Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Souris]

I absolutely love this article about Emma and Hook's relationship and why they were written as true loves. It sums up perfectly what I love about their relationship and why I love Hook. Did I use the word love enough?

http://fangirlish.com/once-upon-a-time-true-love-the-captain-swan-way/

 

Oh, hell, yeah! That is perfect. I'm disseminating the hell out of that piece.

[Mari]

In my opinion, Regina has caused too much pain to Emma and her family to make that friendship believable, and the way it is written makes things worse. One of the things that bothers me the most is the fact that is the victim of the abuse the one seeking the friendship of her abuser while said abuser rejects her and belittles her. It's so unhealthy.

Yes.

And variations of it have happened with Regina and ....

Emma

Snow

Henry

Robin

NotMarian

Sidney

Any others of note?

[KingOfHearts]

I'd mention Rumpbelle. They're the classic abused/abuser story. If you thought Beauty and the Beast was Stockholm Syndrome, you obviously haven't seen Once. Belle is one his many victims, yet she still loves him relentlessly.

Edited July 31, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Genuine question: when was the last time the show actually spent some decent time developing this family's relationship with each other that didn't involve egg baby nonsense?

 

 

(It's crazy how much the show has changed since Season 1. I'd choke on my drink if I ever saw Snow and Charming on a cover of a major magazine at this point in the series.)

[Camera One]

Awww.  I almost want to tear up at all the lost potential.

[wingster55]

I did.

[mjgchick]

Damn what did these writers do to our show? They tore down Emma's relationship with her parents for what exactly?

[Mari]

"There's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story. That's just showbiz." —Edward Kitsis 

 

Also, they seem to think that heroes are boring, and the day to day moments are boring.

[YaddaYadda]

Also, they seem to think that heroes are boring, and the day to day moments are boring.

 

I disagree.  We have been treated to Regina's day to day moments.  I'm waiting for the episode about the chipped nail and her reaction to it.

 

All joking aside...

 

I was sort of wondering about something, the whole price of magic and how thus far, it seems that everyone pays for it through their children.

 

Snowing (thought that's sort of debatable) lost Emma and after they cast the curse to come back to Storybrooke, they nearly lost Snowflake.

Rumple lost Neal twice.  Once through the portal and then to death.

Regina's price for Pan's curse was the thing she loved most, Henry.

Maleficent lost Lily

Cora ultimately lost Regina (though I'm not sure she gave a whiff about it), 

Gerda gave birth to a daughter with the same powers as the sister she wanted everyone to forget about

Ashley signed a contract to give up her first born and almost lost her in the Price of Gold

 

So there seems to be a pattern here.

[Dianthus]

On the one hand you have the (potential) loss of a child. On the other, you have the loss of one (or both) parents. It's all about family, home, and belonging. The relationship between parent and child is, for most of us, foundational. Disrupt it, and you get some serious drama.  

[mjgchick]

Hopefully whatever goes on about Emma she doesn't lose Henry. I'm not his biggest fan but I'd be devastated on behalf of Emma especially since we'd see more of Regina's pain let's be real.

[kili]

I was sort of wondering about something, the whole price of magic and how thus far, it seems that everyone pays for it through their children.

 

I think its more like the former writers of Lost love their parental issues. Few of our characters make it to adulthood with both their parents:

Rumple - Mother mysteriously dead, father gave him up to reclaim his youth

Snowing - Mother murdered when she was like 10 and Father murdered when she was around 16

David - Father died in a drunk carting accident, Sibling sold as an infant (Mother slaughtered by his twin's adopted dad's soldiers - but he was an adult then)

Emma - Ripped from her parents for 28 years, bounced around foster homes, believed she was dumped at the side of the road

Belle - Mother eaten by an Ogre

Neal - Mother murdered by father, possessed father let him slip through another dimension, demented grandfather kept him a prisoner on an island for 200 years

Henry - Father died, but two living Moms

Gepetto - Parents turned into puppets

Pinocchio - Sent to another realm to live in Foster care by his adopted dad, no parents

Hook - Mother died, brother died, Father ran off

Leroy - no parents, no love, just started working the day he was born

Ruby - Raised without her parents (who were believed to be dead until she found out and had to kill her own Mom)

Victor Whale - Mom dead and a really, really creepy Dad

Jiminy Cricket - Tried to kill both of his parents, but they are still alive

Cruella - Killed Mom and probably killed her dad and several step-dads

Ursula - Dead Mom and feuding with Dad

Roland - Mom murdered in every time-line imaginable by the Mill's women, Father more concerned about his new squeeze

Zelena - dumped on the side of the road, adopted Mom dead, adopted Dad a douche, bio-Mom dead, real Dad a super-douche

Elsa and Anna - both parents lost at sea

Hansel and Gretel - Mom dead and father

Grace - Mother killed, Father kidnapped to Wonderland

Lily - Adopted, mother a dragon, father unknown

 

Ingrid did keep both her parents, but ended up killing one sister and being urned by another.

 

Of course, the original fairy tales were a little tough on the old parents too.

[Mari]

I think the way Regina is handling this is in a very mature way. It is an unfortunate circumstance and you [Robin Hood] manipulated into this, you didn't know who she really was, you thought you were with your wife, you thought it was the end between us, and there was no return. I get that you were making efforts and trying to move forward, however you moved forward with the wicked witch — unbeknownst to you — and now we are in this situation. I think what we saw in those last episodes is Regina saying, "We are going to have this baby but you are going to be under watch." Robin is going to have the relationship with the baby, but you are on parole for the rest of your life.

http://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Interview-Lana-Parrilla-About-Once-Upon-Time-Season-5-38010423?utm_source=buzzsugar&utm_medium=twitter

 

This is a quote from Lana Parilla--I've included the link, but it does get a little spoilery.

 

This is an interesting double standard that Regina is holding Robin to.  He jumped into sex with Regina only days after recommitting to Marian.   While I completely believe that Robin was basically raped, at the same time, if I were Regina, I wouldn't trust him completely, either.  He's too fickle.  I do believe, however, that having that different standard for her encounter with him than his with NotMarian is completely in-character for her.  

 

But  they are soulmates, and likely true loves.  How does that work without trust?  If I trusted the show to deal with complex emotions, this would be a very interesting plotline, simply because what do you do when you find your true love untrustworthy, and expect to do so for the rest of your life?  If you can't trust your partner to be true, how is that True Love?  

 

And what other interpretation than ongoing mistrust is there for "parole"?  Are there other interpretations?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

But, since they are soulmates, and likely true loves.  How does that work without trust?  If I trusted the show more, this would be a very interesting plotline, simply because what do you do when you find your true love untrustworthy, and expect to do so for the rest of your life?

 

I think it would be kind of cool if at the end of the day things just didn't work out for them even though they are (pixie dust) ordained soulmates.  The issues they have are REAL life issues, not fairytale issues.  

 

I think it's completely fair that Robin wanted to make it work with Marian.  He loved her once, he shares a child with her, he went to great lengths to try and save her life, he was (according to him) devastated when he thought she died.  Wanting to make a go of things in a land that you don't know or barely understand is okay.

 

It's everything else that's the problem.  

 

I think I would be a lot more on board with OQ if I saw them struggle with what happened, struggle to salvage what they have (for the two weeks they've been together), see Regina put her money where her mouth is that her happiness is not defined by a man and that Robin is just part of a whole for her and that yes, she can be angry and even miserable if they broke up again, but that she has a lot of other good things in her life.

 

Would also be nice of Robin got a personality transplant.  If he's gonna be on my screen practically full time, then a personality would go a long way.

[Camera One]

So. hard. not. to. click. on. spoiler. link.  I summon within me the self-discipline expected by the Blue Fairy.

 

I think  it was understandable for Robin to start over with Marion given the circumstances we viewers were given in the 4A finale.  They made it seem like Marion and Robin going out into the World Without Magic was going to be completely permanent.  They would never be able to come back, and they won't be able to communicate.  New world, new life, forever.

 

But then they completely changed the parameters in the 4B premiere and thereafter, with Robin having everyone in Storybrooke on speed dial, Belle and Rumple doing half-blind emails, and oh yeah, light bulb moment, the Snow Queen's scroll can get anyone in and out of Storybrooke!!!   If this was actually the situation, then there was an option. Robin could have helped Marion get settled, and then he could come back to Regina.  This changed situation is what made Robin seem fickle.  

 

Why did Robin and Marion have to live in NYC?  Why would Regina give Robin the keys to Neal's apartment?  How did Rumple know Cruella and Ursula could enter Storybrooke without knowing Emma's light-bulb idea about the Snow Queen's scroll?  Everything is just so dumb I can't even take any of it seriously.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I would have been fine with Robin choosing Marian. I would have been fine with Robin choosing Regina. I just wanted him to choose someone. My issue with the Love Triangle of Doom was the fact Robin was flip-flopping and could not pick a side. It got so bad he was having crypt sex in the same place as his frozen wife lying in a coma. It was, believe it or not, even worse than David/MM. I can understand if he still loved Marian or if he had moved on with Regina, but he was a jerk for not picking a side and egging both women on. (mostly Regina.)

 

The whole Zarian reveal doesn't change how I feel about it at all.

Edited August 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Even worse was his constant mentions of his code and his honor and then Robin consistently throwing them out the window. I think it was supposed to show conflict for the character or something, but he has zero personality, so it didn't really work. Why didn't he care that Regina had murdered Marian? Why didn't he even try to fall in love with Marian again after being told that was the only way she'd wake up from the Frozen curse? He was so into sex with his week old girlfriend that he didn't care that his wife and mother of his son would die because of it. What really got to me was him inviting Regina back to his camp for breakfast after the crypt sex. That would be the same camp where his young son was. By all means, flaunt your affair with another woman while your wife lies dying somewhere. Nice example to set Mr, I Have a Code. He wasn't even remotely ashamed of his actions.

 

If I were Regina, I'd have serious doubts about any kind of relationship with a guy like that. Who knows what will happen in the future for them? What happens if Regina gets cursed and Robin is distracted by another hot ass and leaves Regina to rot? Run away, Regina!

[Camera One]

Even worse was his constant mentions of his code and his honor and then Robin consistently throwing them out the window.

 

It's typical with this show's writing, where they think if you say something enough, it becomes true. I mean, look at all those speeches they had Rumple giving to Sleeping Belle.  As a viewer, it's hard to care what these characters are saying.  If the character does nothing that backs up what they're saying, then the words might as well be blah blah blah.

 

Nothing about the fallout of Zarion was believable.  Why didn't they allow Robin to express some anger at Zelena?  He should be yelling at her at the very least.  Instead, A&E wrote drivel like the following from the FIRST conversation Robin and Regina had after finding the truth.

 

REGINA: So you moved on.  With her.

ROBIN: That's not fair.

 

After finding out what Zelena did, this is what Regina says to Robin?  Really?

 

 

 

REGINA: For her, this was all about Making sure I never get my happy ending.

ROBIN: If by happy ending, you mean us, then At least, in a way, that's possible again.

 

This should not be in the first 5 minutes of the episode following Robin finding out Zelena killed his wife, impersonated her and got herself pregnant.  No matter what one feels about Outlaw Queen, it's just really bad pacing and really bad writing to have Robin even contemplate rekindling his relationship.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

That conversation also included Regina saying that it was all about her and that she should have known that life wouldn't kick her in the teeth again. Robin just found out his wife had been murdered (again) and that he'd been raped and his rapist is carrying his child, but the conversation is about how Regina feels. Can you imagine how that would have played if the genders were flipped? Part of the problem with the way this whole thing went down is that this occurred in a Regina-centric episode, so Regina's current thoughts needed to be verbalized to tie into her flashbacks. That it makes Regina & Robin look bad doesn't matter because they needed to convey this stuff immediately to understand the backstory we were being told. These thoughts would have been better verbalized to Emma with a later conversation between Robin & Regina discussing their relationship in a way that puts them in a better light.

[YaddaYadda]

He was so into sex with his week old girlfriend

 

I know what you mean, but this line is so, so, very wrong! 

 

I don't know how invested the writers are in OQ and at this point. I don't think they are. I think OQ is designed to keep Regina miserable, because the show loves miserable and bitter Regina and because a miserable Regina behaves very stupidly. This is after all how we got Operation Mongoose.

 

They took the easy way out with the pixie dust.  If it's pixie dust, then it must be true.  They could have had them fall in love during the missing year which would have made everything more complicated, but Robin being torn might've made more sense.

 

So Robin and Regina are sitting by her fire place, having wine and Robin is telling Regina about how there isn't a thing he wouldn't have done for Marian because he loved her that much.  Right after, Regina pulls up Robin's sleeve and tells him that Tink told her about Robin a long time ago and that she had gone to the tavern but chickened out, but she had seen his tattoo and knew that it was him who was her soulmate.  Then Robin gets all, oh why didn't you come in, blah blah blah...

 

This is when things shifted, I think.  If the fairy told Regina to follow the pixie dust to her soulmate and it was him sitting there, then he could have been with his soulmate all along.  Because of the dust said they were soulmates, then it must be true and he wasted his life with a woman he was not meant to be with after all.

 

At least that's the way I look at it, that the pixie dust skewed everything.

 

And Robin has no room for outrage at what Zelena did to Marian since Marian died in the original timeline at Bold and Audacious' hands.  If Robin decides to be pissed that Zelena killed Marian, then he should be equally pissed that Regina was going to do the honors first had Emma not released her from her cell. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

This should not be in the first 5 minutes of the episode following Robin finding out Zelena killed his wife, impersonated her and got herself pregnant.  No matter what one feels about Outlaw Queen, it's just really bad pacing and really bad writing to have Robin even contemplate rekindling his relationship.

This bothered me too. This was obviously a moment for strong angst for them. There's Roland, Zelena and a baby, yet Robin's biggest concern is getting back together with Regina. It shows you how little he really cared about Marian. The minute she's gone he says "screw it" and gets back together with his girlfriend. Was that really on his mind? What's wrong with this relationship is clearly portrayed here. It's about Regina having a love interest, nothing more.

 

Regina's line about "it's all about me" is more of the writing's fault than the character's, imo. She was dead right that it had nothing to do with Robin or his family. Zelena's pregnancy is about revenge on her, plain and simple. It was never nor ever will be about rape or other characters.

[pezgirl7]

A fan made some pie charts of what Hook and Emma have referred to each other as, when speaking to one another. I love when people do things like this!

http://hooksandyellowbugs.tumblr.com/post/125958785477/so-this-is-an-updated-version-of-the-chart-i

The takeaway is that Hook really loves Emma. :) How many women get to have a guy call them Love, My Dear, Lass, Darling, Beautiful, Savior, My Lady, and Your Highness?

[Dianthus]

"Tiger" is my personal favorite, too, tho' "Hot Stuff" would also be acceptable.

[pezgirl7]

But what I like about Hook's names for Emma is that they're so old fashioned and sincere. No babe, or honey or sweetie. I just have a thing for period men and chivalrous attitudes. Perhaps with a touch of naughtiness. ;)

[Dianthus]

Oh, I like Hook's endearments too. Reminds me of Spike (yeah, I know). He used to call Buffy "love" all the time in later seasons, or by her last name ("I'm drownin' in you, Summers"). In a way, he was more like Emma tho', with nicknames for everyone (Little Bit, Red, Special Ed, Demon Girl, etc.).

[Panopticon]

So Swan is still in the majority for Hook. I thought that it might not be anymore since he started to use endearments more heavily as their relationship developed. That trend isn't as distinct as Emma switching from mostly Hook to mostly Killian but it's noticeable.

I wonder how much decline there has been in Hook calling other women "love" since he's been using it more for the woman he actually does love.

[mjgchick]

I notice that Emma calls Hook mostly Hook in front of everyone else and Killian on their own. The only time she even called him Killian in front of everyone was when he looked pensive after Ursula told him Rumples flop plan to turn her dark. David also seems to call Mary Margarete Snow when she's about to do something stupid. lol Emma still calls Henry kid. Regina still calls Emma Miss. Swan but the writers did troll us by having her call Emma Swan a few times. Made me cringe tbh.

Edited August 7, 2015 by mjgchick

[Shanna Marie]

After rewatching "Operation Mongoose," I have to say that the AU made Robin and Regina in the real world make so much sense in comparison. At least they'd known each other for a year (though they didn't like each other much) and had gone out/had makeout sessions a couple of times before his wife returning ruined Regina's life. In the AU, she'd met him once and had one brief conversation with him before she was expected to interrupt his wedding on the grounds of being his true love. Granted, Emma and Henry were encouraging that mostly because of the clue about the tolling bells, and the way to keep that from happening was stop the wedding, but then again, couldn't Emma or Henry have popped in with an "I object!" and stopped the wedding to buy time? Or was it really all about them being true loves, even though in that world they'd met once?

 

I really hate that interrupting the wedding to express your feelings trope that's so common in romantic comedies, and putting it in a fairy tale setting doesn't help. If you haven't said anything before now, shut up, and if you just met, then how can you know enough to interrupt? I'd be a little creeped out by someone who could make it to the altar with someone and change his mind just because I piped up.

 

On a related note, this is why I'm not in favor of Aurora and Mulan. Philip was Mulan's friend even before she met Aurora. It would have been a total jerk move on her part to make a play for his wife. I don't care how she feels (and contrary to Hollywood opinion, not every feeling has to be expressed). Friends don't do that. I'm lenient on the dating friends' exes issue, but I have to take a hard line on going after the person your friend is currently involved with. Aurora and Philip were both cursed right before their wedding, and their feelings for each other were apparently strong enough for them to get back together again after they were both uncursed and unwraithed (#ItHappenedOffscreen). If Aurora had shown doubts about Philip or if she'd broken up with him, then maybe Mulan could have expressed her feelings. But as Philip's friend, while Aurora's with him, Mulan needs to keep her mouth shut. Yeah, it sucks and is painful to see someone you care about with someone else (made a quilt out of the t-shirts), but you deal with it rather than betray your friend.

[YaddaYadda]

On a related note, this is why I'm not in favor of Aurora and Mulan. Philip was Mulan's friend even before she met Aurora. It would have been a total jerk move on her part to make a play for his wife.

 

True, it would have been a jerk move.  Mulan has been loyal to both Philip and Aurora to a fault and yes, we all assumed that whatever she was going to say had to do with her feelings for Aurora.  In some way, I'm glad that whole situation has been left so up in the air.  And even then, the moment she found out that Aurora was pregnant, she completely back off.  

 

Mulan is a character I wouldn't mind seeing again just to know what happened to her.  

[Camera One]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the point of that was.  It would have been a horrible thing to do to Philip regardless.  I don't know of many writers who would write something like that and then drop it, knowing full well that there were no plans to bring back Mulan for the foreseeable future.  Why... just why.

 

Mulan is a character I wouldn't mind seeing again just to know what happened to her.

 

Don't worry, I think Adam and Eddy would be really disappointed if we never saw Mulan again.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the point of that was.  It would have been a horrible thing to do to Philip regardless.  I don't know of many writers who would write something like that and then drop it, knowing full well that there were no plans to bring back Mulan for the foreseeable future.

I suspect it was fangirl pandering. When we first saw Mulan with Philip, it seemed that she was in love with him, and she loved him enough to help him find and save his love, even though it was painful for her (the old Eponine/Marius/Cosette situation from Les Miserables). She was initially snippy with Aurora, like she had seriously mixed feelings -- she felt bound to protect her out of loyalty to/love for Philip, but there was a part of her deep down inside that seemed to think maybe Aurora wasn't worthy of Philip and she (Mulan) would be a better fit. But then there was all the stuff during Team Princess that read as subtext that got fans all excited, and it got pretty overt with the heart returning. So the next time we saw that trio, Mulan had gone from being in love with Philip to being in love with Aurora. And then we got the Standard Hollywood Message that no feeling must be unexpressed (which might explain the divorce rate there), and if you love someone, you absolutely have to tell them, no matter who it would hurt, no matter what kind of relationship they're in. I'm not sure what she hoped the outcome would be, whether or not Aurora was pregnant. Did she expect Aurora to ditch her husband? Would she want someone who'd ditch her husband like that? It would have been very different if when Aurora was reunited with Philip for more than five minutes they'd been awkward and realized they'd grown apart or Aurora started realizing her feelings had moved in a different direction, but I just can't get behind anyone ever telling a member of a couple that they're in love with them, especially when the would-be romantic rival is a friend (I hate that particular storyline in Love Actually, as well). Yay to Mulan for not actually going through with saying it, but it shouldn't have just been a pregnancy making her keep that to herself. And if it was just going to be talking about what Aurora meant to her as a friend, the pregnancy news shouldn't have stopped her from saying it and she wouldn't have gone off to join the Merry Men so she didn't have to be around Aurora and Philip anymore.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm not sure why Aurora's pregnancy kept Mulan from sharing her feelings. She knew Aurora & Phillip shared True Love from the very moment she first met Aurora. So it was okay to say I love you to Aurora in hopes Aurora would leave Phillip because she shared that feeling back, but with a baby involved there's no point because while it's okay to hurt Phillip, it's not okay to mess up a family? If Aurora felt strongly enough about Mulan to leave Phillip, how happy can she be in her marriage? Or is it because somehow baby = True Love w/ Phillip (which we already knew) = Mulan rejection?

 

I don't think the Love Actually couple works as a parallel for Mulan/Aurora. He tried hard to pretend things were fine, but she noticed and thought he hated her and that was causing problems with his friendship with the husband. He tried to cover it up, not tell her. Once the wedding video was out, he was stuck because she knew. Then he admitted he loved her and walked away saying, "Enough." He was done with the whole thing. The kiss was inappropriate (but that was on her), but his actions were understandable in the way it signified an end for him. Yes, he loves her, which she knows, and now he's going to try to move forward. It should at least have made it less awkward since she knew he wasn't going to be pining away for her. If Mulan had done the same, saying she loved Aurora, but knows she's happy with Phillip and thus is moving on and away from the pain, Aurora would know & understand why Mulan left or why things were suddenly awkward with Mulan. However, unlike Love Actually, Aurora didn't have a clue about Mulan's feelings, so there was no need for her to express them unless she really did want to break up her friends' marriage or just make things insanely uncomfortable all around.

Edited August 13, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Was it established that Aurora and Philip married?  Or were all three of them friends and Mulan wasn't sure where she stood?  Maybe Mulan thought that Aurora too was conflicted and torn, and the pregnancy confirmed that Aurora and committed to Philip?   I feel like I'm grasping at straws here, LOL.  I really can't fathom what the writers thought they were writing.

[Shanna Marie]

Was it established that Aurora and Philip married?

I don't know. I have a vague impression of the word "husband" or "wife" being used in 3B with Zelena, but I could be making up stories in my head. That's where #ItHappenedOffscreen makes things difficult. We had to connect the (invisible ink) dots between Cora gloating to Aurora about how someone could be saved from a wraith and seeing Philip be perfectly fine, so we have no way of knowing what developed between Aurora and Mulan on the way to saving Philip, how Aurora and Philip were upon being finally reunited, if they finally got to go through with their wedding that was interrupted by Maleficent's curses, etc. Obviously, Aurora and Philip were sleeping together, given the pregnancy, and Mulan would have had to be pretty dense to be around them and not realize that they were a serious item, especially given the magical proof of true love, since Philip's kiss broke Aurora's sleeping curse.

 

Good points about Love Actually (though that's still not my favorite thread in the movie) -- he told her to make her feel better, and it was possibly less awkward for all of them as friends if she knew he was awkward around her because he was attracted to her and felt guilty about it than if she mistakenly thought he hated her. There didn't seem to be much awkwardness among Philip, Aurora and Mulan, so no reason for Mulan to even consider doing what essentially amounted to trying to break Philip and Aurora up.

 

Random thought: Aurora seemed to be closer to being a contemporary to Regina than to Snow (or maybe in between) but was apparently frozen by the sleeping curse, while Philip was frozen first by the dragon beast (I'm not going to attempt to spell it) curse and then by being in the CoraDome. In the fairy tale and Disney movie, Aurora's whole castle (and in some of the stories, the whole kingdom) was put to sleep, as well, so her parents didn't age however many years while she slept. Did the same sort of thing happen in this story? Where are Aurora's and Philip's parents? Are she and Philip now suddenly alone in this strange other world and away from their families? But I guess there wasn't time for this while we had to feel sad for Maleficent.

[Camera One]

Replying in Unanswered Questions.

[KAOS Agent]

There's another example of someone inappropriately telling someone they love them on Once. Robin tells Regina he loves her (watch her face light with joy) and immediately turns around and says he's going back to his wife. Why would you hurt Regina that way? That's a case of where you keep your mouth shut because sharing is only going to hurt the other person. Then again, it's Robin, so nothing should surprise me about his idiocy. The other issue with sharing in that particular case is that it says to Regina that if the Marian roadblock is out of the way, it's clear sailing. This isn't an idea you should give to a sociopathic murderer.

[kingshearte]

But she's not a sociopathic murderer; she's just misunderstood.

[Faemonic]

there was all the stuff during Team Princess that read as subtext that got fans all excited, and it got pretty overt with the heart returning. So the next time we saw that trio, Mulan had gone from being in love with Philip to being in love with Aurora

It's so difficult to discuss characterization or relationships when These Writers are obviously going, "Dance, my puppets, dance!! Muahahahaa~!"

 

Sleeping Warrior was one of the more glaring cases of this, yes.

 

Personally, I've had it up ta here with polyamory-proof love triangles, so if the thing would have been totes okay by Philip then it would have been slightly more okay by me. Mostly I hate both sides of the reaction of viewers/fandoms on it what with "this is on a Family Network so keep your homosexuals out of real human families" over there and "sooo groundbreaking totally called it" over here because basically nothing happened. Also I hate that Mulan as basically the show's twofer, but considering Mulan's Disney backstory and how her characterization is a cardboard cutout in a show full of cardboard cutouts it has so many more other problems about butch stereotyping and she's always ceding the field of her own expertise to white people and only sassing them when they're white men oh so of course she's also lesbian. It's like queer women of colour don't get happy endings, only villains are allowed a season-long epic arc to make a grab for it and argh argh aaaarrgh...

 

But back to the in-universe relationships of people as in personalities with temperaments and motivations and bonds... I guess that is there a little bit. But it's mostly Argh.

 

This show doesn't write relationships well, regardless of romantic orientation or romantic at all. My One True Pairing on this show has gone from "ooh" to "meh" with the very rare "d'aww." Even familiar relationships are getting crickets.

[Souris]

I was pondering the angst that's sure to come for CS this season. Can you imagine how angsty shipping Snowing would've been in real time vs. in flashbacks? Snow told Charming she didn't love him and broke up with him to save his life, she took a potion to forget him, after she remembered him and they kissed, he was immediately abducted and stuck in jail, then she was under a sleeping curse, George made her infertile.... Sheesh.

[mjgchick]

S1 was brutal as a Snowing shipper. CS will probably be worse because it's more than just a few villains coming between them. Some magical thingy just sucked half of them to god knows where.

[Curio]

Can you imagine how angsty shipping Snowing would've been in real time vs. in flashbacks? Snow told Charming she didn't love him and broke up with him to save his life, she took a potion to forget him, after she remembered him and they kissed, he was immediately abducted and stuck in jail, then she was under a sleeping curse, George made her infertile.... Sheesh.

 

I loved Snow and Charming in Season 1 (I still do...but just not as much as I used to. It's hard to get fangirl-y for characters who've been officially shoved off into secondary supporting roles, and/or retconned at every corner, and/or turned into Regina cheerleaders.) but the angst wasn't bad because you knew as an audience member that things would turn out okay for them in the end because they were flashbacks and because it was made clear that their True Love™ status would reunite them in Storybrooke. That's why it'll be interesting seeing how Hook and Emma, Belle and Rumple, and Robin and Regina's relationships are written moving forward because they're all in real time, and I have a feeling the writers aren't afraid to revoke some of their True Love™ statuses.

[Souris]

That's what I mean. I loved Snowing and rooted for them but it wasn't angsty for me in S1 because it was flashbacks and we saw their marriage in the first ep. But if it hadn't been flashbacks and we'd been going through their romance as it happened -- whoo boy, the angst and separation!

 

I know whose True Love statuses I think should be revoked....

Edited August 20, 2015 by Souris

[Camera One]

S1 was brutal as a Snowing shipper.

 

I thought so too.  I wanted Snow and Charming to remember each other in the present-day, but it was sullied by the fact that it would involve adultery which made it difficult to truly enjoy any time Mary Margaret and David had together.  The whole cheating thing seemed to show they did not have the internal moral fiber to resist.  You wanted to root for the heroes, but the whole setup made it incredibly icky and simply not romantic.  And then to have David sleeping with Kathryn and MM with Dr. Whale, even from Season 1, the mission was to start to tarnish them.  

 

They could have shown and explicitly stated Emma slept with Walsh since Emma did have amnesia but the writers chose not to spell that out.  So they haven't been actively tarnishing CS, despite the cursed lips/blackmail stuff in 3B and 4B.  

Edited August 20, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

During season 1, I rooted for Snowing in the past, not in the present.  I knew they would come together in the present, but I hated the Kathryn angle.  I felt sorry for Kathryn and I wanted better for her.

 

They could have shown and explicitly stated Emma slept with Walsh since Emma did have amnesia but they didn't.  So they haven't been actively tarnishing CS, despite the cursed lips/blackmail stuff in 3B and 4B.

And they could've shown Hook actively seeking companionship, but the one scene they did with that, he turned the woman down even though he knew there was no way he would see Emma again and that she didn't even remember him.

 

They've been pretty careful with the way CS has been written.

Edited August 20, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

I mean, in "Snow Falls", even the present-day stuff, the chemistry between Mary Margaret and David was off the charts and you really wanted them together.  But the moment they threw in Kathryn as a long-suffering wife, it made that unenjoyable.  I did like Kathryn and I like that they made her sympathetic, so I wouldn't have wanted an Evil Kathryn (which was one approach they could have taken).  Still, there were so many other ways which could have kept MM and David apart, while not implying they were adulterers and hurting other people in their romantic pursuit of one another.  

 

If they insisted on the marriage, they could have had David resisting Kathryn's sexual advances.  They could have eventually shown David deciding to be single, but then Mary Margaret just not having the courage to ask him out.  There could have been other misunderstandings that could have kept them apart.  Even the initial concept of Mary Margaret being a nun could have been fine as long as they didn't have Mary Margaret and David sleeping together until their memories returned.  I feel that A&E sort of relished having Mary Margaret/Snow White slapped by Kathryn and slut-shamed.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Camera One

[Souris]

Let's be honest, the show's track record with relationships is rather squicky. There were off-putting adultery overtones with David/Mary Margaret and Regina/Robin, even though in both cases it wasn't technically adultery, they just thought it was at the time. There's the domestic abusiveness of the Rumbelle relationship. Emma was underage when Neal got her pregnant. Regina/Graham was rape, even though they won't admit it. Robin/Zarian, ditto.

 

I dread whatever squickiness is coming with Hook and Emma, since it seems sadly inevitable that it'll happen on this show. The Dark Swan arc sets up the possibility of all kinds of consent issues.

[mjgchick]

I guess for me since I don't really believe in marriage the adultery stuff didn't matter to me? I liked that at the end of the day Regina was really the only bad person. Plus Dave and MM were technically married. What squeeked me out was the show making MM/Dave sleep with other people. Unless of course if that's what you meant then we agree. lol

 

I just hope the writers don't ruin what they did build with Hook and Emma. We know the writers can get lazy at times but I always assumed that the writers at least enjoys writing for is them compared to well every other relationship on the show that includes the faux friendship between Emma and Regina.

[october]

I dread whatever squickiness is coming with Hook and Emma, since it seems sadly inevitable that it'll happen on this show. The Dark Swan arc sets up the possibility of all kinds of consent issues.

 

*Aziz Ansari voice* Nooooooooo :(

[YaddaYadda]

So a bunch of quotes from the Daily Mirror Thread;

 

Sympathy for the De Vil is the one that is exclusive to blu-ray.

 

they didn't build a set specifically but they changed a bar to look like the same one Emma and Neal used - still would have cost them money to do it though!

 

Well, I can imagine why they would want OQ to have similar moments to CS - maybe they think some of their popularity will rub off on OQ. But the same moments as Emma and Neal?! That's a couple even less popular than OQ! That makes no sense that they would go to the expense of building a set just for that... I really don't get it.

 

So I don't really understand why OQ can't have their own thing.

 

Granted, I wasn't exactly a fan of Neal's. I didn't hate him, I didn't love him, but that bar scene was really bad for Emma/Neal especially when he tells her that had he known who she was, he wouldn't have gone anywhere near her. Why would the writers want a similar setting for OQ when they're trying (albeit not that hard) to sell them as a couple and soulmates and all that good stuff? 

 

There was something else I was looking for which I can't find. It was Jane Espenson commentary about Captain Swan and how they're written and Lana commenting along with her about the slow built of the couple and how they have angst, and how you wanna get them to that place, but they're just taking everything slowly.  Meanwhile, OQ has been taken from 0 to 100 which again, makes no sense.

 

Is it because of who and how the characters are that the writing is like that or is it because the show cares more about one couple and is just writing the other on the fly?

 

I know that Captain Swan mirror Snowing in a lot of ways, but even when taking Snowing moments and having CS act those moments, the writers have actually taken care to make those moments belong to each couples distinctly.

 

So I really don't get what they're doing with OQ. 

 

(I don't know why I care because OQ makes me roll my eyes)

[OnceUponAJen]

What I would have liked to see with OQ is Robin remaining a man of honor, and him slowly bringing Regina into his world and viewpoint rather than him being dazzled by her bold audaciousness. I know they take a different spin on characters. Perhaps that means that they wanted Captain Hook to be a man with a good heart, and Robin to be a bit of a scoundrel instead. I just think it would have been much more compelling to see a slow change in the Evil Queen/Mayor Mills. In the end, I just truly love a good heartwarming fairy tale romance...with a happy ending.