Small Talk: The Talk We Deserve

[Lisin]

Here's your place for small talk and introductions!

If you (collectively) would like to change the name of the Small Talk thread jokey bit just figure it out amongst yourselves and then email david@previously.tv and he'll change it.

[Chas411]

Hi everyone, I'm Chas and I'm really looking forward to the premiere of this show.

[Athena]

Hi @Chas411 . Thanks for getting this thread started.

 

I'm one of the mods on this forum. My love affair with Batman begin with the DCAU Batman: The Animated Series. I've seen more or less all the adaptations past and present and read a couple of the major Batman works. I've been a fan of Ben McKenzie since "The O.C." so interested to see if this show sinks or swims. Low expectations after what happened to Smallville.

[millennium]

I've been following Batman since the age of 4, starting with the TV series in 1966.   I got hooked on Batman comics sometime around the age of 10, in the thick of the Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams era.   I was there to buy those classic issues on the day they came out -- the return of the homicidal Joker in Batman 251, the Ra's al Ghul issues, all of them, and I still have them today.  

 

I stuck with Batman through high school and collected all the titles -- Batman, Detective, Brave and the Bold, World's Finest, etc.   I actually went to high school with David Mazzuchelli, of Batman: Year One fame.   He and I were on the school newspaper and I still have some old issues with his cartoons in them.

 

Many years have passed since then, but I still haven't lived to see the Batman I idolized -- the world's greatest detective, an Olympic-class athlete, a gymnast, acrobat and martial arts expert, and a decent, level-headed guy -- represented on the big screen.  Tim Burton's version was a fucking joke.  Christopher Nolan managed to get the setting and mood right, but he was way off on the characterization.   Bale's gravel-voiced interpretation will be ridiculed until long after I'm dead.   And that Fucking.  Rubber.  Suit.   It keeps coming back.   Worst of all though, is the modern characterization of Batman as a borderline psycho (I'm pretty sure we have Frank Miller to thank for that).

 

Now, DC has found a way to up the frustration level -- make a Batman series without Batman.  

 

I'll probably give GOTHAM a try, but I'm dubious.   I give it a season, maybe two before it's canceled.   The formula reminds me too much of that godawful Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. -- everybody but the superhero.   Who goes to McDonalds and just orders fries, a Coke and McDonaldland Cookies?   The main course is missing, and I suspect the absence will be felt in every episode.

Edited June 26, 2014 by millennium

[MarkHB]

I just want to mention that in the Meetups forum, there's discussion of a possible Boston-area meetup later this month.  I'm trying to see if there's interest from people who actually watch the same shows I do, as I have no overwhelming desire to go to meet a bunch of forum-strangers.

[Trini]

Just wanted to say it's kinda awesome to see so many familiar TWoP usernames over here.

[MarkHB]

Is anyone else unable to see this week's episode (LoveCraft) on On Demand? I'm on Time Warner and the list stops at 109. I called, and she said she would have their engineers look into it, but I'm wondering if this is widespread.

[MarkHB]

Just as an FYI: they got 110 up on OnDemand Saturday.  I went to visit some family that day, and even though I think their TW system runs off a different head-end they didn't have it either!  But, it was available when I got home.

[Fist]

Hi all I'm Fist. Well that's what I did in the Army anyway. It stands for Fire Support Team. We are a small team of guys who go find the bad guys and then call in their positions so they can be bombed by whatever means is available. I just have to say I love Gotham. At first, I thought how stupid a show about Batman's town with no Batman. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised. I really enjoy watching the character development in this show before there was a Batman. Let's start with Fish (Jada Pinkett Smith). I never liked her until this role. With so little words she portrays well, a cold fish. She is devious, and such a beast in that small frame of a woman. I definitely wouldn't want to cross her.

 

The Penguin (Robin Taylor) is fantastic as well. This guy plays such a psychopath and does a really good creepy job of it. Selena (Camren Bicondova) is great too. She acts her part very good in my opinion. If the show carries on until Bruce becomes Batman I'm sure Camren is going to make a great Catwoman. David Mazouz plays a good young Bruce Wayne. Kinda seems like a snotty nose rich kid who thinks he knows it all until he meets Selena.

 

There are so many more great characters to talk about I'll stop here. The show is great and I love seeing what happened before there was a Batman. Do I care that they don't follow previous movies or the comics, No. I really though this was going to be a flop but, as I said before I couldn't have been more wrong. This is about the only TV show I watch and I can say I can't hardly wait until the next episode and I hope it stays around for a long time.

[Trini]

So the latest DC variant covers are based on movie posters, and I think I've found a new background pic with the Justice League one! The Wonder Woman one is great too.

[jhlipton]

On the clothing / sexuality issue, here my opinion (for what it's worth):

 

The Zazetettes were dressed in Hitwoman Tropewear.  That's so we knew what they were.  All the other professional women, from the Captain to Dr Thompkins have been dressed in pretty standard professional wear.  Even Ms Kringle hasn't been in anything you'd see in any office in the US.  Nor has Barbara worn anything "sexual".

 

I really don't see what clothing there is on this show that you wouldn't find elsewhere.

[Danielg342]

I brought up the sexuality angle, and I think you're missing my point.

I like sex. I like sexuality. I like sexy characters. Sexy is cool, interesting...I don't find it offensive in the slightest. However, when the work I'm seeing is not porn, I do expect more dynamics than just “sexiness”.

As it relates to Gotham, my thing is that Bruno Heller (the showrunner), at least at the beginning of the season, seems to think that a female character can only be interesting if she's sexual. It's gotten better but I still think he's got a long way to go- out of the female characters, only Sarah Essen (who is barely used anyway), Fish and the kids don't owe their place in the story to being someone's love interest of some kind (and, in Fish's case, she uses her attractiveness to overpower men and has a thing with Bullock). We don't exactly have a strong female character who's known more for her smarts and not because she's got a great body or is romantically tied to someone. That's the problem I have.

I grant that Batman may not have much in the form of strong female characters, but if Heller could create Fish from scratch, he can do it again. I think in Season 2, he might need to.

[jhlipton]

There is no problem with the male-female death ratio on the show.

OMG -- Every. Single. Time. No, casting of any show doesn't make that show sexist or racist. But this show doesn't exist in a vacuum;  It exists in the Sorority Casting Universe that is Hollywood.  And this isn't Sex and the City, Bring It On or Tales from the Hood. It's not even a story about organized crime (did you get it confused with The Wire?)  There is no reason it can't be a trend-setter, especially when it comes to female deaths.

[Kathemy]

OMG -- Every. Single. Time. No, casting of any show doesn't make that show sexist or racist. But this show doesn't exist in a vacuum;  It exists in the Sorority Casting Universe that is Hollywood.  And this isn't Sex and the City, Bring It On or Tales from the Hood. It's not even a story about organized crime (did you get it confused with The Wire?)  There is no reason it can't be a trend-setter, especially when it comes to female deaths.

You can't be serious.

 

1. Yes. This is a story about organized crime among other things. Just because it's got nothing on The Wire when it comes to that aspect it doesn't mean it isn't a story about organized crime. Falcone, Maroni, Carbone, Mooney, Penguin, Wayne Enterprises, Galavan, Indian Hill, Butch: ORGANIZED CRIME. I've seen The Wire. It's a fantastic show. I like Gotham more.
2. I clearly pointed out the sexist aspect of the show when it comes to MALE AND FEMALE DEATHS which it shares with practically every other show and you're so disingenious that you quote ONE SENTENCE because if you'd had to deal with what I actually wrote your "oh, snap!" moment would've fallen flat.

 

"Oh my God, every single time" indeed. Every single time you actually try to discuss these issues you have to deal with keyboard warriors trying to score cheap points.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Telepath

[jhlipton]

Come back when you're ready to actually engage, or not at all. I'm not going anywhere.

 

You're right (mostly) and you're wrong (somewhat).

To start with, I see I quoted the wrong part of your post!  I meant to quote:

The fact that there is an uneven ratio when it comes to the casting of a show is not necessarily sexist or racist.

I've seen that far too often as a rationale as to why [This Show] is not sexist or racist.  Any one show doesn't have to be diverse, but when you consider how many black women (as opposed to Asians, Latinas, and mixed, all of which are used by the Nets as Women of Color) are leads, and look at how many are romantic leads, you might agree that overall there's a problem.  (Black men are under-represented as well, but there's a lot more of them in romantic leads than black women.)  It looks like you didn't necessarily mean it that way -- if not, I apologize.

 

You are also correct that this show, along with many others, does emphasize the female deaths -- and that is probably why they seem more numerous than would be otherwise.  The more lines (and the more personality) given to a character, the more their death has an impact.  How many cops were frozen at the factory, and what were there genders?  I'd say about 6 total, but couldn't tell you how many were men and how many were women.  These deaths don't "count" as much as the female cop who tried to stop Mr Freeze.

 

I'd say that you're wrong in that "organized crime" is part of the show, to be sure, but I don't consider it the main emphasis.  More so in season 1, where "whose the boss of the Gotham underworld -- Falcone vs Maroni vs Fish vs Penguin -- was the major plot-line.  Season 2 has had The Riddler, Mr Freeze, the Joker and others, none of whom want to be the boss of anything.  Even Galavant was more interested in running Gotham as a whole than in the organized crime part of it.

[Kathemy]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Let's get started on this, shall we?

 
You're right (mostly) and you're wrong (somewhat).

To start with, I see I quoted the wrong part of your post!  I meant to quote:

I've seen that far too often as a rationale as to why [This Show] is not sexist or racist.  Any one show doesn't have to be diverse, but when you consider how many black women (as opposed to Asians, Latinas, and mixed, all of which are used by the Nets as Women of Color) are leads, and look at how many are romantic leads, you might agree that overall there's a problem.  (Black men are under-represented as well, but there's a lot more of them in romantic leads than black women.)  It looks like you didn't necessarily mean it that way -- if not, I apologize.

 

You are also correct that this show, along with many others, does emphasize the female deaths -- and that is probably why they seem more numerous than would be otherwise.  The more lines (and the more personality) given to a character, the more their death has an impact.  How many cops were frozen at the factory, and what were there genders?  I'd say about 6 total, but couldn't tell you how many were men and how many were women.  These deaths don't "count" as much as the female cop who tried to stop Mr Freeze.

 

I'd say that you're wrong in that "organized crime" is part of the show, to be sure, but I don't consider it the main emphasis.  More so in season 1, where "whose the boss of the Gotham underworld -- Falcone vs Maroni vs Fish vs Penguin -- was the major plot-line.  Season 2 has had The Riddler, Mr Freeze, the Joker and others, none of whom want to be the boss of anything.  Even Galavant was more interested in running Gotham as a whole than in the organized crime part of it.

First... "I've seen that far too often as a rationale as to why [This Show] is not sexist or racist.  Any one show doesn't have to be diverse, but when you consider how many black women (as opposed to Asians, Latinas, and mixed, all of which are used by the Nets as Women of Color) are leads, and look at how many are romantic leads, you might agree that overall there's a problem.  (Black men are under-represented as well, but there's a lot more of them in romantic leads than black women.)  It looks like you didn't necessarily mean it that way -- if not, I apologize."

 

Yup. In no way do I mean there is no problem with network television. I'm not even saying Gotham lacks those problems. What I am saying is that Gotham is a relatively good show when it comes to this point. If  you look at it, for example, the last episode passed the Bechdel test, and it did so despite the fact that yes, all of the real leads are men.

 

"I'd say that you're wrong in that "organized crime" is part of the show, to be sure, but I don't consider it the main emphasis.  More so in season 1, where "whose the boss of the Gotham underworld -- Falcone vs Maroni vs Fish vs Penguin -- was the major plot-line.  Season 2 has had The Riddler, Mr Freeze, the Joker and others, none of whom want to be the boss of anything.  Even Galavant was more interested in running Gotham as a whole than in the organized crime part of it."

 

Penguin is all about the organized crime aspect and Galavan's actions come into conflict with his goals. Thus of course it's related to organized crime. However you can't compare it with a show that actually delves into it realistically (yup, "The Wire".) I guess I was quite vague when I wrote the original thread post - Gotham is a show about crime, that much we should be able to agree on. Crime is a male-dominated venue - men are more criminal and more aggressive than women. I'll simply leave out how much of that is social or not, it's irrelevant to the discussion right now.

 

Other points:

 

Gotham isn't as bad with the "women for dramatic effect, men as mere afterthoughts" aspect of killing as many shows, but that's mainly because Gotham actually uses women as knockovers as well. The main sexist paradigm is how the deaths of the women shape the men but the deaths of the men don't shape the women. And yes, I'd love for that to shift.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Telepath

[jhlipton]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Let's get started on this, shall we?

I think we're much closer than I originally thought. Once again, apologies.

 

Yup. In no way do I mean there is no problem with network television.

Definitely. I will say that Gotham is better than most shows, both in having more women of color -- Montoya, Essen, Fish and Tabitha -- and women who are major characters but not primarily love interests -- the above, plus Cat and Flame-Thrower-Girl. I'm sure I've left others out. It's no Sleepy Hollow, where there are 2 black female leads, a black male leads, a Hispanic female lead and only 2 white male leads.  But it's also no Grimm!

 

[T]he last episode passed the Bechdel test, and it did so despite the fact that yes, all of the real leads are men.

Please refresh my memory -- I remember Lee talking to Nora, but that was almost exclusively about Victor. When was the Bechdel Test passed?

 

The main sexist paradigm is how the deaths of the women shape the men but the deaths of the men don't shape the women. And yes, I'd love for that to shift.

There was quite a bit of worry as to how the death of the Wig-Stand would affect Ich on Sleepy Hollow (sorry, but I love that show).  Fortunately, they did a time-jump and Season 2 was covered with a single line.  Abbie, on the other hand, has been greatly "shaped" by the death of Sheriff Corbin.

[Danielg342]

Not that I disagree that Hollywood needs more diversity, but we need to do better than simply demand that Hollywood give us more women and non-white characters- we need to demand that we get good characters who are minorities.

Sure, we can look at this show and see that they actually have been pretty good at "colourblind" casting- but, I would ask, how many of those characters have been memorable? The two fan favourites are arguably Harvey Bullock and Penguin, the main character is Jim, and the only other characters with long term, independent storylines are Bruce and Nygma. Furthermore, when the show opted to cast Galavan, they went for a white Briton when nothing about the character suggests that it had to have been filled by a white man (heck, his sister is black).

Granted, last season we did have Sal Maroni, played by Puerto Rican David Zayas, but he certainly "passed" for white, didn't he? I'll also mention that Hugo Strange has promise, but I want to see how long he lasts first.

[Kathemy]

Please refresh my memory -- I remember Lee talking to Nora, but that was almost exclusively about Victor. When was the Bechdel Test passed?

Lee and Nora mostly talked about Victor but Lee also talked to Peabody in reference to Barbara.

[jhlipton]

Lee and Nora mostly talked about Victor but Lee also talked to Peabody in reference to Barbara.

 

Thanks.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Season 3 says the heck with it and just fills the city with superpowered bad guys to fight. Monty Ashley's got questions!

View the full article

(Wasn't sure where to put this...) Glad the recapper mentioned about the Smiths, because I was going to mention it, too. It's really interesting that Jada is back on the show while Will is in the movies. I can't help but wonder if those two things are related <-- pure speculation.

[jhlipton]

One problem with Bruce's "I will not kill" policy: Once it becomes known amongst criminals, Batman's penchant for dangling people from the top of buildings loses all its effect.  "Tell me who you're working for or I'll let go!"  "No you won't!  'I will not kill', amIrite?"  "Damn!"  

[paigow]

In Captain America: TWS, Sitwell knew that Rogers would never throw him off the building, but did not expect him to let Black Widow do it. This version of Jim Gordon replaces Black Widow.

[jhlipton]

"I will not kill, but I'll sub-contract" is a worse rule than just :I will not kill".  Does Batman avoid all moral responsibility if he has an agent do what he won't?  Bosh and rubbish.

[Miss Dee]

Don't know how they handle that in the comics, but I'm guessing "I will not kill" means "if I get you into my clutches I'll put you in custody instead of beating you to death with my bare hands in a blind rage." So he wouldn't throw you off a building, but he might not rush over to save you if you're hanging by your fingertips and he'd probably be non-interfering if Black Widow did it instead.

So I don't think "I will not kill" means he thinks these guys shouldn't die due to some moral repugnance with the notion. He's quite fine with letting the world (including other people) deal out harsh consequences, but he knows he can't cross that line himself without turning into the kind of monster he's committed to stopping. So the rule is for himself, not to save the people he's fighting. Batman doesn't care if you die, but he's not going to damn himself by killing you.

[Danielg342]

I'd think the average criminal isn't going to think, "this is Batman...he won't actually kill me." He's probably freaking out and would think of everything he can to get himself from being dangled off that ledge.

Now, a seasoned crook, one more likely to know Batman and his actual habits (I'd imagine a "real life" Batman would be shrouded in myth) might think "this is Batman...he won't kill me." To which Batman, if he's smart, would adpat to that and try a different tactic...and a good writer would make that work.

[jhlipton]

Just now, Danielg342 said:

Now, a seasoned crook, one more likely to know Batman and his actual habits (I'd imagine a "real life" Batman would be shrouded in myth) might think "this is Batman...he won't kill me." To which Batman, if he's smart, would adpat to that and try a different tactic...and a good writer would make that work.

Right.  Someone who's dealt with Batman might know his creed and the writers should make that work.  

On Lucifer, the Devil will not lie.  His mother used that against him, and the writers made it work beautifully (but they're among the best writers around).

[Kathemy]

Lucifer is a very decent procedural cop show with a fantastic lead. At the same time it's pretty infuriating in how it teases its audience, but I guess this entire post would fit better in another forum.

It's easy for Lucifer to do pretty well. It's got lower production values and it's not even close to as ambitious as Gotham. In modern broadcast television ambitious means long arcs which means reliance on an audience attention span which isn't there. And, it doesn't help that Gotham's lead character doesn't work. At all. Period.

This isn't to say that there were no factors making people tune out over the run of the show, there were several, but in my opinion Gotham's "high" is ten times Lucifer's high.

[Dame sans merci]

On the topic of Lucifer, it was actually renewed yesterday, with a full 22 episode order. So, I wouldn't expect it to be too long until we get word of a Gotham renewal...

...and, just looking at the viewing figures for 24 and APB which have replaced Gotham and Lucifer, neither are performing very well. APB (Lucifer's replacement) might go fractional next week seeing as its dropping like a stone, and - given all the fanfare that 24 legacy got, as well as the post-Superbowl slot - it's doing the same demo numbers as Gotham, which gets bugger-all promotion. Yikes. In the current television landscape, Gotham is one of Fox's most stable and reliable performers.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Blackcanary

[jhlipton]

The only reason I brought up Lucifer was to show how another program handled the "I will not..." problem. His mother used the fact that he will not lie, no matter what, to maneuver him into a tight spot.  Both the stratagem and the way out were handled by good writing.

In the same way, Batman's "I will not kill" could be used against him, and his way out could be clever and appropriate, if the writing staff was up to the challenge.  I don't feel the writers of this show are.

[Kathemy]

In my humble opinion Lucifer isn't even close to Gotham's level. It never shoots for the stars, it's basically a police procedural with a twist, saved by a charismatic lead. And talking about "clever" stuff... Would you say their constant teasing about the big Chloe reveal is clever? How about when they teased a Chloe/Lucifer kiss in the promo for the Fall finale and then actually used that tease as the cliffhanger for the break?!

Gotham is sometimes awkward and oftentimes poorly paced or focused on the least interesting parts of the show but when they succeed you have fireworks.

As for Gotham's renewal "chances" 24: Legacy's fourth episode just tied Gotham's all time low. I expect it to go fractional on Monday. Then we have this which really must be read:

Quote

 

Six scripted broadcast shows (black-ish, Madam Secretary, Scorpion, NCIS:New Orleans, Jane The Virgin and The Flash) are guaranteed to be renewed for a season four in 2017-18.

Why?

Each of those shows finished their second seasons with at least 44 episodes, and should have a full season of 22 episodes in their third seasons to finish with at least 66 episodes after three seasons (JtV will have 20 for a total of 64, close enough). All of them are also produced by their network’s own studio.

That leads to the following guarantee:

The Guarantee of The Syndication Gods
No show produced by a network’s own studio in the past nine seasons that finished its third season with at least 66 episodes has failed to be renewed for a fourth season.

What about Gotham?

Gotham finished its second season with 44 episodes, and will reach 66 at the end of this season, why isn’t its season four renewal just as certain? Because Gotham is produced by Warner Brothers and not Fox. In cases like this, there’s a second rule the reaper follows…

The Very Strong Suggestion Of The Syndication Gods
A show that finishes its third season with at least 66 episodes, but isn’t produced by the network’s own studio, is very likely but not certain to be renewed for a fourth season. If canceled, it’s very likely to get a fourth season elsewhere.

Note: The only show to complete 3 seasons and 66 episodes and be canceled in the last nine seasons (The Mindy Project, produced by NBCU) was picked up by Hulu after being canceled by Fox. Others (like Cougar Town) to finish three seasons with fewer than 66 were also picked up elsewhere.

http://www.tvgrimreaper.com/2016/09/19/predictions-week-1-blackish-madamsecretary-scorpion-ncisneworleans-janethevirgin-theflash-are-certain-to-be-renewed/1933/

Quote

 

[jhlipton]

On 2/23/2017 at 7:02 AM, Kathemy said:

{1} In my humble opinion Lucifer isn't even close to Gotham's level.

{2} As for Gotham's renewal "chances" 24: Legacy's fourth episode just tied Gotham's all time low. I expect it to go fractional on Monday.

{1} I agree, just in the opposite direction from you!  LOL

{2} Both Gotham and 24: Legacy are currently "Likely to be renewed", and Lucifer has already been renewed.  Scream Queens, The Exorcist, Sleepy Hollow and Rosewood are the shows in trouble that I wouldn't mind seeing gone, especially SH.  Pitch is also in trouble, but I hope it stays.

[Kathemy]

The Legacy prediction is understandably uncertain given the small number of episodes aired. It's currently got a higher avg than Gotham but it doesn't seem to have stabilized at its low yet.

TVG has abandoned the "certain to be renewed" for shows that aren't 100 proof syndication-guaranteed, and Gotham is not.

[Perfect Xero]

On 2/9/2017 at 1:11 PM, jhlipton said:

One problem with Bruce's "I will not kill" policy: Once it becomes known amongst criminals, Batman's penchant for dangling people from the top of buildings loses all its effect.  "Tell me who you're working for or I'll let go!"  "No you won't!  'I will not kill', amIrite?"  "Damn!"  

The first Arkham video game there's a bit with two of the thugs talking, it goes something along the lines of:

Thug 1: I'm not afraid of Batman, he never kills anyone.

Thug 2: Buddy I ran across Batman last year, he broke both my legs, three ribs, and beat me so badly that I was stuck in a hospital bed for months wishing that I was dead.

So he might not drop you to your death if you call his bluff, but he'll probably drop you and slow your descent just enough with a bat line that you end up in the hospital instead of the morgue.

Also, it's probably hard to be rational and trust that the guy who is crazy enough to dress up like a bat isn't going to kill you just because you've heard that he has a rule against it.

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The first Arkham video game there's a bit with two of the thugs talking, it goes something along the lines of:

Thug 1: I'm not afraid of Batman, he never kills anyone.

Thug 2: Buddy I ran across Batman last year, he broke both my legs, three ribs, and beat me so badly that I was stuck in a hospital bed for months wishing that I was dead.

So he might not drop you to your death if you call his bluff, but he'll probably drop you and slow your descent just enough with a bat line that you end up in the hospital instead of the morgue.

Also, it's probably hard to be rational and trust that the guy who is crazy enough to dress up like a bat isn't going to kill you just because you've heard that he has a rule against it.

Those are excellent points!

[Danielg342]

...but then, the converse is "what's a few broken ribs if I get to keep doing my job?" Maybe it will stop Mr. Low Level Thug, but for The Joker, it's "the price of doing business".

[paigow]

In Batman: The Killing Joke, Bruce acknowledges that his relationship with Joker has reached the Kill or be Killed stage.

[Perfect Xero]

Personally I've always liked the interpretation that Batman killed the Joker at the end of The Killing Joke.

[jhlipton]

22 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Personally I've always liked the interpretation that Batman killed the Joker at the end of The Killing Joke.

What I remember is them yucking it up together.  After what the Joker did to Barbara Gordan.  Ha f**ing ha.

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

What I remember is them yucking it up together.  After what the Joker did to Barbara Gordan.  Ha f**ing ha.

That's part of it the interpretation, that Batman is laughing manically because he's finally been pushed over the edge as the Joker rather soberly tells Batman that it's too late for him to be rehabilitated and then tells a joke that serves as a metaphor for their dynamic. He's realized that he has to kill the Joker to stop this from happening again.

Then the laughter abruptly stops as the panel suddenly cuts to showing their feet washed in the red of the police lights.

[frogzapper]

Hey - did anyone here go to WonderCon in Anaheim last weekend and attend the Gotham panel?

The whole panel was great (although my Gotham crush, Robin Lord Taylor, wasn't there, lol!) , but I was especially impressed with the two youngsters, David Mazouz and Camren Bicondova. They both gave thoughtful answers to their questions and Camren was absolutely adorable! 

[Miss Dee]

Cool! I'd love to go to a con someday.

Any great spoilers or behind the scenes info you can share with us?

[frogzapper]

I don't recall any spoilers really, they just showed a montage of short preview clips for the upcoming season. Looks like Bruce goes through some intensive training with a new mentor, kind of like "Batman Begins" inspired martial arts and stuff like that. One of the actresses mentioned

Spoiler

that Fish Mooney will be back again.

Edited April 6, 2017 by saoirse
Added spoiler tag

[Miss Dee]

Cool, Bruce is the main draw for me so I'm looking forward to that stuff! Thanks!

[paigow]

Did they just hire Blindspot writers to name the episodes? Pretty Hate Machine; HeavyDirtySoul....?????

[Kostgard]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Did they just hire Blindspot writers to name the episodes? Pretty Hate Machine; HeavyDirtySoul....?????

They've been using song titles as episode titles for these last three episodes. Not entirely sure why. Feel free to parse the lyrics to look for meaning:

Episode 20: Pretty Hate Machine (song by Nine Inch Nails):

A Sample:

I still recall the taste of your tears/Echoing your voice just like the ringing in my ears/My favorite dreams of you still wash ashore/Scraping through my head till I don't want to sleep anymore

You make this all go away/You make this all go away
I'm down to just one thing and I'm starting to scare myself/You make this all go away/You make this all go away/I just want something/I just want something I can never have

You always were the one to show me how/Back then I couldn't do the things that I can do now/This thing is slowly taking me apart/Grey would be the color if I had a heart

In this place it seems like such a shame/Though it all looks different now, I know it's still the same/Everywhere I look you're all I see/Just a fading f___ing reminder of who I used to be

 

Episode 21: Destiny Calling (Song by James)

This one might be a little easier to figure out, what the the repeated mention of "Freaks"

So we maybe gorgeous/So we maybe famous/Come back when we're getting old

Cover us in chocolate/Sell us to the neighbors/Frame us on a video

Clone us in a test tube/Sell us to the multitude/Guess that's the price of fame

She likes the black one/He likes the the posh one/Cute ones are usually gay

Here we come this is our destiny calling/We're freaks/This is our destiny calling/Unique/This is our destiny calling now

 

Episode 22: HeavyDirtySoul (song by Twenty One Pilots)

There's an infestation in my mind's imagination/I hope they choke on smoke cause I'm smoking them out the basement/This is not rap, this is not hip-hop/Just another attempt to make the voices stop/Rapping to prove nothing, just writing to say something/'Cause I wasn't the only one who wasn't rushing to say nothing/This doesn't mean I lost my dream/It's just right now I got a really crazy mind to clean

Gangsters don't cry/Therefore, therefore I'm/Mr. Misty-eye, therefore I'm

Can you save/Can you save my/Can you save my heavy dirty soul?