Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

 

The Echo Cave itself isn't the problem. It's all the stuff that came afterward ... or didn't happen afterward but should have, as the case may be.

 

I agree that it's not the Echo Cave speech itself that's the problem, but rather what came of it. Snow said many nice things about Emma in the speech. I can totally understand how Snow felt cheated out of raising a child.

 

But, in addition to what Dani-ellie said about Emma's reaction, there's also Snow's lack of relationship with Emma after it. After that point, Snow basically gave up on building a relationship with Emma. Her efforts that were wonderful in Lost Girl became totally absent from the speech onward. It was as if Snow said, "I don't want Emma, I only want a baby." She didn't give a crap about what Emma thought, even when she planned to stay with David on the island. Then later in the Missing Year, she didn't show any desire to be with Emma until her replacement baby was in possible danger.

 

To me the Echo Speech was the point where Emma and Snow's relationship officially got turned off. The speech itself was fine, but it was what followed it that had me shaking my head. 

Edited September 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Thinking back on the Belle situation, I've decided that if somehow I did learn that my boyfriend had killed his wife 300 years ago, it might not be an automatic dealbreaker, since things could have changed in that amount of time. A lot would depend on the circumstances, how he feels about it now, what he's learned since then, how I learned about it and how that fits into the rest of our relationship. A big, long talk would be required, though, before things continued.

 

But I still think that in Belle's shoes that revelation would have been the final straw, considering that he was evasive when she asked what happened to his wife, she had to learn what really happened from his enemy, and he still seemed to be blaming his enemy for his own actions rather than taking any personal responsibility for what happened in his marriage or to his wife. Then you add this ultimate act of domestic violence to the fact that their relationship started with him keeping her in the dungeon, using her as a slave and complaining about her crying about missing her home and the fact that she's repeatedly seen him lose his temper and go insane with physical violence when someone crosses him or he doesn't get his way. Girlfriend needs an intervention, stat.

[queenbee]

Thinking back on the Belle situation, I've decided that if somehow I did learn that my boyfriend had killed his wife 300 years ago, it might not be an automatic dealbreaker, since things could have changed in that amount of time. A lot would depend on the circumstances, how he feels about it now, what he's learned since then, how I learned about it and how that fits into the rest of our relationship. A big, long talk would be required, though, before things continued.

This is what should of happened, if the writers cared at all about character development. But I think they skipped it because they wanted Belle and Rumple together at the town line, and they wanted them to be happy so that it hurt all the more for Rumple to lose Belle. Plotplotplot.

[ShadowFacts]

This makes me think that Belle will cut ties when she learns about the dagger, contrary to what I had been assuming.  Gold should be plenty embittered about the loss of Bae, but he has his new wife to temper that a little.  If she leaves him, all hell can break loose.

[Curio]

This makes me think that Belle will cut ties when she learns about the dagger, contrary to what I had been assuming.

I'm rooting for Belle to walk away from Rumple only because the girl needs to have some semblance of self respect. But I still really want them to have this conversation...

 

Rumple: "Really? This is your last straw?"

Belle: "Yes! You lied to me! I trusted you and you manipulated me."

Rumple: "I've kept you as my prisoner, I have yelled at you, I murdered my previous wife, I cut off a man's body part and kept it as a prize, I've killed people and destroyed lives, I contemplated murdering my own grandson, and I beat up your dad. But this is what crosses the line?"

Belle: "Yes!"

Rumple: "...Okay. Just double checking."

Edited September 2, 2014 by Curio

[Hookian]

Marian being referred to as a "detour" is hilarious.

[Shanna Marie]

But I think they skipped it because they wanted Belle and Rumple together at the town line, and they wanted them to be happy so that it hurt all the more for Rumple to lose Belle.

The really easy way to have avoided the problem would have been for Rumple to come to Belle's rescue and start attacking Hook before Hook got the chance to tell her what really happened to Milah. That way, Belle's just being rescued from the threatening pirate and has no reason to think twice about what Rumple does to him. She doesn't come across as victim-blaming to consider Hook as being the one with the dark heart compared to Rumple's good heart even after learning that Hook was really the victim in the Rumple vs. Hook scenario and that Hook had good reason to want revenge. And she doesn't know that the man she's getting involved with murdered his last wife. She looks a lot less delusional. Then the facts can come out later at a time in the story when they want to throw in a monkey wrench between Rumple and Belle and when they're ready to deal with it instead of rushing to the next plot point that requires Rumple and Belle to be together and happy.

 

So many of the relationship issues in this show could have been fixed by adding a few lines of dialogue, but this is one that could have been fixed by removing a line. If Belle isn't going to be at all affected by the revelation, why bother giving it to her? We've already seen the flashback, so we don't need it for our benefit.

[Amerilla]

If Belle isn't going to be at all affected by the revelation, why bother giving it to her?

Logically, you're correct, but I think there's a real tendency by the writers to sort of wall off core conflicts. For example, Regina and Emma clash over Henry, but Emma almost never clashes with Regina over the things she's done to the rest of Emma's family (or Emma herself), and Snowing rarely clashes with Regina over the fact that she put them in the position of sending their daughter away and ended up (poorly) parenting their own grandchild. The conflict between Regina and Snowing is its own thing, rooted in long-ago grievances and rarely touching on more recent affronts.

They seem to see Milah as a Rumple and Hook conflict, period. Belle and Nealfire find out about it because it's a bit of Hook angst that fuels the battle between the two men. That Belle or Bae would logically have, ya know, *feelings* about it escapes the storytellers, because it isn't a story about Belle or Bae or even Milah. It's primarily a story about Hook, used to move a story about Rumple.

It's completely tone-deaf emotionally, but that's just how these "genius" storytellers roll.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Amerilla

[Hookian]

So people were gonna respond to the post I made in the spoilers thread about Hook and Charming. I cannot imagine why anyone would classify these two as not friends or "mates". Especially seeing their development from S2 to S3.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Hookian

[Shanna Marie]

Taking a non-spoilery thought from the spoiler thread:
 

I for one thought Captain Charming was one of the best things of S3 and Charming/Hook have a very interesting dynamic. Both lost their brothers and both have found their "brothers" in each other.

 

They literally define the term bromance. Hook reminds Charming of his brother James and and Charming reminds Hook of Liam. That was pretty much the purpose of "Good Form" and they continued this bond.

I think the "brother" thing is mostly one-way at this point. David was being a jerk and insulting Hook when he said Hook would like his brother because he was a liar and a thief, too. David never met his brother, only knows him by reputation and certainly doesn't miss him, unless it's one of those twin things where he always felt a bit of a loss and didn't know why. I do think that Hook was being sincere when he said David reminded him of Liam, and Hook still seems to desperately miss his brother, so I can see him fitting David into that role. He hasn't been trying that hard yet, though. He's mostly playing it cool and letting David warm to him. Though it would be rather funny if he went into "little brother" mode and started being a pest while trying to get David's attention. From David's perspective, I'm not sure he sees Hook as any kind of brother. He's gained a grudging respect, and he seems to trust Emma with him and knows he has Emma's best interests at heart, but I don't know that he yet actually likes him. I'm really curious to see how they develop that relationship going forward after they had those adventures together in the past and now that David knows who "Charles" really was. That's a relationship I really want to see more of because they play so well off each other (which is probably helped a lot by the real-life friendship between the actors).

[stealinghome]

Forgive me for my bluntness but that makes no sense at all. Did you dose off and sleep through all of S3 or something? Did you miss the Hook/Charming bromance the entire season? Did you miss the progression they made from S2 to what they are now?

If you don't view Hook/Charming as friends then... I don't even know what to say. I think S3 more than cemented the fact that they view each other as friends or "mates".

I know we joke a lot about Charming and Hook's bromance, but imo Charming and Hook aren't really friends yet. The potential for a real friendship is there, but right now, I'd classify them as friendly but not friends (and like Shanna Marie, I think Hook is a little farther ahead in the "Do you want to be friends? Check yes or no" race than David atm). Charming respects Hook's feelings for Emma and appreciates what Hook has done for him and his family, but they don't seem to be at the stage yet where they would willingly/happily hang out one-on-one just to enjoy each other's company, nor does David, at least, seem inclined to be all touchy-feely-share-my-feelings (in a manly man way) with Hook yet (Charming didn't know "Prince Charles" was Hook in 3x22--and even there, Hook was way more "let me confess my innermost feelings!" than David). I suspect Charming wants Hook to stay on the straight and narrow a little bit longer before he really can invest in a friendship (it also would probably help if Hook stopped making lewd comments about his sex life in front of his wife!); I think he likes the glimpses he's seen of the man Hook can become, but wants them to be more than glimpses. For Hook's part, I suspect he wants to get his relationship with Emma on slightly more solid footing, and maybe see Charming relax a bit more--in general and around/with regard to Hook specifically.

[KingOfHearts]

I think there's a real tendency by the writers to sort of wall off core conflicts.

Amerilla, I agree. The writers in general tend to compartmentalize conflicts and events without taking effort to play out the aftermath, especially when it comes to the reactions of other characters. I believe with the Triangle of Doom, it won't be about Marian or Roland at all. In fact, it probably won't even be about Robin Hood. It'll be centered on Regina most likely. The reactions and feelings of the Hoods will be dashed away as though they didn't matter.

 

This is a very large issue that goes beyond relationships, but the writers do not like to deal with what they setup at all.

 

 

I know we joke a lot about Charming and Hook's bromance, but imo Charming and Hook aren't really friends yet.

I agree with this too. At this point, Charming is mostly thinking, "I don't hate you for dating my daughter. You're alright.", but I don't think they'd go out for drinks together.

Edited September 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

David was pretty quick about accusing Hook of lying about the note he received about the curse because no one but Snow could've apparently sent it.  I think David wants to trust Hook and I think after the last episode of last season, he might get there, but then that relationship will have to overcome obstacles as well.

 

With Hook it will be one step forward, two steps back.  It will take a lot of time for Hook to re-build himself and five seconds to destroy everything good he's done and everyone will be on his back.  Meanwhile, Regina...

[InsertWordHere]

So people were gonna respond to the post I made in the spoilers thread about Hook and Charming. I cannot imagine why anyone would classify these two as not friends or "mates". Especially seeing their development from S2 to S3.

I'm a huge fan of the Captain Charming bromance, but no, I would not classify them as friends yet. Friends, by my definition, spend time together outside of the latest crisis. The only times we've seen Hook and Charming together in a relaxed setting, Hook has been by Emma's side, not Charming's.

 

If this show slowed down a little we might get to see them hang out together, but as of right now and what I've seen on my screen, they're not friends yet.

[stealinghome]

David was pretty quick about accusing Hook of lying about the note he received about the curse because no one but Snow could've apparently sent it.  I think David wants to trust Hook and I think after the last episode of last season, he might get there, but then that relationship will have to overcome obstacles as well.

I tend to give that one a bit of a pass because imo Snow and Charming so quickly jumping on Hook's back was pretty artificial, and only done to ramp up the tension...because within the first, like, 10 minutes of the next episode, Charming was defending Hook to Emma.

 

I still want to know (and know we will never be told) if the gang will ever figure out that it was Neal who sent the note, and/or, if they now know it's not Snow, who exactly it was they think did it. Rumpel didn't seem to remember when Neal busted loose....

Edited September 4, 2014 by stealinghome

[Curio]

At this point, Charming is mostly thinking, "I don't hate you for dating my daughter. You're alright.", but I don't think they'd go out for drinks together.

Agreed. However, I could see them sitting at the bar having some beers at Grannie's after a hard fought battle, getting lost in their conversation, and then slowly realize they're the only two left in the place. And then they'd shrug and be like hey I guess I kind of like chatting with you lets do this again some time.

 

I still want to know (and know we will never be told) if the gang will ever figure out that it was Neal who sent the note, and/or, if they now know it's not Snow, who exactly it was they think did it.

Yeah, kind of like how we'll always be sitting here wondering if Charming and Snow know about Neal sending Emma to jail, but we all know the writers will never ever address it again because then they'd have to rename that baby...

[KingOfHearts]

 

Rumpel didn't seem to remember when Neal busted loose....

He didn't remember before because of the curse. He should now that the curse is broken.

[Hookian]

David was pretty quick about accusing Hook of lying about the note he received about the curse because no one but Snow could've apparently sent it.  I think David wants to trust Hook and I think after the last episode of last season, he might get there, but then that relationship will have to overcome obstacles as well.

 

With Hook it will be one step forward, two steps back.  It will take a lot of time for Hook to re-build himself and five seconds to destroy everything good he's done and everyone will be on his back.  Meanwhile, Regina...

and then the very next episode he defended Hook.

 

Amerilla, I agree. The writers in general tend to compartmentalize conflicts and events without taking effort to play out the aftermath, especially when it comes to the reactions of other characters. I believe with the Triangle of Doom, it won't be about Marian or Roland at all. In fact, it probably won't even be about Robin Hood. It'll be centered on Regina most likely. The reactions and feelings of the Hoods will be dashed away as though they didn't matter.

 

Well it won't be about Marian that's for sure, since they basically called her a detour in the latest article, pretty harsh.

 

However I do believe Roland will play a role. Mainly because he likely will feel a connection to Regina that he doesn't with Marian bc he doesn't know his mom. We don't know what happened in the year away so for all we know Regina could very well have spent more time then shown with Robin and Roland. Likely that's what we will see bc like with the Snowing triangle we saw them in FTL to reflect what is happening in the present. I pretty much expect the same thing in this situation.

 

The only time Marian is gonna play a role is when it's revealed that Regina likely did not kill her in the past timeline and also when she asks Regina to watch over Robin and Roland before dying.

 

Just speaking with the shows predictability.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Hookian

[Serena]

I still want to know (and know we will never be told) if the gang will ever figure out that it was Neal who sent the note, and/or, if they now know it's not Snow, who exactly it was they think did it. Rumpel didn't seem to remember when Neal busted loose....

God help us if they figure it out. They'd probably rename Storybrooke "Nealbrook"

[FurryFury]

I didn't mind the Charming/Hook scenes, but they're definitely not real friends yet. It takes more that that to built a believable friendship, and they don't seem to care about each other that much. I could classify them as casual buddies, but not friends.

Edited September 4, 2014 by FurryFury

[YaddaYadda]

and then the very next episode he defended Hook.

 

I know.  Merely pointing out that he was still willing to believe the worst in Hook after the good things he had done even though I'm pretty sure David likes Hook just fine. 

[RadioGirl27]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks Hook and Charming aren't friends and they just tolerate each other. Can they become friends? Yes, of course. But right now they probably like each other and that's it. Both characters need a friend, especially Hook who right now doesn't have anything (family, friends, a home).

This bromance is more a fandom thing than something the show has shown, like Snow hating Hook. A big part of the fandom thinks Snow hates him but I don't see it. I think she is totally indiferent to him.

[Shanna Marie]

I tend to give that one a bit of a pass because imo Snow and Charming so quickly jumping on Hook's back was pretty artificial, and only done to ramp up the tension...because within the first, like, 10 minutes of the next episode, Charming was defending Hook to Emma.

I don't think that's necessarily contradictory. David has learned that he can trust Hook as a comrade in arms, someone who's good to have at your back or side in a fight, and he's learned that Hook has a pretty valuable and diverse skill set that's useful in a tight situation. He's also realized that Hook would probably defend Emma to the death. On the other hand, Hook does have a bad habit of lying or withholding information to further his own agenda. That agenda isn't necessarily nefarious -- mostly it's just to protect himself or because he doesn't want to deal with everything the truth would stir up even if the truth isn't bad -- but I don't think Hook has yet earned their full trust on the truth front, considering that he was just caught out in having withheld some really big stuff. As far as we know, he still hasn't come clean about his role in the Ariel fiasco and has let them give him credit for helping Ariel find Eric. At that point in the story, he was still refusing to tell how he managed to get to this world to find Emma. It wasn't unreasonable to be suspicious of his story once they knew that what he'd told them was wrong. It just so happened to be one time when he was telling the truth as he knew it.

 

I'm not sure even Rumple would know that Neal sent the note because Neal actually managed to leave his body to do so, which means Rumple wasn't present. I wonder if Hook still has the note, and if so, why he didn't show it to them. Emma might have recognized Neal's handwriting even if Neal had adapted it to our world so that Hook no longer recognized it. Then again, it was rather hastily scrawled, so the handwriting might not have been recognizable.

 

As for any "friendship" between Hook and David, they haven't really socialized at all. They talked about their brothers while on the fake sextant quest, but David was still pretty antagonistic then. We didn't get to see the walk back after David was cured, which was likely more friendly, but Hook still seemed totally stunned when David gave him credit in front of the others, asked for his flask and toasted him, so it couldn't have been too buddy-buddy. Then the only other time I can think of that they really talked man-to-man was in the past when David and "Prince Charles" were talking, and we haven't seen yet how David learning who the guy who made him keep believing in true love really was will affect their relationship. The closest they've come to any kind of genuine affection was David's comforting pat on Hook's shoulder when Neal died. There's potential for something to build there, but it's so not there yet outside of fanfic.

[KingOfHearts]

Eh, I'm not sure. The Sheriff seemed to be pretty sleazy in "Lacey". I mean, he hit on Belle, so I question his taste already, and he's traditionally a villain, so I doubt he's any better than a newly minted Regina fan Robin. She should probably stay way from both of them.

I don't really care who she ends up with, even if he's the sleaziest guy ever, I just want the Love Triangle of Doom to be over already. I think almost any man would be better than Robin.

Edited September 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Is it too soon to try to stir up a Maid Marian/Little John 'shipping brigade? He seems like a nice enough guy and hasn't had a chance to drink the Regina Kool-Aid. They could turn to each other when both of them feel betrayed by Robin hooking up with someone who surely was a former enemy. And Marian should definitely get custody of Roland. What would we call them, Little Maid? (Not that I care. I'm just thinking of Marian's well-being.)

 

I think if I were Marian, I'd be rather grossed-out by going where Regina has been. And Robin doesn't even have the "it was a curse!" excuse.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think if I were Marian, I'd be rather grossed-out by going where Regina has been. And Robin doesn't even have the "it was a curse!" excuse.

 

I think at best, Marian would have to lose a little (a lot) of respect for her hubs.  Such incredibly, abysmally poor taste/judgment is hard to get past.  Maybe she takes Roland and lives at Granny's or the convent while getting acclimated to Storybrooke and leaves Robin with Regina, who deserve each other.

[Serena]

Honestly, I don't think there's any way Marian wouldn't realistically lose a lot of respect for Robin. Even if he dumps Regina and never gets back with her, it's like... oh, when it happens to somehow you love it's bad, but when it's only other people's loved ones who were getting murdered, it was "bold and audacious"? (LMAO, he's never gonna live that line down)

[FurryFury]

I think almost any man would be better than Robin.

 

Mmm... Rumple? Prince James? King George? Malcolm? Zelena's babydaddy? I do think there are worse options than Robin :) Although that may change depending on how he handles the Marian/Regina drama. One thing for sure, it will be supremely difficult for him to get out of it still looking good.

[Serena]

I actually think Rumple is the guy Regina has the most chemistry with. So that's be interesting, in a fucked up kind of way.

Regina with Prince James would be HILARIOUS. Evil Prince Charming? It would be fab.

King George hates Charming as much as Regina hates Snow, so they could bond over that. 

Malcolm and Zelena's father... okay, I got nothing there. 

[FurryFury]

I actually think Rumple is the guy Regina has the most chemistry with.

 

I agree, but it's not romantic/sexual, imho. Actually, Rumple/Regina is one of my favorite relationships on the show, and I'm really disappointed more hasn't been done with them, because the potential and history and dynamic are all amazing.

 

Regina with Prince James would be HILARIOUS. Evil Prince Charming? It would be fab.

 

While I don't care much about James, I'd definitely love to see her with a "fallen prince" type, who could directly contrast Charming! That would be a hoot!

[Serena]

While I don't care much about James, I'd definitely love to see her with a "fallen prince" type, who could directly contrast Charming! That would be a hoot!

Ultimately I think it's a mistake to pair her with a goody character like Robin. She should be with some other morally grey or villain reformed character. Someone who used to be as evil as her, so it'd make sense he wouldn't judge her (unlike Robin, who looks like a dummy when he's appreciative of her being "bold and audacious", someone who is or used to be a villain would have a warped enough worldview that he'd see the crazypants things she did to achieve her goals as actually bold and audacious), but who's also trying to toe the line. 

[KingOfHearts]

I actually think Rumple is the guy Regina has the most chemistry with. So that's be interesting

 

I see Rumple and Regina as more of a twisted father/daughter relationship. I love their power struggles and rivalries... I hope we get more of them together. The way they snark at each other in their private conversations is just pure gold. (Pun intended.)

 

 

I'd definitely love to see her with a "fallen prince" type, who could directly contrast Charming! That would be a hoot!

Hans. Calling it now.

Edited September 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

Ultimately I think it's a mistake to pair her with a goody character like Robin. She should be with some other morally grey or villain reformed character. Someone who used to be as evil as her, so it'd make sense he wouldn't judge her (unlike Robin, who looks like a dummy when he's appreciative of her being "bold and audacious", someone who is or used to be a villain would have a warped enough worldview that he'd see the crazypants things she did to achieve her goals as actually bold and audacious), but who's also trying to toe the line. 

I think probably A&E thought that having the Evil Queen fall in love with a classical good guy like Robin Hood was a great twist, and the reverse of Emma and Hook (good girl, bad boy). But in the end, it has been a big mistake, because the relationship has been so badly written and so rushed, that is laughable and not romantic.

If Robin had fallen for Regina without knowing anything about her, maybe it would have been actually compelling, but the way the relationship is written Robin cames off as a total douchebag.

[KingOfHearts]

I always thought Outlaw Queen was just a funny juxtaposition for the writers. "Wouldn't it be hilarious if Robin Hood hooked up with the Evil Queen?" Sometimes opposites attract, but there's something that most couples have to agree on - their moral code. Robin should not be comfortable dating a mass murderer he hardly knows. Not that it would help much, but Robin hasn't seen Regina's redemption at all. He doesn't know hardly anything about her past except that the public called her the Evil Queen. At the end of the day, when everything comes to light, Regina and Robin clash. Marian aside, if Robin found out about all the horrendous things Regina had done in the past, he wouldn't be going anywhere near her. (Or so I wished.)
 

One big mistake here was not testing their chemistry together before declaring them as soulmates/True Loves/whatever. It's not organic when it doesn't unfold itself.

[Shanna Marie]

Robin should not be comfortable dating a mass murderer he hardly knows. Not that it would help much, but Robin hasn't seen Regina's redemption at all. He doesn't know hardly anything about her past except that the public called her the Evil Queen.

And he knows that he was on wanted posters next to Snow White. Marian was willing to die to protect Snow because she believed her to be innocent, and that seems to have been the general view of the public, who never bought into Regina's lies about her. So unless Marian developed her faith in Snow after she was separated from Robin, that means Robin knows that Regina was falsely accusing Snow and hunting him down. All he saw of any "redemption" was that she didn't let a flying monkey kill his kid and that she missed her son enough to want to go under a sleeping curse, and the Robin who started dating Regina hadn't even seen that.

 

If Robin had fallen for Regina without knowing anything about her, maybe it would have been actually compelling, but the way the relationship is written Robin cames off as a total douchebag.

It really could have been interesting if she met some classic hero type from another realm who'd never heard of her and only took her at current face value. Then there could have been the conflict of how much to reveal about her past and what he'd think if he found out from another source. But having him be someone she apparently put on wanted posters alongside the woman she was falsely accusing and whose throne she was usurping while she was slaughtering villagers made it icky.

[FurryFury]

I also feel they should have established the character better before telling us about the twu 4eva luv he has with Regina. To create a good romance, there should be more characterization and an existing dynamic. Snow and Charming had playful banter and rivalry, Hook and Emma were enemies but kindred spirits (also with playful banter). Even Rumbelle had the "love redeems" and "morality pet" dynamic going on (tropes I personally dislike, but to each their own). There was nothing with Regina and Robin, just insta-connection. An almost literal red string of fate.

[stealinghome]

It really could have been interesting if she met some classic hero type from another realm who'd never heard of her and only took her at current face value. Then there could have been the conflict of how much to reveal about her past and what he'd think if he found out from another source. But having him be someone she apparently put on wanted posters alongside the woman she was falsely accusing and whose throne she was usurping while she was slaughtering villagers made it icky.

Agreed. Regina really, really needs a love interest who had never heard of the Evil Queen.

[YaddaYadda]

Regarding the whole OQ.  I find the whole thing weird on Robin's end.  I'm not really sure what the show was trying to accomplish when they decided that those two had zero relationship during the missing year and that they barely tolerated each other.

 

So that's basically another miss.  And it's such a surprise given how they love to have their Regina EF flashbacks. 

[Mari]

So that's basically another miss.  And it's such a surprise given how they love to have their Regina EF flashbacks. 

Yes.  Yet another missing year flashback failure.

 

If they had shown occasional scenes where Robin was at first leery of Regina, but then saw she was  a changed person and slowly started a relationship with her during the missing year, the relationship might've worked for me.

 

But giving them little to no missing year interaction, followed by the horrible "You killed people, but you've got a great rack, so it's sexy, let's have drinks and you can meet my kid." fasttracked relationship?  Yeah.  No.

 

And, yes, I'm aware that they might retcon that, but by then the emotional relevancy will be gone and I won't care; anything they do to imply that they had a relationship in the Enchanted Forest during the missing year is most likely going to seem like a we-screwed-up-wedge-in. 

Edited September 6, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

What real relationship would be hostile for a whole year in one place and be lovey-dovey from just one week in another? If Regina and Robin had no chemistry in the Enchanted Forest, then it shouldn't be any different in Storybrooke. That's one of the major pillars of my disbelief for this couple. If they couldn't like each other before, why do they like each other now? I'll tell you why - the tattoo.

 

Regina never saw the tattoo in the Missing Year as far as we know, but in Storybrooke she saw it almost immediately in their relationship. With that, Regina knew the relationship was guaranteed and she didn't have to work for it. It was handed to her on a silver platter by a spunky green fairy named Tinkerbelle. Knowing she couldn't lose, she took advantage of the free romance. All the scenes we get with Outlaw Queen are physical and flirty. It's neighboring Graham territory.

 

I don't see a real relationship with Regina and Robin - just love with benefits. Marian should find this sickening. If I were her, I'd grab Roland and get the heck away from them.

[KAOS Agent]

I think they wanted to keep Outlaw Queen from happening in the Enchanted Forest because it would have shown that Regina was moving on and could be happy without Henry and they couldn't have that. They needed Regina to be desperately unhappy and unable to move on from losing her son. If she strikes up a romantic relationship, they lose the "can't move on" aspect of true love with her son. I don't agree with that idea, but I think that missing Henry because she loved him soooooo much was supposed to be Regina's arc in the Missing Year. That they had Snowing move on pretty much immediately from losing Emma a second time (and we've criticized them plenty for it) just contrasts with how much more special the Regina/Henry bond is because Regina just can't live without her son.

 

I honestly don't know what the writers were thinking with the Regina executes Marian reveal. They could have easily had Marian return from the dead without the unnecessary part where Regina parades a hooded Marian around all while smiling and cupping her ear in delight at hearing Marian's pleas for mercy and then sentences her to death. It's incredibly disturbing. Oh look, here's a gif of it. Even if they try to play the Regina didn't actually execute Marian card, this part happened. Hook & Emma and the audience saw it happen. And it's incredibly squicky if once Robin learns of this, he's still cool with her or allowing his son anywhere near the woman who subjected Marian to this treatment. It's even worse for Robin's character if Regina backslides into evil even the slightest bit when she experiences a set back because there goes the "she's changed" narrative. 

Edited September 7, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't agree with that idea, but I think that missing Henry because she loved him soooooo much was supposed to be Regina's arc in the Missing Year.

 

Which is weird because in Witch Hunt, the major point was that Regina could find love somewhere else, with Robin to fit that bill. I don't understand why they gave Outlaw Queen so many character moments in that episode, then totally dropped it. See, I thought the point of Robin was to teach Regina she could find happiness somewhere besides Henry. All that went down the drain when OQ didn't happen in the Missing Year and she got Henry back with a TLK in the present.

 

On a side note, if Outlaw Queen had gone strong for the whole Missing Year, the Marian thing wouldn't bother me as much.

Edited September 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I think they wanted to keep Outlaw Queen from happening in the Enchanted Forest because it would have shown that Regina was moving on and could be happy without Henry and they couldn't have that. They needed Regina to be desperately unhappy and unable to move on from losing her son. If she strikes up a romantic relationship, they lose the "can't move on" aspect of true love with her son. I don't agree with that idea, but I think that missing Henry because she loved him soooooo much was supposed to be Regina's arc in the Missing Year. That they had Snowing move on pretty much immediately from losing Emma a second time (and we've criticized them plenty for it) just contrasts with how much more special the Regina/Henry bond is because Regina just can't live without her son.

I think you're right, and that's what they're going for--but, I think they're crazy.  That behavior wouldn't mean Regina loves Henry.  It would mean she's obsessed with Henry, which, well, would make sense, considering her stability at times.

 

And do these writers not know people who love both their spouse/partner and their children?  Because I've known couples together 60-70 years, who still doted on each other, and managed to love their children at the same time.  They even managed to love a few grandchildren at the same time.

 

Responding to the rest in the speculation without spoilers thread.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Mari

[Hookian]

I think probably A&E thought that having the Evil Queen fall in love with a classical good guy like Robin Hood was a great twist, and the reverse of Emma and Hook (good girl, bad boy). But in the end, it has been a big mistake, because the relationship has been so badly written and so rushed, that is laughable and not romantic.

If Robin had fallen for Regina without knowing anything about her, maybe it would have been actually compelling, but the way the relationship is written Robin cames off as a total douchebag.

You may believe this to be a big mistake, but going from the GA's P.O.V they very much enjoy the OQ storyline. Edited September 7, 2014 by stacey
Clarifying post.

[stealinghome]

I don't think it's really possible to judge the general audience's opinion--the online audience is a very small fraction of the general audience.

 

and fwiw, everyone I know IRL who watches the show thinks Outlaw Queen is super lame.

[YaddaYadda]

Which is weird because in Witch Hunt, the major point was that Regina could find love somewhere else, with Robin to fit that bill. I don't understand why they gave Outlaw Queen so many character moments in that episode, then totally dropped it. See, I thought the point of Robin was to teach Regina she could find happiness somewhere besides Henry. All that went down the drain when OQ didn't happen in the Missing Year and she got Henry back with a TLK in the present.

 

On a side note, if Outlaw Queen had gone strong for the whole Missing Year, the Marian thing wouldn't bother me as much.

 

The show thus far has shown different kinds of love, no?  I mean you have romantic love aspect of things and then a parent's love for a child.  That's how Emma broke the original curse. 

 

So Regina falling in love wouldn't have been something anyone would have held against her and especially not Henry. 

 

The show's reasoning is stupid.  It's like telling parents whose child has died that having another baby is betraying the memory of the one they lost. 

 

Regina feels more than the Charmings.  She's awesome!

[ShadowFacts]

 

Regina feels more than the Charmings.  She's awesome!

 

Yes indeed, Regina does feel more than anyone.  She feels victimized, set upon, unfairly treated.  She has cornered the market on those feelings.

[Anakerie]

I'm sorry, but Rumple killed his wife. Regina murdered her husband and her sex-slave. I don't care how much time has passed or what the circumstances are:  anyone who gets involved romantically with either one of these people needs a lot more mental help than even Archie could provide. I mean, I'm pretty forgiving and open-minded, but spousal, significant other, or sex-slave murder is an automatic deal-breaker for me. I mean sure, it starts out fine, but then someone leaves their socks on the floor or gets into a fight about what to watch on television, and the next thing you know you're on Dr. Phil for a "My Husband Killed My Father, Stuffed African Violets in his Mouth, and Left His Head In the Non-Fiction Section of the Library for Me To Find" episode. Belle and Robin would be much better off with a nice prison pen-pal.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm sorry, but Rumple killed his wife. Regina murdered her husband and her sex-slave. I don't care how much time has passed or what the circumstances are:  anyone who gets involved romantically with either one of these people needs a lot more mental help than even Archie could provide.

 

I agree, especially with Rumple. Regina could get to a place where she can be trusted, but her redemption arc has been built so poorly that she's not close to being there yet. Meanwhile, Rumple hasn't redeemed himself at all. He just killed one of his love interests a few episodes ago! At this point, I wouldn't want to be a lover to either of them for fear of my own life.

 

I think Regina would have a "safer" relationship if she got someone grey and just as clever as she is who wouldn't be afraid of her. Cora and Rumple are a more extreme case of this scenario.

Edited September 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I don't disagree that anyone who gets involved with Rumpel or Regina needs to get their head checked, but if we're talking about Rumpel murdering Zelena, I don't think it's fair to classify her as a love interest. She had the hrs for him, but he had less than no romantic interest in her.