Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't disagree that anyone who gets involved with Rumpel or Regina needs to get their head checked, but if we're talking about Rumpel murdering Zelena, I don't think it's fair to classify her as a love interest. She had the hrs for him, but he had less than no romantic interest in her.

 

I think he might have liked her in the flashbacks to some degree, but it's up for interpretation. He definitely didn't like her in Storybrooke. I wouldn't say their were a couple, but Zelena did love him and he killed her. I'm just saying people who love Rumple or Regina romantically tend to get killed.

Edited September 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I'm just saying people who love Rumple or Regina romantically tend to get killed.

 

Three characters I intensely dislike are involved with those two.  Belle, Robin and Henry.  Henry can stay if he keeps his mouth shut, but maybe I'll get lucky with the two others.

[kili]

I don't think it's fair to classify her as a love interest. She had the hrs for him, but he had less than no romantic interest in her.

 

He was fully aware of her romantic interest and used that to his benefit to influence her towards casting a curse that would leave a permanent hole in her heart (he lead her on). It is only when he realized that the person who she loved the most was him (meaning that he would have to be the sacrifice), did he cut her loose in the most heartless way. He nudged her further along the road to CrazyTown (knowing she was in the suburbs of CrazyTown already).

 

So, while she may not be one of his love interests, she was one of his love playthings. He can be quite the jerk.

 

Another romantic interest that he played a part in killing is Cora (in this case, the romantic interest was more from his side then her's). He came up with the way to kill Cora and convinced Snow to carry out the plan. Granted, Cora was an active threat (unlike Milah and Zelena who were no threat at all), so I can sympathize with his actions there.

 

So, we've been shown four people who were in romantic relationships with Rumple (or were lead to believe they were in one) and three of them are already dead. Two of them were mother and daughter.

[Rumsy4]

I'll add Tamara to the list as Rumple's son's former fiance. He thought she was responsible for Neal's death, and showed no mercy when she begged for forgiveness.

To be safe from Rumple, any woman who has had a hint of romantic feelings towards him or his son needs to tread carefully. That's why the writers had Emma tell Rumple about Neal's "heroic" death during the time travel adventure. Rumple can use a potion to verify the truth. Otherwise, Emma would be toast.

[kili]

That's why the writers had Emma tell Rumple about Neal's "heroic" death during the time travel adventure. Rumple can use a potion to verify the truth. Otherwise, Emma would be toast.

 

Emma probably would have been toast if Neal hadn't used his dying breath to tell his father that he made Emma separate him from his father. Neal definitely knew his father well. Emma may still not be safe.

[KingOfHearts]

It's funny that there have been many times when Rumple could have killed Regina, but never did. After all the times she's poked at him, tried to overpower him and even kill him, he maintains some sort of family-like relationship with her. She's the one woman in Rumple's life who has remained pretty stable with him. Emma has taken that role as well now. It's interesting that there are just some people Rumple chooses to spare and work with, and others he murders on the spot.

Edited September 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Tamara was also the one who, when Rumpel killed her, had just killed his son, kidnapped Henry in service of the Evilest Evil to Ever Evil, and generally revealed that she was a pretty evil, awful person, dedicated to some evil, awful people (even if unknowingly). I guess mmv, but I'm not holding that as any sort of domestic violence against Rumpel. Him killing her had nothing to do with her relationship with Neal and everything to do with the fact that she killed Neal, or so they all thought. (In fact, if anyone committed domestic violence in that situation, it was definitely Tamara.)

 

Quite frankly, I'm more creeped out by Rumpel orchestrating Cora's death--but even there, given that Cora was actively trying to kill Rumpel, I don't think it's anywhere near the same as Rumpel murdering Milah or Regina murdering Graham. If someone I used to be in a relationship is actively trying to kill me, and I retaliate and kill them, that's a little different than what Rumpel did to Milah.

 

Which is not to say that Rumpel isn't creepy as fuck and did commit domestic abuse (obviously) against Milah and has some really twisted and fucked-up relationship dynamics. But there's a qualitative difference between some of these examples.

 

It's interesting that there are just some people Rumple chooses to spare and work with, and others he murders on the spot.

And strangely enough, it tends to correlate with series regulars and guest actors.

[kili]

It's funny that there have been many times when Rumple could have killed Regina, but never did.

 

He did try to kill Regina at least once. He tried to kill her with the wraith, but Emma and Snow were able to save her (at the cost of falling through a portal to the EF).  In the process, he also wrecked a lot of the town.

 

That was pretty much the first thing he did after he restored magic and the curse was broken. Prior to the curse, he needed her alive to cast the curse. During the curse/no magic period, he would have had to have beaten her to death to kill her and me may have still wanted her around to provoke Emma to break the curse. As soon as she was no longer necessary, he tried to kill her.

 

Belle left him for trying to kill Regina (when he'd promised her he wouldn't), so that may be one of the reasons he's not tried it again since.  She also now has magic, so killing her might be a little harder.

[FurryFury]

Rumple may not have killed Regina, but he did ruin her life, probably happy to get one over Cora in a twisted way. So she's also his victim, she just had to live with it (I don't absolve her from guilt for her decisions, but Rumple's manipulation was a big factor in her becoming The Evil Queen).

Edited September 7, 2014 by FurryFury

[KingOfHearts]

He did try to kill Regina at least once. He tried to kill her with the wraith, but Emma and Snow were able to save her (at the cost of falling through a portal to the EF).  In the process, he also wrecked a lot of the town.

True, but he did it in revenge for locking up his current girlfriend. So again, it's tied with his love interests.

Edited September 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I don't disagree that anyone who gets involved with Rumpel or Regina needs to get their head checked, but if we're talking about Rumpel murdering Zelena, I don't think it's fair to classify her as a love interest. She had the hrs for him, but he had less than no romantic interest in her.

Agree. Rumple has a tendency to murder defenseless women, which is creepy, but not as creepy as Milah's murder. Cora was a love interest, and he was an accomplice in her murder, but the thing that made Milah's murder creepy was that it was a direct reaction to her saying that she didn't love him.

[Grammaeryn]

I am in the middle of a rewatch where I basically skip to any scene where Emma has interactions with her parents. For a while, I had been lamenting the lack of Emma/Charming interactions but from this rewatch, I have a new perspective. To be frank, S1 David was a douche who really hurt and disappointed Mary Margaret and Emma saw that first hand. So, having that guy turn out to be your father might be tough. I know, it was the curse but come on Mary Margaret had a scarlet A branding by the town while David had no repercussions.

My hope for S4 is some kind of bonding/mention that both Emma and Snow are mothers who have never cared for a baby. I really don't mean hoping for ridiculous Lucy and Ethel hijinks over diapers. Just maybe some melancholy or Emma asking for Henry's baby pictures.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Grammaeryn

[Shanna Marie]

I also feel they should have established the character better before telling us about the twu 4eva luv he has with Regina. To create a good romance, there should be more characterization and an existing dynamic.

This week's Doctor Who episode was called "Robot of Sherwood," and I jokingly accused them of ripping this show off, since we've already got a robot of Sherwood as Robin, for all the development he's been given. He's completely lacking in all the style and charm that are generally associated with the character. As for the romance, I was talking earlier in the All Seasons thread about how they love Regina enough to give her all the goodies, but they strangely don't seem to enjoy actually writing for her. Instead of writing a real romantic plot about two people who've lost their loves and never thought they could find love again and exploring what happens when a woman who cursed a whole kingdom to take away everyone's happy endings because she thought she'd never get her own happy ending meets someone and starts falling in love, they just gave her a gift-wrapped boyfriend with a bow on his back (literally). Regina falling in love again should have been a HUGE deal, given the number of times we've seen her in flashbacks moaning about how you don't get second chances and because evil Snow ruined her one chance at love she'll never get a happy ending. Not to mention the fact that Robin Hood, who is traditionally opposed to unjust rulers, was falling for the Evil Queen, which should have been a huge conflict. But even when they were writing the snarkfest in the missing year, it was just her shooting zingers at him and him being all "whatever" about it. It wasn't even the sexual-tension-laden "Moonlighting" style snark and banter that eventually has everyone else saying, "Oh, just do it already." If that was what they thought they were writing, they failed, because it really struck me as her having zero interest or respect in him. There wasn't enough of him to read.

 

I mentioned this in the spoiler thread, but since it's not spoilery and is mostly relationship-oriented, I'll bring it up here. I'm thinking that doing this triangle plot at the same time as they do the Frozen plot is a potentially disastrous mistake. They've had a lot of publicity and attention and that will probably bring in some curious new viewers. That's really not the best time to have a married Robin Hood with Maid Marian in the picture showing any interest in another woman. There will likely be a lot of families watching because the kids want to see the Frozen show, and the reaction to Robin Hood possibly cheating on Maid Marian may get them a big "what the hell?" Most of the people I know in real life who used to watch the show with their families quit because they couldn't take Regina's antics (which could explain that huge ratings drop between season one and season two), and some of them are talking about tuning in again to watch the Frozen stuff. That's not going to go well. They've depicted adultery in the past, but not in a way that breaks up a canon pairing that even kids know goes together. With the whole David/Mary Margaret triangle in season one, we knew David and Mary Margaret were really Prince Charming and Snow White, and that they were really married (because we saw the wedding in the pilot) and that his Storybrooke marriage was a fake and they were under a spell. With the Rumple/Milah/Hook thing, both Rumple and Hook were villains who had no canon pairing (unless you count Hook/Crocodile) and Milah was a new character, so it's not like anyone came into the show invested in that outcome, and you expect bad behavior from villains. But making one of the traditional heroes cheat on his canon wife with a traditional villain may not be a good idea at a time when the show will be under a lot of scrutiny. This could backfire.

 

I know, it was the curse but come on Mary Margaret had a scarlet A branding by the town while David had no repercussions.

I think a lot of that was Regina's doing because she was making Mary Margaret suffer. And then she made things worse by framing Mary Margaret for Kathryn's murder, to really turn public opinion against her. It wasn't just the curse running its course, it was Regina stirring things up and taking advantage of the fact that no one knew their true identities to manipulate public opinion and force David and Mary Margaret away from each other, since they had that pesky habit of finding each other and being together no matter what Regina did to them.

[stealinghome]

Actually, the town turning on Mary Margaret really bothered me because it's always struck me as an example of the writers being totally, totally clueless as to problematic gender stereotypes and societal narratives. They like to think they're so good and so progressive with gender--and in some respects they are--but that, to me, just reeked of a lot of internalized and normalized misogyny. (And while in S1 I might have given them the benefit of the doubt and said that maybe it was intentional, to make a point--yeah, no, 3 seasons later, I have no more benefit of the doubt to give. I think it's just them being totally, offensively clueless.)

 

With the whole David/Mary Margaret triangle in season one, we knew David and Mary Margaret were really Prince Charming and Snow White, and that they were really married (because we saw the wedding in the pilot) and that his Storybrooke marriage was a fake and they were under a spell.

And also, the show didn't shy away from showing that David and Mary Margaret were acting badly. It raked David especially over the coals for hurting Kathryn, and went out of its way to point out that David's behavior wasn't acceptable. So for families watching, there was still a Moral Lesson to be had.

 

Whereas I just don't see that level of self-awareness coming in the inevitable Regina/Robin/Marian triangle. I suspect the show is going to be like "well OBVIOUSLY Marian is totally wrong and a jerk, Wegina+Wobin 4EVA!" It's not going to have that same disapproval of Robin, in a situation where--for all David Nolan was a total douche--Robin is acting like 300% worse.

Edited September 7, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

Actually, the town turning on Mary Margaret really bothered me because it's always struck me as an example of the writers being totally, totally clueless as to problematic gender stereotypes and societal narratives. They like to think they're so good and so progressive with gender--and in some respects they are--but that, to me, just reeked of a lot of internalized and normalized misogyny

 

The reason, at least how I saw it, that Mary Margaret got some much more flack for it than David was because Mary Margaret was deeply involved in the town's community. They respected her as an innocent schoolteacher who symbolized kindness and purity. The town felt betrayed by someone they thought they knew for years. They had barely even met David Nolan. Plus, Regina was pushing them to blame Mary Margaret with her TRAMP paint or whatever else she did so she could usher in the murder framing. I wholeheartedly agree though that how they handle genders is far less than perfect.

 

I agree with Shanna Marie 100% on Regina and Marian. I know a lot of people irl that are wondering why Regina hasn't gotten killed for what she's done!

Edited September 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

The town felt betrayed by someone they thought they knew for years. They had barely even met David Nolan.

I do think it's possible to fanwank that the town was so hard on Mary Margaret because they saw her as victimizing David Nolan--like the narrative became "oh, that poor man just got out of a coma, he's weak and confused and just trying to get his footing in the world again, and she swooped in and really took advantage of his vulnerable state." (That's how I headcanon why the town said nothing to David Nolan, at least.) And I could also accept "Regina was working behind the scenes to make everyone hate Mary Margaret especially" as an answer.

 

But as usual, the show gave us nothing, so I'm forced to conclude that Adam&Eddie didn't see anything weird about it at all.

Edited September 7, 2014 by stealinghome

[Jean]

I think it kind of worked in the sense that Woegina has wanted the citizens to hate Snow forever and she never got why they didn't. They never turned on Snow, back in the forest. Here in her world and her curse, she could get them to do that.

 

Also Snow was the focal point. She got all the story and the drama. David didn't get any "flack" means he didn't get any story out of it.

[Serena]

I didn't find anything strange about the town blaming Mary Margaret. Sadly, in real life it's usually "the other woman" that gets the blame for "stealing" the man. I think the town was portrayed as being unduly harsh and we were meant to feel sorry for her.

There's an interesting contrast with Rumple still claiming (even after he knew Milah went willingly) that Hook "stole" Milah from him. Hey, maybe Hook and Snow could have a talk about that!

[Hookian]

I don't think it's really possible to judge the general audience's opinion--the online audience is a very small fraction of the general audience.

 

and fwiw, everyone I know IRL who watches the show thinks Outlaw Queen is super lame.

Okay well lets look at this another way shall we?

 

Let's put aside "Robin and Regina" worldwide trends on twitter and the finale winning entertainment awards for this storyline. The Once facebook account which has well over 5 million Oncers on it has 99,000 likes on a OQ hope post, and also the comments section unanimously favors OQ over Marian. Lets be honest here folks. People care a heck of a lot more about Regina then some no face gal that only has a name to identify who she is.  That's what happens when audiences see a characters journey for what will be going on 4 years now.

 

https://www.facebook.com/OnceABC/photos/pb.168914433164059.-2207520000.1410177967./653021504753347/?type=3&theater

 

To simply discount those 99,000 people is simply naive in my book. I think this holds much more weight then your example of "oh everybody I know thinks OQ is lame" because I can probably guarantee you don't know 99,000+ people. :)

 

Plus lets look at this another way, conventions. Just look at the recent two cons Fairytale Con and Spooky Con, the response to OQ at both events was overwhelmingly positive. Comic Con as well for all it's worth, though it only got a mention at that convention. We haven't seen a video from Dragoncon but from the sounds of it they were received well there as well.

 

So based on these facts I would say it's entirely within reach to say the majority of GA viewers have no problems at all with OQ, and are rooting for them simply because Regina deserves happiness as much as Rumple and Hook do. They see her happiest with RH so that's whom they want her to be with. 

 

The writers also are marketing this so the general audience can root for OQ. Not once have the writers ever brought up Marian as an equal in this triangle. It's always saying stuff like "she's in the way", "she's the detour". 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hookian

[RadioGirl27]

I'm not going to engage in any further discussion about what the general audience think about OQ, because we really don't know what they think. Internet is not the best source to know what people think about that relationship, because you can't compare causal fans, who watch the show every sunday and then forget about it until the next sunday, with avid fans who spent time on the Internet overanalyzing every detail of the show. The second group is a minority compared with the first one. And really, cons are even a worts source about general opinion on the show. So, no, we don't know what the GA think about Outlaw Queen, Captain Swan or any other thing.
And I know the writers love Regina, and that probably Marian is going to die, and Robin and Regina would end up together. But it doesn't mean I have to like it.
 

 

So based on these facts I would say it's entirely within reach to say the majority of GA viewers have no problems at all with OQ, and are rooting for them simply because Regina deserves happiness as much as Rumple and Hook do. They see her happiest with RH so that's whom they want her to be with.

The fact that anybody could think that a rapist, child abuser and a mass murderer deserves happiness, especially when said person hasn't shown the tiniest remorse for what she has done, is beyond me and it makes me wonder in what kind of society we live.

[Hookian]

I'm not going to engage in any further discussion about what the general audience think about OQ, because we really don't know what they think. Internet is not the best source to know what people think about that relationship, because you can't compare causal fans, who watch the show every sunday and then forget about it until the next sunday, with avid fans who spent time on the Internet overanalyzing every detail of the show. The second group is a minority compared with the first one. And really, cons are even a worts source about general opinion on the show. So, no, we don't know what the GA think about Outlaw Queen, Captain Swan or any other thing.

And I know the writers love Regina, and that probably Marian is going to die, and Robin and Regina would end up together. But it doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

The fact that anybody could think that a rapist, child abuser and a mass murderer deserves happiness, especially when said person hasn't shown the tiniest remorse for what she has done, is beyond me and it makes me wonder in what kind of society we live.

See your discounting my claim simply because you think that all my examples qualify for online fandom. However I would hardly call every fan on the OUAT FB page a passionate hardcore fan whom consistently analyzes things. Most of those fans ARE members of the GA. They just watch the show, to watch the show and then make comments on it on their FB accounts.

 

Also you really need to stop flinging those terms around, it's appalling.  If you don't like Regina/OQ that's fine then to solve this issue, during her scenes you can stare at the wall or zone out so you don't get so worked up over a fictional character you don't like.

 

The only reason Regina doesn't show regret for everything she's done is because ultimately in the end all the shit she did led her to finally have something in her life worth fighting for, true love. It got her, Henry and nothing in the world could ever make her regret that decision. Even the journey she's been on because ultimately in the end it allowed her to experience what the Charmings always preach, true love is the most powerful magic of all. That doesn't negate all the crap that she's done in the past. In Regina's eyes it was all worth it because if she ever went a different route then the way she went about things, she would have never gotten the chance to meet the love of her life, Henry.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hookian

[RadioGirl27]

Also you really need to stop flinging those terms around, it's appalling. If you don't like Regina/OQ that's fine then to solve this issue, during her scenes you can stare at the wall or zone out so you don't get so worked up over a fictional character you don't like.

Oh, I'm going to continue to criticise everything I don't like about the show. And, at this point, there are more things I dislike that things I like. If you like OQ and Regina, fine, but I don't and I'm not going to stop saying what I think about it, because you don't like it.

 

The only reason Regina doesn't show regret for everything she's done is because ultimately in the end all the shit she did led her to finally have something in her life worth fighting for, true love. It got her, Henry and nothing in the world could ever make her regret that decision. Even the journey she's been on because ultimately in the end it allowed her to experience what the Charmings always preach, true love is the most powerful magic of all. That doesn't negate all the crap that she's done in the past. In Regina's eyes it was all worth it because if she ever went a different route then the way she went about things, she would have never gotten the chance to meet the love of her life, Henry.

Are you saying that it's good to rape and kill if it brings you what you want? Edited September 8, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Hookian]

Oh, I'm going to continue to criticise everything I don't like about the show. And, at this point, there are more things I dislike that things I like.

Are you saying that it's good to rape and kill if it brings you what you want?

Then if that's the case wouldn't the healthy thing to do be stop watching the show? If it doesn't entertain you or make you happy, it boggles my mind why you would continue watching. If I don't like a show or the direction it goes in I simply stop watching and supporting it.

 

Did you miss the part in my response where stated "this doesn't negate all the shit she's done" however if she was to go any other route then the route she did, she would have never met Henry. Her chance at true love.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hookian

[RadioGirl27]

Then if that's the case wouldn't the healthy thing to do be stop watching the show? If it doesn't entertain you or make you happy, it boggles my mind why you would continue watching. If I don't like a show or the direction it goes in I simply stop watching and supporting it.

 

Did you miss the part in my response where stated "this doesn't negate all the shit she's done" however if she was to go any other route then the route she did, she would have never met Henry. Her chance at true love.

This is the last time I'm going to answer any of your posts. First of all, I watch the show because, as I said, there are things about it I still like, and it entertains me well enough. You don't need to like everything about a show to enjoy it. In fact, it's good to have a critical view of things.

And my second question stays the same. You said she shouldn't feel remorse because all the bad thing she did brought her Henry. So you are justifiying her behaviour. And for me nothing justifies rape, child abuse and mass murder.

Edited September 8, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Rumsy4]

Then if that's the case wouldn't the healthy thing to do be stop watching the show? If it doesn't entertain you or make you happy, it boggles my mind why you would continue watching. If I don't like a show or the direction it goes in I simply stop watching and supporting it.

Did you miss the part in my response where stated "this doesn't negate all the shit she's done" however if she was to go any other route then the route she did, she would have never met Henry. Her chance at true love.

Why shouldn't people engage in a show if they want to be predominantly critical? I don't get this idea that fan-engagement has to be pro-show.

Regina did get Henry through all her murder, rape and abuse. And she abused her now True Love son for 10 years. So, I don't personally cheer the fact that Regina got what she wanted by doing evil things.

Now, I do recognize that people cheer on characters whom they never would in real life, but that does not mean I have to like those same characters.

[Curio]

[is it] good to rape and kill if it brings you what you want?

I'm not the biggest Regina fan, but this issue lies more with the writers and how they've developed Regina's character so far. They're the ones who wrote all those awful things Regina did, but still expect the audience to cheer on her relationship with Robin. 

 

What annoys me about it all is that the writers seem to want the audience to dissociate the Enchanted Forest's "Evil Queen" from Regina in Storybrooke. In the Season 3 finale, Hook makes sure to clarify to Emma that who they're witnessing isn't Regina, but the Evil Queen -- as if they're two separate characters. I feel like the writers threw that line in as a way for the audience to accept Regina's atrocious acts in the Enchanted Forest, but still feel sympathy for her in Storybrooke because they're practically two different people. It's unfair to Regina's character, though, to completely absolve all of her actions in the Enchanted Forest just because she was the Evil Queen, and hey, that's what evil queens do. I also feel like this will be the argument all throughout Season 4 when the writers try to convince the audience that Robin should still be with Regina because technically it wasn't Regina who tortured Marian, it was her crazy alter ego who we should all be entertained by because she wears cool outfits and chews the scenery.

 

The strange thing is this: in the very same episode Hook points out the difference between the Evil Queen and Regina, we meet Hook's past version of himself, too. But we're never meant to dissociate Hook's past version of himself from his current version -- we know it's still the same character, but he's just in a darker place in his life at that time. Hook tries to make it clear to Emma that she doesn't know the man Hook used to be so she should be careful around him, but I don't get the impression that he excuses his past behavior just because he was a more evil version of himself. He accepts that he was a drunken asshole, and he's worked hard to become a better version of himself in Storybrooke, even though he gets called out for his past behavior a lot. I just find it really interesting that - when given the opportunity - Emma still enjoyed her time with the more villainous Hook in the past, but Robin did not get along with the missing year Regina who looked like her Evil Queen counterpart. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Curio

[Dani-Ellie]

What annoys me about it all is that the writers seem to want the audience to dissociate the Enchanted Forest's "Evil Queen" from Regina in Storybrooke. In the Season 3 finale, Hook makes sure to clarify to Emma that who they're witnessing isn't Regina, but the Evil Queen -- as if they're two separate characters.

 

This is ultimately my problem. Regina is the Evil Queen, period, full stop. Regina tried to kill Snow, Regina murdered Snow's father, Regina massacred that village, Regina imprisoned Marian and delighted in her pleas for mercy, Regina put Marian and Emma on death row, and Regina tried to burn Snow at the stake. Regina did not have a cursed personality, Regina is not both; she never was. 

 

Trying to treat both sides of Regina as two separate characters is creating this disconnect because she's not two separate characters. And in order for me to be okay with the characters being okay with her past actions, I need to see those past actions addressed. I can't just swallow that Snow is okay with the woman who stole her daughter's childhood from her and I can't just accept that Emma is okay with the woman she'd just witnessed attempt to burn her mother at the stake and I can't just swallow Robin being okay with the woman who took his wife from him and Roland's mother from him.

 

 

 

The strange thing is this: in the very same episode Hook points out the difference between the Evil Queen and Regina, we meet Hook's past version of himself, too. But we're never meant to dissociate Hook's past version of himself from his current version -- we know it's still the same character, but he's just in a darker place in his life at that time. Hook tries to make it clear to Emma that she doesn't know the man Hook used to be so she should be careful around him, but I don't get the impression that he excuses his past behavior just because he was a more evil version of himself.

 

Comparing Regina's arc vs. Hook is so fascinating to me because Hook's arc is going pretty much how I'd wish they'd done Regina's. Hook is not excusing his past behavior, he's showing remorse, he's realized that vengeance and anger won't soothe that ache in his heart and will in fact only keep him miserable. The inconsistency of the writing is astonishing because, imo, they're managing a redemption arc quite nicely with one villain while utterly mangling it with another.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Hookian]

I'm not the biggest Regina fan, but this issue lies more with the writers and how they've developed Regina's character so far. They're the ones who wrote all those awful things Regina did, but still expect the audience to cheer on her relationship with Robin. 

 

What annoys me about it all is that the writers seem to want the audience to dissociate the Enchanted Forest's "Evil Queen" from Regina in Storybrooke. In the Season 3 finale, Hook makes sure to clarify to Emma that who they're witnessing isn't Regina, but the Evil Queen -- as if they're two separate characters. I feel like the writers threw that line in as a way for the audience to accept Regina's atrocious acts in the Enchanted Forest, but still feel sympathy for her in Storybrooke because they're practically two different people. It's unfair to Regina's character, though, to completely absolve all of her actions in the Enchanted Forest just because she was the Evil Queen, and hey, that's what evil queens do. I also feel like this will be the argument all throughout Season 4 when the writers try to convince the audience that Robin should still be with Regina because technically it wasn't Regina who tortured Marian, it was her crazy alter ego who we should all be entertained by because she wears cool outfits and chews the scenery.

 

The strange thing is this: in the very same episode Hook points out the difference between the Evil Queen and Regina, we meet Hook's past version of himself, too. But we're never meant to dissociate Hook's past version of himself from his current version -- we know it's still the same character, he's just in a darker place in his life at that time. Hook tries to make it clear to Emma that she doesn't know the man Hook used to be so she should be careful around him, but I don't get the impression that he excuses his past behavior just because he was a more evil version of himself. He accepts that he was a drunken asshole, and he's worked hard to become a better version of himself in Storybrooke, even though he gets called out for his past behavior a lot. I just find it really interesting that - when given the opportunity - Emma still enjoyed her time with the more villainous Hook in the past, but Robin did not get along with the missing year Regina who looked like her Evil Queen counterpart. 

I'm gonna have to disagree with the end of your statement. What Emma enjoyed about the situation was present Hook being jealous of past Hook. She egged him on about that and smiled.  Emma had a job and she was doing it, she was just putting on an act for Captain Hook. She did everything with her feminine wiles to allow Killian time to meet with Snow about the ring. Did she enjoy using her bounty hunter tricks on past Hook heck yeah I think she did, but the biggest kick she got out of this was Killian's reaction.

 

As far as Robin is concerned I do think he enjoyed Regina's banter and sass to an extent. He seemed as much in the scene with the counsel, even had a small smirk. These two acted like the trope "I love you, but I also hate you" banter that is very common in media. I think we have to look at more flashbacks from the missing year which hopefully we will get this coming season to better understand Robin and Regina's relationship.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hookian

[shipperx]

Rumple may not have killed Regina, but he did ruin her life, probably happy to get one over Cora in a twisted way. So she's also his victim, she just had to live with it (I don't absolve her from guilt for her decisions, but Rumple's manipulation was a big factor in her becoming The Evil Queen).

Rumple has been manipulating Regina for his own purposes to suit his own devices since she was a teenager, so yeah, she is a 'victim' of Rumple... which isn't to say that she is not responsible for her own actions, because she is responsible for her own choices.  That said, yeah, Rumple was a magical predator with a plan, which does him no credit whatsoever (though it does not relieve Regina of culpability for her own actions/choices.)   

[Curio]

Emma had a job and she was doing it, she was just putting on an act for Captain Hook. She did everything with her feminine wiles to allow Killian time to meet with Snow about the ring.

You're right, Emma was flirting with past Hook because it was a task. We also know she's good at doing that kind of ruse because we've seen her go on a fake date in the very first episode of the series. But I think we can also agree that Emma is a very intelligent character who can stand up for herself, so I highly doubt the whole lets-make-out-with-past-Hook plan was the only available option at that time, which means she secretly wanted to do it because she was enjoying the situation. Even if she was only enjoying the make out session because she secretly wanted to be doing that with present Hook, she trusted the past Hook enough to kiss him.

 

As far as Robin is concerned I do think he enjoyed Regina's banter and sass to an extent. He seemed as much in the scene with the counsel, even had a small smirk.

I definitely think the writers attempted to do the love/hate banter with them, but it was just a bit hit and miss for me. In the episode where Robin helps Regina sneak into the castle to get the sleeping curse needle, I saw some potential there. But the "pine cones and needles" comment just seemed to be way too forced and cheesy. Again, that's more of an issue I have with the writing than the actual couple. I wish we could have seen some actual scenes of Robin and his son staying in her castle during the missing year, because that could have been a good way for the audience to see Robin slowly realizing Regina is trying to become a slightly better person.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Curio

[ShadowFacts]

 

See your discounting my claim simply because you think that all my examples qualify for online fandom. However I would hardly call every fan on the OUAT FB page a passionate hardcore fan whom consistently analyzes things. Most of those fans ARE members of the GA. They just watch the show, to watch the show and then make comments on it on their FB accounts.

 

The numbers quoted about  likes on a Outlaw Queen post may be a large number, but are still only 2% of the facebook fans.  So decidedly a minority. 

 

 

Trying to treat both sides of Regina as two separate characters is creating this disconnect because she's not two separate characters. And in order for me to be okay with the characters being okay with her past actions, I need to see those past actions addressed. I can't just swallow that Snow is okay with the woman who stole her daughter's childhood from her and I can't just accept that Emma is okay with the woman she'd just witnessed attempt to burn her mother at the stake and I can't just swallow Robin being okay with the woman who took his wife from him and Roland's mother from him.

 

So true, she is not two characters.  To use an old example, she is not like Scarlett O'Hara, who was selfish, egocentric, did mean things, but also fiercely loved her family and family's land and worked her fingers to the bone to protect them and their slaves (ugh).  Regina was presented in flashback as a pretty sweet and kind and helpful young woman who was tormented by her mother and cracked wide open evil after Daniel was murdered.  And never looked back, and still hasn't regretted a thing.  Writers took her too far.

[formerlyfreedom]

As a reminder, you don't have to agree with everyone here, but you do have to get along. There is a "Manage Ignore Prefs" selection up in the little profile button, please use it if you need to. The conversation is getting circular in here, and that needs to stop, please.

[FurryFury]

I feel like the writers threw that line in as a way for the audience to accept Regina's atrocious acts in the Enchanted Forest, but still feel sympathy for her in Storybrooke because they're practically two different people.

 

I wonder if they should have written in an "Angel/Angelus" type of clause into Regina's character at least somewhere in s2. Like, tell us Rumple cast a spell on her to gnaw upon her morality, to taint her heart, something. At least it could have helped to root for her, she'd have an "under influence" excuse. As it is, she's an unrepentant villain fully capable of relapsing into her past behavior. A walking time-bomb. Yes, Henry's her morality pet (and now Robin is too), but take them out, and what's left? A dangerous, uncontrollable magic user who could attack anyone she perceives to have wronged her.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina was presented in flashback as a pretty sweet and kind and helpful young woman who was tormented by her mother and cracked wide open evil after Daniel was murdered.  And never looked back, and still hasn't regretted a thing.  Writers took her too far.

 

After looking at Stable Boy again, I don't find her hate for Snow believable from this episode alone. The writers went out of their way to show Regina being big-sister to her, but also showing absolute hatred and fear for Cora. I don't understand why it all points to Snow instead of Cora, because this episode shows the exact opposite. If the anger toward Snow came later when she was just jealous of her looks, I could imagine that. But the Daniel thing isn't really acceptable to me as a true origin story for revenge on a small child.

 

To make matters worse, when Cora comes to town in S2, after five seconds it's "Mommy you're home!" which is completely off the wall disturbing since she tried to kill her. The writing is just so bipolar. You see one thing, then you're told the opposite.

Edited September 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[shipperx]

I wonder if they should have written in an "Angel/Angelus" type of clause into Regina's character at least somewhere in s2. Like, tell us Rumple cast a spell on her to gnaw upon her morality, to taint her heart, something. At least it could have helped to root for her, she'd have an "under influence" excuse.

I kind of think that's where they were trying to go with the black magic/blackening the heart thing.  That the use of black magic corrupted in something of a similar way to BtVS/AtS's concept of "soulless".

 

But, I agree, it was not developed well or enough to form any sort of reasoning for Regina being two people (which isn't a favored trope of mine anyway.  Frankly, it was rather a cop-out for Angel/Angelus too.   Though I always loved Darla's Angelus smackdown at his father's grave, informing him that the person he had been in life informed Angelus, no matter how he might try to run-away from it or try to deny it.)

Edited September 8, 2014 by shipperx

[stealinghome]

Okay well lets look at this another way shall we?

 

Let's put aside "Robin and Regina" worldwide trends on twitter and the finale winning entertainment awards for this storyline. The Once facebook account which has well over 5 million Oncers on it has 99,000 likes on a OQ hope post, and also the comments section unanimously favors OQ over Marian.

Okay, but the Once facebook page has 5.38 million people who like it (5,380,055 to be exact). By my calculations, that means that only 1.8% of Once fans on facebook liked the Outlaw Queen hope post. Doesn't that actually suggest that the "general viewing audience" doesn't, in fact, root for Outlaw Queen, if not even 2% could be bothered to "like" something Outlaw Queen-related? (And of course comments to that post are going to be overwhelmingly pro-Outlaw Queen--it's a pro-Outlaw Queen post!)

 

That's what I mean when I say that there's no way to know whether the general viewing audience likes or doesn't like something based on Internet statistics or polls or whatever. Statistics can generally be twisted to support anything we want them to support; polls can be voted in multiple times. The general audience might like Outlaw Queen--but we simply don't know whether that's the case.

 

Frankly, I think all we know about "general fan opinion" on this show is that 2B was pretty uniformly hated (see: massive ratings drop).

Edited September 8, 2014 by stealinghome

[FurryFury]

Frankly, it was rather a cop-out for Angel/Angelus too.

It worked OK with Angel, I think (largely because the character himself still felt guilt and regret over all the evil he had done, even if he wasn't actually the one doing it), but it was done pretty poorly with Spike, because the show's mythology was far from well-developed (still miles above Once, though).

However, I don't think that blackening of the heart was meant to show Regina wasn't in control of her past actions. It was more of a consequence. You know, like with Sith in Star Wars - your appearance changes the more you use of the Dark Side.

Re: fan opinion of OQ - I think most don't even like the ship, they just like Regina. Replace Robin with a better character (which won't be that hard), add a better dynamic, and they'll all start praising it instead of OQ. There's nothing compelling about this ship, really.

[Amerilla]

In terms of Facebook, I'd also add that, of those 5,380,055 page-likers, only a percentage of them ever saw the post in question, because Facebook's algorithm doesn't show every post on a feed to all the people that like the feed.

 

I, for example, really like Sean Maguire and find Regina infinitely less annoying when she has a chew-toy to play with. But even though I might be one of those people inclined to click like on it, I never saw that Facebook post. I don't interact with the page a whole lot (commenting, liking, etc), so Facebook sees those as low-priority for my news feed. 

[Serena]

Re: fan opinion of OQ - I think most don't even like the ship, they just like Regina. Replace Robin with a better character (which won't be that hard), add a better dynamic, and they'll all start praising it instead of OQ. There's nothing compelling about this ship, really.

I agree. I actually think it would be hilarious if they did a love triangle with a second, well-developed LI for Regina - I think people would jump ship so fast.

[shipperx]

It worked OK with Angel, I think (largely because the character himself still felt guilt and regret over all the evil he had done, even if he wasn't actually the one doing it), but it was done pretty poorly with Spike, because the show's mythology was far from well-developed (still miles above Once, though).

 

 

 

I actually tend to take the opposing view.  Angel's dichotomy always smacked a bit of deus ex machina cop-out to me (continually subtly undercut by the show, but never truly confronted). His "curse" seemed a convenient  quick 'fix' to clear up why Angel would be 'different', to clear up his murder of Jenny (et al), and "okay" for him to be 'true love' or to be called a out-and-out hero  (and he does tend to  get hero status rather than anti-hero status, which... well, a lot of fandom web 'ink' spilt on that debate back in the day...).  The blanket "he was cursed with a soul" (against his will.  Three times) never quite worked for me as redemption (I give him brownie points for effort but...hmm..it always felt mildly unsatisfying that it boils down to curse.   I actually preferred the more evolutionary process with Spike reaching an existential crisis point and choosing his own soul (albeit they massively botched the soul-quest with a cheap fake-out). 

 

I honestly never buy they 'they're  two different people" line, so generally slough that off.   Liam=Angelus=Angel just as much as William = Spike. The soul matters but it doesn't literally make them different people.  That would be entirely too easy.   

 

To me,  choice is more persuasively redemptive anyway.   

 

Generally, though,  I tend to think of soul-canon as something of a  dodge. It's a bit too deus ex machina and undermined by the fact that it was pretty consistently hypocritically employed in Angel's favor  (and I liked/loved Angel!  {at least up to his megalomoniacle comic book "Season 8" version, in which he did vastly more damage while souled than unsouled... ::shudder::  {If you don't know, don't ask.  The comics are awful} )  

 

But the whole soul-canon thing is a different show and different story so. . .

 

At any rate, I do tend to agree that they pushed Regina too far a number of times. Sometimes restraint is a good thing and they needed to have exercized it in places with Regina when they did not. 

 

The writing on Once can at times be too episode-centric or too cavalier about pushing things for the sake of "drama" with inadequate build up or exploration of the issues they just created.

 

Generally, I just roll with it.  The writing is flawed, and I accept that.  But it is frustrating when they do things cavalierly that shouldn't be treated cavlierly (Graham, the village murder, etc) or illogical (Regina not having more overt conflict withher Mother over her murdering her true love). 

 

I love a great redemption story... but they can be very difficult to write, especially when being done on the fly in a weekly serial.  Sometimes things are pushed further than they should be or under explored when that would've been the better option.

 

Where OQ are concerned, I can see on paper why it would be an intriguing thing to explore.  There's lots of in-built conflict with a hero and an evil queen. 

 

I ALSO understand the determined resistance the pairing receives because there is a GREAT DEAL that is very problematic in it.  I usually end up nodding my head at most of the protests against the pairing, and yet, entertainment wise,  I'm not constitutionally opposed to it's being explored. I just wish the whole thing were more fully/well developed and better written than it has been. I cannot say it has been well executed so far.  It hasn't been.   Like many things, there seemed too much rush and not enough development.

Edited September 8, 2014 by shipperx

[Shanna Marie]

But I think we can also agree that Emma is a very intelligent character who can stand up for herself, so I highly doubt the whole lets-make-out-with-past-Hook plan was the only available option at that time, which means she secretly wanted to do it because she was enjoying the situation. Even if she was only enjoying the make out session because she secretly wanted to be doing that with present Hook, she trusted the past Hook enough to kiss him.

I don't know that trust was really required because she was the one most in control of that situation (since she was the one getting him drunk). I think that a lot of what was going on was that past Hook provided an emotionally safe outlet for her physical attraction to him. We know that Emma doesn't generally do emotional involvement, since it tends to go horribly wrong for her. She typically tends to be a one-nigh-stand kind of woman -- no entanglements, no commitments. While it doesn't seem as though Hook was entirely opposed to that sort of thing during his dark and drunk days, she knows already that to him, she is not one-night-stand material. Anything that happens between them is totally serious to him, and this is a guy who took centuries to get over his last love and who has been willing to cross between realms multiple times on her behalf. The Neverland kiss showed that she has some physical attraction to him, but enough has happened between them since then that she can't get away with a supposedly meaningless kiss again. Now here she is with another version of him who isn't attached to her and who likely isn't going to remember. She can test whether that first kiss was a fluke and give in to her attraction without any long-term ramifications. It's sort of a "what happens in the past stays in the past" thing, so she lets herself have fun with it. She can be the way she may kind of want to be with her Hook but is still too scared to make that leap. In a way, the fact that this is the bad version of him makes it easier because she doesn't have to worry so much about his feelings the way she would with the new, improved version.

 

I can't really buy the "Evil Queen" vs. "Regina" thing because Regina in Storybrooke has a pretty awful track record. It was as Regina that she emotionally abused Henry, that she killed Owen's father and tried to imprison Owen, that she murdered Graham, that she planned the murder of Kathryn, that she framed Mary Margaret for the murder, that she tried holding the town hostage to force Henry to remain her captive, that she stood by as Cora murdered Johanna, that she got out the failsafe and planned to destroy the entire town, that she destroyed all the magic beans to trap everyone in town. Okay, so it's not on quite the same scale as the evil she did as the Evil Queen, but Regina in Storybrooke has been no angel and has done enough to warrant life in prison, at the very least. While it does seem that the writers have that "Evil Queen" vs. "Regina" thing going on, I do think it's possible that what Hook was trying to tell Emma was that dealing with Regina in that role would be very different, which was true. Emma tried to talk to her as "Regina," which got her a smackdown for being way too familiar, and the Regina Emma knows at least tries to be on her best behavior in public, even at her worst. She did her scheming behind closed doors. The Evil Queen parades her evil openly and flamboyantly. Trying to deal with the Evil Queen the way Emma dealt even with Regina at her worst would be very dangerous.

 

Comparing Regina's arc vs. Hook is so fascinating to me because Hook's arc is going pretty much how I'd wish they'd done Regina's. Hook is not excusing his past behavior, he's showing remorse, he's realized that vengeance and anger won't soothe that ache in his heart and will in fact only keep him miserable. The inconsistency of the writing is astonishing because, imo, they're managing a redemption arc quite nicely with one villain while utterly mangling it with another.

I think that also applies to Rumple. Rumple is saying the right things about remorse and recognizing the wrongs he's done (well, some of them, while he justifies himself for others), but he only changes his behavior when someone whose opinion he cares about is watching and otherwise is up to his same old tricks. Regina is mostly behaving herself, but she's never acknowledged any wrongdoing or expressed remorse. Hook is the only one who has not only changed his behavior but also acknowledged that he was in the wrong, that he made bad choices and has expressed remorse. Hook and Emma is also one of the few new relationships that's developed in a remotely satisfying way, where you can see what they see in each other and the way they make each other better and where they've had to go through a process and overcome obstacles instead of having insta-love. It's almost like the Writing Elves sneak in at night and rewrite the Hook material for them because it's like an entirely different team of writers.

[Hookian]

I agree. I actually think it would be hilarious if they did a love triangle with a second, well-developed LI for Regina - I think people would jump ship so fast.

and I'm gonna profusely disagree with you especially since the writers already threw the soulmate card between Robin/Regina.

 

 

Okay, but the Once facebook page has 5.38 million people who like it (5,380,055 to be exact). By my calculations, that means that only 1.8% of Once fans on facebook liked the Outlaw Queen hope post. Doesn't that actually suggest that the "general viewing audience" doesn't, in fact, root for Outlaw Queen, if not even 2% could be bothered to "like" something Outlaw Queen-related? (And of course comments to that post are going to be overwhelmingly pro-Outlaw Queen--it's a pro-Outlaw Queen post!)

That's what I mean when I say that there's no way to know whether the general viewing audience likes or doesn't like something based on Internet statistics or polls or whatever. Statistics can generally be twisted to support anything we want them to support; polls can be voted in multiple times. The general audience might like Outlaw Queen--but we simply don't know whether that's the case.

Frankly, I think all we know about "general fan opinion" on this show is that 2B was pretty uniformly hated (see: massive ratings drop).

 

Eh I will agree to disagree bc I can tell we're never gonna see eye to eye on this situation. 99,000 is a very large number but if you want to twist it into some ridiculous claim such as oh but that's only 1.8% then so be it. It's pointless.

 

I think the GA likes every couple the writers have thrown at them that they have shown have a romantic in each other OQ included. Especially with the whole "soulmates" card. Most GA members like things simple and root for the simple things.

 

But it's pointless anyways.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hookian

[Crimson Belle]

Honestly, even on the Facebook page, 92,000 isn't very many likes.  Just scrolling, a pic of Emma and Hook got 262,000 just a week ago.  Lots of posts have over 90,000 likes.  Heck, they could post a blank page and probably get 25,000.

 

A recent pic of Snow and Regina with the hastag "SnowQueen" got 98,000+, so maybe they are as or more popular a romantic couple than OQ.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Crimson Belle

[Hookian]

Honestly, even on the Facebook page, 92,000 isn't very many likes.  Just scrolling, a pic of Emma and Hook got 262,000 just a week ago.  Lots of posts have over 90,000 likes.  Heck, they could post a blank page and probably get 25,000.

 

A recent pic of Snow and Regina with the hastag "SnowQueen" got 98,000+, so maybe they are as or more popular a romantic couple than OQ.

They can be as popular, doesn't mean they're gonna be canon on the show. It's a fanon ship same with SwanQueen for a reason. It's not the story the writers want to tell.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Hookian

[stealinghome]

Which just goes to show that *any* discussion of popularity is pointless, because if the writers cared at all about what was popular, or let amorphous "popularity" dictate their actions, Emma and Regina would be the show's main couple!

[FurryFury]

I think the GA likes every couple the writers have thrown at them that they have shown have a romantic in each other OQ included.

It's more complicated than that. Really popular couples always needed something more that just being canon to become truly popular - and sometimes, canonicity wasn't really required. In Once's case, the writers have certainly tried to push Swanfire in season 2, and before that, tried to tease Emma with Graham and August. None of them really set sail.

[Crimson Belle]

That wasn't even close to the point, the point being that having an average number of clicks (really well below average for a post about Regina) on a Facebook page isn't a great indicator of popularity of a ship, much less indicative of anything that will actually happen on the show.

[Curio]

Hook and Emma is also one of the few new relationships that's developed in a remotely satisfying way, where you can see what they see in each other and the way they make each other better and where they've had to go through a process and overcome obstacles instead of having insta-love. It's almost like the Writing Elves sneak in at night and rewrite the Hook material for them because it's like an entirely different team of writers.

It also helps that Hook and Emma are the only pairing on the show where the two involved are well developed main characters/regular cast members. (Not including Snow and Charming since they're not a "new" couple.) Rumple and Belle could potentially count if they actually cared about Belle's character, but they still write for her like she's a side character. And Robin/Sean is just a recurring guest star, so obviously his character isn't as well developed as the rest. According to imdb, Hook appeared in 22 episodes before he and Emma even kissed in Neverland. That's an entire full season's worth (or I guess two half seasons now...) of character development before the writers decided to get him with Emma. And still, that Neverland kiss was just a kiss, they haven't even started dating yet and it's already Season 4. So yes, Shanna Marie, I think you may be onto something with that Writing Elves theory!

[Jean]

 

Hook and Emma is also one of the few new relationships that's developed in a remotely satisfying way, where you can see what they see in each other and the way they make each other better and where they've had to go through a process and overcome obstacles instead of having insta-love. It's almost like the Writing Elves sneak in at night and rewrite the Hook material for them because it's like an entirely different team of writers.

 

I'm convinced this is for 2 reasons: a) they are forced to write Hook and Emma entirely in the present and not the past, so we see practically every single moment of them that exists playing out in real time.  And b), they like or dislike Hook and Emma equally and therefore the story isn't framed in a way that emphasizes one character over another. Also someone somewhere said Christine Boylan was the designated Hook writer and left the show for greener pastures over the summer. It will be interesting to see if Hook and Hook/Emma holds up. Rumbelle and Rumple pretty much fell apart after Jane E. vacated that role.

 

Note:  I don't think they are written all that well either, in general. But compared to the others on the show? Yeah they do slightly better. I don't think they were all that interesting until the finale. I think they are less problematic than Rumbelle because they aren't as extreme. Hook isn't as bad as Rumple and Emma is nowhere near Belle good and innocent territory. But they both have enough of an edge to them to keep them from being completely cheesy as Snow and Charming.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Jean

[FabulousTater]

99,000 is a very large number

99,000 is simply a number. What makes it "big" or "small" is in comparison to another number. The other number that 99,000 is being compared to is 5,000,000 (which you consider as the number of people in the 'general audience' of OUAT -- a flawed assumption, btw). 99,000 in relation to 5,000,000 is small. It is mathematically 1.98% of 5,000,000 ( the Facebook "general audience") and therefore, by definition, 99,000 is a small number in comparison. 

 

What makes this all irrelevant is that people who spend time liking and following anything on Facebook (or here on TV discussion boards) are more than just the "general audience". They are considered to be a part of the avid fandom and not just general audience/casual viewers. What casual viewers like or dislike is not something that can be tracked with absolute statistical accuracy. Even the current method of tracking show viewership is Nielsen ratings and even those can't tell you with any degree of certainty what characters, story lines, or "ships" casual viewers endorse or dislike. Some educated guesses can be drawn from Nielsen ratings but generally that's only just slightly better than using a Ouija board.

Edited September 8, 2014 by FabulousTater