Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

I don't think there were that many parallels between Neal and Henry in terms of magic.  In fact, Henry is a magic welder right now with his Author-ship.  Henry's life was horrible in magic-less Storybrooke.  Henry has expressed the wish to have magic multiple times whereas Baelfire never did so.  Henry has a positive magical role model, which is Emma.  

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I don't think there were that many parallels between Neal and Henry in terms of magic.  In fact, Henry is a magic welder right now with his Author-ship.  Henry's life was horrible in magic-less Storybrooke.  Henry has expressed the wish to have magic multiple times whereas Baelfire never did so.  Henry has a positive magical role model, which is Emma.  

And you've now explained why the S5 finale's plot was totally asinine. 

Edited October 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The episode was basically a walking contradiction - Henry.  I'm surprised six or seven intelligent people sitting in a room together didn't figure that out.  

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The episode was basically a walking contradiction - Henry.  I'm surprised six or seven intelligent people sitting in a room together didn't figure that out.  

Hey, Henry - magic doesn't kill people. Your family tree does.

[Rumsy4]

Both of Henry's moms have kissed men who have slept with two of his grandmothers (Milah and Cora), one (or perhaps both) of them having slept both of those said grandmas, and both having slept with at least one of them. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

52 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Both of Henry's moms have kissed men who have slept with two of his grandmothers (Milah and Cora), one (or perhaps both) of them having slept both of those said grandmas, and both having slept with at least one of them. 

I would really like to know how Storybrooke doesn't have incest problems. It has a very small gene pool.

Edited November 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

I would really like to know how Storybrooke doesn't have incest problems. It has a very small gene pool.

When they're back home, there's less of a problem because they can walk five minutes and be in another kingdom, with a whole new range of potential partners. They just have to be careful about pairing up while in Storybrooke. They also need to be careful if there's any chance that they could have secret or long-lost relatives. If a parent disappeared or had a mysterious past, you should probably get the magical equivalent of a DNA test before getting together with any person you feel an instant connection with.

At least with the Hook connection, he and Milah never had kids (that we know of, though you'd think that would have been something Milah would have mentioned in the Underworld, still, if they run out of ideas for season 7 ...), and Cora and Rumple didn't have kids (unless Regina is really Rumple's daughter, and now we're in Game of Thrones territory), so there's no genetic link anywhere in there. Hook isn't biologically related to anyone but Liam 2.0. Cora was only biologically related to Regina, who is unable to have children (until they decide to magically fix her because anything Emma can have or do, Regina must also have or do), and Zelena and now baby Pistachio. Regina actually has no genetic link to Henry, so he's not biologically related to any of her family.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Regina actually has no genetic link to Henry, so he's not biologically related to any of her family.

... Yet. Still waiting on that Daddy Charming/Jonathan reveal. ;)

Edited November 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

5 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Both of Henry's moms have kissed men who have slept with two of his grandmothers (Milah and Cora), one (or perhaps both) of them having slept both of those said grandmas, and both having slept with at least one of them. 

I don't think we ever had any confirmation that Hook slept with or kissed Cora, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Mathius]

From the Fandom thread...

Quote

but there's nothing incompatible about the characters at all.

I disagree, the fact that Regina is responsible for Emma spending 28 years of her life a lonely orphan is hard to get around.

And even if I could, there's also the Graham-sized elephant in the room.

Quote

You can argue the weird family connections with Captain Swan, too. She's with her son's grandmother's lover.

Is that weird?  Yes, even I am a little squicked out by it.  The difference is that the relationship Hook had with Emma's son's grandmother was a positive one...as you say, they were lovers.  Regina's relationship with both of Emma's parents, otoh, was a negative, antagonistic one in which she hurt and tried to kill them in terrible ways multiple times.  If Regina was just Emma's step-grandmother, it would be weird but I could still accept a SQ relationship just as I can accept a CS relationship despite the weirdness of Hook/Milah.  But that's not all that Regina was to Emma's family, she was also their biggest abuser.  I do not like the relationship she now shares with Snow and Charming (in which the writers have essentially had her replace Emma as their daughter-figure and greatest protector) based on this reason, and I would also dislike a romantic Emma/Regina relationship as well.

I could have accepted forgiveness toward Regina from Snow and Charming, but I can't accept friendship.

Likewise, I could accept friendship between Regina and Emma, but I can't accept a romantic relationship.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Mathius

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Mathius said:

I disagree, the fact that Regina is responsible for Emma spending 28 years of her life a lonely orphan is hard to get around.

And even if I could, there's also the Graham-sized elephant in the room.

As compared to Hook trying to kill multiple members of her family (no matter how distant) at one point? And didn't he attempt to murder Emma a couple times, too, when they first met? (I would have to go re-watch S2 to check, I'll try to come back later.)

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

I genuinely thought that EQ would make a move on either Charming or Hook or both so I am baffled by the Regina/Gold development. Do you all think it would have been better if she was being equally flirty with everyone including Gold as opposed to just Gold alone? I am sure that would bring in a slut shaming element which I am not here for but for me EQ's previous interactions with men (Graham excluded) were more about her using every weapon in her arsenal to mess with them whereas this Rumple thing seems more like she is either 100% genuine or she's trying to beat Rumple at his own game or something. I don't get it. 

I thought at first the writers were playing the "evil seductress" angle with the EQ/Rumple thing. But is seems they're going for a genuine attraction on the EQ's side, something she never felt free to act on before the split. Is she the Will Scarlet of this season, out to drive Rumbelle angst? The shoe's on the other foot for Belle, apparently. I disliked the Will/Belle "romance" because it was only there to drive Rumbelle angst, and he deserved better. 

Rumple wants to get Belle back. While he didn't stop the EQ kiss, he didn't seem attracted to her. However, I felt that he was a bit shaken. This is how affairs start--marital issues + someone else ready to give attention. If Rumple does get it on with the EQ, it would be a terrible move. I mean, this is not GoT. He's likely been with Cora, and is going to have a child with his wife. I would say that would be the death-knell for Rumbelle.

I totally expected EQ! to try to seduce Hook and/or Charming. Maybe she will...

[PixiePaws1]

3 hours ago, Mathius said:

 

Likewise, I could accept friendship between Regina and Emma, but I can't accept a romantic relationship.

Same here. I  never saw one smidge of chemistry between them. I  thought Lana was magnificent with her cold as hell portrayal of Regina in SB in s1. She didn't go with the OTP representation of cartoon evil..she had this dead cold killler look in her whenever she looked at Emma...like a snake looking at an insect she was going kill and eat.

There was never even a hint of same sex attraction. She had full control of the curse and could tske any heart she wanted before the curse hit to control anyone in SB ...she chose to sexually abuse a man for 28 years, not a woman, at least that we saw on screen or ever heard about. (Not sure i expressed this right...not wanting to offend anyone...i can be very 'word clumsy '). Sexual abuse is about power and cruelty but in this particular situation the abuser had free rein to force anyone in her bed...she picked a man.

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As compared to Hook trying to kill multiple members of her family (no matter how distant) at one point? And didn't he attempt to murder Emma a couple times, too, when they first met? (I would have to go re-watch S2 to check, I'll try to come back later.)

...to each his own interpretation but for me....Regina trying to murder me when I  was MINUTES old would pretty much trump anything Hook did (Although he never maliciously directly intentionally attempted to murder Emma that i can recall...running off with the bean i equate to saving myself when a building is falling down around me and no one else has the sense to come with me). 

Edited November 2, 2016 by PixiePaws1

[asabovesobelow]

15 minutes ago, PixiePaws1 said:

Same here. I  never saw one smidge of chemistry between them. I  thought Lana was magnificent with her cold as hell portrayal of Regina in SB in s1. She didn't go with the OTP representation of cartoon evil..she had this dead cold killler look in her whenever she looked at Emma...like a snake looking at an insect she was going kill and eat.

There was never even a hint of same sex attraction. She had full control of the curse and could tske any heart she wanted before the curse hit to control anyone in SB ...she chose to sexually abuse a man for 28 years, not a woman, at least that we saw on screen or ever heard about. (Not sure i expressed this right...not wanting to offend anyone...i can be very 'word clumsy '). Sexual abuse is about power and cruelty but in this particular situation the abuser had free rein to force anyone in her bed...she picked a man.

Funny...I've seen more chemistry between Emma and Regina that just about anybody else on the entire show. Cold, mean, killer Regina in S1 was spot on, with just enough closeness and space invasion to make one wonder about her long game. I found there to be tons of hints of attraction between them.

I don't think Regina choosing to sexually abuse a man for 28 years says anything at all about her sexuality. Like you said, it's about power and control, and maybe she liked the idea of lording control over a man instead of a woman. (Granted, I don't think Regina is gay, but I don't think Graham proves that point.)

[Rumsy4]

36 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

Funny...I've seen more chemistry between Emma and Regina that just about anybody else on the entire show. ... Like you said, it's about power and control, and maybe she liked the idea of lording control over a man instead of a woman. (Granted, I don't think Regina is gay, but I don't think Graham proves that point.)

A little confused here. You think Emma and Regina have sexual chemistry, but you don't think Regina is gay? Do you mean you don't think she is a lesbian, or do you think she is straight? 

Quote

There was never even a hint of same sex attraction. She had full control of the curse and could tske any heart she wanted before the curse hit to control anyone in SB 

Plus she has only been with men in a non-rapey situation as well. However, the writers turned Red into a bisexual character. And I know people some people ship Dragon Queen (I could get behind that pairing). So, people can always fanwank Regina as bi or pan, and the writers are likely never going to endorse or contradict that. 

I don't see any sexual chemistry between Regina and Emma, but chemistry can be very subjective. I don't think it's written into canon, and I don't see Lana playing it that way either. Interviews and social media are a different thing, but it shouldn't really count for anything in the Show. I do think that 4A stepped into queerbaiting territory with the promotion, but if 4.05 was supposed to be a romantic epsidoe, then, I donno what to say... I do think Emma sacrificing for Regina's happiness at the end of 4B could be considered as proof of SQ from Emma's side if taken out of context. She saved all of Storybrooke from the black goo, but her intention to save Regina was emphasized in the dialogue. Regina didn't seem grateful in any way in S5, and called her an idiot, but she did volunteer to go to the UW to save Hook. But Emma is the "savior", and taken in the broad context of the Show, it only comes across as Regina-pandering, and part of Emma's savior complex. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Rumsy4

[asabovesobelow]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

A little confused here. You think Emma and Regina have sexual chemistry, but you don't think Regina is gay? Do you mean you don't think she is a lesbian, or do you think she is straight? 

Meaning, I don't think she is specifically written as gay, but yes, I do see sexual chemistry between the two. I could definitely see her being bisexual with that Maleficent-magic backstory. The common denominator in F/F relationships (interpreted, anyway) is usually Regina.

[CCTC]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I totally expected EQ! to try to seduce Hook and/or Charming. Maybe she will...

I really thought they were going to go further along that route in season one with cursed David, but if I remember correctly he gently said thanks but no thanks after one offering of lasagna.  I thought they were going to drag it out a few more episodes of whether he would fall for her charms before remembering his love for Snow.  Nice they did not go for the obvious cliche.   Similarly, one of the bigger surprises in last week's episode was they did not do the cliche of having Belle see Regina and Gold kiss.

[Curio]

13 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't see any sexual chemistry between Regina and Emma, but chemistry can be very subjective. I don't think it's written into canon, and I don't see Lana playing it that way either. 

 

Replying in the fandom thread.

[Mathius]

5 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As compared to Hook trying to kill multiple members of her family (no matter how distant) at one point? And didn't he attempt to murder Emma a couple times, too, when they first met? (I would have to go re-watch S2 to check, I'll try to come back later.)

No, he never attempted to murder Emma.  He was captured when they first met, then teamed up with her and helped her on the beanstalk.  He later left Emma and Snow in a cell to potentially die once, but this was after they (and Aurora and Mulan) had left him chained up on the beanstalk, which Hook even pointed out...and before that, they had been willing to leave him tied to a tree where he would be outright killed by ogres, so it all evens out.  After they escaped, he and Emma swordfought and when he had her at a disadvantage offered her a chance to surrender rather than be killed...but nobody seems to remember that part of the line and only remember the innuendo part ("A bit of advice? When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it. You might want to quit.")

Afterwards, he never made any murder attempts on her or any of her family aside from Rumple (who is only family my blood, not by deed).  He almost left them to die in the S2 finale but came back by choice to save them (it was too late for that since Emma and Regina already stopped the failsafe, but he was in time to provide them with the only means of pursuing and saving Henry), and similarly almost allowed them to taken to Hell in the 5A finale when they were marked by the other Dark Ones but chose to die in order to save them even if it also meant sparing Rumple, his intended victim.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Mathius

[TheGreenKnight]

7 hours ago, PixiePaws1 said:

...to each his own interpretation but for me....Regina trying to murder me when I  was MINUTES old would pretty much trump anything Hook did (Although he never maliciously directly intentionally attempted to murder Emma that i can recall...running off with the bean i equate to saving myself when a building is falling down around me and no one else has the sense to come with me). 

Yes, to each his own, because attempted murder is the same regardless of the context to me.

4 hours ago, Mathius said:

No, he never attempted to murder Emma.  He was captured when they first met, then teamed up with her and helped her on the beanstalk.  He later left Emma and Snow in a cell to potentially die once, but this was after they (and Aurora and Mulan) had left him chained up on the beanstalk, which Hook even pointed out...and before that, they had been willing to leave him tied to a tree where he would be outright killed by ogres, so it all evens out.  After they escaped, he and Emma swordfought and when he had her at a disadvantage offered her a chance to surrender rather than be killed...but nobody seems to remember that part of the line and only remember the innuendo part ("A bit of advice? When I jab you with my sword, you’ll feel it. You might want to quit.")

Afterwards, he never made any murder attempts on her or any of her family aside from Rumple (who is only family my blood, not by deed).  

Sounds mostly like excuses to me. But the characters on the show do consider Rumpel family (for whatever reason--Henry, I guess), which means Belle is also a part of the count. Or the fact that he aided Cora, who would've killed all of them.

[KAOS Agent]

It's come to the point where attempting to kill the Charmings makes you a part of the family. Maybe that's why they rejected Emma during her Dark Swan arc. She didn't try to kill them.

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

It's come to the point where attempting to kill the Charmings makes you a part of the family. Maybe that's why they rejected Emma during her Dark Swan arc. She didn't try to kill them.

Right? What's with this town and Stockholm Syndrome?

[Shanna Marie]

I do think that there's a difference in effect on future interpersonal relationships between "you're in between me and the person I want to kill," "you're an ally of the person who wronged me," or "you betrayed me, so the gloves are off" and "I hate you so much that I can't be happy while you're still breathing and I need to erase you from any chance that you might affect my life."

You might be able to reconcile and move on from the first three, given appropriate apologies are made and it's clear that the perpetrator has learned a lesson and changed course. Mutual apologies may be required for the second two, since reconciliation would require acknowledgment of siding with the wrong person or betrayal. It's really hard to see reconciling and becoming friends with someone who hated you so much that they were driven to do absolutely anything to destroy you. That requires not only an apology (or twenty), but also a change of heart and mind regarding the hatred. That's what we haven't seen with Regina and her former victims. She's only made grudging, oblique apologies for peripheral things, but never for the curse, murders, or attempted murders, and she's never said she was wrong to want to kill Snow or Emma, never said she was wrong to blame Snow directly for Daniel's death. She's only grudgingly told Emma she doesn't want to kill her and told Snow she was a bad stepmother. I can see getting over the past with someone who wasn't targeting you specifically and who's admitted that revenge was wrong and apologized for the harm done. It's harder to see getting over the past with someone who devoted years to trying to kill you, who was willing to destroy a civilization to hurt you, and who still hasn't said it was wrong to do so or that she's sorry she did it and no longer feels that way. It seems really risky to trust Regina as much as they do when she's never said that she no longer blames Snow for ruining her life and no longer wants to kill her.

It's somewhat similar with Zelena and Regina, where getting back memories of one happy day in the past shouldn't undo the fact that Zelena tried to erase Regina from existence and then tried to strip the things that made her happy away from her, and Regina herself hadn't wronged Zelena. Has Zelena actually said she was wrong to go after Regina that way or apologized? Obviously, given recent events, Zelena couldn't be trusted and isn't over her resentment of Regina, though it might have helped if Regina didn't flip-flop so much on her -- making Robin trust her, then turning right around and having a hissy fit about the arrow.

Hook and Liam 2.0 may be one of the more realistic portrayals of reconciliation and relationship after a great wrong in the past, assuming that it goes the way it looks it will, with the likelihood that Liam's going to go off with Nemo on the Nautilus and not be seen in Storybrooke again. We had the reconciliation between the brothers, with Liam acknowledging that revenge was wrong and that his brother has changed since then and Killian acknowledging that what he did was wrong and that he regrets it, but then Liam still considering Nemo his true family, with Killian not part of that circle, slipping out of the room while they reunited. Liam's no longer out to kill Killian, but there's too much blood under that bridge for them to ever be all that close, and they're probably going to live separate lives.

[TheGreenKnight]

9 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I can see getting over the past with someone who wasn't targeting you specifically and who's admitted that revenge was wrong and apologized for the harm done.

We clearly interpret the show very differently, because I do think Regina has done both of those things. Regina's hatred of Emma was--like Hook's hatred of Belle--more to do with her relation to Snow, and the potential she might break the curse that was designed to make Snow suffer. Regina went to bat against anyone who helped Snow White or sided with her (Ariel, among many others), and that included Emma. Emma was just the first one powerful enough to beat Regina. But, again, a lot of this just feels like cherry-picking because I guarantee most people would not feel better about someone who was trying to kill them because they didn't mean it personally.

[Shanna Marie]

18 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Regina's hatred of Emma was--like Hook's hatred of Belle--more to do with her relation to Snow, and the potential she might break the curse that was designed to make Snow suffer.

Regina's attempt to murder Emma came when Emma was leaving town. Regina couldn't tolerate the idea that Emma might still exist, even when she was no longer a threat about the curse (or wouldn't have been, if Regina had left well enough alone).

And I do think it makes a difference whether it's meant personally. It makes a difference whether someone was aiming at you because they wanted you, in particular, to be dead or whether you got caught in the crossfire. It's the feeling behind the action that can do a lot to hamper the relationship because it means there was personal hatred there. It's a lot harder to develop a relationship of any kind with a person who hated you enough to want to kill you than with someone who hurt you because they hated someone else. With the latter, they don't really have to change their feelings about you because they never hated you, personally. Hating a person enough to want them dead isn't the kind of thing someone just gets over and moves past.

And when has Regina admitted that she was wrong to blame Snow for Daniel's death, that casting the curse was wrong, that trying to kill Emma was wrong? When has she apologized for it? She hasn't even taken responsibility for the effects of the curse. She can't talk to Snow about Snow not having been able to bring up her daughter without referring to it as Snow having "lost" Emma.

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And I do think it makes a difference whether it's meant personally. It makes a difference whether someone was aiming at you because they wanted you, in particular, to be dead or whether you got caught in the crossfire. It's the feeling behind the action that can do a lot to hamper the relationship because it means there was personal hatred there. It's a lot harder to develop a relationship of any kind with a person who hated you enough to want to kill you than with someone who hurt you because they hated someone else. With the latter, they don't really have to change their feelings about you because they never hated you, personally. Hating a person enough to want them dead isn't the kind of thing someone just gets over and moves past.

Sorry, I do not agree with any of this.

And when has Regina admitted that she was wrong to blame Snow for Daniel's death, that casting the curse was wrong, that trying to kill Emma was wrong? When has she apologized for it? She hasn't even taken responsibility for the effects of the curse. She can't talk to Snow about Snow not having been able to bring up her daughter without referring to it as Snow having "lost" Emma.

I believe Regina has apologized with actions. Helping Snow and Emma return to Storybrooke in S2, stopping the diamond-thing-whatever at the end of S2, giving Emma and Henry a good "past" to live happily outside Storybrooke at the end of 3A, helping to find Emma with the others in 5A, going to the Underworld to help Emma resurrect Hook, saving Snow's and Charming's lives at the beginning of S6.

And I feel like there have been several times Regina has apologized in dialogue including this season--although not explicitly bringing up specific wrongs that were done the way you would prefer--but surprisingly I don't remember exact dialogue from 100+ episodes and have no interest in re-watching the series with a notebook to recite things back to you. Mostly because I have a feeling that even if we had a whole episode where the only dialogue was Regina saying, "I'm sorry" for 60 minutes, people would still say, "She never apologized!"

[Camera One]

This season and 5B has been a breakthrough in the sense that Regina has acknowledged out loud that she cannot make up for all the lives she ruined.  I think this is a good step in her redemption.  She doesn't need to apologize for 60 minutes.  She only needs to say directly to Snow, Charming and Emma, "I am sorry I tried to kill you (and you and you).  I am sorry I murdered your father.  I am sorry I separated you from your daughter/your parents for 28 years. I am going to devote the rest of my life to righting the wrongs I committed."  

[asabovesobelow]

10 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I believe Regina has apologized with actions. Helping Snow and Emma return to Storybrooke in S2, stopping the diamond-thing-whatever at the end of S2, giving Emma and Henry a good "past" to live happily outside Storybrooke at the end of 3A, helping to find Emma with the others in 5A, going to the Underworld to help Emma resurrect Hook, saving Snow's and Charming's lives at the beginning of S6.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. These are not the actions of someone who is completely unaware that they have participated in the ruination of more than a few lives. I think the show has made it very clear that Regina is sorry for what she has done. So she's not good with words. Her actions more than make up for it.

Honestly, I think at this point if you don't like Regina, or think she's redeemed herself, you probably never will. There isn't much more she can do.

[Curio]

2 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

There isn't much more she can do.

Regina could return all the hearts in her vault to the people she took them from to avoid another Count of Monte Cristo incident, or she could spend longer than 30 seconds in jail, or she could finally confess to Emma she's been keeping Graham a secret for all these years, or confess to Belle she took her heart without permission, or she could be forced to live a modest life outside the most expensive and cushy mansion in Storybrooke, or she could lose her magic entirely...but in a show where morality and justice don't exist, these things will never happen.

[asabovesobelow]

4 minutes ago, Curio said:

Regina could return all the hearts in her vault to the people she took them from to avoid another Count of Monte Cristo incident, or she could spend longer than 30 seconds in jail, or she could finally confess to Emma she's been keeping Graham a secret for all these years, or confess to Belle she took her heart without permission, or she could be forced to live a modest life outside the most expensive and cushy mansion in Storybrooke, or she could lose her magic entirely...but in a show where morality and justice don't exist, these things will never happen.

But how would her spending time in jail or moving out of her mansion make her any sorrier than risking her life to save Emma's boyfriend in the Underworld?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

So she's not good with words. Her actions more than make up for it.

Honestly, I think at this point if you don't like Regina, or think she's redeemed herself, you probably never will. There isn't much more she can do.

No.  They do not.  When a person has done the kinds of things - intentional things - that Regina has done, actions are just not enough.  The words are also important.  People (her victims) need both to heal.  So that is what else she could do: she could actually say the words.   It doesn't matter if she's not good with words.  Suck it up.  (Are you saying as Mayor/Queen she never had to make a public speech?)  What matters is her sincerity.  (No eye-rolling, for example.)  It doesn't have to be fancy.  Just real.  "I'm sorry.  I was wrong for blaming Snow for Daniel's death and all the terrible things I did as a result."  That would be enough for me.   I used to like Regina (and sometimes I still do) - back when I thought the show would actually do her redemption the right way.  Too bad it hasn't. 

[Rumsy4]

She owed Emma one for saving her life from the Dark goo. Once she got to the UW, her goals changed to helping her father and mother move on to the afterlife. She had Robin and Henry when she offered to go to the UW with Emma. When she lost Robin, he first instinct was to want to rip out Hook's throat and punish Emma for being happy when she herself wasn't.

Regina has definitely changed a lot. But to say there is nothing more she can do to show remorse is a very subjective statement. A lot of her motivations seem to revolve around not losing Henry and the support of her friends (as she said in the S5 finale). Sure--that may be part of her struggle in her path to redemption. But let the writing acknowledge that she is on the path--not that she is some fully redeemed hero. 

Also, less unloading on Emma when she is upset, and less rewriting the past when it comes to her relationship with Snow.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

9 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

But how would her spending time in jail or moving out of her mansion make her any sorrier than risking her life to save Emma's boyfriend in the Underworld?

It takes more than feeling sorry, it's also about redeeming yourself after feeling sorry. You mentioned if someone doesn't think Regina has redeemed herself fully then there's nothing else she can do, so I was just listing off some things she could still do (or be done to her via karma) to further redeem herself and improve some of her relationships on the show. 

But those things are also for the audience's benefit because it's easier to accept a person's apology after they've suffered the proper karmic justice. Let's say someone stole your car, crashed it into your fence, and the police finds them. Would you buy that they were truly sorry if the police didn't handcuff or arrest them, and instead the person just said a quick "sorry" and drove away in their Mercedes to live in their fancy mansion without any punishment or paying any fees? Or would you actually buy an apology if that person was handcuffed, arrested, spent a few days in jail, had to sell their Mercedes to pay off the fines, and finally went to you to apologize and offer to fix your fence for free after karma came back to bite them? The first example is basically how this show treats Regina's character.

I actually do think Regina feels sorry for what she's done in the past and she's tried to show that she's sorry through her actions, but she still hasn't done enough to redeem everything. Honestly, she'll probably have to keep redeeming herself her entire life, much like Hook has to. Hook clearly felt sorry about what he'd done to Liam 2.0, but unless he went the extra step to redeem that relationship by bringing Liam 2.0 back together with Nemo on his own, the sorry would have felt hollow. Regina needs to do more of that. 

[asabovesobelow]

11 minutes ago, Curio said:

But those things are also for the audience's benefit because it's easier to accept a person's apology after they've suffered the proper karmic justice. Let's say someone stole your car, crashed it into your fence, and the police finds them. Would you buy that they were truly sorry if the police didn't handcuff or arrest them, and instead the person just said a quick "sorry" and drove away in their Mercedes to live in their fancy mansion without any punishment or paying any fees? Or would you actually buy an apology if that person was handcuffed, arrested, spent a few days in jail, had to sell their Mercedes to pay off the fines, and finally went to you to apologize and offer to fix your fence for free after karma came back to bite them? The first example is basically how this show treats Regina's character.

I think in that case, I'd be less likely to believe they were sorry, and more likely to believe they were sorry they got caught. It's a lot easier to be sorry when everything is taken from you than when nothing has changed. Clearly, there are those that disagree that Regina has tried to make up for what she has done, and should still be on the outskirts. The terror and pain she inflicted on others probably does not have viable path to redemption. But I feel that she is trying, her actions have spoken volumes, and being good with words (as the poster commented above) as mayor is very different than being good at apologies. Maybe she'll have a big sit-down with Emma and the Charmings and rehash everything she has done and properly apologize for it. Maybe not. Either way, I think she is the most complex and interesting character on the show, and her redemption arcs, while not perfect, work for me.

[Mathius]

Move this conversation to the Regina thread unless it has anything specifically to do with her relationships with others please.

I myself will be replying to some of the comments here on that thread.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

"I'm sorry.  I was wrong for blaming Snow for Daniel's death and all the terrible things I did as a result."

That's the part that's missing for me. She's never really acknowledged that she was wrong for that, and as a result, she's never said that she doesn't feel that way about Snow anymore. Without that, nothing else she does rings true. She's clearly changed her behavior, but she hasn't said why she's changed her behavior, other than stuff about wanting Henry in her life and not wanting to get a villain outcome. Because she did so much and her crimes are so enormous, she needs to outright say to Snow, "I spent so many years blaming you for Daniel's death and did so many horrible things to you and to others because of that, but I was wrong. Cora killed Daniel. Even if you did tell her about him, I know that you didn't mean any harm, and I know she probably manipulated you into telling her. She was such a master of manipulation that I fell into her trap as an adult when I knew exactly what she was. I should have known that you didn't stand a chance against her as a child when you had no idea what she was like. You had a good mother, so you assumed my mother was the same way. I can't undo what I did to you. I can't give you back your father. I can't give you back the time you spent as a fugitive. I can't give you back the years you missed out on with your daughter because of the curse. I can't take back all your suffering. But I want you to know that I'm sorry. If we ever get back to the Enchanted Forest, the kingdom is rightfully yours and I won't even call myself a queen anymore." Or something to that effect. Unfortunately, she hasn't really given any indication so far that this is even the way she feels.

As for any relationship, romantic or otherwise, between Regina and Emma, Graham is the big sticking point for me. On the romantic side, anyone who murdered a former partner for trying to leave is a big, huge, don't go there red flag. It's worse when he was a rape victim murdered for escaping his rapist's control. But even on the friendship side, I can't see having a friendly relationship with someone who murdered someone to keep him from being with you. Emma may not know this, but Regina does, and so this means that their so-called friendship is built on a false foundation, and it means that there's an ongoing betrayal there with Regina not coming clean. Worse, Regina lashed out at Emma for ruining her life because she saved Regina's boyfriend's long-lost wife, with no empathy or self awareness that she'd done worse to Emma in murdering Graham just as he and Emma were starting a relationship. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing -- if Emma knows, that should make a friendship impossible, but if Emma doesn't know, it means the friendship is false and based on an ongoing betrayal of trust, with the result being that it's all very one-sided, with Emma being a friend and Regina withholding things from her and blaming her for doing the same things Regina has done to her but is hiding from her.

[Souris]

I'm one who doesn't feel that Regina has shown real remorse for her previous actions. I need that spoken, heartfelt "I'm sorry" to Snow, David & Emma. The words ARE important. I feel like Regina still mostly sees her crimes through the lens of how it affected HER rather than how it affected her victims; she's more concerned with how her dark side makes HER feel now (which is why she tried to kill the EQ).

ITA with Shanna about Graham being a huge, glaring sticking point in any relationship between Emma & Regina. She put it perfectly.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Souris

[Curio]

Quote

I think in that case, I'd be less likely to believe they were sorry, and more likely to believe they were sorry they got caught. It's a lot easier to be sorry when everything is taken from you than when nothing has changed.

 

Responding in the morality thread.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Curio

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

She owed Emma one for saving her life from the Dark goo. Once she got to the UW, her goals changed to helping her father and mother move on to the afterlife. She had Robin and Henry when she offered to go to the UW with Emma. When she lost Robin, he first instinct was to want to rip out Hook's throat and punish Emma for being happy when she herself wasn't.

Instinct is NOT an action. Emma asked her how she felt and she answered her honestly. This is why Emma did not care. I think asabovesobelow is absolutely right that if you don't like the character being redeemed, you never will. Which is fine, but you shouldn't expect the show will cater to you. And let's be honest that what you think a person needs to do to "redeem" themselves is extremely subjective. In-show, Emma and Snow do feel that Regina has redeemed herself to them. *shrug*

Edited November 4, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Mari]

Snow also feels that stopping Cora from becoming the Dark One and murdering lots of people made Snow a bad person.

On this issue, Snow's judgment is suspect.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Mari
Putting in all the letters make it easier to read.

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Mari said:

Snow also feels that stopping Cora from becoming the Dark One and murdering lots of people made Snow a bad person.

On this issue, Snow's judgment is suspect.

Sounds like Snow is more concerned with her reputation than the people around her.

[Mari]

Possibly.

i wasn't arguing that Snow was an amazing, super forgiving person, just that Snow being friends with Regina is not necessarily proof that Regina's made what most people would consider reasonable amends.

[TheGreenKnight]

And Emma's judgment is suspect how?

[Mari]

Well, Emma grew up desperate for a family, and with the self esteem and attachment issues that come from having no stable person in her childhood.   She's not going to be so quick to reject someone who has the support of her mother and her son, Henry.

If Snow and Henry had to pick, they'd both likely pick Regina.  

[Curio]

15 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

And Emma's judgment is suspect how?

Emma has a faulty lie detector that's extremely inconsistent and her self-proclaimed close "friends" are a wooden man-child who has done numerous shady things behind her back and an eggnapped dragon girl she's only met a handful of times who screwed Emma over several times growing up and plotted to kill her parents. Emma really doesn't have the best instincts when it comes to choosing who her friends are.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

43 minutes ago, Mari said:

Snow also feels that stopping Cora from becoming the Dark One and murdering lots of people made Snow a bad person.

On this issue, Snow's judgment is suspect.

Snow had the darkness sucked out of her baby before she was ever born. Her judgement isn't just suspect. The woman is a mess. The more I find out about Snow, the more actively I root for the EQ to take her out.

[superloislane]

22 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

And Emma's judgment is suspect how?

Well Emma genuinely believes that either the Evil Queen or the 'nice side' of Regina will kill her in the future and doesn't seem to have any other suspects in mind and she believed that Regina would immediately go evil again in the season 5 finale so it's not like Emma has an unshakeable belief in Regina's 'redemption'

[YaddaYadda]

Never mind, nothing to see here. I actually remembered that they did explain Emma's motivation in her scenes with Hook right before she went into Granny's. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, superloislane said:

Well Emma genuinely believes that either the Evil Queen or the 'nice side' of Regina will kill her in the future and doesn't seem to have any other suspects in mind and she believed that Regina would immediately go evil again in the season 5 finale so it's not like Emma has an unshakeable belief in Regina's 'redemption'

Well, there wasn't any other options besides Rumpel or Zelena, was there--neither of whom have any outright ill will towards her like TEQ. She believed Regina would go evil again at the end of 5 because Daniel dying is what sent her off the deep end in the first place. That's a pretty normal reaction for Emma to expect following Robin's death. Btw, while I'm on that point, the contrast between Regina's choices following Robin's death and her choices following Daniel's death shows the character has progressed quite a huge degree over the course of the series.

[superloislane]

10 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Well, there wasn't any other options besides Rumpel or Zelena, was there--neither of whom have any outright ill will towards her like TEQ.

There are plenty of options. Hyde even said it could be someone from the Land of Untold Stories and her helping them could lead to her death. Emma is not the audience - she doesn't think the suspects have to be one of the regular characters.

 

14 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

That's a pretty normal reaction for Emma to expect following Robin's death.

You're right it is a normal reaction which is why I hate that she had to apologise for having that reaction to bratty Henry. But her thinking that Regina could go evil again if in the same circumstances as before does show that Emma believes that her 'redemption' is very fragile