Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

YaddaYadda · November 11, 2014

Does this confirm Hook turning into a frozen statue at some point, then?

I thought it was interesting how Ingrid and Helga clearly had a closer bond than Ingrid and Gerda.

There are tons of theories as to what could happen to Hook. Frozen statue, he did mention something about being turned into an iceberg, chased and killed by a monster (Rumple? He was always Hook's monster after all).

As far as the sisters, Helga being the middle sister meant that she was like the glue that held everything together. I think she was as close to Ingrid as she was to Gerda (who is definitely not the Gerda from the Snow Queen story. I think they just threw that name at her). Gerda seemed to follow Helga's lead a lot. And really was expecting Helga to believe the Duke and freak out at her sister which really didn't happen and was extremely refreshing. Someone should point out that the weasel actually moved Helga in front of him to protect himself. Seems like this show enjoys men who are absolute cowards. Nothing is sexier than that!

I wonder if the ribbons are imbued with magic as well given the whole sisterly bond Rumple was talking about and how it can create its own magic.

Souris · November 11, 2014

I'm beginning to wonder if Marian was the real leader of the Merry Men.

Robin started out as the frat boy we saw partying it up at the tavern. Since that scene is pre-Marian, he would have been that heartless horse thief he described. Regina was meant to fall in love with a man with no code of honor and no direction. A man who simply took what he wanted.

He then met Marian and she somewhat changed him. She inspired him to be good and noble for her time with him and in her memory afterwards. Perhaps without her influence, he is just settling back into his natural existence. Returning back to that man that Regina was destined to meet and love.

Perhaps the original actor we saw playing Robin was the original Robin. Perhaps when he was killed, Marian replaced him with a semi-skilled horse thief so that they could continue to do the good work of the Merry Men. Perhaps Roland is the current Robin's step-son.

That's brilliant and is about the only scenario that seems to make sense of this mess. The show won't do it, because it's too clever.

Shanna Marie · November 11, 2014

Robin started out as the frat boy we saw partying it up at the tavern. Since that scene is pre-Marian, he would have been that heartless horse thief he described. Regina was meant to fall in love with a man with no code of honor and no direction. A man who simply took what he wanted.

Oooh. I bet they didn't intend to send that message, but maybe their subconscious was at work and smarter than they were so that this slipped out. That also brings up the question of what the "soul mate" thing is all about -- is it eternal, regardless of what might happen later, or was it in that moment in time? At that time, Regina wasn't full on world-destroying evil, but she was shallow, petty and vindictive enough that she was refusing to accept Snow's love and was clinging to her desire for revenge against a child so strongly that she rejected the possibility of love. She'd have been the perfect match for a man with no code of honor and no direction who'd steal a horse he didn't need from a family that relied upon it to live. But once he changed, was he still her soulmate, or was (as it appears) that change so superficial that he lost it once he lost Marian, so he and Regina really were made for each other?

And it makes you wonder what would have happened if she had approached him at that time. It's been kind of suggested that this would have turned her away from her evil path if she'd accepted love, but if he was the guy with no code and she was the person running away from the husband she married in a quest for power and vengeance, would they have gone evil together? Or maybe just low-level badness rather than world-destroying evil? She might not have become the Evil Queen, but he might not have become anything resembling a hero.

Camera One · November 11, 2014

Tinkerbelle got it wrong... it wasn't soulmate, it was cellmate.

stealinghome · November 11, 2014

It was an odd line for sure. The delivery of it seemed a bit snide and whatnot. But then when they were in front of the Sheriff's Office, he was protecting her from the falling lamp post.

I too thought the delivery of the line to Belle was a little cutting, but it's not unheard of for couples to be snarky at each other about things they're not going to break up over.

My fear is that the writers had Belle use the dagger in part so that when Rumpel's dagger deception is revealed, Belle, instead of (rightfully) being massively upset and angry and so forth, will consider them "even," or be glad because it means she didn't actually have the dagger and could control him, etc. (Which would be a TOTAL copout, I agree, but SO something this show would do.)

Camera One · November 11, 2014

My fear is that the writers had Belle use the dagger in part so that when Rumpel's dagger deception is revealed, Belle, instead of (rightfully) being massively upset and angry and so forth, will consider them "even," or be glad because it means she didn't actually have the dagger and could control him, etc. (Which would be a TOTAL copout, I agree, but SO something this show would do.)

By the show's logic, Belle is just as bad as Rumple now. She practically became Zelena as she grasped the dagger to get what she wants. She let sweet poor Anna fall to her death, not unlike Cora throwing Johanna off the clocktower. She also lies, not unlike the evil Snow White and Eva. For shame!!!!!

Edited November 11, 2014 by Camera One

Rumsy4 · November 11, 2014

She probably has a black spot in her heart right now.

Worsel · November 12, 2014

I think the writers are trying to make Belle imperfect, with the potential for darkness. She has said previously that she loved all of him, even the darkness. So I initially thought that having her use the dagger would make her more of a match for Rumple, maybe the relationship (in its own sick dysfunctional way) could survive since they would be on a more equal footing with regard to evil deeds. It would certainly make her character more complex and more interesting in my opinion.

But I think his remark about "how can I turn down the pleas of my beloved wife" was sarcastic and reflects his anger over her betrayal. He was betrayed by Milah and Cora after trusting them with his affection. And of course he hated being controlled by Zelena. With his history it won't take much for him to feel hurt and to distrust Belle. I think he understands that she made a wrong choice (something she has accused him of doing), and he still loves her (although it does not overcome his addiction to power and his desire to free himself from the dagger control), but I don't think he can trust her now. I think now he will be able to more easily justify his dishonesty to her and feel less guilt over lying about the dagger.

Will the marriage survive? I suspect it will only if Belle is willing to keep forgiving Rumple and continues to believe he can be a "better" man, despite the fact he will never change. I don't see Rumple giving up his power just to keep his relationship with Belle. He gave her up once and he can do it again. Just goes to show that the power of true love is not necessarily enough to overcome addiction or personality quirks.

Curio · November 12, 2014

I've been thinking more about the Snow/Emma scenes from the last episode, and I think I might finally understand why Snow is acting the way she is. Personally, I thought Snow's scolding of Emma was completely out of line, but I think she's struggling with being a mom for both a newborn baby and an adult. Being a mom for a brand new baby is exhausting, but it's clear her newborn-mothering style is rubbing off on Emma. The way Snow gasped "Emma" after both Emma's magic wardrobe comment and the lamp post incident was spoken like how a mother would yell at her toddler because they were drawing on the walls. For some reason, Snow can't easily switch from being a baby-parent to an adult-parent. Similar to how teenagers berate their parents to stop treating them like children, Snow is having a really difficult time with transitioning between the two completely opposite parenting styles. It's like she can't figure out how to treat Emma - one episode she treats her like a high schooler getting ready for prom, the next episode she's yelling at her like she spilled Spaghettios on the floor.

It's ironic because Snow was the one who desperately wanted the new baby - not David. So to watch David get along with Emma so effortlessly and balance the perfect line between being a father and a friend, it's sad to see Snow struggling so much with how to be either a good friend or a mother to Emma right now. And since Snow refuses to let go of Neal or give 50/50 duties to Charming, that just gives him even more time to spend with Emma and become closer to her.

I don't know if the writers are this subtle, but Snow might be slowly realizing Emma and Charming have the closer relationship now, too. There could be some jealousy brewing because she knows she used to be the closest person to Emma in Season 1, but circumstances have happened along the way and now she's watching David and Hook develop closer bonds with Emma. To make herself feel better, Snow might subconsciously be making Neal "her" child while David keeps Emma. A similar situation happened in my family - when my sister made it clear she was "Daddy's Girl," my mom made it her mission to convince me that I should be "Mommy's Girl."

Does any of this make Snow's recent behavior more acceptable? No. But if I think about it this way, it helps me get through her scenes easier.

BoPeeps · November 12, 2014

(Only Rumple is permitted to be a sarcastic asshole when he feels his *trust* has been abused all the while he has been a lying scum, doncha know?)

That comment was dripping snark and as mean as they come, but of course it appeared to go right over Belle's (but not Hook's) head. I have a feeling that along with magic having a price, innocently putting Rumple in a situation where he truly is out of control and has to pretend he has character will have a price for Belle as well. She controlled him without the actual power of anything but his wretched deceit hanging over their heads.

YaddaYadda · November 12, 2014

Rumple's behavior is going over everyone's heads. I guess the reason Hook is very aware is because they're stacking the deck against him but it makes Belle look so very stupid, someone who has no clue or refuses to believe her hubby is a total psycho.

KAOS Agent · November 12, 2014

The guy murdered his first wife in cold blood. No one should be surprised at what Rumpel is willing to do. I think he'd throw Belle in the hat if that was what was required to unlock its power.

KingOfHearts · November 12, 2014

Rumple's behavior is going over everyone's heads. I guess the reason Hook is very aware is because they're stacking the deck against him but it makes Belle look so very stupid, someone who has no clue or refuses to believe her hubby is a total psycho.

And yet Hook is just as stupid for taking advantage of it by making deals with Rumple, then not telling anyone about what he's doing...

regularlyleaded · November 12, 2014

Personally, I thought Snow's scolding of Emma was completely out of line, but I think she's struggling with being a mom for both a newborn baby and an adult

This is just my two cents, but I don’t think it’s that Snow has mental whiplash because she’s switching between dealing with a newborn and dealing with Emma (her adult daughter). Even before Snowflake was around Snow didn’t know how to deal with Emma. IMO Snow’s relationship with Emma is seriously strained (almost nonexistent now) because Snow is flat out crippled by her own guilt.

I think Snow feels an enormous amount of guilt about losing Emma (which is completely understandable), but instead of just dealing with it head-on she’s almost stuck in this weird stage of denial and she becomes very defensive (almost a case of the lady doth protest too loudly) about most anything related to Emma and the wardrobe situation. Whether it’s Emma’s childhood or just talking about the original curse, Snow avoids acknowledging what happened in the past because it’s how she avoids drowning in her own guilt.

I think there’s a part of Snow that believes that she might have made the wrong choice in sending Emma through the wardrobe. She may sing at the top of her lungs that they were giving Emma her “best chance” to save her and everyone by sending her through the wardrobe, but deep down, now that she’s come face to face with the horrific consequences of that choice, there’s a part of Snow that must wonder “Did I really do the right thing?” Snow’s not completely ignorant how hurt Emma has been by their choice (Emma has said as much even though she’s left out all the gory details) and Snow herself bemoans the loss of raising her (see: All of season 2 & 3A). So I can only imagine that Snow’s choice to send Emma through the wardrobe must haunt her all the time.

(BTW, I’m not judging Snow’s choice because I think her choices were between A) Bad, B) Bad, or C) Bad. I seriously cannot imagine having to make the decision Snow made and then having to live with the outcome. As much as I want to hit Snow really hard 24/7 (sometimes with a shovel) because she’s so dense to the harm she’s (inadvertently) causing Emma, a part of me does sympathize with her. Though, that part of me gets smaller with every episode (after 4x07 it’s rather minuscule) ).

But Snow’s solution of “deny, deny, deny” (which is strikingly similar to Emma’s) is of course deeply flawed. Instead of confronting this head-on and dealing with the fallout, Snow says to herself “Ah-ha! I’ll have another baby which will solve all my unresolved feelings of loss and guilt.” But it doesn’t. Not even during her (second) pregnancy did it help. Even in the lost year flashbacks when the topic of Emma came up briefly in “The Tower” episode, when David mentions losing Emma and questioning his ability to be a good father, Snow’s response was a very defensive “It’s not our fault!” I mean, she got super defensive. To me, when someone gets that defensive about a remark, it’s often a sign that you’ve hit upon a kernel of truth. And we see Snow repeat this level of defensiveness when Emma remarks in 4x07 in the “Mommy & Me” club scene about “First time mother???” and (paraphrasing) “No, it’s okay. You kind of are a first time mother. I mean, your only other experience with a baby is shoving them through a wardrobe, lolz.” While Emma is making these comments to try and play off like none of this hurts her and to not hurt Snow's feelings, Snow’s attitude is very defensive and scolding (though I think a part of Snow thought she was being reassuring…which it wasn’t). And while that defensive attitude is a way for Snow to cope with her guilt, the huge problem is that it makes Emma feel that her insecurities are ridiculous and that they don’t matter.

Because of traumatic life experiences, Emma has to, without a shadow of doubt, completely trust a person before she'll open up with them. She has to believe that they won’t hurt her or be dismissive, judging or condescending (and that they won't betray her). But, right now, everything that Emma gets from Snow (again, I believe this is unintentional on Snow’s part) is the opposite of that. (It also doesn’t help that Emma knows that sharing any of her insecurities (or anything about her past) will only hurt Snow’s feelings so she keeps it all to herself.) Snow is dismissive of Emma’s feelings and that only exacerbates Emma’s own extensive emotional issues. When Snow tells Emma with a scolding tone (paraphrasing) “Emma! Well, of course I’m not a first time mother!” to Emma that says everything she feels is wrong. But it’s not wrong.

It’s natural for Emma to feel insecure. After 28 years of being unloved, alone and being used and abused, and now finally finding a family, but a family where her only role (most the time) is to be a Savior to the kingdom, these insecurities are going to gnaw at her. And the only way to deal with these insecurities is to acknowledge them and give them voice. But when Emma is only met with a dismissive attitude, that leaves her no outlet to actually voice her insecurites, and so they fester. Just because Snow doesn’t want to talk about any of it in hopes that it will all go away does not mean that Emma's feelings of insecurity will also magically evaporate. Rationally, Emma may know better (that her parents love her (even though they've never said it (well they said it once...indirectly) and that they aren't just using her as a means to an end), but emotions and insecurities aren’t rational things, especially those that are formed when you're a child and that Emma’s been carrying around all her life (because nothing and no one in her life has made her feel otherwise).

Basically I just think these two knuckleheads (Snow and Emma) need to sit down and talk this out but they’re both too busy pretending that none of this shit hurts either of them. Emma doesn’t say anything because she doesn’t want to hurt Snow’s feelings and because Snow’s attitude makes her feel like her emotions aren’t valid. And Snow doesn’t say anything because she believes that if she just focuses all her attention and energy on the new baby all these unresolved emotional issues will disappear on their own.

IMO, while Emma and Charming are of similar temper and humor, Snow and Emma are disturbingly similar in how they cope with their emotions and this is why they can’t seem to click right now. Snow is sitting there going “No, I’m great! See, I had this other baby and it’s everything I wanted! My problem is fixed. Look how cute my baby is. Baby, baby, baby! Let’s sing ‘The Good-bye Song’ again! *if I sing loud enough no one will hear that I’m dying on the inside*”. And meanwhile, Emma is sitting there saying “I’m good too. I have no hurt feelings about any of this. Nothing that’s happened in my life would make me think that I’m just a means to an end for these people and have been wrongly used in all of this. That they seem to only call upon me when they need "The Savior" is just coincidence. Now that I know why I was sent away I feel soooo much better about the 28 years I spent unwanted, unloved, and utterly alone. It’s all even more worth it when I see how happy my parents are with another child (that they didn’t send through a wardrobe and instead came and dragged me out of a happy, dream like life so I could save him and them, again) and even more so when I see that he will grow up with all the love and attention that I was deprived of…because I had to save everyone. Yes, I’m just fiiiiiiine *everything hurts and I want to die* I’m all good.”

ETA: Sorry about the lengthy post. I have a lot of thoughts on this topic. (Perhaps some feelings as well) ;)

Edited November 12, 2014 by regularlyleaded

KAOS Agent · November 12, 2014

Emma is the living embodiment of all of Snow's failures as a parent and she can't deal with it. Looking at Emma just makes her all the more determined to not screw up with Snowflake and to give him everything in the world. Snow's choices, good or bad, right or wrong, many made before Emma was even a gleam in her daddy's eye, are what led to the destruction of Emma's childhood. Let's not talk about those decisions. She's got a new baby now and can start all over.

I've often thought that Snow is dismissive of Emma's feelings. Some of that comes from her lack of understanding that Emma fronts very, very well and she really can't see the hurt behind it all. There's also a ton of denial going on because the guilt would be unbearable if she faced the fact that her choices meant her baby had gone hungry and grown up feeling hopeless, worthless and unlovable. Snow would rather believe that Emma's negative attitude leads to exaggeration and it really wasn't that bad. There's also an issue of the two having a completely different mindset about life in general. However, her defensiveness when Emma shows even the tiniest bit of emotion about things does not help at all. Just as Snow shouldn't have to tiptoe around the issue, Emma shouldn't either. It's just that Emma is the one who ends up being the most hurt when Snow reacts poorly to things because Emma doesn't have a lifetime of love and trust to believe in. All she's ever known are people who use her and dump her when she does something wrong or isn't enough for them. When Snow snaps or gets defensive, Emma's immediate internal reaction is the fear of rejection and abandonment, so she shuts up and doesn't talk about it because obviously it upsets her mother and she might not love Emma if she's not perfect. It's hard to blame Snow for it because she doesn't even understand how hurtful it is. She's just having a natural reaction. It certainly doesn't mean that she doesn't love Emma and she doesn't expect or think that Emma would take it that way.

Edited November 12, 2014 by KAOS Agent

FurryFury · November 12, 2014

Personally, I'm thinking we're overthinking all this. It's clear Adam and Eddy simply wanted Emma to be seriously tempted by the Snow Queen's manipulations (and construct an awkward metaphor between her, Emma and Elsa), but Emma has a lot of healthy and semi-healthy connections with other people, and her control over magic has never been a big factor in her life (unlike Elsa, for whom it's the basis of her character). Instead of trying to build this issue up slowly and carefully throughout at least 5 episodes or so, they do it clumsily and hastily, in the only way they can - by rehashing Emma's parental issues and making Snow act like an idiot. I don't believe Snow's behavior was in-character - but they don't really care about Snow (it's been obvious for years) and don't have a clear understanding of her character in their minds. Thus, she is once again reduced to a plot device - in this case, the one they need to push Emma over the edge.

TL, DR: I consider Snow's actions contrived and out-of-character and don't see any point in trying to understand her, because the authors clearly don't.

KAOS Agent · November 12, 2014

Of course it was contrived. Not sure that it was entirely out of character though. Those two have had a strained relationship since the curse broke basically and Snow has been ridiculously overprotective of Snowflake as well as defensive about her choices with regards to Emma, so it didn't come out of nowhere.

There was also a bit of concern from her parents about Emma learning magic back in Neverland. And Neal gave Emma the side eye after she saved him from Pan's Shadow, so there have been a few blink and you'll miss them moments of distrust by Emma's loved ones of her magic. It does lend itself to the idea that they are distrustful of her magic until they need it to fix things for them. Has anyone other than Hook encouraged Emma to learn and use her magic because it's a part of her rather than because it can help them?

Edited November 12, 2014 by KAOS Agent

regularlyleaded · November 12, 2014

Personally, I'm thinking we're overthinking all this. It's clear Adam and Eddy simply wanted Emma to be seriously tempted by the Snow Queen's manipulations (and construct an awkward metaphor between her, Emma and Elsa), but Emma has a lot of healthy and semi-healthy connections with other people, and her control over magic has never been a big factor in her life (unlike Elsa, for whom it's the basis of her character). Instead of trying to build this issue up slowly and carefully throughout at least 5 episodes or so, they do it clumsily and hastily, in the only way they can - by rehashing Emma's parental issues and making Snow act like an idiot.

[...]

I consider Snow's actions contrived and out-of-character and don't see any point in trying to understand her, because the authors clearly don't.

Just let me have this one, FurryFury. I don't think it's all out of the blue and it has been built upon in a few episodes (more if we include some things that have happened in s3) though in rather fractured way, but just let me pretend that this is all well developed, wholly uncontrived character development that's going to lead to something in 4x08 (or down the road).

I don't care about Belle, Regina, Robin, Henry, Rumbelle or OutlawQueen. I don't care about Snowflake, Operation Mongoose or where Anna's been stashed. I don't give a flying fruit newton about secondary characters, tertiary characters, if Olaf The Snowman is going to appear, or how many more Frozen references they can cram into this season. I've given up on any true world-building or the "rules of magic" ever making sense (let alone existing). And come sunday's episode 4x08, my bubble that 4x07's events between Emma and Snow will lead to an actual meaningful conversation between them is sure to burst. But you see, right now, this little bit of the show where Emma gets to actually have an emotional response about her insecurities concerning her parents and they have to deal with it is one of the few things I have left to enjoy and discuss about this show (breadcrumbs that they are). So won't you please, just let me have this one? ;)

Edited November 12, 2014 by regularlyleaded

Emma · November 12, 2014

I go back and forth several times a day on what I want when it comes to the Emma-Snow relationship.

On one hand, I want the writers to fix the mess they made. I shouldn't be surprised but they took one of the best things about this show and absolutely demolished it.

On the other hand, I want Emma to stay as far away as possible from Snow. Let Snow have her BDO. Emma can keep working side by side with Charming and build on her relationship with Hook.

Dani-Ellie · November 12, 2014

Basically I just think these two knuckleheads (Snow and Emma) need to sit down and talk this out but they’re both too busy pretending that none of this shit hurts either of them. Emma doesn’t say anything because she doesn’t want to hurt Snow’s feelings and because Snow’s attitude makes her feel like her emotions aren’t valid. And Snow doesn’t say anything because she believes that if she just focuses all her attention and energy on the new baby all these unresolved emotional issues will disappear on their own.

This. I will admit that I am harsher on Snow than I am on Emma, for a couple of different reasons but mostly because like it or not, Snow, you're the parent here.

Snow needs to get her shit together, not just for Emma but for baby Snowflake as well. Because if she doesn't, what the hell happens six or seven years down the road when Snowflake begins to feel like he has to be everything for his parents that his sister couldn't? Snow framed her desire for a second child as a chance to do everything with that child that she missed with Emma. If she doesn't change her thinking on that, it could cause so very many problems, not just in her relationship with her grown child but also in the development of her growing child. I don't think second children should be second chances, and framing her desire for a child as a do-over is so incredibly unhealthy for everyone involved.

Plus, for all Emma likes to keep things bottled up, I have seen, more than once, her trying to reach out and Snow shutting her down. I don't give a shit if it's going to be painful for Snow to talk about. It's going to be painful for Emma, too, but she's trying. And all Snow is doing by constantly shutting her down every time she tries to open up to her is telling her, "Your feelings and experiences are not welcome here."

Do I believe she's meaning to do this? No, of course not. But she now has two children who need her to be a mother. They need her to be a support system. They need her to be a judgment free zone. They need her to listen. I'm sure I said things to my mother as I was growing up that hurt, but I always knew I could say them, even if it would be painful for the both of us. Right now, I don't think Emma has that (Snowflake is obviously too young to need it ;)), and it makes me both sad and angry.

Curio · November 12, 2014

Sorry about the lengthy post. I have a lot of thoughts on this topic. (Perhaps some feelings as well) ;)

Lengthy posts are awesome! Especially when they're well-thought-out and make me think about a topic in a different light. I was narrowly trying to justify Snow's out-of-character behavior in 4.07, but I think you're absolutely right: Snow's guilt is the huge overarching issue here.

Now part of me wishes that instead of the completely random episode where Emma desperately begs Regina to be her friend (which they haven't really even brought up again...WTF?), why couldn't the writers have made an episode about Emma and Snow desperately trying to fix their relationship? See, writers? Now that's a realistic relationship where I can totally buy Emma taking verbal abuse from one party (in 4.07, it was Snow, even though she immediately felt bad about it), but still wanting to be friends with that person.

Has anyone other than Hook encouraged Emma to learn and use her magic because it's a part of her rather than because it can help them?

Regina mentioned to Emma how much potential she was wasting during the bridge collapse training, I guess. But that was more coming from a place of jealousy because Emma could easily do the magical things Regina trained years and years for.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Curio

YaddaYadda · November 12, 2014

She has things in common with her other relationships. David and Emma can bond over work, for example. Emma and Mary Margaret don't have that bond or common interest.

Actually, I think Emma and Snow have something to bond over. They are both mothers who gave up their children and have regrets about it even if they keep going with the whole mantra, I did it to give my child their best chance which is completely fair. These children will never be completely theirs either. Emma has to share her son with Regina. And Emma will never be Snow's completely because she's all grown up and Snow has no idea how to relate to her.

But furthermore regarding Snow, I think the person she loves the most is David. In Neverland, MM decided that she would build a hut and stay with David. Emma would have lost both parents again. When they were recasting the curse, David decided to sacrifice his life to save his son, and then MM decided that they should split her heart even though Regina wasn't sure it could be done, would not have consequences and MM did that while she was pregnant and the whole idea of recasting the curse was so Do Over could be saved by his sister.

Snow will always choose David over Emma. That's what made the whole lamp post incident especially painful.. First, the person who was standing under it was not David, it was Hook who was all too focused on Emma to notice the thing was coming down on him. David pushed him out of the way and got injured instead, so it's not like Emma was aiming to hurt Hook, let alone her father.

I find it scary this might not be addressed at all.

KingOfHearts · November 12, 2014

Snow's reactions are possible, but I don't think they were written to be organic. They're in the story to push Emma away and get the Snow Queen's plan to work. Like others have said, it was a contrivance necessary to the plot. There wasn't any lead-up to suggest that Snow was fearful of Emma's magic until this episode. While I can understand her fear, the way it was executed in her tone and facial expressions was overdone purposely to drive the story forward quicker.

Emma · November 12, 2014

I will admit that I am harsher on Snow than I am on Emma, for a couple of different reasons but mostly because like it or not, Snow, you're the parent here.

Same here. I really want to like Snow again but the writers are doing her no favors. It's been a train wreck since Echo Cave.

What do Emma, Snow, and Charming even talk about?

Romance aside, one of the reasons I love Hook for Emma is that he asks the questions. Maybe Emma shuts him down (wouldn't you like to know) or she lets you handle something very precious (keepsake box).

Here's someone who wants to know Emma because she's Emma. Not because she's the Savior or whatever else she can do for you. And he wants to know the darker parts. Not just the pretty ones. Hopefully one day she'll turn the table on him and want to know his highest and lowest moments too. But that's another conversation.

Emma is not a forthcoming person. You want to know her then you're going to have to ask. You have to push all the buttons until you find the right one. But got damn Snowing ask things about your daughter. Or if you don't want to know some of those things check your judgment (looking at you Snow) at the door.

Dani-Ellie · November 12, 2014

While I can understand her fear, the way it was executed in her tone and facial expressions was overdone purposely to drive the story forward quicker.

Here's my thing, though. I completely agree that Snow's reactions were overwritten and possibly overdirected/overplayed (since I don't know what the stage direction was in the script). Regardless, what plays out onscreen is what plays out onscreen, whether or not I think it makes any sense. It's the characterization we're being given, whether I like it or not. And honestly, I've felt this building since the Echo Cave, so I don't exactly think it's coming out of nowhere.

I hate to rehash Neverland, but seriously, Snow was perfectly willing to let Emma go back to Storybrooke without both her parents just days after telling her it was her job to help her not feel like an orphan anymore. Hate to tell you, Snow, but your daughter can't exactly not feel like an orphan anymore when her parents are trapped in a realm she can't easily visit. More than once, Snow told Emma to go without them if they had to, which is a complete 180 from her "We go home together. That is the only way" stance from the Enchanted Forest. So, from Emma's perspective, what the hell changed between the Enchanted Forest and Neverland? And all this is coming off the heels of the Echo Cave, which was never addressed between Snow and Emma onscreen, so it's hard to tell where the characters' heads are at.

Emma tries to explain how New York was home to her and Henry. Snow snaps at her, "That's because you forgot about us." As if it was something Emma chose while she was one of the ones giving Emma the courage to go in the first place.

Whether I like it or not, being dismissive of Emma and shutting her down when she tries to open up has become a pattern of behavior for Snow, so the fact that it's seemingly coming to a head? Yes. Please. I'm sitting here all, "Finally." I'm hoping this is the catalyst to fixing it because I don't see how in the hell they can twist this so it's Emma's fault the way they did before. Firstly, if the roadblock was completely Emma before, that roadblock was removed through the trip to the past. By the show's own logic, it's Snow's turn to step up ... and, imo, she's completely blowing it. Secondly, they showed a mother backing away from her own daughter in fear, unable to look her in the eye, and yelling at her. As far as I'm concerned, and it seems to me this is how they're playing it, that's on Snow.

This relationship was once the heart of this show for me and I really would like it to be again. I don't like being mad at Snow, I really don't. But as far as I'm concerned, she needs to put on her big girl pants and step up for her children ... both of them.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

YaddaYadda · November 12, 2014

And honestly, I've felt this building since the Echo Cave, so I don't exactly think it's coming out of nowhere.

No, it's not out of nowhere that's for sure. I mean there were always little things that grated on my nerves between Emma and Snow, little things said here and there or a look. I just didn't think it would escalate that way. Does Emma keep calling Mary Margaret "mom" after what happened? And really, does the show just brush it off by having them hug and kiss and be like see, it's all better. That's what worries me.

That being said, I think the relationship can become a close enough one between mother and daughter, but I don't see them becoming as close as David and Emma are. I think the writing is really going for the whole Daddy's little girl vs mommy's boy, that's at least what it seems to be to me.

stealinghome · November 12, 2014

My problem with the Snow/Emma relationship, honestly, is that the writing just isn't willing to address the big old elephant in the room, which is that Emma growing up without parents is Regina and Rumpel's fault. At this point, the angst on both sides just seems tired to me, and a little bit trite, because while I can buy that Snow and Emma have issues with each other, I can't buy that they would be so overwhelmingly focused on each other to the exclusion of the other people who are actually 100% responsible for the situation resulting in Emma growing up alone. So every time Emma gets huffy about being put in the wardrobe, I find myself thinking "what, you'd rather have been slaughtered as a baby or permanently live life as a one-hour-old infant? Excellent reasoning skills there, Emma, I'm glad Charming knows he almost died to save your life and you appreciate it sooo much"; every time Snow feels massively guilty and yet then goes to play Regina Cheerleader 1A, I get incredible mental whiplash and just want to throttle her and scream "WHO HAS BRAINWASHED YOU???"

And yes, part of it is because these issues should have been dealt with in S2, not S4, so it feels like they've been stewing forever. But part of it is that I find half of their feelings (or lack thereof) so damn inorganic that it's kind of hard for me to take the other part of it seriously, too.

Shanna Marie · November 12, 2014

I find myself thinking "what, you'd rather have been slaughtered as a baby or permanently live life as a one-hour-old infant? Excellent reasoning skills there, Emma, I'm glad Charming knows he almost died to save your life and you appreciate it sooo much"

And probably as an orphan, anyway, because there was no way Regina was going to let Mary Margaret raise her own baby.

But while it might help things all around if they were allowed to actually be mad at the people responsible instead of trying to be friends with them, I don't think it would solve all the issues between Emma and Snow. Regardless of who was responsible for what happened, the fact remains that they're in pain and Snow is currently behaving in a way that keeps from addressing Emma's pain. All along, she's been in denial about what Emma went through. Whenever the subject comes up, she practically sticks her fingers in her ears and sings at the top of her lungs (my strategy for dealing with Outlaw Queen scenes). I can understand that because what mother would want to know the gory details of the bad things that happened to her daughter? But the fact remains that these things did happen and they're part of who Emma is now. It's impossible to understand Emma and to empathize with her and be sensitive to her needs without knowing and considering the things in her life that led to this point. I think it's also impossible to have a real relationship with her without taking these things into account, and it's especially impossible to have a mother/daughter relationship in which the mother is not a safe place for the daughter to be able to openly admit to the pain in her life and seek comfort. Emma's no child anymore, but what happened in this recent episode is the equivalent of a child telling a mother about something bad that happened and the mother scolding her for admitting that something was wrong because it hurts the mother too much to consider that something bad might have happened to her child. Is that child going to learn to trust the mother or to share pain and work through it? No matter how much healing Emma might get through her easy rapport with David or from Hook's unconditional acceptance, she's not going to be able to have a relationship with Snow while Snow is denying a huge portion of Emma's life because it makes her uncomfortable to think about it.

Curio · November 12, 2014

My problem with the Snow/Emma relationship, honestly, is that the writing just isn't willing to address the big old elephant in the room, which is that Emma growing up without parents is Regina and Rumpel's fault.

Shhhh...if the show never brings it up, the problem doesn't exist!

So every time Emma gets huffy about being put in the wardrobe, I find myself thinking "what, you'd rather have been slaughtered as a baby or permanently live life as a one-hour-old infant? Excellent reasoning skills there, Emma, I'm glad Charming knows he almost died to save your life and you appreciate it sooo much"

It's like the writers think that if they write something a certain way enough times, it will erase what they established in the past. It's annoying how the new mantra is "Snow and Charming actually had a choice, they could have kept Emma," even though it's a total lie. If they had kept her, she would have either died an infant or would have gotten transported to Storybrooke where she would have stayed an infant forever and would have never broken the curse. Sorry, there's no "choice" there. Snow and Charming basically had one good option at that time. But these are the same writers who keep telling us Neal apparently had no choice than to leave Emma in jail, so...

KingOfHearts · November 12, 2014

My problem with the Snow/Emma relationship, honestly, is that the writing just isn't willing to address the big old elephant in the room, which is that Emma growing up without parents is Regina and Rumpel's fault.

That, and the fact Snow only wants Emma for her Savior status. I'm actually glad the Snow Queen finally brought the issue to the screen. We never see Snow and Emma have a scene together that has nothing to do with the Problem of the Day. They haven't had a casual conversation together since... S1? 2A maybe? I thought the MM/Emma moments in the loft were some of the best scenes of the show. But now it's as if Snow has given up on Emma completely, like she doesn't care to know her any better. She's got a BDO, but Emma is still her daughter no matter what.

The writing will probably deal with this issue by saying "But Snow LOVES Emma! You have to believe us with this heartfelt apology she gives!"

Edited November 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

Emma · November 12, 2014

Emma asked in season 2 which curse is worse?

She might as well have been killed as an infant for all the attention Snow pays her.

Mari · November 12, 2014

We never see Snow and Emma have a scene together that has nothing to do with the Problem of the Day. They haven't had a casual conversation together since... S1? 2A maybe? I thought the MM/Emma moments in the loft were some of the best scenes of the show. . . .

The writing will probably deal with this issue by saying "But Snow LOVES Emma! You have to believe us with this heartfelt apology she gives!"

The last "just talking" conversation I remember is actually in the Echo Cave episode; Snow and Emma are talking about Emma kissing Hook, and it was completely cross-purposes.

Snow's conversation--Why? Neal will forgive you/understand. It was about trying to help Emma deal with Neal and possible betrayal of her relationship with him.

Emma's conversation--I kissed Hook. He's attractive and I'm not sure how I feel about him. What does this have to do with Neal?

I guess I count that as a regular conversation, simply because it wasn't about the villain of the day, and was mostly a friend/family sounding board thing.

After that was the Echo Cave scene, where Snow had to admit she didn't have the relationship with her child she wanted, and then listened to Emma basically admit that Snow was wrong even about how much she thought she understood about Emma.

And then, Snow stopped trying.

And as for the apology we're hoping to get from Snow? I actually don't know we will--the show has to actually acknowledge that Snow's a problem in the relationship for it to change, and they're really good at blaming Emma.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Mari

KingOfHearts · November 12, 2014

The last "just talking" conversation I remember is actually in the Echo Cave episode; Snow and Emma are talking about Emma kissing Hook, and it was completely cross-purposes.

I forgot about that part. You really can't blame me for blocking the Echo Cave stuff out of my mind. :P

And as for the apology we're hoping to get from Snow? I actually don't know we will--the show has to actually acknowledge that Snow's a problem in the relationship for it to change, and they're really good at blaming Emma.

Well, she did admit to being wrong to David. (Even if she blamed him too... errrrg) I think she'll do everything she can to get Emma to come back, and maybe apologize for being snippy, but it's all part of a bigger issue that the show has no interest in solving. Even if she does apologize, it's only to get their Savior back and to assuage her guilt. The real problems will still lie.

Edited November 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

KAOS Agent · November 12, 2014

Snow and David did have choices. They choose to let Regina go free rather than execute or lock her up, they choose to just sit around and wait for the wardrobe rather than fight or look for another way. By the end, it was put the baby in the wardrobe or she dies, but prior to that they had better choices. There are hats and slippers and beans and doors and monkeys and dragons and shadows and mermaids. Basically, there were all kinds of ways to escape the curse besides the wardrobe. Hell, Hook outran it on his ship. Emma knows that some of these exist, so is it that weird if she isn't questioning being sacrificed for the greater good?

Then you have the fact that everyone was frozen in time. Emma suffered greatly over this period and remembers that pain. Everyone else suffered, but it hasn't truly affected their lives permanently. They were all able to pick up where they'd left off and begin their lives again. Even Snowing have done that. Emma can't do that because the suffering was her life. It's who she is. There's no happily ever after for her to return to. She doesn't really know these people and even though this is her world, she's still the outsider, still the orphan looking in.

Emma is the one whose life has been most destroyed by the curse (excluding those who died). She now knows that she was preyed upon as a child by a villain who wanted her for her Saviour status, Neal left her resulting in her giving up Henry because of her Saviour status, her parents cast another curse and pulled her out of her happy normal life not to get back to her, but because of her Saviour status. That is seriously messed up.

I was thinking just how hard it must be for Emma not to have a single normal person to talk to. No one who'll really understand pop culture references or the normal life experiences we tend to share. Her boyfriend is a couple hundred year old pirate, her mother is a fairy tale princess, her father was a shepherd. That's rather limiting when trying to find common ground to explain her life in modern America. Would they even understand what it means that a 13/14 year old kid ran away and was living on the streets? That's not living in some Medieval fairy tale forest, but the mean streets of NYC where someone will slit your throat if they want your shoes. Do they understand how impressive it is that Emma, a convicted felon and high school drop out, made something of herself all on her own?

The social/cultural barrier is just as big of a problem as the emotional one. Hook at least acknowledges it. Tells her he wants to learn and asks questions, Snow just assumes she knows it all and doesn't even bother. She's been judgmental about Emma's sexual morals. Even worse, she's told Emma her experiences in foster care don't match with Snow's real world curse download and so she must be exaggerating or something. Last year, they sent Emma back in time so that she could better understand her parents and it helped, but Snow has never truly been exposed to Emma's world and it's yet another disconnect in the relationship.

stealinghome · November 12, 2014

the show has to actually acknowledge that Snow's a problem in the relationship for it to change, and they're really good at blaming Emma.

I think I said this on the episode thread, but imo the show went out of its way to hang flashing neon signs over Snow saying "I AM WRONG AND A BAD MOM RIGHT NOW!" in 4x07. And then they had her admit she/they failed in the episode. So I actually do think, at least in this instance, the show is acknowledging that Snow is a problem and needs to fix herself (ironically, it's about the stuff I personally find least problematic about Snow right now, but I'll take what I can get).

I was thinking just how hard it must be for Emma not to have a single normal person to talk to. No one who'll really understand pop culture references or the normal life experiences we tend to share.

But by the "We Are Both" logic, all the Storybrookians (except for Hook, Aurora, and Robin) have the "normal person" download, too. They should understand Emma's pop culture references (and do--David laughed at Emma's Lion King joke in 3x21) and should understand the normal life experiences someone from our world has.

I totally agree that Snow's inability to get where Emma's coming from is a major problem, but I can't fault cultural alienation for it, nor can I really agree that Emma has absolutely no common ground with the Enchanted Forest people. I understand why she would feel alienated, of course, but there should be enough of a common ground there to facilitate some bonding.

KingOfHearts · November 12, 2014

I think I said this on the episode thread, but imo the show went out of its way to hang flashing neon signs over Snow saying "I AM WRONG AND A BAD MOM RIGHT NOW!" in 4x07. And then they had her admit she/they failed in the episode. So I actually do think, at least in this instance, the show is acknowledging that Snow is a problem and needs to fix herself (ironically, it's about the stuff I personally find least problematic about Snow right now, but I'll take what I can get).

Yeah. Thank God the character needs just so happened to fit the plot in this episode. The show also hinted this in 4x03 (?) when Archie stopped Snow outside her car. I hope these issues get worked on this season, but you never know.

But by the "We Are Both" logic, all the Storybrookians (except for Hook, Aurora, and Robin) have the "normal person" download, too. They should understand Emma's pop culture references (and do--David laughed at Emma's Lion King joke in 3x21) and should understand the normal life experiences someone from our world has.

That's a big beef I have - the show pretty much erased everything that happened in S1. From Graham to August to Regina's terror to MM/Emma to the Kathryn stuff to Emma's belief. The show has totally forgotten about the cursed personalities, and with that there's a level of complexity and relevance to the audience missing. You can't tell me Snow doesn't know how to connect with Emma, because she did all through S1. Granted she wasn't her mother and the dynamic was totally different, but that friendship hasn't been addressed.

Edited November 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

KAOS Agent · November 12, 2014

But by the "We Are Both" logic, all the Storybrookians (except for Hook, Aurora, and Robin) have the "normal person" download, too. They should understand Emma's pop culture references (and do--David laughed at Emma's Lion King joke in 3x21) and should understand the normal life experiences someone from our world has.

I would disagree with this. They have gone out of their way to describe Emma's experiences with Henry as "magical nonsense" which also applies to the cursed personas. Not to mention, these people were given a 1983 world download. Their world experiences would not match Emma's anyway. And their continued use of very old technology (Polaroids, Betamax, etc) only reinforces this notion that these people don't understand the real world. But my real issue in terms of them understanding the real world is that they can't relate to Emma. They've never been to a ballgame or flown on an airplane or gone to elementary school, so there aren't shared experiences and everyone would know that they are false if they tried to pretend. Not to mention, none of the people in Storybrooke could really remember much detail about anything other than whatever fit their current situation, so it was presented even in Season 1 as a superficial cover story for these people. That's why it has to be so isolating for Emma in any of her relationships.

regularlyleaded · November 12, 2014

My problem with the Snow/Emma relationship, honestly, is that the writing just isn't willing to address the big old elephant in the room, which is that Emma growing up without parents is Regina and Rumpel's fault. At this point, the angst on both sides just seems tired to me, and a little bit trite, because while I can buy that Snow and Emma have issues with each other, I can't buy that they would be so overwhelmingly focused on each other to the exclusion of the other people who are actually 100% responsible for the situation resulting in Emma growing up alone.

Just because they're ignoring the big elephant in the room that it was Regina and Rumple's actions that led to the decision to put Emma in the wardrobe, doesn't mean there isn't another huge ass elephant in the room, namely that Snow and Emma aren't addressing their unresolved feelings between them properly, or at all. Snow is bound and determined to avoid feeling more guilt and pain of loss by wrapping herself in denial, sticking her fingers in her ears and singing the Enchanted Forest national anthem at the top of her lungs, and putting all of her attention and energy into another child. Emma is just flat out pushing all her pain and insecurities down, swallowing any hurt and putting on a great game face in an effort not to make waves or hurt Snow's feelings.

The way I look at it, being able to place blame doesn't change the fact that there exists a tremendous amount of guilt and pain between Snow and Emma that needs to be dealt with. Yes, it would be great if someone would just bitch slap Regina for 6 months straight and yell at her for everything she's done (seriously, sign me up for this. Also, a good ole burning at the stake would not be unjustified), but none of that will change the relationship problems between Emma and Snow and the fact that they need to be addressed and dealt with.

So every time Emma gets huffy about being put in the wardrobe, I find myself thinking "what, you'd rather have been slaughtered as a baby or permanently live life as a one-hour-old infant? Excellent reasoning skills there, Emma, I'm glad Charming knows he almost died to save your life and you appreciate it sooo much";

I don't think Emma is ungrateful for Charming's sacrifice (If she even knows. The last page of the book, the one that she tore out of the book and burned, seemed to end with Charming putting her in a wardrobe. Did the book even note that after he put her in the wardrobe he received a near mortal blow from one of Regina's Black Knights? I mean, we know, but that doesn't mean Emma knows). Emma's not an ungrateful screeching harpy. I'm sure her ovaries would explode, along with many in the female audience, as required by Charming's noble and manly display of paternal protectiveness if it weren't for the fact that he's her father ;) But if my memory serves, Emma only vocally questioned their choice to send her through the wardrobe once in "Broken" and she's never really brought it up again. Emma's mentioned it twice if you count her conversation with Snow in "Lady of the Lake", but even there Emma brought it up to say she understood Snow's choice. So it's not like Emma's been a broken record, screeching, on this front. But that also doesn't mean Emma doesn't have some unresolved feelings about their decision to place her in the wardrobe alone, especially considering all that decision cost Emma herself (which is something Snow hasn't really acknowledged).

IMO Emma's issue is not so much why they didn't they just let her be cursed with them, but did they really try to find another option to stay together even if that meant they couldn't save everyone else. Snow and Charming told Emma that putting her in the wardrobe was her best chance and the chance to save everyone. So in Emma's mind, Snow and Charming's reasoning wasn't just about her, it was about saving everyone. And Emma may rationally accept and understand their choice, but nonetheless there's an insecure part of her that wonders if they looked for other options to stay or flee together, or was it because Snow and Charming's feelings of duty as rulers of a kingdom demanded that their choice be one that not only saved her (and in some ways actually used Emma as a sacrifice) but also saved everyone. That's what gnaws at Emma; that her value (to them) may be weighted towards the fact that she's "The Savior" and less that she is their daughter.

(And also, events have transpired that lend themselves to the argument that her parents importance on what's "right" and good for their people (or some cases just Woegina) seems to trump their concern for Emma herself. When the choice is between what's "right"/their own desires or Emma, Emma loses too many times for comfort. And we've seen examples of this since season 2.)

I think I said this on the episode thread, but imo the show went out of its way to hang flashing neon signs over Snow saying "I AM WRONG AND A BAD MOM RIGHT NOW!" in 4x07. And then they had her admit she/they failed in the episode. So I actually do think, at least in this instance, the show is acknowledging that Snow is a problem and needs to fix herself (ironically, it's about the stuff I personally find least problematic about Snow right now, but I'll take what I can get).

That's what's makes it even worse for me. It's great that the writers had Snow realize that cringing in fear of her own daughter and scolding her for something she could not control was bad and not exactly good parenting. Good for Snow for recognizing that she "failed today". But the giant elephant here is that Snow has been failing Emma since mid season 2, never mind today's events. And that's what will probably never be acknowledged. It's irritating (to me) because the writers had the Snow Queen basically bullet point all of Emma's underlying issues with her parents (issues that are not entirely baseless), but chances are that those issues will all be ignored because it seems like their intention was to have Snow make up for it all by simply admitting at the end of 4x07 that " failed today". We'll see what the writers do in 4x08, but if it's anything like their treatment of Echo Cave it'll never be addressed again.

Camera One · November 13, 2014

It's irritating (to me) because the writers had the Snow Queen basically bullet point all of Emma's underlying issues with her parents (issues that are not entirely baseless), but chances are that those issues will all be ignored because it seems like their intention was to have Snow make up for it all by simply admitting at the end of 4x07 that " failed today". We'll see what the writers do in 4x08, but if it's anything like their treatment of Echo Cave it'll never be addressed again.

What I'm wondering is if Adam and Eddy had meant to portray the Snow and Emma relationship throughout 3A/3B/4A as described by those bullet points, or if they are in hindsight using their neglect of the Snow and Emma relationship as reasons why Emma might feel alienated from Snow.

Adam and Eddy were the ones who wrote the Echo Cave scene, and then for the rest of the season they directed the team of writers to waste Snow's screentime through Teatime with Zelena, and Helping-Regina-Feel-Better moments. They built in zero substantial screentime between Snow and Emma after "Lost Girl" and next-to-zero dialogue on Snow's end describing her actual feelings or thoughts on the relationship after the abrupt Echo Cave confession. To me, that's ignoring the characters and not character development. If they are seriously expecting us to believe that Snow (and Charming) only thinks about Emma when they need to use her to save their lives (as it appeared to be in 3B), then I'm sorry but I don't buy it at all since it's completely inconsistent with their personalities as portrayed in S1/S2.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Camera One

regularlyleaded · November 13, 2014

What I'm wondering is if Adam and Eddy had meant to portray the Snow and Emma relationship throughout 3A/3B/4A as described by those bullet points, or if they are in hindsight using their neglect of the Snow and Emma relationship as reasons why Emma might feel alienated from Snow.

[...]

If they are seriously expecting us to believe that Snow (and Charming) only thinks about Emma when they need to use her to save their lives (as it appeared to be in 3B), then I'm sorry but I don't buy it at all since it's completely inconsistent with their personalities as portrayed in S1/S2.

But is it really inconsistent? ITA that the writing suffers from poor character development and many things between Emma, Snow, and Charming are dealt with in fits and starts so it's hard to track what the writers intended for us to take away, what they just dropped on the floor because they got bored with it, and what they just put off because Plot!Plot!Plot! (and Woegina) took precedence. But with that said, I think it’s easy to make a case that Snow and Charming's behavior in regards to Emma is fairly consistent.

I don’t really see S1 as part of the argument in regards to Snow and Charming's relationship with Emma because they don’t know she’s their daughter in S1. So instead l look at this starting from season 2:

Once Emma broke the curse, Charming and most especially Snow are eager to speak with Emma. Snow pushes Emma to speak with them which results in Emma revealing that “Sure it’s nice that she found them, but none of what she’s learned about why she was sent away suddenly erases an entire lifetime of heartache and loneliness.” Then at the end of “Broken” Snow jumps into a portal after Emma (poor Charming tried) so as to not be separated from Emma. Okay, cool. But once Snow and Emma return from their Team Princess adventures, Charming immediately starts talking about going back to the Enchanted Forest and pushes Snow about it in “Tiny”. Snow is hesitant to leave Emma at first but following The Black Spot on Her Heart affair, Snow suddenly decides that the only way to reclaim who she is/was is to go back to the Enchanted Forest. Snow and Charming ask Emma that she go with them, but it’s pretty clear that they are going with or without her.

Now, I’m not really judging Snow and Charming on that one (too much); I mostly find it odd. It’s great that they are giving Emma the choice and not forcing her to go with them (not that I’m sure how they could force her), but on the other hand this is their child; the baby that they sent through the wardrobe to save her and everyone and that they are perfectly aware has had a rough (if not tragic) life due to having been sent through the wardrobe essentially alone and defenseless. And their reaction after being with her a few months (at most) is to leave her behind???…I’m sincerely baffled by their choice.

Next, the beans get burned so they don’t go back, but they all end up in Neverland to retrieve Henry (Season 3A). Here, upon discovering that Charming is apparently stuck on the island (The Dreamshade Contrivance) Snow chooses to stay with David. Okay, again it’s Snow’s choice and Emma’s not a child. But absolutely no thought is given to Emma neither by Snow or Charming, which as mentioned before here (and on TWoP), is rather telling especially on the heels of Snow’s Echo Cave confession (and IMO a bit callous in the face of “Lost Girl”). Once again, Emma's just not someone who registers on Snow and Charming’s radar. Their relationship with Emma is “unique”, but she’s “not what [snow] wanted”. For all appearances, when push comes to shove Emma’s just not their first choice. (Heh, I could also argue that after Echo Cave she's also not Snow's second choice :P )

Following that we have the lost year (season 3B). For the lost year (and the writers do have some leeway to add to this story in future plot lines) what we have right now is that upon arriving in the Enchanted Forest Snow and Charming actively convince anyone interested in going after Emma that they shouldn’t. That it’s impossible and furthermore that leaving Emma be in The Land Without Magic is Emma’s best shot at happiness. Okay, fine. But what happens next? Well, Zelena pops up, cackles ‘Boo’ at Snow’s womb and they suddenly decide that they need Emma to save them. So they concoct a plan to enact Curse 2.0, and all with zero conversation on how this would impact Emma’s life. Emma’s never mentioned outside of “she can save our unborn baby and us!” ( Emma does get name mentioned in “The Tower”, but otherwise, nada.)

So going by all that, I’d say it’s been a fairly consistent showing on Snow and Charming’s part that Emma isn’t necessary in their lives. While they think it’s nice to have her around, she’s not critical to their happiness and sometimes doesn’t even register on their radars when it comes to making choices that may affect Emma’s life.

Now, some of that may stem from them not being used to having to think of someone else outside of each other. When you have a baby, that child is entirely dependent on the parents, and so naturally it forces a change in mindset where the parents whole world starts revolving around that baby. And Snow and Charming never had that with Emma. So I can kinda fanwank that. But the fact that they only seem to be interested in being an active part of Emma's life when their choice of living place happens to coincide where Emma is, that they would willingly choose to live somewhere else without her and forgo being involved in her life as much as possible (even though they've already missed out on being a part of most of her life), well, I’m gonna use the word “interesting” (or better still, "that's effed up"), but feel free to add your own descriptor.

(Someone else feel free to construct the opposing argument that all of the above is actually totally out of character. I'd consider doing so, but I'm not feeling charitable towards Snowing right now ;) )

Edited November 13, 2014 by regularlyleaded

Dani-Ellie · November 13, 2014

But the fact that they don’t even seem to show be actively interested in staying in her life and that they willingly would choose to live somewhere else without her or being involved in her life as much as possible (even though Emma is a full grown adult) is, well, I’m gonna use the word “interesting”, but feel free to add your own adjective.

This is my hangup.

This is Emma, the child who was stolen from them. For all intents and purposes, Emma was abducted at birth and returned to them 28 years later. I can quite obviously understand how and why they would fumble and flounder in just about all their interactions with each other simply because they don't know each other. Emma has lived close to three decades without them. KAOS Agent did a remarkable job highlighting the differences in their life experiences above, so I won't repeat, but these three people have three decades' worth of catch-up to do.

But they have her back now. They have her back after having her essentially forcibly ripped from them the night she was born. So my thing is ... I would think they would want to be with her. I would think they would want to spend every second with her that they could. Their baby, their little girl, is back. I don't even think the fact that they spent 28 years in magical stasis should matter all that much in this. Their last memory of their little girl is them sobbing as they give her up. Now that they have her back, regardless of what age she is, I would think they would be clinging to her, lest she slip out of their sight again.

So, really, the lack of thought where Emma fits into their plans and the seeming appearance that Emma is not necessary for their happily ever after is absolutely baffling to me.

Camera One · November 13, 2014

I don’t see S1 as part of the argument of Snow and Charming in regards to Emma because they don’t know she’s their daughter in S1. So instead l look at this starting from season 2:

Once Emma broke the curse, Charming and most especially Snow are eager to speak with Emma. Snow pushes Emma to speak with them which results in Emma revealing that “Sure it’s once that she found them, but none of what she’s learned suddenly erases an entire lifetime of heartache and loneliness.” Then at the end of “Broken” Snow jumps into a portal after Emma (poor Charming tried) so as to not be separated from Emma. Okay, cool. But once Snow and Emma return from their Team Princess adventures, Charming immediately starts talking about going back to the Enchanted Forest and pushes Snow about it in “Tiny”. Snow is hesitant to leave Emma at first but following The Black Spot on Her Heart affair, Snow suddenly decides that the only way to reclaim who she is/was is to go back to the Enchanted Forest. Snow and Charming ask Emma that she go with them, but it’s pretty clear that they are gong with or without her.

I was only referring to S1 and S2, so I'll just respond to this part. The reason why I included S1 is because there, we learned the type of people Snow and Charming are. People who feel very strongly about everyone, even strangers, and willing to risk their lives for them. By logical extension, that should apply to their daughter. And if it doesn't, then it needs to be convincing why. How Snow and Charming acted without thinking with the Wraith was consistent with the people they were shown as in the flashbacks.

In S2, that whole Charming wanting to go back to the Enchanted Forest thing without considering Emma already struck me as odd and out of character. I tried to explain it as Charming just assuming that Emma would want to go back, and not being used to making decisions as a family. But really, after being reunited with Emma after 28 years, Snow and Charming would be able to say bye bye and go back to the Enchanted Forest? I cannot believe that. So maybe the problems began in 2B, not 3A. And mostly through neglect because the writers never bothered to deal with it properly.

That whole subplot of the possibility of returning to the Enchanted Forest / Snow wanting a house / etc. got very little screentime. I don't have a very clear idea of how Emma, Charming nor Snow felt about the whole issue since it was hardly dealt with. With so few data points, just like in any scientific study, I cannot make a conclusion about what it really says about the characters.

When they're ignoring a relationship, I personally find it very difficult to draw any conclusions and I usually go with what I know about the characters from the past. An example is Emma and Henry in 4A. We have hardly seen them spend any time together, but I cannot assume that Emma cares about Henry less, or is so involved with Hook and hung up on her issues that she's neglecting him, or she doesn't care about him working at Gold's shop, since that would be counter to Emma's character the way I see her in my eyes. But if that dragged on for 2 seasons, then that's pretty much how they have treated the Emma/Charming/Snow stuff since 2A. It's baffling because it makes no sense, and the writers have no interest in providing screentime to it.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Camera One

stealinghome · November 13, 2014

And mostly through neglect because the writers never bothered to deal with it properly.

I honestly think the writers are totally clueless. I remember during 2B, someone tweeted Horowitz and asked whether Charming cared whether Emma went back to the Forest or stayed in our world, and he was like "he cares. very much." And I was kinda like...dude, if he cares, you might want to show some evidence of that on screen! If people have to ask, doesn't that indicate it's a problem????

I honestly think Eddie and Adam bop along assuming we all know Snow, Charming, and Emma love each other and miss each other when they're separated and etc etc etc. I really do believe they're honestly that clueless.

Camera One · November 13, 2014

I remember during 2B, someone tweeted Horowitz and asked whether Charming cared whether Emma went back to the Forest or stayed in our world, and he was like "he cares. very much." And I was kinda like...dude, if he cares, you might want to show some evidence of that on screen! If people have to ask, doesn't that indicate it's a problem????

Oh good grief. Seriously, I don't know why I still get astounded by their tweets at this point.

Rumsy4 · November 13, 2014

Snow has been defined by guilt almost her entire life, either from not using the candle to revive her mother, or spilling Regina's secret, or getting Cora killed. Emma represents Snow's biggest failure--not having the guts to eliminate Regina when she had the chance. That's probably why Snow doesn't expend effort into building a relationship with her daughter. When she tried in S2, instead of a fairy tale reunion with her daughter, her daughter pushed back with hard facts about her life. That's when Snow gave up. She'd rather not deal with her guilt.

Charming is marginally better with Emna, but at the end of the day, he too will put Snow above anyone else. Emma had every reason to push these people away, but she finally decided to stay with her parents in Storybrooke, when she gets Snow's judgemental attitude thrown at her face. It's time for Snowing to prove that they are good parents to Emma, as well as Baby Snoflake.

regularlyleaded · November 13, 2014

In S2, that whole Charming wanting to go back to the Enchanted Forest thing without considering Emma already struck me as odd and out of character. I tried to explain it as Charming just assuming that Emma would want to go back, and not being used to making decisions as a family. But really, after being reunited with Emma after 28 years, Snow and Charming would be able to say bye bye and go back to the Enchanted Forest? I cannot believe that.

[...]

When they're ignoring a relationship, I personally find it very difficult to draw any conclusions and I usually go with what I know about the characters from the past. An example is Emma and Henry in 4A. We have hardly seen them spend any time together, but I cannot assume that Emma cares about Henry less, or is so involved with Hook and hung up on her issues that she's neglecting him, or she care about him working at Gold's shop, since that would be counter to Emma's character the way I see her in my eyes. But if that dragged on for 2 seasons, then that's pretty much how they have treated the Emma/Charming/Snow stuff since 2A. It's baffling because it makes no sense, and the writers make no attempt to explain it.

I see what you're saying, Camera One. For me it's not so much that it's difficult to draw conclusions (though it definitely can be), instead I find that I can only rely on what has been actually presented on screen. And whether I can't believe that Snow and Charming would choose to leave Emma behind in 2B with the beans (and whether that runs contrary to the S1 ideal that Snowing like to go around saving/helping others), the fact is that's what happened. Snow and Charming were going to leave and merely offered Emma they opportunity to go with them in s2B, and events not dissimilar to that have repeatedly happened enough since then that it's created a pattern in Snow and Charming's behavior (in regards to Emma). I may not like the picture that emerges from this pattern concerning Emma and her parents, but I think it's there nevertheless.

As far as Emma and Henry's relationship, it's been consistently shown that Emma puts Henry first. We may not be seeing them together a lot so far in S4, but I don't need to see them on screen to know that Emma is thinking of Henry when she makes big life choices because Emma's past behavior clearly shows that she will do what's best for Henry. He's always her main concern and in the forefront of her mind. That is the pattern that has been put on the screen season after season, that's show canon between Emma and Henry. But unfortunately, the same cannot be said between Emma and her parents. And as I mentioned in my prior post, the pattern the writing has given us in regards to Emma and Snow & Charming is quite opposite from what has been established between Emma and Henry.

Edited November 13, 2014 by regularlyleaded

Camera One · November 13, 2014

I see what you're saying, and I think if I started the show at 2B and got introduced to these characters at that time, I would be inclined to feel that way.

But since I watched 2B with preconceptions that I had already formed in S1 based on the flashbacks of the characters, there was a disconnect for me between who they were, and how they were acting. In those moments, I'm taken out of the show, and I just can't buy it and if the storytellers don't effectively convince me, then I don't believe it.

KAOS Agent · November 13, 2014

I honestly think Eddie and Adam bop along assuming we all know Snow, Charming, and Emma love each other and miss each other when they're separated and etc etc etc. I really do believe they're honestly that clueless.

But if they truly are that clueless how can they write scenes like Echo Cave that literally have Snow saying the relationship isn't that great or Pan telling Emma that she hasn't forgiven her parents for giving her away or have everything the Snow Queen said resonate so deeply with Emma? It's obvious that they know that it's not at all okay, they just don't want to deal with it until it fits with their plot of the day and then it's inserted, causes drama and then never freaking spoken of again.

It's also a major writing fail when they have beautiful scenes between Snowing like the heart crushing one and Emma is never brought up. Not once. No tell her I love her. No nothing. In fact, they had Snow fretting about living without David and he tells her that she'll see him in their new child's eyes. What? What about the child they already have, the one who shares a ton of traits with her father? The one who will actually remember him and be able to talk about him with her mother? This is where the pattern of Snow & David not giving a moment's thought about their daughter comes through. And because they've given all of Snow's one on one scenes this season to Snow & Regina (even though they never made it to air), we don't get quality interaction between Emma and her mother to counteract the impression they've given about Snow's feelings about her daughter.

Now they've had Snow cringe away from her daughter in fear, not willing to even look Emma in the eyes when she tried to cover the awkwardness and hurt she was feeling about the whole thing. No apologies or words or actions will ever be able to wipe that away from their relationship. It's not possible. The Snow Queen hit on it and Emma will always be looking for that glint of fear and distrust behind their eyes. But on this show, they won't ever deal with it. They'll just hug it out and everyone will be hap-hap-happy people because actual emotional drama and real long term consequences is beyond this show.

KingOfHearts · November 13, 2014

It's also a major writing fail when they have beautiful scenes between Snowing like the heart crushing one and Emma is never brought up.

The entire Missing Year blew that one up. They really don't give a crap about Emma unless they need saving. Forget the kingdom, forget Emma - their comfortable lives on the throne are more important.

And because they've given all of Snow's one on one scenes this season to Snow & Regina (even though they never made it to air), we don't get quality interaction between Emma and her mother to counteract the impression they've given about Snow's feelings about her daughter.

It's sad that though Snow and Regina get plenty of moments together, they're rarely productive. They're usually just full of Regina feeling sorry for herself and Snow giving pep talks. It's incredibly boring and a waste of time.

Edited November 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

regularlyleaded · November 13, 2014

But if they truly are that clueless how can they write scenes like Echo Cave that literally have Snow saying the relationship isn't that great or Pan telling Emma that she hasn't forgiven her parents for giving her away or have everything the Snow Queen said resonate so deeply with Emma? It's obvious that they know that it's not at all okay, they just don't want to deal with it until it fits with their plot of the day and then it's inserted, causes drama and then never freaking spoken of again.

This. I think this is it exactly and I think it explains much of this show's issues with character "development".

It's not that the writers aren't aware of the issues they've created, it's just they write all the character "development" around the Plot!Plot!Plot! So any non plot related issues between the characters are held in limbo until the plot (contrivance) fairy demands it be brought up. And once the plot line is complete, any dangling character "development" threads are either simply flushed away (never to be heard from again) or sent back into limbo to await the next plot line to call up on them.

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