Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[YaddaYadda]

I don't have a problem imagining what they talked about.  Hook is still a man out of time.  In two shows we got him mentioning something about electricity and then using a cell phone.  We know he reads, he could've talked about a book he liked, she could have explained to him what Netflix is and what she watched. 

 

Hook and Emma, they've sort of always connected on several levels as has been mentioned.  I'm glad they didn't take them from 0 to whatever in warp speed.  And it's not exactly insta-love.  There's always been an attraction there and he always felt more for her than she did and incidentally, I've been wondering if that line thrown by Rumple at Hook about being all puppy-like chasing after the object of his affection wasn't done on purpose.  There are a lot of people who feel that way and that line actually surprised me and I'm wondering if they won't be building on that.

 

If the end of their date is any indication, it seems that when Emma finally let's go completely of her walls, she's going to fall pretty hard for him.

[ShadowFacts]

 

If the end of their date is any indication, it seems that when Emma finally let's go completely of her walls, she's going to fall pretty hard for him.

 

I guess so, but how is it going to register when she finds out about his dealings with Gold and what he did to the old apprentice?  Will she brush that off just as she did seeing Regina burn Snow at the stake?  Or think back to how faulty her judgment has been even recently, with Walsh?  I don't like what a chump Kilian is being, and I hope Emma doesn't slip into Belle-like behavior.  Of course Hook is not Rumple by a long shot, but he is making major missteps.

[YaddaYadda]

I guess so, but how is it going to register when she finds out about his dealings with Gold and what he did to the old apprentice?  Will she brush that off just as she did seeing Regina burn Snow at the stake?  Or think back to how faulty her judgment has been even recently, with Walsh?  I don't like what a chump Kilian is being, and I hope Emma doesn't slip into Belle-like behavior.  Of course Hook is not Rumple by a long shot, but he is making major missteps.

 

 

Your guess is as good as mine and my guess is that he's going to tell her.  I cannot imagine him sitting on something as big as a hat that sucks magical creatures in it and Rumple's very determined quest to gain more power.  I'm hoping he'll tell her and she lets him work on getting the hat away from Rumple.  She'll probably be pretty angry with him though, but his initial reflex was to come clean to her. 

 

When she asked him out, she told him how she thought about how he said he was a survivor and he was all well you don't have to worry about me...They've been pretty heavy handed with something happening to Hook this season but that will happen when it happens and it might actually be Rumple related with the whole threat of taking Hook taking Rumple down with him and could really see this happening.

[Dani-Ellie]

I guess so, but how is it going to register when she finds out about his dealings with Gold and what he did to the old apprentice?

 

This is what I'm afraid of and why I'm hoping (but preparing myself for it to not happen) that Hook fesses up immediately. 1) The reason Rumple was able to get the upper hand in the first place was because removed Hook's leverage (or so he said). If Hook were smart, he'd remove Rumple's leverage right now. 2) He should have learned better from the Zelena thing. 3) At some point, he needs to trust Emma just as much as she trusts him. 4) Keeping it from her is falling into the same trap every other guy has when it comes to her: keeping secrets. If he really cares about her, I think he needs to be the one to break the cycle.

[Curio]

All this conversation about needing "normal conversations" has me wondering: does anyone on this show ever have a "normal conversation?" It's hard to come up with many examples of any pairing on this show (romantic or not) having a normal day-to-day conversation. The only ones I can really think of are throw away lines said by background characters, in which it's usually a sentence or two, and then it's onto the next plot thing. For example, Grumpy and Sleepy in the premiere arguing about who got to be the designated driver - it lasted about 2 sentences and then BAM! there's a plot point standing in the middle of the road.
 

Obviously ymmv, but for me, if Emma was to meet someone tomorrow who's just as into her as Hook is, I'd be hard-pressed to name the qualities about Hook that would lead her to pick Hook over NuGuy.

I don't know, I'd imagine Emma would be pretty creeped out at "NuGuy" for being Hook-level head over heels in love with her even though they literally just met. ;) But I think that's one of the reasons why Emma would choose Hook over NuGuy - Hook and her actually have history together. They've known each other for an extended amount of time, and for someone like Emma, that's really important. Emma has always been a drifter and never stayed in one spot for a long period of time, so she's never had friends who were always there for her. That's what Hook is to her; he's just "there." Like, all the time. (Cue: Wow, Hook needs to get some hobbies outside of Emma complaints.) Emma needs someone who'll be that person who always shows up for her. Even when she's annoyed with Hook and doesn't appear to want him around, he still wants to help. So yeah, I'd say that's why she'd pick Hook over creepy NuGuy.

[stealinghome]

All this conversation about needing "normal conversations" has me wondering: does anyone on this show ever have a "normal conversation?" It's hard to come up with many examples of any pairing on this show (romantic or not) having a normal day-to-day conversation.

I think Snowing have had fair amounts of normal, day-to-day conversations, actually. While I agree that the getting-together phase of their romance was rushed, I deeply disagree that we never see any "normal" conversations with them. We saw them quarreling over whether or not to move, for example. We saw them working together to comfort Henry. We've seen them talking about making a baby, or trying to navigate parenting an adult child (same-age awkwardness aside, I imagine that's hard for any parent whose child is now an adult--when do you step in and when do you butt out). We see David trying to help Snow with her new job. We've seen them get coffee at Granny's after a long day. We see them tease each other about being out of shape. We've seen David try to comfort Snow on her birthday, a day that's hard for her because her mother passed away on it when she was a kid. Even some of the more fantastical elements of the show have led to some really domestic moments (him trying to make breakfast in bed for her after 'Miller's Daughter,' her confessing her suicide-by-Regina attempt to him). Given that the show is so action-oriented these days, I'm actually amazed at how domestic and "normal" they've made Snowing with relatively little screentime. So, can't agree that we never see any "normal" moments or conversations between couples on the show, nor that Snowing are just as not-normal-life-oriented as Captain Swan currently.

Edited October 21, 2014 by stealinghome

[scenicbyway]

I guess so, but how is it going to register when she finds out about his dealings with Gold and what he did to the old apprentice?  Will she brush that off just as she did seeing Regina burn Snow at the stake?  Or think back to how faulty her judgment has been even recently, with Walsh?  I don't like what a chump Kilian is being, and I hope Emma doesn't slip into Belle-like behavior.  Of course Hook is not Rumple by a long shot, but he is making major missteps.

 

Emma doesn't seem to hold grudges.  Think about Regina or even Gold-  she doesn't trust them but she also doesn't judge them for their actions.  I don't see her being that hard on Hook.  When Emma asked what happened to his hand, Hook replied that the "Dark One's" magic wasn't what he thought it was."  From this explanation Emma didn't dig any deeper, she was fine with his explanation because she knows that Gold can be a jerk.  Look at the situation when Emma wanted to go off and find the Ice Queen and she told Hook to go to the office with Elsa.  Hook wasn't about to let her go into danger without him, he wasn't mad, he just wanted to be there for her.  Hook going off and doing something with Gold because he owes Gold for the hand isn't going to make her mad, she'd want to go after Gold herself for how he's making Hook pay.  Emma lives in a grey area, she's been to prison, she's been a thief, she's been a bounty hunter, she understands that people aren't always going to do the right thing.  It's not like we're dealing with Snow White here, Emma's lived a hard life and she knows Hook has to, it's expected that he won't always be on the side of good.

 

I don't think Hook's a chump either.  Was it stupid to want his hand back? No. Was it stupid to want it back from Gold? Yes.  Could he have explained the situation to Emma and had her take it off?  Perhaps, but her magic isn't that developed yet and Regina isn't speaking to them.  Gold was pretty much his only option.  Hook was so desperate to rid himself of his dark side hand that he told Rumple he'd do anything.  That's desperate, but it doesn't make him a chump. 

 

All of this is happening because the show runs on drama and, as part of that drama they needed to give Hook something to do outside of Emma.  David is the co-sheriff, Snow is Mayor, Regina is sulking, Hook needed something to do because he no longer has a boat.  Splitting his time between Gold's cause and Emma's case investigations gives him something to do and also shows the audience that he's straddling the line between his dark past and his bright future.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Hook's a chump either.  Was it stupid to want his hand back? No. Was it stupid to want it back from Gold? Yes.  Could he have explained the situation to Emma and had her take it off?  Perhaps, but her magic isn't that developed yet and Regina isn't speaking to them.  Gold was pretty much his only option.  Hook was so desperate to rid himself of his dark side hand that he told Rumple he'd do anything.  That's desperate, but it doesn't make him a chump.

 

Am I the only one who thought Rumple was lying through his teeth the whole time about he being the only one to be able to remove the hand and everything else he said and Hook just bought into it this time because of what Rumple had said about the hand?

 

It's not like Hook is this suggestible guy.  The whole thing is completely off.

 

Anyway, we shall see!

[Curio]

Thanks for those examples, stealinghome. I'd actually forgotten about a lot of those moments. I guess my point wasn't that there aren't any normal conversations in the show, just that there aren't many, and the conversations we actually get tend to be overshadowed by the plot/exposition dialogue. 

 

I know it's Season 4 already and I should be used to this show's style of storytelling, but it frustrates me that these writers don't know how to write better relationship dialogue. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

I don't think Hook's a chump either.  Was it stupid to want his hand back? No. Was it stupid to want it back from Gold? Yes.  Could he have explained the situation to Emma and had her take it off?  Perhaps, but her magic isn't that developed yet and Regina isn't speaking to them.  Gold was pretty much his only option.  Hook was so desperate to rid himself of his dark side hand that he told Rumple he'd do anything.  That's desperate, but it doesn't make him a chump.

 

By chump I mean he is allowing himself to be duped.  I agree YaddaYadda, the whole thing is off because Hook hasn't been that gullible.  Why would he believe what Gold was shoveling?  Gold said he was following Emma like a puppy.  I wouldn't go that far, but he is looking suddenly too desperate to have his hand which has never been an issue til now.  He was duped by Gold.  Almost everybody is, but notably Anna bested him (but failed to include her fiance and people of Arendelle in her extracted promise).

[FabulousTater]

Given that the show is so action-oriented these days, I'm actually amazed at how domestic and "normal" they've made Snowing with relatively little screentime. So, can't agree that we never see any "normal" moments or conversations between couples on the show, nor that Snowing are just as not-normal-life-oriented as Captain Swan currently.

It's worth noting though that Snowing in present day timeline is at a completely different point in their relationship than any other relationship on this show, especially Emma and Hook. Namely, Snow and Charming have been in an established romantic relationship for many years. In present day, where we've seen all these "normal" moments that were noted between Snowing, Snow and Charming are many years married and in a stable relationship. And as of right now, they have a kid so at this point all they talk about is their domestic situation because that's what's big in their lives now.

 

All the other "couples" on the show are relatively new, especially Emma and Hook, who have barely even put an official label on their relationship as of the most recent episode, and are at the very beginning of their romantic story together (assuming they are going to have more story together, who knows with this show) so I don't think it's a fair comparison to make between Snow and Charming's relationship in present day, versus Emma and Hook who only just now started dating.

 

I guess my point wasn't that there aren't any normal conversations in the show, just that there aren't many, and the conversations we actually get tend to be overshadowed by the plot/exposition dialogue.

It's a problem that I think we've all noted at one point or another (ad nauseam ;-) ). The writers on this show get twitchy when there are no plot points flying around hitting people on the heads. Having normal moments requires slowing the pace of the show and that's not something they will let happen despite it probably being in the "Top 5 Things We Want From This Show" audience wish list.

Edited October 21, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

To turn the topic a bit, I'm wondering what Rumpel's plan for dealing with Belle's lack of immortality is. Have they had that conversation when she's not Lacey? Neal expressly rejected being 14 again because he would lose who he was (and really, who would be excited about being 14 again?). When August was de-aged, he forgot everything. Rumpel told Smee that he could not make him immortal, only turn back time, but even if Rumpel can stop Belle from aging without turning back time, would she be happy about that? She'll watch everyone she knows and loves grow old and die. And what about children? Does he stop their aging as well? What about their spouses and their children and their children's children and so on? Not to mention, living forever isn't really the blessing people might think it would be. If Belle decides she's tired of living, would Rumpel allow her to die?

[YaddaYadda]

I don't even think he thought that far ahead, busy that he is trying to lose that dagger of his.  Belle is a second thought to him.  There was a time he thought she died, he shed his crocodile tears then moved on.  I don't see what will be different this time around. 

[Mari]

There was a time he thought she died, he shed his crocodile tears then moved on.  I don't see what will be different this time around. 

I don't know . . . last time he thought she died, he still had the Baelfire goal. 

 

Magic's definitely a truer love for him than Belle is, but I think her death would be an excuse to do all the things he doesn't quite let himself do.  Rumple never goes full evil eyes--particularly with Belle around.  And he seems to have a bizarre mixture of arrogance and self-loathing.

 

Knowing he'd never see Baelfire again, and that Belle had died?  I'm not sure which would rule his actions--the arrogance or the self-loathing, and both have the potential to be horrific in different ways.

 

I don't even think it would be Belle the person he'd miss;  it would be Belle as the Rose Colored Glasses Mirror whose loss could devastate him.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Mari

[ShadowFacts]

 

I don't even think he thought that far ahead, busy that he is trying to lose that dagger of his.  Belle is a second thought to him.  There was a time he thought she died, he shed his crocodile tears then moved on.  I don't see what will be different this time around.

Could his goal be to lose his own immortality?  I think it seems to be, he wants to keep immense power but not be the actual dagger-controlled Dark One. 

[Rumsy4]

Well... he does want to stop being under the control of the Dagger, but I have a hard time seeing Rumple wanting to lose his immortity. As the Apprentice seems to have been around for hundreds of years as well, its quite likely that one of the perks of possessing the Hat is immortality. Which begs the question, where is the Sorcerer? Inside the Hat?

[ShadowFacts]

Rumple was willing to end it all and did so, kind of, until Neal went and resurrected him.  So he may or may not still have that willingness to end his immortality.  Your question about the apprentice and the sorcerer is a good one.  I wondered initially if the apprentice was not indeed the sorcerer. 

[Shanna Marie]

She'll watch everyone she knows and loves grow old and die.

Who does she love other than Rumple? She barely interacts with anyone enough to miss them or maybe even notice if they vanished from existence.

[Rumsy4]

Rumple was willing to end it all and did so, kind of, until Neal went and resurrected him. So he may or may not still have that willingness to end his immortality.

Dying to save the lives of his loved ones, with no other option left, is different from living day to day with the knowledge of growing old and eventually dying, though. I'm not sure Rumple has that fortitude. He doesn't seem to want to grow old with Belle.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Dying to save the lives of his loved ones, with no other option left, is different from living day to day with the knowledge of growing old and eventually dying, though. I'm not sure Rumple has that fortitude. He doesn't seem to want to grow old with Belle.

 

It is different.  He currently doesn't have anyone but Belle relationship-wise.  He might have one with Henry someday, or snag another babe when Belle is gone.  But as Mari mentions, he has a lot of self-loathing.  And we've been shown that the previous Dark One desperately wanted to be killed.  So in the future with no relationship, no ties, and he hates his bad self, he may let go of the immortality.  Right now he's still in the throes of power-lust.  As to Belle wanting to be part of the neverending power couple, I suppose it depends on just how much she has allowed herself to become corrupted.  I'm pretty sure she's not going to be killed off, so if she doesn't leave him before the end of the show, maybe she inspires him to become fully human as has been done in other literature. 

[Shanna Marie]

And we've been shown that the previous Dark One desperately wanted to be killed.

But the previous Dark One was not in control of himself. He was under the control of the Duke, used as a puppet, the way Zelena used Rumple. That could have been the reason for the death wish rather than just being tired of immortality.

 

I think they've written themselves into a corner with Rumple by making him the Beast -- they can't/won't fully redeem him because they want him to be a villain, but they want to keep him in the relationship with Belle. That makes Belle look delusional and it makes it look like he doesn't really love her if he's willing to risk their entire relationship to keep his power. No matter how much she bleats about his good heart, a person with a moderately decent heart wouldn't act the way he does. They can't let her love save him until the end of the series, and as bad as he's been, it's actually a rather sick message to say that all it took to save him from that level of evil was someone who never stopped loving him and believing in him, in spite of the horrible things he's done. So, yeah, stay with your abusive or criminal boyfriend because if you love him enough, you can save him, and if he hasn't stopped being a jerk, then maybe you didn't love him enough. You can't give up on him, no matter what awful things he does.

[Dani-Ellie]

I think they've written themselves into a corner with Rumple by making him the Beast -- they can't/won't fully redeem him because they want him to be a villain, but they want to keep him in the relationship with Belle.

 

I agree with this. The Beauty and the Beast story can be read as problematic anyway with a prisoner falling for her captor, but at its most innocent, it's about looking beyond outward appearances and recognizing who the person really is inside. It's a lovely lesson but the problem I find with Belle and Rumple is the person who Rumple really is inside is a power-hungry villain. Yes, yes, he was tricked into being the Dark One, but he's had chance after chance to be rid of his powers and he won't, for whatever reason that may be. He may have been a good man once, but there's that saying about absolute power corrupting absolutely, and I think it's relevant in this case.

 

Now, I do think there could have been an opportunity with Rumple to explore the idea of a Dark True Love. Can two villains love each other truly? But since they won't (or can't) take Belle down the villainous path, we're left with what we're left with: a Belle who at best turns a blind eye to the darkness in her husband and at worst enables it.

[Curio]

They can't let her love save him until the end of the series, and as bad as he's been, it's actually a rather sick message to say that all it took to save him from that level of evil was someone who never stopped loving him and believing in him, in spite of the horrible things he's done.

 

Honestly, I think the only way the writers can maybe make the situation better is by having Belle leave Rumple until the very end of the series. It's a win-win situation in my book: 1) The writers get to keep evil Rumple until the end of the series, and 2) Belle can disappear into off-screenville along with Ruby, because the writers will never kill her off at this point. Rumbelle fans can get their happily-ever-after at the very last episode when Rumple finally gives up his power and chooses Belle, but until then, keep them separated please.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Curio

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think they've written themselves into a corner with Rumple by making him the Beast -- they can't/won't fully redeem him because they want him to be a villain, but they want to keep him in the relationship with Belle. That makes Belle look delusional and it makes it look like he doesn't really love her if he's willing to risk their entire relationship to keep his power.

 

He also looks like he doesn't love her because true love's kiss breaks any curse and it hasn't, right?  Or is there something I missed?  I think he did just describe her as a light in his life, not the love of his life.  Belle apparently hasn't caught on to that distinction.  I hope in the end she is liberated from the non-love of that not-good heart.

[Curio]

He also looks like he doesn't love her because true love's kiss breaks any curse and it hasn't, right? Or is there something I missed?

I think there's potential for Belle to be his True Love, but Rumple keeps repressing it. We saw his curse disappearing during their first kiss, so she technically is a True Love candidate, but now that he knows that, I think he deliberately does something each time they kiss to keep his Dark One powers. At least, that's my head canon.

[Rumsy4]

I think there's potential for Belle to be his True Love, but Rumple keeps repressing it. We saw his curse disappearing during their first kiss, so she technically is a True Love candidate, but now that he knows that, I think he deliberately does something each time they kiss to keep his Dark One powers. At least, that's my head canon.

That's what I think so as well. Talk about being distracted while kissing! I'm imagining Rumple with a constipated look on his face, trying to keep the curse-breaking power at bay every time he and Belle kiss. :-p

[KingOfHearts]

Don't TLKs require intent? Even if a True Love couple kisses, one them needs to have the intent on TLKing. Otherwise, there would be rainbow blasts every hour.

[Rumsy4]

Don't TLKs require intent? Even if a True Love couple kisses, one them needs to have the intent on TLKing. Otherwise, there would be rainbow blasts every hour.

I don't think so. Many of the Curse-breaking instances in the Show did not have the people intending to break a Curse. The rainbow shock-wave only happens when a curse breaks.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know if there has to be an intent for a TLK to work.  I mean when Emma kissed Henry, I don't think she was going for a TLK or anything like that.

[Curio]

Don't TLKs require intent? Even if a True Love couple kisses, one them needs to have the intent on TLKing. Otherwise, there would be rainbow blasts every hour.

 

That's a fair point, but that would also mean Belle literally doesn't care about Rumple being the Dark One. Wouldn't she want to intentionally TLK him to remove his evil curse because his heart is so pure and...

 

Ah, who am I kidding. Belle doesn't give a crap about how evil Rumple is as long as he's nice to her.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Curio

[Mari]

Ah, who am I kidding. Belle doesn't give a crap about how evil Rumple is as long as he's nice to her.

And she doesn't have to clean up too much of the mess herself, or doesn't get it on her shoes.

[KingOfHearts]

The real reason is probably just the writers being arbitrary with their magic laws as usual. We could headcanon a whole science to explain every kiss, but you could do that for any plot hole.

[Shanna Marie]

I think the TLK only gets all the magical special effects if it's breaking a curse. Otherwise, it's just a kiss. It's the breaking curse that goes all sparkly, not the kiss itself. Since Rumple is under a curse that doesn't break when he kisses Belle, then it means it's not True Love. It had the potential, since the curse almost broke once, but he chose to keep his power, and that means that it's not currently True Love. If I were her, I'd be kind of irked, since theoretically there's no excuse for him needing to retain his power. Back when it first happened, he could say he was holding on to power because he'd need it to reach Bae. Now, what's stopping him? And yet his curse isn't broken in spite of all they've gone through to be together, which should be a recipe for True Love.

 

Snow and Charming may have True Love Kisses every time they kiss, but they only get the whoosh and aura when that kiss breaks a curse. Robin only knew for sure it wasn't true love with Marian (gag) when he kissed her and the curse didn't break. He couldn't tell that from their other kisses (of course, the fact that she always had to run off to rinse her mouth with bleach when she remembered where his mouth has been may have sent the message).

 

That's why I don't think Emma would be freaked out if she got a magical True Love kiss with Hook -- there's no way of knowing if any of their current kisses are True Love because there's no curse to break. She'd only know it was magical if there was a curse or if it was one of those tearful confessions of true feelings to someone believed to be dead/near death, and then she'd be relieved if the kiss turned out to be magical and saved the life. The freakout could come later (and her parents and son might be more freaked out than she is).

[Amerilla]

All this talk about Belle and Rumpel highlights of the  major disappointments for me with S3 and now into S4 in how the relentless focus on Shocking! Twists! and the Half-Arc du Jure is gutted Rumpel's character and story. While we've seen every individual tear Regina has ever shed, including those captured in a bottle and used for someone else to literally feel her pain, Rumpel's interior emotional life has been shoved further and further into the background. 

 

Over the first two seasons, Carlyle did an excellent job of showing the duality at the core of Rumpel's character and the whole "love is strength/love is weakness" conflict that runs through the whole story.

 

In his human form, the threat of losing those he loved was the only thing that could spur this frail and frightened man to action - a form of strenght, even though it almost always had negative, unintended consequences. He permanently cripples himself to assure his survival to be with Bae. He attempts to confront Hook when he thinks Milah has been kidnapped. He breaks into the Duke's castle to steal the Dark One's dagger. More recently, when rendered magicless by Pan in "Going Home," it's the threat to those he loves that allows him to give up his own life to save them.

 

In his purest form, the Dark One sees love as weakness. Zoso, in his attempt to free himself, uses the Dark One's ability to exploit love as a weapon to goad Rumpel into becoming the Dark One himself, and he very quickly destroys his most cherished love by making the very Dark One-y choice of choosing power over Baelfire. Again and again during Rumpel's tenure we see him manipulate people around him by playing off love, loss, fear. In full-imp mode, he talks about love as pain, as sickness. It's powerful magic, a tool he can bottle and use to get what he wants.

 

Love is a threat to his power, something you would think he would want to avoid at all costs. But there's a catch: there's enough of Original Recipe Rumpel left within the Dark One that he can't close himself off from love altogether - what Blue described to Bae as "the little light in him that still glows," what Belle sees as his "good heart." He devotes centuries not to the goal of collecting power and wealth for power's sake, but to getting to the Land Without Magic to find Bae. He falls in love with Belle and almost loses his power. He falls in love with Cora and not only gets hurt in the moment,  years later she comes within a split second of killing him and seizing his power. He willingly goes to sacrifice his power to save Belle and Bae from Pan.

    

You could see some of this duality play out in the scenes with Nealfire in "Manhattan" and "The Miller's Daughter." In "Manhattan," he chokes. He doesn't know what to do or say beyond offering up magic as a solution - the absolute last thing Nealfire wants or needs to hear. In "The Miller's Daughter," it's a different situtation. His name is fading off the dagger as he's dying, and even as he instinctively tries to get it all back, for a very brief window of time and for the first time in centuries, he's not fully the Dark One, and he can suddenly say very simple emotional truths: he can tell Belle that he thinks she's wonderful and he's grateful for her having loved him; he can tell Bae that he loves him and he's sorry for what he did. Then the Dark One's power fully reasserts and he goes back into his safety zone.)

 

A lot of the richness of the character has faded over S3 and into S4. Because the writers can't seem to do emotional complexity, they can't let him grow and change - so they just repeat his same storyline over and over and over again. Since the start of S2, Gold has gotten his power back, found Belle, lost her, traveled into the "real" world, found Bae, learned Henry was his grandson and a potential threat to his power and life, lost Bae, dallied with Lacey, got Belle back, left her, traveled to Neverland, confronted his father, found Bae again, killed his father, died, was brought back to life, saved Neal at the sake of his sanity and self-control, spent a year locked up in a cage, was forced by Zelena to act against his will, was freed, killed Zelena and covered it up, and married Belle after the world's quickest engagement. Any one of these thing could push a "magic addict" beyond the brink and back to old tricks, but the story just keeps barreling along, only stopping for a couple of lines of exposition to remind the audience where we've been without ever digging in to what they mean for the character or the couple. There's only so much Carlyle can do to keep his performance fresh, and with so little left to work with, his performance is becoming (sadly) one-note.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think the TLK only gets all the magical special effects if it's breaking a curse.

Hm. There was no rainbow when Charming kissed Snow in Heart of Darkness, unless there's some sort of "curse hierarchy" going on. It's a bold statement since it disproves Rumpbelle's "True Love". It might be true though.

 

The real question is why it doesn't irk Belle as to why there hasn't been a TLK.

Edited October 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I actually am pretty sure intent does matter with True Love's Kiss, though. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that both people go into it thinking "Yes, we are going to break a curse!", but we've definitely seen that if someone isn't open to love, the curse doesn't break. For example, Charming's first kiss to Snow in 1x16 didn't work because her heart was closed. She was rejecting him, love, everything. Only once she opened her heart to the possibility of love could True Love's Kiss break the curse on her. Emma's True Love's Kiss to Henry in 1x22 worked because it was the first time she let herself REALLY open up and feel all the love she had for him. Etc.

 

So given that, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that if two people in love are kissing, and they both don't want a curse on one of them to be broken, the curse won't be broken.

[Mari]

 (Why hasn't Belle thought about the TLK at all? Why doesn't it irk her that the curse isn't broken?)

I actually am pretty sure intent does matter with True Love's Kiss, though. . .

 

So given that, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that if two people in love are kissing, and they both don't want a curse on one of them to be broken, the curse won't be broken.

So why wouldn't she object, or want the curse to be broken?  The way the character has been portrayed, and the way they keep recycling Rumple/Belle's storylines (See Amerilla's comprehensive post about it above.)?  I don't think we're left with very many options.  None of them good.

 

1. Belle is stupid.  It doesn't occur to her that Rumple doesn't really love her. 
2. She loves him enough it's okay with her if he doesn't truly love her back.  She'll take whatever he gives her and other people don't matter enough for her to stand up for them regularly.
3. Belle enjoys being the reason the Dark One doesn't go full Imp.  She loves the power it gives her when she controls his dark side--not with the dagger, mind you--but completely within his choice through the power of their relationship.  She enjoys being what a dangerous, powerful man willingly submits to.
4. She loves her self-image as a good girl, but enjoys the pain he inflicts on others.  Him being cursed allows her both.
5. She doesn't want to admit that she's wrong about him.  It would shatter her self-image and world-view, and other people don't matter enough for her to stand up for them regularly or stop him.

 

There are probably more, but that's what I've got.  Personally, so far, I think it's a combination of these things.  I just can't always agree with myself on which ones.

[stealinghome]

It could just be that she respects Rumpel's right to make that decision about himself--that, given that it's his life and his body, it's a decision only he can make. Now, that spawns a whole different set of questions she should have about Rumpel, but she seems to think that he's come to a place where he can be the Dark One and also mostly good, so. (Frankly, I did think it was a bit presumptuous of her, if absolutely well-intentioned, to True Love's Kiss him in 1x12 and decide that she was going to end his curse, in the same way it was presumptuous of Charming in 1x16 to be all "I will kiss you, woman who doesn't remember me, and break your curse!")

[Mari]

It could just be that she respects Rumpel's right to make that decision about himself--that, given that it's his life and his body, it's a decision only he can make. Now, that spawns a whole different set of questions she should have about Rumpel, but she seems to think that he's come to a place where he can be the Dark One and also mostly good, so. (Frankly, I did think it was a bit presumptuous of her, if absolutely well-intentioned, to True Love's Kiss him in 1x12 and decide that she was going to end his curse, in the same way it was presumptuous of Charming in 1x16 to be all "I will kiss you, woman who doesn't remember me, and break your curse!")

 

I completely agree that it should be Rumple's choice, too, and she shouldn't have initiated that first kiss intending to break the curse without discussing it with him--it shouldn't be done against his will.  But, if she's going to stay in a relationship where he chooses to continue living the way he is, doing what he does?  There are reasons;  she's getting some needs met in that relationship, too.  If on some level she wasn't okay with him as the Dark One, she would have gone, and stayed gone-not in a blackmail way, but in a being true to herself way. 

 

I have fewer issues with Charming kissing Snow intending to break the curse, simply because I can see where he thought since she didn't have full memory, she couldn't understand.  Presumptuous, but to me a little more understandable considering the relationship history.

[KingOfHearts]

But isn't Rumple's status as the Dark One a constant reminder that he'll always choose power over Belle? She wasn't comfortable with it in Skin Deep and The Crocodile. She left him both times because of it. Now she's totally okay with it? The show doesn't even care to explain her views.

[Amerilla]

The real question is why it doesn't irk Belle as to why there hasn't been a TLK.

I've probably blathered enough about this today, but what the hell...

Putting aside the reality that Belle can only do what the writers want her to do, and the writers don't want there to be a TLK at this point in the story, there are a few different ways to look at it from a character perspecive.

First, Belle understands Rumpel better now that she did in the 'Skin Deep' era. When she TLK'd him back then, she was coming at it from a perspective of freeing someone she was coming to love from a curse that was causing him and others pain. She didn't realize - because he hadn't told her - that taking away his power would also take away his ability to get to back to Baelfire, nor did she understand the depth of his fears surrounding love and abandonment. Once she reemerged in Storybrooke and understood more of what was going on in his head, hitting him with another TLK would have been a moot point until at least after he found Bae...and for them, there really hasn't been an "after." From the point where she was shot in mid-S2, they haven't had much uninterrupted time together.

Second, it's kind of a moot point in Storybrooke anyway, isn't it? Nobody seems particularly concerned that he's still the Dark One, even after the Wraith and Cora and Pan and Zelena incidents. Nobody is talking about re-imprisoning him. (Hell, when Snowing was planning on leading the exodus back to the Enchanted Forest, they were talking about sticking Regina in Rumpel's old cell...not sticking him back in there.) Nobody seemed upset that Belle and Nealfire resurrected him in the EF - instead they went to him for help. So, why should Belle be any more concerned than the public at large, especially when she has a track record of getting him to take it down a couple notches and now that she thinks (however temporarily) that she has the dagger? Is it that much meaningful for her to break a curse when it's not treated like as a threat to anyone?

Third, while I don't think that Belle is all that into the Dark One aspect of his personality, I do think she's grown comfortable with the status quo. In their early phase, I think Belle was most attracted to what I was talking about in my previous post - the duality, the mystery of the "ordinary man" hiding inside the monster. The adventuresome part of her likes the "fight" for his heart, the drama of it all -- and once the fight is over, they're just another normal married couple, the simple shopkeeper and his librarian wife and maybe a kid or two, and while I don't think she'd stop loving him, it's the type of change that might give one pause before plunging in.

Fourth, as the story stands right now, she and Gold had both been though a massive amount of trauma in a relatively short period of their lives. (Plus, Belle just spent 30 years locked in a cell/padded room, which in any other show would have some sort of impact or fallout on the way she views her life and the world.) The curse, much less breaking it, has to be the absolute last item on her agenda at this point.

Finally, Belle is a big believer in choice and agency. If she believes nobody should choose her own path, forcing or cajoling Rumpel to break the curse because she wants it gone would be hypocritical. Since she reappeared in his life, she's been consistent in pointing out the right path in life, but she's let his choices be his own.

There are probably more, but those are the ones the jump to mind.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Amerilla

[InsertWordHere]

Confirmation that Henry is living at Regina's again. I'm really hoping this is just because, to quote the woman herself, Emma really needs her own place. Otherwise, it doesn't jive with what Henry said at the end of last season about looking for a place with Emma after he had regained his memories. I certainly hope Regina does not have full custody of Henry.

[Emma]

Say what? It was my understanding he'd be staying with both. I can't even with this show sometimes.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Emma

[Rumsy4]

It doesn't make sense! Has Henry become finicky about living space now? I really can't see Emma being okay with Henry living full-time with Regina either.

[Dani-Ellie]

Ugh. Well, maybe that will shut the "this show treats Emma as his only mother" Regina fans up, at least.

[KingOfHearts]

Ugh. Well, maybe that will shut the "this show treats Emma as his only mother" Regina fans up, at least.

But now we get "this show treats Regina as his only mother" fans. ;)

[Dani-Ellie]

Shh. I was trying to look on the bright side here. ;)

 

Seriously, though, shared custody is a thing, writers. One week with Emma, one week with Regina. There ya go, fairness.

[KAOS Agent]

 

He devotes centuries not to the goal of collecting power and wealth for power's sake, but to getting to the Land Without Magic to find Bae.

 

But we've seen that this is inherently not true. There are a plethora of ways he could have gotten to this world (ignoring the fact that Bae was in magical Neverland for hundreds of years), but he chose not to because he couldn't deal with living here without his power. He wanted his son, but not without magic too. Plus, he was trying to get Anna to get him the hat so that he could become all powerful. He wasn't all about Bae during this time. He was also out looking for ways to gain more power.

 

 

When she TLK'd him...She didn't realize - because he hadn't told her - that taking away his power would also take away his ability to get to back to Baelfire, nor did she understand the depth of his fears surrounding love and abandonment. Once she reemerged in Storybrooke and understood more of what was going on in his head, hitting him with another TLK would have been a moot point until at least after he found Bae

 

Which makes this untrue as well. He didn't need his magic to get to Bae from the Enchanted Forest. And once in this world, he was powerless when he went to find him in NYC, so the excuse that he needed his magic until he found Bae in this world doesn't work either. At some point, this needs to be addressed between the two of them because the way it's been written, Belle looks like an enabling idiot and Rumpel a complete jackass who cares more about having power than his wife. Rumpel's True Love at this point is power pure and simple.

[Camera One]

What a load of... if Henry is going to live at Regina's full time, there's no way Emma wouldn't have had a discussion with him and Regina about that.  If anything, either the useless Regina/Henry scenes in Episode 3 or Episode 4 should have been devoted to this.

[YaddaYadda]

He devotes centuries not to the goal of collecting power and wealth for power's sake, but to getting to the Land Without Magic to find Bae.

 

Sort of true, but then not entirely.  We saw him in the fairyback going after the sorcerer's apprentice and the hat by using Anna.  Rumple wanted his cake and eat it too.  He spends centuries designing the curse to find Bae, but he's also looking for that hat to free himself from the dagger (or however that's supposed to happen). 

 

And he still wants his cake and eat it too when it comes to his DimBelle.