Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KAOS Agent]

I think part of the reason why a Regina/Emma friendship doesn't work for me is that Regina's attitude comes from a place of resentment and jealousy towards Emma. She doesn't like that Emma is Henry's birth mom, she doesn't like that Emma is the Saviour, she doesn't like that Emma generally does the right thing, and she really doesn't like it that Emma does selfless things without the easily mocked hope speeches Snow gives. Like she said in Neverland, Emma has everything. The reality of that is quite different, but Regina's reality is a little skewed. So she takes the things she's proud of and puts down Emma for not having that because it makes her feel better. Emma eats like a child and isn't refined while Regina is. Emma's job is really boring. Emma doesn't do magic very well. Emma is an ex con. It's not pleasant. The writers seem to think Regina's barbs make her snarky and fun, but if you start to compile a list of put downs she gives to her so-called friends, it makes her seem really petty and not someone you'd want to hang out with.  It got particularly icky when they had Emma begging to be Regina's friend even though Regina was making it clear that she wasn't interested. 

 

On that same note, I don't know why Regina would want to hang out with someone whom she so clearly resents. That doesn't seem very healthy. They have none of the same interests and I have serious doubts on them having some kind of girls night gab fests. Regina is more interested in her high class refinement where Emma is supremely comfortable with a more casual, friends in low places life. A better, more realistic friendship would be Regina/Maleficent. Those two do seem to have similar interests and life experiences. I think Kristin Bauer van Straten was filming a pilot during the finale, so she may not be available (and I'm not overly interested in seeing a Regina gets a friend storyline), but she's a much better friend and sounding board for Regina than this forced Emma relationship.

[Curio]

On that same note, I don't know why Regina would want to hang out with someone whom she so clearly resents. That doesn't seem very healthy.

But didn't you read that Lana quote? Regina loves Emma like a sister. They would do anything for each other! I don't know why, but...yeah. 

 

They have none of the same interests and I have serious doubts on them having some kind of girls night gab fests. Regina is more interested in her high class refinement where Emma is supremely comfortable with a more casual, friends in low places life.

That's another reason why the friendship doesn't seem organic to me. Adam or Eddy gave an interview either before or during 4B where they said Regina and Emma would find common ground outside of their roles of being Henry's mothers and their magical abilities that would bring them closer together. Was that common ground Operation Mongoose? Because outside of their magic and Henry, I'm still not seeing any convincing arguments for why those two women would want to hang out with each other. Emma likes junk food, Regina likes kale. Emma likes blue jeans and leather jackets, Regina likes pant suits. Emma likes going to the docks, Regina goes to her crypt or the woods. Emma's cool with crashing on her parents' full size bed and not needing her own space, Regina lives alone in a huge mansion. Emma lived in the real world and on the streets, Regina lived in a lavish castle.

 

Sure, there are ways to overcome those kinds of differences, but without any active goals like Operation Mongoose, finding Lily, practicing magic, fighting villains, or discussing Henry's grades in school, I honestly have no idea what those two would talk about or do together as "friends" outside of a crisis. Compare that to Emma's relationship with her parents and Hook, and I can think of novel-sized stories of what they could do together during those "boring" dish washing scenes and Netflix nights.

[Crimson Belle]

 

But didn't you read that Lana quote? Regina loves Emma like a sister

Given her relationship with her sister, I'd say that is totally accurate.

[Dianthus]

XrystalPond, on 28 May 2015 - 5:10 PM, said:

Does Regina have a healthy relationship with any character? She is rude to and dismissive of everyone. She treats Henry like he's five, which is glaringly obvious with how tall he's gotten lately. She judges Emma for everything. Zelena might be wicked, but Regina was never going to love or accept her - especially now that she's knocked up. She locks people (Belle) up away from everyone. She locked Sidney in a mirror. She only quit trying to kill Snow because she...got bored, gave up? She's tried to kill Emma multiple times. She's killed the town's first sheriff who was also her forced lover. She has plotted to kill and/or steal the happy endings from everyone. She put herself into the role of the town's mayor, In the Enchanted Forest she had her husband killed and became the sole ruler of the kingdom as a result.

 

Don't get me started on the craziness that was Regina and Cora or the fact that her life's work and vendetta was based on a 10 year old's loose lips.

 

I'm thinking that maybe my dislike for Emma and Regina's friendship is not based on the unhealthy nature of it after all. Because Regina only seems to have unhealthy relationships. If this is how Regina treats her friends and loves, I wouldn't want to be her enemy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Regina is toxic. She's a raging narcissist and borderline sociopath. I simply don't understand why/how this is getting glossed over by the writers and her fans. I'm mad for Hook, but his imperfections (and awareness of same) are part of that.

[Camera One]

This article gave me a hearty laugh: What your favorite couple on "Once" says about you.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/86912-what-your-favorite-once-upon-a-time-pairing-says-about-you-from-swan-queen-to-snowing

Edited June 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

This article gave me a hearty laugh: What your favorite couple on "Once" says about you.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/86912-what-your-favorite-once-upon-a-time-pairing-says-about-you-from-swan-queen-to-snowing

 

"If romance isn’t your game, Regal Believer might be for you."

 

Hate to break it to you Bustle, but if you're going to list Regal Believer as a non-romantic relationship, then you also have to list Swan Queen as non-romantic based on the show's canon. (Although, I guess we've been sensing some strange Norman Bates vibes from Henry lately...) And why include Regal Believer but not Swan Believer? Or Captain Charming? Red Knave?

[OnceUponAJen]

This article gave me a hearty laugh: What your favorite couple on "Once" says about you.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/86912-what-your-favorite-once-upon-a-time-pairing-says-about-you-from-swan-queen-to-snowing

Ummm....sorry, but no on the Captain Swan part of that article. I got over my bad boy phase a long time ago. I didn't even like Hook that much until he was actually trying and treating the lady like a lady ought to be treated.

[Shanna Marie]

Ummm....sorry, but no on the Captain Swan part of that article. I got over my bad boy phase a long time ago. I didn't even like Hook that much until he was actually trying and treating the lady like a lady ought to be treated.

Yeah, I wasn't all that interested until we met Lt. Jones. But it's interesting that they led with the "bad boy" part but went on to talk about him giving her space, and all that. Isn't that usually the opposite of the bad boy relationship? Your typical bad boy type doesn't let the woman set the pace and take the lead and isn't all about offering emotional support. Hook may have the black leather and the guyliner, and he has a hot temper (that he's never taken out on Emma), but in a relationship he doesn't act at all like a bad boy, so if that's your thing, you may be less likely to be into that relationship.

[ParadoxLost]

And why include Regal Believer but not Swan Believer?

 

Because I had to read the article to figure out what Regal Believer was and I can do without the image of Bieber and Emma, because that was my first thought...Regina is a Belieber. 

[Dianthus]

I have a serious weakness for fictional rogues and scalawags (Han Solo, Spike, and a certain pirate captain). They all share the same character arc: growth beyond their bad boy ways.

[KAOS Agent]

A while ago I was reading elsewhere where someone nicely asked Outlaw Queen fans to explain the relationship in the context of what Robin & Regina get out of it and what they do together. What interested me about the response was how lackluster it was and how it was ultimately summed up as being all about Regina. Mostly because Robin has no character depth and the relationship narrative was completely focused on Regina (which, admittedly, was exactly how the showrunners explained they were going to frame the story). Outside of the lack of Robin perspective, the biggest problem I saw with the relationship description is that the conflicts are all entirely external. Due to the whole pixie dust soulmate thing, there is no doubt about each character's feelings for the other and no fear that they will conflict due to internal angst. The lack of internal worry about feelings was highlighted by the AU where Regina actually did have legitimate fear of rejection and ultimately that fear caused her to not interrupt the wedding. The AU scenario showed the potential for character growth that was thrown away by the insta-love and pixie dust.

 

It made me wonder why on earth the writers would create a pairing that is essentially ordained from the start and limit themselves to only external conflicts for those characters. Even the ultimate True Love couple Snowing went through various internal conflicts about the other's feelings. Rumbelle wasn't intended to be anything other than a one and done, so they get a pass on that one in terms of initial long term planning. Everyone who looked could see that Hook was crazy about Emma, but her own history with love (both romantic and platonic) has messed her up so badly that she has a very hard time trusting it. Hook's got his own feelings of inadequacy leading to internal conflicts and character development galore. It makes no sense that you would anoint a couple as "soulmates" before they even met and then expect to be able to tell a multi-season story about their relationship. Marian can only come between them once. Zelena is a non-factor in terms of their emotional commitment, so other than Robin's tendency to love the one he's with, where's the conflict? Why should I care?

Edited June 11, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder if we're supposed to care about OQ like that and no offense to their supporters.  I think the whole pixie ordained thing is so that Robin never questions Regina and the things she has done.  They never talks about her past as the Evil Queen and when Regina wanted Robin to be away from her because of the Shattered Sight spell, Robin was all "I'm not scared of you" to which she replied "you should be".  This right there pointed to the problem in the relationship in that Robin has no clue who Regina is, what she is capable of.  He saw her in all her EQ regalia back during the missing year, but that was a reformed Regina he was dealing with.

 

I think they did the whole pixie dust so that they don't bring up Regina's past in the present with Robin.

 

I think it's interesting that they're allowing CS to see each other at their worst.  Hook wasn't exactly sunshine and roses when he and Emma met and Emma is about to not be all sunshine and roses as the Dark One now that they are a couple, so there is a balancing act especially since both Emma and Hook made a choice to go down that road (although Emma's circumstances are a lot more extenuating and the Dark One is a whole entity on its own and I guess we'll have to wait and see how that plays out).

[october]

It makes no sense that you would anoint a couple as "soulmates" before they even met and then expect to be able to tell a multi-season story about their relationship. Marian can only come between them once. Zelena is a non-factor in terms of their emotional commitment, so other than Robin's tendency to love the one he's with, where's the conflict? Why should I care?

 

I agree very much. I was more than ready to give OutlawQueen a chance at first and even quite excited for how it would play out. But the relationship is, IMO, appalling and beyond salvage. I think the reason why might relate to Serena's recent post in the writer's thread about how Regina is such a writers' favourite that it seems like they're coddling her and shying away from taking her character into interesting territory with meaty and organic internal conflicts, the likes of which we see with Emma and Hook.

 

But there is no room for that with Regina when almost every character has been shoved onto the 'Regina is Awesome and Deserves All the Good Things' train. That's why Robin could shrug off past!Regina killing Marian or why we never got to see his reaction to Regina wanting to write his unborn child out of existence. To have him react naturally to Regina would be to have him be angry, confused and unsure whether he could be with her even as she is now.

 

Instead the storyline has Marian being written as coming inbetween them like a human roadblock and Robin wrestling with his 'code', when it should've been about the reality of what Regina did to Robin and his family. Before the S3 finale Robin would've probably had no idea what happened to his wife; no body or burial, she's just gone and he has to explain it to his infant son. That's horrifying and the truth, if nothing else, should've made Regina's crimes all the more real for him. But soon after finding out what happened he's lining up to have sex with her in the crypt dedicated to the father she murdered.

 

Other characters don't get an emotional reality around Regina. She's like a blackhole that warps them into being all about her, with few reactions or needs that conflict with her own. So it's not surprising that those OQ shippers focused on Regina in their answers. It's the same with some SQ shippers who seem to significantly prioritise Regina over Emma. On the other hand, most CS shippers I encounter seem to value Emma and Hook to an equal or almost equal degree. The way Regina is handled as a character just doesn't allow that kind of equality in her relationships with others.

[YaddaYadda]

I find they're actually scared of writing any kind of real genuine relationship for Regina where people can call her out on the things she has done.  I find that all her relationships hold some level of hypocrisy.  David calls Regina out every now and then and Hook calls her the Evil Queen to her face and rolls his eyes at her and he's probably the character who has the least suffered or hasn't suffered at all at her hands and even he shows contempt and annoyance at the things she says or does.

 

I'm all for bygones and all that stuff, but when circumstances call for it, then the writers should be honest in their writing and should just go there.  And that really applies to all the characters.  I get the feeling that whatever they do with Rumple will be Regina-esque and then some.

 

Robin wants to love Regina and see her through pink colored glasses?  Fine, but don't call her bold and audacious after she's waged war on people who did nothing to her.  I find Daniel/Regina a hell of a lot more developed than OQ anyway.

 

I'm having flashforwards of Belle telling Rumple that none of the things he did were his fault because of the Dark One and because he was trying to find his son.  Killing Milah?  Not his fault.  Maiming Hook?  Not his fault.  Murdering that maid?  Not his fault.  Manipulating Regina to mold her into what he wanted?  Not his fault...the list goes on.  I guess Rumple was also being bold and audacious.

 

(I read a story recently about a German woman who was working in some capacity (I really can't remember what she did) at one of the extermination camps during WW2.  She married (and they've been married for a very long time now) a Jewish man whose family had basically died during the Holocaust and I wondered how that was possible.  Maybe I'm not as forgiving, loving or as charitable as I thought I was.)

[Serena]

You know, the fact that Hook is the only one who, like once every 15 episode, MAY call Regina on her shit made me think - is it possible that it's because the writers think he's the only one with a strong enough fanbase to withstand the ER hatred? I mean, Rumple could also qualify, but it would be hypocritical on his part. But Hook's fanbase is as strong as Regina's, and it made me think back in S2 when Emma was like "no, I blame Regina for this" when they were trapped by Cora and she was called all kinds of names. 

[Free]

I. Just. Can't.

http://banditmills.tumblr.com/post/119293496697/mysweetcupoftea-lanas-reaction-to-emmas

Regina is protective of Emma and feels a love and a care towards her? I know actors sometimes have to flesh out the story in their heads to have something to work with, but I don't think I've ever seen any of what Lana said come across on screen.

 

I feel sorry for the actors that have to spin the writers intentions instead of what we're actually getting in the show itself.

[YaddaYadda]

You know, the fact that Hook is the only one who, like once every 15 episode, MAY call Regina on her shit made me think - is it possible that it's because the writers think he's the only one with a strong enough fanbase to withstand the ER hatred? I mean, Rumple could also qualify, but it would be hypocritical on his part. But Hook's fanbase is as strong as Regina's, and it made me think back in S2 when Emma was like "no, I blame Regina for this" when they were trapped by Cora and she was called all kinds of names. 

 

Which falls under the category of the writers cuddled Regina so much and made her into such a victim of everyone that if anyone breathes wrong in her direction, they get flack for it.  That's a writing problem.

 

Has David gotten flack for his anti-Regina comments that he makes to her face?  I'm not on social media (thank God!), so I don't know.

[mjgchick]

If he does its a rare thing because I don't think he registers that hard on the Once fandom unless you're a Snowing, Emma/Charming or Captain Charming fan.

It's so awkward to watch the characters kiss her ass honestly. They don't have to think of her as a villain but why does it feel so forced?

[Mari]

If worry about the Regina fans is the reason, it is very much a problem of their own making. Since they frame almost every single story from Regina's point of view, some fans don't seem to make a firm connection between Regina's actions and her victims.

Since the show does not allow the other characters to react to Regina's actions realistically, it is easy to overloookhow many people Regina has victimized. After all we didn't see Grumpy's pain or most of Snow's pain or most of David's pain or Red's pain, or Blue's pain, or Emma's or . . . So it must not really exist.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

You know, the fact that Hook is the only one who, like once every 15 episode, MAY call Regina on her shit made me think - is it possible that it's because the writers think he's the only one with a strong enough fanbase to withstand the ER hatred?

If they thought he had that big a fanbase, you'd think they'd give him something to do. And yeah, they've created a lot of the problem themselves. Just having Regina herself admit she was wrong might help. Quit depicting her and talking about her like she's a victim.

 

Thinking back to the article way above about the relationship between Emma and Regina, I think I could imagine Regina becoming protective of Emma. The problem is that we seem to be missing a season or at least an arc for transition. The way I can imagine Regina feeling protective of Emma is if she feels some guilt and responsibility for Emma being the way she is, since Emma was sent off alone because of Regina's curse and the Black Knights she sent to kill the newborn. And wanting to stop Emma from going down the dark path would require Regina to acknowledge that the path she took was the wrong one. That's the part we're missing here in all the relationships. Everyone else seems about a season ahead of Regina, where they've forgiven her and worked through it all but she still hasn't admitted her own wrongdoing. Not admitting her wrongdoing means that the relationships are weird because if she feels she's right, why would she even want to be friends with these people? Either Snow ruined her life or she didn't. If Snow did, then why would Regina stop trying to destroy her? If Snow didn't, then everything Regina did was wrong. (Yeah, we know it was wrong, but does Regina?)

 

Even a lot of Regina's snark works better if you add in a dose of guilt and shame. Without it, Regina bitching about the way Emma eats or making fat jokes about a woman who gave birth later that day just sounds tacky. But if you add some guilt and shame, then the snark becomes a defense mechanism, a kind of "I can't let myself think about what I did to these people now that I've come to care about them, so I'm going to try to keep them at a distance" thing, along the lines of Hook hiding from the welcome-back party for the fairies because he felt wrong being there after being the reason they were gone.

[Dani-Ellie]

Maybe it's just me, but I never found Regina's "You eat like a child" to Emma to be as bad as it was made out to be. From the anger I'd seen on Tumblr when the sneak peek was released, I expected it to be some mean-spirited snark fest. When I actually saw it in show, I was all, "But ... this is relatively innocuous."

 

Because 1) it's freakin' true, and find me one fanfic that says otherwise. Grilled cheese and onion rings and hot cocoa with cinnamon indeed. (And there's nothing wrong with that. I have a pretty childlike palate myself. Give me chicken parm or spaghetti and meatballs or mac and cheese and hot dogs, and I'm happy as a pig in shit.) 2) Regina wasn't sniping at Emma when she made the comment, so it came across to me more as "I tease because I love" than something mean-spirited.  3) And this is the most important one -- the joke gets turned back on Regina when she perks up at the prospect of the root beer Emma brought back for them. Who's the one with the childish tastes now, Regina?

 

I don't know, maybe I would have felt differently about it without that B-side, but as it is ... this is the line that launched a thousand angry blog posts?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

I don't know, maybe I would have felt differently about it without that B-side, but as it is ... this is the line that launched a thousand angry blog posts?

I don't know about the blog posts, but I think it was the context (and I don't get the feeling the writers thought they were flipping it around on Regina by having her want root beer). Emma brought her lunch, and she didn't thank her but rather snarked about what Emma chose to eat. Regina has seldom said anything positive or supportive to Emma that would put this line into any overall pattern of friends who tease each other. There are far worse things she's said and done, and this line taken on its own is hardly worth crucifying her over, but taken along with the way she treats Emma in general, it's part of a general snide superiority. The same line might have sounded different coming from just about anyone else. If Hook raised an eyebrow at Emma's entire lunch order consisting of fried foods, for instance, it would have been more like friends teasing each other. Regina's just so critical of everything that it's hard to see it that way from her.

 

But I chose this line on purpose because it's a good example of something that could have come across very differently with that missing story arc I was referring to, in which Regina gained a bit of self awareness and felt at all bad about the things she's done. If she'd done that and had ever been in any way kind to Emma, then this is exactly the kind of scene that could have looked snarky on the surface but had a subtext of Regina inwardly wincing because she's conscious that she's a big part of the reason Emma didn't have parents around who might have taught her better eating habits, and because she felt bad, it came out a little harsh and defensive. Instead, the way it struck me was Regina asserting her superiority over Emma yet again because her eating habits are better.

[Camera One]

I think the writers were going for sassy girlfriend banter at lunch.  Girlfriend who has tried to kill you and your parents.  Same room where she torched your mom's painting.  This show is really hilarious sometimes.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Mari]

I think the writers were going for sassy girlfriend banter at lunch. Girlfriend who has tried to kill you and your parents. Same room where she torched your mom's painting. This show is really hilarious sometimes.

Oh, absolutely. They were going for sassy girlfriend banter.

Unfortunately, only weeks ago one of the character's true hate was enough to overcome a true love artifact. The comment is definitely not Regina's most rage-inspiring comment, but given her history of insulting her victims and the less fortunate around her, simply for being less fortunate, and combining it with the powerful true hate she evidently felt for Emma just weeks before? It was more than a little forced and tone -deaf.

So, much like the rest of their friendship.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Mari

[KAOS Agent]

There were two "sassy" exchanges between Emma and Regina in that episode. Both came off as rather forced because they don't really have that kind of relationship, but the food comment came across a lot worse than the stuff about the choice of yellow for her car. I liked the car banter. The problem is that I think the writers don't really consider how Regina's past actions affected Emma's lifestyle choices. So where someone like Hook could get away with making fun of Emma for always eating grease and sugar and all manner of unhealthy foods, Regina really can't because Emma's relationship with food is tied into her miserable childhood which Regina was responsible for. When Regina comments that her palate is more sophisticated and befitting her royal status, you flashback to Young!Emma shoveling food into her mouth as fast as possible because if she doesn't the other kids will steal it and she'll go hungry.  There's no time or care about developing any kind of taste palate when all you really care about is having food at all. Those habits still exist today in spite of the fact that Emma is in no danger of going hungry. She still eats everything put in front of her and tends to do it quickly. It's the kind of writing for the relationship that probably wouldn't bother the average viewer, but comes off as really insensitive and tone deaf to those who put more thought into the show and its characters.

Edited June 12, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

The thing about the Infamous Salad Scene is that they seemed to be trying to show us sassy girlfriend banter, but they seemed to have missed all the subtext they unintentionally created in the scene.

 

For one thing, the difference between sassy girlfriend banter and bitchiness is that the sassy banter comes in an overall context of love and kindness. Nice things have to be said at some point to put the banter in context. Good friends can say stuff like "I hate you" and you know it's not meant because of the other nice things they've said and done. When all that's ever said is the snark, how do you know it's meant in love?

 

Then there's the fact that the sheriff of the town is delivering lunch to the mayor, and it's not during any kind of town crisis that's requiring both of them to eat while they work. It's while Regina is focused on finding her own happy ending. Emma has done a favor for Regina, and Regina doesn't even thank her. She acts like it's owed to her and then criticizes Emma. And then there's all the stuff about the reason Emma doesn't have the refined tastes of royalty, since she didn't get to grow up as the princess she is due to Regina's actions. Regina is snarking about the results of what she caused to happen to Emma. It's a very "let them eat cake" kind of attitude. Regina's the kind of person who would cause a famine, then look at how skinny the people became and say, "Geez, eat a sandwich."

 

It would have come across very differently if, say, Emma had been bringing lunch for both of them because they were frantically working on something for the greater good, or to benefit Emma, rather than it being about Operation Mongoose. Or if Regina had been the one to order in lunch and made a snarky remark while giving Emma the lunch she knew she'd want (then it would have shown that even if she didn't agree with Emma's food choices, she'd known what Emma would want and had bothered to get it for her).

[Camera One]

Then there's the fact that the sheriff of the town is delivering lunch to the mayor, and it's not during any kind of town crisis that's requiring both of them to eat while they work. It's while Regina is focused on finding her own happy ending. Emma has done a favor for Regina, and Regina doesn't even thank her. She acts like it's owed to her and then criticizes Emma. 

 

I thought they were implying that Emma and Regina had begun having lunch dates in the 6 weeks since the 4A finale, or the norm was Emma dropped by for friendly visits when she felt Regina needed a break.  Because it was oh so peaceful in Storybrooke, and there was nothing else to do.  If the Mayor could spend her whole time looking for her own happy ending, why didn't Snow just keep the job?  

Edited June 13, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

There were just several lines in the Salad Scene that just didn't make sense. How would Emma know what foods "got to" Regina? Why would Regina chuckle when she told Emma she ate like a child when all her previous snark has usually been bitchy? I really didn't buy Regina's freak out about Page 23 in that scene, either. The acting was super awkward, but the actors made do with what they were given. It was just so forced to show close they've gotten we friends over six weeks.

Later in the episode, they're back to their usual banter. So weird.

[Camera One]

Maybe they could do a flashback to the 6 week time gap.  

 

EMMA: Hi homie, I got grilled cheese for our lunch. 

REGINA: Girl talk time!!!!!

EMMA: I swear I eat like a child sometime.

REGINA: Let's make that our inside joke.

EMMA: Yes! I never got to have inside jokes as a child.  Let's talk shop. Operation Mongoose time!

[wingster55]

Has David gotten flack for his anti-Regina comments that he makes to her face?

 

In general? Dunno but a SQ online friend of mine has no love lost for Charming. 

[Shanna Marie]

It wouldn't have taken too many tweaks to make the Infamous Salad Scene more palatable. Maybe something like:

 

Emma enters the mayor's office.

REGINA: (as though she's been kept waiting) Oh, there you are. Lunch is here already. I hope you don't mind that I ordered in.

EMMA: (warily eying the plate of greens on Regina's desk) Um, thanks.

REGINA: (with an eye roll, handing over a grease-stained paper bag) Don't worry, I got you some fried foods. Grilled cheese and onion rings.

EMMA: (actually kind of touched, and a little surprised, that Regina thought of her) Wow, thanks! That was really nice of you.

REGINA: (with a "before this turns into some kind of hair-braiding thing" tone) You eat like a child.

 

We still get snark from Regina, but with a touch of humanity, and she's actually doing something moderately nice without getting sappy about it. I don't know why they seem so afraid of letting her ever do nice things for others. That would give her more license to snark, with the suggestion that the snark is kind of a defense mechanism.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm baffled by 2x20, The Evil Queen. It's not that bad of an episode per se, but it's another instance of great setup with not so great follow-up. Regina seeing the world through the eyes of her victims? Fantastic. Snow explaining to Regina that there's still good in her and Regina receiving it? Great. Then there's that village massacre... quite the curveball. I feel like that was in there for the sole purpose of explaining why that moment between Snow and Regina didn't start the redemption course.

 

It does make mad though, because it was the perfect opportunity to seal the deal and they stopped it dead in its tracks. Not to mention all that crap happening in the present with the failsafe and memory wipes. Regina's reasoning for her revenge journey is so shallow and pathetic that just one conversation should have screwed her head on straight... and for a moment, it did. She had a lightbulb moment and realized there was hope. Cue the dead bodies and Snow's proclamation of unforgiveness, and it's all gone. What a tease, writers.

 

There's a few more close calls for Snow and Regina. Bleeding Through had some nice dialogue in the kitchen, except it became more of Snow kissing up and Regina just saying "it's complicated". That could have been the episode to tie up loose ends from their rivalry since the beginning. But what's more important? Cora's ghost of course! Smash the Mirror also had some nice heart-to-hearts between the two and it was rudely interrupted by the Page 23 nonsense.

 

What's truly strange is that even though we had all these chances... it's Cora and Zelena that "fix" Regina in the episode Mother with a few lame lines. That's all it took to reverse her entire frame of thinking. Snow had absolutely no part in it, even though she was supposedly the drive to redeem Regina from the beginning. Like... why show? What's the point of their relationship?

[KAOS Agent]

The show sometimes likes to act like it has sewn up the Regina/Snow relationship, but it's so based on Snow placating Regina or cheerleading her with almost zero reciprocation on Regina's end that I have a hard time with it. When it gets to the level of Snow semi-condoning Regina's adulterous affair, there's a problem (and I really appreciated Ginny making it clear in an interview that she was very uncomfortable with that). It's not a relationship that Regina particularly cares about unless she needs something out of it, but she at least seems to have moved on to "it's complicated," so there's improvement.

 

One of the ways I would have bought Regina's redemption arc better was if they'd kept her evil acts solely related to her vengeance quest against Snow. All of the collateral damage and lives she destroyed would be tied to her snapping after Daniel's death and single-mindedly going after Snow. Once they brought in Owen & Kurt and showed Regina murdering the groom and punishing Hansel & Gretel, they took away that base reason for her evil and she's just a crazy bitch. If it had stuck to Snow related evil, then Regina semi-patching up her relationship with Snow relieves her potential for future evil since her reason for acting that way in the past had been rendered moot. Then again, they clearly showed that Regina's evil is not simply connected to her relationship with Snow since she went off the reservation in Season 4 by stealing hearts & blood, enslaving a man and plotting to kill a young mother. These incidents occurred because Regina wasn't able to deal with the obstacles in life which makes her potential for reverting to all out evil much more likely should something else come along to rock the boat. They had her pulling back before she went too far, but those were huge red flags that even though she seems to have moved on to a better relationship with Snow, she still has serious issues with evil. 

Edited June 21, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

One of the ways I would have bought Regina's redemption arc better was if they'd kept her evil acts solely related to her vengeance quest against Snow.

 

Yes, and there they go, having Regina murdering a groom on his wedding day because her daddy said the wrong thing to her.  In what alternate universe can anyone make sense of the decisions that go on in the writing room, I have no idea.

[Free]

 

Once they brought in Owen & Kurt and showed Regina murdering the groom and punishing Hansel & Gretel, they took away that base reason for her evil and she's just a crazy bitch.

 

That's also what made the "poor Regina" stuff so messy, they'd have Regina do these terrible things and then cut to a scene of Regina crying and being sad.  This was especially true since S2, since then she's suddenly BFFs with the main characters.

[Curio]

The Hook thread was discussing the (practically non-existent on screen) relationship between young Bae and Hook, and how disappointing it was that we never got to see more of their interactions in Neverland flashbacks. They supposedly became super close on Hook's ship, but we never saw them interact with each other after Hook allowed Pan's crew to take him away. The show made it seem like Hook tried to keep tabs on Bae while he was on the island because he knew about his cave and also knew a lot about the topography of the island, but we don't know much beyond that.

 

Did Hook try to contact Bae while he was on the island at all? Did part of Hook's deal to get off the island also include a caveat about Bae being able to leave? How did both of them leave the island? Was Bae on the island during that flashback about Ursula? Was part of the reason why Hook was so willing to run errands for Pan (like getting him cakes from other lands) just to appease him, knowing Bae would likely get some of those cakes, too? Did Hook ever try to secretly protect Bae from Pan? If Bae was desperate enough to leave the island, I doubt Pan would have been happy about that, and then maybe we could have gotten an iconic scene between Hook and Pan sword fighting if Hook knew it would be enough of a distraction for Bae to escape the island.

 

Of course, none of this will ever be addressed and will only live in fanfic because this show sucks at developing relationships outside of the core 3 or 4 family/romantic pairings.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Did part of Hook's deal to get off the island also include a caveat about Bae being able to leave? How did both of them leave the island?

Didn't we know about Bae? He trapped the Shadow in the coconut/colander/star map and made it fly him to our world. That's how they knew how to get away this time around. Since Hook was back in the Enchanted Forest for good before the curse and Bae had to have arrived in our world during the curse (if he arrived before the curse and therefore before Hook left, his relationship with Emma gets even creepier because then he'd be physically about fifteen years older than she was), Hook must have left first. My guess is that even if he offered to take Bae with him, he was going back to the Enchanted Forest world and Bae didn't want to go back to where his father was. That would have been a good scene to see. Hook did tell Belle (I think it was her, when she came to confront him on his ship) that Rumple's son didn't want to be found. If Bae had chosen to stay in Neverland rather than to be in the same world as his father, that would explain how Hook knew Bae didn't want to see his father.

 

They do seem to depict sailing the Jolly Roger as being as easy as just moving the steering wheel, so maybe they think that the brief "port/starboard" lesson we saw accounted for Neal's claim to know how to sail a pirate ship and his ability to get it from New York to Storybrooke, but logically it seems like there would have been more lessons required and more time on the ship than we saw in order for him to be that familiar with the ship and to fit the way Hook talked to Henry about teaching Bae to sail. Pan referred to Bae/Neal as Hook's friend, which implies there was more going on than Hook just watching a Bae who wanted nothing to do with him.

 

There's just so much potential here that they totally missed. Even with Neal dead, this should have played into the enmity between Rumple and Hook. Bae having been Hook's friend would have driven Rumple crazy, even if he had to be grudgingly grateful for Hook looking after his son. The people Rumple pushes away always seem to end up with Hook -- another reason they missed an opportunity with the friendship between Belle and Hook. They didn't need to contrive a weak romance with Will. Just seeing Belle hanging out with Hook should have outraged Rumple more than enough since he already lost his first wife and his son to Hook.

[Curio]

Didn't we know about Bae? He trapped the Shadow in the coconut/colander/star map and made it fly him to our world. That's how they knew how to get away this time around.

 

I probably worded my questions poorly. We know the coconut/shadow was the vessel Neal used to escape the island, but I feel like there had to have been more to escaping than just capturing a shadow. For a place that's supposedly very difficult to escape from, Pan allowing both Hook and Bae to leave the island seems a little sloppy. But I guess that's all we have to go by, so I have to accept it as canon. In my personal head canon, I have a scene like this:

 

My guess is that even if he offered to take Bae with him, he was going back to the Enchanted Forest world and Bae didn't want to go back to where his father was. That would have been a good scene to see.

 

It would have been nice to see a scene where Hook arranged a deal with Pan to leave the island, and then Hook offered to take Bae with him, but Bae would refuse. Which would actually fit with Neal's personality and his decision to not go to Storybrooke the first time when he first received the postcard.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Curio

[RadioGirl27]

Hook-Neal was such a missed opportunity. Actually, Hook-Neal-Rumple was even a bigger missed opportunity, that would have been a way more interesting "triangle" than Hook-Neal-Emma.

[Shanna Marie]

It would have been nice to see a scene where Hook arranged a deal with Pan to leave the island, and then Hook offered to take Bae with him, but Bae would refuse.

There are also a lot of other possibilities woven into the scenario. For instance, was this another case of Hook choosing revenge over love, where it was more important to him to get back to the Enchanted Forest to try to kill Rumple than to stay behind with Bae or to use the exit visa to take Bae elsewhere where they could have gone on with their lives as father/son or brothers or uncle/nephew in their own little family, and so he made a bad choice when Bae refused to go back with him? Did Bae feel abandoned yet again by yet another parent figure (first his mom, then his dad, and now his stepdad) when Hook chose to leave, or was he totally okay with it because he didn't want to go with Hook? Did Bae initially want to go with Hook but panicked at the last second and didn't show up, so that Hook was the one who felt abandoned? Was it a mutual and friendly parting of the ways? Did Pan intervene and keep Bae from leaving? Did Bae choose to stay so that Hook could leave? Were there any tough choices to be made by either of them?

[Curio]

Shanna Marie, it's a shame this show never dedicated half a season to Neverland or forced our characters to interact with the island and its inhabitants. Perhaps then, we could have gotten insight into how all those possible Hook/Bae/Rumple/Pan scenarios went down.

 

Oh, wait...

 

Edit: It sucks knowing we'll never have the possibility of seeing any of those situations play out on screen because the actors who play young Bae and Pan look too old for the roles now. Unless the show did a dream sequence where Hook has a nightmare about that time he ditched Bae for his chance to find the Dark One in the Enchanted Forest, and Bae is played by an older Neal/MRJ because that's how Hook views Bae now.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

I think just about all the relationships on this show are a case of the writers creating something really interesting but apparently either not realizing it or not being interested in mining it. I know that the Snow and Regina thing is at the core of the concept of the show, but it still feels like in the flashbacks we're basically getting the Coyote and Road Runner show -- Regina comes up with elaborate scheme to destroy Snow and it fails, or sometimes Snow decides to take out Regina but changes her mind at the last second, lather, rinse, repeat a zillion times -- instead of doing anything with any of the other relationships. There really isn't any complexity to that relationship in the past -- Regina believes Snow ruined her life, Snow feels kind of bad about it but also doesn't want to die and doesn't want people she cares about to die. The complexity is in the present, but whitewashing Regina and shortcutting her redemption keeps them from actually dealing with it. They've cut straight to the "they're friends now, and all part of one big family" part without ever dealing with all the things Regina did. No normal human being in Snow's shoes would ever be friends with Regina. She could take the high road and forgive her, but she wouldn't want Regina to be a part of her life.

 

It's Rumple's family and Hook where things are really complex in the past because the two men are such foils to each other and have so many loved ones in common. Even if Rumple became bitter about Milah and retroactively un-loved her, both of them loved Bae and mourn him. Rumple spent at least a century (probably more) trying to find and reach Bae while Hook spent most of that time with Bae. Does Rumple even know about the relationship between Hook and Bae, and if so, is it still more jealousy and paranoia about losing people to Hook, or is there any gratitude to Hook for looking after Bae? Bae/Neal might not even have been alive for Rumple to find if it hadn't been for Hook (at the very least, because his ship was there to rescue Bae from the water in the first place). I guess that's one reason I was a little disappointed they went straight to the full-on evil hat/stolen heart thing with Rumple and Hook because I was hoping to see if there might have been even a slight moment of sympathy/empathy over their mutual grief about Neal. 3B Rumple seemed to actually regret all the awful things Zelena was making him do to Hook. I can't imagine them ever becoming friends (then again, Snow and Regina, ugh), but it would have been interesting to see them somewhat tolerating each other's presence in respect for Neal, who cared about them both.

 

In my headcanon, Milah and Killian had come back to get Bae when they ran into Rumple again, since Killian told Bae that they'd planned to come back for him when he was old enough. It's interesting to ponder what might have happened if they'd done so a little earlier. If they'd been a bit more than a year earlier, they might have been able to take him away before he was drafted, and Rumple never would have had that reason to become the Dark One. But would Bae have been willing to leave his beloved papa to go off with his runaway mother and her pirate boy toy? Would Rumple have been capable, even then, of being unselfish enough to recognize that it might be the best thing for Bae to get him away from the war? Or if they'd come back after Rumple became the Dark One but before Bae bailed, what then? Bae might have more eagerly turned to his mother to escape his father, but Rumple wouldn't have taken it well and the outcome might have been the same. They wouldn't have been fighting over a magic bean because Rumple wouldn't have needed it at that time, but they likely would have been fighting over Bae. Then he'd have had even more reason to try to escape, if he'd actually seen his father kill his mother. That's still something that irks me -- most of his life, he thought Hook killed his mother, then he learned that his father killed his mother, and yet toward the end he was okay with both of them.

 

I wish they hadn't killed off Neal so soon. They could have done some interesting things there and avoided the cliche of the triangle. Hook still could have taken a step back for Henry's sake to give Neal a chance with Emma, and that could even have been one of his reasons for not telling her what he did to reach her, and then Emma and Neal on their own could have figured out (as they seemed to have in "Quiet Minds") that it wasn't going to happen with them, and then all of them could have worked out a complicated family arrangement in which the stepdad is now younger than the stepson and is dating the stepson's former lover, and they're all friends and remember that Henry is the priority, with Henry going from no dad at all to having a biological father and a step-grandfather on the verge of becoming his stepfather. Meanwhile, Rumple would have had to watch his son being close friends with his oldest enemy, and he couldn't overtly act against his enemy without risking alienating his son.

[Faemonic]

 I guess that's one reason I was a little disappointed they went straight to the full-on evil hat/stolen heart thing with Rumple and Hook because I was hoping to see if there might have been even a slight moment of sympathy/empathy over their mutual grief about Neal. 3B Rumple seemed to actually regret all the awful things Zelena was making him do to Hook. I can't imagine them ever becoming friends (then again, Snow and Regina, ugh), but it would have been interesting to see them somewhat tolerating each other's presence in respect for Neal, who cared about them both.

That's partly what I hated so much about Hook's "Emma's the mother of your grandson, don't do this!" line, because, Captain Derp, you had firsthand witnessed that Rumple is willing to kill the actual mother of his actual son. Nealfire had actually called Gold out on the Undoing By Truest Belieber Prophecy in front of you and you were there to hear it. You were gloating last week about knowing that The Crocodile never changes. Nothing has changed in this relationship!

 

It's my headcanon that after Rumple drives away from Zelena with Hook in the boot of the car, he has to haul him out and cut him loose but they snark at each other like "Selfish!" "Cowardly!" "Cad!" "Demon!" "Homewrecker!" And then they get to fisticuffs because Zelena forbade Rumple magicking Hook to death for her muahahaha plan, and then they get tired enough to share rum and hug out their manly tears because Nealfire is still dead.

 

#MyOT3IsNotCanon and also the hypotenuse is dead.

 

 

 

I wish they hadn't killed off Neal so soon. They could have done some interesting things there and avoided the cliche of the triangle. Hook still could have taken a step back for Henry's sake to give Neal a chance with Emma, and that could even have been one of his reasons for not telling her what he did to reach her, and then Emma and Neal on their own could have figured out (as they seemed to have in "Quiet Minds") that it wasn't going to happen with them, and then all of them could have worked out a complicated family arrangement in which the stepdad is now younger than the stepson and is dating the stepson's former lover, and they're all friends and remember that Henry is the priority, with Henry going from no dad at all to having a biological father and a step-grandfather on the verge of becoming his stepfather. Meanwhile, Rumple would have had to watch his son being close friends with his oldest enemy, and he couldn't overtly act against his enemy without risking alienating his son.

 

Much as I like Captain Swan, I do feel that Swan Thief was shortchanged in a disappointingly rushed exploration of the dynamic there...and I would not at all have been averse to Killian Jones continuing to be the town bike (or trying to be) for a couple more seasons than he was. Although I've caught frames of him making the flirty face at David and Elsa so it maybe is just his face all the time.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Faemonic

[Camera One]

I wish they hadn't killed off Neal so soon. They could have done some interesting things there and avoided the cliche of the triangle. Hook still could have taken a step back for Henry's sake to give Neal a chance with Emma, and that could even have been one of his reasons for not telling her what he did to reach her, and then Emma and Neal on their own could have figured out (as they seemed to have in "Quiet Minds") that it wasn't going to happen with them, and then all of them could have worked out a complicated family arrangement in which the stepdad is now younger than the stepson and is dating the stepson's former lover, and they're all friends and remember that Henry is the priority, with Henry going from no dad at all to having a biological father and a step-grandfather on the verge of becoming his stepfather.

 

At the very least, knowing they would kill him in "Quiet Minds", they could have sapped all the story potential from Neal in 2B and 3A.  If they knew he was goners, why not tell Bae's full story in "Nasty Habits" instead of the Pied Piper stuff?   Unless they hadn't decided he was going to die by that point?  His final significant conversation with Henry was actually with Panry?  That's just low.

 

And if we're following A&E's argument that killing off Neal was necessary to propel other character growth/development, that hasn't really been the case either.  Henry has had a wordless montage, and one or two out-of-nowhere conversations.  Neal's death just made Rumple revert and nothing deeper than that.  His so-called heartfelt declaration grave-side in the 4A premiere felt like exposition to catch viewers up and was more boring than affecting.  Emma had the scene about how everyone she gets close to dies, but that's it.

 

It's not surprising, though.  Neal falls into the category of "boring generally well-meaning character" which invokes "what the hell do we do with them?" response in these writers.  For good or for bad, I feel Neal at least had a personality, which is more than can be said for their writing of Robin Hood (poor actor who has to work with such bland material).  The writers already have a hard enough time thinking of stuff to give Snow and Charming, even though there's a boat-load of rich relationship building conflicts that has been ignored in favor of using them as props.

 

 

 

Although I've caught frames of him making the flirty face at David and Elsa so it maybe is just his face all the time.

 

LOL.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

That's partly what I hated so much about Hook's "Emma's the mother of your grandson, don't do this!" line, because, Captain Derp, you had firsthand witnessed that Rumple is willing to kill the actual mother of his actual son.

In fairness to Captain Heart on His Sleeve, the situations were somewhat different. Rumple killed Milah in a fit of anger because she'd wronged him while he was just using Emma as a resource, very coldly, with no animosity to her. I think Captain Hot Temper can kind of get killing in anger, even if he wouldn't do it to someone he loved and especially not the mother of his child, while killing someone he actually likes and who is a family member just because her death could be useful is a big Does Not Compute.

 

Much as I like Captain Swan, I do feel that Swan Thief was shortchanged in a disappointingly rushed exploration of the dynamic there

As is so often the case on this show, it was badly set up and badly paid off. Emma's portal-side "I love you" wasn't at all earned, given that five minutes ago he was refusing to listen to her and giving her the "you're just jealous" treatment after he brought his fiancee to town right away, mostly to rub Emma's nose in her and prove that he'd moved on. It was a big "huh?" for Emma, and then her later behavior didn't at all match it. Now it kind of cheapens her last-second "I love you" to Hook, since she has a pattern of those "one of us may be about to die, so I may as well say it" moments. They really should have had her say it earlier and then repeat it in that last scene. I guess her Echo Caves speech a big asterisk to the "I love you," specifying the conditions and restrictions to that love and the damage it had done to her. But it all still came across like the big season finale moment that was ultimately meaningless, since by the time Neal came back Captain Swan was already under full sail in a very obvious way. There's no point in a triangle in which one party is the obvious chump from the get-go, no matter how strongly he's earned the "chump" title. Killing off Neal so early didn't do Hook any favors, either, since it looks like he won by default. The relationship would have been stronger if Emma had really had a chance to consider Neal as a viable option and had come to the conclusion that she'd changed a lot since she was with him, they just didn't fit together anymore, and she'd never really be able to trust him fully, and if Neal had been man enough to see that -- which he kind of was in "Quiet Minds," but how did he get there from his previous stance of being willing to do something really stupid and possibly even evil in order to be reunited with Emma and Henry?

 

Although I've caught frames of him making the flirty face at David and Elsa so it maybe is just his face all the time.

He does seem to take that "I'm so pretty, gotta love me!" defensive approach to the world. Colin has mentioned in interviews that he developed the character as being very smooth and charming and has said possibly not entirely jokingly that it's the exact opposite of his real personality (I happen to find him very charming, but in an entirely different way), so I think he works at radiating that attitude to the point it permeates his non-verbals even in the background of scenes. I'm pretty sure he makes flirty faces at lampposts and brick walls, too.

[Mari]

As is so often the case on this show, it was badly set up and badly paid off. Emma's portal-side "I love you" wasn't at all earned, given that five minutes ago he was refusing to listen to her and giving her the "you're just jealous" treatment after he brought his fiancee to town right away, mostly to rub Emma's nose in her and prove that he'd moved on. It was a big "huh?" for Emma, and then her later behavior didn't at all match it. 

We've written before about moments that made us go incandescent with rage and almost quit the show.  Emma's "I love you!" to Neal was almost that moment for me.  I actually shouted at my TV "NO, You don't!  What??"  or some variation.  The only reason they kept me is that Hook came back, made a truce with Rumple, and they all headed to Neverland, and I wanted to see where that was going.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Mari

[Curio]

So apparently, not only was the part where Colin used his teeth to tie Emma's hand improvised, but Jen improvised the part where she tackles Killian onto her bed during the Season 4 finale. I swear, these writers better build shrines to their actors and thank their lucky stars they have talented people who can take their mediocre scripts and turn them into television gold on screen.

 

I am now 100% convinced Captain Swan would not work without both Jen and Colin at the reigns.

[YaddaYadda]

Probably not.  I wonder how the bed scene was supposed to play out originally now.  Maybe something like the "let me crush your heart in your chest" scene played out.  Thank the TV Gods for those two.  

[Camera One]

Probably in the same way the line-up-single-file-on-Main-Street scenes play out.

[orza]

Typically tv scripts don't have detailed directions in them, just general stuff to indicate what is happening in the scene. Sometimes they do if it is important to the story that a scene has to be played in a particular way, but usually not. It is the job of the director and actors to work out the details during filming. These things don't make the actors geniuses. They just happen to be the ones talking about the process in public.