Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Shanna Marie]

While I would love to see Regina and Rumple actually get the blame for their actions, I think that would only help the situation with Emma and Snow by making Snow feel a little less guilt about what happened to Emma, which might make it less difficult for her to hear about it. But the problem is still there with the fact of what happened causing her pain, regardless of whose fault it was. The truth about her daughter destroys the image she has in her head of the daughter she wanted and the life she wanted for her daughter, and until she can get over that and accept the truth about the daughter she has, she won't be able to have a real, deep relationship with Emma. I don't think Emma has actually considered the possibility that they could have done something different. She buys the "we had no choice" thing. The problem comes when Snow uses the "we had no choice" defensively, as though Emma isn't allowed to discuss or even acknowledge what happened to her because her parents had no choice. Emma didn't seem to have a problem with her parents -- no bitterness, no blame on them, even pointing out once (back before Regina was beatified) that the blame was on Regina -- until this latest episode. What was horribly wrong there was that not only was Snow in denial about the life Emma had, but she actually took that "how dare you" tone, as though Emma was at fault for hurting her by acknowledging the truth that she and her brother are having very different childhood experiences. So now not only is Emma not allowed to mention the truth about her life, but she's in the wrong for hurting Snow by reminding her of it.

 

A better way of handling it would be for Snow to acknowledge the fact that Snowflake and Emma will have very different lives because of what happened. They can't make up for it by going back, but Snow can try to build a relationship with the daughter she has by facing it. Emma shouldn't be chastised for telling the truth (though on this show that's apparently a sign of darkness), and it would take a saint not to feel some pain and resentment at seeing a younger sibling get everything she wished she could have had but didn't get as a child, especially when it's not just a case of better toys and more electronics, but rather the very basic things like love and security.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think these writers are even aware that this is what they're portraying. There's that Regina-shaped blind spot that keeps her from getting any blame and that keeps anyone else from having feelings or reactions. And there's the weird way that although the plot is heavily serialized, they write the character and emotional stuff like this was a family sitcom from the 1980s -- in one episode, a problem that was never acknowledged as a problem before will suddenly pop up, then be resolved with hugs, and then never acknowledged again in future episodes. So while we've seen the stuff simmering with Snow's reaction to Emma, the writers seem to think they've been writing a great relationship. Then suddenly they need Emma to believe her parents fear her for the plot to work, and so they write The One Where Emma's Parents Fear Her without actually dealing with the real stuff they've inadvertently established. Once it's no longer needed for the plot, it will be forgotten entirely, after probably being resolved far too quickly and easily for something so deep and serious.

[scenicbyway]

I still say that Snow was Neal's biggest fan.  She named her kid after him for pete's sake.  Snow believes in true love and must've thought that since Neal and Emma had a kid and were separated by circumstances so that she could be the Savior, that they were just true love waiting to reunite just like she and Charming.  All the signs pointed to Emma being disturbed by Neal and not wanting a relationship with him but Snow just couldn't see it.  I'm not sure that she even sees now that it was a mistake to name Snowflake, Neal.

 

I do think that Snow's been at a loss as to what to do with Emma since the Echo cave.  What strikes me the most is Snow refusing to put Neal in someone else's care or even in his crib to give Emma some attention beyond the one time she took the photo of Emma.  The Snow of season 2 would've been out looking for Emma with Charming and probably would've found her.  In fact, I'm not sure why they couldn't find her since everyone tends to hide in the woods.  Maybe Hook only checked the docks?

[Curio]

When my ex and I split up, I remember yelling at my dad for talking to him when they were in the grocery store at the same time. I can't imagine what would make them think it was a good idea. Or why not just have it as a middle name? Drives me batty.

It seriously makes me wonder if Adam or Eddy never had to deal with a breakup or an ex in their entire lives. Did they both only date one person and decide to marry them? Because I feel like anyone who has had an ex (even if it ended on okay terms and you're still cordial) would think that any family member naming a kid after their ex is a huge hell no.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Snowing had the worst idea ever naming Baby Do Over after the ex.  It's not even that Neal was a terrible person, because I don't think he was.  He was a coward and now they're shining his effin' halo brighter and brighter by claiming he died a hero (which I still don't get, still don't see, still don't accept).  I don't know if Snow was going off the whole Emma telling Neal she loved him and how she looked "crushed" after he was presumed dead, but your daughter is telling you she kissed this man and you've seen them with their heads together, you've seen them throw looks at each other, so clearly there's an attraction there.   The whole I'm sure Neal will forgive you...really?  I don't know which part of Neal wasn't a great guy didn't register? 

 

Honestly...I thought that was a fail on Snow's part as Emma's friend, later she fails as a mother when she talks about wanting a baby.

 

This show makes me feel like I need to be on medication...ALL THE TIME!

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not sure Snow and David actually thought of Neal as an "ex." They might think that he and Emma would have eventually found their way back together if he'd lived. That may be part of the denial. They don't want to think that their teenage daughter was left alone and pregnant by some loser who abandoned her and didn't show up in her life again until his father tracked him down and that the family would never actually be reunited in that way. Instead, they seemed to think that they were miraculously reunited and had a few things to work out on the way to their happy ending before their love was tragically cut short by his heroic death.

 

That's why I wish they hadn't killed Neal so soon. If he'd still been around, then everyone would have had to face the fact that he and Emma weren't going to get together again (if they weren't), and it would seem more like Emma would get to make a choice rather than it going to Hook by default. I also would have liked to see what would have happened if Hook's decision to step out of the way and give Neal a chance to reunite his family had lasted for more than an episode or so. That really would have shown, one way or another, how things really stood. Instead, Neal dying the way he did and giving Emma his blessing to move on (gag) makes it seem like they were True Loves who were tragically separated, and now she's stuck with that other guy by default. That is, to anyone not privy to that last conversation between Neal and Emma, where it seems rather obvious that they both know it's not gonna happen but they can be friends.

[Curio]

I'm not sure Snow and David actually thought of Neal as an "ex." They might think that he and Emma would have eventually found their way back together if he'd lived.

 

I feel like Snow and David understood Emma and Neal were exes, considering David had to basically drag Emma to go on a date with the guy. And the fact that it was a date means they were potentially in the process of early-dating, which usually implies the two parties aren't officially a super exclusive thing yet. But I do agree that Snow and David believed Emma and Neal would naturally fall back together and become True Loves just because they're Henry's parents.

 

But even if Snow and David - for some odd reason - didn't fully grasp the idea of what an "ex" is, Adam and Eddy sure do. They know exactly what happened to Neal and Emma in the past, yet they still wanted to name Emma's brother that name. As a writer, aren't names kind of important? Regina means queen/royalty, David is a biblical reference to a shepherd, etc. So why on Earth, as writers, would Adam and Eddy want to settle this new character with that name?

 

Speaking of names... what would Baby Neal's full name be? Neal Blanchard-Nolan? Neal Nolan-Blanchard? Maybe I'll just start using his full name from now on to emphasize its ridiculousness.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Curio

[stealinghome]

I think the problem with baby Nealflake's name is that that was a 500% inorganic character decision that was based solely on Adam and Eddie wanting to pretend Neal 1.0 was a hero. It really has nothing to do with whether or not Snow or Charming grasped that Neal and Emma were exes (which they clearly did) or whether they thought they might get back together (which they seemed to think was possible if not certain) or whatever. It was Adam and Eddie's way of shoving down our throat that Neal 1.0 Was A Hero, Dammit, Why Won't You Just Accept That?

[Shanna Marie]

I feel like Snow and David understood Emma and Neal were exes, considering David had to basically drag Emma to go on a date with the guy. And the fact that it was a date means they were potentially in the process of early-dating, which usually implies the two parties aren't officially a super exclusive thing yet.

But I'm not sure they saw that so much as "exes" as "tragically separated by fate." "Ex" implies actually making a decision to break up, which, yeah, Neal did, but that later got whitewashed as "he had no choice," which is something that Snow would totally buy into and relate to. In Snow's view, his decision to leave Emma may have been the equivalent of her sending Emma away in the wardrobe -- something done for the greater good that Emma would surely understand once she knew the reasons. So Emma might have been mad at him and thought him to not be a good guy before, but once she learned his reasons, that he did it so she could fulfill her destiny (never mind that it made no sense that he had to do it that way), she wouldn't be angry at him anymore and they would get back together. In Snow and David's view, Neal and Emma might only have been exes in the sense that they were during the time Snow walked away and claimed not to love him in order to save David's life. They also had some things to work through once they were reunited, and that may have been what they expected of Emma and Neal. So they may have thought they were memorializing the man Emma would have ended up with if he'd lived rather than naming their child after the rat who screwed up Emma's emotional well-being. Of course, they missed a whole lot of clues along the way, but they were trying to cram a real-world relationship into a fairytale mold.

 

It was Adam and Eddie's way of shoving down our throat that Neal 1.0 Was A Hero, Dammit, Why Won't You Just Accept That?

You know what might have worked? Writing it that way. If they planned to kill him and wanted him to be remembered as a hero, then there were dozens of ways he could have died heroically. Dying because he blundered ahead into Zelena's trap and raised the Dark One knowing it was Zelena's trap and without considering what the cost would be, effectively giving Zelena just what she wanted in having her very own Dark One on a leash, and then letting himself be separated from a really warped existence inside his father's body (probably the grossest thing we've seen on this show) so that Rumple could tell them that the stranger in town creeping all over them and wearing a really obvious big necklace was the Wicked Witch wasn't exactly going on with a blaze of heroic glory. Not to mention the "he loved us and we loved him" revisionist history when I'm not sure that David and Neal spoke more than five words to each other. And the fact that even if it hadn't been Zelena's trap, that whole life for a life thing would have meant that Neal would have died to raise the Dark One in order to find a way to be reunited with Emma and his son, which rather defeats the purpose. He probably should have looked into that.

 

I guess these writers have as skewed an idea of heroism as they do of morality.

[Serena]

I think the problem with baby Nealflake's name is that that was a 500% inorganic character decision that was based solely on Adam and Eddie wanting to pretend Neal 1.0 was a hero. It really has nothing to do with whether or not Snow or Charming grasped that Neal and Emma were exes (which they clearly did) or whether they thought they might get back together (which they seemed to think was possible if not certain) or whatever. It was Adam and Eddie's way of shoving down our throat that Neal 1.0 Was A Hero, Dammit, Why Won't You Just Accept That?

This. This was something they did because they knew some fans (not many, but still) would be pissed he was being killed off. Those fans wouldn't have their favourite character anymore, their favourite ship would be dead, and Emma would be ending up together with a character they hate. So they gave them this "congrats for partecipating!" trophy.

 

But you know, if they wanted to paint Neal as a hero, they could have... you know, written him as one. They couldn't rewrite previous seasons (even though they love to try) but why have Neal go off on that dumb adventure with Belle? Like, MRJ was a regular for all S3 anyway, so they had to pay him in any case - why not have him build a relationship with Snowing, and then actually have them witness his heroic sacrifice (which would be an actual heroic sacrifice, not killing himself trying to make a super evil guy come back to life)? That would have made marginally more sense.

 

Not to mention the "he loved us and we loved him" revisionist history when I'm not sure that David and Neal spoke more than five words to each other.

I remember in early S3, pre-Neal joining the Nevengers, Josh was doing a Q&A on Twitter and someone asked him "what does Charming think of Neal?". He answered "he really likes him!" and I have to admit, I was One Of Those Fans who obnoxiously tweeted him back "They've literally never spoken to each other in their entire lives ever". I'm like, what are we missing here?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Serena

[stealinghome]

So Emma might have been mad at him and thought him to not be a good guy before, but once she learned his reasons, that he did it so she could fulfill her destiny (never mind that it made no sense that he had to do it that way), she wouldn't be angry at him anymore and they would get back together.

I don't even know if Snow (and maybe Charming) were wrong with this perception, though. By the end of Neal's time on the show, even Emma was buying the "I had no choice" stuff hook, line, and sinker.

 

You know what might have worked? Writing it that way.

Well, yeah. But it's this writing team.

[KAOS Agent]

 

By the end of Neal's time on the show, even Emma was buying the "I had no choice" stuff hook, line, and sinker.

 

Eh, they've had Emma desperately trying to cling to the "no choice" argument about her parents in her conversation with the Snow Queen too, so Emma's feelings on the subject seem to change at the writers' plot induced whims. I thought by the time Emma was agreeing with Neal about him having no choice that she was just pretty much over arguing the whole thing. Having an argument about Neal's past choices in the hospital wasn't going to fit in with the narrative anyway, so the writers needed Emma to just agree with him and move on with the exposition of why Henry can't see Neal and to explain his confused reaction when told of his death at the end of the episode.   

 

As to the ridiculous naming the baby Neal, I think the writers realized their mistake. They were all Hero Neal and isn't it sweet, then people pointed out how weird it was in addition to causing confusion going forward whenever someone references Neal. Are they talking about Snowflake or Emma's deadbeat ex? Sure, in context, it usually makes sense but there is still always that moment of huh? whenever they say the name Neal when referring to the baby. 

[Camera One]

I think the problem with baby Nealflake's name is that that was a 500% inorganic character decision that was based solely on Adam and Eddie wanting to pretend Neal 1.0 was a hero. It really has nothing to do with whether or not Snow or Charming grasped that Neal and Emma were exes (which they clearly did) or whether they thought they might get back together (which they seemed to think was possible if not certain) or whatever. It was Adam and Eddie's way of shoving down our throat that Neal 1.0 Was A Hero, Dammit, Why Won't You Just Accept That?

 

Adam and Eddy hardly wanted to spend time writing for Neal, so I don't think they personally care that much if Neal was a hero or not.  If they did care, they would have made better use of Neal in his final season and written a better death episode.  I agree that it has little to do with Snow or Charming.  They named the baby Neal to placate the Neal/Emma fandom, to make it look like they cared, and so they could say Neal would always be remembered.  Not only did naming the baby Neal make all the viewers who hated Neal angry, it also does nothing to make fans who enjoyed Neal feel better, because why would it.  He's still gone.  I actually think it would be more respectful to Neal if they hadn't given his name to someone new.  Another empty gesture that satisfied no one and accomplished nothing worthwhile.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Not only did naming the baby Neal make all the viewers who hated Neal angry, it also does nothing to make fans who enjoyed Neal feel better, because why would it.  He's still gone.  I actually think it would be more respectful to Neal if they hadn't given his name to someone new.  Another empty gesture that satisfied no one and accomplished nothing worthwhile.

Naming the baby wasn't even enough for them. They had to add in flashbacks, mentions, the Neal/Emma photo, and that big tribute speech by Rumple in 4x01. It's like a cop-out - they don't want to write the character any more, but they still want his presence in the show for the relationship dynamics. I admit I wasn't a fan of Neal, but only because of the way he was written so blandly. If a little more effort was put into him, then he would have been a very interesting character. He had far more potential than just being a leash for Rumple and an old flame for Emma.

Edited November 14, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

Pan telling Emma that she hasn't forgiven her parents for giving her away or have everything the Snow Queen said resonate so deeply with Emma? It's obvious that they know that it's not at all okay,

I don't think they do. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks they went through fan reactions and is addressing it by telling them they are wrong. A&E sounds like they spend an extraordinary amount of time online looking for reactions. It's the same vibe I get with Rumbelle. Oh you think Rumbelle is messed up? Well here's an evil mirror that agrees with that sentiment. Now go away. You think the Charmings' family dynamic is messed up? Well heres Ingrid, our lovely villain who's lying about Anna/Elsa, playing mind games that agrees with you.

Because bottom line, this story can only end one way and we've seen it plenty of times before. Emma admits she has a truckload of issues that's all her and was/is wrong. Emma's bitter cause Neal abandoned her? Emma wrong, Neal's a hero. Emma wants to live in NYC away from the crazy? Emma wrong, she's just a cold bitch to her parents. Every Emma "story" ends with Emma is wrong and learns a lesson. She's kind of thick though cause the lessons don't stick. No doubt that this is the final reaffirmation that all is bright and shiny in the Charming household, after Emma gets rid of her attitude. That is until 5A.

I know people think Snow was being crappy last episode but she was set as a comparison with Gerda/Helga. Gerda urned Ingrid. Snow immediately felt bad and is looking to comfort her runaway kid. She wasn't exactly Helga who was steadfast in her support, but Snow's not urning anyone. Emma's story was to contrast with Ingrid's. Ingrid has a legitimate gripe seeing as how she was urned for decades. Emma got manipulated, played like a fool etc.

[KAOS Agent]

Adam said on twitter that the mirror told Belle the truth. Now he backed off that a little when Rumbellers went crazy, but his point was that truth is subjective. Star Wars fans that they are, he might pull out Obi Wan's line to Luke when confronted with his lie about Darth Vader/Anakin where he said that what he'd told Luke was true "from a certain point of view".

The same can be said of the things told to Emma. She was sacrificed for the greater good. There were other choices. Her mother has feared her. All truths. Emma sees this through the prism of her experience and it kills her. Emma has always felt alone and unworthy of love. Now she has proof that this is true of her parents. What she doesn't see is that she was sacrificed because she was loved. Or that just because they fear her powers or can't understand her, that it doesn't mean they don't love her and want her in their lives. One doesn't preclude the other.

While I hate that they are going to completely ignore that Snow's behavior in this episode would have far reaching consequences (someone with Emma's history would never be able to fully trust in her love after this), they did not in any way try to frame Snow's actions as okay. She failed in a massive way and her defensiveness was shown as a Snow issue, not just an Emma one. By showing only fear, she did reflect a lack of trust in her daughter and that does demonstrate cracks from the Snowing side of the relationship, not the Emma side.

ETA: I really want Snow to face the mirror because I think that would give us a better perspective on how they see Snow and her relationship with Emma.

Edited November 14, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Heh--this does make sense: http://bookstars3.tumblr.com/post/102569444632/since-the-beginning-of-the-show-emma-and-regina

So, if being with Regina is reverting Robin back to a man of dis-honor, how is Regina to get her Happy Ending and still be a hero? I do feel bad for Marian in all this. She should have let well alone.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

I love this theory, and it makes a lot of sense. I wish this was what the writers are trying to tell us. But I doubt it. They love Regina way too much.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, as much as that's how I personally perceive the situation, there's no way that's where the writers are heading with it. They flove Regina way too much, and clearly doodle "OUTLAW QUEEN 4EVER!" in the margins of their notebooks.

[Guest]

ETA: I really want Snow to face the mirror because I think that would give us a better perspective on how they see Snow and her relationship with Emma.

 

The two I really want to face the mirror are Snow and Regina because they are the ones that I don't have confidence that I understand what A&E are trying to do with them.  In Snow's case I wonder half the time if Snow's indifference to Emma since 4A is lazy writing or setting up exactly the story we are getting with Emma right now.  Really I think it was laziness that got pointed out to them and they felt stupid and inept so pretended like they were setting this up all along to protect their egos.  Same thing with Regina.  I don't quite buy that they flove Regina that much or they wouldn't make so many missteps with her, like slaughtering villagers and almost executing Marian.  So what are they going for or do they just sacrifice any character to set up plot and then try to clean it up later if there is enough uproar.  Maybe the mirror would give insight. 

 

It did give me the reassurance that I think I'm interpreting Belle and Rumpel correctly.

[Rumsy4]

It would be interesting if the mirror shards temporarily drive a wedge between Snow and Charming so that they are forced to confront the effect of the choices they made with regard to their children, particularly Emma. Maybe Snow feels resentful that Emma is more at ease with Charming (if she even noticed it, that it). Or maybe Charming resents that Snow is neglecting him, and won't even put down Bby Snoflake for 5 minutes. But of course, one the Spell breaks, they won't ever mentions the issues that were brought up. Like for instance, we never got Snow and Charming have conversations about their Cursed Personalities except for one throwaway line about Dr. Whale. So, it's probably all going to be pointless. 

[KAOS Agent]

 

They flove Regina way too much, and clearly doodle "OUTLAW QUEEN 4EVER!" in the margins of their notebooks.

 

I wonder why they would do this though. Regina has been painted as the mature adult in this relationship and I've enjoyed that because it shows a level of self-respect. If they love this character so much, why would they pair her with someone who actually says that being with her makes him dishonorable? Someone who is ruining his life? That's not painting a healthy portrait of future happiness. Reception of Outlaw Queen has been lukewarm at best. I've even seen some of the most positive reviewers of this show refrain from commenting on this romance because it's making them uncomfortable. No one really wants to cheer on adultery - especially when Marian has been said to be a woman who sacrificed everything for her husband. A lot of people would like Regina to be happy, but even if Marian happily runs off with Mulan, it's going to be difficult to remove the nasty taste left by the beginning of the relationship.

[ShadowFacts]

I have always said Regina and Robin's "love" is going to be tainted.  It can't be anything but.  And having a tryst in a crypt is emblematic of that.  While his wife is dying.  It doesn't get much uglier than that.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Reception of Outlaw Queen has been lukewarm at best. I've even seen some of the most positive reviewers of this show refrain from commenting on this romance because it's making them uncomfortable.

The only Outlaw Queen shippers I see are Evil Regals happy to see Regina in a relationship. They don't give a flying flip about Robin Hood - they just want to see Regina happy. The irony of all this is exactly what you stated: Outlaw Queen actually brings her down rather than building her up.

[Rumsy4]

I have always said Regina and Robin's "love" is going to be tainted.  It can't be anything but.  And having a tryst in a crypt is emblematic of that.  While his wife is dying.  It doesn't get much uglier than that.

 

And said wife's heart is in that crypt. They could have literally bumped their elbows on the box that housed Marian's heart while trysting.

 

No one really wants to cheer on adultery - especially when Marian has been said to be a woman who sacrificed everything for her husband. A lot of people would like Regina to be happy, but even if Marian happily runs off with Mulan, it's going to be difficult to remove the nasty taste left by the beginning of the relationship.

 

It will be even uglier if/when Marian dies. But these are the same writers who have let Regina's mass murders and rape slide by the wayside. So, what's a little adultery on the side? 

Edited November 15, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Mari]

I have always said Regina and Robin's "love" is going to be tainted.  It can't be anything but.  And having a tryst in a crypt is emblematic of that.  While his wife is dying.  It doesn't get much uglier than that.

Yes, yes it is tainted, and having their affair rekindle in the Loot and Trophy Crypt is particularly tasteless--and in most shows I'd be screaming "Symbolism!  Clumsy, obvious symbolism!  Doom will follow!"

 

However, I've no confidence the show will ever actually address that issue, or see it as not-good.  So far, the story has been almost overwhelmingly been presented as "Regina was finally happy if it weren't for the meddling of Emma.  If only Emma had allowed Regina to kill Marian when she originally wanted to do it.  Regina is being victimized again."

 

I haven't seen anything in-story, or in the interview bits of read, that contradict that interpretation.  It creeps me out, and it's possible that they're going for the surprise factor when it actually does end badly, but, well, that would definitely be a surprise.

 

 

 

And said wife's heart is in that crypt. They could have literally bumped their elbows on the box that housed Marian's heart while trysting.

Gaah!  Rumsy, I hadn't thought of that.  Blech. 

[YaddaYadda]

OQ is about lust and sex.  If Regina hadn't seen that tattoo, she wouldn't have given the man a second glance or she would just be having sex with him which is basically what they're doing now.

 

It must be true love.

[KAOS Agent]

So far, the story has been almost overwhelmingly been presented as "Regina was finally happy if it weren't for the meddling of Emma.  If only Emma had allowed Regina to kill Marian when she originally wanted to do it.  Regina is being victimized again."

 

Well I've seen tons of Regina fans who want her to go back and save Milah to throw a spanner in Captain Swan. Only in this fandom would people think that retaliatory life saving is a bad thing.

Edited November 15, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

OQ is about lust and sex.  If Regina hadn't seen that tattoo, she wouldn't have given the man a second glance or she would just be having sex with him which is basically what they're doing now.

Preach it. Robin could have easily have been Graham. What if she hired him instead?  Regina don't give a crap about him unless it's about you know what. They don't even talk about Roland. When Outlaw Queen first became a thing, I thought Roland was going to be a big part of it since Regina had lost Henry. But nope. All we got was a trip to the evil ice cream parlor, the flying monkey attack, and Regina stalking from the bushes. When Robin's going back and forth between his women, he's not putting Roland into consideration one bit. How some people cheer on such a selfish relationship that's declared a True Love hero couple is beyond me.

 

I'm all for Regina finding a love interest, but every time they give her any kind of storyline, it becomes the giant zit on the face of the show. Redemption arc? Relationship with Henry? Yeah... Regina is where plot ideas go to die.

Edited November 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Robin could have easily have been Graham. What if she hired him instead?

 

Speaking of Graham! So, let me get this straight, Regina. Emma saves a woman's life (from you!) and accidentally screws up your love life. You took a man's life because he broke up with you, which totally-on-purpose screwed up Emma's (potential) love life. And somehow Emma is the one who is oh so wrong here?

 

Give me a freakin' break.

 

They don't even talk about Roland.

 

Where the hell is that adorable little kid staying while his dad hooks up with his mom's would-be murderer? Hopefully with Uncle Little John.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

Well I've seen tons of Regina fans who want her to go back and save Milah to throw a spanner in Captain Swan. Only in this fandom would people think that retaliatory life saving is a bad thing.

Yup. And if it happened it would likely be confusing and at times painful --but Hook seems to have loved her enough to be glad she was alive even if he has moved on and Henry would get to meet his grandmother. Plus, maybe meeting her predecessor would clue Belle in a little: certain aspects of Rumple's life could use a little wrinkle or two. Huh. Look at that. Not all bad.

And in the meantime, Regina still loses.

A. Emma had absolutely nothing to do with Milah's death. That won't rebound on her.

B. Rumple would have. . . .words for Regina. They'd likely being Elvish, as that's apparently the language of magic.

C. Milah wasn't married to Hook. Even with her around Hook and Emma wouldn't be cheating if they continued their relationship.

You're right. The fandom is crazy.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Mari

[RadioGirl27]

Yup. And if it happened it would likely be confusing and at times painful --but Hook seems to have loved her enough to be glad she was alive even if he has moved on and Henry would get to meet his grandmother. Plus, maybe meeting her predecessor would clue Belle in a little: certain aspects of Rumple's life could use a little wrinkle or two. Huh. Look at that. Not all bad.

And in the meantime, Regina still loses.

A. Emma had absolutely nothing to do with Milah's death. That won't rebound on her.

B. Rumple would have. . . .words for Regina. They'd likely being Elvish, as that's apparently the language of magic.

C. Milah wasn't married to Hook. Even with her around Hook and Emma wouldn't be cheating if they continued their relationship.

You're right. The fandom is crazy.

Now I want them to bring Milah back!

[Mari]

Now I want them to bring Milah back!

I know--the people thinking it would be a comparable situation to bringing back Marian?  Yes, in both cases a life would be saved, and that's good.  But, as a revenge move?  Completely stupid.  Emma might be stressed and concerned for a while, but Hook and Milah were a couple of hundred years ago; he's had time to process and move on.  If he didn't move on, then Emma knowing that and breaking up with him would be a good thing.  However,  the person who should really watch out if Regina did it would have to be Regina.

 

First of all, the person she'd be saving Milah from?  Rumple.  Rumple in full-blown, first-flush of power hunger.  Right after he let go of Baelfire, and started his quest.  Suddenly, the reason he didn't get that bean isn't Hook.  It's future Regina.  I might be misinterpreting Rumplestiltskin's character, but it often seems to me like the current version is tempered, a little.  He's more likely to take the long view, more likely to not go straight for revenge.  First generation Rumple?  Yeah.  Enjoy that, Regina.

 

Secondly, modern Rumple has a shiny new wife, and is in the process of trying to build himself a shiny new life.  A shiny new life that he's building on some very unstable ground.  How much faster would it crumble and fall apart if the wife he killed is suddenly meandering around Storybrooke, reminding people about who he used to be, pre Dark One.  Reminding Belle "Hey, did you know he killed me?  Just because he didn't like what I said.  That I desperately asked him to move to save our marriage, and he refused?"

 

Thirdly, we didn't get a whole lot of Milah.  What we did get?  She's passionate, determined, and doesn't mind causing problems.  However, she did seem to sincerely love Hook.  She's not going to try and ruin Hook's life--she' might try and get him back, but that's a different story--she's going to blame Rumple.

 

Who would Rumple blame?  Regina.  Regina who's never actually had to deal with Rumple as an enemy, and would most likely be completely out of her depth. 

[scarynikki12]

It could make for an interesting one off fanfic though.  When I first read about this last night I was stumped at first because I couldn't figure out how Regina could pull it off.  Rumpel tore Milah's heart from her body, to start, and then there's the problem of Regina not existing yet and therefore having trouble tapping into magic.  Emma seemed to only be able to do it last season because she's innately magical so Regina should have a harder time.  Then I remembered that Regina only got her magic back when she inhaled that book ink in the season 2 premiere and her expertise at taking hearts.  So, I decided that Regina would make this ill advised quest to the past under the assumption that she'd somehow screw Emma the way Emma did her but not know all the details.  Does she even know that Hook's Milah is Rumpel's ex and Neal's mom?  Because I feel like she doesn't.  Anyway, she arrives, manages to find Rumpel's domicile and, through pure luck (which is the biggest reason this whole thing would ever work), manages to break in, inhale some ink, and leave without him realizing it (say, while he's meeting with Smee about the bean).  Then she Apparates to the Jolly Roger to save Milah and start the process of returning back to the present.  She arrives just as Milah's leaving for the Rumpel confrontation scene.  She takes her heart and swaps it with a kitchen maid as one of the dockside inns, so that she can have complete control and make it seem like Milah dies when the time is right.  Then she sends her on her way as originally happened without knowing she's under control ala Graham and that Lost Boy.  Milah reveals herself, they return to the ship, Hook does his sleight of hand with the bean, Rumpel rages at Milah for abandoning Bae, takes her heart and squeezes it to dust.  Regina's watching from the docks and uses her control over Milah's heart to have her fall, say her last goodbyes to Hook, and then act dead.  She then witnesses Hook losing his hand, declaring his desire and determination for revenge, Rumpel Disapparating, and then the crew have the funeral for Milah.  Just when the body is dropped in the water, Regina Accios it to her side, returns the heart, and takes them back to the present ready to mess with Emma. 

 

I agree, the person who would truly be messed with at the end of the day would be Regina.  She'd bring Milah back but Emma would be the least of her worries.  She'd have Belle, Rumpel and Milah herself confronting her.  I agree that Hook would be happy that Milah was alive but stay with Emma as he'd moved on in the centuries that passed.  Emma would feel insecure about Milah's return but take a step back so as not to pressure Hook one way or the other.  I would say that Henry and Snow would be angry at Regina for intentionally trying to screw up Emma's love life but they'd both just reason away her actions so they can just observe.  Belle would be pissed and I could even see her wondering if the marriage was legal.  Rumpel would, of course, be angry that one of his victims lived and was a walking reminder of just how horrible he can be as the Dark One.  Milah, while feeling some gratitude that she wasn't killed, would still be pissed at Regina I think.  She'd come to the present ready to continue her life only to see that her partner was now in love with someone else.  Then there's the Neal wrinkle.  Milah may have left him, and we can debate how sincere she was when she told Rumpel that she regretted that decision, but I definitely believe that she never wished he was dead.  Coming forward to learn that he'd died, and at the hand of Regina's sister no less (show's view), should piss her off royally.  If Henry decides he doesn't want to get to know her at the same time (which is possible as he's only interacting with Rumpel for Regina's benefit and doesn't show much more interest in the Charmings these days), then that would just be salt in the wound for her. 

 

If the show were to go there, which I don't think they will as they showed almost no interest in Milah the first time around, then it should be presented as more evidence of how Regina is her own worst enemy and that she needs to learn that she'll be a lot happier in life if she stops trying to hurt others.  It shouldn't be presented as a quid pro quo situation where she wrecks Emma's love life on purpose and gets away with it because now they'd be even. 

[Shanna Marie]

Okay, that scenario of switching hearts and being able to save Milah without anyone knowing anything was different is about the only way I can think of that Regina wouldn't end up really messing things up. Otherwise, it would get into serious timeline screwups. It worked with Marian because she died an anonymous death when she was already missing and the people who knew her didn't know about her fate, so it didn't matter whether she was executed or brought into the future. Milah's death was witnessed, and it changed the course of Hook's life, which in turn had a lot of ripple effects.

 

So if Regina didn't do the fancy switcheroo outlined above and just popped onto the Jolly Roger before Rumple killed Milah and said, "Sorry to interrupt, but she's got an appointment in the future," then instead of going on an epic revenge quest against Rumple, Hook goes on an epic quest to track down the crazy lady from the future. Or, to somewhat replicate the Marian situation, Regina might take her away while Rumple still thinks Hook killed her. But then that means that Milah can't show up to prove to Rumple that Hook didn't kill her, so Hook dies. Either way, that likely means that Regina wouldn't get back to the present to be able to gloat about messing up Emma's relationship because there would be no relationship, since Hook would have died hundreds of years ago (unless he found a way to the future to find Milah, which still means no relationship). But the real twist is that there also likely wouldn't be a Henry. If Hook isn't in Neverland with the Jolly Roger, then there's no one to fish Bae out of the water when he arrives, so he probably dies. Or there's no one looking after him, so he dies. No Bae coming to modern America, no Henry. Emma still might have ended up in Storybrooke to end the curse because of destiny, fate and all that, but Regina would be the one who came out the biggest loser since her victim wouldn't know what she was missing, while Regina being outside the timestream might know that she no longer had a son. Emma might even be happier and better adjusted without Neal having screwed her over.

 

But even if it did work in such a way that nothing else in the timeline was altered, I don't think it would be quite as devastating as Regina might hope. For one thing, I don't imagine Hook being as wishy-washy as Robin. If he chose Milah, he'd tell Emma that he's sorry but Milah was his first love and he wants to be with her again, and then he'd stay with Milah. No slithering back to Emma behind Milah's back to talk about how he still loves her, really, and he's so conflicted. If he chose Emma, he'd tell Milah that he's a different man now, and the man he is now belongs with Emma, and then he'd stay with Emma, no slithering back to Milah to talk about how he still loves her. I suspect he would stay with Emma, and while it might take Milah a while to realize it (since for her it would have been just moments since she saw him and for him it's been centuries), she might agree with that choice. When they were together, their needs aligned perfectly. As she said to Rumple, she wanted travel and adventure, and being with Hook gave her that. I've never had the sense he had the same need. The ship was home to him and the crew his family. It was his roots and stability. His home offered her adventure. He's now found the community and stability in Storybrooke, so Milah would be back where she was with Rumple. I would imagine that with an entirely new world to explore, she'd soon be on a bus out of town and would send Henry postcards of her travels, occasionally popping in for major holidays, with her and Hook parting as friends.

 

But anyway, it's not like Regina would have to time travel to show Emma what it's like to have her promising new relationship scuttled. She already did that when she killed Graham to spite him and Emma.

[Rumsy4]

One "simpler" way for Regina to bring Milah back is if she made a deal with Ursula or some other sea god to transport Milah's body to the present the minute it was released into the ocean. Then, she could get Dr. Whale to resurrect her with a magical heart. After all, Dr. Whale could have perfected his experimental resurrection technique in the Missing Year. :-p

 

But I agree that Hook would not go back to Milah, and Milah would also realize that the Killian she knew is no more. She would probably feel bad for him that he had wasted centuries trying to avenge her death. Her meeting with Henry would be bittersweet, and I think she would try to build a relationship with her grandson. Emma would probably be afraid Killian would leave her, until he reassures her. Emma would totally offer to let her stay with them until she got her bearings, because, after all, they would need to keep her safe from Rumple. He still resents the fact that she left him. I can imagine a conversation between Belle and Milah. "He literally crushed my heart because I told him I didn't love him." "Rumple has a True Heart. It's your fault for not recognizing it." Gosh, I want to write this fic! 

[Camera One]

But I agree that Hook would not go back to Milah, and Milah would also realize that the Killian she knew is no more.

 

Who was the Killian she knew?  The one who was a pirate?  Is that the only reason she loved him?  I don't think Emma would be afraid Hook would leave her.  And if he does, so be it.  I think it's wishful thinking that Hook wouldn't be torn, and wouldn't ultimately choose Milah again. Emma would be be fine.  She'll find someone else.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Who was the Killian she knew?  The one who was a pirate?  Is that the only reason she loved him?  I don't think Emma would be afraid Hook would leave her.  And if he does, so be it.  I think it's wishful thinking that Hook wouldn't be torn, and wouldn't ultimately choose Milah again. Emma would be be fine.  She'll find someone else.

 

We don't know much about Milah and Killian's relationship, but she did seem to have loved him very much. They lived an itinerant lifestyle, and literal pillaging and plundering was part of their lives. Killian is not that person anymore, and if she knew he had moved on and found love again, I think she would eventually understand. 

 

I don't think it is wishful thinking that Hook wouldn't choose Milah again. He wouldn't stop loving her, but probably not the way he loves Emma now, and would try to help her get acclimatized to Storybrooke. As for Emma, her first instinct would be be doubt that Killian would stay with her. She is yet to see a man who hasn't left her one way or the other, and the reappearance of Milah would seem like the worst confirmation of her fears. If Hook did choose Milah over Emma, Emma would obviously have to deal with it and hopefully eventually move on. But even for Emma, finding someone else would probably not be that easy. First of all, how many people would want to be involved with someone who's always in danger? She wouldn't stew in a crypt like Regina, to be sure, but Emma would need lots of time to get over Hook dumping her.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

If Milah came back, I actually do think that Hook would probably try to make it work with her for a little bit. The difference is that he's not pond scum, so he would break up with Emma and NOT then chase her around, confess his love over a comatose Milah's body, disregard her wishes when she says she wants time and space, and have sex with her in a crypt full of hearts. (That last part is so gross, I feel skeevy even just typing it.)

Ultimately, though, I think Hook and Milah would jointly (and pretty quickly) come to the realization that they're different people and don't work as a couple anymore, and mutually break up. And Hook would go back to Emma, and I'm sure ultimately work it out.

Tangentially, I watched Resurrection off and on last season, and there was a similar situation on that show--only it was handled 1000x better than this show has handled Marian. Sigh.

[Serena]

I think the thing to remember about the Hook/Milah/Emma (potential) situation in contrast with the OQ/Marian is that, putting aside romantic feelings for a second, and focusing on character development, Emma is to Hook what Marian was to Robin. I know, it sounds horrible because Robin is scum who treats Marian like dirt! But Emma has inspired Hook to be a better man the same way Marian inspired Robin (according to this latest episode).

However, the contrast is that Robin was originally a no-good thief, so his default setting would be to go back to that. Hook was originally an idealistic young man who wanted to be a hero, and he's returning to that. They're both going back to their "original" selves, and the women they're meant to be with are the ones who bring out their real selves. Sucks for Robin and Regina that Robin's real self is a huge asshole, but hey! look over there, some pixie dust! shiny!

[Camera One]

I think Hook and Milah would jointly (and pretty quickly) come to the realization that they're different people

 

To me, Milah would still be the same person, if for some reason she wasn't actually dead or she was brought back alive.  So it's only Hook who would have changed.  What's to say that Milah couldn't also change and move on from plunder and pillage, especially when she finds out her son died?  When Milah knew Hook, he wasn't yet looking for revenge on Rumple.  Hook could be the Emma in the renewed relationship with Milah, which would be an interesting role reversal.  This is mostly just a thought-experiment since it would never happen.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

If Milah came back, I actually do think that Hook would probably try to make it work with her for a little bit. 

 

Here's the thing--Hook and Emma are in a relationship right now (even if it is in the fledgeling stage), and he's been in love with her for a lot longer. I somehow can't see Hook going back and forth between two women. He would feel really bad for Milah (and he certainly wouldn't disrespect her--he always mentions her with respect), but he wouldn't go back to give it a try. 

 

(ETA: Incidentally, that's what Robin should have done. If the fact that being with his wife's murderer did not creep him out, he should not have tried to go back to Marian for the sake of his false sense of honor.)

 

The difference is that he's not pond scum, so he would break up with Emma and NOT then chase her around, confess his love over a comatose Milah's body, disregard her wishes when she says she wants time and space, and have sex with her in a crypt full of hearts. (That last part is so gross, I feel skeevy even just typing it.

 

Not to mention--Robin presumably had sex with Regina in the very crypt that actually houses Marian's heart. 

 

What's to say that Milah couldn't also change and move on from plunder and pillage, especially when she finds out her son died?

 

Sure--she could theoretically settle down. But if Hook is unwilling to be with her, she'd have to deal with it. 

Edited November 15, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

I think Emma is always waiting for the other show to drop, so Milah showing up would be just another thing to add to the long list of disappointments in her life. Emma represses. She'd give a bittersweet smile, offer to help Milah and never show anyone how much it hurt. That would be that.

 

As for Hook, people change, feelings change, it happens. Hook is perhaps more aware of this than anyone given his own experiences with Milah/Rumpel and with Neal/Emma. Hook and Milah would try to work it out and perhaps discover that they are no longer suited and part ways. Which is exactly what Robin and Marian should have done except Robin is a jackass and instead of being honest with his wife about how he's changed, he decided to be miserable with her while at that same time chasing the other woman. 

[Amerilla]

Here's the thing--Hook and Emma are in a relationship right now (even if it is in the fledgeling stage), and he's been in love with her for a lot longer. I somehow can't see Hook going back and forth between two women. He would feel really bad for Milah (and he certainly wouldn't disrespect her--he always mentions her with respect), but he wouldn't go back to give it a try.

 

Why wouldn't he go back and give it try, though?

 

It's not like he and Milah broke up. She died. And he spent 100, 200, or 400 years (depending on which writer is doing the dialog on any given scene) trying to avenge her death. He only gave that up about a year ago, which in the scheme of 100, 200, 400 years, is like a sneeze. A eyeblink.

 

Plus, this wasn't no "summer lovin', had me a blast" relationship. They were together for several years, it what appears to have been a pretty intense romantic relationship. By comparison, he's had "feelings" for Emma for about a year, but their active romantic relationship has only been a matter of, what, a week? Two weeks? (Technically, Robin and Regina have been actively together a few days longer than Hook and Emma.)

 

If Milah suddenly reappeared at this point, I have no doubt Hook would be torn. But I think if he he didn't give serious thought to returning to this woman who he supposedly loved enough to devote an infinity to avenging, he ends up looking pretty shallow.

[Mari]

But even if it did work in such a way that nothing else in the timeline was altered, I don't think it would be quite as devastating as Regina might hope. . . .

 

But anyway, it's not like Regina would have to time travel to show Emma what it's like to have her promising new relationship scuttled. She already did that when she killed Graham to spite him and Emma.

No, it most likely wouldn't--but it is a very Regina idea in regards to how and why to get revenge.  It would be getting back at someone for accidentally impacting her life, and doing it in a convoluted way that will not have the impact she thinks it will.  Regina's ideas about revenge seem to assume that everyone will react like she will--just like she assumes that things done to her are done on purpose, because it's what she would (or at times has) have done.

 

Think about her revenge on Snow--it was far more extreme than reasonable, very convoluted, and didn't have nearly the impact she thought it would, simply because Snow/Mary Margaret didn't react the way Regina thought she would.  Snow was sad, and lonely, but she's a person that will almost always find something to find joy in.  Regina is apparently incapable of doing that; if she's in any pain, that pain is all she seems capable of seeing/feeling.

 

As for Graham?  Well, Regina seems to see him breaking up with her as one more thing done "to" her.  In her head, he--and Emma--deserved what they got.

[Rumsy4]

As for Hook, people change, feelings change, it happens. Hook is perhaps more aware of this than anyone given his own experiences with Milah/Rumpel and with Neal/Emma. 

 

This is exactly why I don't think Hook would go back to Milah to give it another try. He seems to have finally grieved Milah in a much more healthier manner, and moved on to loving another woman. I see Hook like Sawyer. When Kate came back, he still would've stayed with Juliet, because despite his feelings for Kate, he was currently with Juliet, and he respected that. Incidentally, he regained his honor and self-respect when he was with Juliet. It's not the exact same scenario, but there are definite parallels. 

 

If Milah suddenly reappeared at this point, I have no doubt Hook would be torn. But I think if he he didn't give serious thought to returning to this woman who he supposedly loved enough to devote an infinity to avenging, he ends up looking pretty shallow.

 

To Hook, Milah had died. People do move on. That's part of life. He was not in Neverland anymore, and had put his quest for revenge aside for good. Would it be fair to Milah if he went back to her, but was all the time pining for Emma? And would it be fair to Emma if he eventually decided to end things with Milah and expected Emma to take him back? I don't see him doing that. He would still try and make sure Milah was going to be alright, but he would not go back to give their relationship another try if his heart was not in it. He is completely in love with Emma now, and one cannot turn off such feelings overnight. He wouldn't be able leave Emma. 

 

Which is why, to me, Robin moving on from Marian is not the real issue. Even leaving Regina out of the picture, we don't know if they would have worked things out. To him, she had died. The real issue is that he was not repulsed on learning that Regina was Marian's would-be murderer. His "relationship" with Regina constituted two dates (and maybe tacos). I don't see that it compares with Hook and Emma's longer and deeper connection. So, okay, maybe Robin fell in love with Regina super-fast (or maybe he spent the Missing Year secretly creeping on her). Instead of being honest with Marian, he gave a hypocritical and hurtful speech to Regina about his "honor", and kept going back for seconds. 

Edited November 16, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

As a general idea, "we have changed too much to go back to our old relationship" works fine. It would work fine in the Milah/Hook scenario because, well, Hook actually has changed. We have seen him work hard at it, etc. You may buy it the arc or not, like many things on the show, but you can't deny that that's the story the writers wanted to tell.

 

Robin, however, hasn't changed since Marian died. Or, at least, that's not the story the writers were meaning to tell. When Marian died Robin was a devoted father and husband, someone who hated injustice and helped the poor, etc. and we were supposed to buy him as pretty much the same person in 322 when Marian came back. So since he's the same person, why would he stop loving Marian? She's the one who gave him his code and his honor, and he certainly talks enough about it for us to know that he loves that.

So the only thing that actually changed is that now he has the hots for Regina. Of course, if what the writers mean to show is that Robin has in fact changed, and being with Regina is bringing back his old, worst self, I'll be impressed. But I fear that we're meant to see his action in his last episode as "giving in to true love" and "passionate".

Edited November 16, 2014 by Serena

[Mari]

As a general idea, "we have changed too much to go back to our old relationship" works fine. It would work fine in the Milah/Hook scenario because, well, Hook actually has changed. We have seen him work hard at it, etc. You may buy it the arc or not, like many things on the show, but you can't deny that that's the story the writers wanted to tell.

 

Robin, however, hasn't changed since Marian died. Or, at least, that's not the story the writers were meaning to tell. When Marian died Robin was a devoted father and husband, someone who hated injustice and helped the poor, etc. and we were supposed to buy him as pretty much the same person in 322 when Marian came back. Do since he's the same person, why would he stop loving Marian? She's the one who gave him his code and his honor, and he certainly talks enough about it for us to know that he loves that.

So the only thing that actually changed is that now he has the hots for Regina. Of course, if what the writers mean to show is that Robin has in fact changed, and being with Regina is bringing back his old, worst self, I'll be impressed. But I fear that we're meant to see his action in his last episode as "giving in to true love" and "passionate".

 

Yes.  I can see Hook struggling with figuring out exactly how he feels--but, well, Milah died at least 100 (maybe as many as 300) years ago.  That's a long time.  She'd be exactly the same person, but he's decidedly not.

 

He might have been focused on her, and on getting revenge for her, but that doesn't mean his personality was static.  He seems to have become a lot darker after she died, and a lot more willing to do things he thought of as wrong.  He made himself more evil.  Yes, it was on her behalf, but she wasn't actually part of it.  If she'd been around for it, they might have grown that way together, but she wasn't and they didn't--and just because Milah wanted adventure, doesn't mean would've been okay with the man Hook became to avenge her.

 

He then made some pretty radical changes the other way, too.  And like you said--it's possible to doubt that his reform was well done, or is permanent, but that is the story that we've been told so far.  Plus, when it comes right down to it, 100 (or 300) years is a long time to convince yourself that someone was ABCD, when really, they were ACDB.    We often remember people differently than we experience them, and that would have to be more pronounced with the incredibly prolonged time Hook would have thought she was dead.

 

On the other hand, we have Robin . . .

 

Sorry.  I'm pretty much shaking my head and going "um. . . yeah."  It was bad enough when he was using Regina's murderous past to make passes at her.  But when he didn't even miss a beat when he found out Regina killed Marian?  I just try not to think about him.  He's awful, and I don't think A&E are telling the story they think they're telling.

[Rumsy4]

Excellent point about Hook becoming darker after Milah's death, Mari. Hook was not a static character after Milah's death. And to me, he was way more obsessed with his revenge than on Milah herself. In Neverland, his grief and pain were unnaturally extended. After all, he was drinking and cavorting with Bar Wenches to drown his pain after he got back from Neverland. And once he realized that his pursuit of revenge had left him feeling empty, he was finally able to move on from his revenge, and moved on with his heart as well. 

 

As for Robin, I think after Marian died, Robin was sort of on auto-pilot. His changes probably never went too deep, and Marian was his entire moral compass. That's why he made stupid decisions in the name of honor, like letting Neal use his son as Shadow-bait, in the name of debt. 

 

 I don't think A&E are telling the story they think they're telling.

 

Once Upon a Time, in a nutshell.

[Serena]

As for Robin, I think after Marian died, Robin was sort of on auto-pilot. His changes probably never went too deep, and Marian was his entire moral compass. That's why he made stupid decisions in the name of honor, like letting Neal use his son as Shadow-bait, in the name of debt. 

You know, that's actually an interesting point. I obviously don't think A&E were going for this, but for fanwank's sake, what if the reason Robin makes these absolutely stupid decisions like thinking it's honorable to pay a "debt" by endangering his child is because he actually has no fricking clue what "honor" is, because Marian was his whole sense of honor/moral compass? Like, he doesn't have that thing inside of him telling him "nope, stealing a starving family's horse when you don't even need it is wrong" / "no, endangering your child because the son of a dude that once skinned you alive but then decided to stop asks you to is not the honorable thing to do" so he's just kind of flying blind? Like he doesn't actually know what it is, at all, so he just goes with whatever sounds most "honorable" at the moment even if it makes no sense!

Edited November 16, 2014 by Serena

[KAOS Agent]

I think something that's lost in the debate about who would do what are the plot device characters and how their experiences factor into something. Let's look at Milah. She left her husband for another man because she loved the new guy and her husband was making her miserable. As someone who'd been stuck in that miserable relationship, she'd know better than anyone that sticking it out just for the sake of old feelings or even a child doesn't really work and that maybe it makes things worse. Milah would be the last person to want to face that kind of situation again. So if Hook were honest about things and I believe he absolutely would be, their decision regarding how to go forward might be easier for both of them than many would suspect. Plus, she'd still be married to Rumpel who's also married to Belle, so there's a whole new set of problems with that.

 

Marian is a whole different issue because as far as we know, she does not have experience with love outside of her husband. However, what person would choose to be stuck in a situation where everyone is miserable? No, I don't think she'd be happy to have her husband hook up with her would be murderer, but she wouldn't want to stay with this creep either. Robin didn't give her the true facts or a choice in the matter and that's a huge problem. Now she's frozen and he's off screwing the other woman just a few days later. In fact, Regina said that the only way to save Marian is to forget her and Robin has said that he doesn't care. That's gross on a whole new level. He couldn't even try for a few days before chasing after Regina and essentially ending what is believed to be his wife's only chance at survival.