Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[mjgchick]

I liked that talk Regina and Hook had in the S3 Premiere about happy endings. That was a really nice scene between them. Then she got all rude for the rest of the arc.

[PixiePaws1]

Hook and Regina could have been a hysterical snark-fest but neither would have encouraged the other to be their best self. at least with CS we get a reasonably well done redemption for one of the villains and if we can EVER be done with the angst and the separations I know we can get fun flirty Killian back (i still crack up at Emma's smirky face after Killian's response to her pillage & plunder line!) and he and Emma will give us some most amusing moments.

[mjgchick]

Those two do seem to know how to have fun even when their lives are in danger. lol

[KingOfHearts]

I don't necessarily have a problem with Henry crying over a lost crush, as overly emotional reactions are common in teenagers. What I do take issue with is his lack of emotion in much more serious situations. After all the near-deaths and kidnappings in his family, he still shows little reaction to anything. There's always a very little sense of peril or sorrow. When his mom became the Dark One, he barely flinched. The last time we ever saw genuine emotion from him was in 3x11.

 

Henry crying in 5x05 over Violet felt like a forced plot device to me. Does it hold up on its own? Yes, but besides hormones, his character has no basis for it. His feelings range from "Nothing, nothing, nothing... BAM!"

 

As a side note, I really don't care about Henlet. It reeks of pixie dust with that total change in the present from her father and the fact she only friendzoned him because of magic. The show seems to paint they're meant to be together with the evil Swan of Hearts standing in the way. YMMV, but to me even the show has accepted this fast relationship. I liked it better when it was just a mild crush in 5x01.

Edited November 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I agree Hook and Regina could have worked, and I kinda wish they had gone that route.  It would have been much more interesting and believable than the Robin Hood stuff.  Emma had way more potential for love interests anyway, whereas very few people would go for the Evil Queen after all she had done.  Plus, this would have freed up Emma from all the romantic stuff, since she had so many more feelings, new powers, and family relationships to deal with, which could have filled all of Season 3-4.  Season 5 could have been Emma finally opening herself to new romantic love for the first time instead of giving into the darkness or whatever they're trying to do with her right now.

 

Hook and Regina could have been a hysterical snark-fest but neither would have encouraged the other to be their best self. 

 

This would have been the tricky part.  Hook is the lesser villain, so he could want to give up the life of screwing others over (which was mainly focused on Rumple anyway).  He could make it a condition of the relationship for Regina to stop hurting innocents.  Maybe Hook could promise Neal that Emma, Henry, etc. will be taken care of.  Regina would still need to become a better person for Henry.  They could keep each other in line.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Camera One

[pezgirl7]

Hook and Regina could have worked for a hot second, but I see their relationship more as a sibling rivalry. I hope they never become friendly, like Hook and Belle have. I love their snark and that they barely tolerate each other. Right now, they are about the only two main characters left who can actually throw barbs at one another other while not being enemies.

[mjgchick]

If not Hook who could anyone see Emma with because I certainly wouldn't want her to end up with her fuckboy baby daddy that's for sure. I wonder how a Robin and Emma ship would be? He might actually have a point of view in the relationship.

I actually think Regina would've ruined Hooks character because of how the writers seems to write everyone when it comes to Regina. Remember when we all thought David was immune to her?

[october]

I think Hook and Regina have had some great interactions, but I put a lot of that down to the character of Hook and Colin as an actor. Colin has a reputation for being a generous performer and I think it shows. He manages to engage his scene partners, which helps make even the smallest interactions more entertaining. He made me give a damn about Robin Hood and made me excited to see them break into Emma's house together. Of course the show didn't follow through on that potential because TS;TW.

 

Romantically (please excuse me while I swallow back my own bile for a second) I think it would've had the same problems that Outlaw Queen has. Regina is like Hook's mirror opposite when it comes to her effect on others. The characters she's paired with tend to lose something in the process whether it be their backbones, moral fibre, guts, or several IQ points. I think the only thing that keeps Hook as an exception to that is that the two aren't even friends so he's able to maintain some distance from her and the writers, bless 'em, use what interactions they do have to bring some snark to the screen. As well as this show has been able to handle Hook, I think the writers love Regina more and he'd eventually fall victim to her bullshit in this scenario.

 

For anything else to actually work Regina would have to be written very differently to how she's written now, which would practically make her a different character anyway. This is the same thing I say about Swan Queen: 'yes could work, but only if Regina wasn't Regina because Regina is Regina and Regina is the worst.'

 

Plus, this would have freed up Emma from all the romantic stuff, since she had so many more feelings, new powers, and family relationships to deal with, which could have filled all of Season 3-4.  Season 5 could have been Emma finally opening herself to new romantic love for the first time instead of giving into the darkness or whatever they're trying to do with her right now.

I disagree because I don't think Captain Swan has been taking up time that could've been used on Emma's other relationships and storylines. I think Hook has been used to enhance these aspects of Emma's journey. He's encouraged her to reach out to her parents, he's been proactive bonding with Henry, he's someone she can talk to about Neal, and he's supported her use of magic. I think the problem is that the writers are bad at making the most of the time they have had to build these other relationships and at following through on the dilemmas and conflicts they've introduced.

Edited November 1, 2015 by october

[Serena]

I think Regina/Hook would have the same problems (or at least, similar) that Regina and Emma would have. Remember 403 or 404 (I don't remember exactly), when Emma was like "I think you're bitter, and you're taking it out on the wrong person?" and we all cheered? And then a couple of episodes later, in 405, she became Regina's punching bag and suddenly forgot how to give a witty retort? Hook would have had the same problem, because the problem with Robin/Regina isn't Robin. It's Regina's influence on all the characters around her who are supposed to "care" about her. Robin is an okay character when interacting with people not Regina, in storylines not influenced by her orbit of suck (his problem is that that almost never happens. Everyone was like "OMG, I actually enjoyed a Robin Hood scene?" when he had that exchange with Hook at Granny's... because for once, his scene wasn't about Regina).

Season 1 Henry didn't take any of Regina's shit. From season 2 onwards, he became her lapdog. Same for Snow. Thinking that Hook would have had a different fate, had he been paired up with her, is kidding yourself, IMO.

[YaddaYadda]

I think I'd have been curious about Hook/Regina as much as I was curious about Rumple/Cora.

 

What happens when 2 bad guys get together? I think that's my level of curiosity regarding this. I thought the Hook/Regina scenes back in season 2, plus the one scene they shared in season 3 were really good scenes. And they stopped having them interact altogether, which I never understood the reasoning behind.

 

Regina and Hook this season remind me of a brother and sister combo. They're still going through that phase of really disliking each other, but their have their moments of understanding.

 

Rumple and Cora, now I would've wanted to see that. 

[mjgchick]

Both Rumple and Cora were far to gone and would probably be a one dementional couple like Rita and Lord Zedd. lol

[Faemonic]

Thinking that Hook would have had a different fate, had he been paired up with her, is kidding yourself, IMO.

Remember when we all thought David was immune to her?

It's the What Ifs that always get me. :-P

[Camera One]

Hook would have had the same problem, because the problem with Robin/Regina isn't Robin.

 

While I agree that being in Regina's sphere could have "ruined" Hook given how the writers have everyone close to Regina eventually kowtowing to her, the problems with Robin Hood is a lot worse because Robin's character was not fully developed before being paired with Regina.  Hook at least got his own backstory and was his own character in Season 2.  There was no "preordained soulmate" baggage.  Robin, as a reasonably well-adjusted "good guy", doesn't have the go-to redemption plot that Hook would have gotten anyway, so by default, the writers were already less interested in Robin than they were in Hook.  In that way, the problems with Regina/Hook would not have been the same as we've been seeing with Regina/Robin.  

[Dianthus]

Ugh. Swan Queen. I can just hear Emma now:

"Dayum, Baby Girl, throw another fireball at my momma, cuz that shit makes ME hot!"

Barf.

[Shanna Marie]

I hate that trope as well, but I'm just not seeing it here. Henry categorically does not see Heroes as "Hot Bad Boys". He sees them as near saints.

I think the point was that "heroes" and "hot bad boys" fill a similar slot in the typical "Nice Guy" script -- "The only reason she could have rejected me is because women are only interested in <whatever women are supposed to be stereotypically into>." A lot of "Nice Guys" in our world would say "hot bad boys," but Henry said "heroes." And the "she wanted nothing to do with me" was obviously wrong because she showed up. She came to the diner in the middle of the woods after seeing his note and seemed to be having a good time until he pushed it far enough that it made her uncomfortable. The only thing she rejected was being more than friends. So, yeah, he's got the "romance or nothing" attitude while ascribing motives to her that she said nothing about. That's what made the whole scenario so uncomfortable.

[HoodlumSheep]

I love Rumple/Cora. I don't care what people say. They were evil, twisted soul mates.

[Dianthus]

They both had a lust for power and cared more about that than anything or anyone, so yeah. The ultimate Power Couple.

[Curio]

Can someone please explain to me the appeal of Rumbelle in its current form? Forget about all the Season 1 "Skin Deep" stuff. Just think about Season 4 and 5. How am I supposed to root for them as a couple? All I see is a desperate girl clinging to an abusive guy who can easily convince her he's "good" again just by crying or apologizing about how awful he was to her in the past. It's like whiplash watching Belle stand up for herself and walk away from Rumple (or try to jump out of a car) one minute, and then the next minute she's back to being his #1 Cheerleader.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Ok, are they even back together as a couple though?

 

She can still love him, she's most definitely allowed to if that's what she wants, but I didn't get the impression that they're back to couple status.

[Curio]

Ok, are they even back together as a couple though?

 

She can still love him, she's most definitely allowed to if that's what she wants, but I didn't get the impression that they're back to couple status.

They might not be an official couple right now, but they're clearly still close friends. And we all know how TS;TW works, so it's obvious they're being set up to be reunited as a power couple again at some point this season. But if I were in Belle's situation, I wouldn't even want to be friends with the guy.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

I guess I just don't understand what she's supposed to see in hm, any more, or why it's an interesting couple. I watched the Twitter feed for a while, because I was curious, and there were lots of "oh, the feels," but I just don't get it.

I found it creepy and twisted when she seemed to be staying with him before, and could at least conceptualize why people found them interesting, even if I didn't. But, they're just a mess. On repeat.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ it's too bad that it's a toxic relationship, because Robert and Emilie have great chemistry. Makes me sad. I wouldn't have minded Rumbelle as much if the events of Season 4 didn't happen. That was where I turned "meh" to anti- concerning their relationship.

Edited November 2, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Mari]

Huh. Perception definitely differs, then. :)

I see zero chemistry between them, and have found Rumple more compelling with Cora and Regina. Even with Zelena and Emma, in different ways. The only character I've found Belle interesting with was Ariel, but, well, that wasn't going to work out.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Mari

[Delphi]

I don't think their together together honestly. The scene where Belle encountered Merida after Belle wouldn't flee, Belle made it a point to note that Rumple wasn't her sweetheart. In any other situation, a person would announce, "He's my husband, not my sweetheart, and I'm not scared of you. " But she didn't. Sure, they'll probably end up together again, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Curio]

My point wasn't about whether or not Rumple and Belle are in a romantic relationship, it was that their friendship (or whatever you want to call it) is still pretty unhealthy at this point. In the same way Emma seems to lose 100 IQ points whenever she's forced to be "friends" with Regina, Belle loses IQ points whenever she has to stand up and defend Rumple. She's a much more interesting character to me when she's not forced to be the person woobie Rumple cries to all the time, so I really enjoyed the moments where she stood up for herself and ditched him at the car. But then in the exact same episode, she'll try and convince everyone that Dark Emma is just as bad as Dark Rumple, and she loses all her awesome points again.

[Rumsy4]

Belle gave me whiplash this episode. By the end, I was so done with her. 

 

Ok, are they even back together as a couple though?

 

Just before attempting to pull Excalibur out, Rumple apologized to Belle about messing up their relationship, and that he would not hurt her if he could have a do-over. Belle replied that Rumple he could still have that. I took it as a clear indication that she was taking him back. All Belle seems to even care about is Rumple apologizing to her. That's a pretty low bar for anyone. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Huh. Perception definitely differs, then. :)

I see zero chemistry between them, and have found Rumple more compelling with Cora and Regina. Even with Zelena and Emma, in different ways. The only character I've found Belle interesting with was Ariel, but, well, that wasn't going to work out.

I think the actors have chemistry. it's just everything else about the Rumbelle pairing that's terrible. In the end though, chemistry alone can't save the ship for me.

And yeah, Rumple/Cora are my ultimate evil power couple. The twisted nature of their relationship is what made it so darn compelling.

I thought Wicked Swan (or should I call it Wicked Dark Swan) was a fun dynamic.

[YaddaYadda]

At the end of the day, chemistry is subjective. Some people see it, others don't.

 

I think Belle deserves better than Rumple though.

[Joanh23]

From the start I was never a Rumbelle fan, but since S4 I really don’t like it.  It’s the same old story each season, Rumple admits he’s a coward and he’ll never change and Belle keeps saying  that she sees the man behind the beast (or in this ep the hero behind the coward).  I think the show does a good job of showing Belle’s brave/heroic side when she’s with other characters but as soon as she’s with Rumple I just lose interest. 

[Serena]

From the start I was never a Rumbelle fan, but since S4 I really don’t like it.  It’s the same old story each season, Rumple admits he’s a coward and he’ll never change and Belle keeps saying  that she sees the man behind the beast (or in this ep the hero behind the coward).  I think the show does a good job of showing Belle’s brave/heroic side when she’s with other characters but as soon as she’s with Rumple I just lose interest. 

It drives me crazy that "when she's with always characters" is always with random guest stars though. Anna, Merida, etc. Why couldn't she have gone on an adventure with Hook? How fun would that have been? Even with Regina, for god's sake.

[Mari]

it's just everything else about the Rumbelle pairing that's terrible. In the end though, chemistry alone can't save the ship for me.

I think, like some of the other things on this show, it could be incredibly compelling if the writers realized how screwed up it was. I think part of what makes it not work, narratively, is that the show presents it without ever acknowledging that Rumple is controlling and self-serving, and that Belle is a doormat who would drive a bus over people if that's what it took to get to Rumple or if it allowed her to tell herself it was a brave heroic act.

If it were presented as the slightly creepy it was, whenever they get back together without either one of them making significant attempts at changing their dynamic, instead of being presented as romantic or appropriate? It could be compelling.

But it would mean facing that the relationship they wrote is highly dysfunctional, and I don't think the show is willing to do that.

[mjgchick]

I Dont think I could get into Rumbelle because I didn't really like Belle and The Beast from BaTB. But on the show they managed to make them ten times worse. Oh and he has a history of spousal abuse you know when he killed his wife the mother of his child.

This shows BaTB should've been Red Beauty dammit.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But it would mean facing that the relationship they wrote is highly dysfunctional, and I don't think the show is willing to do that.

Can't taint those Disney princesses or ships, unfortunately.

[Mari]

Can't taint those Disney princesses or ships, unfortunately.

But, I look at this and think it is tainted. It's very tainted.

He is controlling, murdered his previous wife, puts Belle to sleep when he does not want to deal with her, and is not honest with her. She blames his victims, allows him to control her, and has been willing to ignore much of the evil he has done. The only things she's really taken any exception to has been when she felt less valued. She could not have cared less about other people.

Since they have already created and put five years into this incredibly creepy relationship, how would it taint Belle anymore to aknowledge it and treated that way in the story? It would at least be a healthier example for kids and teens watching how relationships should work, if it was obviously a relationship that was not healthy.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

But, I look at this and think it is tainted. It's very tainted.

Oh I agree. But they'll never admit it, which is why the dysfunctional relationship isn't entertaining. The couple is treated as a Disney OTP, and that can never change. I don't think the writers have to guts to deal with angry shippers either. 

 

I've said this before and I'll say it again - if Once owned up to all the psychologically messed up stuff, it would be a very awesome show.

Edited November 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

The couple is treated as a Disney OTP, and that can never change.

 

But I don't understand this. Emma & Hook's relationship is currently non-existent in the present timeline because they are showing that Dark Swan is not Emma and therefore, not the person he loves. I have no doubt that the show would maintain that Captain Swan is True Love and all that, but they were clear that Captain Dark Swan is not.  

 

So here we have Rumpelstiltskin & Belle and Belle fell in love with the Dark One. She even admitted to loving his dark parts (which I think was supposed to be sweet in having her say she loves his flaws, but it's really just super creepy given the Darkness inside him). Now that Rumpelstiltskin is not the Dark One, he is not the man she loved. I get that Disney's Belle was still in love with the Beast once he was no longer the beast, but that whole story was about the beauty within and so removing his external ugliness didn't change his personality/actions. In Storybrooke, this story is just the opposite. Externally, they look the same, but internally, Rumpelstiltskin and the Dark One are two very different people with different personalities. I'm not sure why I should assume that Belle and New!Rumpel would be still in love, when with Captain Swan, they are demonstrating that the differences in the person with/without the Darkness are significant enough to deny True Love. 

[Camera One]

They missed a huge opportunity in "The Bore and the Other Bore" to have Belle see and learn to love a whole new side of Rumple.  Heck, have Rumple not remember being the Dark One for awhile or something, so Belle could learn to love Original Recipe Rumple, if they want this to be an endgame couple  As you said, it kinda ruined it that they have done the opposite and made Belle constantly fall back into love with the psycho Dark Rumple these last three seasons.  If the breakup in Season 2 had stuck (heck, if the "Heroes and Villains" breakup had stuck and Belle had avoided Rumple like the plague since then), Belle could now be learning to love Original Rumple in Season 5 and the writers could build a viable relationship that we could perhaps root for.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Belle could now be learning to love Original Rumple in Season 5 and the writers could build a viable relationship that we could perhaps root for.

That's been a question in my mind for quite some time - whether or not Belle would love pre-Dark One Rumple. My answer was usually no because she was more attracted to the travel, power, and the task of redeeming him. In 5x06, she wasn't having any of the cowardice. In fact, she was put off more by that than many of his evil deeds in the past. Let that sink in.

 

Outlaw Queen has gotten the shaft this season, hasn't? We've barely seen them interact at all... not that I should be complaining. Besides Regina's whining in 5x02, I'm not sure if we've seen them speak to each other since. Correct me if I'm wrong. Nearly every conversation they have is angsty and about Zelena or the current problem. We don't see them enjoying each other's company or spending time with Roland. Relationships need happy moments to counteract the drama, otherwise it just doesn't work. There's been no effort put into OQ and it shows.

 

(I'm not really counting the AU stuff.)

Edited November 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

I watched a video on Tor.com a while back that showed Belle and her ex-Beast having some problems 'cuz he just wasn't beastly enough for her anymore.

[Curio]

Outlaw Queen has gotten the shaft this season, hasn't? We've barely seen them interact at all... not that I should be complaining.

 

They had a pretty strong first episode where Robin was taken as Zelena's hostage and Regina had to save him, and then 5x02 was huge on those two. But since then, they haven't really gotten any juicy material to work with. Which I'm totally okay with.

[KingOfHearts]

They had a pretty strong first episode where Robin was taken as Zelena's hostage and Regina had to save him, and then 5x02 was huge on those two. But since then, they haven't really gotten any juicy material to work with. Which I'm totally okay with.

All of that was PLOT PLOT PLOT. They weren't really interacting.

[october]

All of that was PLOT PLOT PLOT. They weren't really interacting.

 

I agree with that, especially 5x02. The show wasted an opportunity to have Regina teach Robin to dance and to introduce him to the world of royalty and pageantry. Even when they were dancing it just looked like Lana and Sean messing about. When Hook and Emma were dancing I saw Hook and Emma, not Jen and Colin. Outlaw Queen is terribly developed even when they're at the centre of an episode.

[Serena]

I agree with that, especially 5x02. The show wasted an opportunity to have Regina teach Robin to dance and to introduce him to the world of royalty and pageantry. Even when they were dancing it just looked like Lana and Sean messing about.

That's probably why that seemed to be the first and only time they had chemistry! Robin didn't look lifeless for once.

[KingOfHearts]

That's probably why that seemed to be the first and only time they had chemistry! Robin didn't look lifeless for once.

Don't mean to insult any shippers out there, but I see zero chemistry with him and Lana. His scenes with Hook or Will make him look much more like a human being. If I could describe Outlaw Queen, the words I'd choose would be "desperate" or "forced". They seem like two people who don't really have any other options, so they use the pixie dust to sate their needs.

 

There's really nothing bold or audacious about that couple. You'd think the Evil Queen dating Robin Hood would stand more provocative. Only this show would make such an out-there match-up so boring and bland.

Edited November 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Robin is so thinly drawn that there is nothing internal that he can deal with.  For a couple to have potential in the long-term in sustaining story, both characters need to be fully developed with organic places the character need to go.  The fact that Robin is a cardboard cut-out, and Regina's redemption is a done-deal provides little to no room for any natural storylines.  They would need to rely on the external roadblock, so the writers brought back Zelena, but that's kind of a dead-end.  If you contrast that with Emma/Hook, minus Dark Swan, there were still stories to tell, with Emma's hesitancy in letting down her walls and Hook's struggles with his regret over the things he has done.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

obin is so thinly drawn that there is nothing internal that he can deal with.

Which is unfortunate, since the writers have chosen that inner conflict is the only thing they can write for him. ("Do I follow honor, or my libido?") Hard to have angst when you don't have anything interesting to be angsty about.

Edited November 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[scenicbyway]

Don't mean to insult any shippers out there, but I see zero chemistry with him and Lana. His scenes with Hook or Will make him look much more like a human being. If I could describe Outlaw Queen, the words I'd choose would be "desperate" or "forced". They seem like two people who don't really have any other options, so they use the pixie dust to sate their needs.

There's really nothing bold or audacious about that couple. You'd think the Evil Queen dating Robin Hood would stand more provocative. Only this show would make such an out-there match-up so boring and bland.

The problem I have is that Robin and Marian were always meant to be and to think that Robin and the Evil Queen were always meant to be is odd. Add in the lack of chemistry, I do think Lana tries but there's a lack of maturity with Sean's Robin portrayal. Robin works as one of the guys, not so much as a romantic lead.

I agree with that, especially 5x02. The show wasted an opportunity to have Regina teach Robin to dance and to introduce him to the world of royalty and pageantry. Even when they were dancing it just looked like Lana and Sean messing about. When Hook and Emma were dancing I saw Hook and Emma, not Jen and Colin. Outlaw Queen is terribly developed even when they're at the centre of an episode.

Did they waste an opportunity? Instead of Regina being the queen she is at the ball she was parented by Snow and Charming because suddenly she didn't know how to dress or dance. Never mind that Charming didn't dance with his own daughter at their first ball together.

[Camera One]

I don't think Robin even works with the guys.  I didn't feel much chemistry between he and Neal, nor between he and Charming.  Robin and Will and Robin and Hook were slightly better, but not by much.

[mjgchick]

Their are moments where I like OQ like the dancing and them in the the flashbacks of 3B but I'd like for their to be a balance between the two. Regina just dominates them as a couple because he's just there to hold her hand. He's the rape victim and even though he's happy about having another baby he can't be happy about it because he feels guilty about Regina.

[Rumsy4]

Well... considering her own history, why would Regina care about rape-victims? She always plays the victim. Sooo messed up!