Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[mjgchick]

What? lol I feel like I'm the only person who thinks they have had sex during the 6 weeks if not then that Rose garden. The face Emma gave Hook when she said "We're alone now." and his eyebrow raise? Come on. lol

Edited October 22, 2015 by mjgchick

[YaddaYadda]

What? lol I feel like I'm the only person who thinks they have had sex during the 6 weeks if not then that Rose garden. The face Emma gave Hook when she said "We're alone now." and his eyebrow raise? Come on. lol

You're not. So if it's just the two of us, we'll keep each other company ;)

[orza]

I find it very hard to believe that the tumblr post was written by an actual lawyer, more likely an intern in a law firm. It reads like it was written by a college student.

 

Everyone has been having off-screen sex. That is what happens in adult relationships. Hook and Emma are no exception. It was pretty clear from their body language at the beginning of 4-12 that they were. It is beyond dumb when shippers project junior high school motives and behaviors onto adult characters.

[Rumsy4]

Oh, I think they banged in the 6 weeks before the QoD came to town. They were practically glued at their sides when walking Hook up to the Library. There's also that scene at the station when Hook brings Emma lunch. Hook is standing and Emma's face is practically level with his crotch. Then, Emma practically jumps him at the Loft when she sees he's still alive. There hasn't been that UST in 4B or 5A so far.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they made a big deal of one such moment while the gang is in Camelot. It's sort of leading up to that with all the romance build-up between the two of them.

[pezgirl7]

So my point was just that people were actually thinking about it, hence us talking about it here! I don't know if they've done it yet or not, and I hate when people are so matter of fact about it, one way or the other. Because no, we don't know that everyone is having off-screen sex. When Emma fell on Hook in the bed, and they looked very comfortable with Emma straddling him, that was really the first time I thought, ah ok, they probably have done it. My issue isn't with whether they've done it or not, I would just prefer some hint or mention to confirm it. Yea, it might be weird to care so much about the love life of two fictional characters, but I'm a fangirl and that's how my brain works.

[HoodlumSheep]

I think people are taking this way too seriously.

Snowing were banging before they got married

Were they? I never got the impression that they were. They were separated for what seems like half of their flashback story, so I don't know how or when they found the time?

Concerning CS, I'm in camp they-haven't-done-it-yet. Call me crazy, I don't care. It's not because I had to "see it" before I believe it, it's just this feeling I have. I think it's because of how season 4 played out. They seemed physically close, but based on the 4x05 scenes of Emma showing Hook her box of things, and the fact that she didn't have the guts to tell Hook she loved him until right before she got Dark Goo'd, makes me think she wasn't quite emotionally ready???

I don't know. It doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Edited October 22, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Were they? I never got the impression that they were. They were separated for what seems like half of their flashback story, so I don't know how or when they found the time?

 

Yeah...in 2x03, after Lancelot marries them and Snow goes to David to tell him how she can't have kids, the medal starts moving, and David thinks she might already be pregnant, and she replies, something like not right now, but someday.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ oh. I have a horrible memory.

[pezgirl7]

Yeah...in 2x03, after Lancelot marries them and Snow goes to David to tell him how she can't have kids, the medal starts moving, and David thinks she might already be pregnant, and she replies, something like not right now, but someday.

 

But couldn't Charming's reaction be that he was shocked because it meant Snow had been with another man? Although, I remember on their honeymoon when Charming was trying to take Snow's cape off, Snow was more interested in her little mission, which I can't even remember right now. If it was going to be their first time, I would have thought she'd been a little more attentive.

[YaddaYadda]

She wanted to go to the winter palace because of Medusa. Plus, the timeline for all of this, Maleficent told Snow she was pregnant like 2 days after Snowing came back from their honeymoon, and they'd had two weddings.

 

Yeah, the stuff I pay attention to.

[mjgchick]

 

They seemed physically close, but based on the 4x05 scenes of Emma showing Hook her box of things, and the fact that she didn't have the guts to tell Hook she loved him until right before she got Dark Goo'd, makes me think she wasn't quite emotionally ready???

But Emma's had one night stands. i don't think she'd be afraid of that as much as letting Hook in because he could easily hurt her. I guess I've always seen Emma as the type who have sex to get an itch scratch but letting someone in on her past would be the real hard part and admitting that she's ready to give him her heart.

[HoodlumSheep]

Actually, just watched the clip, Charming does seem shocked and says, "what? is there something you need to tell me?" In a manner which doesn't read as them having already done the deed. But I guess it's all up to how people want to interpret the scene. *shrugs*

Edited October 22, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Dianthus]

I'd like to have some kind of confirmation, rather than just making assumptions. They haven't really been an official couple all that long (given how quickly time passes on this show) and both of them had been having sex (with other people) devoid of emotional intimacy prior to that.

[Curio]

It would be nice to get a scene or two thrown our way where we're shown a relationship between any two people where the sex isn't about tricking the other partner into having a rape baby or having crypt sex with a man whose "wife" is technically still in the picture. I don't get why this show continually shows us the awkward (and usually non-consenting) sex lives of certain characters while completely ignoring the healthy offscreen sex that's most likely happening already with the other characters. It's such a weird message to send. If it was about the show being Disney-owned and "family friendly," then we shouldn't be seeing any sex scenes. But that's not the case—we're only being shown the questionable sexual relationships. Why not balance the tables once in a while?

[Shanna Marie]

Actually, just watched the clip, Charming does seem shocked and says, "what? is there something you need to tell me?" In a manner which doesn't read as them having already done the deed.

Yeah, that was my read, that his shock was because he thought that would have been physically impossible. I would suspect that after their initial marriage by Lancelot they may have started sleeping together even before the big, formal state wedding, and thus the instant pregnancy. Then again, Snow didn't even suspect she might be pregnant when they were on their way home from their honeymoon and that stupid tree rejected her as a hero because the zygote she didn't even know she was carrying had the potential to possibly be good or possibly be evil (you know, like every other baby, ever).

 

I rather like that it seems to be taking a while for Emma and Hook (if it hasn't been happening offscreen). I just read a book last night in which every single couple went straight from "hey, I think I might be in love with you" to bed, with no transition whatsoever, and it was so emotionally unsatisfying. It's nice to see the process of becoming a couple, especially considering that they started as enemies and then had a year gap.

[Mari]

But that's not the case—we're only being shown the questionable sexual relationships. Why not balance the tables once in a while?

Well, because this is the same production team that seems to think breasts=evil.  After all, we're probably the only fandom on the air right now who regularly discusses clevilage, and how Emma probably isn't actually evil because she's wearing turtleneck-like tops.

 

If we ever have evidence Snow's not feeding Nealflake with bottles, we should probably fear for his soul.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Mari

[ABitOFluff]

As someone who was a fan of a Moonlighting back in the day, there was a lot of "will they or won't they" around Dave and Maddy finally getting together. The entire series was based on their UST. Well, they did, and the series went downhill pretty quickly after that. I even remember the episode. The fans all went "SQUEE" and then, "eh".

 

So, I'm in the group that's pretty sure that CS has been intimate pretty regularly between 4a and 4b, because I like it like that. They're both worldly adults who have worked out their issues together. They've become more comfortable with each other, while remaining or even becoming more attractive to one another than ever before.

 

That said, or because of that, I wouldn't have minded the Camelot kiss to have gone a little farther.

Edited October 23, 2015 by ABitOFluff

[Shanna Marie]

To me, there's a big difference between a Moonlighting-style Will-They-Or-Won't-They relationship and the kind of slow build they're doing with Emma and Hook.

With the WTOWT relationship, it's usually mostly antagonistic -- the couple bickers and argues a lot, puts each other down or one ups each other, and meanwhile there's sexual tension because even though they don't really like each other, they want each other. Then eventually the wanting gets stronger than the hating, and they go from first kiss to bed (or in Moonlighting, rolling around on the floor like crazed weasels). That usually saps all the energy from the relationship because once the sexual tension is resolved, there isn't really anything left.

 

Sometimes they artificially prolong the wait to resolve the sexual tension by throwing in external obstacles to keep them from that first kiss (in Moonlighting, Mark Harmon). Robin and Regina come closer to this model, with their Missing Year bickering, going straight from first kiss to being in such a supposedly intense relationship that it's life-ruining when they're broken up two days later, and artificial roadblocks thrown against them, but without any of the real "Won't They" tension because it was all ordained by pixie dust. We never had any moment of agonizing if they'd ever just get it together and kiss, dammit!

 

But what they're doing with Emma and Hook (and a similar relationship might be Aeryn and John on Farscape) is more of a relationship continuum, developing each step along the way. Enemies->Reluctant Allies->Grudging Respect->Willing Allies->Developing Trust and Friendship->Realizing that There Might Be More Than Friendship->Showing Affection (physical and otherwise)->Realization of Love->Expression of Love->Sex.

 

With Emma and Hook, they were doing the enemies/reluctant allies/grudging respect in season two, which may have been the only time they really had much in the way of sexual tension (the beanstalk climb and the sword fight). They were willing allies developing trust and friendship throughout season three. They hit the being more than friends and showing affection at the end of season three. Season four was the affection phase, with the realization and expression of love coming at the end. That's mostly looking at it from Emma's perspective, as he was way ahead of her, but I don't even think there was that much sexual tension from his perspective because he was being patient and seemed to be enjoying each phase as it came along. Because there's not a lot of sexual tension, whether or not they've actually slept together at this point doesn't change all that much. Their arc is more about the emotional side of things, so for them the "I love you" was a bigger step than the first sex.

 

For them to have been closer to the Moonlighting kind of relationship, when he came down to the cabin on the way to Neverland, they'd have started kissing and gone straight to bed instead of drinking and talking and starting to get to know each other by having their little wake for Neal. Even by the time she grabbed him and kissed him after he saved David, they'd already built a pretty good base of friendship and trust.

[KingOfHearts]

Captain Swan is one of the few long-awaited relationships I've seen work as well as it does. In some TV shows, potential couples stay in the teasing territory for too long. So long that it begs the question of whether the writers even plan to follow through with it or not. Sometimes they don't. Captain Swan really only stayed there for part of 3A. After their kiss and the Going Home ending, it was basically solidified.

 

I've never been extremely invested in Hook or Emma, but I've always advocated their relationship.

[Serena]

I'm sorry, I just can't get over this.
Violet: Let's be friends.
Henry [crying]: She didn't want anything to do with me!

Just... what an awful, MRA, Nice Guy, friendzoning kind of view of relationships? 

Hook probably SHOULD be giving Henry tips about women. Clearly Neal's pick-up tips to 11 year old Henry had a bad effect. Maybe Henry could learn that when a girl says "I want to be friends, not date.", if you really care about her, you be her friend.

[mjgchick]

Instead of realizing how awful the writers made Henry look they didn't care because him in tears and making Emma rip that poor girls heart out to get on the villains level and to further drive a wedge between Swan Believer is all the writers cared for.

What sucks is you know they will never talk about it again after they hug it out. This show sucks on the relationship department.

[KingOfHearts]

Of all the things that's happened to Henry, Violet should be low on the list of what he should be crying about. He finally shows some strong emotion and it's... that.

[Rumsy4]

I'm sorry, I just can't get over this.

Violet: Let's be friends.

Henry [crying]: She didn't want anything to do with me!

Just... what an awful, MRA, Nice Guy, friendzoning kind of view of relationships? 

Hook probably SHOULD be giving Henry tips about women. Clearly Neal's pick-up tips to 11 year old Henry had a bad effect. Maybe Henry could learn that when a girl says "I want to be friends, not date.", if you really care about her, you be her friend.

 

It's not just that. But there's also the underlying assumption that there's no way Violet would have "friendzoned" Henry if not for Emma. See--Emma had to force Violet to reject Henry romantically. When she was not under Emma's control, as in Storybrooke, she kissed him. This is the typical entitled attitude some men have when they keep pestering women why they rejected them. I bet A&E have no idea of the implications. As it is, this seems too much like an authorial self-insert, what with Henry being belittled by Violet's father for being a writer, the movie choices on Henry's phone, and Henry "proving" himself a hero by restoring Violet's HE. :-p

 

However, I'm not going to blame Henry. He is a kid, and sadly, has no friends his own age to interact with. The adults in the situation should have taught him better. But, sadly, I don't think any of the adults are mature enough for that. His examples are Regina--who had a meltdown when Robin broke up with her in favor of "Marian". So, he may think dramatising rejection is a normal reaction (remember the semi-creepy break-up basket?). David and Snow would tell him to "keep hope alive" in love or whatever. Emma was manipulating him from the get go. Robin would have advised him to immediately g̶e̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶h̶o̶e̶ start dating someone else. Hook is the only one who might have advised him to continue to be friends with her and support her no matter what, but he is still rather too intense to be a balanced example of a romantic lover. That poor kid is bound to get messed up, no matter what!

Edited October 31, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Hook is the only one who might have advised him to continue to be friends with her and support her no matter what, but he is still rather too intense to be a balanced example of a romantic lover.

 

Except that Emma friendzoned him, until she decided she didn't want him as just that anymore.

[mjgchick]

I actually hate the term friendzoned because people make it seem like the worst thing to ever happen to you. Even if Violet actually likes Henry what if she is only willing to be his friend because you know he's from another entire world? That's what annoyed me about the situation. He was going to be heart broken either way right?

[kili]

I'm sorry, I just can't get over this.

Violet: Let's be friends.

Henry [crying]: She didn't want anything to do with me!

Just... what an awful, MRA, Nice Guy, friendzoning kind of view of relationships?

I'm not seeing the problem here. Henry really liked Violet and thought they were on a date and got told it wasn't going to happen. He's an immature 13 year old who has had a very strange childhood (none of the other children aged, so he likely did not get age appropriate cues) and his entire life has the kind of emotional swings that would be overwhelming for most adults.  I can see a cry of disappointment.

 

As a teenager, I remember my female friends crying when relationships did not work out. (so it isn't a guy thing to be sad about failed romance). I myself burst into tears once with only mild provocation because one of my parents was very ill and I was under a lot of stress (a person yelled at me in the elevator because they blamed me for it going up when they wanted it to go down - two very nice old ladies comforted me).  So, having somebody cry about a failed relationship while under a LOT of stress doesn't seem odd to me.

 

If Henry had reacted angrily and called her names and stuff, I would say that he was reacting inappropriately and acting like a Nice Guy. I don't see why crying about your first relationship problem with your Moms is so bad. 

 

Later, he had no memory of his past relationship with Violet and as far as he knew, it started at the jukebox in Storybrooke, so his pursuing again is not a mark against him. So, he wasn't being a Nice Guy ignoring her previous "friend" request.

Edited October 31, 2015 by kili

[Shanna Marie]

I can see Henry being all kinds of messed-up, considering his upbringing. But he's 13. Should dating even be a consideration? Is there that big a difference between dating and hanging out as friends at that age? If Emma was controlling Violet's heart, she didn't work very hard for the heart breakage because I thought Violet handled it rather gently and in a way that he could easily have saved face. It's not like she laughed at him or mocked him or said anything really hurtful. Henry's reaction wasn't quite one of those jerks who goes on a shooting rampage because a girl said no to him, but it was rather extreme considering what she said and did. She gave him the option of being friends, and he apparently decided that wasn't enough.

 

I've been in Violet's position, and it gets really uncomfortable when a guy acts that way. And I've been in Henry's position. I'd have loved it if the other person had handled it as well as she did.

[scarynikki12]

I'm not the original poster but what bothered me about Henry's reaction (beyond it being Henry-I hate this character!) wasn't that he was upset that she didn't like him the way he did her, but that he lied when he was telling Regina and Emma about it.  He told them that she wasn't interested (true) because he wasn't a hero (false).  It's certainly realistic for a 13 year old to make up reasons but, without any follow up, it comes across as the narrative supporting Henry's view.  He got to play the hero in Storybrooke and won the affections of the girl to drive it home.  What I think probably happened is that Henry just decided on his own that the only reason Violet wasn't into him was because he's not a hero, since that's his own greatest ambition, but we weren't given any textual evidence to support this. 

 

I think this is it for Henry's part of the 5A narrative but we may well see him talking trash about Violet in additional flashbacks, so he still has opportunities to drive home the Nice Guy.

[Camera One]

I agree that Henry drew his own conclusions, partly based on what Violet's father said.  He was making assumptions about why Violet rejected him.  (I don't agree on hating Henry though.  He's a kid and I do like him and hate that his character has been ruined).

 

 

 

But he's 13. Should dating even be a consideration? Is there that big a difference between dating and hanging out as friends at that age?

 

In this day and age, yes, from what I've seen first-hand.  Though not from his Storybrooke up-bringing.  The only way I can explain this is his memories from NYC.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

What I think probably happened is that Henry just decided on his own that the only reason Violet wasn't into him was because he's not a hero, since that's his own greatest ambition, but we weren't given any textual evidence to support this.

 

I hate Henry too, so I feel you. But in all fairness, when Violet rejected Henry's "romantic" gesture, he asked her if she had spoken to her father/if her father had spoken to her (whatever). So he had already put it in his head that this was the reason Violet wanted to be just his friend.

 

If he had found the horse in Camelot, he wouldn't have gotten half the reaction he did in Storybrooke. These people are in a strange land they know nothing about.

[mjgchick]

Both Henry and Belle seem obsessed with being heroes. Are we sure those two aren't related by blood? So is David in fact.

[Camera One]

The writers don't know what emotional conflicts to give to the "good guys" so they use the typical low-self-esteem-I-want-to-be-a-hero shtick with a bunch of them, while the other half gets the I-thought-I-was-good-but-I-betray-and-lie-and-I'm-actually-dark-inside crap.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Camera One

[Serena]

I'm not the original poster but what bothered me about Henry's reaction (beyond it being Henry-I hate this character!) wasn't that he was upset that she didn't like him the way he did her, but that he lied when he was telling Regina and Emma about it.  He told them that she wasn't interested (true) because he wasn't a hero (false). 

For me, it wasn't only because it was a flat out lie. It's also because it reminded me a lot of MRA rethoric. "Oh, that girl didn't like me because I'm just a Writer (Nerdy Nice Guy). She wants a Hero (Hot Bad Boy) instead!". Subtext being, she's shallow and doesn't know what's good for her. In this case, it was literally an Evil force that got the Nice Guy friendzoned!

 

I hate the trope of women rejecting a "good guy" because they want a Hero/Bad Boy/Insert Idealized Image (that women want because they can't see the Average Guy that's right in front of their eyes is the one they really should want!).

And I hate, hate, hate that Henry said "She didn't want anything to do with me.". It shows a rotten attitude, because she did want to be friends. And it's extra weird because they're 13, but you only need to add 3 or 4 years (and you know, the episode wasn't written by a 12 year old, but by grown men who, funnily enough, also happen to be "writers" and I bet they've been rejected a time or two) and it becomes "She won't put out, she just offered me her friendship. But that's worthless to me, aka she basically said she wants nothing to do with me."

 

I think Henry became A&E's self insert in this episode and they wrote a really ugly narrative for him. And it drives me crazy because they managed to completely avoid the "Nice Guy" pitfalls with Captain Swan, so they're capable of it. And the fact that Henry is 13 is irrelevant to me, because the story wasn't "Henry is acting like a little shit because he's 13".

[KAOS Agent]

I would have been hella uncomfortable as a 13 year old at the date that Henry set up. All alone with no one to provide distraction if needed. That was a bad setting for any first date. I guess there isn't really a place in Camelot to hang out with other people around, but most young teens I know go hang out at the mall or go to a movie or something. There's a lot of pressure in being alone and only having this other person that you've just met to interact with. It's just seems way too fast and serious for kids that age. It wouldn't be at all surprising for a girl that age to just want to slow down and be friends without all the nerves and scariness that goes with a teen romance. Shockingly, people aren't always ready  to jump into a romance no matter how much they may like their potential partner.

 

And yes, Henry's instant reasoning that it was all about him and how he wasn't a hero and somehow she wanted nothing to do with him didn't bode well for Henry's future relationship issues. Did he not listen to what she said? That he became a "hero" and got the girl in the end also sends a not good message. She rejected him in the past because she only wanted to be friends, but now he did something "heroic" and scored a kiss from the girl. He'll be a million times more interested in wanting to be a hero now.

[kili]

For me, it wasn't only because it was a flat out lie. It's also because it reminded me a lot of MRA rethoric. "Oh, that girl didn't like me because I'm just a Writer (Nerdy Nice Guy). She wants a Hero (Hot Bad Boy) instead!". Subtext being, she's shallow and doesn't know what's good for her.

I hate that trope as well, but I'm just not seeing it here. Henry categorically does not see Heroes as "Hot Bad Boys". He sees them as near saints. And he didn't get the idea that Violet might want a hero from himself - her Dad served up a heaping topping of that earlier. When one is lectured that being a writer might be nice in his world, but in this world, with its dangers, Violet needs a Hero, one might think, when one is new to the land, that the attitude is pervasive. And, Violet's dad just may be correct. If I suddenly found myself in cave man days, I think my abilities to google would be completely useless and my friend who can garden or hunt might be considered a more valuable mate. Our modern times allow us the luxury to be pretty much whatever we like, but there are times when things were much more pragmatic.

 

I don't even see Henry as lying. First, we don't know what else was said and second because of what her father said about their culture, it was a logical conclusion. Plus, he just watched his Grandpa become a knight of the round table and people are jabbering all around Camelot about heroes and quests and being noble - why wouldn't he think they are serious about that? Finally,  being overly-dramatic when one is sad and a teenager is pretty much what they do. 

 

I don't see this as A&E as inserting themselves into this episode because they made Henry a writer a year ago. If they had made him a writer this episode, I might buy it.

 

I would have been hella uncomfortable as a 13 year old at the date that Henry set up. All alone with no one to provide distraction if needed. That was a bad setting for any first date.

From one of the ariel shots, Grannies is now located in the middle of a rather large forest, far from Camelot castle making it even weirder.

Edited November 1, 2015 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

One of the things that bugged me was how seriously this whole thing was taken. Are Regina and Emma planning on staying in Camelot that they are encouraging the "relationship"? Why isn't anyone telling Henry that if he has a thing for her, it's fine, but to temper his "expectations" because he will be leaving Camelot, and since that realm is a twister away, as opposed to a train ride away, then this thing is doomed anyway.

[KAOS Agent]

Put that way, Henry is pretty screwed all the way around. He can't get a girl from the real world for obvious reasons and his home in Storybrooke is constantly under attack or being cursed and everyone is constantly being sent through portals and what not. Henry also seems to be the target of an awful lot of villains just based on his family connections. What parent in Storybrooke would want their daughter to hang around Henry given the danger around him?  Good luck with your relationships, Henry!

[Rumsy4]

I would have been hella uncomfortable as a 13 year old at the date that Henry set up. All alone with no one to provide distraction if needed. That was a bad setting for any first date.

 

Yeah--the "Date" was way too adult. Henry could have got picnic lunch for them out in the fields or gardens instead. I just feel uncomfortable about the fact that Henry never does any kids stuff. Other than that one year in New York with the missing memories, Henry's life is far from normal. He has no friends his own age in Storybrooke. He's way too involved in his mothers' love lives. He's already looking to start dating and stuff. And no one seems to care about his education. At this rate, he's not even going to finish high school! 

[Mari]

Ehh., in a few (or several) years, Tink can break out the fairy dust. If the family (not the girl) objects, Regina will heroically take their hearts and overcome their objections.

What's do you mean its gross and inappropriate? It's Regina, Tink, and Henry. Like they'd do anything ethically dodgy.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Good luck with your relationships, Henry!

 

I'm not sure that particular bloodline should make it past Henry anyway. No need to point out how harsh this is. I know exactly how I sound.

 

Henry should have friends before he has a girlfriend.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Henry should have friends before he has a girlfriend.

Whatever happened to Avery and all his other friends from New York?

Edited November 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

4A's Henry scenes should have been about missing his friends from NYC and then finally finding some friends in Storybrooke.  Regina's 4A scenes should have been earning Robin's trust, paying the price for what she did to Marion, and learning to feel actual remorse.  Cut all the "find the author" crap until 4B (I wish they could cut that from 4B too but that would be too much to ask for).

[YaddaYadda]

Whatever happened to Avery and all his other friends from New York?

They're in New York?

 

Besides, it's not like he can leave town because of some ice wall, a curse that turns people into trees. And it's not like they can come since you need a scroll to find the town to start with.

 

Imagine someone as paranoid as Leroy running through town bellowing like a lunatic "teenagers from the land of New York!"

[Mari]

Yeah, but with cellphones, Facetime, Skyping . . . . it's not actually that uncommon for kids to have close friends who live across the country.  Henry could've stayed in touch with them, and him being sulky about not being able to visit them would have been more interesting (or at least less torturous), as well as being more age appropriate and less creepy.

[Rumsy4]

Instead, he was making breakup baskets for his mom.

[Faemonic]

From the villains thread, I think, somebody posted a long "NOOOOOO!!!" at the idea that Hook was a popular character for the writers to do some shuffling around and pair him up with Regina instead of making Robin Hood a legitimately droolworthy dude on par with Hook (just humor me on this one point, Hook Haters...if any are still on this board.)

 

And you know what? I was actually on board with that, because I think the exchanges that Hook and Regina have had are actually good for each other. The moral philosophy! Hook's self-awareness! But Belle stopped calling Rumple out on his bad behavior, and when she finally got back on that again Rumbelle fans complained. So I suspect the writers might not let significant others do that anymore? And, another feature of the Author's Pet is that the world bends around them, including characterization. Hook can approach Regina with the promise to offer a personality dynamic, but I dread watching that gray out the same way it had with Belle.

 

I'm sorry, I just can't get over this.
Violet: Let's be friends.
Henry [crying]: She didn't want anything to do with me!

Just... what an awful, MRA, Nice Guy, friendzoning kind of view of relationships? 

Hook probably SHOULD be giving Henry tips about women. Clearly Neal's pick-up tips to 11 year old Henry had a bad effect. Maybe Henry could learn that when a girl says "I want to be friends, not date.", if you really care about her, you be her friend.

Bwah! If that's what really happened, I want a GIF of that scene change making the rounds in the same places where they make great arguments for Friendzone Not Being A Thing. Girls are not vending machines that you drop kindness coins into until TLK comes out, Henry!

 

I'm so glad that I'm not watching anymore. I make arguments for Hook being the genderswapped femme fatale like Saffron from Firefly rather than male fantasy projection screen rape culture poster boy, but I think things really went downhill in the gender role subversion department with Jonathan the Gardener. And Zelena the Reproductive Manipulator Because Wimmin Amirite. And now Henry.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Faemonic

[KAOS Agent]

 

Belle stopped calling Rumple out on his bad behavior, and when she finally got back on that again Rumbelle fans complained. So I suspect the writers might not let significant others do that anymore?

 

Hook is generally allowed to call Emma out when necessary and he flat out turned Dark Swan down when she offered him the Rumbelle life, so I don't think this is the case. Hook/Emma have always been pretty balanced in terms of who gets to screw up and get yelled at though, so maybe that plays into it.

 

That doesn't seem to be the case for other relationships though. If we look at Outlaw Queen, we've never seen Robin take Regina to task for anything. It's like she lives in this bubble where despite her questionable actions (planning to kill Marian, enslaving a man, stealing Belle's heart, planning to kill Zelena and Robin's unborn child), Robin is either not allowed to know about these things or somehow just doesn't care. Their relationship is just kind of there where Regina continues to do whatever she's always does and Robin doesn't seem to have any opinion on any of it.

Edited November 1, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[mjgchick]

I don't know if I agree with that. Hook, Emma, David and Snow all call each other out when they don't agree with things so maybe it depends on the fanbase. When Belle kicked Rumple out of Storybrook you'd think she killed him with how some of the fans acted but now it seems she'll be back to being the plot for villains to use against Rumple. I can't take that relationship seriously.

 

 

KAOS Agent thought of the same thing.

 

I feel sorry for anyone who is a Robin Hood big fan because he gets to do nothing when Regina acts up. He's even afraid to be happy for his new baby. He spends more time worrying about how Regina feels about it than his own son who one minute thought he had his mom back.

Edited November 1, 2015 by mjgchick

[Rumsy4]

I think things really went downhill in the gender role subversion department with Jonathan the Gardener. And Zelena the Reproductive Manipulator Because Wimmin Amirite. And now Henry.

 

Agree to a certain degree. To add to that list, we can see a big difference in the way the writers handled the adultery sub-plot wrt Mary Margaret/Abigail/David to that with Regina/Marian/Robin. In S1, the secret sleeping around and cheating was not shown as a good thing. But in S4, we had MM encouraging Regina in that. Abigail turned out to be pretty amazing both in Storybrooke and in the EF flashback. Poor Marian got projected first as bland and bitter, literally fridged, and later made into a villain in disguise. 

 

Also, I question the idea that being a writer was a bad thing in the EF. Sure--everyone would be wise to acquire basic fighting skills there, but I'm sure there were plenty of men and women who were needed to do other jobs than just be a knight and go on quests. Besides, Henry was just a boy. Henry calling himself a writer when we don't see him write anything was also weird. He skipped being a student and kid, and jumped straight into jobs and romance. The whole thing is a joke.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Dianthus]

Faemonic, on 31 Oct 2015 - 7:41 PM, said:

From the villains thread, I think, somebody posted a long "NOOOOOO!!!" at the idea that Hook was a popular character for the writers to do some shuffling around and pair him up with Regina instead of making Robin Hood a legitimately droolworthy dude on par with Hook (just humor me on this one point, Hook Haters...if any are still on this board.)

 

And you know what? I was actually on board with that, because I think the exchanges that Hook and Regina have had are actually good for each other. The moral philosophy! Hook's self-awareness! But Belle stopped calling Rumple out on his bad behavior, and when she finally got back on that again Rumbelle fans complained. So I suspect the writers might not let significant others do that anymore? And, another feature of the Author's Pet is that the world bends around them, including characterization. Hook can approach Regina with the promise to offer a personality dynamic, but I dread watching that gray out the same way it had with Belle.

 

Bwah! If that's what really happened, I want a GIF of that scene change making the rounds in the same places where they make great arguments for Friendzone Not Being A Thing. Girls are not vending machines that you drop kindness coins into until TLK comes out, Henry!

 

I'm so glad that I'm not watching anymore. I make arguments for Hook being the genderswapped femme fatale like Saffron from Firefly rather than male fantasy projection screen rape culture poster boy, but I think things really went downhill in the gender role subversion department with Jonathan the Gardener. And Zelena the Reproductive Manipulator Because Wimmin Amirite. And now Henry.

I could've shipped Captain Evil back in the day. It would've been fun to see them stumbling towards redemption together. That was back in s2, tho' before the whole Woegina thing really got rolling. On the whole, I'm super glad we got CS instead.