing disquiet.

 

Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him a minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king's other collectors. King Robert had been a prodigious spender. A man like Petyr Baelish, who had a gift for rubbing two golden dragons together to breed a third, was invaluable to his Hand. Littlefinger's rise had been arrow-swift. Within three years of his coming to court, he was master of coin and a member of the small council, and today the crown's revenues were ten times what they had been under his beleaguered predecessor . . . though the crown's debts had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.

 

Littlefinger has successfully put his own men into place all over the castle and city and no one thinks to question his appointments because he seems harmless and is usually smiling and joking. Tyrion wonders if he should risk touching him.

 

Down in the courtyard, Joffrey finally manages to kill a rabbit.

 

Tyrion asks Littlefinger about the period where he was fostered at Riverrun and Littlefinger claims to have taken the maidenheads of both Tully sisters. Tyrion thinks that Petyr is lying but isn't entirely sure. He tells Littlefinger that he wants him to talk to Lysa Arryn and get her to pledge fealty to Joffrey. The idea is that the men of the Vale would then help to fight against either Renly or Stannis. Tyrion proposes that Robert Arryn would be made Warden of the East while Myrcella would be made a ward of the Eyrie before eventually marrying Robert.

 

Littlefinger is truly surprised with the proposal and quickly deduces that Cersei isn't in on the plan. He tells Tyrion that he could talk to Lysa and follows that up by asking what's in it for him. Tyrion offers Littlefinger Harrenhal and while Petyr tries to act like he isn't tempted by the offer, Tyrion knows that he has the master of coin on the hook when he goes on to explain that he'd also be making him Lord of the Trident.

 

Littlefinger brings up the fact that Janos Slynt was recently granted Harrenhal only to have it taken away shortly afterwards. Tyrion replies that he didn't need Janos but he does need Littlefinger. 

 

After telling Tyrion that he's probably going to have to have sex with Lysa in order to get her to consent, Littlefinger brings up how he once told Ned Stark what the best course of action is for a man to take if he finds himself in bed with an ugly woman. He asks for a fortnight to get his affairs in order before he'll head to the Vale by ship. 

 

When Varys and Tyrion meetup later in the evening, Varys jokingly chides Tyrion for deliberately making Pycelle squirm. 

 

Varys and Tyrion discuss why the Martells hate the Lannisters and how Gregor Clegane was the one who was said to have murdered Elia and her baby son. Tyrion promises Doran that he'll deliver Elia's killers in addition to allowing the Martells to foster Prince Tommen over at Sunspear.

 

Tyrion says that Tommen might actually be able to grow up to be a good man if he can be taken away from Cersei and Joffrey. This makes Varys wonder if Tyrion thinks that Tommen will make a good king as well but Tyrion insists that Joffrey is King. Varys points out how much nicer it would be to have a king with Tommen's nature and this makes Tyrion comment on what a suspicious mind Varys has. Varys replies that he'll take that as a compliment.

 

Varys thinks that the plan could work but says that Tyrion is going to have to figure out how to deal with the problem of Cersei. He thinks Cersei could just about deal with parting with one of her two younger children but not both. Tyrion replies that what Cersei doesn't know won't hurt him, so Varys asks what he plans on doing if Cersei finds out.

 

Tyrion replies that whoever tells Cersei of his plans will have revealed himself to be his enemy. This makes Varys giggle and Tyrion thinks that he has Varys where he wants him now, just as he has Littlefinger and Pycelle. 

[Avaleigh]

Even though we don't have much happen plot wise, I feel like this chapter gave us a lot of info just as the previous Bran chapter did. There's a lot of nice setup and I like seeing good/reasonably decent people sometimes making mistakes or even being flat out wrong. 

 

Tyrion's treatment of Thorne for example. Tyrion is letting his personal feelings get in the way of his duty as Hand of the King to the Night's Watch. If Yoren or Jeor or Jon had been the brother that was sent to King's Landing then Tyrion would have made time for him. I don't think there's anything wrong with Thorne getting a crap cell to stay in but I was disappointed that Tyrion didn't even give an indication as to when or if he'd find the time to see him especially since he's seen the condition that the Night's Watch is in for himself. 

 

I also feel bad that Tyrion is giving Thorne this reception because the only reason Jeor sent Thorne is because he thought that he had the respect and connections that he'd be taken seriously. Jeor wasn't to know that Tyrion would be Hand by the time Thorne made it down there. 

 

I was also surprised to see Tyrion's attitude towards the food situation in King's Landing. For some reason I thought he did a lot more and that the people were just being ungrateful but I see now from this chapter that there's more that they could have done. For one thing, it's surprising to me that the people in the castle aren't making reforms to their own lifestyles. Even if it's just for show, some effort should be made to get more of the food that is coming in to the smallfolk. If Lady Tanda can still afford to easily have these sumptuous feasts in order to tempt Tyrion then clearly something is wrong. 

 

Meanwhile, you have a slimy jerk like Pycelle keeping a spare table out of consideration for the common people and Tyrion being resentful over it wondering why Pycelle doesn't at least have butter and honey. Tyrion can be pretty insensitive at times and I felt like I noticed it here. 

 

Not only that but the way he tells the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker grocer that Joffrey is going to handle it just smacked of insincerity and I'm sure that the men must have felt it. 

 

Knowing that the gold cloaks are sometimes part of the mob makes it seem like the small council isn't even in full control of their own guards.

 

It's pretty dangerous and crazy that Tyrion knows that Littlefinger tried to basically frame him and he doesn't really feel there's anything he can do about it. 

 

Cersei acting like she's the only one who cares about the city's defense is rich, I agree, but at the same time, Tyrion doesn't keep her informed of what he's doing to help keep them safe so what is she supposed to think? You have to wonder though what goes on in her head that she thinks she can get Tyrion to succeed with Tywin where she's clearly failed. She must have some regard for Tyrion's skill or she wouldn't bother asking. Same when she asked him about Jaime. She has such contempt for Tyrion but then she seems to think that he should be totally capable in doing things that she herself is unable to accomplish. 

 

My two what ifs for this chapter are what if Tommen had been sent to be a playmate of Trystane's and Myrcella had ended up at the Vale? How would this have impacted Petyr's plan with eventually bringing Sansa to the Vale? Obviously Myrcella would have recognized Sansa and Littlefinger wouldn't have been able to float the idea of a Sansa/Robert union to Lysa. I can't decide what Littlefinger would have done with Myrcella in a set up like this since she'd be pretty valuable to him. She just doesn't have the sentimental factor that Sansa has over him.

 

I like that Varys is ahead of everyone else in terms of 'Let's just go with Tommen.' 

 

I also liked Joffrey's incompetence with his crossbow. Is this kid good at anything other than insulting people?