All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[ch1]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

Romano was as un-PC as they come, but his concern for Lizzie when Mark was dying as well as his tenderness as he sutured Lucy's chest after she died belied that.  

I always liked the scene with Romano where Benton is leaving with Reese and Romano signs to him.  I read on the boards at the time that it was “take care of you father.”  Romano had his moments.  He definitely deserved a better ending.

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I like the fact that Mark is 2 faced to Doug and Kerry about supporting/not supporting the peds attending position. It was the wrong thing to do but great for the character--because there are real, nice people in the world that have trouble being direct with someone when they don't agree and then find themselves nodding along, agreeing to something, not having the guts to come out and say "but I also think this" and then find themselves in a spot where Doug and Kerry both feel lied to, understandably---but they didn't intend to do that. That's real life. I know how those things happen because I have trouble being blunt

Or the way he let Susan believe he was on her side during her clashes with Kayson and Kerry and not until things heated to the boiling point did he finally admit otherwise.

 

2 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

 

 

[RedbirdNelly]

25 minutes ago, Camille said:

Or the way he let Susan believe he was on her side during her clashes with Kayson and Kerry and not until things heated to the boiling point did he finally admit otherwise.

 

that's another good example. It was one of Mark's consistent weak spots--being blunt, saying what he means when it is awkward to someone's face is not a skill he had. I'm married to a person who is really good at giving direct, honest feedback and somehow not sounding like a jerk at the same time. I've yet to master that.

[Growsonwalls]

And although I hated Jen, Mark also wasn't very upfront about the fact that he was super-invested in his job at County General and wasn't willing to move to Milwaukee to be with her. It took a long time before he finally admitted he simply wanted to commute.

Doug also repeatedly has to tell Mark how exactly to break up with women he's not interested in. It was a comic subplot but as much as Doug needed Mark's support professionally, I think Mark also needed Doug's directness. 

One more annoying thing about Season 5 opener: Peter and Corday have a quickie in an ER room with Lucy studying. This is all so Lucy can have the awkward experience of witnessing two doctors having sex on the job. But Peter is the least likely person in the ER to have an on the job quickie. He's so sober and fixated on new surgical procedures. When Mark, Carter, Carol/Doug decided to get sexed up on the job I believed it because it wasn't totally out of character. But Peter? I dont think so.

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

And although I hated Jen, Mark also wasn't very upfront about the fact that he was super-invested in his job at County General and wasn't willing to move to Milwaukee to be with her. It took a long time before he finally admitted he simply wanted to commute.

Right to the very end, Mark couldn't flat-out tell Elizabeth that he wasn't going to kick Rachel out, nor could he finally take a hard line with Rachel over her behavior and drug use, as evidenced by the fact that she still sneaking drugs and alcohol during his death episode.

By that point, it was utterly infuriating. For crying out loud, man, your infant daughter almost died and your oldest daughter is heading the same way, and you're as spineless as ever.

[txhorns79]

Quote

By that point, it was utterly infuriating. For crying out loud, man, your infant daughter almost died and your oldest daughter is heading the same way, and you're as spineless as ever.

I'll defend Mark a little and say he was in an impossible position.  He didn't want to let Rachel feel like he was abandoning her when she clearly needed help, but his other daughter was put into serious danger by Rachel's irresponsibility and that could not be allowed to stand.  In a way, the show cheated by killing Mark rather than really resolving the issues between he and Elizabeth.

I am finishing up Season 15, and it sounds as though Carter has essentially bankrupted his family foundation for what seems to be a glorified vanity project.  From what I remember from earlier seasons, Carter makes a big show of rejecting corporate sponsors and having the foundation pay for everything.  Thanks to his poor planning, he says the Carter Center only has money to operate for a year and he'll have to do substantial fundraising for the rest of his life to keep it operating.  Great job Carter!       

[Growsonwalls]

Speaking of the "Mark is an ass" theme, in Season 5 when Doug becomes attending peds physician in the ER and invites Mark and Carol to celebrate Mark can't even act happy for his friend. Probably because he secretly assured Kerry Weaver it wasn't going to happen. Contrast that with Carol who was beaming with pride. Had the tables been turned (say, Mark applied for chief attending physician) Doug never would have talked behind Mark's back and not been happy for Mark. 

This is totally unfair. Doug for all his personal issues and occasional insubordination is an excellent doctor. As far as we know, he has great medical technique, puts in long hours, has amazing bedside manner, goes above and beyond for patients, and has a good relationship with the vast majority of the staff. He doesn't get along with Kerry Weaver but neither does the entire ER staff. In fact, overall Doug is probably a better doctor than Mark. But it seemed like Mark was only comfortable being Doug's friend as long as he was also Doug's boss.

Season 5 Episode 3 was great for the moment when Kerry realized that for all her ass-kissing to the higher ups, they neither liked her nor cared about her opinions.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll defend Mark a little and say he was in an impossible position.  He didn't want to let Rachel feel like he was abandoning her when she clearly needed help,

Wouldn't he have been sending her back to her mother, not tossing her out on the streets?

I don't remember the specifics, but I have a general sense that Rachel coming to live with Mark (and Corday) to begin with was not a simple matter of shifting from one parent to another, but her being rewarded for acting like a shithead (maybe a typical teen, maybe more; she did run away or something) in one primary home by getting to shift her primary residence to the other home, the one with the parent who is more lax on discipline.  Then her irresponsibility nearly kills her little sister, and going back to Jen's would mean just focusing on Rachel's issues, not also having to guard against her once again putting an infant at risk?  Yeah, buy that twit a train ticket.

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll defend Mark a little and say he was in an impossible position.  He didn't want to let Rachel feel like he was abandoning her when she clearly needed help,

But that's the point. He didn't get her help. If he was going to refuse to kick her out, he needed to buckle down and put her into rehab or counseling.

Someone on another board pointed that Elizabeth wanting to boot Rachel would have been unreasonable if Mark had given any indication that he was going to punish Rachel, but the fact that he was continuing with his spineless bullshit was the last straw for her.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Camille

[Growsonwalls]

And Lucy continues to ruin Season 5. "Vanishing Act" was an all around wonderful episode except for Lucy losing the dead guy with the Prince Albert ring AND the continuing dumb storyline of her not knowing how to do an IV. Idk whether the writers were thinking that Lucy would be the comic relief of the season, but Kellie Martin isn't a natural comedienne and so she just came across as shrill and annoying rather than funny. Also I know it was a tradition for ER to mix "light" storylines with heavier storylines in one episode, but the older "light" ER stories were usually character-driven. Classic example: "Whose Appy Now?" in which Mark's eagerness to overbook dates ended up with him having a romantic candlelit dinner ... with Doug and Benton ends up mumbling nonsense after getting an appendectomy and Carter exaggerates his mumblings. It wasn't something dumb and unbelievable like Lucy losing a dead guy.

Otherwise there were several great storylines, starting with the really chilling way Corday was all of a sudden "Lizzie" and treated like garbage in the O.R., Peter being in denial about his son's hearing impairment, Carol's pregnancy scare, Doug unexpectedly being a stern taskmaster manager (him demanding color-coded charts was precious), Mark and Kerry's continuous silent unspoken sabotaging of each others' professional goals, and Jeanie dealing with the alcoholic who wants another liver transplant. 

[Dr.OO7]

7 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Carol's pregnancy scare

That would have been nice but for the tired, clichéd "Woman thinks she's pregnant, finds out that she isn't and is surprised to be disappointed instead of relieved" trope.

I love Doug's delayed reaction, though.

Carol: "I'm three days late"

Doug: "Uh huh. (does a double take) What? WHAT?!"

Why is every TV woman either so irregular that that the possibility of pregnancy never occurs to her unless she outright misses a cycle or as regular as clockwork and therefore suspects/fears pregnancy the second she's late? I personally wouldn't be worried until I was at least a week overdue.

[Growsonwalls]

2 minutes ago, Camille said:

That would have been nice but for the tired, clichéd "Woman thinks she's pregnant, finds out that she isn't and is surprised to be disappointed instead of relieved" trope.

I love Doug's delayed reaction, though.

Carol: "I'm three days late"

Doug: "Uh huh. (does a double take) What? WHAT?!"

Why is every TV woman either so irregular that that the possibility of pregnancy never occurs to her unless she outright misses a cycle or as regular as clockwork and therefore suspects/fears pregnancy the second she's late? I personally wouldn't be worried until I was at least a week overdue.

Personally as someone who is really regular I took several pregnancy tests because I was a few days late. But I also took one because I wasn't 100% careful which is another story ...

I thought Carol/Doug were freaking out because they were probably like a lot of couples who are having sex at every opportunity, whether it's at home, work, the car, anywhere ... not 100% careful. I mean we found out in "The Exodus" (and this was right after Carol kissed the paramedic and weren't on great terms) that both of them were incredibly bummed to spend even one night apart. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Wouldn't he have been sending her back to her mother, not tossing her out on the streets?

Rachel was staying with Mark because of problems she was having with her mother.  Sending her back to Jen would probably not be the best solution to the issue.  I think Mark also had guilt over not being a regular presence in Rachel's life, and blamed himself for her problems.  I do agree Mark could have done more for Rachel, and he appeared way too trusting of her, even after she had proven herself to not be worthy of that trust.  That was why I was saying I thought the writers cheated in how they resolved the situation by having Mark die.    

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Rachel was staying with Mark because of problems she was having with her mother.  Sending her back to Jen would probably not be the best solution to the issue.  I think Mark also had guilt over not being a regular presence in Rachel's life, and blamed himself for her problems.  I do agree Mark could have done more for Rachel, and he appeared way too trusting of her, even after she had proven herself to not be worthy of that trust.  That was why I was saying I thought the writers cheated in how they resolved the situation by having Mark die.    

Yes, and Mark's death seems to have straightened her out, by the finale, she's got a warm and loving relationship with Elizabeth and is going to medical school.  Very realistic.

The main problem with Mark was his desire to avoid conflict and take the path of least resistance in all cases.  When Rachel showed up on his doorstep and wanted to move in, he called Jen, found out she was fed up with her and immediately agreed she could live with him without consulting Elizabeth or delving further into Rachel's problems and figuring out what was best for all of them.  Then, every time Rachel stepped out of line, he gave her a wimpy talking-to and pretended everything was all better. I will say he was written consistently throughout the show, both at home and at work, he was passive and disengaged rather than invite conflict.

[Growsonwalls]

Mark's way of "managing" Kerry infuriated me the most. Mark was Kerry's direct supervisor. When EVERYONE in the ER has an issue with Kerry's style, Mark needed to take a firmer hand with Kerry. These conflicts went on for seasons and it happened with everyone. Also I would have been disturbed by Kerry's mood swings when dealing with patients. 

In fact the only time Mark actually took a firm hand with Kerry was exactly the moment he shouldn't have -- he reamed her for keeping Jeanie's HIV status secret, which is the one time Kerry was doing the right thing. 

[RedbirdNelly]

7 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Yes, and Mark's death seems to have straightened her out, by the finale, she's got a warm and loving relationship with Elizabeth and is going to medical school.  Very realistic.

The main problem with Mark was his desire to avoid conflict and take the path of least resistance in all cases.  When Rachel showed up on his doorstep and wanted to move in, he called Jen, found out she was fed up with her and immediately agreed she could live with him without consulting Elizabeth or delving further into Rachel's problems and figuring out what was best for all of them.  Then, every time Rachel stepped out of line, he gave her a wimpy talking-to and pretended everything was all better. I will say he was written consistently throughout the show, both at home and at work, he was passive and disengaged rather than invite conflict.

these are all great "Mark is a wimp/bad at being direct " examples. I did like how the show had him on his deathbed (the Hawaii episode) really try to connect with Rachel. It was good acting. You could see the desperation of a dad trying to get a message across with so little time.

I watched Season 15, Old Times last night--otherwise known as the episode with Carol and Doug and Benton. I was so happy to get to see Benton again. Carol and Doug were a nice touch, but since Benton got to interact with Carter, that was 10 times better--and they made it classic Benton with him insisting on the checklist. Loved that. I had totally forgotten Susan Sarandon was in the episode.

[Growsonwalls]

"Masquerade" was an awesome episode. I always like the Halloween episodes. Now this is the way to do "light ER." Watching Peter dress up and take Corday for a "hay ride" was just so fun, as were the pranks Carol and Doug pulled on each other. Even the medical cases had dark humor to them, like the Barbie who "was a Ken."

I thought Mark's attempt to comfort Weaver about the Chief Resident was so transparent. He obviously didn't fight very hard for her to get that job.

The only really dark storyline involved (sigh) Carter and Lucy again:

1) Why did Carter become so dour in Season 5? The beard? The RA job? Being cut off from Gamma Carter's trust fund? 

2) I don't like Lucy but Carter shouldn't have blamed her for the party. These parties get out of hand and Lucy isn't their babysitter. 

[Growsonwalls]

3 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I watched Season 15, Old Times last night--otherwise known as the episode with Carol and Doug and Benton. I was so happy to get to see Benton again. Carol and Doug were a nice touch, but since Benton got to interact with Carter, that was 10 times better--and they made it classic Benton with him insisting on the checklist. Loved that. I had totally forgotten Susan Sarandon was in the episode.

You would not believe how much I screamed with joy when both Benton and Doug showed up onscreen in scrubs. And they still looked great in those scrubs all those years later! I thought it was a great gesture to the ER fans. Somehow to have Doug or Benton wearing business suits wouldn't have seemed right.

[Dr.OO7]

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Mark's way of "managing" Kerry infuriated me the most. Mark was Kerry's direct supervisor. When EVERYONE in the ER has an issue with Kerry's style, Mark needed to take a firmer hand with Kerry. These conflicts went on for seasons and it happened with everyone. 

I didn't have an ounce of sympathy for him when she screwed him over to get the ER Chief position and started running roughshod over him.

Though I do love that moment when he briefly grew a pair and screamed, "SHUT UP Kerry, or GET OUT!"

[Growsonwalls]

The thing about Kerry that annoys me is that she did all these officious obnoxious things not because she wanted to but because she thought it would get her a promotion. For instance in Masquerade she charges Jerry for him taking the wheelchair/IV for that Halloween prank. But when she finds out she's been passed over as chief she angrily rips up the bill and says she didn't give a shit about the expenses he rang up for that prank. 

Also once Doug got his pediatric attending position that she fought so hard against she realized she kind of liked him in the position, especially as Doug was a pretty stern manager himself and there was less work for her to do.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

5 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I watched Season 15, Old Times last night--otherwise known as the episode with Carol and Doug and Benton. I was so happy to get to see Benton again. Carol and Doug were a nice touch, but since Benton got to interact with Carter, that was 10 times better--and they made it classic Benton with him insisting on the checklist. Loved that. I had totally forgotten Susan Sarandon was in the episode.

And I liked that they had Benton yelling "Carter!" again like old times because Carter was in the bathroom and Benton didn't know where he was. 

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

1) Why did Carter become so dour in Season 5? The beard? The RA job? Being cut off from Gamma Carter's trust fund? 

2) I don't like Lucy but Carter shouldn't have blamed her for the party. These parties get out of hand and Lucy isn't their babysitter. 

1) I think the lack of funds/having an RA job where he was barely getting any sleep and apparently had no AC (that would make me super angry - I hate being hot!), plus he had to deal with a med student he didn't mesh with, so I'm guessing that's why. 

2) Yeah, it was unfair, but that was just on the writers who did it to add to the ongoing conflict between the two of them. I think though, hadn't she either volunteered to be in charge of the party, or he gave her that responsibility or something since he couldn't be there? 

[Dr.OO7]

16 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

And I liked that they had Benton yelling "Carter!" again like old times because Carter was in the bathroom and Benton didn't know where he was. 

Benton's shock over Kem was priceless.

"YOU married a sister?!"

[Growsonwalls]

38 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

And I liked that they had Benton yelling "Carter!" again like old times because Carter was in the bathroom and Benton didn't know where he was. 

1) I think the lack of funds/having an RA job where he was barely getting any sleep and apparently had no AC (that would make me super angry - I hate being hot!), plus he had to deal with a med student he didn't mesh with, so I'm guessing that's why. 

2) Yeah, it was unfair, but that was just on the writers who did it to add to the ongoing conflict between the two of them. I think though, hadn't she either volunteered to be in charge of the party, or he gave her that responsibility or something since he couldn't be there? 

She had "volunteered" only in the most general way, like "yeah I'll make sure it doesn't get too wild." But Carter should have realized that she was only a third year medical student herself and she wanted to party too. Him blaming her for things a party going wild was unfair. She's not their babysitter.

I have a feeling though that by this episode the writers had realized that the chemistry between NW and Kellie Martin just wasn't there, and this "let's make Lucy happen" push was becoming more half-hearted. 

Here is an interview with Kellie Martin about her whole ER experience.

I wonder if her prominence caused tension with some other female cast members. I noticed in Season 5 that Jeanie Boulet and Maggie Doyle disappear for long stretches.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I never liked how Maggie Doyle just kind of... disappeared. I don't even remember anyone commenting on her not being around anymore, to provide some resolution. Same with 'Bob'. I wish there had been an update on her at some point. Nurse Lydia disappeared for years until the last episode of the show, and the excuse was that she was working night shifts. Except we never saw her during night shifts during that time, so maybe it would have made more sense for them to say she was working upstairs in another department or something. Maybe a goodbye from Randi too. I'm just picky like that, haha. 

I was looking at the credits and was amused to see that most of the EMTs (Doris, Pam, Dwight, etc) were in many more episodes than some of the 'main' characters, like Susan and Carol. I mean, obviously it makes sense, it's just interesting to see the total number of episodes everyone was in. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108757/fullcredits 

[Growsonwalls]

I always felt like "Bob" landed on the wrong show. "Bob" would have been a great character on LOST. We could have had time-traveling, island moving, numbers-crunching, flashback/flashforward/flashsideways nose-bleeding "Bob." "Bob" could have been someone who all of a sudden was able to heal patients again on the island. "Bob" would have been Jack and Juliet meshed into one. My mind is running away with the possibilities of "Bob" on LOST. 

Trying to think who else on ER could have been on LOST. LOST loved its damaged-inside doctors (see: Jack and Juliet), so maybe Doug? 

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I always felt like "Bob" landed on the wrong show. "Bob" would have been a great character on LOST. We could have had time-traveling, island moving, numbers-crunching, flashback/flashforward/flashsideways nose-bleeding "Bob." "Bob" could have been someone who all of a sudden was able to heal patients again on the island. "Bob" would have been Jack and Juliet meshed into one. My mind is running away with the possibilities of "Bob" on LOST. 

Trying to think who else on ER could have been on LOST. LOST loved its damaged-inside doctors (see: Jack and Juliet), so maybe Doug? 

They had some odd characters, Bob was one. You could understand the foreign issues with her degree, but it was almost comical/weird.

I remember Abby Keaton with Carter, I wondered about her quick exit but then I read they were hiding her pregnancy on TV. Couldn't have that going on with John. ; )

Benton's face on this scene. lol  

[debraran]

On 9/5/2018 at 10:39 PM, Bastet said:

Wouldn't he have been sending her back to her mother, not tossing her out on the streets?

I don't remember the specifics, but I have a general sense that Rachel coming to live with Mark (and Corday) to begin with was not a simple matter of shifting from one parent to another, but her being rewarded for acting like a shithead (maybe a typical teen, maybe more; she did run away or something) in one primary home by getting to shift her primary residence to the other home, the one with the parent who is more lax on discipline.  Then her irresponsibility nearly kills her little sister, and going back to Jen's would mean just focusing on Rachel's issues, not also having to guard against her once again putting an infant at risk?  Yeah, buy that twit a train ticket.

They did make Rachel unlikable for whatever reason. Most children weren't given the "cuteness" factor except Reese (loved Reese!)  I felt they had Mark act overly guilty as a parent. Divorce sucks and her parents both worked a lot which is hard. I guess a loving nanny which some get with a high powered career wasn't written in, but I could see her feeling lost not having a sibling and being alone or with babysitters while Mom worked long hours.  Her Dad was also away or working long shifts.  I felt when Mark was sick, she still was rebelling and that was harder for me to swallow. One thing ER did with salaries was make most of them seem 2 steps from poverty, pay for ER nurses wasn't bad, residents and new doctor's were not high but higher than most. A two income salary as Mark and Lizzy had or a partner in a law firm like Jen could pay for many things. Only Romano was shown to have money and later Ross did VERY well leaving County, but really they all were pretty secure and had ways to earn more.  Maybe Rachel needed counseling with both parents or a new school but Mark dropped the ball after the baby almost died.

Edited September 7, 2018 by debraran

[Growsonwalls]

I could picture Mark having a lot of debt because it seems he married early, bought a house that he couldn't afford while still an intern/resident, and Jen also had to be put through law school. Also medical school loans and insurance would have taken a huge chunk of his paycheck.

Carter was fine but he was independently wealthy.

Doug wasn't rich but I don't remember him being poor either at County General. He always had a nice car, and okayish apartment and plenty of money for bars, clubs, and women. 

Susan was depicted as poor but she had a difficult family situation and it was implied that Chloe was eating away at a lot of her money.

Benton lived simply but that was just his personality. 

[Heathen]

11 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I could picture Mark having a lot of debt because it seems he married early, bought a house that he couldn't afford while still an intern/resident, and Jen also had to be put through law school. Also medical school loans and insurance would have taken a huge chunk of his paycheck.

Carter was fine but he was independently wealthy.

Doug wasn't rich but I don't remember him being poor either at County General. He always had a nice car, and okayish apartment and plenty of money for bars, clubs, and women. 

Susan was depicted as poor but she had a difficult family situation and it was implied that Chloe was eating away at a lot of her money.

Benton lived simply but that was just his personality. 

Greene didn't buy the house until he had been an attending for five-ish years. Corday moved in at the same time he did. 

[Heathen]

I'm up to the Joi Abbott episodes in my latest rewatch. Something that has always bothered me -- Joi Abbott talking about Ricky in front of him. "Ricky's my responsibility. I have to see him through this" or "Sometimes my daughter plays with him." I understand that the character blamed herself for passing the faulty gene to her sons and that she was overwhelmed, but really, did she have to be such a bitch? She's always been such an unlikable character for me. 

[doodlebug]

42 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Greene didn't buy the house until he had been an attending for five-ish years. Corday moved in at the same time he did. 

And, prior to buying the house with Elizabeth, he lived in the tiny one bedroom apartment that Susan lived in while she was a resident.  He didn't even have a separate bedroom for when Rachel visited, his dying father was in the middle of the living room.  Very unrealistic.  While medical school debt could've been substantial in the early '90's, Mark would've had maybe $100, 000 tops, and he would've had 15 years to pay it back at a very low interest rate. Starting salaries for ER doc in the mid 90's would've been low 6 figures.  Mark didn't have to pay alimony, he and Jen didn't seem to have any significant community property to split and Rachel was an only child; his support payments would not have been onerous.  There was no reason he wouldn't have bought a condo or home in Chicago fairly soon after becoming an attending after his marriage ended.  At the very least, he should've had a very nice apartment with plenty of room for Rachel.

Disclosure:  I went to medical school in the early 80's.  We were only allowed to borrow $5000 a year for education.  I went to a 3 year med school (we went summers) and owed a grand total of $15,000 at graduation.  My parents gave me the occasional $20 for gas when I came home, I worked part-time the last year of medical school.  Even as a resident, when it came time to repay the loans, my payment was around $100 a month.  A lot of money (I made $23,000 as Chief resident), but I didn't struggle to pay it.  When I got out into practice, my accountant recommended paying it off slowly since the interest was so favorable (and deductible in those days); so I took the full 15 years to pay it off.  I rented a 3 bedroom home in the suburbs my first two years in practice, then bought my own home.  Mark lived well below his means.

[Growsonwalls]

With Jen though didn't they have a house in Season 1 until they got divorced? That was when he moved into Susan's old apartment.

One thing I caught: they didn't have the doctors in the iconic scrubs till Season 2. In Season 1 Mark, Doug, etc. wore the white coats with ties. I don't know how they were supposed to treat bloody "GSWs" with those white coats and ties flailing about which is why I guess they switched to the scrubs in Season 2. 

Also it wasn't till maybe mid-season 1 that Doug became the "Doug" of the series -- funny and warm. On rewatch at first he was much more serious and his storylines were rather soapy with so much relationship drama and angst. It's hard to remember that back then George Clooney wasn't a known name at all. I feel like as the series became a bigger hit the writers probably wrote Clooney's own personality into the character -- his famous love of jokes and pranks and his trademark giggle.

[doodlebug]

42 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

With Jen though didn't they have a house in Season 1 until they got divorced? That was when he moved into Susan's old apartment.

One thing I caught: they didn't have the doctors in the iconic scrubs till Season 2. In Season 1 Mark, Doug, etc. wore the white coats with ties. I don't know how they were supposed to treat bloody "GSWs" with those white coats and ties flailing about which is why I guess they switched to the scrubs in Season 2. 

Also it wasn't till maybe mid-season 1 that Doug became the "Doug" of the series -- funny and warm. On rewatch at first he was much more serious and his storylines were rather soapy with so much relationship drama and angst. It's hard to remember that back then George Clooney wasn't a known name at all. I feel like as the series became a bigger hit the writers probably wrote Clooney's own personality into the character -- his famous love of jokes and pranks and his trademark giggle.

I think they were renting an apartment in a house like a duplex or maybe a typical Chicago three-flat though.  They did have a small backyard which we saw a time or two.  However, there was no mention of selling it when they separated, so I don't think they owned it.

Carter was still wearing his usual dress shirt and tie until around the time that Mark died. Back when I was a resident, most of the ER attendings and residents dressed in street clothes with a white coat.  The guys virtually always wore ties.  They would only wear scrubs if they'd gotten slimed.

These days, in real ER's, the attending staff and residents generally wear scrubs or matching polo shirts along with chinos or khakis.  The hospital where I work has the ER staff in same-color polos with the hospital logo and the doc's name stitched on the front.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I didn't like the Joi Abbot character either.   Some of the parents seemed to think it was all about them, and that they should keep their suffering child alive with any means they could, but ignore the fact that the kid was in terrible pain, and wasn't getting any better.    The foster mother (Patty McCormick, the grown up Bad Seed star) that Romano opposed her foster child getting a procedure was all kinds of wrong, just because she couldn't let go.    

Mark's lifestyle might have also been very restricted because he talked about leaving County for better paying jobs, probably closer to his daughter, so buying would have been a mistake for him.      If his loans, and Jen's school bills were being paid off, plus their regular living expenses, then he might have had very little extra money.      The real explanation is probably that the producers didn't want to get another set, so they could just use the apartment for years since two different characters lived there. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[Bastet]

The show liked going overboard in presenting these characters as devoted souls forgoing more lucrative careers in order to help the unwashed masses at County, which is why they created these exaggerated scenarios where even the doctors could just make rent and put food on the table on their salaries.  That only someone with family money like Carter could live comfortably on this job, so for everyone else it was a major sacrifice.

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

The show liked going overboard in presenting these characters as devoted souls forgoing more lucrative careers in order to help the unwashed masses at County, which is why they created these exaggerated scenarios where even the doctors could just make rent and put food on the table on their salaries.  That only someone with family money like Carter could live comfortably on this job, so for everyone else it was a major sacrifice.

That's the Hospital Paradaiso trope:

"Come work for this fancy law firm/security firm/medical office and make millions of dollars a year!"

"NO! I'm going to keep working at the crappy DA's office/police station/hospital for five cents, practicing REAL law/police work/medicine, working for the people, damnit!"

I hate how they always make it a bad thing that someone might want to make more money and have (hypothetically) better working hours after years of the grind.

[txhorns79]

Quote

"Come work for this fancy law firm/security firm/medical office and make millions of dollars a year!"

"NO! I'm going to keep working at the crappy DA's office/police station/hospital for five cents, practicing REAL law/police work/medicine, working for the people, damnit!"

Heck, the pilot episode has Mark being offered a wonderful, well paying job with great hours and he rejects it.  I remember thinking how dumb he was.  

[Growsonwalls]

Also in the episode "Hell and High Water" Doug is offered a cushy job as a pediatrician in a private practice and has already submitted his resignation before he becomes a local hero. I think he said at the private practice he would make 90k a year which seems ... a bit low? As a pediatrician wouldn't he make in the six figures in the mid-90s?

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Heck, the pilot episode has Mark being offered a wonderful, well paying job with great hours and he rejects it.  I remember thinking how dumb he was.  

I don't have a problem with that; he loves what he does in County's ER, and much of what he likes about it wouldn't have existed in that private practice job he was offered.  I think he turned it down without properly discussing it with Jen and accounting for its implications for her, though, and that's part of his unfair pattern of prioritizing his career goals over hers.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Bastet

[Heathen]

6 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I think they were renting an apartment in a house like a duplex or maybe a typical Chicago three-flat though.  They did have a small backyard which we saw a time or two.  However, there was no mention of selling it when they separated, so I don't think they owned it.

Carter was still wearing his usual dress shirt and tie until around the time that Mark died. Back when I was a resident, most of the ER attendings and residents dressed in street clothes with a white coat.  The guys virtually always wore ties.  They would only wear scrubs if they'd gotten slimed.

These days, in real ER's, the attending staff and residents generally wear scrubs or matching polo shirts along with chinos or khakis.  The hospital where I work has the ER staff in same-color polos with the hospital logo and the doc's name stitched on the front.

I remember the Mark-Jen house as being like Nelson's trailer by the train tracks.

46 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Also in the episode "Hell and High Water" Doug is offered a cushy job as a pediatrician in a private practice and has already submitted his resignation before he becomes a local hero. I think he said at the private practice he would make 90k a year which seems ... a bit low? As a pediatrician wouldn't he make in the six figures in the mid-90s?

That figure struck me as low, too. Maybe the producers and/or writers made the salary figures low to make the characters more relatable to viewers. 

[doodlebug]

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

The show liked going overboard in presenting these characters as devoted souls forgoing more lucrative careers in order to help the unwashed masses at County, which is why they created these exaggerated scenarios where even the doctors could just make rent and put food on the table on their salaries.  That only someone with family money like Carter could live comfortably on this job, so for everyone else it was a major sacrifice.

Yep, and it is just not true.  I worked for a County Hospital in the early 90's and took a pay cut to go out on my own and start a practice.  County hospital employees early salaries that are quite competitive with those of other health care professionals who don't work for the County.  Plus, their retirement benefits, as government employees, are far better than in the private sector.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

I remember the Mark-Jen house as being like Nelson's trailer by the train tracks.

That figure struck me as low, too. Maybe the producers and/or writers made the salary figures low to make the characters more relatable to viewers. 

No, that was probably in the ballpark for a starting salary at the time.  Pediatricians have the lowest salaries on average amongst physicians.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Heck, the pilot episode has Mark being offered a wonderful, well paying job with great hours and he rejects it.  I remember thinking how dumb he was.  

Which, of course, made no sense whatsoever.  Mark was an ER doc, he had done an ER residency.  Yet, he was going to be working in a doctor's office?  Doing what?  There is no such thing as private practice for an ER doc and there is no way an internal medicine or family practice group is going to hire an ER specialist.  Mark had absolutely no training in management of chronic illness, wellness checks, screening exams or any of the dozens of other issues that would arise in a primary care doctor's office.  

Mark's options at the end of residency would've all been working as an ER doc.  He could stay at County, he could go with another hospital in either the city or the suburbs or he could get a gig at an urgent care.  That's it.

[debraran]

18 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Which, of course, made no sense whatsoever.  Mark was an ER doc, he had done an ER residency.  Yet, he was going to be working in a doctor's office?  Doing what?  There is no such thing as private practice for an ER doc and there is no way an internal medicine or family practice group is going to hire an ER specialist.  Mark had absolutely no training in management of chronic illness, wellness checks, screening exams or any of the dozens of other issues that would arise in a primary care doctor's office.  

Mark's options at the end of residency would've all been working as an ER doc.  He could stay at County, he could go with another hospital in either the city or the suburbs or he could get a gig at an urgent care.  That's it.

Back then ER medicine wasn't a real field. A lot of them were doctor's who couldn't do other things, didn't pass boards, etc. It's not like that now in most places but it wasn't the attractive specialty. They always downplayed the salaries to fit what objective they wanted. Some docs had nicer places than others. Most of Mark's places were "ehh" compared to others until him and Lizzy bought a home.

I hated hearing Carol go on about money when the twin's father had money and a boat and large home in another state. Feelings aside, he should have been helping with childcare, etc  Of course, when Carol decided to leave County, she left her job without notice, the twins with Mom, left her home/mortgage and I think car and most of her possessions to move in with Doug. I guess Mom had to help sell house and get things rolling. ; )  Sometimes life should be that easy.  lol

[doodlebug]

45 minutes ago, debraran said:

Back then ER medicine wasn't a real field. A lot of them were doctor's who couldn't do other things, didn't pass boards, etc. It's not like that now in most places but it wasn't the attractive specialty. They always downplayed the salaries to fit what objective they wanted. Some docs had nicer places than others. Most of Mark's places were "ehh" compared to others until him and Lizzy bought a home.

I hated hearing Carol go on about money when the twin's father had money and a boat and large home in another state. Feelings aside, he should have been helping with childcare, etc  Of course, when Carol decided to leave County, she left her job without notice, the twins with Mom, left her home/mortgage and I think car and most of her possessions to move in with Doug. I guess Mom had to help sell house and get things rolling. ; )  Sometimes life should be that easy.  lol

Actually, back then, ER was indeed a real field, with real residencies, just as it was portrayed on the show. The American College of Emergency Medicine was formed in 1979 and ER was recognized as a separate and distinct medical specialty and ER residencies were started at that time..  This was 15 years before the TV show debuted.  I started medical school in 1979 just as this was all happening and several members of my class in medical school entered ER residencies upon graduation in 1982.

Nowadays, the vast majority of physicians working full-time in ER's are Emergency Medicine specialists.  Back when the show debuted, we were told that Mark was Chief Resident in Emergency Medicine.  He wasn't someone who had done a residency in some other specialty and switched.  By that time, 15 years after establishment of the specialty, chief residents were from ER residencies and nowhere else.  We also saw David Morgenstern, the director of Emergency Medicine, doing General Surgery at County in addition to running the residency.  That was also typical of that time when, prior to 1979, doctors who worked in ER's would've been folks who had trained in other specialties and ended up in the ER.  While some of them couldn't cut it in other specialties, some were docs who really loved emergency services and they're the ones who got the ball rolling for emergency medicine to become its own specialty.  Guys like Morganstern, who'd ended up being ER specialists from origins in other fields were then 'grandfathered in' and given board certification in Emergency Medicine in the early days.  By the time Mark was out of medical school, there were more than enough emergency medicine residents to go around and he couldn't possibly have gotten a chief residency in ER without having been an actual ER resident.

[Dr.OO7]

37 minutes ago, debraran said:

hated hearing Carol go on about money when the twin's father had money and a boat and large home in another state. Feelings aside, he should have been helping with childcare, e

A fanfic established that Doug WAS sending her child support, but she was being too stubborn and proud to cash the checks.

Of course, that's fanfiction. 

[doodlebug]

1 minute ago, Camille said:

A fanfic established that Doug WAS sending her child support, but she was being too stubborn and proud to cash the checks.

Of course, that's fanfiction. 

The whole storyline was total idiocy.  Doug never would've left town in a huff and abandoned Carol, let alone abandoned his children.  Doug was apparently making outrageous money in Seattle, doing what I am not sure since pediatrics doesn't pay enough for multimillion dollar homes on lakes; but surely he would've sent child support to Carol.  As for Carol not cashing the checks, I recall that she not only didn't have a decent car for her family, she also had Luka trying to fix her hot water heater because she couldn't afford a new one.  Even if Doug hadn't been paying support, she was nurse manager of the ER and her salary should've been more than adequate to cover those things.  Then, with Doug's support, she could've had a full time nanny to watch her kids at home rather than using the day care.

[Growsonwalls]

50 minutes ago, debraran said:

Back then ER medicine wasn't a real field. A lot of them were doctor's who couldn't do other things, didn't pass boards, etc. It's not like that now in most places but it wasn't the attractive specialty. They always downplayed the salaries to fit what objective they wanted. Some docs had nicer places than others. Most of Mark's places were "ehh" compared to others until him and Lizzy bought a home.

I hated hearing Carol go on about money when the twin's father had money and a boat and large home in another state. Feelings aside, he should have been helping with childcare, etc  Of course, when Carol decided to leave County, she left her job without notice, the twins with Mom, left her home/mortgage and I think car and most of her possessions to move in with Doug. I guess Mom had to help sell house and get things rolling. ; )  Sometimes life should be that easy.  lol

Well Doug probably took a few days off work and got a U-Haul or ordered movers to move Carol and the twins' stuff. He didn't seem to be hurting for money so the move was probably pretty easy to plan logistically. 

The whole season where Carol/Juliana Marguiles was still under contract was awkward (a bit like the season Luka left but Maura Tierney was still under contract) but if you think about it ... 

Carol had the twins Thanksgiving.

She mentioned Doug wanting her to move to Seattle asap and she wouldn't go. She mentioned Doug came to visit the twins/

Around her birthday Doug in May sent her animal crackers with a more urgent message to move to Seattle.

By end of May she's decided to go live happily ever after with Doug.

So it was a really drawn out storyline (and had that totally annoying Luka romance subplot) but in real time Carol was only alone with the twins for 6 months before she decided to move to Seattle where she got to live in a big house with a boat and one assumes plenty of room for a nursery for the twins. So in the end it really was just a blip in her life.

ETA: I agree the way they decided to write out George Clooney but continue with Carol's storyline was idiotic. Carol and Doug were so close that Carol was incredibly upset if she spent even one night apart from Doug. All of a sudden he's going to Seattle and he tells her to come along with him and she's like nah? Finds out she's preggo with twins and is still like "Nah?" Only decides to go when she sees a family dying of cancer? Bleh. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Heathen]

Joi Abbott was unlikable, but her (estranged) husband was an absolute ass. He wanted Greene to save his obviously terminally ill child and even refused a DNR order. And he apparently hadn't seen Ricky in awhile! 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Heathen

[Growsonwalls]

Omg I forgot this ever happened: