Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Starfish35]

Legends of Tomorrow Boss Teases Finale's Fights 'Across History,' Weighs In on TV's Time Travel Craze

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TVLINE | We’ve seen many fight sequences and gizmos over the course of the season. Is there anything particularly cool and new in the finale that maybe we haven’t quite seen before?
There are a few things. I think a couple of people are going to display some new powers, and as we’ve sort of intimated, the epic fight against Savage is wholly unique. I’ve got to give a shout out to Kevin Mock, our editor, who really put together, I would say, one of the most unique sequences that you’ve seen on a time travel show — because it’s not only epic but it is taking place literally across history.

TVLINE | “A time travel show” — of which there are many now!
Yeah. I mean, it’s crazy. [ABC, CBS and Fox all have new time travel series premiering next season.] It’s very, very interesting. I wish all those showrunners luck. This time travel thing is not for the faint of heart.

TVLINE | Well as I tweeted to Kryptonsite’s Craig Byrne, let’s hope they don’t all have different sets of rules, because that’ll be impossible to keep track of.
It’s funny. Legends gets a fair share of criticism from people who are like, “Wow, they’re really fast and loose with the time travel rules.” To that I say, “Yeah, guilty as charged.” I guess I watch television very differently than a lot of other people do. When I watch a time travel show, I’m not watching it to see if the rules are being followed. I don’t understand the way a lot of people watch TV these days, as if it’s some game of “Gotcha!”

I remember during the Legends pilot, we had a character make a Darth Vader reference and someone tweeted me, “You already screwed up. It’s 1975 and Star Wars didn’t come out until 1977.” I was like, “Yeah… the scene you’re talking about takes place in 2016, so get off my back.” [Laughs] We’re literally just 20 minutes into the pilot and people are already trying to play this game of “Gotcha.” It’s like, “Are you watching television or are you trying to catch [a mistake]? How is this fun for anybody?”

TVLINE | What percent of the finale is showdown and what percent is epilogue?
Great question. I will say it’s very deceptive. What’s interesting is that the season finale doesn’t feel like 42 minutes. It feels like we’re pushing a lot more story than you would typically get. There’s a lot of confrontation and climax but there’s a fair amount of setup and there’s also a fair amount of epilogue. There’s just so much going on in this episode.

TVLINE | How do you respond to the people who in the wake of last week’s death have said, “Oh man, I loved Snart! He was one of the three reasons I watch the show!”? [Next season, Wentworth Miller will be a series regular across all of The CW’s superhero shows.]
Well, I would say the other two reasons — whatever those are — are still on the show. I would also say that he’s not off the show. You’ll still see him next season. In fact, check out the season finale.

More at the link.

Marc sounds a little defensive here, when asked about the time travel rules.  I'm sure there are some people who are playing "gotcha", Marc, but most of us would just like it to make a little sense and not feel like you're making it up as you go along.

I wondered if Snart might not somehow show up in the finale.  Sounds like he will.  I wonder if it will be our Snart or another version.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

New powers? Did they save all the Firestorm CGI money for the finale? No one besides the boring Hawk people and Firestorm have powers. 

I actually don't care about the time travel rules, I'd rather they focus on telling a better story, they can do whatever they want the time traveling. 

[KirkB]

38 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I remember during the Legends pilot, we had a character make a Darth Vader reference and someone tweeted me, “You already screwed up. It’s 1975 and Star Wars didn’t come out until 1977.” I was like, “Yeah… the scene you’re talking about takes place in 2016, so get off my back.” [Laughs] We’re literally just 20 minutes into the pilot and people are already trying to play this game of “Gotcha.” It’s like, “Are you watching television or are you trying to catch [a mistake]? How is this fun for anybody?”

This bugs me. Who is he, or anyone really, to tell me or anyone else how to watch?

[nksarmi]

Well as the step parent to two children who are constantly looking to catch me in a mistake - I kind of get it. I also get the sense of "no that wasn't a mistake - would you like me to explain why?"

But at the same time, the Flarrowverse could benefit from a continuity editor because forgetting that Oliver speaks fluent Mandarin in season one -and thus never showing us him learning it in season three - is kind of a big deal to me.

[tessaray]

Unfortunately, even if the Hawks die in the finale, it doesn't mean they can't show up again. Though if it's anything like Laurel/Black Siren, that might make them a little more interesting.    

[MarkHB]

I think I just always assume that TV writers are making it up as they go along.  They aren't being hired to craft intricately-plotted masterpieces; they're hired to bang out pages like batshit crazy people.  And if you have an idea that sounds great when you get to Episode 17 but it contradicts something from Episode 3 -- or something from 2 seasons ago -- so what?  Go with the cooler one.  I'd even be willing to bet that there's marketing science that tells them they don't want viewers overly engaged in the show, because the ads are more effective if the viewers just kind of zone out and watch without overthinking.

[squidprincess]

Honestly, compared to the comics that the show is based on, Legends's time travel rules are remarkably coherent.  At the very least, there are some kind of rules that they're kind of, vaguely, sort of able to follow.

I am definitely curious about this "new powers" thing though.  It sounds like they're planning for other characters than Firestorm or the Hawks.  But I've no idea how that would work.  I suppose I could rationalize something like Ray inventing a new suit power, Sara having some kind of post-resurrection power, or Mick or Rip having some previously unknown Time Master type trick...

[kismet]

Oh MG... dismissive and defensive are always interesting tactics to take during interviews. Maybe people would stop trying to play "Gotcha" if you stopped being so flippant in your interactions. He makes himself a target, while also lobbing bombs at his audience. It really is an interesting relationship he has with his shows' audiences.

[Sakura12]

CW Fall Schedule.

THURSDAY
8:00-9:00 PM DC’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW
9:00-10:00 PM SUPERNATURAL (New Night)

LoT is starting in the Fall. And Team Legends become the New Time Masters?

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Now, for Legends of Tomorrow: “When heroes alone are not enough… the world needs legends. Time-traveling rogue Rip Hunter (Arthur Darvill) assembled a disparate group of both heroes and villains – including Firestorm (Victor Garber and Franz Drameh), Atom (Brandon Routh), White Canary (Caity Lotz), Hawkgirl (Ciarra Reneé), Captain Cold (Wentworth Miller), and Heatwave (Dominic Purcell) – to confront an unstoppable threat. After saving the world, the Legends of Tomorrow now are charged with protecting time – the past, present, and future – itself. This responsibility will take them across history, bringing them up against a threat unlike humanity has ever known.”

The Legends of Tomorrow finale airs Thursday at 8 p.m. ET, while Arrow airs Wednesday at 8 p.m. ET on The CW.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Sakura12

[MarkHB]

"bringing them up against a threat unlike humanity has ever known"

We've seen the Legion teased twice: when the Flash went through the vortex and we saw Supergirl and a flight ring, and when Supergirl went to the Fortress of Solitude and the flight ring was there.  Could they be facing the Time Trapper?

Another possibility: near the end of The Flash this week, Cisco saw Earth-2 being torn apart.  Could they be heading for Crisis on Infinite Earths so soon?

[kirinan]

14 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Legends of Tomorrow Boss Teases Finale's Fights 'Across History,' Weighs In on TV's Time Travel Craze

From this interview:

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TVLINE | How is the team’s morale after bidding Leonard adieu?
It’s pretty low. It wasn’t just losing Leonard. It was losing Leonard, and Kendra and Carter... 

Take "and Kendra and Carter" out of that sentence, and then maybe the 99.5% of your viewers you seem to be alienating by forcing the Hawks on them will agree with you, Mr. Guggenheim. (Yeah, I'm still a little bitter about last week's loss, although if Leonard does show up tonight, that may help. Or make me feel worse.)

But I do have to say, speaking of Mr. G's defensiveness, that I personally can see his point, because I watch TV to enjoy and escape, not to nitpick. If something bothers me, I might mention it once or twice, then I don't care anymore. Because while I'm not Susie Sunshine, to me it's exhausting to always be looking for something to criticize.

HOWEVER...sci-fi/comic book fandom viewers are, in general (IMO), of higher-than-usual intelligence than the average viewer--not to mention extremely passionate about their fandoms (as I know from Mr. kirinan, who is a major DC/Marvel/sci-fi fan). So if you're a showrunner and you want to have that type of show, criticism and arguments (reasoned and otherwise) come with the territory. If you don't want the heat, showrunner, get into reality TV or sitcoms.

Edited May 19, 2016 by kirinan

[Sakura12]

Besides Ray, I don't think the team cares all that much they lost Kendra and care even less about losing Carter. 

[squidprincess]

I think Rip, Stein, Jax and Sara probably do care about Kendra.  Even Mick has had a moment or two with Kendra.  I doubt anyone but Kendra, Rip (more out of the same general guilt that led him to get the body back earlier) and maybe Ray care about Carter though.

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, kirinan said:

But I do have to say, speaking of Mr. G's defensiveness, that I personally can see his point, because I watch TV to enjoy and escape, not to nitpick. If something bothers me, I might mention it once or twice, then I don't care anymore. Because while I'm not Susie Sunshine, to me it's exhausting to always be looking for something to criticize.

I watch TV to enjoy and escape too. That doesn't mean I won't notice when they blatantly ignore or change something from an earlier episode. It also doesn't mean it REALLY bothers me, just because I might point it out. Nitpicking, which I will admit it is, IS actually a part of the fun for me. It isn't the same as not liking it. I won't continue watching something I don't like, or have serious issues with.

[Lokiberry]

1 hour ago, MarkHB said:

"bringing them up against a threat unlike humanity has ever known"

We've seen the Legion teased twice: when the Flash went through the vortex and we saw Supergirl and a flight ring, and when Supergirl went to the Fortress of Solitude and the flight ring was there.  Could they be facing the Time Trapper?

Another possibility: near the end of The Flash this week, Cisco saw Earth-2 being torn apart.  Could they be heading for Crisis on Infinite Earths so soon?

It's the Thanagarians. Earth is being invaded by an endless army of Hawkpeople. Break out the booze.

[MarkHB]

I did notice that that announcement mentioned Ciara Renee. :)

[kirinan]

9 minutes ago, KirkB said:

I watch TV to enjoy and escape too. That doesn't mean I won't notice when they blatantly ignore or change something from an earlier episode. It also doesn't mean it REALLY bothers me, just because I might point it out. Nitpicking, which I will admit it is, IS actually a part of the fun for me. It isn't the same as not liking it. I won't continue watching something I don't like, or have serious issues with.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you, KirkB. Unfortunately, there are a number of fans (some I know personally--thank goodness, not my husband, though) who are so determined to find fault with things that they just suck all the enjoyment out of any discussion. That's the kind of nitpicking I take issue with. Sorry, I didn't mean to insult or imply.

Edited May 19, 2016 by kirinan

[Starfish35]

I'm not yet convinced (about Hawkgirl), or perhaps I'm just in denial. :)  But I recall the 2014 upfronts where the Arrow season three description included "international assassin Sara Lance" who was not a series regular and in fact was killed off in the first episode, and completely left out Laurel Lance (Katie Cassidy), who was still the ostensible leading lady at that point.  

Edited May 19, 2016 by Starfish35

[KirkB]

3 minutes ago, kirinan said:

Oh, I absolutely agree with you, KirkB. Unfortunately, there are a number of fans (some I know personally--thank goodness, not my husband, though) who are so determined to find fault with things that they just suck all the enjoyment out of any discussion. That's the kind of nitpicking I take issue with. Sorry, I didn't mean to insult or imply.

It's okay. I wasn't insulted, not by you anyway. We're good. It was the original interview, which sounded to me like someone trying to tell other people how they should watch TV I had an issue with.

[Delphi]

I really enjoy the fact that he seems very aware that Sara,  Lenny and Stein are the only reasons people are watching the show.   I love the whole cast, but those three are what I'm here for.   And honestly,  I could probably lose Stein as it took me a moment to figure out who the third person was. 

[Sakura12]

I like Stein, but I'm watching for Sara, Len and Mick. 

[Lokiberry]

14 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I like Stein, but I'm watching for Sara, Len and Mick. 

Yeah, I'm also pretty sure he was talking about those three, aka: Rogue Canary.

[MarkHB]

55 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I really enjoy the fact that he seems very aware that Sara,  Lenny and Stein are the only reasons people are watching the show.   I love the whole cast, but those three are what I'm here for.   And honestly,  I could probably lose Stein as it took me a moment to figure out who the third person was. 

 

Honestly, I'm watching for the "A-Team Does Time Travel" dynamic; who the particular players are doesn't bother me as long as it's fun.  Personally, (and this is purely a matter of personal preference) I'd hate to lose Hawkgirl because I think Ciara's hotter than Caity.

[Sakura12]

Sara's more useful than Kendra. That last episode without Kendra doing anything was one of the best episodes. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

Oh Ciara's gorgeous, no denying that.  I just find the whole Hawks storyline duller than dirt.  But I wouldn't be so eager for Hawkgirl to leave if it didn't seem that we can't have Kendra without Carter, and I think Carter is just the worst, both the actor and the character (as he's been presented here).  

If our Hawkgirl was more like JLU's Hawkgirl in personality, I'd be less eager for her to leave.  But I've come to think that Ciara just wasn't the right pick for a character with that kind of personality and fierceness.  She's very sweet, but....I wasn't looking for a "sweet" Hawkgirl.  I don't know what the comics Hawkgirls are like, but I was expecting something....not quite what we got.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

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TVLINE | How did you arrive at the DC Comics character of Rex Tyler aka Hourman for Patrick J. Adams to play?
It was basically based upon a conversation I had with [DC Comics CCO] Geoff Johns, where we were talking about the variety of different characters Patrick could play. What’s cool about Patrick’s appearance is he’s not just appearing as Hourman but he’s also appearing as a member of the Justice Society of America. So for me, it was very much like, “OK, who’s a character that I associate with the JSA? Who can show up, say his name, and I go, ‘Ohhhh, JSA —that’s cool’?” Certainly, Hourman is a key member of the JSA, at least the version of the JSA that I hold near and dear.

TVLINE | Are you feeling like Season 2 will be another contained one-season arc? Is that the formula you’re liking?
[Legends] was always designed to be this hybrid, serialized/anthology show. We always said that each year would be its own distinct movie — almost to the point that you could give each season a subtitle. So we’ve got the same objective for next year and I think it’s really cool and exciting. It will have a very clear beginning, middle and end, much the same way Season 1 did. But it’ll be constructed a little bit differently, in so far as this first season was a pilot coming off of the Arrow/Flash crossover, so the villain was already set up. We weren’t able to roll things out with the mystery that we typically like to do on the shows. This will be a bit more of a cold start, which is exciting for us.

http://tvline.com/2016/05/19/legends-of-tomorrow-season-1-finale-spoilers-hawkgirl-leaves-hourman-introduction/

More at the link above (I am having so much trouble with the edit feature).

Edited May 20, 2016 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

So from that interview, it sounds like they cast Patrick first and THEN picked his character??  Huh??  Is he a buddy or something? 

[MarkHB]

Another interview with Guggenheim.  The big news: the Thanagarians will not be the Big Bad for Season 2!

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I don't think it will be that hard to top Savage. He was a pretty ineffective villain. 

[KirkB]

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All I'll really say about the nemesis in season two is Vandal Savage looks like a walk in the park compared to what the Legends will be facing.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure figuring out how to make the bathroom work on the Waverider would be more difficult than defeating Savage. 

[Lokiberry]

Okay, the Flash just Flashpointed itself. Does anyone think it'll have any lasting effect on this show? Could this be used as a way to bring Snart back?

[Starfish35]

I don't know what to think right now.  

I do wonder if they did this as a way to bring Supergirl into the Flarrowverse, or at least to make a way to do that if CBS ended up dumping it.  

I can't imagine that they could make drastic changes to four different shows and get away with it, but they might use it to make some adjustments here and there on each of the shows.  Or it might not affect the other shows at all, I don't know.

I do think they could use it to bring back Snart.  And there was that thing Caity said at one of the cons about Sara having a new costume next season.  

I don't know.  I'm still just kind of processing it.  And not overly pleased with Barry Allan right now.

[Lokiberry]

14 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I don't know what to think right now.  

I do wonder if they did this as a way to bring Supergirl into the Flarrowverse, or at least to make a way to do that if CBS ended up dumping it.  

I can't imagine that they could make drastic changes to four different shows and get away with it, but they might use it to make some adjustments here and there on each of the shows.  Or it might not affect the other shows at all, I don't know.

I do think they could use it to bring back Snart.  And there was that thing Caity said at one of the cons about Sara having a new costume next season.  

I don't know.  I'm still just kind of processing it.  And not overly pleased with Barry Allan right now.

They could use it to make Sara the Black Canary somehow. Like Laurel died at the beginning of Arrow S3 or something.

[Sakura12]

I'd take them erasing Laurel ever being the Black Canary. She was never the BC for me anyway. Don't care what her name was she didn't embody the character so she wasn't the character.

However I don't think they'll do that. I think LoT exists outside of time. Sara will probably just get a new design for her suit. Maybe they should all get matching suits.

[Lokiberry]

Maybe LoT will spend all season trying to correct the timeline. Barry Allen could be the Big Bad.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Lokiberry

[tarotx]

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Maybe LoT will spend all season trying to correct the timeline. Barry Allen could be the Big Bad -Lokiberry

 

 

 

Yes please!

Edited May 25, 2016 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

If the Legends are the new Time Masters than stopping Barry Allen should be a priority. That kid is always messing around with time just because he can. Rip can go have a talk with him about how saving your family is not worth destroying the entire world! There we go that's the real reason Laurel is dead for good. Sara unlike Barry Allen is not selfish enough to destroy worlds just to get her sister back. One person is not worth billions of lives. 

[KirkB]

I don't think whatever version of Flashpoint they end up doing is going to have any effect on the other shows, and no lasting effect on Flash either. In the end all will be more or less back as it was, with maybe a few little changes here and there, like Rathaway being a good guy. Maybe when all is said and done Barry's mom will be alive rather than his dad, letting JWS show up periodically as Jay Garrick instead.

The wild card is here Supergirl. They may use this as an excuse to bring Supergirl in the Flarrowverse, but that raises all kinds of issues with me. I'd rather Kara stay in another world but with occasional visits. Otherwise, someone is going to have to explain to me why Clark and Kara just sit on their hands when, for example, there is a nuclear missile heading towards an American city or Star City is getting hit by terrorists, again. 

[Starfish35]

11 hours ago, tarotx said:

Yes please!

Yes please? Sorry, I'm confused. 

[tarotx]

33 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Yes please? Sorry, I'm confused. 

Clearly I quoted the wrong post >.<

[Starfish35]

Oh ok. Lol. 

[nksarmi]

I don't think it's going to amount to much. I was pissed for awhile but then I realized Barry didn't really accomplish much if he didn't kill Thawne (and I don't think he did). Much of what already happened in the Flarrowverse would proceed if Thawne lives. He never meant to kill Barry's mom anyway and if he's alive, he can arrange for that to happen later. And then someone mentioned that if Barry didn't focus too much, Thawne might have just killed his dad instead. So the new timeline could be that Barry grew up with no dad at all instead of two.

I think this is going to be less Flashpoint and more hey bozo, learn to be happy with what life has given you (Joe and Iris) instead of bitching about what life has taken from you (because I fully expect his parents to be either dead ala "time wants to happen" or Thawne's manipulations).

[squidprincess]

I also doubt it will amount to much, at least on Legends.  Really, the only characters currently on the show that are terribly tied into the Flash tv mythos are Firestorm and Heat Wave.  And both can plausibly still have happened even if Thawne is/remained alive.  I'd be surprised if it was acknowledged much at all when Legends comes back.

[Sakura12]

I think they should acknowledge Barry the idiot that keeps changing the past for his own gain. At least Rip was also trying to stop an immortal psychopath. Barry's motivation is just selfish. 

[Lokiberry]

I think all Legends will get out of it is a Snart that is somehow alive. If Sara gets a black costume and still calls herself "The Canary" because there was never another, I'll count that as a victory.

[kismet]

On the Mind you Surroundings thread, @Morrigan2575 explained the Flash's finale in a way that clears the path for Flash to not f*ck up Arrow - which is great. But I do think that since LoT deals with time, they do have a responsibility to at least visit Barry and give him a good smack on the head.

I do think they could utilize BA's selfishness to help bring a bigger audience to LoT, if they have Snart & LoT gang try to fix the fallout from BA's choices. Increasing the crossovers with LoT/Flash could increase the LoT ratings, which might be good for LoT.

Honestly though I'm not going to worry about the consequences of the Flash anymore on the Flarrowverse. I'm just going to hope both the Arrow & LoT writers have better stories and characters planned for their upcoming seasons that will make for enjoyable seasons, regardless of BA's selfishness. Flash may be the prized jewel of the Flarrowverse, but at the end of the day the networks want all their shows to succeed. I don't think chaining their stories & characters to one show or one character's decision is a wise marketing decision. So here is hoping logic surpasses the cool factor of having it all connected all the time.

[squidprincess]

Do we know how many episodes will be ordered for season 2?  Because if we're only getting 13-16 episodes again, I would be very annoyed that the Legends have to waste time dealing with another show's plot.  (Even though I really like the Flash.)  There's more than enough to explore with this group and the JSA.  If they really want to have the Legends involved with the clean-up, they could just pay Darvill and co. to pop up at the end of the Flash episode.

If we're getting the full 22 or 23 episode order, then I won't mind as much.  But it's still time that could be spent on the Legends characters instead.

[Sakura12]

They haven' said the episode order yet, I'm thinking that will be revealed closer to or at SDCC. 

[kismet]

If dealing with BA's stupidity builds a bigger audience and gets us a s3 or bigger episode load of LoT, I could deal with it being an every other/ every few episode thing. I put up with the Hawks & VS. At least half of the Flash characters are enjoyable and decent actors. Plus I come from Arrow, I'm not used to having a show that does not lose valuable time spent on other Flarrowverse shows. It's been over 2 years since I had the privilege of watching Arrow without it wasting its time on new shows & unwanted characters.

Edited May 25, 2016 by kismet

[squidprincess]

Arrow has more than 13-16 episodes though.

I wouldn't mind an audience bump either (assuming they stick around), but my tolerance for the plot is really going to depend on whether or not we get a full run.  We're already promised a massive crossover in December after all.