Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Sakura12]

Same, that made me less excited for the finale. I hope it's a very minor cameo. 

[Starfish35]

I'm not sure it's going to be anything major.   I think they're just going to bring her in to wrap up Sara's storyline this season, whether that's through flashback, or dealing with the possibility/temptation of bringing her back from the dead.  I think the season will end with Sara finally being able to say goodbye to Laurel and let go and move on, like Rip with his family last season.

I don't think they're going to resurrect her - I don't think they would have gone to the trouble of bringing in Dinah Drake as the new BC on Arrow if they were going that direction (and wow, just let this be my acknowledgment and eating of humble pie that I was so sooooo wrong back last summer about where they were going with the BC storyline - I was so sure it was going to be Sara....*sigh* Sorry Mark!).   I mean, they could theoretically resurrect Laurel and just keep her on LoT since she's already been replaced on Arrow, but....I don't see them doing that for a variety of reasons. *shrug*  But I might be wrong about that too - lol.

[Primal Slayer]

I know it wont be but I hope she plays a big role and gets some decent storyline time with Sara.

[Sakura12]

I was so close to not having to see Laurel again. I hope it's only to give Sara closure, she can show up at the hospital right before Laurel dies to say goodbye. 

[yellowfred]

I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  On the one hand, she'll almost certainly be there in service of Sara's storyline, which means there'll be a lot of focus on Sara's storyline, which I'm pretty much always in favor of.  On the other hand, I feel like it's kind of beating a dead horse at this point.  Like, Sara's accepted her sister's death, she's gotten closure.  She's already chosen to walk away from a). a chance to pre-emptively kill Damian Dhark so that he can't kill Laurel, b). an alien-induced hallucination of Laurel, and c). an offer to have a normal life where Laurel is still alive.  I get that, of all the things in her reality, Laurel being dead is still the one that Sara would most want to change, but I'm not sure how many different variations they can have on that same theme before it just gets tired.

Then again, I think it'll kind of depend on how they do it.  Like, I could see it working as flashbacks or something to help flesh out Sara's storyline in the present day (Arrow used to be really good at that, so I feel like Legends could pull it off at least one more time).  Black Siren could also be fun (look, I just really want to know what Earth-2 Sara is like).  Other than that, though, I worry that it'll just feel repetitive.  

[Starfish35]

But what if Sara was given the chance to change things without consequences, by using the Spear?  I just remember there was some speculation earlier in this thread that each one of the Legends might be faced with their own temptation moment, and what would each of them do with that?  For Sara, it would be bringing back Laurel.

I mean, I'm not saying that IS what they're going to do.  I'm just speculating here.  It could be flashbacks, or some sort of visions, like Mick is having of Snart.  It could be Sara going back to see Laurel before she dies (thus explaining Laurel's mystifying prescience of her death - lol).  It could be a lot of things.  *shrug*

Actually....I like that idea.  I'm no Laurel fan, but Laurel as a snarky ghost in Sara's head might be entertaining.  Lol.  Which means that's probably exactly what they won't do.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[kismet]

LL is back for like one episode? 

I'm not worried. It might be interesting to see what they do with her. I think contractually she needed to appear on another Flarrowverse show, LoT makes the most sense.

I'm thinking it will be a spear thing. Flashback might be cool, but they don't really do that on LoT. Perhaps they venture back in time to SC 2008 or so, whenever SL was in LoA. I could see that as a time LoD might want to go back to, just before everything went wrong for them. And perhaps SL tries to get LL out of SC.

I really hope she doesn't come back as Black Siren. That just seems like a waste. I don't have many fond memories of LL, but I do like the sisterly relationship - even if the writers tilt it a little too toxic or melodramatic at times for plot.

[Starfish35]

I don't think she'll be Black Siren. I think she'll be Laurel.   The season started with Sara trying to undo Laurel's death.  Although she has to some extent come to terms with not being able to undo it, I still think they'll bring it full circle somehow in the finale and wrap it up.  Black Siren wouldn't fit into that.  

[darkestboy]

I like that we're seeing Laurel and Snart in the finale.

Less interested in Tolkien to be honest.

[Proteus]

http://ew.com/tv/2017/02/22/legends-tomorrow-jrr-tolkien-finale/

The Legends of Tomorrow are heading to Middle Earth — sort of.

EW can confirm that J.R.R. Tolkien — yes, that Tolkien, as in the author of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings — will appear in the season finale of DC’s Legends of Tomorrow.

On Tuesday, executive producer Marc Guggenheim tweeted a photo of the cast list for the season finale, which will include the return of Katie Cassidy as Laurel Lance as well as J.R.R. Tolkien. Of course, Tolkien, who died in 1973, will not actually appear, but a younger version of him will be portrayed by Jack Turner (Stitchers).

“The Tolkien idea actually was an idea we’ve had for the entire season,” executive producer Marc Guggenheim recently told EW while on set for the penultimate episode. “Very early on, when we were planning out season 2, we made a list of fun time periods that we want to visit, and the writing staff had this idea that we could do a Lord of the Rings homage in the trenches of World War I.”

Further details on why Tolkien will appear are being kept under wraps, but we can tease that it has to do with the Spear of Destiny.

Tolkien’s inclusion comes in the wake of the show also introducing a younger version of director George Lucas. After a run-in with the Legends and the Legion of Doom, Lucas decided to quit film school, leading to Ray (Brandon Routh) and Nate (Nick Zano) losing their respective inspirations — Star Wars and Indiana Jones — before the team encouraged the prolific director to get back in the game.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Proteus

[Proteus]

“Moonshot” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM  — When the Legends track Commander Steel (guest star Matthew MacCaull) to NASA Headquarters in 1970, they learn where Nate’s (Nick Zano) grandfather hid the last fragment of the Spear of Destiny.  The team notices a time aberration during the Apollo 13 mission and believes that the Legion of Doom might be involved.  As the Legends journey into space to intercept Apollo 13, the Waverider suffers massive internal damage and Ray’s (Brandon Routh) life is left in jeopardy when he is stranded on the moon.  Meanwhile, tension grows between Rip (Arthur Darvill) and Sara (Caity Lotz) as to who is the leader of the team.  Victor Garber, Franz Drameh, Maisie Richarson-Sellers and Dominic Purcell also star. Kevin Mock directed the episode written by Grainne Godfree (#214).  Original airdate 3/14/2017.

SOURCE:

The CW

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Ray’s (Brandon Routh) life is left in jeopardy when he is stranded on the moon. 

They do like to put Ray in jeopardy quite a bit, don't they?

7 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Meanwhile, tension grows between Rip (Arthur Darvill) and Sara (Caity Lotz) as to who is the leader of the team.

Well that should be interesting.  It's not unexpected.  I'm just wondering how they will end up resolving it.

[Sakura12]

Well that was expected, disappointing but expected. It'll probably go to Rip, because he's a man and these writers love their male heroes. That's why Supergirl suddenly got overloaded with them. 

[squidprincess]

Well, it IS his ship.  And he's the only one who really knows anything about the Spear, what it can do, and why the villains want it.

But I still bet they go with a co-captaincy.   They have built up Sara's role nicely,  and both characters have very compatible talents.

(I would laugh if the tension ended up being because neither of them wanted to keep the role.)

Edited February 24, 2017 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

Didn't he steal his ship? So it's not really his.

Having knowledge about history doesn't mean he can plan missions and lead a team. Otherwise Nate can be the Captain. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Sakura12

[kismet]

44 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

They do like to put Ray in jeopardy quite a bit, don't they?

I feel like they actual have a rotating wheel of jeopardy with Ray, Mick & Martin. Those are the 3 that seem to always be in jeopardy. Which kinda makes sense because they are inquisitive and beloved. Plus they often volunteer for missions.

If they abandoned Sara too much, the rescue missions would be hard to get off the ground.

Nate & Amaya are too new, and I'm not sure people would care about Nate.

Rip has been in jeopardy a lot too.

The only one who almost never seems in jeopardy is Jax.

[squidprincess]

50 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Didn't he steal his ship? So it's not really his.

Having knowledge about history doesn't mean he can plan missions and lead a team. Otherwise Nate can be the Captain. 

It was his ship for thirteen years, even before he "stole" it.  This isn't exactly a Doctor and TARDIS thing.  And well, barring a twist, Gideon seems to have made her allegiance pretty clear.

And he actually managed to plan missions and lead a team for the entire first season.  It's hard to compare success rates for the two seasons, since the missions are so different.  But except for Savage's escapes, I think season one actually had a fairly decent success rate.  They always managed to dismantle his schemes in the end.  And generally did well in the other stand alone adventures, except the Per Degaton mess and the Time Master betrayal in River of Time.

The catch with Sara remaining (sole) Captain is that she really doesn't have a huge amount of investment in the overall quest.  She was leading the "preserve the timeline" quest because Rip entrusted it to the team.  She wants to kill Darhk, but that's not really any different than Amaya wanting to arrest Eobard.  Rip's the one who asked everyone to come along.  He's the ex-Time Master who actually cares about the timeline for the timeline's sake.  And he's the one who apparently was involved in breaking the spear to begin with.

But really, "tension" is hardly the same as an actual power struggle.  They're probably just going to have to find their balance.  Rip's leadership style in season one always relied heavily on input from Sara, Martin, and the others.  I doubt he'd be expecting her to just step back and say nothing.  And Sara is used to commanding the team now, but she's never really seen it as a permanent permission, nor I think would she expect him to stay quiet when he's the one who knows what's going on and knows the principle parties.

Both characters are competent, decisive and work together well.  They've just both been used to being the voice in charge.  They just have to figure out the right rhythm.

Edited February 24, 2017 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

Gideon's a computer that was programmed to follow Rip. And apparently he didn't trust anyone enough to give the command codes for her. 

[squidprincess]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Gideon's a computer that was programmed to follow Rip. And apparently he didn't trust anyone enough to give the command codes for her. 

Yes.  I think that's my point.  She's his AI, and it's his ship.  He's under no obligation to give command codes to anyone else.

[Sakura12]

I'm just going by the track record for these writers, male heroes outnumber the females across all 4 shows. Supergirl who actually has all the powers in the world needed not one but two males to come help her out this season and now she's dating a guy that said he liked it better when he could just objectify women. Nate seems to be the male fantasy character, while Amaya gets to do things sometimes even though her power is a lot more interesting then his. Iris's entire purpose is to give pep talks to all the men on the Flash and Caitlin is the guest stars love interest. So it really has nothing to do with whose ship it is, to the writers it's, Rip's a male therefore he's the leader. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Sakura12

[squidprincess]

I understand your frustration.  This is not a comparable situation, though.  There are plausible reasons for Sara OR Rip to stay in command of the Waverider crew, which have nothing to do with general gender dynamics.

Honestly, given their respective temperaments and mutual respect, I think this "tension" will be either be Sara wanting Rip to take back over and him refusing, or both of them instinctively giving conflicting orders because they're so used to commanding, and then realizing they have to find a rhythm.  

Really, I'm just glad they aren't trying to ignore that Sara has been the leader for so long, OR that Rip is the original Captain.  It wouldn't feel right to me if they named either one as Captain, without some sort of acknowledgment and respect for the other.

Edited February 24, 2017 by squidprincess

[Sakura12]

On these shows gender is a bid deal. Logically Supegirl doesn't need Mon-El or Guardian to help her and she gets depowered so they can help her.  Logical thinking is not really these writers strong suit. 

[Lokiberry]

 Sara was treated horrifically on Arrow, but since she came to LoT, she's received the best treatment of any female character in the flarrowverse. She's been given plenty of screen time. She hasn't been relegated to the role of love interest, or been defined by her relationship with a man. She's never been stuck in a love triangle. Her stories are about her; she's the hero of her own stories.

It makes sense storywise that there will be "tension" over command between Sara and Rip once he's back in his right mind. That's got to be hashed out, but there's no precedence on this show for Sara being diminished. Personally, I think it's unlikely that Rip will resume sole command of the Waverider. I just don't think we can go back to that. It'll either be a co-captaincy or Rip will decide to move to an advisory position.
"

[kathyk24]

I actually think Sara has the advantage here. Nick and Amaya have no loyalty to Rip Jax hates Rip for trying to kill Sara. Stein is fond of her as well Ray and Mick might be the only ones who Rip can convince to be on his side. Ray thinks the best of everyone and Mick remembers being Chronus.

[squidprincess]

I'd imagine the Jax thing will get cleared up when he goes into Rip's head, per next week's synopsis.  

But I think it'd be kind of awful if the crew actually voted to take the Waverider away from Rip, even if they do think Sara's the better leader.  That's not just his ship, it's his home, and it's all he has.  Everyone else has their homes and families to return to, he really doesn't.  And it's kind of a horrifying thought that the crew would decide to take it from him because he happened to be first lost and then violated by their enemies.

If Sara does stay in command, I hope it's because Rip chooses to abdicate or share it with her.  Otherwise that would be a very dark, depressing message.

Edited February 24, 2017 by squidprincess

[Lokiberry]

If it's not a co-captaincy, I do think it'll be Rip's choice to step down. To do it any other way, would leave the character in an untenable position on the ship, and there would be unnecessary ongoing conflict between Rip and Sara.  I don't see how that benefits the story.

[kathyk24]

It's not a matter of voting for Captain it's a question of who does the crew trust. Right now the crew believes in Sara. Rip is going to earn his place on the team just as Mick did last year.

[squidprincess]

There are some differences between Rip and Mick's situations, though.  Mick had betrayed the team before becoming Chronos.  Rip was so loyal to the team, that he even put himself in danger when he was completely amnesiac to try to save them.

And honestly, there was no "earning his place" back.  As soon as Mick showed that he was in control of himself, he was immediately part of the team again.  Once he was in control of himself (after the fight with Snart in Progeny), he was immediately taking part in a discussion with Rip about null zones, and going out with the team at Salvation.  And we know how soon that was, because Snart was still bruised up from the fight  There was no indication of any distrust after that point.

It seems weird that the team would treat Rip differently.  Especially since at least some of them will actually be inside of his mind, and thus, more likely to understand exactly what was done to him.

Edited February 24, 2017 by squidprincess

[yellowfred]

6 hours ago, squidprincess said:

(I would laugh if the tension ended up being because neither of them wanted to keep the role.)

Honestly, I feel like this might be the more likely option.  Just because you have an affinity for herding cats doesn't mean it's a fun job to have.

[Lokiberry]

That's a good point. Mick chose to throw in with the Space Pirates, then the Time Masters got hold of him and brainwashed him. Rip chose to save his crew and then take a risky and potentially fatal chance at saving himself. After that, he was captured and brainwashed. It makes no sense that he'd be held to a different standard than Mick.

[Sakura12]

I think the difference is Mick didn't kill anyone on the team. Rip killed Sara and Dr. Midnite.That's a hard thing to unsee even if you know he was brainwashed. I think Rip would need to earn back the trust of the team. Mick never had their trust in the first place.

They are not kicking Rip out of his "home" if he's not the Captain, he would still be living on the ship and be part of the missions. 

[Starfish35]

I think, if Rip is not going to be Captain, that it would need to be a voluntary decision on his part, perhaps (just speculating here) as a realization that for the moment, due to what happened to him, he's not the best person to be in charge.  Like it or not (and I'm a big fan of Sara as captain), the Waverider is always going to be Rip's ship.  So I think surrendering control, IF that's what happens, needs to be voluntary on his part and not forced.

[Lokiberry]

I love Mick, he's a great character, but he tried to kill Sara and steal the time drive which would have stranded the team in whatever time period they were in. He did this because he was unhappy on the Waverider and Rip said something mean to him. Rip risked his life to save the crew, and then, when he was the most vulnerable was captured, tortured and violated to compel him to do the bidding of the LoD. Who's going to have trouble understanding that?  Douchebro Nate and Amaya, who were willing to risk a team mate and a founding father's life because they just had to get it on during a mission?

Let's be clear:  Mick was a career criminal and a murderer, who only signed on in the first place because Cold convinced him that they could use the opportunity to steal priceless objects throughout history. Rip recruited the team to save his family and stop Savage from taking over the world. Why does he deserve to be treated differently? Why does he deserve to be involuntarily  stripped of his ship, and it is his ship, because of something he had no control over?

The issue of who's in command needs to be resolved in a way that doesn't diminish either Rip or Sara. Both characters deserve to be treated with respect.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Lokiberry

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, Lokiberry said:

The issue of who's in command need to be resolved in a way that doesn't diminish either Rip or Sara. Both characters deserve to be treated with respect.

Agreed.

[rtalive]

8 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

 Sara was treated horrifically on Arrow, but since she came to LoT, she's received the best treatment of any female character in the flarrowverse. She's been given plenty of screen time. She hasn't been relegated to the role of love interest, or been defined by her relationship with a man. She's never been stuck in a love triangle. Her stories are about her; she's the hero of her own stories.

It makes sense storywise that there will be "tension" over command between Sara and Rip once he's back in his right mind. That's got to be hashed out, but there's no precedence on this show for Sara being diminished. Personally, I think it's unlikely that Rip will resume sole command of the Waverider. I just don't think we can go back to that. It'll either be a co-captaincy or Rip will decide to move to an advisory position.
"

I also think that it will be a step back, if they revert to Rip being the captain. First: it will be repetition and second: him being captain was not really exciting story, he was quite boring one. I guess they have to give him more emotional brake down after he is saved, because of the things he has done. Like Sara felt she was a monster after her resurrection, he probably will be very drained emotionally and psychologically after what he did and also feel like a monster. Sara left Star city when she realized her sister took her place and Rip probably has to leave and try to recover.

I also love how you described Sara as her own character, I also love that about her, she was written like that from day one, when she appeared as Canary on Arrow. She had her own story and characters to support her, even Oliver was there to support her fights. She had this amazing interesting, intense story with the league and Nyssa. That is why she became my favorite female character, because she can be in relationship, but that does not define her, she had her own dark back story and own little universe of supporting characters and her own fights.

I still wish though she is more main now on Legends and we can see more exploration of her past. On Legends everyone is their own character, no one is there to support someone, so they are all equally main, so there is not much screen time to develop one character more than the others. That's why most of them are undeveloped and flat. Sara has her background from Arrow and has a lot of potential for interesting new stories and also exploration of her past, but they just don't do it, because she is not the main character, like Barry and Oliver are.

[squidprincess]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

They are not kicking Rip out of his "home" if he's not the Captain, he would still be living on the ship and be part of the missions. 

The thing is: every other character, if they are unhappy with the team, leadership or mission, can quit.  They have somewhere, some when to go.  None of them are all that invested in the save the timeline quest to begin with, or have any real personal stake in its success. 

What does Rip have?  You put quotation marks around home, but the Waverider is literally all he has.  He's been a Time Master since he was ten years old.  Vanishing Point is destroyed, and Whitechapel is literal rubble.  Where exactly does he go, if HE is unhappy?

He has lived on that ship for 13 years.  Everything he owns is on that ship.  And it's worth noting that he owns basically everything that they make free use of for their missions.  

But of course, if the team forces him out as leader, then he gets to stay on board his own ship and take part in missions.  How generous.

Edited February 24, 2017 by squidprincess
removed a tangent, sorry

[Sakura12]

Rip can also go anywhere else and start a new life. They all have that option if they so choose. 

Not being a Captain doesn't take away him being the ships owner. If he wants to kick everyone off of it he can. Not being the Captain means just that, he's not the Captain. I really don't think Rip's the mine, mine, mine type of person.

The best option for me would be Sara remains the Captain. If not I just hope it will be Rip's the Captain and Sara's the mission Commander. Rip decides where they go and Sara plans the mission and leads any battles they are in. 

[Miss Dee]

The discussion makes it really clear that co-captaincy is the best route to go here. Rip and Sara have different strengths - he's more of a strategist, she's more of a tactician - and if they agreed on the division of command and how they would make it work, I think together they'd be a far more superior leader than either of them has proven to be on their own. That's not to say they aren't good captains separately - they are - but by leaning on each others strengths I think they'd perform even better together.

[Featherhat]

The fact that the Flarrowverse is even touting a competition over Neithreally!Comic Leadership is a good thing. Felicity says more than 2 words disagreeing with Oliver and "oh hell it's Fn'F/how dare you" (CL has also said that she was glad to be WC rather than deal with "ok so you're *Sara* Lance Not *Dinah*  go away") but they but this out in the press release as a plotline, which hopefully means two actors who have been giving it all this season will get some storyline, especially as they both have experience of being brainwashed and Sarah can now say that she's been killed (supposedly) 3 times on the orders of MM.

They worked well in S1 and Sarah has worked as a captain. Given CL popularity and the fact that they did come up with a fantastic plotline for AD without letting him go I would definitely hope they both stay on. No she didn't have powers or Ted Grant but she did have credibility.

I hope LL and SL have a good scene or two, I didn't really buy their scenes in either S2 or LL's desperation to revive her after more than a year, though I suppose many might. I hope they have closure and that KC isn't a regular or much of a guest going on forward.

I know the 'Verse is already messed up but "We fired Caity Lotz as Canary so Katie Cassidy could take the mantle she'd been promised. A few months later we realised Routh couldn't anchor a show and we resurrected Caity as White Canary, later on that season they killed off Katie Cassidy as Black Canary (as we might have been asking for for years) and were immediately told to find another Black Canary "Dinah Drake" (apparently no relation) who is expected to take on the mantle of BC instead of a new name because DCE is anxious?

[squidprincess]

I've been thinking: the "tension" could be an even simpler idea.  I think every character (old guard at least) basically assumed Rip would take the chair back when they found him, Sara included.  

So what if that happens, but due to everything that's just happened (because between the time drive, Phil, and this mess, he hasn't had time to so much as break down), he can't keep it together.  Makes a few bad calls. The tension could be Sara noticing that and then Rip deciding/realizing that he needs time to recover before he can even think about reclaiming his seat.  

It would be a way to keep the idea of tension without an uncharacteristic power struggle.

[yellowfred]

Yeah, I could see a lot of ways the "tension" could work with those two, but an overt power struggle isn't one of them.  The two of them respect each other too much for that.

[Proteus]

EW SpoilerRoom:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/02/24/spoiler-room-arrow-shield-blacklist/

With Rip presumably part of the team again after the next episode of Legends of Tomorrow, when can we expect the issue of who’s going to be captain going forward to be addressed? — BearSpeak
Even though Rip is back on the Waverider, that doesn’t mean they can truly bring back the old Rip — and even if they could, the team may never be able to fully trust him again. “In my head, Rip’s done a lot of things to Sara that she didn’t like and didn’t appreciate,” Caity Lotz says. “She has a love-hate with him relationship already. She loves him, but she hates him and that’s kind of a hard thing to forgive. Sara’s not a saint.”

Edited February 24, 2017 by Proteus

[Sakura12]

I'm guessing that's for the next episode where Sara, Jax and Rip are going to work out thier issues by fighting and yelling at each other.

[squidprincess]

Yeah, I can't see Sara holding a grudge once she knows what really happened.  She has been there after all.  And Sara isn't one for victim-blaming.  Nor is she a hypocrite.

Edited February 24, 2017 by squidprincess

[yellowfred]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

“In my head, Rip’s done a lot of things to Sara that she didn’t like and didn’t appreciate,” Caity Lotz says.

I wonder if this is referring to some of the decisions that original!Rip made that Sara disagreed with.  Like, I guess she could be talking about the stuff he's done as evil!Rip, but saying "she didn't like and didn't appreciate" being shot, point-blank, and then having her neck broken seems like it would be something of an understatement.

[feverfew]

10 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

The issue of who's in command needs to be resolved in a way that doesn't diminish either Rip or Sara. Both characters deserve to be treated with respect.
 

I've just been liking away here; all of you guys bring up some good points. As someone who started to watch Legends for Sara, but surprisingly stayed not just for her, but for Mick, Ray and especially Rip, I don't want either characters to be dimished. A co-captaincy is the only way forward, for me.

9 hours ago, rtalive said:

I still wish though she is more main now on Legends and we can see more exploration of her past. On Legends everyone is their own character, no one is there to support someone, so they are all equally main, so there is not much screen time to develop one character more than the others. That's why most of them are undeveloped and flat. Sara has her background from Arrow and has a lot of potential for interesting new stories and also exploration of her past, but they just don't do it, because she is not the main character, like Barry and Oliver are.

Uh, I don't know. I'm actually really, really happy Legends don't have any lead character. What they've done to Barry and Oliver made me give up those shows (Arrow more than Flash; I still check in with Flash because I love Iris so much. Arrow ruined all of its characters for me) - also; I've always been a fan of ensamble shows when done well. In my head I compare Legends to Firefly a bit: yeah, some characters are more plot-bringers, but they're all* important and as such, can't/shouldn't be shuffled aside.

*Okay. I lied. Nate's not important.

[Proteus]

Sara has been the most gung ho about finding Rip. So I hope these next few episodes do justice to their friendship.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Proteus

[lurker22]

We know that in the next episode, both Sara and Jax enter Rip's mind. I'd like to think that Sara wanted to go alone, but Jax insisted on going with her to have her back and protect her against evil Rip. Not that Sara needs protection, but she might have a blindspot when it comes to Rip because she's so determined to bring him back.

As for the "tension" mentioned in the 214 press release, maybe Rip isn't fully restored to the old Rip when he returns? As in, there's still some fragments of the evil Rip in him. And given that he's killed Sara and Dr MidNite, it would be hard for the team, especially Jax and Amaya, to fully trust him, at least for now.

While Rip was brainwashed by the Legion to be evil, I feel like what he did while evil was still, on some levels, his own decisions. It wasn't a clear-cut mind control like what Malcolm did to Thea, or Rip to the Camelot knights. While it came from an evil place that Thawne created, taking out the strongest member of the Legends team was a strategic move he made to achieve his goal. No one told him to kill Sara or Dr MidNite, he did it because he wanted to. And all the things he told Jax in 211 made sense, even if they were extreme. I could see a non-brainwashed person who was consumed by grief and despair make the same decisions.

I don't see (or more accurately put, want to see) Rip or Sara fighting over the Captain role. Evil Rip doesn't see himself as a Captain anymore, and he called Sara "Captain" last episode. So if his memories or some of his evil personality remain intact, I think he would respect what Sara has done thus far. And Sara, I feel, thinks that she's only temporarily holding down the fort until Rip returns. I can see Sara wanting to give Rip back the Captain's chair. So maybe the "tension" comes in when Rip issues some command, and the team hesitating and looking to Sara to see if she agrees with it. After all, the team is used to following Sara's commands by now.

Eventually, I think (and hope that) Rip and Sara are going to be co-captains.

[squidprincess]

1 hour ago, lurker22 said:

.While Rip was brainwashed by the Legion to be evil, I feel like what he did while evil was still, on some levels, his own decisions. It wasn't a clear-cut mind control like what Malcolm did to Thea, or Rip to the Camelot knights. While it came from an evil place that Thawne created, taking out the strongest member of the Legends team was a strategic move he made to achieve his goal. No one told him to kill Sara or Dr MidNite, he did it because he wanted to. And all the things he told Jax in 211 made sense, even if they were extreme. I could see a non-brainwashed person who was consumed by grief and despair make the same decisions.

They literally rewrote his brain.  We watched them do it.  I don't think you can get more "clear-cut mind control" than that.

Obviously, it's not direct domination.  Rip seems to have some wiggle room in how he interprets orders (he was actually ordered to kill the entire team.  Instead, he tries to win Jax to his side.  And while he did kill Mid-Nite, it looked like he was trying to deceive him first) but we also know that Rip basically electrocuted his own brain to hide the spear from them, and we saw him tortured, and then we saw Eobard literally change who Rip was.

Yes, it's very likely that a non-brainwashed person could make the same decisions.  But Rip would not.  He couldn't even kill Vandal Savage in Egypt after the man killed his family.  He couldn't kill Per Degaton either, even if it meant that his family would be saved.  He is absolutely not the man we see in Turncoat and Camelot.  There isn't even a question here.

-

I was thinking though that Caity Lotz doesn't say anything about brainwashing in that quote.  And she doesn't mention Rip killing her or Mid-Nite.  She says that Rip has done "a lot of things" to Sara that she didn't like.  That sounds, to me, like a much older issue at work.

And it makes sense.  Rip has a very nasty habit of keeping secrets from the team.  And this Spear of Destiny stuff is more of that.   I think that if there is lasting tension, and any residual feelings of distrust, it's going to be about this.  It would be unfair and hypocritical for the team to blame Rip for the brainwashing, but this is something that Rip has actually done and is doing.  And it is completely fair and understandable for the crew to not be okay with it.

[Lokiberry]

2 hours ago, lurker22 said:

 

While Rip was brainwashed by the Legion to be evil, I feel like what he did while evil was still, on some levels, his own decisions. It wasn't a clear-cut mind control like what Malcolm did to Thea, or Rip to the Camelot knights. While it came from an evil place that Thawne created, taking out the strongest member of the Legends team was a strategic move he made to achieve his goal. No one told him to kill Sara or Dr MidNite, he did it because he wanted to. And all the things he told Jax in 211 made sense, even if they were extreme. I could see a non-brainwashed person who was consumed by grief and despair make the same decisions.

We saw Thawne examining his brain scan, and gleefully plotting the changes he would make. He wasn't looking to turn Rip into  a mindless robot like Arthur. He wanted all of Rip's knowledge and expertise intact so he could use it for his own purposes. Thawne took Rip's mind apart, rewrote it, changed things around until he got the tool he wanted. How then is Rip responsible? Because he had the knowledge in his head of what to say to Jax, and that Sara was the most dangerous person in the crew and needed to be taken out? Rip didn't make the decision to do these things of his own volition; Thawne assaulted him, violated him, and took his mind and made him do it.

To suggest that Rip is responsible for any of this is victim blaming.

ETA: Squidprincess, I've been hearing that CL didn't make the spoiler room comments. If that's true, then we're just left with the tension over command, and that could mean anything.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Lokiberry