Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Rumsy4]

The same effect would be love angst at the end of the season - an old lover to throw a wrench into the works of a current couple to get shippers mad. I agree on Milah - that would cause issues with not only Rumpbelle but CaptainSwan too. (Even with sensible people, the writers know how to make it cray cray.)

 

They already did that with Neal, though. S3 was Neal coming back from ""Being dead" and throwing a wrench into CS (3B had Walsh), and look where that got us--lots of angst and shipper wars. A&E must be desperate to pull that again! Really poor writing. 

[ShadowFacts]

I think there is one way the return of Marian could be more than just a soapy obstacle for poor Regina, and that is to have Regina come face to face with the consequences of her stupid, vicious actions, and regret them.   Regina bashing in this situation comes easy, she is 100% responsible for grabbing Marian and marking her for death, and it's come back to bite her.  If Marian had died some other way before Regina imprisoned her, then she wouldn't have been present for Emma to save and bring back.  Regina taking her prisoner for not revealing Snow's whereabouts is a direct cause for Regina's current woes and maybe the writers will surprise us all and let her stew in her own juices for awhile.

 

Yeah, okay, I came to my senses, that will happen when pigs fly.

Edited August 29, 2014 by ShadowFacts

[Hookian]

They already did that with Neal, though. S3 was Neal coming back from ""Being dead" and throwing a wrench into CS (3B had Walsh), and look where that got us--lots of angst and shipper wars. A&E must be desperate to pull that again! Really poor writing. 

Yes and they did it with Snowing in S1. S1- Snowing, S3- Captain Swan, S4- Outlaw Queen, you see the pattern here? Obstacle comes in between them right when they're starting to get there.

 

It's call TV, this is how TV cliches work.

[Rumsy4]

Yes and they did it with Snowing in S1. S1- Snowing, S3- Captain Swan, S4- Outlaw Queen, you see the pattern here? Obstacle comes in between them right when they're starting to get there.

 

It's call TV, this is how TV cliches work.

 

Well... not all TV shows go that route every season. Besides, in none of the earlier scenarios was one member of the triangle responsible for the death of another member in the triangle. I think pretty much everyone knows that Marian is toast. That doesn't mean we have to like it. ;-)

[Hookian]

Well... not all TV shows go that route every season. Besides, in none of the earlier scenarios was one member of the triangle responsible for the death of another member in the triangle. I think pretty much everyone knows that Marian is toast. That doesn't mean we have to like it. ;-)

Again there's no proof that says Regina is the one who killed Marian. There's no proof and I'm sure we'll find out exactly how she died this season.

[Rumsy4]

Again there's no proof that says Regina is the one who killed Marian. There's no proof and I'm sure we'll find out exactly how she died this season.

 

For now, I'm going to stick with what we were shown. What we were shown was that Regina was about to execute all prisoners in the morning. If the writers retcon that part, I'll judge the situation based on how they do it. If the Marian in the dungeon was really Zelena or some other villain in disguise, I'll eat my hat. ;-)

[Shanna Marie]

I also think it just comes down to a fundamental, basic difference in their personalities. David's the optimist, the glass half-full guy, who believes that things will work out okay and who always tries to make the best of the hand he gets dealt by life. (Que sera, sera.) Snow is the eternal pessimist, the glass half-empty gal, who actually has a rather depressive personality, a massive guilt complex, who tends to live and wallow in her regrets, and who always assumes that things will go wrong and she and her loved ones will be miserable.

And that makes sense when you look at what they've gone through, respectively. David appears to have had a pretty normal, stable life up to the point he was whisked away to play prince. He's been mostly a pawn in all this, and he got to sleep through the worst of the curse. Snow has been dealing with all this since she was a child, when her mother was poisoned and Cora set her up to feel terrible guilt no matter what she did, since she didn't take the chance to save her mother's life but if she had, she'd have killed someone else. Then there was the beloved stepmother who turned cold on her, her father's murder, being kicked out of her own home and having her death ordered, then learning to fend for herself on her own on the run. And then she learned about Daniel's death and her role in it and blamed herself, and she also has the deaths of all the people who were killed for supporting her on her conscience. The curse was designed to torment her, and she lived through all 28 years of it, being kept in misery for endless, never-changing days, with any ray of hope or happiness quickly snuffed out by Regina. It's kind of a miracle that she's as obnoxiously optimistic as she is.

 

Snow and David also didn't grieve the loss of Emma for 30 years. They woke up from the curse and their last memories of their real selves was sending their newborn away. That newborn doesn't exist anymore. Instead, there is a very angry, closed off woman in her place.

I'm sure they're having as much a case of "does not compute" as Emma has been. Just a moment ago to them they lost their infant, and poof, there's an adult they've been told is their daughter. They have no relationship, no bond that's been built over the years. They didn't even get to spend the intervening years aware that she was out there, recognizing and imagining milestones themselves -- she'd be walking now. I bet she's learned to read now. Boys must be noticing her now -- even if they weren't there for them. Instead, they probably didn't even get to change her first diaper, and the next time they see her, she's all grown up and with her own child. How do you wrap your head around that?

 

And that brings me back to the Regina discussion we were having here earlier. The reason I was discussing that in this thread is that Regina's redemption or contrition and lack thereof really affects all the other relationships on this show, and the fact that she somehow is reconciled with her victims without going through what would seem like a reasonable process actually hurts all these relationships. Snow acts like it's more important to make up with the stepmother who's devoted her entire adult life to tormenting her, who tried to kill her infant daughter and who is the reason Snow is now faced with an adult daughter she didn't get to see grow up than it is for her to really build a relationship with her daughter. How could a mother whose daughter has gone through all that even want to have any kind of friendly relationship with the person responsible for it, especially if that person has never acknowledged the harm that was done or apologized? It's one thing for Snow to be okay with the number of times Regina tried to kill her because she does feel like she wronged Regina, but how can she be okay with the number of times Regina has tried to kill Emma? How can David even be civil to the person who spent all that time tormenting his beloved wife, who tried to keep them apart, and then who tried to kill his daughter and caused him to miss out on her life? The kind of wrong that's been done doesn't even seem to me to be the kind that can be reconciled. Best-case scenario is to accept any apology but stay out of each other's lives. It seems highly improbable that without an apology or even any word that she's over it all and done with the revenge that they'd all be acting like one big happy family together.

[Hookian]

For now, I'm going to stick with what we were shown. What we were shown was that Regina was about to execute all prisoners in the morning. If the writers retcon that part, I'll judge the situation based on how they do it. If the Marian in the dungeon was really Zelena or some other villain in disguise, I'll eat my hat. ;-)

Please don't, I never even implied Marian was some villain in disguise. Marian is Marian but we don't know what happened that night in the original timeline. For all we know Marian escaped and was killed by something/someone while fleeing.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They have no relationship, no bond that's been built over the years.

Well, Mary Margaret had some relationship with Emma. Not the mother/daughter relationship you're thinking of, but I find it strange that Snow's cursed personality never popped back up. After the curse, it was never "We are both" with her, but just her Enchanted Forest self. (Well, post-Bandit Snow) I loved the Mary Margaret and Emma relationship during the curse. I really liked all their scenes together. It bugs me that it really didn't mean anything after S1.

 

 

For now, I'm going to stick with what we were shown. What we were shown was that Regina was about to execute all prisoners in the morning. If the writers retcon that part, I'll judge the situation based on how they do it. If the Marian in the dungeon was really Zelena or some other villain in disguise, I'll eat my hat. ;-)

 

Back on the Marian stuff, I just watched the finale scenes with her again. My theories about her being Zelena or whatever started disintegrating as I watched it. I look at things such as body language, voice tone and word choices, and from that I really started to believe it was just Marian. Right now I really can't predict exactly what will happens circumstantially. I can forecast there'll be loads of drama, but I don't know what will happen with the story itself.

Edited August 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I loved the Mary Margaret and Emma relationship during the curse. I really liked all their scenes together. It bugs me that it really didn't mean anything after S1.

 

Me. Too. And it bugs me to no end that Snow has forgotten (or the writers have forgotten, more likely) that she does in fact know how to connect with Emma. Because she's done it before. Mary Margaret taking Emma in and giving her a home and a family with neither one of them realizing that was really what she was doing was a thing of beauty. Mary Margaret was exactly what Emma needed, someone who would just be there. Someone who wouldn't judge and someone who would know when -- and when not -- to push. Someone who wasn't afraid to call her on her shit but would do so in such a way that it very rarely even felt like she was calling her on her shit. For the first time in her life, Emma had someone to help shoulder the burden and she responded to it. The difference between 1x01/1x02 Emma and 1x18/1x19 Emma is astounding, in terms of how much more relaxed she is and how much she's willing to fight for Henry and Mary Margaret. These people had tunneled under her walls and wormed their way into her heart and it was absolutely lovely.

 

And now it's like a hundred steps backwards. And I could understand the stumbling in season 2 and even in the beginning of season 3, but as 3A and 3B wore on, that stumbling became a pattern. That pattern turned what was once my favorite part about this show into something that made me seethe. It's such a complete 180 on Snow's part that I honestly can't even comprehend it. How is it that she was such a better support system to her daughter when they were only joking about being related?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Rumsy4]

How is it that she was such a better support system to her daughter when they were only joking about being related?

 

In a sense, it's due to changed expectations. Back then--they were friends. But suddenly they realized that they were mother and daughter. Snow desperately wanted to be a Mother, and Emma was having none of it. MM went into "Mother Knows Best" mode, and Emma was still struggling with feeling abandoned. But they still should have dealt with it in 3B. It was a wasted opportunity, and now I feel they swept all those (valid) issues under the rug. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

But they still should have dealt with it in 3B. It was a wasted opportunity, and now I feel they swept all those (valid) issues all under the rug.

 

I can understand why it wasn't the best time to go over those issues because Snow was about to have a baby and Zelena was there, but I agree it could have been nice if it had happened simultaneously with Emma's home arc. It takes me back to S1 when Emma tried to leave town multiple times and MM was always there to give her reasons to stay. (This happened at least twice, in 1x02 and 1x21) We didn't get any of that this time. All we got was the lame "Well that's because you forgot about us!"

 

All that said, I hope they explore Emma and Snow in S4, but I doubt they will. Snow will be busy with her baby, and the writers probably think they don't have to work on it because they think the viewers know they have a good relationship. Emma's home revelation was most likely enough for A&E to write it off as good.

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking about the Emma/Regina relationship today and I've come to the conclusion that much like the disconnect Emma has with her parents, she has the same one with Regina & the Evil Queen. Emma's reactions and willingness to work with Regina make sense if you consider that she doesn't actually see her as the Evil Queen (which we actually see in play several times in the Season 3 finale). Emma doesn't look at her and think this woman is responsible for her lonely and miserable childhood. It does not compute. Intellectually, she knows Regina cast a curse and that her parents sent her away to protect her from it, but emotionally she's still stuck with the thought that she's had for her entire life - that her parents abandoned her on the side of the highway like garbage. That they had a reason for it and that reason is the psychotic Evil Queen is not really registering for her. She even says that what's in the book is just a bunch of stories that she can't connect with - a feeling that was most likely exacerbated by living a completely normal life for the past year. The very first time Emma actually connects Regina and the Evil Queen is when Marian is being paraded around while Regina gleefully claps and cups her ear while getting off on listening to Marian's terror and pleas for mercy (incidentally, if a gif does not exist of this scene with the phrase "Bold and audacious, but not evil" it really should). They even have her express surprise that that's Regina. I mean, how could she reconcile the woman who true love kissed her son and used white magic with the freak show psycho on display in "Snow Drifts"?

 

Of course, none of this explains Snow and David's willingness to include Regina in their lives, but for Emma, it actually does make some sort of sense. Particularly if you add how much weight she gives to Henry's wants/needs into the equation.

Edited August 30, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[ShadowFacts]

 

The very first time Emma actually connects Regina and the Evil Queen is when Marian is being paraded around while Regina gleefully claps and cups her ear while getting off on listening to Marian's terror and pleas for mercy (incidentally, if a gif does not exist of this scene with the phrase "Bold and audacious, but not evil" it really should). They even have her express surprise that that's Regina.

 

I see what you're saying about the disconnection, but Emma did witness plenty of egregiously awful Regina behavior in Storybrooke.  And now that she's seen Evil Queen burn her mother at the stake, she should be back to red alert as far as what Regina could easily revert to.  Emma has been shown to be a savvy bailbondsperson, not a naive babe in the woods, so as to her relationship with Regina, she should tread lightly, to coin a phrase.

[KingOfHearts]

Continuing on ShadowFacts' thought, since Emma has gone head to head with Regina before, she knows exactly how to deal with her and what she's capable of. I think the fact she is a savvy bailbondsperson is why she's not afraid of her. She probably has dealt with many criminals and psychopaths in her job, with Regina being no different. She has outsmarted Regina on many more occasions than one.

I totally agree with KAOSAgent's analysis of Emma's abandonment. I can see why she would blame her parents.

Edited August 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

She probably has dealt with many criminals and psychopaths in her job, with Regina being no different. She has outsmarted Regina on many more occasions than one.

Except most of the criminals and psychopaths Emma faced don't have magic and couldn't turn Emma and her entire family into toads with a snap of their fingers, or level the town with about as much exertion as it takes Emma to go for a long run. Emma *should* tread far more lightly around Regina than she should around her average perp. Regina's far, far more dangerous--and, probably, homicidal--than the people Emma used to track down for a living.

 

This is again where the S2 problem comes in, for me. If Regina had been largely reformed since Emma got to Storybrooke, or even since magic came back, I might agree that Emma doesn't need to show as much caution around Regina. But Regina spent all but like 2 episodes of 2B trying to murder all the Charmings, and before that spent S1 doing a host of nasty things to Emma and her friends (up to and including framing Mary Margaret for murder and trying to put Emma herself into a neverending coma). Even if we discount S1, Emma has firsthand, rather recent experience with Regina trying to murder her and her entire family. Multiple times. So I can't buy this "Emma sees Regina as Regina and not some dangerous murderer" idea. Emma has had enough experience with Regina the dangerous murderer that if she doesn't keep in mind at all times that Regina's a crazy psychopath, she's officially the stupidest character on the show. Emma of all people should be very wary and not all kumbaya about Regina, regardless of who she still blames for growing up orphaned.

 

I also don't know that I'd agree that Emma has outsmarted Regina on a number of different occasions--at least not on her own, without Rumpel's help. It's actually been something I've been thinking about recently--have the good guys had more than like 5 victories on this show that weren't orchestrated by one of the villains? Honestly, I can't really think of many off the top of my head. We tend to talk about it as a problem with the later seasons, but looking back on it, the show has had the consistent problem of only letting the good guys win when they're backed by a villain.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Except most of the criminals and psychopaths Emma faced don't have magic and couldn't turn Emma and her entire family into toads with a snap of their fingers, or level the town with about as much exertion as it takes Emma to go for a long run. Emma *should* tread far more lightly around Regina than she should around her average perp. Regina's far, far more dangerous--and, probably, homicidal--than the people Emma used to track down for a living.

 

Well, now Emma has her own magic where is stronger than Regina's to level the playing field. :)

 

 

I also don't know that I'd agree that Emma has outsmarted Regina on a number of different occasions--at least not on her own, without Rumpel's help.

 

Well, I think Emma has, but the show has allowed Regina to get the upperhand through some handicap. Take for example the Kathryn murder. Emma found the shovel that the shovel shard matched to. Then, for some reason, Regina knew she was down there. The show never gives us why or how, she just does. The show gives Regina this advantage that doesn't come her own merit or intellect. Same went with Pan and Zelena. The only way to beat them is through an act of God that Rumple/Regina are responsible for. (Like Kathryn coming back from the dead, for example.)

 

 

Emma of all people should be very wary and not all kumbaya about Regina, regardless of who she still blames for growing up orphaned.

I agree, 100%. Unlike Snow, Emma being around Regina isn't some ignorant bliss. Emma keeps a very, very close eye on her. She doesn't trust Regina, but she's not afraid to be around her either because she knows how Regina ticks. Snow stays around Regina to accommodate her giant guilt complex. Emma stays around her because not only for Henry, but because Regina can be a useful ally. Emma has definitely judged Regina in the past (Told her she couldn't be with Henry any more The Cricket Game, suspected her for Curse 2 in Witch Hunt, pretty much all of S1).

 

Emma just stays close to Regina to watch her like a hawk. ;)

Edited August 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Well, now Emma has her own magic where is stronger than Regina's to level the playing field. :)

Except when she doesn't, so Regina has to step up and be the strongest white magic wielder, ever, stronger even than Glinda (since Glinda couldn't defeat Zelena).

 

Emma found the shovel that the shovel shard matched to. Then, for some reason, Regina knew she was down there. The show never gives us why or how, she just does.

I thought that was when they found out that Sidney had bugged the sheriff's office, so they'd heard all the conversations and phone calls involved in getting the warrant to officially search for the shovel.

 

I mean, if they'd brought back Neal or Milah, it wouldn't have had the same effect, because the people who would be involved in that triangle aren't crazy. Well, maybe Rumple.

If you give my brain something to analyze, it will analyze it, at great length and detail. So, in the interest of getting some sleep someday or being able to think about something else, here's a fun little mental exercise of analyzing the various potential, past or existing back from the dead triangles:

 

Triangle: Neal, Emma, Hook

Prior Relationship: Neal and Emma -- Happened about twelve years previously, maybe lasted a year or so, were in love and planning a future together until he learned who she was and let her go to jail for his crime in order to "help" her fulfill her destiny. She was left pregnant in jail and ended up with a lot of emotional issues but never entirely got over him and was left with a lot of mixed feelings when she thought he died.

Current Relationship: Emma and Hook -- not even a real relationship at that time, more of a potential relationship. They'd had some adventures together with some flirtation and one kiss. She seemed attracted to him but wasn't ready to get involved. She'd been a big part of his inspiration to turn his life around and had made him realize he might be able to love again.

Complicating Factors: Hook and Neal had apparently become close friends while in Neverland together -- at least, Hook was very fond of him and mourned his death. Hook was previously involved with Neal's mother and looked upon Neal and Neal's son Henry as his last link to his dead lover. Neal is the father of Emma's son.

What Happened: When Hook learned Neal was still alive, he told the others, even though that likely scuttled his chances with Emma, and helped rescue Neal, which ironically required him to confess his love for Emma. There was some squabbling between the two guys, but then Hook declared that he was stepping back because it was best for Henry that his father have a chance to be in his life. But then the curse was reversed and both guys were separated from Emma, and then Neal got his fool self killed again, for real this time, after he wished Emma well in finding her happiness.

 

Triangle: Milah, Hook, Emma

Prior Relationship: Milah and Hook -- they spent at least 6-8 years together about 300 years ago, seemed to truly be in love (enough that she left her family for him). It ended when her (ex?)husband caught up with them and murdered her. She died in Hook's arms, with her dying words being to tell her she loved him, and he devoted the next 300 years of his life to finding a way to get his revenge.

Current Relationship: Emma and Hook -- they've only recently started any kind of romantic relationship but did have a friendship before that. She's been a big influence in his life and has had a lot to do with inspiring him to change. He's managed to work his way past a lot of her emotional walls.

Complicating Factors: Milah is the grandmother of Emma's son and the mother of Emma's former lover.

What Might Happen: Considering that she died in his arms centuries ago, if Milah showed up all of a sudden, I don't think Hook's first question or concern would be about which woman to choose. It would be more like "What the hell is going on here?" But if, say, Milah was only Mostly Dead (like when Charming's heart was crushed) and when she got her burial at sea she went through some underwater portal to a magical land where they put a new heart in her and revived her and if it was a Neverland-like non-aging place, and then she was finally able to find a way out, using her own blood to track her son but instead was taken to her grandson, which then reunited her with Hook, I do think it would throw Hook for a real loop. But it has been hundreds of years, and we don't know enough about him at that time, about her or about them as a couple to know if they'd even still be interested in each other now or if they'd have both changed enough that they don't really want to go back. If she took Hook away from Emma, she might not be able to have a role in Henry's life, so would she repeat her past mistake and think of her own happiness, or would she decide it's better to let things stand as they are and just be around as a friend and grandmother? I think Emma would be pretty torn. She'd want Hook to be happy and she knows how much losing Milah hurt him, so I'm not sure she'd put up a huge fight for him but instead would make it clear she'd support him with no hard feelings, no matter what he chooses, and I think she'd try to be friendly with Milah for Henry's sake because she knows how important family is to Henry. Would Milah be angry at Hook for having spent 300 years on revenge, or would she be angry that he didn't succeed?

 

Triangle: Milah, Rumple, Belle

Past Relationship: Milah and Rumple -- were married for some time, probably at least seven years, more than 300 years ago. Seemed to be loving at first, but she lost respect for him and became very unhappy until she ran away with Hook. Then Rumple found her again and killed her.

Current Relationship: Belle and Rumple -- she started as his prisoner a few years before the curse, then they fell in love but he sent her away and he believed she was dead. After the curse broke, they found each other again, but then he died. When he was revived, they got married.

Complicating Factors: He murdered Milah.

What Might Happen: I doubt Milah and Rumple would have any interest at all in getting back together. But if she did return somehow (see above), the real impact would be on Belle. Would seeing the wife he murdered change the way she saw him, or would she consider the fact that Milah was alive to lessen his crime? I'm sure there'd be some antagonism between the women because Milah would be baffled that Belle would want him, while Belle would probably assume that Milah was terrible and deserved to die because Rumple has a good heart. Would Rumple try to kill Milah again or would he now be able to live and let live? Would Milah want revenge against him?

 

Triangle: Daniel, Regina, Robin

Past Relationship: Daniel and Regina -- they were in love and planning to get married, if they could get away from her mother, probably more than a decade before the curse. Cora found out about it and killed him so Regina would have to marry the king. She believed that this destroyed any chance she ever had of being able to be happy.

Current Relationship: Regina and Robin -- just started seeing each other, but she believes them to be soulmates because of pixie dust.

Complicating Factors: As with Milah, this was someone she saw die, she kept his body around, then had to kill the zombie version of him, so him coming back would certainly raise questions beyond which guy she should pick.

What Might Happen: I bet she'd drop Robin like a hot potato if someone she at all believed to be Daniel showed up. The question would be what Daniel would think of what she's become and what she did in his name. From what we saw of him, he was a pretty decent and gentle sort of person, so if the writers were at all objective, he'd be horrified and disgusted and want nothing to do with her, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

 

Which brings us to:

Triangle: Marian, Robin, Regina

Past Relationship: Marian and Robin -- married and had a kid, he braved the Dark One's castle to find a way to save her life and said he'd have walked through hell for her. Her first thought was to want to return to her family when she was freed from the dungeons, so even if she'd voluntarily left, she wanted to get back to him. He believed her to have died because of something to do with one of his jobs, but it turned out she was captured by Regina and scheduled to be executed. Depending on the timeline, she either was executed or was rescued by Emma and brought to the future.

Current Relationship: Robin and Regina -- They spent a year snarking at each other in the Enchanted Forest, then back in Storybrooke with no memories of that she saw the tattoo that she'd seen on her supposed soulmate when he was revealed by pixie dust, so she gave it a shot. This was maybe a week ago.

Complicating Factors: Depending on the timeline, Regina either executed or planned to execute Marian. At the very least, she arrested and imprisoned her. On the other hand, Robin and Regina were ordained soulmates by pixie dust.

What Might Happen: What should happen is that Robin is seriously icked out that he was dating his wife's would-be killer, and meanwhile the supposedly reformed Regina would be horrified to learn that she was the one who caused so much pain to someone she cared about. But Regina being Regina and this show being this show, she's probably going to come up with some evil plan to get her rival out of the way and keep her own happy ending. The plan will go horribly awry, to the point it endangers herself and others rather than her target, then she'll do something noble to put a stop to it and will be hailed as a hero for saving the town, which will convince Robin and Marian that she really has changed, so Marian will give her blessing for Robin to move on to Regina.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I thought that was when they found out that Sidney had bugged the sheriff's office, so they'd heard all the conversations and phone calls involved in getting the warrant to officially search for the shovel.

 

Thanks, I forgot about that. Regina got extra special help from her cursed lackeys! 

[Mari]

But if she [Milah] did return somehow (see above), the real impact would be on Belle. Would seeing the wife he murdered change the way she saw him, or would she consider the fact that Milah was alive to lessen his crime? I'm sure there'd be some antagonism between the women because Milah would be baffled that Belle would want him, while Belle would probably assume that Milah was terrible and deserved to die because Rumple has a good heart.

I hadn't thought much about it, because I figured Milah was thoroughly dead, instead of just mostly dead, but you're right.

 

Belle would be convinced Milah was worse than Cora or Regina, because why else would Milah be conspiring with Hook to convince Belle that Rumple killed her?  And if Milah did convince Belle Rumple killed her, Belle would automatically go to "You have to be terrible if Rumple had to kill you."

 

That relationship is creepy.  Belle is creepy.  (I shouldn't need to state that Rumple is creepy, but don't want people to think I'm just blaming the woman in the relationship.  Therefore:  Rumple is super creepy.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

That relationship is creepy.  Belle is creepy.  (I shouldn't need to state that Rumple is creepy, but don't want people to think I'm just blaming the woman in the relationship.  Therefore:  Rumple is super creepy.)

 

Rumple, by his own nature, is creepy. Belle is a Disney princess who has many fans who adore her intelligence, grace, and courage. But Belle in Once is... borderline sadistic. I don't think she even has a problem with Rumple being dark. In fact, she said herself she loved it. ("I love all of Rumple, even the dark parts.") She didn't mind all the horrendous acts Rumple committed when she was Lacey, either. It's almost like she lives in a world of denial where she seems him and herself as good, but in reality they're both just creepy sociopaths. Forget abuse - it's the Dark One and his lovely assistant. She likes it.

Edited August 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I hadn't thought much about it, because I figured Milah was thoroughly dead, instead of just mostly dead, but you're right.

Oh, I'm pretty sure she's entirely dead. This was just a hypothetical exercise to play with the ideas of what various couples would do if the supposedly dead exes of one of them suddenly showed up. It kind of got silly in this instance because it would be such a huge stretch for Milah to show up again that the triangle would be the least of their concerns if she did. If Milah came waltzing into town after 300 years, I doubt that the first thought through Hook's mind would be "Oh no, how will I choose between her and Emma?" Probably more like "Wow, that was a bad batch of rum," followed soon by "What dark magic is this?"

 

That relationship is creepy.  Belle is creepy.  (I shouldn't need to state that Rumple is creepy, but don't want people to think I'm just blaming the woman in the relationship.  Therefore:  Rumple is super creepy.)

I would say that Rumple is creepy and Belle is deluded, but it's not like Belle doesn't know what a sadist he is. I'm still annoyed that we never got any post-Lacey reaction from her to what she saw him doing and what she participated in with him while she was Lacey. She learns that he murdered his wife and watches him nearly beat a man to death, and she heads out with him that night, without seeming to have any issues. She watches him go full-hog sadistic when he learns she in her altered state finds it a turn on, and when she's back to herself she doesn't seem to give it a second thought, never has a "we are both" issue with those memories. So it seems to go beyond deluded to where she may be the worst villain on the show because she hides it all under a veneer of goodness and thinks she can detect when someone has a good heart when actually what she's drawn to are dark hearts, and that's what she sees as good.

[queenbee]

I would say that Rumple is creepy and Belle is deluded, but it's not like Belle doesn't know what a sadist he is. I'm still annoyed that we never got any post-Lacey reaction from her to what she saw him doing and what she participated in with him while she was Lacey. She learns that he murdered his wife and watches him nearly beat a man to death, and she heads out with him that night, without seeming to have any issues. She watches him go full-hog sadistic when he learns she in her altered state finds it a turn on, and when she's back to herself she doesn't seem to give it a second thought, never has a "we are both" issue with those memories. So it seems to go beyond deluded to where she may be the worst villain on the show because she hides it all under a veneer of goodness and thinks she can detect when someone has a good heart when actually what she's drawn to are dark hearts, and that's what she sees as good.

I remember in pre-Season 3 interviews A & E stated that there would be an impact/fall-out/repercussions from Lacey. However through the whole of Season 3 there was no evidence that the writers remembered Lacey at all or made any effort to explore how the events of Lacey impacted on Belle. This highlights, for me, the significant issue with the writing of this show, which is so focussed on moving characters from one plot point to another that they have no space to explore consequences for characters. (By consequences I'm not referring to punishments, I'm referring to showing the impact of decisions and events on each character.) These leads to all the disconnects between what the writers think they are showing and what they are actually showing.

 

A secondary issue is around editing and how that impacts on the less-fleshed out characters like Belle. For example, in the extended scene between Belle and Zelena, it was clear that the shop was closed, Belle was not selling items in the shop, and Belle was willing to assist people in finding heir possessions. However in the edited scene screened in the episode, it appeared that Belle had opened the shop and was selling Rumple's ill-gotten gains presumably for her own benefit. I'm only using Belle's character as an example here, but these issues pervade the stories of each character. 

[Kaw912]

But Belle in Once is... borderline sadistic.

You mean masochistic, but yes, I totally agree. It boggles my mind that the Rumple/Belle relationship has so many fans. I guess it's tranference of affection for the actors onto the characters and the relationship between the two. That's the only way I can explain it.

The whole concept of Milah returning from the dead is both giving me a headache and making me think of "Days of Our Lives," neither of which are good things. This show really needs to be done with love triangle because it does not do them well. I for one am hoping Regina/Robin/Marion is mercifully brief.

[FurryFury]

ou mean masochistic, but yes, I totally agree. It boggles my mind that the Rumple/Belle relationship has so many fans. I guess it's tranference of affection for the actors onto the characters and the relationship between the two. That's the only way I can explain it.

 

Nah, it's the classic "the love of a good girl redeems a bad boy" scenario. It's been around for centuries.

[stealinghome]

To be fair, I still really like S1 Rumbelle. After Snowing, they were my *jam* in the first season. I blame my lingering affection for them in S2/S3, despite the super creepy and problematic elements, on the relationship (and what could have been) we saw in S1.

[Shanna Marie]

You mean masochistic, but yes, I totally agree.

I don't think she is masochistic, though, because she isn't suffering. Rumple treats her well and doesn't take his cruelty out on her. But she is borderline sadistic if she isn't at all bothered by his cruelty to others or if she isn't at all bothered with the way she actually was sadistic when she thought she was Lacey. She was actually egging him on in his violence and cruelty then.

 

Snow/Mary Margaret comes closer to being masochistic, since she seems happiest when she's suffering and can't handle being triumphant. She has to look for something else to worry about or has to feel bad about winning. She can't even handle her enemies suffering.

[KingOfHearts]

 

To be fair, I still really like S1 Rumbelle. After Snowing, they were my *jam* in the first season. I blame my lingering affection for them in S2/S3, despite the super creepy and problematic elements, on the relationship (and what could have been) we saw in S1.

 

I agree. Even some of S2 Rumpbelle was okay. Take the flashbacks in Lacey, for example. Belle called Rumple on his crap and let Robin go. She wasn't looking the other way or instantly forgiving Rumple. She called Rumple out on his badness and didn't let it slide. S2 Rumpbelle was horrible in other areas though - like in The Crocodile. One moment it's "I never want to see you again!" then the next it's "Want to get a cheeseburger?"

 

Belle has just taken more delight in darkness as the show as progressed. The line about liking Rumple's dark parts coupled with no problems about Lacey felt like sadism to me.

Edited August 31, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

Even if we discount S1, Emma has firsthand, rather recent experience with Regina trying to murder her and her entire family. Multiple times. So I can't buy this "Emma sees Regina as Regina and not some dangerous murderer" idea. Emma has had enough experience with Regina the dangerous murderer that if she doesn't keep in mind at all times that Regina's a crazy psychopath, she's officially the stupidest character on the show. Emma of all people should be very wary and not all kumbaya about Regina, regardless of who she still blames for growing up orphaned.

 

My original post was meant as an attempt to address some of the things I've seen (not necessarily here) where people question why Emma would ever consider hanging out with the woman who essentially ruined her life. Bringing in all the other stuff muddled what I was trying to say about that specific piece of Emma's history with the Evil Queen because I really do think a big part of Emma never addressing it is because she does not connect Regina with the Evil Queen. However, Emma is in fact very aware of how dangerous Regina is and goes out of her way to try to talk down the crazy. That said, there actually is a difference between the crazy Regina that Emma has seen and the totally off the chain sadistic psychopath that is the Evil Queen.

 

If we look at Season 2, Emma was not around when Regina was threatening everyone to get Henry back and I'm not sure that everything was shared with her later. She talked to Archie and was told that Regina was trying to change and was willing to give her a chance, but was still wary of Regina hanging with Henry. Then there was the frame up and Regina backslid, but there was reason for Regina to blame Emma & Co for not believing her. Emma was out of town again during the Johanna murder - Was this incident shared? I don't know. And then Cora died and when Regina went off the rails and targeted Snow, again it was for a reason (and a much better one than she told a secret). Since Regina mindwiped Henry and Hook was not on anyone's team but his own, I'm not sure if what Regina was planning to do with the failsafe was ever completely revealed or understood and given the chaos surrounding the whole thing, I'm not sure Emma would have processed it anyway.

 

The Evil Queen targeted people randomly and seemed to enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on everyone just because, the Regina Emma knows seems slightly more sane because she picks targets based on motives Emma can understand. In Season 3, all of those targets aligned with Emma's, so her inclusion makes sense. Though I will point out that Emma calls her a monster and also expects Regina to jump ship once Zelena's plans are discovered due to the very possibility that Snow will never be born, so it's not like Emma isn't aware of things. She just doesn't feel the need to rock the boat so long as Regina is playing nice.

[kitticup]

 

I would say that Rumple is creepy and Belle is deluded, but it's not like Belle doesn't know what a sadist he is. I'm still annoyed that we never got any post-Lacey reaction from her to what she saw him doing and what she participated in with him while she was Lacey. She learns that he murdered his wife and watches him nearly beat a man to death, and she heads out with him that night, without seeming to have any issues. She watches him go full-hog sadistic when he learns she in her altered state finds it a turn on, and when she's back to herself she doesn't seem to give it a second thought, never has a "we are both" issue with those memories. So it seems to go beyond deluded to where she may be the worst villain on the show because she hides it all under a veneer of goodness and thinks she can detect when someone has a good heart when actually what she's drawn to are dark hearts, and that's what she sees as good.

 

I agree with this.  I would like to see this aspect of Belle be explored.  I want her to see that she is becoming darker.  It would be best if it is Rumple that sees it and he decides that he needs to  break up with her permanently rather than let her become corrupted.

 

I would love it if someone throws in her face what a hypocrite she is in expecting others to forgive or ignore all of Rumple's misdeeds without him showing even the slightest bit of contrition or regret let alone justice but that she expects others (Regina and Hook) to  apologize to her.

[Shanna Marie]

This morning I came up with a term for Belle: Spectator sadist. I can't imagine her joyously beating someone to death, but even if she doesn't find Rumple's violence to be an actual turn-on, she certainly doesn't see it as a turn-off. There aren't too many women who would agree to go out on a mystery date with a man they'd just learned murdered his last wife and whom they'd just watched nearly beat a man to death, and yet after getting that revelation from Hook and watching Rumple nearly kill Hook with great relish, she's in his car with him that evening, not sure where they're going as they head to the town line. Even if that wasn't a deal-breaker, you'd think it would at least give her pause of the "I need some time to think" variety. Instead, it didn't seem to change her opinion of Rumple at all.

 

But because she wants to consider herself a good person, she has to rewrite the narrative in her head to rationalize staying with someone like that (and possibly even enjoying the things he does), so she's come up with this "superpower" of being able to see into someone's heart and tell if they're good or bad. Because she "sees" that Rumple's heart is good, she doesn't feel she has to worry about his actions, since to her he's good deep down inside and that's all that matters. Then she can cast the blame on his victims, who deserve the bad treatment because they have dark hearts, and then Rumple proves he's good by not actually killing them. So, to her, there's no problem with Rumple having cut off Hook's hand and then beating him nearly to death because Rumple has a good heart and Hook has a bad heart, and it's even Hook's fault he's being beaten because he's trying to goad good-hearted Rumple into darkness. Rumple has to stop beating him not because beating a person is wrong but because that's just what Hook wants him to do to make good Rumple go dark.

 

And then there's the way Lacey found the violence an actual turn-on, and yet Belle has never reacted to that at all, never been grossed-out by what she saw Rumple doing when he didn't have Belle to hold him back.

 

Archie could get a paper or two out of observing her and her relationship with Rumple.

[stealinghome]

To be fair, *I* think Hook deserved every inch of that beating, and I'm not even the woman he had tried to kill (twice) that day.

[KingOfHearts]

I wonder why Belle tries to appear so "good", and what her reasoning is behind it. Snow and Charming both cling to goodness because their parents taught them to. Did Belle have a mother like that as well? My question for her is what moral standard is she going by? If she enjoys the dark parts of Rumple, why does she choose in live in denial about it?

Edited September 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Is it possible, though, that loving even Rumpel's dark parts (I think enjoying is too strong a word) is part of Belle's "we are both" now with Lacey? That seems a distinctly Lacey characteristic to me.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Is it possible, though, that loving even Rumpel's dark parts (I think enjoying is too strong a word) is part of Belle's "we are both" now with Lacey? That seems a distinctly Lacey characteristic to me.

 

That's the only thing that makes much sense to me.  In the Enchanted Forest, she was presented as a pretty idealistic and selfless person.  Yes, she craved adventure and to be someone in the world, but she wanted to help people in trouble, like Philip and maybe even Grumpy, in addition to her father's kingdom.  I think she has innate goodness, mixed with the Lacey persona, and big doses of denial as well.

[stealinghome]

Agreed. I mean, my thinking is that we never heard Belle say anything along those lines before Lacey came about--throughout 2A she was steadfastly on the "let's work to make you a better person" train, and she was very willing to support him in that endeavor, but also to shut him down when he was being bad.* We didn't get a whole lot of Belle-as-Belle in 2B or 3A, but it's just striking to me that that line came after Belle spent time as Lacey (who clearly got off on Rumpel's dark side). Eh, I'm probably putting way more thought into this than the writers--it was probably just a bad line--but still. I wonder if they could use that route to salvage some of Rumbelle.

 

*again I would note that Belle didn't know about a good portion of the sketchy stuff he did in 2A and early 2B; from her POV, he was being really reformed.

[KingOfHearts]

The writers seemed to have ditched the "We Are Both" concept after Frankenstein's breakdown in early 2B. I really like the Lacey theory, but it seems to me on the show that the characters always totally abandon their cursed personalities and go straight for their real selves. Nothing that happened while they were cursed mattered any more. I find it funny how the writers completely forget past events then only bring them up when it makes a funny joke or accompanies what they want.

 

 

Eh, I'm probably putting way more thought into this than the writers--it was probably just a bad line--but still. I wonder if they could use that route to salvage some of Rumbelle.

 

If only their writing was as clever as S1's. ;)

Edited September 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

But was Belle really cursed? When she fell over the line, she was stripped of her Belle memories, but didn't have any others because none had been implanted in her (or maybe crazy amnesiac woman was her punishment in the asylum?). It was only until later when Regina came along and used a trigger to give her the Lacey persona. It was very similar to amnesiac David and the windmill triggering false memories. Belle was only Lacey for what like a week or two at most? I don't see that as really sticking with her personality in terms of the "we are both" idea that the other Storybrooke residents faced.  

 

However, she should be completely and utterly horrified that she was cool with any of it. I mean, she encouraged Rumpel to kill Henry! Not that I blame her on that one, but a man who is so willing to just run out and kill a child, especially when he knows that the death of that child would devastate his own son, ought to give her serious qualms about continuing any relationship with him. That's pretty much as rotten a heart as you can get. That Belle and Rumpel never once addressed any of his actions during the Lacey period is a very serious problem. 

[Rumsy4]

However, she should be completely and utterly horrified that she was cool with any of it. I mean, she encouraged Rumpel to kill Henry! Not that I blame her on that one, but a man who is so willing to just run out and kill a child, especially when he knows that the death of that child would devastate his own son, ought to give her serious qualms about continuing any relationship with him. That's pretty much as rotten a heart as you can get. That Belle and Rumpel never once addressed any of his actions during the Lacey period is a very serious problem.

The problem is that Belle thinks she is Rumple's conscience, and is okay with it. Once she regained her memories, she simply assumed that Rumple wouldn't kill Henry. And the next thing she knows, Neal is "dead", and Rumple is off to rescue Henry. He comes back, and sacrifices himself to save "all of Storybrooke", according to her. She seems to think it's a moot point.

So what happens when Belle finds out about the dagger, and maybe leaves him temporarily? What if a situation comes up where the prophecy about Henry being the cause of Rumple's downfall becomes relevant again? With Neal dead, and Belle gone, will Rumple be tempted to kill his grandson again? Is Belle then morally obligated to tell Emma and Regina about the "swing" incident?

Edited September 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Amerilla]

I mean, my thinking is that we never heard Belle say anything along those lines before Lacey came about--throughout 2A she was steadfastly on the "let's work to make you a better person" train, and she was very willing to support him in that endeavor, but also to shut him down when he was being bad.* We didn't get a whole lot of Belle-as-Belle in 2B or 3A, but it's just striking to me that that line came after Belle spent time as Lacey (who clearly got off on Rumpel's dark side). Eh, I'm probably putting way more thought into this than the writers--it was probably just a bad line--but still. I wonder if they could use that route to salvage some of Rumbelle.

 

I think a lot of it comes down the different ways we can interpret the line in QM about how she loves him "All of him. Even the parts that belong to the darkness." I don't see that as any dramatic departure from her position all along, even going back as far as 'Skin Deep.' From the beginning, she's seen the man inside the "monster," she sees a humanity that darkness and evil had "taken root" in.

 

To me, it's more about how Belle contrasts with other people who have passed through Rumpel's life. Nealfire loved his father, but hated the darkness. Cora loved only the darkness. Milah's hatred of his cowardice obliterated whatever love she once had for him. They have tended to view him through the lense of his worst aspects. Belle sees the destructive parts of his personality as part of the package, but she recognizes that these are things that could potentially change if he can be made to see that he has the ability to live without the 'crutch' of magic.

 

That actually fits better with the ethos of the show, which views Regina and Rumpel as addicts, decent people corrupted by magic and power (in part to justify their continued survival, long after the masses should have grabbed the pitchforks and held a Community BBQ). People who love addicts or the mentally ill are faced with a set of equally unpleasant options. Walk away. Or "love the sinner but hate the sin." Or live within the hope that "this time, things will be different." If you genuinely love someone who is sick and who can't seem to make themselves well, walking away is the least likely option. Especially for someone like Belle. Walking away might help her, but it doesn't help him and it doesn't help other people, and helping other people has been a key motivation for her since her arrival in S1.    

 

It may be semantics, Rumsy4, but I don't think Belle sees herself as Rumpel's "conscience." She doesn't tell him what to do or how to function so much as she points at the different paths and urges him to take the better, braver one. But the choices are his. That parallels her own early determination to choose her own path in life, which for her involved something more than a stultifying arranged marriage in an ogre-infested village.

 

Belle was only Lacey for what like a week or two at most? I don't see that as really sticking with her personality in terms of the "we are both" idea that the other Storybrooke residents faced.

 

 

That's been my feeling: that Lacey wasn't an aspect of Belle - she was a custom-made punishment for Rumpel. From what little we saw of Belle in hospital, after the initial fright wore off, she had no memories at all (indicating that Regina had not really given her one during the Curse, other than Asylum Girl #1), but she still had Belle's core personality. Regina's cursed matchbook stripped that away and replaced it with what was essentially a mirror of all of Rumpel's bad qualities and none of Belle's positive qualities. It was a win-win for Regina, because he'd either be hurt by the fact that Lacey wouldn't love him for anything other than his power, or he'd be distracted by Lacey leading him astray while Regina put Operation Kill Everyone into motion. Both before and after Lacey, Belle herself has never displayed approval or arousal over Rumpel's violence (much less enjyoment), nor has she ever seemed impressed by his magical ability or asked to benefit from his willingness to give her material comforts or status.

 

Is Belle then morally obligated to tell Emma and Regina about the "swing" incident?

 

Does Belle even know about the swing incident? She wasn't there. Regina and Emma found out Rumpel thought he had to kill Henry while they were in Neverland, and they know he set that aside to help rescue Henry, so I don't know finding out how close he came to carrying things out would change much.

 

There aren't too many women who would agree to go out on a mystery date with a man they'd just learned murdered his last wife and whom they'd just watched nearly beat a man to death, and yet after getting that revelation from Hook and watching Rumple nearly kill Hook with great relish, she's in his car with him that evening, not sure where they're going as they head to the town line. Even if that wasn't a deal-breaker, you'd think it would at least give her pause of the "I need some time to think" variety. Instead, it didn't seem to change her opinion of Rumple at all.

 

An ongoing struggle with the show at this is point (and not just with Belle) is how to weight the actions of characters when you know the show isn't showing things in service of the PLOTPLOTPLOT. I have a hard time seeing Belle's lack of reaction to learning about Milah in "The Outsider" as saying anything about Belle, because it was painfully clear that all the writers cared about was making sure she was standing at the Town Line with her back to Hook at the close of the epsiode, and Belle and Rumple have almost never been together and themselves since that moment - and because the PLOTPLOTPLOT has moved on, Milah is mostly a moot issue for both Rumpel and Hook, and by extention, Belle. (As to the beating: since Hook had beaten her before, and had threatened her with violence twice already that day, and she still saved him. That she didn't sit around wringing her hands about how horrible it was that Rumpel had just almost killed someone who had tried to kill her matters very little on balance.)

 

There's more to it than that, which I'll post over on the All-Seasons thread in a bit, but basically: this is a show that just married off two people that we've never seen have an uninterrupted meal together.  That's just straight-up crappy writing.

[Shanna Marie]

As to the beating: since Hook had beaten her before, and had threatened her with violence twice already that day, and she still saved him. That she didn't sit around wringing her hands about how horrible it was that Rumpel had just almost killed someone who had tried to kill her matters very little on balance.

While Hook certainly deserved a good thrashing at that point, I still think that in Belle's shoes I would have been seriously freaked-out to see Rumple's loss of control and glee in beating a man who wasn't even fighting back. Add that to the revelation that Rumple had killed his wife and Belle's supposed character trait of trying to see both sides of the story and see the good in people, and you'd think her perception of the situation would be at least slightly altered. I know they wanted to get Belle to the town line with her back to Hook for PLOTPLOTPLOT, but they did so by damaging Belle's character. I know I wouldn't have gotten in that car with someone if I'd just learned he'd killed his wife. I could deal with a man defending me from someone who was about to hurt me, but I'd be seriously disturbed if he continued the beating long after the immediate danger was over when the person wasn't fighting back, and I'd be really bothered if he seemed to be enjoying it that much. The murdered wife would be a total dealbreaker for me unless there were extreme extenuating circumstances (he killed her to save someone else), but even with just that beating I would have needed time away from him to think and wouldn't have wanted to see him again for a while, and then the next time I saw him it would be for a serious talk in a public place. When none of that affected Belle's view of Rumple at all and she happily got in the car with him for a trip to the town line (without even any worry that he was the one planning to wipe her memory so she wouldn't remember what she'd just seen and learned), I lost most of whatever respect I still had for her.

[KingOfHearts]

Lacey still constitutes as We Are Both because even though she was Lacey for only a week, she has memories of being her her entire life.

In that week Lacey saw Rumple do heinous acts that Belle thought he was passed of. None of it bothered her at all. Belle has had many, many red flags, and she either completely ignores them or chooses to forget about them after five minutes.

She believes he's "changed" to fit her fantasy that he's the hero in her story. She did see and know bad things that he did. Ignorance isn't at play here - it's denial. It's her choice to look the other way so she can feel safe.

Every other love interest Rumple has ever had he either killed or was responsible for her death. With the dagger and killing Zelena we know Rumple hasn't changed a bit. Belle is next.

[Amerilla]

When none of that affected Belle's view of Rumple at all and she happily got in the car with him for a trip to the town line (without even any worry that he was the one planning to wipe her memory so she wouldn't remember what she'd just seen and learned), I lost most of whatever respect I still had for her.

 

And that's your prerogative, obviously. Myself, I still tend to err on the side of not blaming the characters for what are obviously the flaws of scripting, editing, and pacing. it's the fine line between "we can only go on what where shown" and "since we clearly aren't being shown stuff, what do we have to go on?" In this case, you have to wonder if the shooting script contained a bridge scene between Rumbelle leaving the JR and arriving at the Town Line (since time obviously passes between the scenes) where there was an exchange or question about Milah? Or if Rumpel side-stepped and asked her to go with him?  Did she go with him "happily," as you describe it, or because she was asked to go and was thinking she'd had time to mull over the implications of what she'd seen and heard that day while he was gone? (She actually wasn't going to see him again for a while, because he had no idea where Bae was at this point in the story.) Just on a continuity issue, I wondered if Rumpel was just going to drive off and let Belle walk back to town in if he successfully managed to get across with his memory intact, or if they had talked about what would happen if he crossed and was suddenly a very confused Mr. Gold? There's too much we don't know for me to somehow write her off as heartless or sadistic or villainous or deluded.  

 

Lacey still constitutes as We Are Both because even though she was Lacey for only a week, she has memories of being her her entire life.

 

So what? The show essentially forgot "we are both" about four minutes after "We Are Both" aired. An interesting question of duality in human nature morphed almost instantly into "well, here were have antibiotics and indoor plumbing." Characters almost never reference their cursed personas or seem affected or influenced by them, unless the plot randomly requires it. Why should they? They have memories of a fake life that they now know is fake, and during the 28 years of the curse, they didn't really seem to form memories at all. Belle isn't even "both" technically - she's four. She's original-recipe Belle, Asylum-Cursed-Belle, Town Line Memory Wipe Belle and Lacey. So if the show really took the idea of cursed personas seriously, she should be leading the pack of characters that should be sitting in a corner, drooling on herself. 

 

Belle is next.

 

There you go. The problem of Belle solves itself.

Edited September 2, 2014 by stacey
Fixing quotes

[YaddaYadda]

Belle is the woman who thinks she can change a man or that he'll change for her because she loves him and he loves her.  I don't think he loves her as much as she loves him and I think at the end of the day she enables his behavior because she so wants to believe the best in him.

 

Is it too much to ask that she'll tell him to take a hike?  I doubt she'll be able to have a rebound relationship because Rumple would likely beat the crap out of them with his cane or magic them into a toad.  I hope the dagger business blows the whole thing wide open.  I don't want them to gloss that over where she leaves for 30 seconds and comes back all understanding and forgiving.

[Rumsy4]

 

Every other love interest Rumple has ever had he either killed or was responsible for her death. With the dagger and killing Zelena we know Rumple hasn't changed a bit. Belle is next.

 

Exactly! I DON'T think Belle is next, but that is problematic in and of itself. It suggests that Belle is somehow better than the other women Rumple murdered (as though they deserved to be murdered). OR that Rumple deserves a prize for refusing to murder Belle (if she breaks away from him, that is). If Belle really does leave him for more than 30 seconds, Hook had better stay away from Belle. Rumple is insecure and crazy enough to go after any man who sneezes in Belle's direction. 

 

 

I don't think he loves her as much as she loves him and I think at the end of the day she enables his behavior because she so wants to believe the best in him.

 

I agree. At the end of Season 2, he refused to help Emma and the Charmings stop the trigger from destroying Storybrooke because he thought Neal was dead. He was ready to let Belle die along with him. He sacrificed himself to save Belle and Neal from Pan later on, but who knows what he might have done if Neal had not been in the picture? And now, he's married Belle under a huge deception. It's hard for me to believe that they are still a True Love couple. It cheapens the value of True Love as how it is presented in the Show. Oh, what am I saying--pixie dust already made it cheap. 

[Shanna Marie]

I was just using the incident with Hook as an example because it encapsulates all the problems into one or two scenes. If there was a missing scene in which we saw Belle talk to Rumple about what happened to his wife that would have affected what came next, we should have seen it. But her behavior here is entirely consistent with everything else we've seen since "Skin Deep." She knew he was torturing Robin Hood and decided that the fact that he didn't kill Robin meant he was a good man (a good man wouldn't have been torturing in the first place). Then there was the stuff with Hook and learning about Milah. Then there was all the stuff she observed as Lacey. She apparently knew about Rumple nearly beating her father to death because she mentioned before the wedding that he'd forgiven Rumple. How many times does she have to witness or hear about him beating someone nearly to death or torturing someone or killing someone before she stops thinking of him as a good man or someone whose flaws only make him more loveable?

[stealinghome]

Exactly! I DON'T think Belle is next, but that is problematic in and of itself. It suggests that Belle is somehow better than the other women Rumple murdered (as though they deserved to be murdered). OR that Rumple deserves a prize for refusing to murder Belle (if she breaks away from him, that is). If Belle really does leave him for more than 30 seconds, Hook had better stay away from Belle. Rumple is insecure and crazy enough to go after any man who sneezes in Belle's direction.

I don't know, Rumpel let Belle walk away in 2A and as far as we know didn't do anything other than go about his normal life...and I'm sure that a few men in town--Sneezy, at least--did, in fact, sneeze in Belle's direction. (Rumpel did beat up Hook but that's because Hook, yaknow, tried to kill Belle twice. And then shot her and caused her to lose all her memories. I give him a pass on that one.) I think maybe we're overblowing Rumpel's track record here.

 

Also, I don't think the show is at all saying that Belle is "better" than Milah. That's something I never, ever took from the show--I think its treatment of Milah was pretty evenhanded, edging into sympathetic. Quite frankly, I think the show simply is saying that Rumpel never truly loved Milah (not that that excuses his viciously murdering her, of course it doesn't) and truly does love Belle. (The problem, as with Regina's various and sundry murders, is that the show doesn't really see a problem with Rumpel murdering Milah. But we've talked that one to death already.)

[Rumsy4]

Rumple viciously beat the man who was kissing Lacey with her consent. So I don't think I'm being too harsh on Rumple. And saying that Rumple won't kill Belle because he really loves her (and she him), unlike Milah, is also problematic to me.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

Quite frankly, I think the show simply is saying that Rumpel never truly loved Milah (not that that excuses his viciously murdering her, of course it doesn't) and truly does love Belle.

 

I'm pretty sure Rumple truly loved Cora, too. We all know how creepy that relationship was. 

[Dani-Ellie]

From the "Ariel" thread:

 

Snow gets a lot of hate for her Echo Cave speech, but upon rewatching and seeing it again in context, I don't think it's that bad.

 

I don't hate Snow's Echo Cave speech in and of itself. As a matter of fact, I agree with it. I understand her feeling cheated out of the parental milestones because she was. I understand her wanting to experience her own baby's firsts, because of course she should. My problem, like so very many of my problems with this show, is the lack of follow-through.

 

Not once did we see Snow approach Emma and ask if she was okay. Snow spends the rest of "Ariel" and half of the next seething at Charming because of his secret, but never once did she ever stop to think that maybe Emma was upset by the secret she told. And when Emma tries to get mommy and daddy to make up, Snow snaps at her with a remark about inherited family traits without thinking that maybe it's a little insensitive to snark about such things because up until like, a couple of months ago, Emma didn't have any family to inherit traits from.

 

Yeah, Emma seems okay, but Emma always seems okay. Emma buries, Emma compartmentalizes. If we'd seen Snow asking if she was okay and Emma saying yeah, I'd be less peeved, but where Snow didn't even take the four seconds it would have taken to ask her? It's insensitive. Add that to "happily" staying in Neverland without a second thought to Emma (and where, I hate to tell you, Snow, but you can never have the second baby there, either) and not even bothering to search for a loophole to stay with her, and it's a big giant freakin' mess where it seems to me, Snow has kind of written Emma off ... after Emma admitted she still feels like the orphan she grew up as, which Snow had promised to help her with.

 

Because let's be honest for a second, here. If Snow hadn't had the option of staying in Neverland with Charming, you can bet your ass she would have been searching for that loophole to bring him back with her. And yes, Charming is Snow's True Love, and I get that, but at the same time, I find it very disheartening to discover that "I will always find you" does not extend to the entire Charming family.

 

The Echo Cave itself isn't the problem. It's all the stuff that came afterward ... or didn't happen afterward but should have, as the case may be.