The West Wing Season Two: What's Next?

[AriAu]

No one in the Bartlett White House ever really had any use for the extreme Christian Right, despite the show going out of its way to demonstrate that President Bartlett was a devout Catholic himself.  Devout, but tolerant of other people, which I think was the key.

 

It is one of the keys to Bartlet and a lesson that Sorkin was trying to teach to...I don't know, either the American public (some of whom were watching) or the Christian Right....who were not watching anyways. Among the demons Bartlet had to struggle with, was balancing his faith (he was going to be a priest....until he met Abby-one of the great sequences) with what was best for the American people as a whole. See Take This Sabbath Day and the Pilot as the most obvious examples.

 

Who among us doesn't have someone in our life that we wouldn't love to smack down in just that way - super articulately, in front of an audience, and in a position of authority so secure that they really can't fight back? I know I do.  It's not my best quality, but there it is anyway.

 

As to his arrogance, to quote Sam quoting Toby...It's a gift that they're irreversibly convinced that he's arrogant 'cause now he can be." And therefore, it is at least politically ok (from a polling standpoint) to knock some bodies down!

 

[Kohola3]

Who among us doesn't have someone in our life that we wouldn't love to smack down in just that way - super articulately, in front of an audience, and in a position of authority so secure that they really can't fight back? I know I do.  It's not my best quality, but there it is anyway.

 

Well said.  I cannot abide fake "experts" whose "expertise" seem to align with their personal beliefs.  And don't even get me started on televangelists....Oh, to have the opportunity to knock a few of them down a few pegs.

[Guest]

Part of why it bothered me is that it was essentially a sucker punch. Even if she had wanted to debate, there was such a power imbalance that she had no opportunity to do so.

[jaytee1812]

I think that's possibly why they had her sit down. To show she's not intimidated by the power imbalance. She doesn't answer back because she has nothing to say.

[Guest]

Shibboleth is a complicated episode for me. I love the immigration plot line and the plot with Leo's sister. I dislike the turkey plot and the knife plot. So I don't know how I feel about the episode overall.

[Kohola3]

The knife plot brought me to tears.  Different strokes (no pun intended).

[Melancholy]

Meanwhile,  I don't like the knife plot- too sappy, overly annoying to Charlie to get the Bartlet knife, it seems kind of sexist that Bartlet passed on this Bartlet family heirloom to Charlie because he didn't have sons (although, I suppose, that sentiment is more understandable after Charlie was shot at for getting too close to the Bartlet family). 

 

However, I do love the turkey plot. I think it's so funny and cute. I love that it covers this genuine yearly White House tradition that's so silly but makes the papers every year. It's so CJ Cregg for her to get so attached to the turkeys that she can't bear killing either of them. I also love the Chinese Christian refugee plot and the Leo's sister plot. It's a great ep, as far as I'm concerned- I'm just not wild about the knife plot. Also:

 

MRS. LANDINGHAM: Sir, why don't you use the Intercom?

BARTLET: 'Cause...

MRS. LANDINGHAM: 'Cause you don't know how to use the Intercom.

BARTLET: I was standing at the door.

MRS. LANDINGHAM: Maybe after the ceremony, you could get one of the fourth graders to come in and show you how to use the Intercom.

 

(It's made even better because of the intercom joke call back in Two Cathedrals.)

[Guest]

Noel packs quite the punch. Wow. Great episode, but very emotionally wearing.

[BW Manilowe]

Meanwhile, I don't like the knife plot- too sappy, overly annoying to Charlie to get the Bartlet knife, it seems kind of sexist that Bartlet passed on this Bartlet family heirloom to Charlie because he didn't have sons (although, I suppose, that sentiment is more understandable after Charlie was shot at for getting too close to the Bartlet family).

However, I do love the turkey plot. I think it's so funny and cute. I love that it covers this genuine yearly White House tradition that's so silly but makes the papers every year. It's so CJ Cregg for her to get so attached to the turkeys that she can't bear killing either of them. I also love the Chinese Christian refugee plot and the Leo's sister plot. It's a great ep, as far as I'm concerned- I'm just not wild about the knife plot. Also:

MRS. LANDINGHAM: Sir, why don't you use the Intercom?

BARTLET: 'Cause...

MRS. LANDINGHAM: 'Cause you don't know how to use the Intercom.

BARTLET: I was standing at the door.

MRS. LANDINGHAM: Maybe after the ceremony, you could get one of the fourth graders to come in and show you how to use the Intercom.

(It's made even better because of the intercom joke call back in Two Cathedrals.)

I still haven't begun a rewatch with my new Complete Series set, but I thought Charlie was shot at as much because he was black, & in an interracial romance with Zoey Bartlet, as just because he got "too close" to the Bartlets. I thought the motive for the shooting was more than "he got too close" to the Bartlets.

deaja: In case you weren't aware yet, Bradley Whitford won the Emmy Award for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Drama for his work in S2 of the show (at the Emmys which Ellen DeGeneres hosted & which were rescheduled, [what felt] like, 9 zillion times in the aftermath of 9/11 & finally held in early November, 2011). The eps he submitted to the Emmys, as examples of his eligible work, for consideration were In the Shadow of Two Gunmen (I think both parts) & Noel.

Edited January 11, 2016 by BW Manilowe

[Melancholy]

I still haven't begun a rewatch with my new Complete Series set, but I thought Charlie was shot at as much because he was black, & in an interracial romance with Zoey Bartlet, as just because he got "too close" to the Bartlets. I thought the motive for the shooting was more than "he got too close" to the Bartlets.

 

I meant "understandable" as in "understandable to me". For my money, without the shooting, Charlie is just an early-college boyfriend to Zoey who happens to work for her father. Nowhere near family with no assurances that this relationship will last. In that case, he shouldn't get the Bartlet Family Thanksgiving Knife because it's a special family heirloom that's been passed down through the generations since the Revolutionary War and any of the Bartlet girls could be rightfully upset that they're not getting the knife, if it was always presented in Thanksgiving as a big part of their heritage as a historic New England family. 

 

The shooting makes it more understandable to me- and gives the Bartlet girls a reason to not protest that Zoey's college boyfriend got the knife. If Charlie was punished with an attempted lynching for getting close to Zoey, it feels more reasonable for Jed to give Charlie the knife to really affirm his closeness, despite the threats of white supremacists. And I think that was behind the "I'm proud of you, Charlie"- it's in large part how Charlie was strong enough to carry on with his job instead of being intimidating by a shooting even though it had every reason to trigger Charlie so soon after his mother's passing. 

[Guest]

I hadn't thought of the shooting in relation to the knife, so that's a good point.  I was more annoyed that it seemed like "Hey, I don't have a son, and a woman could never carve meat!"  Also, I'm annoyed IRL by how many people in power were born into families of power, etc. so I don't like the reminder that the Bartlett family is definitely part of that network.  

 

I'm glad he won an Emmy! Those are great episodes for him. Prior to this July, I thought of him only as Carmen's loser dad from Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. ;)  He also had a small role in Saving Mr. Banks, but he wasn't able to shine like he did in TWW.

[Melancholy]

Yes, I think the gift is understandable based on the shooting. Without the shooting, it really just feels like Jed saying, "Unfortunately, I have three girls and they, obviously, can't carve meat. So Charlie, my daughter's college boyfriend of a year and personal aid of mine- you deserve our family carving knife given to the Bartlet family by Paul Revere. Yes, I pull it out every year during the holidays as an important family heirloom, but heck, my daughters just have to suck it because they weren't born boys." With the shooting, I understand why Jed felt compelled to really make a grand gesture to show Charlie that he's important to the family and to him and attempted lynching aside, Jed really wants to make him part of the Paul Revere, origins of the United States story that black people are generally excluded from because unlike old white families, old black families never got the chance to accumulate property and influence since the Revolutionary War. It's actually part of the theme of Shibboleth- these people who truly embody the traditional themes of Thanksgiving and the holidays but always get second-guessed as part of the flattering All-American white portrait because they're just too different (Chinese Christians as modern pilgrims, black families, the probability that CJ was excluded from the traditional single guys get together for football on Thanksgiving, non-Christian students who want religion or non-religious freedom by eliminating school prayer) or they're off-center from current laws (but then also, students trying to pray)- with the turkey as the comedic "close but no cigar for a teensy flaw- "Yeah, and I chose Eric because Troy doesn't like to be touched, which, surely we're not gonna execute him for."

 

Yes, the Bartlet family is definitely part of the power continuum of white, powerful families. However, I think that injustice is pretty baked into the character of Jed Bartlet, as reason to be cynical on his pre-presidential biography necessarily making him a completely deserved pick for the Presidency and emphasizing that he owed a lot to, particularly Leo, for his win and his tutoring to be a good President (since he practically ran unopposed for his New Hampshire offices), some of his insularity and hostility to "new people", some lack of empathy for people who had to struggle to get by, and some, if not prejudice, than gross insensitivity when he felt cornered and upset

(right after Toby discussed how his NY Judaism inhibited from being good for all timezones, Jed shutting down Toby's admittedly inappropriate baiting on Bartlet's psyche with "I don't know what the hell goes on in a Brooklyn shrink's office but get it the hell out of my house!".)

 

Brad Whitford is really exceptional in Transparent, for which he also won an Emmy as a guest actor. Actually while Billy Madison is an embarrassing movie, I thought BW was hilarious in it- out-comedying Adam Sandler right off the stage.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Melancholy

[Kohola3]

The last thing that Bartlet says to Charlie in the exchange about the knif is "I am proud of you".  I think it was a gesture meant to convey his appreciation of what Charlie means to him as a person, a body man, an young man raising a sister, a young man who tithes, a young man with a great future ahead of him of whom Bartlet is very fond and thinks of as a son.. I honestly don't thing the shooting OR Zoey have anything whatsoever to do with that gift.  But that's just my opinion.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Kohola3

[Bastet]

The knife story line has always brought that episode down for me.  "This has been in my family for over 200 years, but I'm putting an end to that -- it's been passed down from father to son and I only have daughters" is the takeaway for me, which obviously doesn't sit well, and I also find all the shit Bartlet put Charlie through to find a replacement knife just as uncomfortable.  Like it's some grand game to sit back and watch the poor assistant run all over the place trying to guess at what he wants, rather than just giving him the knife as a gift and asking him to pick up a replacement (and telling him what the hell he wants as that replacement).

 

I don't really remember the plot with the asylum seekers, but I have a clear - and delightful - recollection of pretty much every frame with C.J. and the turkeys. 

[DebbieW]

That's how I took it, as well.  The Bartlet girls were probably going to inherit lots of bits of family history, but Charlie had become like a son to him separate of his relationship with Zoey.

 

Edited to clarify because two of us were posting at the same time that I was picking up on Kohola3's assessment.

Edited January 11, 2016 by DebbieW

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

The presumption was that Charlie was going to become his son through marriage so I didn't mind that Jed gave him the knife. Actually, I thought that was what the show was trying to forecast. Where other's were seeing sexiest, I was aww like a sentimental fool.

 

As to the tradition of passing the knife on to sons, it didn't start with Jed. It is a family tradition. Giving it to Charlie was akin to giving it to Zoey (what's yours is mine etc) but the direct handoff recognized Charlie and Jed's relationship in itself.

[Bastet]

Why would he assume they were going to get married?  They weren't engaged, and were quite young. 

 

The Zoey connection never crossed my mind as a reason he was giving him the knife; I assume it was based on their relationship, not the relationship Charlie had with his daughter.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Why would he assume they were going to get married?  They weren't engaged, and were quite young. 

 

The Zoey connection never crossed my mind as a reason he was giving him the knife; I assume it was based on their relationship, not the relationship Charlie had with his daughter.

 

Oops. Season 7 has been on my mind.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Melancholy]

I think Bastet means whether Charlie/Zoey were on the road to marriage by Shibboleth. By Shibboleth, Charlie and Zoey had just been together for a year and Zoey was still a sophomore in college. For that matter, Jed and Charlie had just been working together for a year and a half. I make my piece with the gift because of the shooting. Independent of that, I'd think it was an insult to the Bartlet daughters. It's not like Jed giving Charlie an old copy of the Constitution, which his father gave to him. Sure, girls read the Constitution too- but that's more a valuable but not-frequently used books, specifically great for a young person entering law school while none of Jed's girls went to law school. However, that knife was produced by Paul Revere and had been in Bartlet family that long. It had to have been featured at every Christmas and Thanksgiving family dinner, to start, with I'm sure Jed ceremonially carving the turkey or ham with much fanfare and a long speech of Paul Revere or knife trivia. Absent the shooting, that kind of gift really is a family gift. Jed was trying to impart knowledge and appreciation of carving knives to Charlie in the wild goose chase- but ironically, I would imagine that it imbues an understanding of more modern knife brands but probably, not the personal sentiment that the Bartlet girls grew up attaching to their family heirlooms. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by Melancholy

[Bastet]

I think Bastet means whether Charlie/Zoey were on the road to marriage by Shibboleth.

 

Yes, I apparently misread that post, as I took it to mean one of the reasons Jed gave the knife to Charlie was that he assumed Charlie and Zoey would marry some day, so that giving it to Charlie would still keep it in the family.  So when I asked why he'd assume they would get married, I meant at the time of Shibboleth.  Sorry for the confusion.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Bastet

[Guest]

If your post contains discussion on what happens past the end of Season 2, kindly edit it. Season threads are for that specific seasons and as new people continue to find the show (I hope!), we don't want to spoil them more than we can help.

Thanks!

[eyebleach]

I've always thought of the knife scene too as having nothing to do with Zoey and everything to do with his love and admiration for the man Charlie was becoming.  This wasn't a kid born of privledge, from a great school etc.  He worked hard in a failing school system, he was smart, he was capable, he cared for his sister when some kids would have just bailed after their mother's death. I also loved the knife scene.  One of my favs.  

 

Noel is likely my most favorite TWW episode tied with Celestial Navigation. I'm a Josh girl through and through.

[Guest]

Bartlett's Third State of the Union is a pretty awesome episode! I think I missed the last ten or so minutes on my first watch.

[Guest]

I audibly cheered when I realized the next episode in my rewatch is 17 People. I love this episode. Toby is a genius.

[Guest]

Jed's a bit of an ass in it though, isn't he?

And I hate the Josh and Donna subplot. Good gravy, she can be ridiculous.

[Moose135]

Jed's a bit of an ass in it though, isn't he?.

 

Which is part of his charm.

 

And I hate the Josh and Donna subplot. Good gravy, she can be ridiculous.

 

A little bit, but it's a classic Donna/Josh scenario.  And "If you were in an accident, I wouldn't stop for red lights" is such a great line.

[Melancholy]

Hmm, I thought Donna was certainly ridiculous in the past to leave an increasingly promising Presidential campaign to go back to an ex-boyfriend that treated her like dirt and wrecked her life. However, I actually didn't think she was ridiculous in the episode-proper. I think she was totally justified to be angry about Josh sending her flowers forevermore to humiliate her for one bad choice in the past, and especially since Josh unknowingly was making fun of Donna not just for a bad choice, but something that Donna realized was a bad choice after Dr. Free-Ride broke her heart again with some stunning douchebaggery. 

 

This is actually a pretty good ep for S1-4 Donna, by my standards where I frequently find her ridiculous. 

 

In Jed's defense, he did apologize at the end of the ep. And I think it was sympathetic that clearly his defenses were up and then, aggravated because Toby didn't react to hearing that Jed had MS like a concerned friend but instead like a betrayed citizen/employee verging on prosecutor. 

[Kohola3]

And I think it was sympathetic that clearly his defenses were up and then, aggravated because Toby didn't react to hearing that Jed had MS like a concerned friend but instead like a betrayed citizen/employee verging on prosecutor.

 

I thought it was a classic defensive reaction to knowing he was ten shades of wrong and Toby was calling him on it.  The best offense is a good defense and he certainly had his righteous indignation face on.

[Guest]

Jed improved by the end, but he was pretty far out of line for most of it, I felt.

[Guest]

I just watched 18th and Potomac. :(  I didn't realize it was the episode it was until I saw Mrs. L talking to Charlie.  So sad.  Overall, it was a great episode though. Strong performance by everyone.

[Danny Franks]

Regarding a quote in the No Spoilers thread about Josh/Donna. I don't think there is a single moment where I ever wanted them together, and I genuinely don't get why so many people went crazy over the pairing. Bradley Whitford has charm, but as Josh, it's a really douchey, superior charm that usually made Donna look like a fool. If that's what you want from your relationships then... that's up to you, folks. They just never felt like equals, in any way. And not just because Josh was her boss.

 

Sam and Ainsley, on the other hand, I really liked. Two characters who were clearly equally smart and articulate (except for when meeting the President, Ainsley), who came from diametrically opposed political cultures, but who were not closed off enough to dismiss ideas that they didn't agree with. And I thought Rob Lowe and Emily Procter had fun, light chemistry that didn't rely on heavy handed schmaltz like "if you were in an accident, I wouldn't stop for red lights". Sadly, Sorkin got bored of Ainsley pretty quickly, and so she slowly disappeared from existence. Just like Mallory did. Just like Mandy did.

 

Is season 2 better than season 1? I just don't know. Both have some of the best hours of television I've ever watched, but both have the occasional duff one too. The build up and climax of the MS storyline in season 2 takes some beating, I have to say. You could probably fill a whole list of "Top Ten" moments from those episodes from 17 People to Two Cathedrals. I particularly love the ending of 17 People, where Toby is in the room with Sam, Josh et al, not really listening to their words, while the rhythmic beat of the ball bouncing off the wall repeats.

[Guest]

I never wanted Josh and Donna together until much much later.

Ainsley and Sam would have made a great couple.

[BW Manilowe]

Regarding a quote in the No Spoilers thread about Josh/Donna. I don't think there is a single moment where I ever wanted them together, and I genuinely don't get why so many people went crazy over the pairing. Bradley Whitford has charm, but as Josh, it's a really douchey, superior charm that usually made Donna look like a fool. If that's what you want from your relationships then... that's up to you, folks. They just never felt like equals, in any way. And not just because Josh was her boss.

Sam and Ainsley, on the other hand, I really liked. Two characters who were clearly equally smart and articulate (except for when meeting the President, Ainsley), who came from diametrically opposed political cultures, but who were not closed off enough to dismiss ideas that they didn't agree with. And I thought Rob Lowe and Emily Procter had fun, light chemistry that didn't rely on heavy handed schmaltz like "if you were in an accident, I wouldn't stop for red lights". Sadly, Sorkin got bored of Ainsley pretty quickly, and so she slowly disappeared from existence. Just like Mallory did. Just like Mandy did.

Is season 2 better than season 1? I just don't know. Both have some of the best hours of television I've ever watched, but both have the occasional duff one too. The build up and climax of the MS storyline in season 2 takes some beating, I have to say. You could probably fill a whole list of "Top Ten" moments from those episodes from 17 People to Two Cathedrals. I particularly love the ending of 17 People, where Toby is in the room with Sam, Josh et al, not really listening to their words, while the rhythmic beat of the ball bouncing off the wall repeats.

Ainsley slowly disappearing from existence may have been as much as, or more, because that part was only a recurring role & Emily Procter took the regular, each episode, role of CSI Calleigh Duquesne in CSI: Miami, which started its run during The West Wing's run on NBC, as it was because of your feeling Sorkin got bored with the Ainsley character.

And Mandy disappeared from existence by mutual agreement between the actress, Moira Kelly, & the showrunners when the actress left the show & the character was written out, without explanation, at the end of S1. Most people who watched the show then felt the Mandy Hampton character didn't work & wasn't a good fit with the others. Apparently the actress who played her & the showrunners agreed as well. So, again, I don't really think she "disappeared from existence" because Sorkin was bored with her.

And I also disagree on this regarding the Mallory character. Like Ainsley, Mallory was meant to be a recurring character. And her not being around a lot may have also been because of other roles Allison Smith, the actress who played her, took on outside of Mallory.

Sorkin may not have always written well for his women characters, but I don't think it was because he became bored with them.

Edited January 31, 2016 by BW Manilowe

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Sorkin may not have always written well for his women characters, but I don't think it was because he became bored with them.

 

I think Sorkin had ADD.  He would be all about a character, build a great narrative and then (I imagine) be distracted by something shiny and then either stop writing about a character or worse seemed to stop caring.

 

I liked Mallory but I think it would have gotten a little cute for Charlie and Sam dating their bosses daughters.  I think every WW fan has a list of candidates we owuld want more of:  Lionel Tribbey, Ainsley Hayes, Mendoza, etc.

[Bastet]

I needed a quick pick-me-up, so I watched the scene where C.J. falls into the pool and Toby asks her to join the campaign.  It is perfection.  Allison and Richard together are my jam, and everything about that scene is great.  Blind C.J. falling into the pool, of course, but it really only gets better from there.  The way Toby laughs (something we hardly ever see, but it's so open and free when it's with her, like when she throws the basketball through the window), and the way he puts his hands on his hips when she tells him to shut up.  "Avert your eyes."  The way she stomps up to the pool house to get a towel.  "They said you'd been fired.  Were you stealing things?"  A nice shot of those great legs.  "So this would be less."  And then when she asks if he really thinks she can do it, and asks if Jed Bartlet is a good man.  Their body language is so great. 

 

It worked like a charm; I am in a much better mood now.

[Melancholy]

I needed a quick pick-me-up, so I watched the scene where C.J. falls into the pool and Toby asks her to join the campaign.  It is perfection.  Allison and Richard together are my jam, and everything about that scene is great.  Blind C.J. falling into the pool, of course, but it really only gets better from there.  The way Toby laughs (something we hardly ever see, but it's so open and free when it's with her, like when she throws the basketball through the window), and the way he puts his hands on his hips when she tells him to shut up.  "Avert your eyes."  The way she stomps up to the pool house to get a towel.  "They said you'd been fired.  Were you stealing things?"  A nice shot of those great legs.  "So this would be less."  And then when she asks if he really thinks she can do it, and asks if Jed Bartlet is a good man.  Their body language is so great. 

 

It worked like a charm; I am in a much better mood now.

Aw, great description of a favorite scene!

C.J.: Roger Becker dropped from third most powerful person in Hollywood to ninth most powerful person in Hollywood.

TOBY: Does he still make the playoffs, or is the cutoff line...

Or undercutting the IS HE A GOOD MAN? Snuffy G. Walden music swelling music at the end:

C.J.: Then, let's go into the house so I can change my clothes and we can talk about it.

C.J. starts walking, still wringing out her hair.

TOBY: C.J.?

C.J.: Yeah?

TOBY: House is over there.

C.J.: Okay.

[Moose135]

That is a great scene!

[Kohola3]

One of my all time favorite scenes.  And one of the few where we see Toby laughing.

[Bastet]

And to think, it originally didn't exist.  (Aaron had written a scene in which Leo was the one who went to get CJ, Richard said it should be Toby, and Aaron re-wrote it.)

[eyebleach]

Oh my - that scene would have been all wrong with Leo!  

[Judois]

Ugh! I hate Ainsley in "17 People" and all her idiot ranting about the ERA. I usually like her but I actively disliked her in this episode. 

[twinkietwin94]

Watching In The Shadow of the Gunmen: Part 1, have watched it numerous times and every damn time I cry when they show Toby finding Josh

[twinkietwin94]

This episode always leaves me with so many wonderings

• how the heck scared to you think the VP would be when the secret service bursts in a rushes him out like that
• is there really nothing in place that automatically puts the VP in power if the Pres is incapacitated, or is the problem bc he wasn't immediately unconscious? did they really expect them to have a copy of the letter there for him to sign?
• how often does the hospital do a drill to prepare for something like this
• what an amazing person the anesthesiologist was to keep the MS to himself
• Donna's face just gets me every time, all plays a nice parallel to later in the series

[twinkietwin94]

I'd forgotten just how much I like the format of the Stackhouse Filibuster episode, love the e-mails to their parents. I also love Stackhouse and knowing the reason makes me enjoy the episode even more. Then again I always wonder why it takes the WH staff so long to find out why he's filibustering no one thought to find the reason why he's doing it, no one thought it might be personal until Donna sees the B-roll?

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Rewatching for the 4th or 5th time....but it's been awhile since I have seen "In the Shadow of 2 Gunman" and it nearly had me in tears.  Which is silly.  

[Moose135]

2 hours ago, SingleMaltBlonde said:

Which is silly.  

Not at all, I can't count the number of times I've watched the series, and some of those episodes still get to me.

[twinkietwin94]

On 10/7/2016 at 5:49 PM, SingleMaltBlonde said:

Rewatching for the 4th or 5th time....but it's been awhile since I have seen "In the Shadow of 2 Gunman" and it nearly had me in tears.  Which is silly.  

nope nope nope, I cry every single time, as soon as Toby finds Josh I'm a goner

[Kohola3]

Knowing what is coming just cannot block the surge of feelings from that episode.  It's just so wonderfully acted, so real.  The look on Toby's face, his hesitation and then stuttering cry for help.  Just so, so real.

[ProudMary]

I've been doing a slow re-watch in conjunction with listening to The West Wing Weekly podcast; so one episode per week.  This week's episode was S2, Ep. 5,  And It's Surely to Their Credit.   Something's been bothering me about the sub-plot of Josh owing over $50,000 to the hospital for non-insurance covered, out of network expenses related to his being shot at Rosslyn and Sam trying to convince Josh to sue the KKK and other hate groups.  Why is Josh on the hook for $50K anyway?  He was at Rosslyn in his capacity as Deputy Chief of Staff.  He was working at his job.  Why would medical expenses caused by an "injury" sustained during the performance of his job not be covered by Workers' Compensation?  (Federal Employees' Compensation.)  

[kassygreene]

If I Remember Correctly, his insurance was an HMO.  And he went to an out-of-network hospital (not sure I buy this as he lived in DC and GW Hospital is in DC, just a few blocks from the White House and with its own Metro stop).  But HMOs were really bitchy about not getting prior approval on the ER you went to, even if you were unconscious.  There's a rather notorious case in Northern California about 20 years ago with Kaiser, where a woman who wasn't feeling very well kept trying to get permission to go to the emergency room, and Kaiser said no, make an appointment with your regular doctor.

She was having a heart attack.  She died.  Kaiser's position was that she should have been more pushy about getting permission, or gone anyway (and deal later with having the claim denied because it was without sanction). 

Insurance companies, especially HMOs, suck.