S30: Will Sims II

[BigRedCheese]

"I wish Jeff would have shown the raw footage from that over trying to nail Dan over the whole 'yo mama' joke-gate."

 

Dan committed the unpardonable sin of bad mouthing the show and CBS, and made the mistake to lie about something that was easily verifiable, he was made an example of. In Will's case, I think it was something similar to Brandon, they wanted to get it out of the way as quickly as possible, with Brandon, they didn't even have him at he reunion. Jeff had already promised to discuss it at the reunion on twitter, so that wasn't an option, it seems someone must have insisted to Will that he make an apology rather than try to explain why he was in the right, and Shirin really doesn't have a soul. He made a passive aggressive, and insulting non-apology, and they quickly moved on to Second Chances. Brandon was ultra creepy in his first season, with his weirdness about Mikayla, it just went downhill from there. I think there's a lot of things we weren't shown with Will, probably why he was in the background and not focused on much.

[phlebas]

I don't think Will should have been pulled. I don't think he should have been forced to apologize. What happened was something that should have been handled in game. I do think that there is a line that will need to be drawn but I don't know where that line is or how they draw it. I suspect it is when someone is following another person around, essentially stalking them, and harassing them. I don't think we have come close to that line and I doubt that they will ever get close to that line but who knows.

 

I'm fine with Will getting what he got.  I don't care about Survivor forcing him to apologize any more than Shirin apparently does. But since Will claims to be a Christian, he should be familiar with this passage from the Bible:

 

"If you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind." -- Hosea 8:7

 

Will is now dealing with the blowback from his behavior and is in the odd position of hoping he can become anonymous.  Seems like a fair enough return on showing your ass in public.

[kikaha]

 

 I think there's a lot of things we weren't shown with Will, probably why he was in the background and not focused on much.

 

I think Will was in the background because:

 

*  He didn't know much about Survivor.  Where people like Max and Shirin were walking Survivor encyclopedias, Will was going through on-the-job training out there;

 

*  He was surrounded by some 'big' personalities, who got a whole lot of screen time;

 

*  He didn't dominate any aspects of the game that are easily visible.  He was not a challenge beast.  Didn't run the game.  Didn't make any huge moves, that made the viewers go "Hmmm." 

 

Will operated in the shadows.  He was doing that real well -- quietly setting himself up in a rock-solid alliance, making few enemies -- right up till when he went ballistic on Shirin.  That blew  his whole game.  It also was the trigger that got her back (right away for s31)... and probably guarantees he never gets another invite. 

[BigRedCheese]

What I mean is that what we weren't shown was his constant bad mouthing of Sharin to the others, and insulting her on a daily basis. Did others find her annoying at times, sure, but there's a big difference in being annoyed by someone's personality, and passionately hating them. According to Sharin, and others, he was constantly saying degrading things about her. His hatred was on display at the reunion as well, the look of disdain when he finally looked in her direction was really unpleasant. He won't say why he despised her on such a deeply personal level, I'm not sure I want to know.

[ProfCrash]

Shirin is the only person I have seen say that Will was calling her soulless regularly. I have not read anything from the other Survivor's saying that. I am sure Will and Shirin were unplease t to each other before and after the blow up. That is not a reason to pull Will.

Will and Dan said that Shirin was saying bad stuff about them. Mike has said that was not the case so I am ready to say Mike and Dan are misremembering things, again.

[BigRedCheese]

Mike said that Will told him awful things about Shirin, and he was surprised at how nice she was based on what he had been told, and I'm willing to take Sharin's account that Will was doing that. That kind of viscous attack makes more sense knowing that it was part of a pattern, since we know he wasn't really that mad about the food thing. As far as being pulled from the game, I see his attack as pretty similar to the Brandon situation, although, I agree, it didn't go as far, I think mainly because Mike stepped in. But it's not as cut and dry as Brandon being pulled, I will agree with that.  

[pennben]

 

Mike said that Will told him awful things about Shirin

 

I thought Mike was saying that Joaquin and Tyler were saying awful things about Shirin at the tribal mixup (pre-merge) and then when he met her at the merge he found those things not to be true (at least in his opinion).  I don't think he would have met Will before he met Shirin.

 

Our telephone game is strong here!!!

 

ETA:  Because I'm on deadline at work, I had no choice but to more fully investigate:)

 

RHAP long conversation with Mike, post-win:

 

55:20:  brings up that Joaquin and Tyler have been trashing Shirin; he thought it was gameplay; was wrong, in that they were talking down Carolyn as well, who was their partner:

 

1:08:  talks about meeting Shirin at merge after her being talked down for six days (definitely pre-merge, swap time).

Edited June 3, 2015 by pennben

[ProfCrash]

Pennben, that is how I heard Mike's comments

[LadyChatts]

I thought Mike was saying that Joaquin and Tyler were saying awful things about Shirin at the tribal mixup (pre-merge) and then when he met her at the merge he found those things not to be true (at least in his opinion).  I don't think he would have met Will before he met Shirin.

 

Our telephone game is strong here!!!

 

Lol this is why I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle.  It's such a hotly contested issue with both sides saying the other was in the wrong, or that they weren't entirely wrong and apologized but the other person won't accept.  So I will just stick with Shirin was no doubt annoying and finally someone snapped, but Will was wrong for not even pretending to think his outburst went over the line.  And that there's a lot they chose not to show us, for whatever reason. 

[BigRedCheese]

 

I will just stick with Shirin was no doubt annoying and finally someone snapped

 

I'm just not buying it, was she annoying at times, no doubt, but that kind of vitriol doesn't come from that, there's something deeper with Will on this. Some have speculated that it might have been because she has middle eastern heritage, since he won't say, all we can do is guess at it. As for what Mike said, I stand corrected on that, I was thinking he had mentioned Will in that part, but he had talked quite a bit about Will in the foodgate thing, so I guess that's what I was thinking about.

[Jextella]

I agree there has to be more.  Could be as simple as harmless editing on CBS's part, or shit happened we didn't see.  To inspire the kind of vitriol by so many tells me there is *something* more than geeky fandom and incessant talking that rubbed people the wrong way.

[pennben]

 

So I will just stick with Shirin was no doubt annoying and finally someone snapped, but Will was wrong for not even pretending to think his outburst went over the line.

 

Yeah, I think that's where I land.  Why Will decided over days that he would not back down perplexes me to this day. I don't think he's an awful guy, but I think he made an awful stand.  At least a couple of folks on the island told him as much (Carolyn/Tyler).

 

And he hasn't recovered at all from that moment because...... stubborn.....pride? ......not saying anything that would make Shirin seem okay? 

 

I remain underimpressed by Will.

Edited June 3, 2015 by pennben

[BigRedCheese]

 

I agree there has to be more.  Could be as simple as harmless editing on CBS's part, or shit happened we didn't see.  To inspire the kind of vitriol by so many tells me there is *something* more than geeky fandom and incessant talking that rubbed people the wrong way.

 

I think there's more with Will, no one had that kind of animosity towards Sharin, only Will. All we can do is speculate, I guess I'll just go with he's mentally off, and the Survivor screenings didn't catch it.

[ProfCrash]

I think Dan is pretty close to Will's level of dislike but Dan does seem to understand that he should apologize when he sticks his foot in his mouth. His apology to Shirin at the finale felt real and Sierra said that Dan apologized to her a ton for his bone headed statements and behavior in the game. I think Dan sees his individual mistakes and will own up for those but he does not want to see the pattern of behavior and see where that is pointing.

 

I suspect that Will's comments are based in Shirin's families religion. I don't think Shirin is a practicing Muslim and I don't think she identifies herself as Muslim.

[BigRedCheese]

I dislike Dan, but he didn't actually come across as hate filled as Will did, he's just kind of a dufus that can't read a room. If anything, I think was probably annoyed with Shirin because he was afraid she was stealing the "superfan" edit he felt was rightfully his. Yeah, you're probably right about Will's irrational hatred of Shirin.

[ljenkins782]

I suspect that Will's comments are based in Shirin's families religion. I don't think Shirin is a practicing Muslim and I don't think she identifies herself as Muslim.

 

That's really where I feel the whole issue is. I definitely did not get the impression that Shirin is very religious, if at all, but if her family is Muslim, Will may be reacting to that.

 

I think his stubborn clinging to his position relates back to his "God don't like ugly and I'm exposing ugly" remark, he might feel like he's making a stand for Christianity or something. I totally disagree on all counts, but it's the only thing that would make sense of his "soulless" comments and extreme personal hatred of her. 

[Zuleikha]

That's why I wish an interviewer would point blank make him explain his no soul comments. I don't want to judge him as a religious bigot on relatively small evidence, but I don't know what else would make someone say something like "you have no soul." And he repeated it at the Tribal Council (or at least said something like "but it's true!"), so it wasn't just a heat-of-the-moment insult.

 

I definitely did not get the impression that Shirin is very religious, if at all, but if her family is Muslim, Will may be reacting to that.

Shirin's Ponderosa video strongly implied that she's not religious, but that her family was very strict when she was groiwng up. 

[Bryce Lynch]

I recommend you let this crusade go. Will needs us to forget him more than he needs a PR campaign.

It is not a "crusade", I am merely expressing my opinions. I don't really care how Will is remembered or if he is forgotten. I am really anti-Shirin, not pro-Will.

[phlebas]

An army of one.

 

Speaking of forgetting Will, has he shown up anywhere since the finale?  His twitter account is mostly inactive, and Monifa's FB page isn't giving us much.

[ProfCrash]

I can respect people who defend their position. No reason for Bryce to feel differently then others and say so. (shrugs)

 

Nope, Will has gone to ground. I don't know how active he was before the show started to air, I suspect that it was a great deal more then since the fight aired. He made comments that people on the street were saying they didn't like Shirin and that he was fine but I suspect that is not the case. We tend to hear similar comments from folks who did not do well and were seen as assholes on their season. I think Will gets how badly he came across and is trying to lay low and let the storm pass.

[phlebas]

Nope, Will has gone to ground. I don't know how active he was before the show started to air, I suspect that it was a great deal more then since the fight aired. He made comments that people on the street were saying they didn't like Shirin and that he was fine but I suspect that is not the case. We tend to hear similar comments from folks who did not do well and were seen as assholes on their season. I think Will gets how badly he came across and is trying to lay low and let the storm pass.

 

Given everything, this is probably his wisest move. Refreshing from a man not known for making wise moves.  I suspect this is an approach Dan wishes he'd adopted before his Survivor Done Me Wrong Tour 2015 began.

[choclatechip45]

Given everything, this is probably his wisest move. Refreshing from a man not known for making wise moves. I suspect this is an approach Dan wishes he'd adopted before his Survivor Done Me Wrong Tour 2015 began.

I saw on reddit that someone commented on Dans Facebook saying Jeff was so hard on Dan at the reunion because Julie Berry was from Maine and probst is bitter about his breakup with her. I think Dan might have liked the comment.

[ProfCrash]

Well, Dan did show everyone what would happen if you take the blame the show approach. He was getting hit hard by folks after his interviews. Dalton Ross and Rob C made it clear that they were not happy with how Dan handle their interviews and the overall reaction to what Dan said was pretty negative.

 

Honestly, I don't think Will was shown in as bad a light as Dan. Will had one really awful moment compounded by awful comments in the first tribal and a refusal to admit any wrong in the next tribal. Dan had a series of poor to awful to head shakingly confusing statements through out the season. If Will had been as bad as Dan, we would have seen it. There is no way that the Producers would only aired that one fight if they had similar behavior from Will across the season. Consistent comments are not going to air because they don't really affect the game but fights and confrontations do.

 

Will had to answer for one fight and he got lucky, he got to do his press as a part of the final five which meant he was teamed up with another person. The interviewers could not go into any depth with him because their 15 minutes became 7 minutes and there was someone else there to address as well. Will was effectively shielded from being asked what he meant by Shirin being Soulless because there was no real time to get into that. And it could be that all the interviewers saw how he handled the finale and realized that they were not going to get anything out of him so why bother?

 

I doubt we will hear from Will again. He doesn't want to discuss the topic and his comments. Dan will do a Rob Has a Podcast in a bit because Dan wants to clear the air and wants to be loved. He is desperate for it.

[BigRedCheese]

I just think there's a lot we didn't see with Will, I don't see any reason to not believe Shirin when she says he was making nasty comments to her all the time. It seems she mostly let it roll off her back until he used the food thing as an excuse to verbally assault her in such a viscous way. I don't think they showed it because it's just too unpleasant, and they had a target rich dufus like Dan that said stupid stuff all the time, but it mostly comes across as idiotic, not hate filled.

 

I think they just wanted to get past this Will situation as quickly and quietly as possible, I think this whole Second Chance thing was designed to do just that. They knew that everybody would be excited about the voting and the returning players, so they delayed a season they already had in the can so they could take attention away from Will's attack. Probst had to address it, he promised to on Twitter, if he hadn't done that, it probably would have been like with Brandon's situation, not even have him at the reunion, or Sue Hawk and Richard on All Stars, they never even mentioned the incident. They made a huge mistake casting Will, I think they realized that, and would rather just forget it, and make us forget it, they probably begged Will to just keep his mouth shut. It's pretty much worked, now we're all excited about Second Chances, and aside from the occasional message board posts like these, Will is forgotten.

[choclatechip45]

I just think there's a lot we didn't see with Will, I don't see any reason to not believe Shirin when she says he was making nasty comments to her all the time. It seems she mostly let it roll off her back until he used the food thing as an excuse to verbally assault her in such a viscous way. I don't think they showed it because it's just too unpleasant, and they had a target rich dufus like Dan that said stupid stuff all the time, but it mostly comes across as idiotic, not hate filled.

I think they just wanted to get past this Will situation as quickly and quietly as possible, I think this whole Second Chance thing was designed to do just that. They knew that everybody would be excited about the voting and the returning players, so they delayed a season they already had in the can so they could take attention away from Will's attack. Probst had to address it, he promised to on Twitter, if he hadn't done that, it probably would have been like with Brandon's situation, not even have him at the reunion, or Sue Hawk and Richard on All Stars, they never even mentioned the incident. They made a huge mistake casting Will, I think they realized that, and would rather just forget it, and make us forget it, they probably begged Will to just keep his mouth shut. It's pretty much worked, now we're all excited about Second Chances, and aside from the occasional message board posts like these, Will is forgotten.

I agree with that plus the fact Will wasn't a big fan before he went on the show helps too because he isn't as invested like Dan with the audience liking him. Which in all honesty is probably the healthier way of dealing with being on a reality show.

[fishcakes]

I saw on reddit that someone commented on Dans Facebook saying Jeff was so hard on Dan at the reunion because Julie Berry was from Maine and probst is bitter about his breakup with her. I think Dan might have liked the comment.

 

Ha. That's the definition of grasping at straws. "Well, Dan is a mailman and Jeff hates how many catalogs he gets in the mail, so he took it out on poor Dan at the reunion. If Pottery Barn would just take Jeff off his mailing list like he's asked them a million times, then everyone would see that Dan is really a hero."

[LadyChatts]

Now I've heard it all.  If Jeff still cares, he probably would get the biggest kick out of the fact that Dan still can't let it go.  That man really can't accept that maybe he was wrong and got what he deserved.  Hey, he's the one who wanted to be remembered.  While I agree that Jeff went softer on Will and Rodney, Dan should have known what attacking CBS and blaming the editing was going to do.  Jeff has never hesitated to call out anyone that blames a bad edit.  Dan just accomplished something that's never been done before, in getting raw footage shown to prove he's a liar.