The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[Avaleigh]

I don't think Theon would ever do that.  He's driven by a desire for his family's approval.

If Theon had been given the option prior to the last chapter, I'd agree but I get the impression that he wants to be king without having to work for it. He wants it to be handed to him and thinks it's his right and the easiest way to do that would be to get the big three out of the way. I think if it were put to him directly 'Here's the gift of a Faceless Man with three kills that have already been paid for. All you have to do is say the names and the Faceless Man will do the rest.' I totally think he'd pick Asha first just to see if it was the real deal and after that I don't think he'd hesitate at trying to take the Seastone Chair for himself. The only thing I'm not totally sure of is if he'd see Euron or Victarion as the bigger threat. I guessed Euron because of what we know of the character but Theon doesn't seem to know all that much about him. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Renly insulted Shireen again in that chapter?  What an ass.  The fact that he would talk that way about his harmless niece to me reveals his true character.

 

This chapter reminds me that Catelyn may have crossed paths with more characters than anyone.  She meets with Renly and meets Maegarey and Brienne in the last chapter.  Here she meets Stannis and Melisandre.  Randyll Tarly too.

 

I can imagine Renly's alliance with the Lord that almost starved Storm's End had to infuriate Stannis.

 

I've said this before...despite their significant character flaws and weaknesses, a combination of Stannis and Renly as King and Hand would have been a perfect combination.  Stannis could have focused on defending the Realm and the day-to-day governance while Renly would have been a great public face and diplomat.  Stannis never would have agreed to bend the knee to his brother (and quite frankly shouldn't have to) so I can never picture him being the Hand under King Renly.  But still...King Stannis and Hand of the King Renly or vice versa?

Edited February 20, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Renly is so arrogant it took my breath away at times. I was glad that Catelyn had a little snark to serve him because he doesn't seem to appreciate how serious the situation is or how devastating war is in general. The comment about how Robb has won a few battles but how Renly is going to be the one to win the war made me feel less sorry for him that he's going to find out that it isn't that easy. I also didn't care for the way he's forcing Cat to stay so that she can see the battle. 

 

Stannis isn't much better. Telling Catelyn that he'll return her daughters to her but doesn't seem to care if they'll be dead or alive. Treating Robb like he's the equivalent of the Lannisters without appreciating any of the reasons why Robb felt pushed to find his own way of seeking justice. Neither Baratheon brother is giving Robb a reason to work with them. Stannis has clearly never heard the phrase beggars can't be choosers. This guy talks about how Ned wasn't his friend when it's obvious that Stannis doesn't have the slightest idea how to go about making friends. 

 

The best what if for me in this chapter is wondering what would have happened if they'd gone with Rowan's plan to just let Stannis carry on with his siege while they take King's Landing while it's weak. 

 

I knew that Renly had some prickish tendencies but he really does come across like a jerk here and I'm not convinced that he would have been a good king longterm. On paper I can see a Renly/Stannis combo working but in practice I feel like both would have to be willing to listen to the other in a situation like that and both are so stubborn that I can see it not really going well after a few months even if they were to come to some sort of initial arrangement where Stannis is Hand and agrees to give up his claim. Renly seems like he'd be more inclined to side with Littlefinger in terms of issues like brothels and I'm not sure how Renly would handle the influence of Melisandre if she started upsetting the Faith. I can also see Stannis having issues with Renly's sexuality. I can also see them clashing over his tendency to give positions to his favorites as opposed to who might be best qualified for the job. 

[benteen]

You're right, a Stannis/Renly partnership would depend on the two of them actually listening to each other and cooperating, which is why it's an absolute pipe dream.

 

It's interesting how Stannis always said Ned wasn't his friend.  Like you said, Avaleigh, Stannis wouldn't know what a friend is.  The person who likes him the best is a guy he cut the fingertips off of.  But while Stannis didn't like Ned, Ned had the utmost respect for him and was hellbent on crowning him King of Westeros to the point where he altered his best friend's dying wish.  Ned had too much regard for Stannis in the end.

 

A Stannis/Robb partnership would have been fascinating.  They would have been unbeatable on the battlefield but if Stannis tried to push the Red God on the North, it would have blown up in his face.

Edited February 20, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

Gods, Stannis really can't ever let anything go.  I love that very nearly the first words out of his mouth are about how Ned was Robert's friend instead of his, followed by a further list of grudges.  He has absolutely no appreciation here that Ned lost his head arguing for his claim to the throne.

 

I also quite enjoy the sniping between the brothers, especially Stannis's line that Margaery's likely to stay a virgin in Renly's bed and Renly's speech about no one nowhere wanting Stannis as a king.  Renly is just unbelievable here for someone who has yet to make a single move toward actual battle and Stannis isn't even making any pretense about trying to be reasonable.  You can just feel Catelyn's frustration that this entire thing is going on and they're set to destroy each other while her teenage son is fighting real battles without allies. She's not wrong in comparing them to petulant children.

[Avaleigh]

Show Stannis seemed to have a bit more respect for Ned supporting his claim to the throne. 

 

The other thing that stands out to me is just how obvious the relationship is with Loras knowing what we know from future books. The line about the praying and then Loras asking for a knight to ride with him so that the rose and stag can ride side by side. I'm surprised they didn't start making out right then and there. Oh and the moment where Renly is deciding who will lead the van? Renly might as well have been Scarlett O'Hara at the Twelve Oaks BBQ choosing which one of her beaux would be allowed to fetch her dessert. When I think of the way Tyrion felt when Tywin "honored" him with the position of leading the van I can't help but be amused. 

 

Also, was Randyll Tarly really not singled out for an important position the way that the other high ranking guys were? That seems odd.

 

Another moment that stood out to me was with Robar Royce. This guy is 21 and he's already burned out on tourneys like it's been ages and ages? 

[Lady S.]

 

Also, was Randyll Tarly really not singled out for an important position the way that the other high ranking guys were? That seems odd.

As with the Barristan/LC Kingsguard issue, Loras was deemed most worthy of honor over a known and experienced soldier. With decisions like this and taking Dorne's support for granted I really have no confidence in Renly's abilities as a king. His death was no great loss and actually saved a lot of long term trouble because anyone with a huge enough army being able to take whatever they want is a terrible precedent that would only lead to more wars.

 

Renly insulted Shireen again in that chapter?  What an ass.  The fact that he would talk that way about his harmless niece to me reveals his true character.

 

I can imagine Renly's alliance with the Lord that never starve King's Landing had to infuriate Stannis.

Yep, and his denial of the twincest only makes me more certain he already knew about it. Anyone who knew Stannis at all would know it's not in his characters to make up shit like that to steal the throne. Between the Lannisters' story and Stan's it should be obvious which cuckolding was more likely. Renly shouldn't have to wonder to Catelyn, someone he barely knows, if his own rigidly lawful brother is telling the truth. He needed to see if she and Robb cared about the rightful claim the way Ned would and since she did care, he decided to hold her prisoner during the battle to show he could kill Stannis and Robb. Renly's attitude toward the Starks annoys me even more than Stannis's because I think he's more of a hypocrite about it. It's not generous and friendly to belittle Robb's victories, offer an empty title with veiled threats, and then refuse to let Catelyn leave, and Robb is the only king who actually became one by popular acclaim and the only one who'd done anything to defend the realm from the Lannisters.

 

Yes, I've always thought Renly being more loyal to the lord who starved Storm's End than to his own family must have been particularly galling for Stannis. People forgive their enemies and become their allies but is anyone as chummy with people who tried to destroy their family as Renly with Mace Tyrell?

[Avaleigh]

Renly's comments about the incest were interesting. I agree that he knew well before Stannis sent that letter. He just doesn't think Cersei's kids are relevant because either way he isn't first in line. I agree with your point too that he was sort of testing the waters to see if the Starks would care.

 

I wonder if some part of Renly was concerned about his own life if Stannis were to end up in charge. Would Stannis as king have done anything to try to prevent his relationship with Loras for example? Renly doesn't cite anything like this as a concern but then he can't exactly bring that issue up.

 

Renly seems so confident that he'll be able to get Margaery pregnant it brings me back to whether or not they ever consummated their marriage since they had more than enough time and no reason not to. 

 

Margaery is one of those characters that we know so much more about on the show. If book Margaery really is as innocent as she claims to be then it's puzzling why the show has gone completely in the other direction. The biggest difference between show Margaery and book Margaery is her role in Joffrey's death and being okay with throwing Sansa under the bus. That was one of the main things that indicated to me that Margaery isn't necessarily as innocent as she seems. At the same time she's so much younger in the books I can't really see her getting up to all that much. 

 

Good point about how it much rankle Stannis that Renly is so tight with the Tyrells. 

[benteen]

As with the Barristan/LC Kingsguard issue, Loras was deemed most worthy of honor over a known and experienced soldier. With decisions like this and taking Dorne's support for granted I really have no confidence in Renly's abilities as a king. His death was no great loss and actually saved a lot of long term trouble because anyone with a huge enough army being able to take whatever they want is a terrible precedent that would only lead to more wars.

 

Yep, and his denial of the twincest only makes me more certain he already knew about it. Anyone who knew Stannis at all would know it's not in his characters to make up shit like that to steal the throne. Between the Lannisters' story and Stan's it should be obvious which cuckolding was more likely. Renly shouldn't have to wonder to Catelyn, someone he barely knows, if his own rigidly lawful brother is telling the truth. He needed to see if she and Robb cared about the rightful claim the way Ned would and since she did care, he decided to hold her prisoner during the battle to show he could kill Stannis and Robb. Renly's attitude toward the Starks annoys me even more than Stannis's because I think he's more of a hypocrite about it. It's not generous and friendly to belittle Robb's victories, offer an empty title with veiled threats, and then refuse to let Catelyn leave, and Robb is the only king who actually became one by popular acclaim and the only one who'd done anything to defend the realm from the Lannisters.

 

Yes, I've always thought Renly being more loyal to the lord who starved Storm's End than to his own family must have been particularly galling for Stannis. People forgive their enemies and become their allies but is anyone as chummy with people who tried to destroy their family as Renly with Mace Tyrell?

 

Oof, I just realized I completely wrote that wrong.  The family that tried to starve them at Storm’s End that should have been.

 

Stannis is ridiculous when it comes to holding grudges and not letting things go.  But I can definitely understand how dealing with the Tyrells would be a tough one for him and had to be galling to see Renly get into bed with them, both literally and figuratively.  Renly would have been a boy during the Siege of Storm’s End and he nearly would have starved to death.

 

Slightly off-topic for the moment but on the Siege of Storm’s End, I believe Davos states in this book that he never met King Robert.  I always found that bizarre.  Robert’s “I don’t give a shit” attitude was so great that he never wanted to meet the man who kept his home from starving?  Davos the smuggler seems like someone he would have wanted to meet.

Edited February 20, 2016 by benteen

[Lady S.]

I wonder if some part of Renly was concerned about his own life if Stannis were to end up in charge. Would Stannis as king have done anything to try to prevent his relationship with Loras for example? Renly doesn't cite anything like this as a concern but then he can't exactly bring that issue up.

Eh, Renly wouldn't be upfront about it, but what about Stannis? He does make reference to Renly's sexual inclinations but why not be blunt about which Tyrell Renly prefers in his bed? He's probably not onboard with Renly/Loras as a couple but if he really cared about breaking them up I don't think he'd beat around the bush about it. Stannis is not one for tact or trying to hide his true feelings. He calls Renly a traitor, thief, or usurper at every opportunity and needlessly complains about Ned Stark to Ned's widow. Renly is so casual about battle as a foregone conclusion that he doesn't seem concerned about it, including killing his brother.

 

Slightly off-topic for the moment but on the Siege of Storm’s End, I believe Davos states in this book that he never met King Robert.  I always found that bizarre.  Robert’s “I don’t give a shit” attitude was so great that he never wanted to meet the man who kept his home from starving?  Davos the smuggler seems like someone he would have wanted to meet.

I don't think so, Davos mentions Robert attending a feast on Dragonstone in Dance.

 

I liked getting all the backstory of the legend of the building of Storm's End. It certainly sounds impregnable so I think Mathis Rowan was right that they didn't need to defend it from Stannis. Rowan comes across as more sensible and less of an ass kisser than the others.

 

I think this chapter also answers the question of whether Renly knew about Brienne's crush. If Catelyn figured it out that easily and her devotion was sniggered about by other knights, then I'm sure Renly understood it too.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Lady S.

[nodorothyparker]

Margaery is one of those characters that we know so much more about on the show. If book Margaery really is as innocent as she claims to be then it's puzzling why the show has gone completely in the other direction. The biggest difference between show Margaery and book Margaery is her role in Joffrey's death and being okay with throwing Sansa under the bus. That was one of the main things that indicated to me that Margaery isn't necessarily as innocent as she seems. At the same time she's so much younger in the books I can't really see her getting up to all that much. 

 

Margaery is such a nonentity as a character throughout this book and the next right up through her wedding to Joffrey.  She's more of a name and placeholder than an actual person we really know much of anything about, and even then she's almost something of a running joke about how many times can a character be married to king claimants and still be a virgin bride.  But I can understand why the show had to make her something else once they cast Natalie Dormer to play the role.

 

Margaery has the same problem as Brienne here.  In the books, they're teenagers defined at least in part by their real or perceived innocence but on the show they're played by women in their 30s where it would be tough to make that at all believable.  So they drop it and play up the rest of their characters.  Brienne has more to work with, being a warrior in her own right and an actual storyline in SOS.  Margaery doesn't have as much to go on except for the implied scheming to be queen and whatever Cersei is convinced she's up to.

 

I always imagine the twincest was probably a pretty open secret at court, so Renly would have known.  But then I think back to the whole convoluted story of Ned tracking Jon Arryn and Stannis as they tracked down Robert's bastards as confirmation and how Jon was killed to stop him from revealing it and I don't know. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Holmbo]

I wonder what Renly's reaction would have been if there had been a battle and Loras was killed. Considering how dangerous the vanguard is. You'd think that he'd be a bit more careful with his lovers life. I guess he was still romanticizing the idea of battle just as Loras and Brienne and didn't really consider the possible consequences.

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I think Renly and Loras are both pretty deep in their summer knight fantasies. Loras would probably interpret any concern for his safety as Renly casting doubt on his abilities as a knight. Renly is so certain of his victory over Stannis that he doesn't even seem to be considering possible casualties on his own side. That's another reason I'm not sorry about Renly's imminent murder, his death prevented a battle that never should have happened anyway. He felt the need to demolish his brother's army and waste some of his own strength all for the sake of pride and vanity.

 

I feel like, as far as the pretender kings go, only Balon Greyjoy's idiotic choices are worse than the Baratheon brothers fighting each other instead of the Lannisters. There's something pretty messed up about Renly taking his sweet time getting to King's Landing but hauling ass to face Stannis even though Storm's End was in no real danger. Catelyn was more right than she knew about Cersei laughing at them since Cersei was happy enough to embrace Tyrion and twirl him around.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Lady S.

[John Potts]

Renly strikes me like (at risk of offending some readers here) like George Bush's America: I decide who's best as King because... well I've got the biggest army, so that settles it! It's not like he's put it to a vote (even of the Lords of the Seven Kingdoms, which in Medieval terms would be like the Holy Roman Empire). It's not like the Baratheons are a well established dynasty, since Robert was himself a usurper (with a splash of royal blood). Both Dorne and the North are ruled by former Kings (as our some of the other Houses - I forget which are still royal descendants rather than established post conquest), so in royal terms, if you're abandoning strict primo geniture, there's no real grounds (except pure self interest) for barring them too.

[Avaleigh]

Sansa III

 

The Hound is telling Sansa that the longer she keeps Joffrey waiting the worse their eventual meeting will be. She's hurrying to get dressed but she's nervous and her hands are fumbling. She tries to make herself look pretty for Joffrey and wonders if he's somehow found out about her meetings with Ser Dontos.

 

Once they start walking down to see Joffrey, Sansa asks the Hound what she's done wrong and he informs her that it isn't about what she's done but what her kingly brother has done.

 

Sansa robotically replies that Robb is a traitor and prays to the gods that Jaime Lannister hasn't been killed because she's sure it will mean her life. She thinks of how pitiless Ser Ilyn Payne is. The Hound comments on how well Sansa has been trained.

 

As the Hound is escorting Sansa through the crowd they pass a dying cat that has been pierced with a crossbow. Sansa has to step around it and feels sick as she does so. Ser Dontos whispers to her to be brave.

 

Joffrey is standing with Boros Blount and Meryn Trant and this alone makes Sansa's stomach start turning into knots. She falls to her knees in front of Joffrey but he tells her that kneeling won't save her now. He tells her to stand so that she can answer for her brothers latest treasons. Sansa tries to defend herself and says that she has nothing to do with whatever Robb has done but Joffrey interrupts her and forces the Hound to pull her to her feet.

 

Joffrey commands Lancel to tell Sansa of Robb's latest victory against Ser Stafford Lannister. Lancel looks at Sansa without pity in his eyes and tells her that Robb used sorcery and that thousands of men were killed in their sleep by Robb and his men. Lancel claims that the northmen ate the bodies of the men they killed.

 

Sansa is silent and Joffrey asks her if she has anything to say. He tells her that Starks are as unnatural as their direwolves and tells her that he hasn't forgotten about the time he was attacked. Sansa clarifies that it was Arya's wolf Nymeria that attacked him but he ended up killing her wolf Lady anyway.

 

Joffrey corrects Sansa and tells her that it was actually Ned who killed Lady and then he of course killed Ned. He says that he wishes that he'd killed Ned himself and shares with Sansa that he killed a man last night who was even bigger than her father was. Apparently the man was a loud member of a crowd of people who were begging at the gates for food.

 

Joffrey tells Sansa that he'd shoot her too if he could but says that he can't because his mother says that they'll kill his uncle Jaime if he does. He says that Sansa is going to be beaten instead so that Robb can find out what's going to happen if he doesn't yield. He first commands the Hound to beat her but he doesn't move.

 

Ser Dontos tries to jump in and asks to be allowed to beat Sansa. He uses a melon on a stick playfully hit her and when other people start laughing, Sansa prays that Joffrey will find it amusing. He isn't amused in the slightest and commands Boros and Meryn to handle it. Joffrey instructs them not to hit her in the face because he prefers her being pretty.

 

Boros punches her in the stomach so hard that she's breathless and then proceeds to beat her with the flat of his sword blade until she's screaming and in tears. She soon loses count of how many times he strikes her.

 

She hears the Hound telling Boros that he's hit her enough but Joffrey insists that it isn't enough. He commands Boros to make her naked, so Boros strips her down to the waist and obeys the command to beat her bloody. Some of the crowd actually laugh as this is happening.

 

Tyrion suddenly comes in and wants to know what the hell is going on. He asks Boros if this is his idea of knightly chivalry and Boros replies that he's simply following King Joffrey's orders. Tyrion asks someone to give Sansa something to cover herself with so the Hound tosses her his cloak.

 

Tyrion tells Joffrey that Sansa is to be his queen and asks him if he has any regard for her honor. Joffrey says that he was punishing Sansa for having the blood of a wolf and Tyrion replies that Sansa isn't responsible for what her brother does and tells Joffrey that he has the wits of a goose.

 

Joffrey says that Tyrion isn't allowed to talk to him that way and says that a king may do as he likes. Tyrion says that Aerys Targaryen was another king who always did as he liked. He asks Joffrey if his mother ever told him what became of Aerys. Boros gets all huffy and says that no man is allowed to get away with threatening the King in front of the Kingsguard. Tyrion replies that rather than threatening the King, he's actually in the process of educating his nephew. He orders Bronn and Timett to kill Boros if he speaks again. He tells Boros that this is an example of a threat. Boros tells Tyrion that he's going to inform Cersei and Tyrion asks why they shouldn't call her now so that she can see for herself what's going on.

 

Joffrey is suddenly flushed and silent and Tyrion takes advantage of this to tell his nephew that he needs to listen more and speak less if he doesn't want his reign to turn out to be super short. He tells Joffrey that brutality isn't the way to win the love of his people or his queen.

 

Joffrey says that his mother says that fear is better to have than love. He points to how Sansa fears him and this makes Tyrion sighs and comment that it's too bad Stannis and Renly aren't twelve year old girls.

 

Tyrion asks Bronn and Timett to bring her to the Tower of the Hand. Sansa hasn't been in the Tower of the Hand since her father was still alive and she feels faint as she starts walking up the stairs. Some servants help her get cleaned up and do their best to try to soothe her.

 

As they scrubbed her down with soap and sluiced warm water over her head, all she could see were the faces from the bailey. Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound . . . the Hound hated knights . . . I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

 

A maester comes in to care for her wounds and he gives her some dreamwine once he's finished. He tells her that when she wakes up it will all seem like a bad dream. Sansa knows this isn't true and thinks the maester is stupid for saying so.

 

When Sansa wakes up she realizes that she's in Arya's old bedroom. She leaves her room and sees that she's being guarded by a woman wearing a necklace made of human ears. Sansa says that she wants to go to the godswood but her guard tells her that Tyrion gave instructions that she's not to leave. She says the gods will still hear Sansa praying from the Tower of the Hand.

 

The servants bring Sansa some food but she isn't hungry. She's sitting there nibbling lightly when Tyrion comes in and asks if he's disturbing her. She asks Tyrion if she's his prisoner and he clarifies that she's his guest and he was hoping they'd be able to talk. He asks if the food and clothes are to her satisfaction and tells her that she only has to ask if there's anything else she needs.

 

Sansa tells Tyrion that he's being kind and tells him that it was good of him to help her with Joffrey earlier. Tyrion explains why Joffrey was so furious and tells her about how Robb crushed his uncle Stafford's army. Sansa feels exulted and thinks to herself that Robb will kill them all. She repeats the line about what a vile traitor Robb is and asks about Lancel saying that Robb led an army of wargs. Tyrion laughs at this and says that Lancel is a wineskin warrior who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

 

It seems that Robb's men quietly snuck into Stafford's camp and cut all of the horse lines whereupon they set Grey Wind lose to create maximum chaos since the horses are so frightened of direwolves. Ser Stafford is actually slain running after a horse and lots of men were captured including Tyrion's cousin Martyn Lannister. The people who survived the battle are spreading wild tales and it's now said that the old gods march with Robb.

 

Sansa is relieved that there was no sorcery involved in her brother's victory and Tyrion says that the sorcery claims were likely made to cover up the incompetence of Ser Stafford who didn't even trouble to post sentries around the camp. The biggest mystery is how Robb's army was able to get so close to Lannisport without being detected.

 

Tyrion asks Sansa how she feels about Joffrey and she basically says that Joffrey is the greatest fiancé there ever was and that she's more in love with him now than ever before. Tyrion tells her that someone has taught her to lie well and tells her that she may be grateful for having that skill one day.

 

He asks Sansa if she's flowered yet and she confirms that she hasn't. Tyrion says that this is a good thing and admits that if he has his way Sansa won't have to marry Joffrey at all. He says that it was a good idea once upon a time but too much has happened to ever heal the rift between the Stark and Lannister families. Sansa can't think of a response to this and Tyrion asks her if she'd like her betrothal to Joffrey to be put aside. 

 

Sansa is unsure of how to respond and wonders if it's a trick. She wonders if she'll be punished if she tells the truth and replies that she wants only to be loyal. Tyrion says that he hears that Sansa visits the godswood everyday and asks her what she prays for everyday. She thinks about how she prays for Robb's victory and Joffrey's death but only admits to Tyrion that she prays for an end to all of the fighting.

 

Tyrion says that the fighting should be ending soon enough since there's going to be a battle between Robb and Tywin. Sansa thinks to herself that Robb beat Stafford and Jaime so he'll be able to beat Tywin too. Sansa feels it's as though Tyrion can see right through her and listens as he tells her that she'd better pray that Robb has the sense to bend the knee because Tywin isn't going to be easy to defeat like Stafford.

 

Tyrion tells her that she may sleep in the Tower of the Hand if she likes but Sansa freaks out at the idea of this and thinks that if she stays there then it means Ser Dontos won't be able to rescue her.

 

Tyrion offers her some of his men to use as guards but Sansa rejects the offer and says that the wildlings frighten her. Tyrion admits that they are indeed a little scary but points out to Sansa that they're the kind of guards who are capable of frightening Joffrey. He says with someone like Chella or Timett at her side people wouldn't dare harm her.

 

Sansa insists that she would rather return to her own bed. She says that the ghosts of her father's men would give her terrible nightmares since this is the tower in which they were slain. Tyrion looks at Sansa's face and tells her that he's no stranger to having nightmares. He suggests that she may be wiser than he first realized and asks her to permit him to escort her back to her chambers.

[Avaleigh]

It's interesting how the Hound is able to get away with not obeying Joffrey's commands and nobody really seems to notice not even Joffrey. Why wouldn't Sandor's 'brothers' not be like 'Uh, the king just gave you a command...'

 

If Tyrion hadn't come in, I wonder if the Hound would have continued to stand there and watch it happen. 

 

It's unreal to me that there weren't shocked gasps from the crowd. Seriously, who laughs at something like that? I wonder what Selmy would have done if he hadn't been sacked. I'm sure he would have spoken up but would he have gone against Joffrey's orders in order to help stop the beating? 

 

Joffrey certainly didn't like the idea of Cersei being brought to that scene. I wonder how she would have reacted because his reaction makes it seem like he might have to deal with some sort of disapproval. It's hard to imagine Cersei ever really disapproving of him though. In the first two books she often seems to be in the other room when Joffrey's at his very worst and basically seems like she's in denial whenever somebody tells her something negative about him. I think the books do a better job of showing how she presents two sides to the world and is very practiced when it comes to being fake polite and nice to people.

 

Show Cersei also seemed to recognize how awful Joffrey was when he was alive in a way that book Cersei didn't seem to accept as readily. She gets that one line where she reflects on how sweet Tommen is with his kittens and seems thankful in a way that he isn't like his brother but I think that scene was the only real moment where she allowed herself to reflect on Joffrey's monstrous side.  In the show she has several moments where seems disturbed by him and one notable moment where she's even afraid of him. I don't recall book Cersei ever being afraid of him. 

 

At the same time, there are several points where she seems to wish that Tommen were more like Joffrey save the part of Joffrey that liked to do things like mutilate cats. This kid really does have a thing for torturing cats, doesn't he? I winced when reading the description of Sansa stepping around the cat and seeing proof of Joffrey's mood.

 

Regarding Dontos and the melon--how does it not hurt to be whacked in the head with a freaking melon? 

 

I understand why she wouldn't trust it but man, I wish that Sansa had taken Tyrion up on his offer to have Chella as a personal guard. 

 

I like the detail of her being in Arya's old room. 

 

When Tyrion tells Sansa that she's a good liar, I couldn't help but feel disbelief because her lies sound too OTT to be genuine. 

 

I think the most chilling thing about Sansa and Arya at this point is that both actively fear for their lives every single day. 

 

It's still amazing to me that Boros ever become a member of the Kingsguard. Is the fault of this on Robert? Selmy? Both? Jon Arryn? 

[nodorothyparker]

It's unreal to me that there weren't shocked gasps from the crowd. Seriously, who laughs at something like that? I wonder what Selmy would have done if he hadn't been sacked. I'm sure he would have spoken up but would he have gone against Joffrey's orders in order to help stop the beating?

 

This is the same throne room where we'll be told later in this same book that was packed with onlookers and the members of the Kingsguard who stood around and silently watched while Rickard and Brandon Stark were murdered.  And Selmy was a member of that Kingsguard.  What's happening to Sansa is terrible, but the bar's been set pretty low.

 

Edit:  It's not the throne room but the bailey where they're practicing archery, but the example still stands.

Edited February 21, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[nodorothyparker]

It's painful in Sansa's talk with Tyrion to see just how much Joffrey and Cersei have messed with her head.  She doesn't trust him and ultimately goes for the lie she thinks he wants to hear every single time rather than risk further punishment by saying anything she actually thinks.  It's also painful that she's still pinning all her hopes on Dontos, who frankly doesn't seem capable of much on his own.  I do wonder if Tyrion really could have pulled off breaking the betrothal to Joffrey and sending her home as he says here if the Tyrells hadn't helped the Lannisters beat back Stannis at the Blackwater and offered a much more attractive marriage alliance and how he would have accomplished that.

[benteen]

That’s the sad part in this.  Tyrion really wants to help her but Sansa was burned so badly by Joffrey and Cersei that she is unable to trust Tyrion (and understandably so).

[Lady S.]

This is the same throne room where we'll be told later in this same book that was packed with onlookers and the members of the Kingsguard who stood around and silently watched while Rickard and Brandon Stark were murdered.  And Selmy was a member of that Kingsguard.  What's happening to Sansa is terrible, but the bar's been set pretty low.

 

Edit:  It's not the throne room but the bailey where they're practicing archery, but the example still stands.

One difference between Aerys and Joffrey is that Aerys' Kingsguard stood idly by, but weren't actually ordered to participate in his brutalities the way Boros and Meryn do here. Standing idly by was still wrong, but I'm sure that only watching was how they eased their consciences at night. Boros and Meryn aren't doing this out of loyalty to their king or the institution of the Kingsguard, they just don't give a shit about who they hurt or why. So I don't think we can assume that someone who did care about his vows would see this as his duty and obey blindly. Jaime later points that out Joffrey was only a boy without the full powers of kingship. If he's not actually ruling anything yet why should he have the authority to make the Kingsguard obey his every whim, no matter how bad the order is? I think Barristan would be appalled that a child, without even the full authority Aerys had, would want to use the Kingsguard as his personal domestic abuse proxies in a way Aerys never asked of them. If he had enough sense he would have sent for Cersei and Tyrion, the ones with actual royal authority, before allowing the order to go through.

 

It's interesting how the Hound is able to get away with not obeying Joffrey's commands and nobody really seems to notice not even Joffrey. Why wouldn't Sandor's 'brothers' not be like 'Uh, the king just gave you a command...'

 

If Tyrion hadn't come in, I wonder if the Hound would have continued to stand there and watch it happen.

Yes, I always wonder what would have happened with Sandor if Dontos hadn't provided a distraction or later if Tyrion hadn't come in to put a stop to everything. Back in Sansa I, she said the Hound was the only one Joff never ordered to hit her. Why was that? Why doesn't Joffrey care that Sandor disobeys his order here? Was he testing if Sandor would hit her, thinking he wouldn't disobey in public?

I understand why she wouldn't trust it but man, I wish that Sansa had taken Tyrion up on his offer to have Chella as a personal guard.

Eh, Chella could only guard Sansa until Stannis got there. Tyrion sent his clansmen out as guerrilla fighters and then Tywin sent them away after Blackwater. Tyrion is talking here in terms of releasing here when the Stark/Lannister fighting was done, as if he'd actually have a choice on what happened to Sansa later on, which he didn't after Tywin took up the Handship and Tywin was never going to release Sansa. Tyrion either believes Tywin won't show up until after Robb would be defeated in the field, or he just has an odd tendency to forget that he only has the post temporarily until Tywin gets there. Not trusting Tyrion plays a part in why she repeats her lies to him but the other reason she didn't want Chella at her side was so she'd have the freedom to meet with Dontos. Dontos was the only offering to get her out without the condition of Robb bending the knee.

It's still amazing to me that Boros ever become a member of the Kingsguard. Is the fault of this on Robert? Selmy? Both? Jon Arryn?

I don't think Barry would have chosen either of these thugs. I assume the Kingsguard was another failing of the Robert Baratheon/Jon Arryn brain trust. Varys told Ned that Meryn and Boros were both Cersei's creatures, so I'm guessing she recommended them to Robert just as she arranged for his Lannister squires.

[benteen]

I take it these shitty members of the Kingsguard were all political appointments but seriously, weren't there better knights that could have also satisfied the political appointment aspect?

[nodorothyparker]

Have we ever been told specifically who appoints members of the Kingsguard?  I seriously can't remember reading whether it's normally the king or the lord commander.

 

I'll admit I don't have a particularly high opinion of the Kingsguard as an institution no matter how poetically Ned or Selmy or Jaime wax about how great it used to be.  Sansa's treatment in this book certainly colors it, as do Jaime's later stories about asking if they shouldn't intervene when Aerys was doing something awful and being told by a much more vaunted member that their duty was to guard the king, not judge him or get involved.

[DigitalCount]

The thing that I'm struck by is how often Barristan seems unnaturally protected from having to make decisions that sully his honor. He's far away from KL during the Sack of KL, and he was removed from the Kingsguard at this point in the story, so we don't really have a handle on how he would act if a threat to his loyalty was genuinely present.

Edited February 22, 2016 by DigitalCount

[Holmbo]

The thing that I'm struck by is how often Barristan seems unnaturally protected from having to make decisions that sully his honor. He's far away from KL during the Sack of KL, and he was removed from the Kingsguard at this point in the story, so we don't really have a handle on how he would act if a threat to his loyalty was genuinely present.

Yes. Though I have to assume that Aerys did order his kingsguard to do unhonorable things. Or maybe they just never did anything but stood by and watch, which is not ok in our eyes but perhaps in theirs.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn IV

 

Catelyn has been escorted to a local sept in an abandoned village. The sept has seven walls and each wall has a charcoal drawing on it to represent one of the seven aspects of god. The septs in the wealthy cities have statues to represent each of the seven aspects. In Winterfell the sept's walls have masks.

 

Ser Wendel and Ser Robar wait for her outside while she kneels before the wall that represents the Mother. She prays for all of the sons who are going to fight tomorrow and also asks for her three sons to be spared. She thinks that a crack in the drawing makes it look as though the Mother is crying. She wonders if the old gods ever answered Ned and if they could hear him when he would kneel before a heart tree.

 

When Catelyn looks at the drawing of the Father it makes her think of her own father. With the Warrior she sees Stannis, Renly, Robb, Robert, Jaime, and Jon Snow; for a moment she thinks she even sees Arya. The Mother reminds her of her own mother and she thinks about how she died in childbirth. She thinks about how different things might have been if her mother had lived and wonders what her mother would make of her now.

 

Catelyn thinks about how far she's traveled and wonders what good she's done. She considers how Robb doesn't want her, how she's lost her daughters, and how Bran and Rickon probably think she's a cold mother. She thinks about how she wasn't there when Ned died. She feels like part of her died when Ned was killed.

 

For a moment Catelyn thinks she sees Lysa's face on the wall of the Mother but then the eyes seem to turn into Cersei's. She thinks about how Cersei is a mother and wonders if she prays to the Mother too. She decides that even Cersei would weep for her children and thinks about how the Mother can be just as fierce as the Warrior where children are concerned.

 

Catelyn goes back to when Robert was at Winterfell and remembers that he didn't treat Joffrey with any particular affection or warmth. She thinks that Robert would have had Cersei and the children killed if Jaime was really their father. Bastards are common and tolerated but incest is something that both the old gods and new have a big problem with. The dragon kings were allowed to get away with marrying brother to sister because that was a tradition that dates back to Old Valyria.

 

Catelyn decides that Ned and Jon Arryn must both have known about the Lannister incest and thinks that Cersei had them both killed because of this. Catelyn wonders if she would do any less to protect her own children. She realizes that Bran must know too and that's why the attempt was made on his life.

 

Lost and weary, Catelyn Stark gave herself over to her gods. She knelt before the Smith, who fixed things that were broken, and asked that he give her sweet Bran his protection. She went to the Maid and beseeched her to lend her courage to Arya and Sansa, to guard them in their innocence. To the Father, she prayed for justice, the strength to seek it and the wisdom to know it, and she asked the Warrior to keep Robb strong and shield him in his battles. Lastly she turned to the Crone, whose statues often showed her with a lamp in one hand. "Guide me, wise lady," she prayed. "Show me the path I must walk, and do not let me stumble in the dark places that lie ahead."

 

Catelyn is interrupted by Ser Robar who comes in to tell her that they must return. She's escorted to Renly's pavilion where Renly is being armored by Brienne for battle. Tarly and Rowan are there too discussing tactics with Renly. Catelyn addresses Renly as a king and tells him that she must speak with him.

 

Renly says he'll speak with Catelyn in a moment and asks Rowan to continue talking. Rowan gives Catelyn the side eye for a moment and asks Renly why they don't just attack now instead of waiting for daybreak. Renly says that he doesn't like the idea of people saying he won through treachery and says that they'll stick with attacking at dawn since that's what was agreed upon.

 

Tarly cautions that the sun will make their army half blind and is sure that Stannis is counting on this. Renly thinks Loras can handle it. He gives instructions that his brother's body is to be treated with respect and that he doesn't want to see his head paraded around on a spike. Tarly asks what they should do if Stannis yields. Rowan laughs the notion and cites the siege of Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion as proof that Stannis will never yield.

 

Renly shares a story about that siege where Stannis had four knights nearly flung from the walls via catapult after they attempted to surrender. The only reason the men were spared the catapult ride was because Maester Cressen told Stannis that they might be forced to eat their dead and said there was no point in flinging away good meat. The Onion Knight arrived in time to make sure that they didn't have to resort to cannibalism but Renly says it was a near thing.

 

Catelyn reminds Renly that he promised her a word so Renly gives final instructions that if Barristan Selmy is riding at Stannis's side that he does not want the knight to be harmed. Renly assumes that Barristan is serving someone and reasons that if he isn't with him or Robb then he must be with Stannis. Renly's lords agree that no harm will come to Barristan.

 

Renly tells Catelyn to say whatever it is that she has to say so she tells him that the Lannisters tried to kill Bran and that it was because Bran likely caught Jaime and Cersei together. Catelyn asks Renly to give her leave so that she can speak to Stannis to tell him what she suspects. Renly asks what Catelyn is trying to accomplish and she suggests that Stannis, Robb, and Renly put aside their crowns and get together to call a great council where they'll invite all of the lords of the Seven Kingdoms to listen to what Bran has to say. After that they'll be able to choose who would be best suited to rule the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Renly laughs at this and asks if direwolves vote on who gets to lead the pack. Brienne brings Renly his absurdly large greathelm that adds a foot and a half to his height.

 

Catelyn starts to beg Renly in the name of the mother when a gust of wind opens the door of the tent.

She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword. . .

 

Renly says the word "cold" before his throat is opened by a shadow of blade. He collapses into Brienne's arms and she screams, holds him, and sounds as scared as a little girl. Catelyn doesn't know exactly what just happened, she just knows that an evil shadow just killed Renly.

 

Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy rush in after hearing Brienne's screams and immediately assume that she's responsible for Renly's death. Emmon orders her to get away from Renly's body and Robar asks her why she did it. Brienne can hardly speak and Emmon tells her that she'll die for what she's done. Catelyn screams "No!" after Emmon says this.

 

Brienne and Emmon are soon fighting but Robar holds back at first and is just about to join in on the attack against Brienne when Catelyn tells him that it wasn't Brienne. She swears to Robar that it was Stannis who killed Renly and Robar asks how that can be. Catelyn says that Stannis must have used sorcery or some kind of dark magic. She mentions how Brienne clearly loved Renly and swears on Ned's grave and on her honor as a Stark that Brienne is innocent.

 

Catelyn's words get through to Robar and he agrees to hold the others off to give Catelyn and Brienne time to flee. Catelyn returns to where Brienne and Emmon are fighting and helps Brienne by hitting Emmon over the head with an iron brazier. The two women leave out of the other side of the pavilion and try to walk calmly like everything is fine so that they don't draw attention to themselves.

 

Brienne tells Catelyn that the only time she ever got to hold Renly was when he was dying in her arms. She doesn't understand what happened and comments how Renly was laughing one moment and dying the next.

 

Catelyn tells Brienne about the shadow and says that she thought it was Renly's shadow at first only to realize that it was Stannis. Catelyn says that she felt Stannis's presence and Brienne swears that she'll kill Stannis and that she'll do it with Renly's sword.

 

When they make it back to Catelyn's section of the camp, her men are saddled up and ready to go. Wendel Manderly asks what's going on and looks at how Brienne is covered in blood. Catelyn confirms that Renly is dead but clarifies that they didn't have anything to do with it. She says that there isn't going to be a battle and tells Brienne to choose a mount so that she can leave with them. Brienne protests that she has her own horse and armor, but Catelyn says that they need to leave now if they're to have any hope of getting away. She says they aren't going to forget that she and Brienne were both with Renly when he was killed. Catelyn commands her escort to cut down any many who tries to stop them.

 

Catelyn thinks about how all of Renly's men are likely going to go over to Stannis now and how he seems to have won in one move.

 

She remembers Stannis saying that Robb was just as much of a traitor as Renly and that Robb's day will come too. She feels a chill go through her.

[Avaleigh]

I thought this chapter was great. 

 

I still felt that Renly's death was sad without feeling sorry for Renly if that makes any sense. He seems like a child playing dress up and then has his throat cut and doesn't have the chance to fight. He doesn't get to see Loras again and he just said that he didn't want to be underhanded with Stannis only for Stannis to be underhanded with him. It's interesting that Catelyn can feel Stannis's presence. The moment where she remembers what Stannis said about Robb is chilling and she'll never know the part Stannis played there. 

 

I loved Catelyn thinking that she sees Arya in the Warrior. 

 

When Catelyn first started praying I thought it was noticeable that she didn't include her daughters at first. She adds them on later in the chapter but I thought it was odd that she didn't group them in the the boys when she first began. I was surprised too that she thought of Jon Snow at all when she was seeing faces in the Warrior. 

 

I liked Robar Royce here. He knows that something isn't right and his first question is "why?" because it doesn't make any sense. I like that his gut told him that Catelyn was telling the truth even though what she was saying didn't make any sense. 

 

Another good moment is when Catelyn is telling her guys that they have to go, they see Brienne covered in blood, and Cat is able to wave it off and somehow be believable. 

 

I also have to take a moment to talk about how ridiculous Renly's helm is. How is wearing that huge thing during a battle not a disaster waiting to happen? 

[Lady S.]

The part that made me feel bad for Renly was his remembering the Siege of Storm's End, saying he could still see Gawen Wylde's face as they strapped him down to a catapult, which stands out when people are always saying they have a hard time remembering faces. A little boy watching the former master-at-arms almost be catapulted and then being privy to discussion of cannibalism sounds a lot worse than little Bran watching his father behead a deserter. No doubt all that early childhood trauma and almost starving to death played a part in Renly developing his YOLO, do what you feel, attitude into manhood and not really growing up. Attention seeking games of escapism make perfect sense from an orphan boy who went through what Renly did, and I think associating Stannis with memories like this poisoned their relationship and made him resent Stannis.

I loved Catelyn thinking that she sees Arya in the Warrior.

Yes, I was wondering what everyone made of her seeing Arya in the Warrior, since I'm not sure that tomboy necessarily means warrior. The degree that that aspect fits Arya is something Cat can't understand, since she doesn't even know that Arya had Needle and swordfighting lessons, let alone that Arya's having to defend herself in a warzone. From her limited knowledge Arya's either a Lannister prisoner or dead, so I find it really interesting that she sees Arya like this, instinctively thinking of Arya's unladylike fierceness. Maybe it has to do with being around Brienne and the Mormont women before her, idk, but I don't think she would ever seen Arya in the Warrior before.

 

I really liked the line leading into her musings on Cersei having Jon Arryn and Ned killed, thinking that the Mother could be even fiercer than the Warrior when her children are in danger. I found it interesting that this thought came from her priest's teachings. It's still sexist in its own way to think a woman should only be fierce for the sake of her children, but it's still interesting that mothers aren't expected to only be passive and nurturing babymachines.

 

 

When Catelyn first started praying I thought it was noticeable that she didn't include her daughters at first. She adds them on later in the chapter but I thought it was odd that she didn't group them in the the boys when she first began. I was surprised too that she thought of Jon Snow at all when she was seeing faces in the Warrior.

Yeah, but at the end when she's praying to different gods for her sons and daughters, she left out Rickon, which amused me. She sees Jon Snow in the Warrior but she also sees Jaime Lannister, the guy who crippled her son, so it's not like she was praying for all of them. But I don't think she thinks of Jaime and Jon in the same way, since y'know, one of them tried to kill Bran. Honestly, though, I don't think she bears Jon any ill will once he's in the NW, as that was really all she wanted, and she only gets worked up over him again when Robb wants to legitimize him.

 

I liked Robar Royce here. He knows that something isn't right and his first question is "why?" because it doesn't make any sense. I like that his gut told him that Catelyn was telling the truth even though what she was saying didn't make any sense.

Robar Royce is the one I feel the worst for here, since Loras is about to kill him and Emmon Cuy when he finds them with Renly's corpse.

I also really liked Catelyn taking charge once Renly's guards rushed in, reasoning with Robar, knocking out Emmon Cuy with a brazier, then ordering Brienne to come with her and telling her men to kill any opposition in their way. The show just had her trying to convince Brienne not to waste time crying over Renly's corpse until the guards came in, Brienne killed them and then she and Catelyn left.

[benteen]

I always love the way the book does the shadow spawn.  Catelyn sees Renly's shadow and thinks its just that but then see the shadow moving and killing Renly.  Much better than the show's dull CGI shadow and generic kill.

 

I can't stand Renly but he has at least one human moment when he said that he doesn't want Stannis's body to be desecrated. 

 

I always thought Catelyn seeing both Jon and Jaime was interesting.  It annoyed me at first, thinking she held Jon as poorly as she held the man who crippled her son.  But I don't think it was that way now.  There was a brief scene in the first book where she immediately distrusts Mya Stone because she was a bastard and then remembers Jon Snow and feels shame.  I believe.  I always took that as an acknowledgement that she regretted how shitty she treated him the last time they saw each other.  I admit, I wish we could have gotten another scene between Catelyn and Jon, post him joining the Night's Watch.

 

Catelyn using the brazier to help Brienne I liked.  The show cut out things like this and Catelyn killing a Mountain Clansman in the first season.  To me that was more of the show stripping things from her and reducing her to a one-dimensional "mom" figure.

Edited February 23, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

This is one of Catelyn's better chapters for me.  She's musing on so many different characters there in the sept and everything that's happened up to this point.  She even manages to have a certain amount of empathy, albeit short lived, for Cersei as a mother.  And that's before we get to all the action.

 

I realize a lot of medieval armor was heavy, but Renly's sounds just unwieldy and ridiculous which only adds to the sense that this has all been just a game of boys playing dressup and war.  His story of the siege of Storm's End only highlights again just how much younger he was than his brothers.  Stannis is an adult making hard decisions in that story while Renly was just a little boy seeing his master of arms' face.  His refusal to be underhanded with Stannis and his order forbidding his corpse to be desecrated sounds very good and noble on paper, but they can also be taken as the actions of someone who doesn't appreciate the realities of war or just what he'll really be up against fighting someone as ruthless as Stannis.

 

This is also one of the few times I really like Catelyn as a character as she immediately realizes what's happening even if she can't quite get her mind around it and takes charge of the situation to get herself and Brienne out of there.  Had she not, both women may very have been killed especially by the time Loras and Randall Tarly showed up.  I also liked her earlier cobbled together notion of getting both Baratheon brothers and Robb together on a council to deal with the incest and pick a new king.  It was never going to happen, but it was nice idea all the same that would have prevented enormous bloodshed.

Edited February 23, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

That abandoned sept was unsettling. Learning that there are masks in the sept at Winterfell made me with that a character would go in there so that we can get descriptions.

 

Catelyn using the brazier to help Brienne I liked.  The show cut out things like this and Catelyn killing a Mountain Clansman in the first season.  To me that was more of the show stripping things from her and reducing her to a one-dimensional "mom" figure.

Great point, I definitely agree. I've definitely feel like Catelyn has grown on me as a character during this reread and I feel like I have even more respect for the character than I once did. Speaking of respecting Cat--

 

This is also one of the few times I really like Catelyn as a character as she immediately realizes what's happening even if she can't quite get her mind around it and takes charge of the situation to get herself and Brienne out of there.  Had she not, both women may very have been killed especially by the time Loras and Randall Tarly showed up.  I also liked her earlier cobbled together notion of getting both Baratheon brothers and Robb together on a council to deal with the incest and pick a new king.  It was never going to happen, but it was nice idea all the same that would have prevented enormous bloodshed.

I too liked the idea that she presented. It's surprising too because what she was suggesting wouldn't be unlike what the Ironborn do with a Kingsmoot. Even though I'm not wild about the Ironborn I've always found it interesting that they're the only group in Westeros who are willing to vote on the best guy for the job when it comes to choosing a king.

 

Even though it wouldn't have happened it does make me wonder what the general consensus would have been regarding choosing a king. I wonder where Dorne would have stood in a situation like that. (I wonder if anyone would have wanted to reach out to Dany under these circumstances?) Also, what about all of the lords of the Westerlands? Would they have been invited? Would anyone have been able to put their name in the ring? I wonder what the Ironborn would think of a Kingsmoot for all of Westeros? 

[nodorothyparker]

Dany at this point is still a rather young girl on the far side of the world and without an army or anything much in the way of resources save rumors of three very small dragons.  I can't imagine any of the Westeros lords as we've been presented with them at this stage as being at all interested in putting their eggs in that basket.  Dorne maybe since we know from later books that Prince Doran is actively plotting for a Targaryen restoration, but I suppose it ultimately depends on how much the various factions believe in the whole divine right of kings thing versus advancing their own interests.

 

It would probably take a violent coup to rid Kings Landing of all the Lannisters and their supporters before they could even begin to sort out who should be king. A united front could likely do that but then you're still left with the question of whether Stannis at any point might be willing to compromise or see reason.  

[Avaleigh]

Dany at this point is still a rather young girl on the far side of the world and without an army or anything much in the way of resources save rumors of three very small dragons.  I can't imagine any of the Westeros lords as we've been presented with them at this stage as being at all interested in putting their eggs in that basket.  Dorne maybe since we know from later books that Prince Doran is actively plotting for a Targaryen restoration, but I suppose it ultimately depends on how much the various factions believe in the whole divine right of kings thing versus advancing their own interests.

 

It would probably take a violent coup to rid Kings Landing of all the Lannisters and their supporters before they could even begin to sort out who should be king. A united front could likely do that but then you're still left with the question of whether Stannis at any point might be willing to compromise or see reason.  

I wasn't thinking of a Targ restoration so much as if anyone would think that Dany would be good bride material for a candidate like, say, Robb or maybe even Quentyn to kind of bolster their claim. (Assuming they were interested.) 

[nodorothyparker]

That I could maybe see.  Since we've already had a few characters point out that the whole Seven Kingdoms-Iron Throne thing had been an exclusively Targaryen construct before Robert's relatively short reign and that maybe no more Targaryens meant no more Iron Throne.   

[SeanC]

It's painful in Sansa's talk with Tyrion to see just how much Joffrey and Cersei have messed with her head.  She doesn't trust him and ultimately goes for the lie she thinks he wants to hear every single time rather than risk further punishment by saying anything she actually thinks.  It's also painful that she's still pinning all her hopes on Dontos, who frankly doesn't seem capable of much on his own.  I do wonder if Tyrion really could have pulled off breaking the betrothal to Joffrey and sending her home as he says here if the Tyrells hadn't helped the Lannisters beat back Stannis at the Blackwater and offered a much more attractive marriage alliance and how he would have accomplished that.

We don't really know what Tyrion is thinking at this moment, but if he really believes what he's saying, he's being pretty naive.  Indeed, Tyrion himself is implementing a plan to spring Jaime from Stark custody; were that to succeed, Sansa's position would be even less secure than it is now as the Starks wouldn't have anything on the Lannisters as a counterbalance (which paves the way for what ultimately happens to her in ASOS).

 

Sansa's not wrong to turn Tyrion down here.  They're on different sides and want different things.

[Avaleigh]

Jon IV

 

Jon and the others have just reached the Fist of the First Men and Jon thinks that it does indeed look like a fist coming out of the ground. As they're making the climb, Ghost keeps running off so finally Mormont tells Jon to let the direwolf go where he will and tells him he can find Ghost later.

 

Once they arrive at the Fist, Mormont says that they're going to make camp so that they can wait on Qhorin Halfhand. Thoren Smallwood mentions how old and strong the site is and Jon thinks about how the Fist dates back to the Dawn age and how it was said to be a ringfort for the First Men. Mormont's raven repeats the word "old".

 

Mormont is in a grumpy mood and Jon can tell that the effort of the journey is wearing the Lord Commander down. Jon wonders what they're going to do about water and seems concerned about the distance and how they'll have to go outside of the ring of stones to get it. Mormont says that they aren't going to find a stronger place to make camp so they're just going to have to deal with carrying the water up the hill.

 

The men make camp and Jon heads down the hill to start looking for Ghost. He quickly finds him and starts to go back up the hill. When they reach the ringfort, Ghost refuses to come inside. He sniffs at the stones and it's obvious that he doesn't like whatever it is that he's smelling. Jon grabs Ghost and tries to force him to come but direwolf continues to resist and Jon wonders what's wrong with him since it's not like him to be so unsettled. Jon eventually gives up and tells Ghost to go hunt.

 

Jon feels like they ought to be safe since they're in a good defensive position and they should be able to see anything that comes their way, but he still feels a growing sense of foreboding. He thinks about how the forest is haunted and wonders if there are ghosts there. He tells himself to stop acting like a boy but he can't keep himself from thinking about what might be lurking in the forest.

 

Sam calls up to Jon and asks him if he's well. Jon says that he's fine and asks Sam how he's faring. Sam says that he's doing well and Jon thinks that he'd better keep his grim thoughts to himself now that Sam is finally starting to show some courage. He tells Sam about how they're waiting for Qhorin Halfhand and the other men from the Shadow Tower.

 

Jon and Sam walk back to the camp together and Jon can hear the ravens before he sees them. Some of the ravens even call his name. Jon thinks that the ravens can feel whatever it is that he's feeling.

Jon says that he has to see to the Old Bear's food before he gets cranky, so he and Sam part.

 

Mormont's still kind of grumpy and orders Jon make some hot wine. After Jon prepares the wine and serves it to Mormont and the other officers, he hears the men talking about how they should proceed. Mormont thinks they're strongly placed where they are and says that the wildlings won't be able to slip by them if they remain camped at the Fist. He thinks that if it comes to battle with the wildlings that they're well positioned where they are. He says they should strengthen their defenses and gives orders for the rangers to limit themselves to one side of the river until Qhorin arrives because he doesn't want to lose any more men.

 

Smallwood is unhappy about the limits on the rangers and argues that Mance Rayder could be a day's ride away with a massive host and they'd never know. Mormont says that Craster has already told them where the wildlings are gathering and seems certain that Craster wasn't lying. Smallwood still isn't happy but says that it will be as Mormont says.

 

Jon asks Mormont if he's ready for his dinner and Mormont asks Jon if Ghost found any game today. Jon says that Ghost isn't back yet and Mormont says that they could do with some fresh meat. Mormont asks Jon if he thinks he's wrong for keeping the rangers close and Jon eventually admits that he thinks it'll be tough for the rangers to find Benjen if they're forced to stay within sight of the Fist.

 

Mormont decides that it's probably easier for one man to find two hundred than for two hundred men to find one. Mormont says that with all the men they have, they're leaving a trail that even Maester Aemon would be able to follow so if Benjen Stark is alive and hasn't been captured, then he should be able to find his way to them. He adds that even if Benjen is dead he might end up finding them anyway as a wight. Mormont's raven keeps repeating the word "dead" during this conversation.

 

Mormont decides that he won't have dinner after all and says that it'll be better if he rests. He asks Jon to wake him at first light.

 

Jon goes to join some of the others for dinner and hears Dywen talking about how he knows these woods better that anyone and he wouldn't want to have to ride alone in them tonight. He asks the others if they can smell what's in the air. Grenn asks Dywen what it is he smells and Dywen says that he smells the cold. Jon seems to be the only one who smells what Dywen smells and it reminds him of the night of the wight attack. Suddenly Jon isn't hungry anymore and gives his food to Grenn.

 

Jon hears wolves howling and it makes the hairs on the back of his neck stand up. He suddenly notices Ghost's presence and is surprised to see that he's back. Jon thinks about how Ghost warned him during the wight attack at Castle Black and asks Ghost if there's something out there. He asks Ghost if he has a scent and thinks again about Dywen talking about how he could smell cold.

 

Jon realizes that Ghost wants him to follow so they head away from the camp and Jon tells one of the men that he's going to get water for Mormont. As he walks down the hill he realizes how easy it will be for him to get injured if he isn't careful. Ghost is going at a fast pace and doesn't come when Jon calls to him. Jon decides to continue to follow and goes deeper and deeper into the woods. He can't see where Ghost is and is just about to turn back when he catches sight of him again. He chases Ghost a quarter of the way around the Fist, loses him again, and then finally finds the direwolf furiously digging at the ground.

 

Jon guesses that Ghost has found a grave and wonders whose it could be. Jon sees that whatever is here was buried recently. Jon pushes away the dirt, finds a bundle, and opens it up. Inside the bundle are dragonglass weapons and an old war horn. Jon examines the cloth that the weapons were kept in and soon realizes that it's a cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

I don't have too much for this chapter but I do like how creepy and scary the set up is. Based on the reactions of the animals I feel like we're right around the corner from that attack from the others but that isn't until the prologue of ASoS so I'm curious as to how much time passes in between this chapter and the prologue of the third book. 

 

The ravens are all calling Jon's name? Is that normal or are they saying "snow"? 

 

Speaking of ravens, Mormont's raven saying the word 'dead'--they were talking about Benjen but it could also be the raven reacting to the smell that Dywen is talking about. I wonder if other people smell the smell but just don't realize what it is. 

 

I liked the little detail of Mormont being cool with having lemon in his beer but not in his hot wine. How is one "southron heresy" and not the other lol?

 

I like Jon being considerate enough to not want to scare Sam any more than necessary. I also like how Mormont asks for Jon's opinion about the rangers. I have to say that I would love it if Jon and Jorah could meet some day just so they could talk about the Old Bear. 

 

Bran's up next.   

[WearyTraveler]

Does anyone else think that horn will come into play at some point later?  It's found with the dragon glass weapons, so it must be important.  Also, we keep reading about it in future chapters, almost every time Sam speaks about the dragon glass, the horn is mentioned.  It gives me a Chekhov's gun feeling.  It shows up early; it's stored with life-saving, critical tools; it's put there by a friend / member of the Watch; and we're regularly reminded of its existence in future chapters.

 

Also, I can't help but think that since everyone in the story dismisses it as just another horn, it will turn out to be important.

Edited February 24, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Lady S.]

I don't have too much for this chapter but I do like how creepy and scary the set up is. Based on the reactions of the animals I feel like we're right around the corner from that attack from the others but that isn't until the prologue of ASoS so I'm curious as to how much time passes in between this chapter and the prologue of the third book. 

 

The ravens are all calling Jon's name? Is that normal or are they saying "snow"? 

 

Speaking of ravens, Mormont's raven saying the word 'dead'--they were talking about Benjen but it could also be the raven reacting to the smell that Dywen is talking about. I wonder if other people smell the smell but just don't realize what it is.

Enough time for Qhorin and the other scouting groups to make it to their destinations.

Yeah, I'm sure he means they were saying just snow, not Jon. Wasn't that what they said in an earlier chapter?

Nice insight on Mormont's raven. This whole thing is so mysterious it's impossible to know what's going on. Ghost's behavior and the meandering zig zag path he leads Jon on (instead of going straight to the dragonglass cache) is what really weirds me out.

When Jeor talked about well situated they'd be for a battle with Mance Rayder, I thought about how they'd really be best situated back with the 700ft wall. Trying to stop Mance from ever getting to the Wall with a force of 300 men is not a risk worth taking imo. They've put the wights/white walkers issue on the backburner and are now just sitting crows for the upcoming wight attack. I'm reminded of Jon's decision pre-Pink Letter to lead an expedition into the disaster at Hardhome and try to deal with all the problems himself.

Does anyone else think that horn will come into play at some point later?  It's found with the dragon glass weapons, so it must be important.  Also, we keep reading about it in future chapters, almost every time Sam speaks about the dragon glass, the horn is mentioned.  It gives me a Chekhov's gun feeling.  It shows up early; it's stored with life-saving, critical tools; it's put there by a friend / member of the Watch; and we're regularly reminded of its existence in future chapters.

 

Also, I can't help but think that since everyone in the story dismisses it as just another horn, it will turn out to be important.

Oh, yeah, definitely the number one contender for the Horn of Joramun. Maybe a NW man found it to keep it out of the hands of the wildlings.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Bran V

 

Bran is informed that Robb has sent a raven so he's carried to Maester Luwin's where Rickon and the two Walders are already waiting. Luwin tells the boys that there's good news and bad news. The good news is that Robb has won another victory against the Lannisters and has taken several castles. The letter was written at Ashemark which was once the stronghold of House Marbrand.

 

Rickon wonders if this means that Robb is coming home but Luwin says Robb still has more battles to fight. Bran asks if it was Tywin was the Lannister Robb defeated in the battle and Luwin tells them that it was actually Ser Stafford Lannister who was slain leading the command. Bran agrees with Big Walder when Big Walder gives his opinion that Tywin is the only one who matters.  

 

Rickon tells Luwin to tell Robb that he wants him to come home. Rickon thinks that if Robb comes home then he can bring back Greywind, their mother, and even their father. Bran knows that Rickon knows that Ned is dead and suspects that he willfully forgets about their father's death.

 

Bran is happy about Robb's victory but he also thinks about how Osha said that Robb and his army were marching the wrong way back when they first marched from Winterfell.

 

Luwin says that Robb's victory came at a price and informs the two Walders that their uncle Stevron died from the wounds he received during the battle. Neither Walder is upset and they start talking excitedly about who's next in line. Big Walder doesn't care who's next in line and says that he'll be the lord one day.

 

Maester Luwin interjects at this point and tells them that they should both be ashamed of themselves for talking the way that they are. He asks them where their grief is and Little Walder claims that he and his cousin are both very sad.

 

They weren't, though. Bran got a sick feeling in his belly. They like the taste of this dish better than I do. He asked Maester Luwin to be excused.

 

Osha turns up to carry Bran away from Luwin's turret and once they start crossing the yard, Bran asks her if she knows the way to the Wall and beyond. She tells him that the way is easy and one simply has to "look for the Ice Dragon and chase the blue star in the rider's eye."

 

Bran asks about Giants, the children of the forest, and the Others. Osha confirms that she's seen giants before, she's heard of the children, and then pauses and asks Bran why he wants to know about the white walkers. He asks if she's ever seen a three eyed crow and Osha laughs and says that she hasn't.

 

Osha brings Bran back to his room and moments after she leaves, the Reed siblings come in to visit with him. Bran asks if they heard about the raven and when Jojen nods, Bran starts telling him that the reality wasn't supper like it was in the dream Jojen told him about. Jojen explains that the green dreams aren't always easy to interpret.

 

Bran wants to know about the dream Jojen had where something bad is coming to Winterfell. Jojen asks Bran if he truly believes him now and asks if he'll trust in what he has to say no matter how odd it sounds. Bran nods his head and Jojen tells him that the sea is coming to Winterfell.

 

I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didnt know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well.

 

Bran is confused by what Jojen is saying and wonders how it could be possible when the sea is so far away. He thinks that even if the sea did somehow rush in that it would be unlikely to rise above Winterfell's high walls.

 

Jojen says that the sea is going to come at night and says that he saw drowned and bloated corpses during the dream. Bran thinks that they need to warn Alebelly, Chayle, and Mikken and tell them not to drown but Jojen says that this won't help them. Meera puts a hand on Bran's shoulder and explains that the three men won't believe what they're being told and that they'll be as skeptical as Bran once was.

 

Jojen sits on Bran's bed and asks Bran to tell him about his dreams. Bran says that some dreams are worse than others and there are different kinds. Sometimes he has the wolf dreams that aren't so bad; sometimes he's dreaming of the crow who asks him to fly; sometimes he dreams of a tree that's calling his name and he admits that this frightens him. He says the worst dreams though are the ones where he's falling. He talks about how he would climb everywhere and never used to fall. Ever since his accident he falls all of the time in his dreams.

 

Jojen tells Bran that he's a warg and says that people will call him a shapechanger and a beastling if he ever lets anyone know about his wolf dreams. Jojen says that his own people will fear him, hate him, and even try to kill him if they find out that he's a warg. Bran thinks about how the shapechangers and beastlings in the stories she would tell were always evil. Bran insists that he isn't like that and says that they're only dreams.

 

Jojen explains that wolf dreams aren't really dreams and says that Bran has his third eye shut whenever he's awake. It's when Bran sleeps that his third eye comes open because Bran's soul is seeking out its other half. Jojen says that the power is strong in Bran.

 

Bran says that he doesn't want this power and just wants to be a knight. Jojen tell Bran that he can't change who he is and that he's a warg whether he wants to be one or not. He says that he's the winged wolf but he won't be able to fly until he learns to open his other eye. He pokes Bran in the forehead after he says this to emphasize the point.

 

Bran doesn't feel the eye on his forehead and wonders how he's supposed to open something that isn't there. Jojen says that Bran needs to search with his heart if he wants to be able to open this third eye. Jojen asks Bran if he's afraid to open it and Bran says that Luwin has told him that there isn't anything in dreams that men need to fear. Jojen says that this are things to fear from dreams like the past, the future, and the truth.

 

Bran is confused about all of this and unsuccessfully spends some time trying to open his third eye once he's left alone again. The next day he tries to warn Mikken, Chayle, and Alebelly but Alebelly is the only one of the three to take the warning seriously. He actually goes to talk to Jojen himself and is freaked out enough by Jojen's response to avoid water altogether until a group of men finally force him to bathe. He thinks that the men are going to drown him during this forced bath and once he survives the experience, he has nothing but scowls for Bran or Jojen anytime he sees them.

 

Mikken laughs when Bran gives him the warning and says that he always wanted to see the sea. Septon Chayle is fine with dying whenever the gods want to take him but doesn't think it's likely that he'll drown especially since he grew up by the water and is a strong swimmer.

 

A few days after Alebelly's forced bath, Ser Rodrik returns to Winterfell with a prisoner who smells like shit and goes by the name of Reek. Reek was a servant to the bastard of Roose Bolton and is said to have helped Ramsay Snow kill Lady Hornwood.

 

Over supper that night Bran learns that the Bolton bastard is dead and that he was shot with arrows by Rodrik's men while trying to flee. Ser Rodrik and his men were too late to save Lady Hornwood and Bran learns that after her forced marriage to Ramsay, she was locked away in a tower and starved to death. Ser Rodrik found her body and her mouth was all bloody from having chewed off her fingers.

 

Rodrik tells Luwin that the situation is complicated because Lady Hornwood was Ramsay's wife. He made her say the words in front of a septon and a heart tree and then consummated the marriage in front of witnesses. Luwin argues that a marriage made at sword point wouldn't be valid but Rodrik says that Roose Bolton might be inclined to disagree since so much land is at stake.

 

Rodrik wants to kill Reek too but is keeping him alive for now until Robb returns. Reek is the only witness to Ramsay Snow's worst crimes and Rodrik hopes that Reek's testimony might make Roose decide to abandon his claim.

 

The other news is that Manderly's men are currently fighting men from the Dreadfort and Rodrik doesn't have the manpower to stop them.

 

Rodrik turns his attention to Bran and asks him what the story is regarding Alebelly not wanting to wash. Bran tells Rodrik about Jojen's dream, how the sea is coming to Winterfell, and how Alebelly is going to drown. Luwin fills Rodrik in on how Jojen thinks he sees the future in his dreams, but says that he's already told Bran about the uncertainty of prophecies. Luwin admits though that there has been trouble on the Stony Shore from raiders in longships who've been plundering fishing villages. Leobald Tallhart's nephew has been sent to deal with these raids but Luwin expects that the men in the longships will flee rather than stay and fight armed men. Rodrik comments on how cowardly these raiders are and says they'd never dare if Robb and his men weren't away.

 

Rodrik asks Bran what else Jojen had to say and Bran explains about how Jojen said that Alebelly would drown as well as Mikken and Septon Chayle. Rodrik says that if he has to personally deal with these raiders on the Stony Shore that he won't take Mikken. Bran feels better about this and thinks that if they stay away from the sea maybe they won't drown.

 

Meera seems hopeful about this too when she, Jojen, and Bran are together later that evening. Jojen is insistent though that his dreams always come true. Meera starts to get angry and asks why the gods would send a warning if they aren't going to be able to change what's to come. Jojen admits that he doesn't know the answer to this. Meera tells Jojen that if he were Alebelly that he probably would have jumped into a well to get it over with.

 

Meera says that Alebelly should fight and Bran should too. Bran feels scared when Meera says that he should fight and wonders if he's going to drown too. Meera looks guilty and says that she shouldn't have said what she said. Bran can tell that she's hiding something

 

Jojen tells Bran that he had a dream about the new arrival Reek and says that he saw him skinning off the faces of a dead Bran and Rickon. Meera is on her feet after Jojen says this and suggests killing Reek herself. Jojen says the gaolers will stop her and if she tells them why she's trying to kill Reek that they won't believe her.

 

Bran brings up the fact that he has guards too but Jojen says that the guards won't be able to stop Reek. He doesn't know why Reek won't be able to be stopped but he does know that he's seen Bran and Rickon together down in the crypts surrounded by dead Stark kings.

 

Bran thinks about going away someplace like Greywater Watch where he'd never be found but Jojen says that it won't matter where he goes because the dream was green and green dreams never lie.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Poor Ser Rodrik. I remembered the circumstances of Lady Hornwood's death of course but I didn't remember that he was the one to find her. I probably wishes that he'd married her now. Sad. 

 

When the discussion turned to Lady Hornwood's fingers in Shimpy's thread someone brought up the possibility that she'd been flayed and was biting off her fingers in response to that. That makes the most sense to me. 

 

I like that Alebelly decided to ask Jojen for himself because it made me imagine a humorous scene where this weird kid is just telling him in the most deadpan way that he's about to die. The bath part made me laugh too.

 

The interpreting green dreams reminds me of reading the flames in a way. They're seeing what's about to happen but some people are better interpreters than others. 

 

I have to think that if Luwin knew that Jojen told Bran that Reek would be skinning off Bran and Rickon's faces that he'd put an end to Bran hanging out with them.

 

Meera standing up and suggesting that she spear Reek through the heart was great. I wonder if Bran could have made this happen as Lord of Winterfell after writing to Robb. I wonder what Robb's response would be. 

 

It seems like Rodrik might as well team up with the Manderlys against the men of the Dreadfort since they've already taken a stand by supposedly having Ramsay killed.  

 

Mikken's comment about never having seen the sea reminded me of how startled I was when I heard in some documentary that Marie Antoinette never saw the ocean in her entire life. 

[Lady S.]

The interpreting green dreams reminds me of reading the flames in a way. They're seeing what's about to happen but some people are better interpreters than others.

Jojen proves he's not a perfect interpreter either here. I don't know how to feel about him telling Bran he's a beastling and all that, which is a change of pace from how the show portrayed wargs. It feels like his warning is only serving to isolate Bran from other people, including people who care about him and would never shun or attack him.

 

Meera standing up and suggesting that she spear Reek through the heart was great. I wonder if Bran could have made this happen as Lord of Winterfell after writing to Robb. I wonder what Robb's response would be. 

 

It seems like Rodrik might as well team up with the Manderlys against the men of the Dreadfort since they've already taken a stand by supposedly having Ramsay killed.

I don't really understand why they actually need "Reek" as a living witness to begin with. Even setting aside the forced marriage and coerced will, Roose Bolton has no claim to the Hornwood lands because they weren't Lady Hornwood's to give away. She was still living there, but as far as we know she was only a Hornwood by marriage, so she should have no more claim to the Hornwood than Catelyn would to Winterfell or Lysa to the Eyrie. It's not like the Hornwood family is all died out (as appears to be the case with House Dustin), there's Larence Snow and multiple female-line claimants. All Roose Bolton really has is the right of conquest because Dreadfort men are occupying the lands. If Robb legitimized Larence Snow or whatever, I really don't think he'd care about proving Ramsay's depravity. If Roose opposed Robb's chosen heir by force that would be open treason, and if Roose was going to do that, would he really be swayed by a stinky servant's testimony? Even though everyone would know it was the truth, I doubt "Reek" would make the best witness anyway. I think Rodrik is being over cautious here because the situation has turned so chaotic and he doesn't think he can do much about it.

I liked how the kids all knew Tywin was only Lannister who really mattered, and I was amused by Bran's annoyance with Rickon. Also interesting that the acting Lord of Winterfell is still being sheltered as no one would tell Bran that Ramsay and Reek were caught hunting and raping a girl.

[benteen]

I think Ramsay and Reek were raping a corpse when they were caught.  Just two horrible monsters.

 

The show has ridiculously turned Ramsay into “SUPER RAMSAY”, able to outthink and outfight everyone, even without his shirt off!  That was never who he was.  I will admit though, monster that he is, he does show with the Reek plan that he has an amazing ability to improvise on the fly and play the long game.  THAT is what has been key to his success, not shirtless fighting.

[nodorothyparker]

This chapter reminds me how aggravating characters who prophesy or speak in riddles really are.  Alebelly's reaction to being told he's going to drown is mostly played for laughs here, but how annoying would it be in real life to have the weird kid who's always hanging around the acting lord of the castle stirring things up and causing a bath strike by naming certain people as future drowning victims when they're hundreds of miles from the nearest ocean?  In hindsight of course we know that it's a metaphor for the coming Ironborn, but right now it's just a lot of nonsense.  Jojen doesn't even know how to interpret what he's seeing, and I agree that at the point he's talking about seeing "Reek skin the boys' faces off" and the crypt, someone should have mentioned it to Luwin to maybe think about separating them.

 

The Lady Hornwood story is of course terrible and again proves that nothing good came from all the stalling and dithering about what to do about her situation.  They had no idea how long Robb was going to be gone off to war or even if he'd ever come home safely, so they gambled and they lost and now she's dead and they've got men of the different bannermen killing each other over it.

 

I completely missed the "Reek" angle the first time I read this.  While the last-minute clothing switch is clever, his longterm survival plan here seems pretty dependent on things playing out exactly as they do, some of which he really couldn't have predicted.  I do love that this being a Bran POV, we're still not told exactly what Ramsey and Reek were doing when they were caught so as to save that little nugget of horror for later.

Edited February 25, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

I think Ramsay and Reek were raping a corpse when they were caught.  Just two horrible monsters.

I believe Ramsay raped the girls before killing them and Reek was the one who raped the corpses. That's a nugget of knowledge I really didn't need to retain.

I'm glad other people see Jojen for the little creep that he is.

So, Stevron Frey was said to have wounds that were not thought to be serious yet he died days later in his tent. I wonder if his grandson Black Walder actually killed him, since we learn later he's suspected of being willing to kill his relatives to move up the line of succession as well as seducing his father's or brothers' wives and his female cousins. As for the Walders Frey, there have been characters who had to be reminded they were in mourning or who didn't mourn a family member, but I don't recall any characters, who are not even kinslayers themselves, being so gleeful about a family member's death. They're both such little shits in their own way, and Stevron seemed like a relatively good Frey from what little we saw in the previous book. I remember Robb thought he was the most reasonable of the bunch, though he was probably kidding himself by thinking his marriage to Jeyne wouldn't be such a big deal if Stevron was still leading the Frey forces.

I also liked getting to know Alebelly, Mikken, and Chayle before they died. Interesting that the septon was a native northerner from the White Harbor area.

[nodorothyparker]

The Freys really are the epitome of the idea that we can treat members of our family like shit to the point of rejoicing at their deaths because it moves us up a notch in the 50 or so we'd need to be in line for succession, but don't anyone outside the family dare dishonor or laugh at us.  George deserves a certain amount of credit in their writing because none of the POV characters seem to take them at all seriously to the point of sometimes stopping just short of open ridicule.  It makes the sucker punch of the Red Wedding so much worse because it comes at the hands of a family that has mostly been treated as a standing joke throughout the story.

[Avaleigh]

I have noticed that one of the Frey wards, Big Walder I think, is slightly better at faking it when it comes to at least pretending to be a decent person. Growing up at the Twins seems like it must be the most dog eat dog environment. Only growing up at the Dreadfort or anywhere on the Iron Islands seems worse. 

[benteen]

The Freys are awful.  Ser Stevron seems to be one of the better ones but even he allows his handicapped son to be used as his father's fool.  That's a direct contrast to the Starks, who treat Hodor will respect and give him a productive job that he can handle. 

 

Oddly enough, Hodor's real name is Walder.

 

It's mentioned that Robb's squire Olyvar Frey was one of the better ones too.

Edited February 25, 2016 by benteen

[Lady S.]

Growing up at the Twins seems like it must be the most dog eat dog environment. Only growing up at the Dreadfort or anywhere on the Iron Islands seems worse.

I like to think that's why Fat Walda was so happy to be Roose's wife. Being married to a soulless weirdo is still better than living at the Twins, but that was before she had to live with Ramsay.

 

The Freys are awful.  Ser Stevron seems to be one of the better ones but even he allows his handicapped son to be used as his father's fool.  That's a direct contrast to the Starks, who treat Hodor will respect and give him a productive job that he can handle. 

 

Oddly enough, Hodor's real name is Walder.

 

It's mentioned that Robb's squire Olyvar Frey was one of the better ones too.

Ouch, I forgot that that particular Aegon was Stevron's son. But then there's Big Walder weirdly saying that "Aegon and all his sons" would be next after Ryman's line.

 

Perwyn Frey, who has been escorting Catelyn in her travels here, was Olyvar and Roslin's full brother and was also absent from the Red Wedding.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion VIII

 

Varys is warming his hands over a brazier while he tells the small council about Renly's murder. Cersei wants to know who's responsible and Varys admits that he's heard a lot of stories but doesn't know for certain. One man claims that Renly was killed by a member of his Rainbow Guard. One woman claims that Stannis did the deed with his magic sword. There are several men who are certain that a woman killed Renly but are unable to agree on the identity of the woman. It's even suggested that Catelyn Stark might have been involved.

 

Cersei is not happy and tells Varys that he doesn't have to tell them about every ridiculous rumor that he's heard. Varys says that Cersei pays him well for these sorts of rumors. Cersei clarifies that Varys is paid for the truth and if he can't handle that then the small council might end up losing another member. Varys goes into giggle mode and says that Tyrion and Cersei won't have much of a small council left at the rate they're going.

 

Littlefinger says that the realm can probably survive being short on a few councillors. Varys asks Littlefinger if he isn't concerned that he might be the next council member to be dismissed, but Littlefinger seems confident that he can outlast Varys. Varys laughs at this and suggests that he and Petyr might end up being brothers on the Wall together. Cersei says that this might all happen sooner than Varys likes if he doesn't come up with something useful to say. Tyrion thinks his sister looks like she's fully prepared to have Varys castrated once more.

 

Tyrion has heard enough and says that they have to assume that Stannis was behind Renly's murder since he was the one who had the most to gain. Tyrion is disappointed in this news and had been hoping that the Baratheons would decimate each other in battle.

 

Tyrion asks about what has become of Renly's host and Varys says that most of the lords have gone over to Stannis. Littlefinger says he'd wager that the Florents were the first in line to bend the knee, and Varys confirms the truth of this. Tyrion asks about those who didn't join with Stannis and is told that they include Loras Tyrell, Randyll Tarly, and Mathis Rowan.

 

Loras took a fifth of Renly's knights with him when he departed and was so upset over Renly's murder that he killed three of Renly's guards, including Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce. Plus, Storm's End is still being held in Renly's name by Ser Cortnay Penrose.

 

Tyrion sees an opportunity and thinks if they can win Loras Tyrell over to their cause that Mace will come along in addition to however many bannermen. He points out that some of the people who've gone over to Stannis can't be too fond of him or they'd have started out on his side in the first place. Cersei is skeptical that these men will find Team Lannister any more lovable but Tyrion says they should be able to give these men multiple reasons to prefer Joffrey to Stannis. . .if they move fast.

 

Littlefinger suggests bribing men with land, castles, and titles and Tyrion thinks this will work for some of the lesser lords but that it won't enough to sway Highgarden. Tyrion says that they should take a lesson from Renly and try to seal a deal with Highgarden via marriage. Varys sees where Tyrion is going with this and correctly guesses that Tyrion wants Joffrey to marry Margaery Tyrell. Cersei objects that Joffrey is already betrothed to Sansa, but Tyrion doesn't see any advantage to Joffrey being married to a girl whose father is a dead traitor.

 

Littlefinger mentions that Joffrey can be told about how much wealthier the Tyrells are than the Starks. He says that Margaery is pretty too so that should help. Cersei says that Joffrey is too young to care about Margaery being pretty and Tyrion finds this hard to believe. He says that he was married at Joffrey's age and Cersei replies that Tyrion shamed them all with that sorry episode. She says that Joffrey is made of "finer stuff" than Tyrion. Tyrion thinks this is bullshit and points out how Joffrey ordered Boros Blount to strip Sansa naked in front of a room of people. Cersei defends Joffrey and explains that he was angry with Sansa.

 

Tyrion thinks the incident with Sansa was all about Joffrey needing to get laid and decides that he wants to find some time to bring his nephew to Chataya's. He's already told Varys to find out when the Hound won't be with Joffrey so that he can make this happen. Varys said that if he didn't know any better he'd suspect that Tyrion wanted to do Joffrey harm. Tyrion's reply is that he only wants to get his nephew to love him.

 

Tyrion tells the small council that a marriage with Margaery Tyrell might be the only way that Joffrey will live to see his wedding night. Littlefinger says that Sansa might have a sweet body but Margaery would be bringing fifty thousand swords with her in addition to all of the strength of Highgarden. Varys agrees with Tyrion and Littlefinger that making an alliance with the Tyrells seems like the best move.

 

Cersei says that Joffrey is too proud to want to have Renly's leftovers and will never agree to the idea. Tyrion says that it doesn't matter if Joffrey agrees or not since Cersei is his regent and Tyrion is his Hand. Cersei tells them to make the offer but cautions that there's going to be hell to pay if Joffrey doesn't like Margaery.

 

Tyrion says that they'll need to make their offer to Loras before he's had a chance to cool down, so the discussion turns to who the best person will be to send. Tyrion wants Cersei to go and Cersei wants Tyrion to go but neither is willing so Littlefinger jumps in and explains why he would be the best choice. Tyrion doesn't really like the idea of Littlefinger going but can't think of a better alternative. They haggle for a bit over what sort of escort Littlefinger should have and decide to have one of the Redwyne twins returned as a gesture of good faith.

 

Littlefinger asks for gold so that he can hand out the bribes that were discussed earlier and tells Tyrion that he wants his commission to be made in writing so that Mace Tyrell doesn't question his authority. He agrees to leave for Bitterbridge before dawn and says he trusts that he'll be properly rewarded for his efforts upon his return.

 

Cersei asks Littlefinger what it is he wants and Littlefinger replies that he'll have to give it some thought.

 

Once Tyrion and Cersei are alone she asks him how his chain is coming along. He tells her that it grows longer, link by link. He says they should be thankful that Cortnay Penrose is just as stubborn as Stannis is since Stannis won't march until he's taken Storm's End.

 

Cersei tells Tyrion that she's come to value his help even if they don't always agree when it comes to policy. She thanks him and apologizes for speaking harshly to him in the past. Tyrion shrugs and tells her that she's said nothing that requires forgiveness. Cersei jokes that Tyrion must only be talking about today and they both laugh. She kisses him on his brow and leaves Tyrion at a loss for words as she walks away.

 

Tyrion asks Bronn if that really just happened and says that Cersei hasn't given him a kiss since he was six or seven years old and even then it was on a dare from Jaime. Bronn says that maybe Cersei has finally noticed how charming Tyrion is.

 

"No," Tyrion said. "No, the woman is hatching something. Best find out what, Bronn. You know I hate surprises."

Edited February 26, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Funny that Cersei is the one who is resistant to ending Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey. 

 

The memory of Tyrion thinking about Jaime daring Cersei to kiss him sounds like Jaime and Cersei would have been younger than actually they were. 

 

I liked the moment where Tyrion and Cersei both make a half hearted attempt to get the other out of King's Landing. It shows too another difference between the Lannisters and the Starks. We see that Joffrey isn't present at any of the meetings of the small council. When I compare how involved Bran is with the running of Winterfell in comparison with Joffrey running anything it's obvious who's being groomed for leadership in a more effective way. If the Starks were in King's Landing with this opportunity, is there any doubt that Catelyn would be willing to go see Loras personally and would be okay with her brother being the one to stay behind with her son? Even when things are relatively okay between Tyrion and Cersei, neither trusts the other for a second.

 

Cersei is the worst. So she did hear about what Joffrey did to Sansa and she does't give a shit. Ugh. 

 

It sucks that both Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce lost their lives because Loras wanted somebody to take his anger out on. I wonder if Loras knows now that they were innocent. 

 

The mental image of Varys and Littlefinger on the Wall together was amusing. 

 

I could feel how excited Littlefinger got at the idea of Sansa not marrying Joffrey. When he comes back from meeting with the Tyrells is this when he thinks to ask Cersei if he can marry Sansa? I had Harrenhal in my head when he said he'd think about it, but now I'm guessing that he was thinking about Sansa here. 

 

I didn't remember that one of the Redwyne twins got returned. I wonder what made Tyrion decide which one. That has to suck for the one being left behind. 

 

Too bad Catelyn couldn't have talked to Mace before the Lannisters did. There are possibilities in a Robb/Margaery match.