S07.E14: Resurrection (1)

[McManda]

Oops maybe I should that have been put Raging Heat under a spoiler? Just realised that now. Might edit my post just in case. The spoiler below is a book spoiler only.

 

I edited by post too, just in case, but I'm probably the only one that hasn't read it yet. Anyway, I took a look anyway, and that's interesting.

 

For the record, (I had to google it), the PD heirarcy looks something like this (I skipped a whole bunch of inbetweens):

• Officer
• Detective
• Sergent
• Lieutenant
• Captain
• Major
• Colonel
• Commander
• Chief
• Sheriff

So Beckett's still toward the bottom of the rankings. The Wiki article I was reading mentions that there are career detectives though, and different ranks that go within that designation. (EDITED to add Captain for reference.)

 

I'm not sure I'd like the dynamic shift if they had Beckett take a promotional exam, but the AU episode sort of made it work. And maybe it wouldn't be that much of a shift anyway, considering Beckett already bosses around the boys.

 

I could see Beckett maybe angling for Captain (I think that would suit her better in terms of in-show heirarcy than Sergent or Lieutenant) because then she could still be involved with cases, but I don't want them to kill of Gates for that to happen. I mean, how many Captains to they have to kill off before it becomes a turnoff for a promotion?

 

To over-feminize her while making the guys look realistic, also perturbs me. A real female cop couldn't possibly do her job in those get-ups she wears.

 

Do the guys look realistic though? I mean, there was a good stretch of time where Espo came to work wearing jeans and a hoodie.

 

It's not quite the same - there's definitely not the sexualization that goes with dressing a man - but there's also less variation in men's clothes. They don't really have the option for long hair versus short hair, or heels versus flats, or any other style choice that Beckett gets flak for.

Edited February 11, 2015 by McManda

[metaphor]

I edited by post too, just in case, but I'm probably the only one that hasn't read it yet. Anyway, I took a look anyway, and that's interesting.

 

For the record, (I had to google it), the PD heirarcy looks something like this (I skipped a whole bunch of inbetweens):

• Officer
• Detective
• Sergent
• Lieutenant
• Colonel
• Commander
• Chief
• Sheriff

So Beckett's still toward the bottom of the rankings. The Wiki article I was reading mentions that there are career detectives though, and different ranks that go within that designation.

 

I'm not sure I'd like the dynamic shift if they had Beckett take a promotional exam, but the AU episode sort of made it work. And maybe it wouldn't be that much of a shift anyway, considering Beckett already bosses around the boys.

 

I could see Beckett maybe angling for Captain (I think that would suit her better in terms of in-show heirarcy than Sergent or Lieutenant) because then she could still be involved with cases, but I don't want them to kill of Gates for that to happen. I mean, how many Captains to they have to kill off before it becomes a turnoff for a promotion?

 

Yes, I read that wiki awhile back and thought it quite interesting that although Beckett is only ranked Detective, she was named the highest-ranking officer in the precinct when Gates was away in 6.20.

 

I guess if she went up to Sergeant or Lieutenant, she'd be bossing around more than just the boys? Heh. I'm not particularly fussed to see that. I guess show hierarchy also works a bit differently, since Beckett has always been shown to report directly to the Captain as well.  

[turnitwayup]

I wish they would bring back the shoes she wore in Still. The entire look was good and she didn't look like she wasn't gonna trip on anything in those heels.

[KaveDweller]

What we're trying to say is that there are a LOT of gorgeous female cops on TV who don't have "short hair." Angie in particular, has hair that's naturally like Kate with extensions. But she knows when to pull it back at a freaking crime scene. She manages to look beautiful and feminine without looking like she could walk a catwalk. That her vest looks different than the guys' vests proves they're trying to make her look sexy for a fashion model rather than sexy for a cop.

 

I know what you're saying, I am saying I disagree.  First of all I don't think she looks like she could be on a catwalk.  Secondly, I don't think it would be a problem if she did.  My disagreeing about that doesn't mean I don't understand your point and need you to repeat it.

 

Now, I can't walk in stilettos for more than a minute, so I agree with the comments about those.  But they've established that Beckett can, so it doesn't take me out of the story.  On Alias, Sydney Bristow used to kick ass in heels too.  It's a TV thing.

I guess if she went up to Sergeant or Lieutenant, she'd be bossing around more than just the boys? Heh. I'm not particularly fussed to see that. I guess show hierarchy also works a bit differently, since Beckett has always been shown to report directly to the Captain as well. 

I think it would mean she'd be bossing people around offscreen because they don't have any other cops we see regularly.

[Samantha84]

Personally, when they were approaching, all I could see were those ridiculous boots, and it TOTALLY took me out of the scene.

 

THIS! I, literally, yelled at the TV, "OMG! Seriously w the boots! Unrealistic!". 

[Hipshooter]

Clone me a Beckett !!! Heels,hair and the whole package. Love  super model Beckett.

[Nadine]

Clone me a Beckett !!! Heels,hair and the whole package. Love  super model Beckett.

 

We'll send Doc N your way for you!

[Samantha84]

Just read a tweet and someone said: "Neiman & Tyson mind fuck Castle, Beckett, & Co. so well I need a cigarette afterwards & I don't smoke!" LMAO! I totally agree. 

Beckett to Neiman: Whatever you're up to ... whatever Tyson's up to ... we will stop it.

LMAO! Kate Beckett makes a funny. Neiman and Tyson were already 10 steps ahead of you and you had no idea. In face her sitting in front of you was part of their plan.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Samantha84

[sinkwriter]

Damn it, SweetTooth, you said the P word!  ;)

 

I couldn't stand that storyline. Not only for his ridiculous omnipotence, but because it was humanly impossible for him to be awake 24/7 and keep up with everything Booth and Brennan and the entire team did and said, so that he could turn around and punish them for it. Drove me NUTS. 3xK is reaching Pelant levels of power and abilities to always be ahead of everyone else, and that bugs me. I don't care how smart he is; there's no way he can know everything everyone is going to do and anticipate every possible veering from his plan.

[verdana]

 

 

This is why I just let TV be TV. If I gave anything deep logical thought I would watch nothing. Not even the news!

Just because it's only a TV show doesn't mean I should have to disengage my brain a lot of the time to watch and enjoy it. I don't even want "deep" logic just logic would do and the impression the writers give a crap about what they're doing and take some pride in their work. I don't mind suspending disbelief you have to on this show sometimes but that's no excuse for lazy writing and letting characters do dumb shit to get the story where you need it to go. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

Pretty much in agreement with all you have written here. We know that when Gates away she is in charge (since that has been mentioned a couple/few times now) and don't see those anvils being dropped for no reason whatsoever. Heck even in Raging Heat

they had Nikki taking the exam, etc. So it's definitely the next step if she wants to remain in the force (in terms of professional promotion).

I've literally just finished reading the latest Heat book so may be they'll do something with it after all. I agree they don't drop hints like that for no reason. 

[verdana]

Tweet. Of. The. Day.

Fantastic.  

 

The "taking her down a peg" comment that was used by Marlowe to justify why I got served up that enormous stinking pile of shit that was 6.23 will forever be seared on to my brain. It was disgraceful. 

[verdana]

Damn it, SweetTooth, you said the P word!  ;)

 

Heh. You're right 3XK is worrying getting (or has now got) to Pelant (sorry!) status and I hated that story with a boiling passion. 

 

Beckett to Neiman: Whatever you're up to ... whatever Tyson's up to ... we will stop it.

LMAO! Kate Beckett makes a funny. Neiman and Tyson were already 10 steps ahead of you and you had no idea. In face her sitting in front of you was part of their plan.

 

I found that dialogue clunky, can't the writers be any more imaginative when it comes to these moments? Especially during interrogations like this where you have the cop tell the extra smart serial killer sitting calmly opposite them that has outwitted them at every turn and obviously is in no way intimidated that they're gunning for them, yeah Nieman was shaking in her shoes at that zinger! As soon as she said that I groaned and thought oh well that's Beckett screwed. It was the same with the obvious scene where Gates gets the call with Espo and Ryan watching and then walks out the office to free 3XK. It's so clearly signposted as to exactly what the outcome will be I wonder are they doing it like this deliberately wanting to be this cliched and predictable? Because the only thing that I found a shock in this episode was Alexis giving Kate a quick kiss on the cheek at the start. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

 

Also, has anyone got an official tally of how many times one or both of them go off alone and get themselves kidnapped? 

You would think someone would have done a list by now, there probably is one but a trawl of google hasn't located it yet.

 

But it can't be that difficult to break down if we're talking strictly kidnapping not any other spots of bother they've got into over the years. 

 

They got locked away in Cuffed and then in Pandora they were both taken away by the CIA. 

 

Beckett alone for both ITBOTB and Reckoning.

 

Castle got taken by 3XK and he was briefly abducted in Valkyrie and then of course we had his disappearance in For Better or Worse. 

 

I think most of the cast have been kidnapped or at least taken hostage at some point. 

[readster]

Damn it, SweetTooth, you said the P word!  ;)

 

I couldn't stand that storyline. Not only for his ridiculous omnipotence, but because it was humanly impossible for him to be awake 24/7 and keep up with everything Booth and Brennan and the entire team did and said, so that he could turn around and punish them for it. Drove me NUTS. 3xK is reaching Pelant levels of power and abilities to always be ahead of everyone else, and that bugs me. I don't care how smart he is; there's no way he can know everything everyone is going to do and anticipate every possible veering from his plan.

 

 Exactly! Same with Red John on the Metalist, especially when he was about to reveal how he survived and basically went to: "Its not important, I'm right here." How with 3XK after taking 5 bullets to the chest, vest or no, at that point Becket had plenty of reasons to shoot him in the head. Even more with Nieman she is doing stuff right in the open and people are like: "Ho, hum... you have nothing unless she kills someone in front of you." Its like the entire Ed Turner reveal, basically saying: "He made up a new identity right down to finger prints." Next I'm sure they will shoot him in the head and he'll get up and be like: "You can't kill me! I only grow stronger!" There gets to the point where it goes from a good story to: "Just stop already." 

[Samantha84]

I found that dialogue clunky, can't the writers be any more imaginative when it comes to these moments? Especially during interrogations like this where you have the cop tell the extra smart serial killer sitting calmly opposite them that has outwitted them at every turn and is in obviously in no way intimidated that they're gunning for them, yeah Nieman was shaking in her shoes at that zinger!

 

Agreed, Verdana!

Also a line from that interrogation scene: Kate telling Neiman that she knows why she's there...to see what they have. 1st: what the hell did they have? Nothing. 2nd: Beckett is the one that asked her to come in -- as gleamed from Neiman's comment about her being there as a courtesy. 

See why I love Tyson/Neiman? They are the evil, much smarter version of Castle and Beckett. Shit, I'm rooting for Neiman/Tyson. Again. kudos to Annie W. and Michael M. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by Samantha84

[KaveDweller]

They got locked away in Cuffed and then in Pandora they were both taken away by the CIA.

Beckett alone for both ITBOTB and Reckoning.

Castle got taken by 3XK and he was briefly abducted in Valkyrie and then of course we had his disappearance in For Better or Worse.

ITBOTB was more an undercover op gone wrong, but I think that was her only solo kidnapping-type thing.

 

For Castle you could also count being a hostage in Cops and Robbers.

 

If this were real life, at least Beckett would have been fired ages ago. She's supposed to be the leader of the team yet continues to make horrible decisions that she knows from past experience will get her abducted.

 

She has made some mistakes, but she has also made a lot of really good decisions and solved tough cases.  And we know she has the highest close rate in the precinct. 

 

Kate telling Neiman that she knows why she's there...to see what they have. 1st: what the hell did they have? Nothing. 2nd: Beckett is the one that asked her to come in -- as gleamed from Neiman's comment about her being there as a courtesy.

 

Beckett was trying to rattle her and get her to say something incriminating. Because they didn't have proof so this was a way to try and get something.

[Driad]

 

Lee Lofland's review:  http://www.leelofland.com/wordpress/castle-resurrection-a-good-copbad-cop-review/

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

This may have already been mentioned, but I felt almost taken out the episode just before the Castle intro graphic came on screen.

 

Over a year ago, Castle was the only one - or at least the first one - to believe & postulate that JT/3XK was still alive.  But when seeing him on the street cam footage, he acts all ultra-shocked that he could possibly be alive.

 

I don't ask for much on the realism and continuity fronts, Show, but give me a break.  

Edited February 11, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[KaveDweller]

They lose track of the case and it becomes all about rescuing Beckett rather than chasing down clues.

 

But that's only happened one other time, in ITBOTB.  And in that case she wasn't at fault for what happened, she went on an undercover op, based on false information that was given to her by the people running it.  She held her own, but then got made because she had known Vulcan Simmons before.  None of that was because she made a mistake or made bad decisions.  But at the end of the day, she got information on the drug ring that the narcotics department hadn't been able to get without her.

 

I can't think of any case where she made a bad decision that caused the case to derail or that put other people in danger.  The only thing that comes close is Cuffed, but that was a really minor case. And getting locked up like that did ultimately solve the case not derail it.  Overall, her decisions and instincts seem great to me. None of the dangerous situations they've encountered have been because she's screwed up (except Always, where she was shown to be in the wrong).

 

In this episode it was stupid to go to meet that girl alone, but keep in mind, we know this is a TV show.  In her mind Tyson was in custody so not a risk. I can't see the NYPD disciplining someone because a serial killer was stalking them for revenge.  If Castle had gone with her they would have just knocked him out too.  The guy is a super-powerful super-villian, he was going to get her no matter what.

Edited February 12, 2015 by KaveDweller

[verdana]

This may have already been mentioned, but I felt almost taken out the episode just before the Castle intro graphic came on screen.

 

Over a year ago, Castle was the only one - or at least the first one - to believe & postulate that JT/3XK was still alive.  But when seeing him on the street cam footage, he acts all ultra-shocked that he could possibly be alive.

 

I don't ask for much on the realism and continuity fronts, Show, but give me a break.  

I did notice that he looked utterly shocked and thought it was strange. I don't understand why it was played that way, I was expecting a more nuanced reaction from Castle given prior events. 

[oberon55]

If this were real life, at least Beckett would have been fired ages ago. She's supposed to be the leader of the team yet continues to make horrible decisions that she knows from past experience will get her abducted. 

She has been suspended for withholding evidence & fired for leaking confidential if not classified information to the press. In real life these things would definitely have damaged or ended her career. Of course this is the Castle universe so all is forgiven or at least forgotten. Castle is not the only one on this show with selective amnesia.

Edited February 12, 2015 by oberon55

[Samantha84]

She has made some mistakes, but she has also made a lot of really good decisions and solved tough cases.  And we know she has the highest close rate in the precinct.

 

Funny you mention this. I told my husband this and he [a homicide detective] said, "She may close but all her cases would be thrown out of court before they made it to a trial or even a grand jury. Lawyers, judges would have a field day w. Castle's involvement". See why I only watch realistic and good police procedurals w. him? lol. 

[KaveDweller]

She has been suspended for withholding evidence & fired for leaking confidential if not classified information to the press. In real life these things would definitely have damaged or ended her career.

 

Maybe that's why she hasn't been promoted from detective.  But as a serious question, how much of an impact would something like the suspension have IRL?  She made a mistake, was suspended, served it out, came back and has done good work since then.  Is it something that the higher ups would get past or would she never get a promotion again because of it.  Because in plenty of other fields, people come back from mistakes.

 

With the FBI she didn't leak confidential information to the press, she leaked false information to the press to screw up the Feds investigation.  I am not sure if that makes a difference to the Feds, but she could easily explain to other organizations (like the NYPD) that she took a moral stand.

Bringing another trained officer with a gun? Much better.

 

Eh, the thug who was there to get her would have take out Espo or Ryan too.  3XK and Neimen are all powerful.  They could probably travel in time and perform cold fusion.

 

"She may close but all her cases would be thrown out of court before they made it to a trial or even a grand jury. Lawyers, judges would have a field day w. Castle's involvement". See why I only watch realistic and good police procedurals w. him? lol.

 

That I agree with.  I was a juror on a murder trial once, and the defense lawyer asked all sorts of questions to try and show that they didn't follow procedure.  Like, at a ridiculous level of detail.  But she really had no case, so she was trying to score points everywhere she could.  Beckett almost always gets confessions though.

[oberon55]

Maybe that's why she hasn't been promoted from detective.  But as a serious question, how much of an impact would something like the suspension have IRL?  She made a mistake, was suspended, served it out, came back and has done good work since then.  Is it something that the higher ups would get past or would she never get a promotion again because of it.  Because in plenty of other fields, people come back from mistakes.

 

I would think that any law enforcement agency would take a very dim view of their employees going to the press regardless of the reason. I'm sure that they all want to control what goes public. Even in the show the FBI took it seriously enough that they fired her immediately without any sort of discussion. I believe that in real life this would haunt her throughout her career.

[Jodithgrace]

The plastic surgery "clones" in this episode reminded me of the old show Mission Impossible. On that show, the IMForce would disguise themselves as other characters using rubber masks. Of course, it was totally convincing to the audience, because they switched actors, until the final reveal when they ripped off the mask! But it always drove me crazy because there is no way that those rubber masks would fool anybody in real life. 

 

I guess surgery is the new go to for that kind of thing, nowadays. But no surgery is going to turn one person into another. So many factors, besides a face go into making one person different from another. Of course Tyson's plastic surgery in supposed to be fake, which is why Castle and Beckett were so determined that he was the real thing, and not the plastic surgery clone he was pretending to be. But I still kept half expecting somebody to rip off a rubber mask!

[McManda]

That I agree with.  I was a juror on a murder trial once, and the defense lawyer asked all sorts of questions to try and show that they didn't follow procedure.  Like, at a ridiculous level of detail.  But she really had no case, so she was trying to score points everywhere she could.  Beckett almost always gets confessions though.

 

If it's made it to trial, that means they're just trying to create reasonable doubt out of (almost) nothing. Before Christmas I was a juror on a federal drug case (which was really interesting!) and the defense lawyer tried to convince us that the fingerprints they found on the drug packaging weren't to be taken into account because "they didn't have full fingerprints" ... and that's after a FBI agent from Quantico explained that there were two kinds of fingerprints: known (those that are taken with intent to be full, complete prints, like when someone is booked into jail) and latent (those that are left behind when someone touches something) and by definition latent fingerprints aren't full fingerprints. At the time it was really frustrating and felt like a waste of time, but I guess that's the defense lawyer's job.

 

I don't really have much of a problem with Castle's involvement in cases. If I were a juror, I don't think I'd see it as interference, provided someone couldn't prove that Castle was deliberately trying to mess with evidence or whatever.

[KaveDweller]

I don't really have much of a problem with Castle's involvement in cases. If I were a juror, I don't think I'd see it as interference, provided someone couldn't prove that Castle was deliberately trying to mess with evidence or whatever.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with it as a juror either, but I think it could effect things before it even gets to trial.  Because a judge can throw out evidence because it didn't follow the proper chain, and then there's nothing to present on the trial. In the case I was on, we didn't care about any of the stuff the defense lawyer was trying to question, but I think the fact that she did question it shows what lawyers would do on a Castle case.

Edited February 12, 2015 by KaveDweller

[Nadine]

I wouldn't have a problem with it as a juror either, but I think it could effect things before it even gets to trial.  Because a judge can throw out evidence because it didn't follow the proper chain, and then there's nothing to present on the trial. In the case I was on, we didn't care about any of the stuff the defense lawyer was trying to question, but I think the fact that she did question it shows what lawyers would do on a Castle case.

 

The system may differ pre-trial in US to what we have in Australia, when I was studying criminal law to get my practising certificate (and this also applies to non-criminal cases too), there's a step of guidelines you basically have to go through to make sure it is legit before it even gets to trial - especially when it comes to the police investigation (such as the police getting a statement at the crime scene by the witness but not getting their permission to record, it is the first step to it being thrown out in court if submitted as part of evidence).

 

On a side note but related to the discussion, that's why I'd absolutely would love them to do Bracken's trial. Because we've seen the steps to how they finally nailed him with the recording - so they had to make sure the evidence was solid enough that it wouldn't be thrown out, etc.

[KaveDweller]

there's a step of guidelines you basically have to go through to make sure it is legit before it even gets to trial - especially when it comes to the police investigation (such as the police getting a statement at the crime scene by the witness but not getting their permission to record, it is the first step to it being thrown out in court if submitted as part of evidence

 

That is true here too.  In the trial I was on, the issue was that in New Jersey the police have to record the interrogations.  But they had actually tracked the suspect to Connecticut and questioned him there, where the law doesn't require it.  So, the defense wanted us to think this meant we couldn't trust his statement.  But it was all irrelevant cause two people saw him shoot the guy.

 

I'm sure if they recorded interrogations Castle is in on where he makes crazy comments it would look kind of inappropriate.  Like he wasn't taking things seriously, and that could lead to whether the suspects rights were respected and all that.  But showing the trials would be a whole other type of show.

 

I'd absolutely would love them to do Bracken's trial. Because we've seen the steps to how they finally nailed him with the recording - so they had to make sure the evidence was solid enough that it wouldn't be thrown out, etc.

 

I've actually been really tempted to write a fan fic about that, but then I decide it'd be too much work. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by KaveDweller

[WendyCR72]

I think ANY case - if applying it to real law - on this show would be thrown out if just for one big reason: One of the investigators is not a detective.  :-)  Hence why fake law is appropriate for this show.

[Nadine]

I think ANY case - if applying it to real law - on this show would be thrown out if just for one big reason: One of the investigators is not a detective.  :-)  Hence why fake law is appropriate for this show.

Heh exactly. That's why it's better to watch for the enjoyment or else you literally will pick it to pieces.. wait a sec damn think I'm past the point of no return when it comes to all procedural shows on the latter!

[oberon55]

I think ANY case - if applying it to real law - on this show would be thrown out if just for one big reason: One of the investigators is not a detective.  :-)  Hence why fake law is appropriate for this show.

 

This is not technically true. There are cases every day where companies have their security investigate someone & then pass their findings on to police. These security people are not law enforcement or many times have had no special training. I was a union steward for years and involved with many grievances where this happened with cases involving everything from theft to drug use. One of the most famous cases using evidence obtained privately was Claus von Bulow. He was convicted of attempted murder on evidence gathered by private investigators hired by his wife's children, which they then turned over to the authorities. It was later overturned by the Supreme Court.

[WendyCR72]

This is not technically true. There are cases every day where companies have their security investigate someone & then pass their findings on to police. These security people are not law enforcement or many times have had no special training. I was a union steward for years and involved with many grievances where this happened with cases involving everything from theft to drug use. One of the most famous cases using evidence obtained privately was Claus von Bulow. He was convicted of attempted murder on evidence gathered by private investigators hired by his wife's children, which they then turned over to the authorities. It was later overturned by the Supreme Court.

 

Okay, but Castle was only VERY recently a P.I. And security people are not authors. I still think such a scenario - again, applying real law - would be laughed out of court. An author versus even security folks with no real training still seems like apples and oranges here, to me.

[verdana]

I would think that any law enforcement agency would take a very dim view of their employees going to the press regardless of the reason. I'm sure that they all want to control what goes public. Even in the show the FBI took it seriously enough that they fired her immediately without any sort of discussion. I believe that in real life this would haunt her throughout her career.

I agree, every firm I've worked for you can get away with quite a lot of internal shit but you leak information to the press (or a client) you're basically screwed. Telling your boss that you only did it to uphold your moral values and serve the public good will not wash. The people in charge want to maintain control at all times, especially of their image to the outside world be it accurate or not.

Kate seems to have developed into a bit of a loose cannon as the series developed and the writers needed to generate more drama, especially during the height of her mother's case which was the worst. Given what Beckett has done disobeying orders in the past and getting her colleagues into danger I would have thought that it would have harmed her career in some way, despite her overall brilliance if this was the real world and she's working for the public too but of course it's par for the course on TV shows. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by verdana

[madmaverick]

What bugs me on this show and others is that the accused almost never asks for their lawyer or chooses to remain silent.  (ALWAYS the smart option in real life.)  Of course, if that happened, there wouldn't be much of a show to watch lol.  But viewers are a lot more savvy now and expect a higher degree of realism.  If you can't deliver on the realism, the drama has to be compelling and tight enough for viewers to suspend disbelief and go with the dramatic flow.  

[verdana]

Eh, I can handwave the PREMISE of the show. In other words, we all now it's ridiculous for a writer to be partnered with a police officer, handle evidence, and question suspects. But that's the show I signed up for.

 

What I've always said is that as long as the writers maintain at least a foot in believability, enough to where there can be a suspension of disbelief, I'll go with it. Like, they went out of their way to tell me why in Castleverse, it's okay for Castle to be an integral part of the investigation. 

 

It's when they go so far off baseline reality and don't even bother to try and explain it, is when I call BS. Or when they have a character acting totally out of character to fit the plot.

 

In other words, lazy writing.

 

I think if Kate didn't keep being Ethel to Castle's Lucy (or sometimes she's even Lucy, and he's Ethel), and they keep winding up in more and more perilous situations, yet continue to go off on their own only for it to happen to them again, well.... 

Her going off on her own to investigate this episode I could have perhaps hand waved away if it hadn't been 3XK but that tipped it over the edge for me. That she would up and go and worse that everyone else (who also have personal experience of what 3XK can do) would sit around and let her didn't make sense for any of the characters at that point.

 

I agree with you about how they operate in the "Castleverse" and establishing their own version of reality and as long as they do that well I can accept it. What bugs me is when there are glaring plot holes which are caused to get them around a weakness in the writing or something so unbelievable happens that it takes you out of that world.

 

Castle is meant to be fun and not taken too seriously which is fine because that's what I want to watch on a Monday night but it has established that it's supposedly set in a police department in New York not some fictional fantasy land where anything can happen and the characters don't have superhuman powers and react to things as you would expect "normal" people to do. So you need to maintain some sense of the "real" world at all times. That's why I dislike the episodes that dip a toe into sci fi/fantasy elements as they stretch the boundaries to have some fun but I think that's going into dangerous territory crossing genres. 

 

Beckett's marriage remaining undiscovered for 15 years to everyone is unbelievable in any world and they didn't even bother trying to explain how that happened in the Castleverse but then how the hell could they it was ridiculous and they knew that but shrugged that off and did it anyway. That to me is the height of lazy writing and insulting to your viewers because they're asking me to mentally switch off completely and even if the show is meant to be light entertainment that's inexcusable. 

[verdana]

What bugs me on this show and others is that the accused almost never asks for their lawyer or chooses to remain silent.  (ALWAYS the smart option in real life.)  Of course, if that happened, there wouldn't be much of a show to watch lol.  But viewers are a lot more savvy now and expect a higher degree of realism.  If you can't deliver on the realism, the drama has to be compelling and tight enough for viewers to suspend disbelief and go with the dramatic flow.  

Working with lawyers over the years that always bugs me on shows like this when they talk, I keep wanting to yell at the screen SHUT THE HELL UP and call your lawyer.

 

Yeah I agree you can sell a lot to folks with good writing but that's the problem, the writing often isn't up to the level it should be to cover over the cracks and I get distracted by other things and in some cases taken out of scenes. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by verdana

[verdana]

What's worse is that they had Beckett not knowing Vegas weddings were REAL.

But you know what was even worse is MilMar to add insult to injury had Rogan who looked like a total dumbass know all along it was perfectly valid.

[oberon55]

Exactly! I want logic within the context of the world the writers of the show have created. It's called taking pride in the show and the actors and your viewers. Lazy writing is inexcusable. It shows a supreme disrespect.

 

Silly cheesiness is fine. As a matter of fact, I think that's this show's specialty. Forgetting a plot or character trait that was prevalent two weeks ago? Not so much.

 

All I want is for them to follow the rules of the world that they have created. Maintain the internal logic of your universe. Here are a couple of examples of things that pull me straight out of a story:

1. In s4 Beckett is almost crippled by PTSD (which is a life long condition) yet in Squab she doesn't so much as twitch when a sniper shoots right at her.

 

2. The invisible engagement ring. They established early on that Beckett sets a lot of store in symbols. Her mothers ring & her fathers watch were very prominent. The Beckett that they showed us for 5 years should have taken the symbol of her commitment to Castle very seriously.

 

For me it is easier to forgive continuity screw ups than having them act out of character. I guess it's because I watch for the people & not the stories.

[Samantha84]

Beckett's PTSD was insulting, in my opinion. The idea was good and valid but, like w. so much on this show, the execution sucked ass! As stated above Beckett didn't react to being shot at by a sniper in "Squab..." and this was after "Killshot". Castle didn't even ask her if she was okay in re: to that. Castle is the worse at continuity. I get after a heavy episode you want to have a light fair but you can do that w/o completely ignoring what's taken place in the previous episode. Alexis was kidnapped and taken to another country for goodness sake and it wasn't mentioned again. Nor was the effect it had on her, Castle, or Martha! Not even a mention of her mother, Meredith. Something as simple as, "Alexis is still having trouble so Meredith and I thought it would be a good idea if she went to L.A to spend some time w. her mom". Something. I don't need multiple scenes, just a couple of lines will suffice. It's the these writers have ADD. Geez!

[verdana]

Beckett's PTSD was insulting, in my opinion. The idea was good and valid but, like w. so much on this show, the execution sucked ass! As stated above Beckett didn't react to being shot at by a sniper in "Squab..." and this was after "Killshot". Castle didn't even ask her if she was okay in re: to that. Castle is the worse at continuity. I get after a heavy episode you want to have a light fair but you can do that w/o completely ignoring what's taken place in the previous episode. Alexis was kidnapped and taken to another country for goodness sake and it wasn't mentioned again. Nor was the effect it had on her, Castle, or Martha! Not even a mention of her mother, Meredith. Something as simple as, "Alexis is still having trouble so Meredith and I thought it would be a good idea if she went to L.A to spend some time w. her mom". Something. I don't need multiple scenes, just a couple of lines will suffice. It's the these writers have ADD. Geez!

Yeah that would be good, a token one or two lines the following episode to acknowledge that something emotionally traumatic (to most people) had occurred. However, it's clear that for TPTB every episode must be self contained wherever possible and nothing can "taint" the next one.  Which feels jarring when they have a really serious life threatening situation occur and it's all high drama and then the next week they're chasing zombies around and everyone's laughing and joking around like nothing ever happened.  Makes what occurred to them feel like cheap drama and irrelevant, really why should I care writers? The characters obviously don't. I can't get invested in the story to the degree I would like knowing it's going to make no long term difference to the characters emotionally. I was so disappointed when Alexis got kidnapped and they couldn't be bothered to have Castle even mention his daughter's trauma to anyone for months afterwards until the finale when it got some token acknowledgement which by then was too late to have any emotional significance.

 

Beckett's PTSD was dealt with in Killshot and then basically pushed to one side, the scene in Squab was glaring and then there was the moment in Linchpin when Sophia's pointing that gun at them and I thought she should have reacted more to that too given her past experience. That's why I don't ever want the writers to attempt to tackle serious emotional issues on this show because they obviously don't want to adhere to any kind of decent continuity to give the subject the attention it deserves.

Edited February 12, 2015 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

Given what Beckett has done disobeying orders in the past and getting her colleagues into danger

 

But when has she done this? I seriously can't think of any example where she has put people in danger, other than stuff related to her mom's case where she was disciplined.  It's TV so everyone has more drama happen to them then actual cops/people do, but I've never felt like it was done due to stupidity/mistakes or from disobeying orders or going off on their own.  

 

Working with lawyers over the years that always bugs me on shows like this when they talk, I keep wanting to yell at the screen SHUT THE HELL UP and call your lawyer.

 

And the cops always complain about suspects asking for a lawyer.  That bugs me too.

Edited February 13, 2015 by KaveDweller

[femmefan1946]

I've actually been really tempted to write a fan fic about that, but then I decide it'd be too much work.

 

KaveDweller- I enjoy your contributions here and would like to know where you publish your fanfics and under what name.

[pepper]

Let me put it out there right at the start: I hate 3XK and thought they should have let him die with his body being found after the bridge dive. Nevertheless, you get what you get so I put that aside and approached the episode with an open mind. And I was able to suspend disbelief... at first. But that DNA storyline lost me. And then Beckett made the dumbest decision of her life (and I'm talking about a woman who didn't know Vegas weddings were legally binding, so this is no small feat) and met the minion of a serial killer alone at night.

 

I was proud of Lanie for giving lividity-related information that was spot on, since fixed lividity matching the position of the body when found, means that it has been in that position since shortly after death. I even liked the baby talk, because it was in character and not overdone and, let's face it, realistic for people who are in their 30's/40's and want a child.

 

But my happiness was interrupted by the DNA storyline. You can't replace lost physical evidence, but you can identify a serial killer who has been in the system before. How? In a word, CODIS. His DNA records would have been shared with the FBI for their law enforcement database. If they weren't, then the writers should have come up with a reason why - like 3XK's Pelant-level hacking skills. Which wouldn't have surprised me, although it would have disappointed me further.

 

ETA: this was my first negative post about an episode for the season. Ironically, it's about the most hyped episode when I worked hard to remain spoiler-free. *sigh*

 

I'll watch the second part, but I can't say I'm excited or that I care more than I would about a regular episode.

Edited February 13, 2015 by pepper

[John Potts]

It seems TV writers love their "Uber Genius Serial Killers", but the main genius they seem to have is "ability to have the police act like complete idiots". First off, we have the DA who denies probable cause even though they have a suspect who looks exactly like a (suspected*) serial killer (even if the physical evidence of him was gone, if they put out an APB, there would be digital copies of his picture floating around) . Then we get Beckett running off to meet somebody with absolutely no back up, because it apparently takes a precinct full of cops to watch two suspects. It's a good job 3XK is known to always work alone and not have accomplices... except that was exactly how he DID operate. And on top of that, they get all the lucky breaks so that Beckett, having seen that the "victim" wasn't waiting for her fails to report it IMMEDIATELY and is abducted from a busy street with nobody spotting her. And on top of that, we have all the cops being so sure they'll get their man (and woman) when they'd escaped justice before and they had exactly nothing to pin on them this time!

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2015 at 4:12 AM, KaveDweller said:

 Who apparently was smart enough to swap out a baby tooth his mother kept of his?

I would just LOVE to see the chain of evidence on that one. "So, we've found this tooth that his foster mother kept for decades. We'll just assume it's his and if the DNA doesn't match, then he MUST be innocent!" Hell, maybe 3XK kept it as a trophy of his first kill.

On ‎13‎/‎02‎/‎2015 at 2:36 AM, KaveDweller said:

the cops always complain about suspects asking for a lawyer.  That bugs me too.

It doesn't bug me, because while it is absolutely the most sensible thing you can do if you are arrested, the cops would prefer you to be dumb - it makes it easier for them.

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2015 at 6:51 AM, verdana said:

[Alexis would] be lousy as an escort girl though.

I don't see why (unless you have greater knowledge on the subject than me)!

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2015 at 4:30 AM, verdana said:

Okay the opening exchange in the loft, I got the message loud and clear you want little Caskett babies.

It's as if TV couples are required to start breeding as soon as they're married. Even people who WANT kids are known to delay it until they feel the time is right (be that achievement, career or simple economic situation).

* I presume 3XK was never convicted, so he's just a suspected seral killer