Unpopular Opinions

[Llywela]

Tom's conversation and role aux-host was "interesting" but would it have been possible, would everyone have been so charmed, if he had not lost any trace (whatsoever) of his Irish accent (not that the Tom we have ever seen was credibly Irish, except by declaration -- unless Tom was raised in England as part of some backstory I've forgotten ... ) etc. 

Would Chamberlain have engaged in small talk with Tom if he'd been sporting an Irish brogue ... even as some vague Crawley son-in-law? 

Tom does still have an Irish accent. It isn't a very thick brogue, no, but that's because there are variants of accent all over Ireland just as there are variants of accent all over England, Wales and Scotland. Tom's accent may not be thick, but his Irish lilt exists nonetheless and is audible every time he speaks, in the same way that Mrs Hughes' soft Scottish lilt is audible every time she speaks.

[Andorra]

Why shouldn't talk Chamberlain to Tom just because he's Irish? They were not "enemies". There were a lot of Irish people living in England and not all of them rebels and living in the gutter. He probably has no idea about Tom's originis and although he will likely figure out, that Tom is apparantly of somewhat lower birth than the Crawleys, Tom is not obviously working class. His manners and conversation is skilled enough to pass for middleclass by now.  

Tom is still sounding very Irish. Not a broad accent, but still audible. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Andorra

[SusanSunflower]

I don't hear Tom's Irish accent at all anymore. I've been hearing him adopting Mary's exaggerated upper crust drawl, as in the scene in the "office." With every episode, I see him become more and more Robert's mini-me . Not a matter of hostilities with Ireland, rather surprise at finding an Irish family member at Downton ... Where or through whom would Sybil have met such a person ... were they so commonplace as to not surprise or to pass without mention? 

[Llywela]

The Irish travelled far and wide - they wouldn't have been common in an English aristocrat's household, but not unheard of. And Tom definitely still has his Irish accent.

[Andorra]

I don't hear Tom's Irish accent at all anymore. I've been hearing him adopting Mary's exaggerated upper crust drawl, as in the scene in the "office." With every episode, I see him become more and more Robert's mini-me . Not a matter of hostilities with Ireland, rather surprise at finding an Irish family member at Downton ... Where or through whom would Sybil have met such a person ... were they so commonplace as to not surprise or to pass without mention? 

 

What?  He has no "posh" accent at all! Sorry, but where are you ears? He still has his Dublin accent, just as he always had and as Allen has in real life, too. He ist says "oup" instead of "up" and "oi" instead of "I". He also has no real "th"  and says "eart" instead of "earth" for example. LOL, It's certainly not RP what he is talking!

 

And yes, Sybil could have met an Irish man everywhere. The surprise would be for him not to be Aristocratic, but I bet the "scandal" of her marriage was well known. He could pass off as a middleclass man though which would still considered a mesaillance, but not a really bad one. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Andorra

[AllyB]

I don't hear Tom's Irish accent at all anymore. I've been hearing him adopting Mary's exaggerated upper crust drawl, as in the scene in the "office."

Tom speaks in Alan Leech's accent (ie Leech just speaks as he normally speaks rather than putting on an accent while playing Tom) which is 100% Irish. We don't all speak with exaggerated Chief O'Hara twangs. In fact you wouldn't guess at all where most of us are from. Whenever I'm in the US and someone asks me where I'm from people assume I am saying Iowa rather than Ireland the vast, vast majority of the time. Kind of weird as I don't think I sound American in the slightest but what people think of as an Irish accent and what an Irish accent actually is, tend to be two very different things.

Edited February 2, 2016 by AllyB

[Avaleigh]

I still hear Tom's accent. It's the accents of the children that don't sound posh. 

 

I suspect this explanation. Of course Robert and Cora were disappointed when they didn't got a son who alone could inherit the title and the estate, but why would they be most disappointed with their first daughter? It would make more sense that they would have more disappointed when the second daughter was born and even more when the third daughter was born.

 

 

Yeah, it reminds me of Nancy Mitford telling her youngest sister Deborah (the sixth girl and final child of her parents) "Everyone cried when you were born." 

 

I agree that it makes more sense that Sybil would feel the guilt of not being the boy. 

 

I've never seen any evidence that Mary was favored over the other girls growing up. They all had the same advantages and privileges in terms of their parents support. Their upbringings were identical. Things didn't change until they went through the debutante phase where Mary was more successful than Edith. 

 

I think most of Mary's would-be suitors look alike. If they were side by side in the same room, I know I would be able to distinguish between them. But in my mind they all blur into the same sort of cookie-cutter guy. I can't keep them straight.

 

 

This is actually a very popular opinion. 

 

I have the unpopular opinion that these guys couldn't look more different unless they were different races. Blake and Gillingham in particular look nothing alike in my opinion apart from having dark hair. The actor who plays Evelyn has the most striking eyes, he never looked like either one to me. 

[Roseanna]

I've never seen any evidence that Mary was favored over the other girls growing up. They all had the same advantages and privileges in terms of their parents support. Their upbringings were identical. Things didn't change until they went through the debutante phase where Mary was more successful than Edith. 

 

We have actually heard from Carson to tell fond memories ​of Mary when she was five years old and could wrap him around her little finger. Later Carson comforted the baby Sybbie and told that she was just like her mother. Of Edith as a baby he has never told anything.

 

Of course we haven't seen how Robert and Cora, or the nannies, treated their daughters when they young, but I doubt that it was  just the same. The eldest child gets naturally more attention as she is the only child and all she does is new and wonderful to the parents. On the other hand, often one expects more of the eldest. Even after the second child is born, the eldest child learns new things earlier the younger, but on the other hand the eldest can detest that she is no longer the sole center of attention. The youngest child is treated with less severely, even spoiled. It hardly a coincidence that Cora calls Sybil "my baby" even when she is an adult. Mary no doubt got heard that she was "a big girl" once Edith was born. 

 

 I can't simply believe that the intense rivalry and even downright malice between the sisters began only because Mary succeeded in her season and Edith didn't and their parents then began to treat them differently. Edith wasn't only "the ugly duckling" in S1 but she was also lacking any sense how to please people whereas Mary only pleased them only when she wanted to do it. These traits was of course partly due to their characters, but social skills can also learned and Cora evidently didn't bother to taught them to Edith, nor how to dress to hide her worse parts.

 

Most of all, Cora was most of all interested in marry Mary off which was of course natural in the time. However, let's remember Sir Thomas in Mansfield Park regretted that his daughters were taught only outer manners (i.e. how a lady behaves) but not how to curb themselves and their desires out of duty.        

 

 Also, it's funny, but actually very sad, that we heard Robert say the first time to her his daughters "don't quarrel" in S6 when they are over thirty!  

[SusanSunflower]

First children have their parents' full attention for however many years elapse before they get a sibling. They may be smothered by the anxiety of inexperienced parents but most children thrive on attention. Sibling rivalry is real enough and the older, bigger, more "competent" in getting what he/she wants child has the advantage. We don't know when Mary became Daddy's girl -- and if you say she's no daddy's girl, I'd say it's relative -- Until Edith demonstrated her competence recently, Robert (and Cora) seemed to me to be remarkably hands-off (even oblivious) parents . If Sybil or Edith were competent horsewomen, it was never shown. (Robert's range of interests is so very limited it's hard to find common ground)

[Avaleigh]

We have actually heard from Carson to tell fond memories ​of Mary when she was five years old and could wrap him around her little finger. Later Carson comforted the baby Sybbie and told that she was just like her mother. Of Edith as a baby he has never told anything.

 

Of course we haven't seen how Robert and Cora, or the nannies, treated their daughters when they young, but I doubt that it was  just the same. The eldest child gets naturally more attention as she is the only child and all she does is new and wonderful to the parents. On the other hand, often one expects more of the eldest. Even after the second child is born, the eldest child learns new things earlier the younger, but on the other hand the eldest can detest that she is no longer the sole center of attention. The youngest child is treated with less severely, even spoiled. It hardly a coincidence that Cora calls Sybil "my baby" even when she is an adult. Mary no doubt got heard that she was "a big girl" once Edith was born. 

 

 I can't simply believe that the intense rivalry and even downright malice between the sisters began only because Mary succeeded in her season and Edith didn't and their parents then began to treat them differently. Edith wasn't only "the ugly duckling" in S1 but she was also lacking any sense how to please people whereas Mary only pleased them only when she wanted to do it. These traits was of course partly due to their characters, but social skills can also learned and Cora evidently didn't bother to taught them to Edith, nor how to dress to hide her worse parts.

 

Most of all, Cora was most of all interested in marry Mary off which was of course natural in the time. However, let's remember Sir Thomas in Mansfield Park regretted that his daughters were taught only outer manners (i.e. how a lady behaves) but not how to curb themselves and their desires out of duty.        

 

 Also, it's funny, but actually very sad, that we heard Robert say the first time to her his daughters "don't quarrel" in S6 when they are over thirty!  

Carson has one very specific memory of Mary when she was young that he shares with Mrs. Hughes. It's when little Mary wants money to runaway from home because she's so unhappy. I'm sure that Mary was being dramatic the way that children like to be but that memory doesn't sound like Mary is the girl who is treated better than her sisters where she's the princess who's always getting her way while the others are ignored. 

 

I disagree that Cora wasn't teaching Edith or correcting her when she would be obnoxious. We see Cora try all of the time with her middle daughter in every season. I've never seen evidence that Cora pays more attention to Edith than Mary. People think because Cora once invited Strallan to dinner that she was moving oceans to marry Mary off to anyone who would have her and I think that's just an overall misunderstanding of that situation. 

 

Edith had all of the things that Mary had only she wasn't as pretty and it was harder for her to get the attention of men. As far as having the love of their parents, Sybil, having a privileged life, being able to go to parties and meet people, being given beautiful clothes just like her sisters, same holidays, same education, etc. 

[ZoloftBlob]

It's the accents of the children that don't sound posh.

 

Well, they're rarely allowed to speak but yeah.

[Andorra]

Well, it would be difficult to find posh children actors. I think prince George probably isn't available for the job even though his parents are fans of the show. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Andorra

[pawneerangers]

Amazon Prime lets me stream this for free and now that I finished watching for the second time I am very happy to find this thread!  

 

Edith and Bertie are destined to go down as my favorite Downton Abbey couple. I know some find Bertie boring but there is just something that I love about him. Edith is one of those people who is so much nicer when she's happy and he brings out the best in her. 

 

I want to like Cora because gentle women with steely cores really interest me but the main reason I can't is that Cora always speaks in a way that drives me crazy. I can't explain it but it really distracts me. I'm American and that is like no accent I have ever come across. I know it's dumb to let it get in the way of appreciating her character but it's just that it always reminds me there's an actress sitting there trying to say her lines instead of letting me focus on the character.

 

Mary was more human when Matthew was around but I didn't think that Matthew himself was a very interesting character. 

 

I loved Tom and Sybil in the first season much more than Mary and Matthew but by the second season Tom just seemed angry and pushy and that continued when he returned with her in the third season. Then he changed again and just became boring and like he no longer had real beliefs or passion at all. I don't even know who he was supposed to be the last few seasons or why he was still on the show. 

 

Edith's suitors were much more appealing to me than Mary's. Matthew was fine but not as interesting as I expected him to be, and I don't really like Tony Gillingham, Charles Blake or Henry at all.  I love Bertie and Anthony Strallan and even liked Michael Gregson though I understand why some people don't. 

 

I was excited about Carson and Hughes getting together but he's been so terrible since they got married that I am almost at the point of wishing they had stayed just friends. 

 

Mary is an interesting character but a lot of times Julian Fellowes makes it almost impossible not to hate her. I hate when writers confuse being a strong female character with being mean. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

I want to like Cora because gentle women with steely cores really interest me but the main reason I can't is that Cora always speaks in a way that drives me crazy. I can't explain it but it really distracts me. I'm American and that is like no accent I have ever come across. I know it's dumb to let it get in the way of appreciating her character but it's just that it always reminds me there's an actress sitting there trying to say her lines instead of letting me focus on the character.

 

I agree, I just started re-watching from the beginning, and her stilted way of speaking, and always cocking her head has worsened as the seasons have worn on.  Her lines are sing-songy at times, and she places emphasis on weird parts of sentences.  I was kind of startled that she really wasn't so bad at first -- I don't know what is behind that, if it was her own idea or she was somehow directed that way. 

[skyways]

Edith and Bertie are destined to go down as my favorite Downton Abbey couple

 

I think most changed their views of Bertie, me included. I don't really care particularly for Edith but her romance was nice to watch.

[AndySmith]

So is not liking Bertie an UO now? If so, then...I still don't care for him. I mean he is a nice guy, and good for Edith, but...blah.

[Bananna]

I absoluetly HATED Rosamund, for no reason, I just never liked her.

[pawneerangers]

I absoluetly HATED Rosamund, for no reason, I just never liked her.

 

I feel the same way but can't explain why either. If you described the character to me I would think I'd really like her but I just couldn't stand her scenes. She was really awful when Cora came up with the plan to explain Marigold living at Downton, negative and judgmental without coming up with any better suggestions. She always came off as arrogant and unlikable to me. I was happy she wasn't around much.  

[TheGreenKnight]

Strallan/Edith, Anna/Bates, Bertie/Edith, and Isobel/Merton are the only couples on this show I could get behind. (And Molesley/Baxter if they count.) Sybil/Tom, Gregson/Edith, and even Matthew/Mary never completely gelled with me. Matthew/Mary had so much chemistry and he brought out the best in her, but I agree with pawneerangers that he wasn't too interesting as an individual character and Mary was awful to him in season 3, to the point that I couldn't root for them as a couple. Matthew probably lucked out dying early because I could have seen Shrimpie/Susan as their future. I feel the same about Carson and Hughes; their chemistry on the show was and is fantastic, but Hughes deserves a better husband than he's been shown to be.

 

On re-watch, Gregson feels like he was only there to setup the unmarried mother storyline; everything about it felt a bit contrived making it seem like Fellowes was just interested in exploring that kind of story, just like the jilted at the altar storyline felt hamfisted in there. Here, let's conveniently have sex, and you conveniently sign this important document, just before I go off to Germany to conveniently get killed by some Nazis at the worst time. Also, the way Edith became suddenly more interested in Gregson after Matthew disapproved felt just like the beginning of the Sybil/Tom relationship, which I disliked for the same reason. But, all in all, Gregson was just dull. Another one--

I didn't really mind Mary/Henry. Maybe it's because I knew Mary didn't end up with Tom from the get-go when I finally viewed the last episodes, but it kind of worked for me? The only problem was how rushed it was.

 

I could've enjoyed O'Brien/Lang if they hadn't shipped that character off. I liked Jack Ross on the show, but Rose was just trying to hurt her mother which kept me from liking them. Too bad they didn't think to create Ross for Thomas instead.

[kpw801]

As I have rewatched the series like the addict I am, I have come to the conclusion that most of Thomas Barrow's wickedness and conniving came from the only real sociopath under the Downton roof.  Miss O'Brien was the most dangerous grudge bearing evil person JF ever created!  Barrow and O'Brien would smoke and complain but it was O'Brien, who kicked the cane out from Bates.  It was O'Brien who came up with every plot against Mr. Bates.  The thing about Thomas, he reaped what he sowed when he was too stupid to remember how she once told him that she held a grudge longer than he did.  He should have take a hint when those dress shirts went missing.  

 

I always hated the way JF dumped on Molesley and Edith, but the way he let O'Brien get away with every evil thing she ever did was too much.  I think he likes bullies to get happy endings. O'Brien became the lady's maid to a Marchioness and then lady's maid to the wife of an ambassador to India.  Thomas ends up with Carson's job.  Mary nearly ruins Edith's life and spoils Edith's opportunity to tell Bertie about Marigold herself.  Larry and Amelia get Lord Merton's estate.  Daisy should have been fired!

Edited February 16, 2016 by kpw801

[kpw801]

Amazon Prime lets me stream this for free and now that I finished watching for the second time I am very happy to find this thread!  

 

Edith and Bertie are destined to go down as my favorite Downton Abbey couple. I know some find Bertie boring but there is just something that I love about him. Edith is one of those people who is so much nicer when she's happy and he brings out the best in her. 

 

I want to like Cora because gentle women with steely cores really interest me but the main reason I can't is that Cora always speaks in a way that drives me crazy. I can't explain it but it really distracts me. I'm American and that is like no accent I have ever come across. I know it's dumb to let it get in the way of appreciating her character but it's just that it always reminds me there's an actress sitting there trying to say her lines instead of letting me focus on the character.

 

Mary was more human when Matthew was around but I didn't think that Matthew himself was a very interesting character. 

 

I loved Tom and Sybil in the first season much more than Mary and Matthew but by the second season Tom just seemed angry and pushy and that continued when he returned with her in the third season. Then he changed again and just became boring and like he no longer had real beliefs or passion at all. I don't even know who he was supposed to be the last few seasons or why he was still on the show. 

 

Edith's suitors were much more appealing to me than Mary's. Matthew was fine but not as interesting as I expected him to be, and I don't really like Tony Gillingham, Charles Blake or Henry at all.  I love Bertie and Anthony Strallan and even liked Michael Gregson though I understand why some people don't. 

 

I was excited about Carson and Hughes getting together but he's been so terrible since they got married that I am almost at the point of wishing they had stayed just friends. 

 

Mary is an interesting character but a lot of times Julian Fellowes makes it almost impossible not to hate her. I hate when writers confuse being a strong female character with being mean. 

Yes.  Matthew was not that interesting.  He got on my last nerve with that "I can't accept the money!  It would be like stealing..."  He was absolutely stupid!!  

[sark1624]

As I have rewatched the series like the addict I am, I have come to the conclusion that most of Thomas Barrow's wickedness and conniving came from the only real sociopath under the Downton roof.  Miss O'Brien was the most dangerous grudge bearing evil person JF ever created!  Barrow and O'Brien would smoke and complain but it was O'Brien, who kicked the cane out from Bates.  It was O'Brien who came up with every plot against Mr. Bates.  The thing about Thomas, he reaped what he sowed when he was too stupid to remember how she once told him that she held a grudge longer than he did.  He should have take a hint when those dress shirts went missing.  

 

I always hated the way JF dumped on Molesley and Edith, but the way he let O'Brien get away with every evil thing she ever did was too much.  I think he likes bullies to get happy endings. O'Brien became the lady's maid to a Marchioness and then the wife of an ambassador to India.  Thomas ends up with Carson's job.  Mary nearly ruins Edith's life and spoils Edith's opportunity to tell Bertie about Marigold herself.  Larry and Amelia get Lord Merton's estate.  Daisy should have been fired!

 

You are right there, to me is that JF often confuses being a bully insted of being determinated or strong. 

[amensisterfriend]

After just reading the recaps for the most recent episode, I'm reminded of what might be my most unpopular opinion: I really don't think Matthew Goode is THAT extraordinary looking! I mean, he's fine and everything, but for some reason I'm just not seeing this 'most devastatingly handsome guy ever to walk the earth' thing that most do. Maybe I'm influenced by how he seems to have less than no personality, and what little we do see is somehow vaguely unpleasant to me? And I just don't see any connection or chemistry between him and Mary at all.

 

Speaking of Mary's men, ITA that Matthew wasn't really a well-defined, compelling or distinctive character. (If enough of us feel that way, is it still a UO?!) That said, I do miss him sometimes---not really as an individual, but just because his presence made Mary eminently more human and (comparatively!) likable to me.

 

And a really UO here is that while I wish for a variety of reasons that Mary could just be contentedly single, if she HAD to end up with a suitor, I wish it had been Charles Blake. He had this mischievous sense of humor and (mostly benign) enthusiasm for scheming that I think would have complemented Mary well, bringing out her slightly warmer and more fun side and allowing her to banter and spar with a man who wasn't quite as intimidated by her as the others seem to be. Gillingham and Henry---and their dynamics with Mary---are just so dull to me. 

 

I'm with those who love Bertie, but part of me will always miss Strallan and how Edith just seemed to light up around him. I get why people are put off by the age difference---er, not to mention the whole 'leaving her at the altar' thing---but I'll always have a huge soft spot for him. I assume it's unpopular that Anthony Strallan is still one of my top four or five favorite male DA characters :)  Molesley is on that list as well! 

[SusanSunflower]

Matthew was a good-natured well-spring of simple bourgeois happiness and forgiveness from pretty much his first appearance in the first episode, when he rightly resents the expectation that he "chose a daughter" ... see P&P).  He rolled with the punches but never descended into ugly grudge holding or resentment.  In that, he's never been replaced or rivaled, only the similarly non-grudge-holding Mr. Molesley. Matthew was a "golden child" -- too "good" by half -- but for the most part Stevens managed to avoid Matthew being cloyingly too perfect - YMMV. 

Edited February 15, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[amensisterfriend]

So as someone obsessed with P&P (see what you unleashed, Susan Sunflower?!), I'm now thinking of comparisons. Would you compare Matthew to Charles Bingley? (With Matthew being a bit sharper!) And now I can't get it out of my head that Mary has the tendency to be a bit like Caroline Bingley while Violet is totally Catherine de Bourgh :)  

[Roseanna]

As I have rewatched the series like the addict I am, I have come to the conclusion that most of Thomas Barrow's wickedness and conniving came from the only real sociopath under the Downton roof.  Miss O'Brien was the most dangerous grudge bearing evil person JF ever created!  Barrow and O'Brien would smoke and complain but it was O'Brien, who kicked the cane out from Bates.  It was O'Brien who came up with every plot against Mr. Bates.  The thing about Thomas, he reaped what he sowed when he was too stupid to remember how she once told him that she held a grudge longer than he did.  He should have take a hint when those dress shirts went missing.  

 

And it was O'Brien who, hearing Cora talk how Mary and Edith are constantly in each other's throat, got the idea to tell Edith that Daisy knows something about Pamuk and Mary and that Edith could use that information to hurt Mary. Which Edith indeed did, but only after Mary had during the whole episode hurt her many times.

 

Edith's letter was wrong, but she had a motive (revenge). But what was O'Brien's motive? Thomas maybe wanted to hurt others by spreading rumors about Mary and Pamuk because he had been hurt by the gay duke. But Cora who would be hurt if Mary's reputation was hurt had never been anything but kind towards O'Brien (as far as we know). Social resentment? Simply will to make others unhappy? 

 

In any case, one must admire O'Brien that she made again the other (Edith) act and get all the blame. That woman was really wasted as a ladies' maid. She should have worked in a scandal paper  - or in SOE during the WW2!

 

The reason why O'Brien is criticized more leniently than Thomas is perhaps that she suffered of remorse after causing Cora lose her baby and actually she changed her mind but too late. Curiously, that was the only matter where she had a personal interest in S1 - she believed that Cora wanted to fire her when she act searched for a new ladies' maid for Violet          

 

 

[SusanSunflower]

Fellowes wrote Matthew with the same disregard he wrote Mary -- Matthew in the first episodes was intelligent and chaffing a bit at the class differences ... and Mary was -- what -- jealous that this middle-class "nobody" was suddenly the heir and savior of Downton ... her fiancee having just drowned on the Titanic, throwing her own future and the future of Downton into chaos.  

Like the Mary + Pamuk lust, we saw aspects of Matthew in the early episodes that quickly vanished forever ... without a trace...  Matthew's hereditary bloodline erased any other ambition or competence he might have been supposed to harbor -- having not followed in his father's footsteps but become a lawyer instead, bright enough, competent enough, suddenly his significance quickly demoted to his ability to produce an heir and possibly "win" Mary's affection (for the happy ending we all knew was pre-ordained. 

I haven't read P&P in a long time ... movie Bingleys border on simpleton pretty boys, although part of that is because we see Bingley largely through Darcy's alarm for his well-being -- Darcy having been burnt badly by his erstwhile brother, the handsome and chaming (and conniving) Wickham  and eager to avoid his dear friend's rude awakening to the matrimonial plotting of the Bennett clan (father, mother, and all the sisters) 

 

In fact, Bingley's good natured appraisal of Jane is vindicated in the end ... and Darcy's alarm and belief that Jane's affection is shallow is proven baseless ... but, as Jane is dismayed to find, Jane might have gotten over Bingley, if Elizabeth (or Austen) had allowed it -- shades of Emma and S&S .  Elizabeth and Darcy both contributed to Lydia's infatuation with Wickham and her near-ruination at his hands, since didn't Lydia believe Elizabeth's sudden disapproval of Wickman was fickle or do I have the timeline wrong? 

 

Matthew "should have" been much more interesting as Downton's "our middle-class interpreter"  of all things Downton, but Fellowes seemingly was only interested in his potential Marry marriage / Downton savior aspects. 

Edited February 15, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[sark1624]

And it was O'Brien who, hearing Cora talk how Mary and Edith are constantly in each other's throat, got the idea to tell Edith that Daisy knows something about Pamuk and Mary and that Edith could use that information to hurt Mary. Which Edith indeed did, but only after Mary had during the whole episode hurt her many times.

 

Edith's letter was wrong, but she had a motive (revenge). But what was O'Brien's motive? Thomas maybe wanted to hurt others by spreading rumors about Mary and Pamuk because he had been hurt by the gay duke. But Cora who would be hurt if Mary's reputation was hurt had never been anything but kind towards O'Brien (as far as we know). Social resentment? Simply will to make others unhappy? 

 

In any case, one must admire O'Brien that she made again the other (Edith) act and get all the blame. That woman was really wasted as a ladies' maid. She should have worked in a scandal paper  - or in SOE during the WW2!

 

The reason why O'Brien is criticized more leniently than Thomas is perhaps that she suffered of remorse after causing Cora lose her baby and actually she changed her mind but too late. Curiously, that was the only matter where she had a personal interest in S1 - she believed that Cora wanted to fire her when she act searched for a new ladies' maid for Violet          

 

The rumours started because Thomas wrote a letter to some valet (i think that it was Shrimpie´s valet), and that valet start the gossip in London; Violet found out because Susan wrote back asking for that and mocking her in a subtle way. When Thomas found that the valet gossiped about the thing that he wrote he started to panick because if the Crawleys investigated the source of the rumours they will came to him, and they found out that he also lead Pamuk to Mary´s room. He asked advice on O´brien, first she reprimended him about for his stupidity by writting to another servant about the subject, but she came with the idea of involving Edith.

 

I am not justifying Edith in any form, the thing she did was injustificable. 

 

By the way i can not stand Talbot. I dont care if the actor is the hottest guy in the planet, but the character is one of the most boring ones in the series. Its funny that Mary thought that Bertie is boring to a olympic degree, but at least Bertie has substance. 

[Constantinople]

Matthew probably lucked out dying early...

 

Matthew died too soon, but only Robert can die Earl-y.

 

After just reading the recaps for the most recent episode, I'm reminded of what might be my most unpopular opinion: I really don't think Matthew Goode is THAT extraordinary looking! I mean, he's fine and everything, but for some reason I'm just not seeing this 'most devastatingly handsome guy ever to walk the earth' thing that most do. Maybe I'm influenced by how he seems to have less than no personality, and what little we do see is somehow vaguely unpleasant to me? And I just don't see any connection or chemistry between him and Mary at all.

Mary and Henry

Two icebergs that went bump in the night.

 

 

Fellowes wrote Matthew with the same disregard he wrote Mary -- Matthew in the first episodes was intelligent and chaffing a bit at the class differences ... and Mary was -- what -- jealous that this middle-class "nobody" was suddenly the heir and savior of Downton ... her fiancee having just drowned on the Titanic, throwing her own future and the future of Downton into chaos.  

Like the Mary + Pamuk lust, we saw aspects of Matthew in the early episodes that quickly vanished forever ... without a trace...  Matthew's hereditary bloodline erased any other ambition or competence he might have been supposed to harbor -- having not followed in his father's footsteps but become a lawyer instead, bright enough, competent enough, suddenly his significance quickly demoted to his ability to produce an heir and possibly "win" Mary's affection (for the happy ending we all knew was pre-ordained.

Tom's "rough" edges have been smoothed out as well. After starting out as a Socialist and a supporter of the Easter Rising, now he's chumming it up with a leading member of the Conservative & Unionist party.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, it is unceasingly frustrating how much more interesting and better the characters and the story of Downton might have been ... even with the plots and storylines unchanged.  I've lost count of how many times I expected (hoped for) a real blow-out fight or someone bursting into tears ... never.happened.  Most recently Daisy's endless whinging and whining wrt Mr. Mason's farm -- and her guilt wrt her previous outburst possibly having cost this old man his future security -- it could have been a great dramatic, character development for Daisy -- that she's grown up now and her actions have consequences, but no, nothing learned.

 

Similarly, I lost interest in Matthew long before he died because he (essentially) allowed Mary to walk all over him ... in the age before divorce, I cannot imagine how someone like Matthew would react to being "hitched to life" to a woman whose first allegiance was usually to the past and her father (and who kept pulling rank on him) Again, that could have resulted in serious character development for both Mary and Matthew ... something all newly marrieds have to grapple with. Mary bawling Matthew out in front of the lawyer for discussing estate matters (so soon after some calamity - Lavinia's death? -- I've forgotten), should have sparked some sort of tension ... nothing. 

Edited February 15, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

The rumours started because Thomas wrote a letter to some valet (i think that it was Shrimpie´s valet), and that valet start the gossip in London; Violet found out because Susan wrote back asking for that and mocking her in a subtle way. When Thomas found that the valet gossiped about the thing that he wrote he started to panick because if the Crawleys investigated the source of the rumours they will came to him, and they found out that he also lead Pamuk to Mary´s room.

 

Could Thomas really been so stupid that he wouldn't have realized beforehand that if he tells the story another servant, he wouldn't gossip? Thomas being Thomas, he probably wanted just that. There was only one to prevent gossip: to tell nobody.

 

Wasn't Susan's letter to Violet already the third letter? Before Robert got one and Carson got one and showed it to Cora.

[kpw801]

And it was O'Brien who, hearing Cora talk how Mary and Edith are constantly in each other's throat, got the idea to tell Edith that Daisy knows something about Pamuk and Mary and that Edith could use that information to hurt Mary. Which Edith indeed did, but only after Mary had during the whole episode hurt her many times.

 

Edith's letter was wrong, but she had a motive (revenge). But what was O'Brien's motive? Thomas maybe wanted to hurt others by spreading rumors about Mary and Pamuk because he had been hurt by the gay duke. But Cora who would be hurt if Mary's reputation was hurt had never been anything but kind towards O'Brien (as far as we know). Social resentment? Simply will to make others unhappy? 

 

In any case, one must admire O'Brien that she made again the other (Edith) act and get all the blame. That woman was really wasted as a ladies' maid. She should have worked in a scandal paper  - or in SOE during the WW2!

 

The reason why O'Brien is criticized more leniently than Thomas is perhaps that she suffered of remorse after causing Cora lose her baby and actually she changed her mind but too late. Curiously, that was the only matter where she had a personal interest in S1 - she believed that Cora wanted to fire her when she act searched for a new ladies' maid for Violet          

I think the motive for O'Brien was power.  She pretended to be solicitous to Cora to ingratiate herself and manipulate.  When she came up with the idea for Thomas to be the manager, Thomas probably thought she did that for him.  She did that to prove to him and Carson that she really wielded the power in that house.  It really showed in earlier episodes how much of a dim bulb Cora was.  It is astonishing how blind she was to O'Brien's machinations.  The snide remarks she made as she constantly tried to wear down Lord Grantham's tolerance for Bates were so obviously parroting O'Brien's whispers.  That was probably the reason O'Brien hated Bates so much too.  His constant presence reminded her of defeat over and over again.  I wish her soap had come back to haunt her.  It would have been too much for Cora to bear though because everybody else in the family detested the woman.

[craziness]

Kpw801 upthread mentioned that O'brien became the wife of an ambassador in india. I don't remember that, can you mention where we learned that (when rose's parents came for the wedding? In a letter to Alfred or Thomas? ) thank you.

Edited February 16, 2016 by craziness

[AndySmith]

She didn't become the wife of an ambassador, she ended up working for the wife of an ambassador.

Edited February 16, 2016 by AndySmith

[craziness]

Oh. That makes so much more sense. Otherwise, that would be a much bigger story that Gwen's leaving service.

[Andorra]

My unpopular opinion is, that I wish Mary had been married to someone more like Matthew. Smart and nice. I don't understand why Julian Fellowes created her suitors all to be completely different from him. Mary/Matthew had a nice dynamic and after his death she only had this dynamic with Tom. None of the suitors worked for me. Gillingham, Blake and Henry all looked the same and none of them was really nice. 

[AndySmith]

I think JF was damned if he did, damned if he didn't. If we got Mathew 2.0 people would've just complained that he was recycling the Mary/Mathew relationship.

[kpw801]

Kpw801 upthread mentioned that O'brien became the wife of an ambassador in india. I don't remember that, can you mention where we learned that (when rose's parents came for the wedding? In a letter to Alfred or Thomas? ) thank you.

I meant to say the lady's maid to the wife of an ambassador.  I just got a new laptop and my typing is a bit off.  mea culpa.

Kpw801 upthread mentioned that O'brien became the wife of an ambassador in india. I don't remember that, can you mention where we learned that (when rose's parents came for the wedding? In a letter to Alfred or Thomas? ) thank you.

I have edited the post.  O'Brien became lady's maid to a Marchioness - Susan Flintcher.  Then lady's maid to ambassador's wife, (Flintshire and then her successor).  O'Brien was raised in rank since she went from being lady's maid to a countess to being lady's maid to a marchioness who was the wife of an ambassador.  When Susan Flintcher left India, O'Brien was then the lady's maid to the next wife of the ambassador.  I just bought a new laptop.  Typing is not so easy yet.

[photo fox]

Guys, remember, mentions of what has happened in the episodes that haven't aired in the US are considered spoilers outside of the individual episode topics, and should be tagged accordingly.

 

We only have two weeks left, let's do what we can to not spoil it for others.

[SusanSunflower]

Why is Mr. Carson hell-bent on Mrs. Hughes cooking him dinner, when they have both had an ample lunch at Downton and could easily "make do" with a fairly light "tea" in the evening? 

 

Does Carson have unspoken ambitions for Mrs. Hughes to play cook at their B&B (or hotel or whatever they're planning) in addition to housekeeper and chief bottlewasher? This all might have made better sense if it y'know made sense. Carson is fat enough as he is without two multi-course meals a day and -- so much for continuity -- Mrs. Hughes appears to have dropped 20+ pounds since last season (and looking the better, younger for it). Carson's also not quite as over-stuffed as he was. 

 

Is he sending her to the kitchen to avoid talking to her? 

[craziness]

Kpw801 - thank you for the clarification. I think I could have read a little more carefully, and would have got it without having to ask. I was just so surprised at the thought of O'Brien bettering herself soooooooo much. Moving up the ladies maid ranking was still good, of course.

[Roseanna]

I have edited the post.  O'Brien became lady's maid to a Marchioness - Susan Flintcher.  Then lady's maid to ambassador's wife, (Flintshire and then her successor).  O'Brien was raised in rank since she went from being lady's maid to a countess to being lady's maid to a marchioness who was the wife of an ambassador.  When Susan Flintcher left India, O'Brien was then the lady's maid to the next wife of the ambassador.  

 

An ambassador is a representative of a foreign country, so how could Flintshire be an ambassador in India as Britain ruled it as a colony? Britain had a viceroy in India and wasn't Flintshire a step lower in order?

[kpw801]

An ambassador is a representative of a foreign country, so how could Flintshire be an ambassador in India as Britain ruled it as a colony? Britain had a viceroy in India and wasn't Flintshire a step lower in order?

I guess I should have said diplomat.

[Roseanna]

I guess I should have said diplomat.

 

A diplomat is a general name of a representative of a foreign country. An ambassador is a diplomat who is the boss of other diplomats of his country. Diplomats have no power as they are foreigners but they have an immunity against prosecution.

 

Instead, India was ruled by Great Britain as a colony. So there were British civil servants. I understand that Shrimpy wasn't the highest, the Viceroy, but maybe he was a member of Viceroy's Executive Council?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viceroy%27s_Executive_Council

[mightycrone]

I agree, I just started re-watching from the beginning, and her stilted way of speaking, and always cocking her head has worsened as the seasons have worn on.  Her lines are sing-songy at times, and she places emphasis on weird parts of sentences.  I was kind of startled that she really wasn't so bad at first -- I don't know what is behind that, if it was her own idea or she was somehow directed that way. 

 

At the risk of repeating myself, I cannot hear Cora talk without thinking of Truman Capote (and impersonators).

[mightycrone]

I'd rather see a Donk/puppy bonding scene than another damn wedding.  I think that it's a peril of shows that have a large female viewership.

[ShadowFacts]

I'd rather see a Donk/puppy bonding scene than another damn wedding.  I think that it's a peril of shows that have a large female viewership.

Yes!  I am so fed up with matrimony as the be all and end all, and in this show particularly, why must everyone be paired up Noah's Ark style?  Just leave well enough alone sometimes, e.g. Mrs. Hughes saddled with her very own curmudgeon?  No thanks. 

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, Carson's generosity was of the "too good to be true" variety ... see also "day late, dollar short" ... it was a business decision that he decided to expand into "friends with benefits" (marital relations) for his own "comfort" ... I though their going into business together was going to be rough, but now she's caught "til death do they part", personally I'm hoping that comes sooner rather than later and that Carson leaves everything carefully spelled out in a will leaving EVERYTHING to his wife (no distant nephew usurpers, thank you very much) 

[Ina123]

Although I wouldn't necessarily want Mary as a friend, I love the character. She has so many dimensions and is by far the most interesting of the entire family.

 

I think she and Henry have all kinds of chemistry. I like the match.

[Artymouse]

Although I wouldn't necessarily want Mary as a friend, I love the character. She has so many dimensions and is by far the most interesting of the entire family.

 

 

 

 

I agree that she has so many layers and so much complexity. It doesn't hurt that Michelle Dockery is such a good actress. I think the other character who is similarly constructed is Thomas. A lot of people think that he's all over the place as a character, and that is true, but human beings are complicated and contradictory. The similarities between the two characters are why, IMO, the scene where Mary visited a recuperating Thomas was such a good scene. They're very similar -- if class and life circumstances were traded, I could see each one having the same kinds of problems because of the personality parallels.

 

Granted, Thomas with loving and indulgent parents and a privileged upbringing might not be quite so nasty and scheming, while Mary with a working class family background probably wouldn't be so imperious and grand, but I could see the core of each one being much the same.