S10.E11: The Forever People

[william0102]

I do wonder just how much control Breen had in this one. I know his name is on the story, but he mentioned in chats before that he had ideas and they were shot down by Erica. So I wonder if how things played out with JJ were dictated to him and that he was told he couldn't bring up Reid's PTSD. I mean, wasn't it earlier in this very season that Reid mentioned his PTSD to Morgan?

 

Not only Messer shooting stuff down, but who knows how much had to be cut for broadcast length. Something the editors thought wasn't important could have been cut- like how they went from just watching the cult to JJ and Reid suddenly storming the place. There could have been snippets cut from the JJ and Reid talk scene, and I guarantee from that last scene. So I wouldn't blame Breen completely or AJ for what she said about seeing JJ's vulnerable side. None of the actors, unless they direct, get to see the cut before broadcast, and writers definitely aren't in the editing room.

[needschocolate]

I don't have a problem with JJ, don't love her, don't hate her.  I actually don't have strong feelings (good or bad) about any of the BAU members.  Although I think it can be nice to know something about a characters backstory or personal life, I don't want to see a lot of it.  I dislike episodes that center around one of the team, because those episodes usually end up being so contrived in order the give the character the story they want.  They didn't even bother trying to make the case related to JJ's trauma, other than it was close to the anniversary date.  JJ was never frozen, the victims weren't tortured and/or didn't loose unborn children. There were electrical burns in common, but JJ as already having trouble before then.

 

I almost laughed out loud when JJ was talking to Hotch while on her way to free the children - they show JJ in the car, then cut to the rest of the team standing around a desk at the station listening to JJ on speakerphone. It was like they were all planning on giving JJ their Chipotle orders so she could pick up lunch.  None of them went along to search and save children?  Was there a 2-for-1 sale on donuts at the coffee shop across the street?  There was no plausible reason for all of them to stay behind - no other leads to follow, no other mysteries to solve. 

 

OK, wait. WHAT was with that ending? Never mind that she was having a conversation with a chair (no worries there, right?), but please, someone tell me that was not a setup to have to deal with SomethingWorseThanPTSD!JJ for the rest of the season?!

 

Droogie, that is what many of us are wondering. Is this supposed to be the beginning of a long, downward spiral, or are we supposed to believe JJ snapped out of it when she said "no" and walked away? Only the future episodes will shed light on that.

 

As long as they are planning to focus on the main characters instead of the actual unsubs and victims and cases, the scenario I am hoping for is that JJ is going to turn into a serial killer.  This episode could serve as her trigger.  They hinted at it when Reed was detailing JJ's behavior and asked who else acts that way and JJ said "serial killers." Although I don't usually enjoy season-long storylines, I like the idea that they keep running into the same type of murder, but they can't solve the case, until someone realizes that these murders always happen when the BAU is already in that city on a different case. 

Edited January 17, 2015 by needschocolate

[TigerLynx]

If the current writers couldn't be bothered to watch previous seasons, that explains a lot.

 

JJ as a serial killer?

 

I like Hotch and Reid's relationship, and I bet Hotch didn't have any doubt whatsoever that Reid was right about the number of boats.

[Danielg342]

I have to say that I think "200" was worse than this one.

I know I'm alone on this one, but I at least thought “200” was watchable. There was enough “dumb action” to at least get me through the mistakes, and at least the story and its progression made sense, even if in the larger narrative it has elements that are severely out of place. “200” was about action, and on that front it delivered.

This one, on the other hand, set out to make objectives and failed to even come close to hitting any of them. We were supposed to have an “emotional” episode yet what we got was writing and acting choices that fell incredibly off that mark. “200” may have been based on a faulty premise, but at least the elements within the story made sense. There was nothing about “The Forever People” that made sense. It was supposed to be about JJ dealing with the effects of PTSD only for the PTSD not to actually matter- it was a lot of posturing to make the PTSD appear to matter but it no real effect on the outcome of the story. JJ was never made to pay for ignoring the effects of the condition and that is most jarring about this episode, and why I must rank it as the worst ever.

The scenario I am hoping for is that JJ is going to turn into a serial killer. This episode could serve as her trigger. They hinted at it when Reed was detailing JJ's behavior and asked who else acts that way and JJ said "serial killers." Although I don't usually enjoy season-long storylines, I like the idea that they keep running into the same type of murder, but they can't solve the case, until someone realizes that these murders always happen when the BAU is already in that city on a different case.

I like the idea, especially since you'd think of all the people who'd be able to “beat” the BAU it'd be someone within the BAU, but there are two reasons why I'm not sure it can happen:

1) Erica Messer seems to believe JJ is “the star” so I'm not sure she'd ever approve of a storyline where JJ would so obviously have to leave the series

2) I'm not convinced this current batch of writers would be capable of pulling off the subtlety and nuances needed for the storyline to work. Considering they can't even have regular UnSubs commit crimes without the regular police being stupid, I'm not sure they can believably have a BAU UnSub be able to pull off the same thing.

[normasm]

Yeah, JJ as an unsub is not gonna happen.

[vanarnd1]

After watching the episode and reading the comments, I think the writers have put themselves in a tough spot because now they either have to devote more time in future episodes to make JJ's struggles seem more realistic, which might not be well recieved, or if they try to put this on the backburner for a while it will greatly lessen the emotional impact this episode was supposed to have.

 

The issue I have is that when there are other character centric episodes they seem to find ways to include more of the other team, members, but this episode about JJ had a big imbalance in screentime and focus. I also think there were some inconsistencies in the story, the fact that JJ's issues were so far removed from "200", and that it seemed like her main trauma came from what happened overseeas, which was never hinted at in way when she came back in season 7 or 8. I think it is going to be hard from a storytelling perspective going forward to address JJ's situation in a way that fit smoothly into future episodes and it seems like this could be a potential anchor that weighs the show down more than anything else.

Edited January 18, 2015 by vanarnd1

[missmycat]

I believe this episode may have been the last straw for many people. I was just over at CM's FB page and for the first time I saw a significant backlash against this character instead of just a few negative comments here and there.

Another huge difference the comment critical of AJ/JJ had received quite a few likes where as the comments supportive of her were receiving hardly any at all. Now I will admit I only went thru about a third of them.

 

Anyways I found this comment quite telling and it just may be the main reason why we are now starting to see a bit of a backlash against her over there.

 

"I was the only one in my family that use to just feel meh about JJ instead of outright hating her. NOW  THAT THEY'VE DECIDED THAT EVER OTHER EPISODE needs to be a JJ episode. I'm in the I hate her boat. For the love of good television enough with her crap please.

[leisawoo]

I wish they would move the report button location here on ptv. I have accidentally tapped it so many times and panicked at almost reporting ppl when that was never my intent, lol. Oh yeah, I hated this episode. I will be reading your posts, as another poster mentioned, to see which episodes are worth watching. I miss the "Criminal Minds" I fell in love with.

[Danielg342]

After watching the episode and reading the comments, I think the writers have put themselves in a tough spot because now they either have to devote more time in future episodes to make JJ's struggles seem more realistic, which might not be well recieved, or if they try to put this on the backburner for a while it will greatly lessen the emotional impact this episode was supposed to have.

The issue I have is that when there are other character centric episodes they seem to find ways to include more of the other team, members, but this episode about JJ had a big imbalance in screentime and focus. I also think there were some inconsistencies in the story, the fact that JJ's issues were so far removed from "200", and that it seemed like her main trauma came from what happened overseeas, which was never hinted at in way when she came back in season 7 or 8. I think it is going to be hard from a storytelling perspective going forward to address JJ's situation in a way that fit smoothly into future episodes and it seems like this could be a potential anchor that weighs the show down more than anything else.

There is one way they can do JJ's situation realistically without it weighing down the series- they could limit her to only one scene per episode (after the credits) where she sees a psychiatrist or gets support from her husband (mysteriously absent this season) and nothing else. That way, at least she can appear while allowing others to get their well-deserved screentime.

[zannej]

I know it will never happen, but it would be interesting if JJ totally flipped her lid and killed Will and then herself. I was going to add Henry to the mix, but I think people would be offended by that.

 

As for the "dumb action scenes", I find most of the action scenes to be incredibly boring and that is when I start looking at my laptop. I remember "Demons" had an incredibly long chase scene that bored the hell out of me. I kept checking the time and wondering when the hell it was going to end.

 

Keep in mind that I like action scenes that are done right, but sometimes action scenes are so lacking in suspense that I start to yawn.

[Danielg342]

As for the "dumb action scenes", I find most of the action scenes to be incredibly boring and that is when I start looking at my laptop. I remember "Demons" had an incredibly long chase scene that bored the hell out of me. I kept checking the time and wondering when the hell it was going to end.

Keep in mind that I like action scenes that are done right, but sometimes action scenes are so lacking in suspense that I start to yawn.

Understandable. It's subjective, so I'm guessing we'll just agree to disagree on "200". I personally think CM can actually do "action" pretty well ("Mayhem"), but when it happens too much it draws away from the original, cerebral premise.

I know it will never happen, but it would be interesting if JJ totally flipped her lid and killed Will and then herself. I was going to add Henry to the mix, but I think people would be offended by that.

I'd add Henry to the mix- it'd be realistic. Plus "The Boogeyman" did have kids getting killed (and had a picture of a dead boy shown) so it's not without precedent on the show, though I think for it to work, you'd have to do any violence off-screen.

[needschocolate]

Okay, I am tweaking my original hope for a JJ story -

 

JJ becomes a serial killer, but is so good at it and has insider info, that even Garcia's magic computer can't trace these murders to her.  It is not until she kills her husband and herself that they figure it out (Henry is spared and goes live with his grandparents). 

 

Then they flash forward 3 years, so I don't have to sit through a bunch of episodes about the team dealing with not being able to spot a serial killer right in front of their noses. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I believe this episode may have been the last straw for many people.

 

I think it has been, too. And as another poster said, the writers have backed themselves into a corner regarding what happens next. Had they not spent so much time establishing that JJ was not only not bothered by her experiences in Afghanistan but was able to crack jokes about them, this new thing of her actually being utterly traumatized by them would be easier to swallow. For anyone who was already borderline fed up with her, or beyond, this probably seems like either the worst way in the world to get people to feel empathy for her or the biggest middle finger ever. IMO, they cannot have it both ways. If they wanted to do this, there should have been some kind of clue that she was still dealing with the after-effects of what she went through. If she was in denial, fine, but even then they could have had her let on that she wasn't entirely okay. Maybe a moment in the premiere where she goes to get something on the plane, separating herself from the others so she can let the smile drop? God knows she's on-screen enough that there should have been some hint that this still haunted her, and instead they had her be perfectly okay and functional. It should be one thing or the other, not both.

[thewhiteowl]

I rather enjoyed it. JJ got a lot of focus because JJ-centric and I thought AJ did well. I believed her anguish and I have to give props to any actor who can act a serious scene with a guy who looks like he's wearing a dead squirrel on his head.

[JMO]

 

I have to give props to any actor who can act a serious scene with a guy who looks like he's wearing a dead squirrel on his head.

 

             You made me laugh out loud!

[SSAHotchner]

I know it will never happen, but it would be interesting if JJ totally flipped her lid and killed Will and then herself. I was going to add Henry to the mix, but I think people would be offended by that.

 

As for the "dumb action scenes", I find most of the action scenes to be incredibly boring and that is when I start looking at my laptop. I remember "Demons" had an incredibly long chase scene that bored the hell out of me. I kept checking the time and wondering when the hell it was going to end.

 

Keep in mind that I like action scenes that are done right, but sometimes action scenes are so lacking in suspense that I start to yawn.

Yes. And then when they had that scene where Rossi and, was it Blake? (See, I can't even remember details of episodes in the later seasons.) were coming up to a roadblock of all the cops and they cut to a commercial and when they came back Rossi and partner had managed to get through the roadblock, but we didn't see how it happened. That would have been something interesting to see, but the lazy writers put that in without thinking about how to resolve it or perhaps the director just didn't want to film it. But it was a pretty cheesy thing to do to the audience.

[SSAHotchner]

 

I think it has been, too. And as another poster said, the writers have backed themselves into a corner regarding what happens next. Had they not spent so much time establishing that JJ was not only not bothered by her experiences in Afghanistan but was able to crack jokes about them, this new thing of her actually being utterly traumatized by them would be easier to swallow. For anyone who was already borderline fed up with her, or beyond, this probably seems like either the worst way in the world to get people to feel empathy for her or the biggest middle finger ever. IMO, they cannot have it both ways. If they wanted to do this, there should have been some kind of clue that she was still dealing with the after-effects of what she went through. If she was in denial, fine, but even then they could have had her let on that she wasn't entirely okay. Maybe a moment in the premiere where she goes to get something on the plane, separating herself from the others so she can let the smile drop? God knows she's on-screen enough that there should have been some hint that this still haunted her, and instead they had her be perfectly okay and functional. It should be one thing or the other, not both.

To me, this is yet another example of how the writers think we don't notice any of their inconsistencies. They wrote the abomination 200 and people complained about how JJ wasn't affected at all by the torture. Then they wait a whole year and try to fix what they already broke by doing this ridiculous episode. We're not supposed to think about how it doesn't make sense. We're just supposed to blindly accept and enjoy whatever they come up with.

[Danielg342]

If you really think about it, "turning into a serial killer" would be a logical conclusion to a BAU member's career. It seems improbable that after ten years of seeing literally the worst humanity can throw at them that no one has lost their minds so much that they didn't start thinking that "humanity itself needed to be exterminated" or something. Am I supposed to believe that the BAU guys are so superhuman that they can just brush off all of these brutal crimes?

The sad part is, no matter how logical it might be- and no matter how, at this stage, it's the only logical conclusion for JJ- I doubt they'll ever go to that well. There's the obvious worry about fan backlash, plus these writers are so oblivious to the "larger narrative" (and thus the larger implications of their actions) that they think they can put characters through anything and they can come out unscathed. Problem is, there's only so much I can believe.

To me, this is yet another example of how the writers think we don't notice any of their inconsistencies. They wrote the abomination 200 and people complained about how JJ wasn't affected at all by the torture. Then they wait a whole year and try to fix what they already broke by doing this ridiculous episode. We're not supposed to think about how it doesn't make sense. We're just supposed to blindly accept and enjoy whatever they come up with.

^ This. A thousand times. I'm pretty understanding that, perhaps, there's a reason why they didn't deal with Season 6 or Hotch's stab wounds until Season 9, or that they "forgot" about JJ's PTSD until Season 10, but it only goes so far. They had known all season they were going to go this route with JJ and it's terrible that they didn't plan this better- or that we got this horrible display to begin with.

[ForeverAlone]

I have seen more than one Reid fan (yes, people who actually claim to be Reid fans and not Reid haters) clamoring for him to either end up as a serial killer or devolve into schizophrenia. For some god awful reason, they think this would be "cool" or something, without thinking of the fact that it would completely destroy his character. At least the jokes about JJ turning into a serial killer (though if she was going to do anything, I think she would probably be a serial vigilante killer, like Elle if she had been able to knock a few more criminals off) are coming from her detractors and not people who claim to love her. But some Reid fans make me shake my head at them. 

[MCatry]

missmycat" post

"I believe this episode may have been the last straw for many people. I was just over at CM's FB page and for the first time I saw a significant backlash against this character instead of just a few negative comments here and there."

(I wish I could quote as anyone else here...)

Well, I went there to check what was going on:

Total likes when the episode was just starting: 41.127 likes

total likes for the day after, under the title "last night was a powerful episode for JJ": 24.312 likes.

To put things on perspective, a post posted the very same day with the title "who thinks Shemar Moore should be the national face of hatday? has 39.384 likes.

Anyway, here are my findings regarding the reactions to The forever people in the official criminal minds facebook page (valid for just now and maybe a few minutes after, but trendy, since we are four days away from the initial date of the post)

Total main comments: 661

Most voted post: "I love Reid (and three red hearts)" with 145 votes.

Then,...

108 likes: "I would have been on board w/this episode if JJ had shown signs of this inner turmoil throughout the season. It was suddenly sprung upon us what's she's dealing with. Loved Reid's helping hand, otherwise felt the storyline came out of nowhere."

68 likes: "Im not feeling this seasin at all. It was always a must watch for me but something is wrong this season. Im not feeling it."

61 likes: "The good thing about last night's show was that JLH had a very small role."

49 likes: "AJ Cook owned that episode, the flashbacks and the emotion put into it, definitely got a "chill"

46 likes: " Felt it was one of the worst eps in awhile."

42 likes: "I am fed up of JJ being the then everywhere, while everybody else play paws into her stories. In every single episode they leave out at least three of the other characters, and as a result we haven't seen much of Morgan, Hotch and Reid at all, except when the play some dumb part by her side."

Then a bunch of assorted comments ranging from 11 to 23 likes, and a large number of posts with ten or less likes, with every kind of opinions.

(Edited to correct the auto-correct)

Edited January 19, 2015 by MCatry

[missmycat]

missmycat" post

"I believe this episode may have been the last straw for many people. I was just over at CM's FB page and for the first time I saw a significant backlash against this character instead of just a few negative comments here and there."

(I wish I could quote as anyone else here...)

Well, I went there to check what was going on:

Total likes when the episode was just starting: 41.127 likes

total likes for the day after, under the title "last night was a powerful episode for JJ": 24.312 likes.

To put things on perspective, a post posted the very same day with the title "who thinks Shemar Moore should be the national face of hatday? has 39.384 likes.

Anyway, here are my findings regarding the reactions to The forever people in the official criminal minds facebook page (valid for just now and maybe a few minutes after, but trendy, since we are four days away from the initial date of the post)

Total main comments: 661

Most voted post: "I love Reid (and three red hearts)" with 145 votes.

Then,...

108 likes: "I would have been on board w/this episode if JJ had shown signs of this inner turmoil throughout the season. It was suddenly sprung upon us what's she's dealing with. Loved Reid's helping hand, otherwise felt the storyline came out of nowhere."

68 likes: "Im not feeling this seasin at all. It was always a must watch for me but something is wrong this season. Im not feeling it."

61 likes: "The good thing about last night's show was that JLH had a very small role."

49 likes: "AJ Cook owned that episode, the flashbacks and the emotion put into it, definitely got a "chill"

46 likes: " Felt it was one of the worst eps in awhile."

42 likes: "I am fed up of JJ being the then everywhere, while everybody else play paws into her stories. In every single episode they leave out at least three of the other characters, and as a result we haven't seen much of Morgan, Hotch and Reid at all, except when the play some dumb part by her side."

Then a bunch of assorted comments ranging from 11 to 23 likes, and a large number of posts with ten or less likes, with every kind of opinions.

(Edited to correct the auto-correct)

OMG Thank you so much for those statistics. Indeed it shows that there is finally starting to be a backlash over there regarding this character. Now if we could only see some kind of backlash on twitter. 

[zannej]

Daniel, I think CM used to do action scenes well. There was a sense of urgency and suspense.. Then around season 6 it sort of disappeared (although that is not always the case). I noticed it first in the episode with Tim Curry when they were supposed to be worried about Spicer. I wasn't getting the sense of urgency or concern. They just seemed to be approaching at a leisurely pace.

 

And other times I knew what the outcome was going to be, so I didn't really care. I think the predictability makes it harder to find the action scenes exciting. I do think that the action in Mayhem and Lo Fi was good though. But after season 5, something changed. 

JJ's fight scene in "Run" was so incredibly bad. I say this as someone who studied martial arts and learned to do some of those moves. She just did NOT sell the scenes well. It just looked so fake that it was distracting. Plus I couldn't buy for a second that Will would have led them there... Ugh... I'll stop there...

 

I guess maybe I've grown bored of explosions since we see them all the time on TV and in movies now. 

 

As for JJ and her PTSD coming out of nowhere, I had a thought: If they had established some sort of stressor to explain the sudden onset (other than being close to the anniversary). Like, if JJ had just found out from her doctor that she couldn't have anymore children because of what happened to her and now her hopes of having another child were completely gone-- it would have added to her pain from the miscarriage. I could see THAT having upset her enough to go all ballistic during the sparring session. 

[Droogie]

missmycat" post

"I believe this episode may have been the last straw for many people. I was just over at CM's FB page and for the first time I saw a significant backlash against this character instead of just a few negative comments here and there."

(I wish I could quote as anyone else here...)

Well, I went there to check what was going on:

Total likes when the episode was just starting: 41.127 likes

total likes for the day after, under the title "last night was a powerful episode for JJ": 24.312 likes.

To put things on perspective, a post posted the very same day with the title "who thinks Shemar Moore should be the national face of hatday? has 39.384 likes.

Anyway, here are my findings regarding the reactions to The forever people in the official criminal minds facebook page (valid for just now and maybe a few minutes after, but trendy, since we are four days away from the initial date of the post)

Total main comments: 661

Most voted post: "I love Reid (and three red hearts)" with 145 votes.

Then,...

108 likes: "I would have been on board w/this episode if JJ had shown signs of this inner turmoil throughout the season. It was suddenly sprung upon us what's she's dealing with. Loved Reid's helping hand, otherwise felt the storyline came out of nowhere."

68 likes: "Im not feeling this seasin at all. It was always a must watch for me but something is wrong this season. Im not feeling it."

61 likes: "The good thing about last night's show was that JLH had a very small role."

49 likes: "AJ Cook owned that episode, the flashbacks and the emotion put into it, definitely got a "chill"

46 likes: " Felt it was one of the worst eps in awhile."

42 likes: "I am fed up of JJ being the then everywhere, while everybody else play paws into her stories. In every single episode they leave out at least three of the other characters, and as a result we haven't seen much of Morgan, Hotch and Reid at all, except when the play some dumb part by her side."

Then a bunch of assorted comments ranging from 11 to 23 likes, and a large number of posts with ten or less likes, with every kind of opinions.

(Edited to correct the auto-correct)

I always appreciate your stats!

[normasm]

If you really think about it, "turning into a serial killer" would be a logical conclusion to a BAU member's career. It seems improbable that after ten years of seeing literally the worst humanity can throw at them that no one has lost their minds so much that they didn't start thinking that "humanity itself needed to be exterminated" or something. Am I supposed to believe that the BAU guys are so superhuman that they can just brush off all of these brutal crimes?

 

 

Whut? I totally disagree. In the world where I live, just because you see murder, mayhem, and depravity over a period of years, you are not going to "succumb" to that behavior yourself, unless you are a particular kind of mentally ill, or become that way. It is very, very, rare for people to do these things; granted, not rare enough for the victims and their families, but still - rare. 

 

But by your logic, a preponderance of cancer doctors would start euthanizing their terminal patients because they couldn't bear to see their suffering. Lawyers and judges would murder people who escaped justice; Priests and pastors, psychiatrists and psychologists, because their job stressed their minds so, would put patients/confessors in droves out of their misery.

 

Granted, CM has showcased such people, angels of "mercy," injustice collectors, depressives who have broken. A profiler could break and become a killer; Elle did. But she didn't become a serial killer, logically speaking (we would know, because she would have shown up on their radar), she left. There was no cooling off and murdering again for her, no compulsion to murder. The more likely exemplar is Gideon, who broke, and very likely was suicidal, if he didn't really kill himself. The soul-wasting result of burnout of a profiler would more likely be suicide than murder, much less, serial murder.

 

The entertainment factor of JJ becoming a serial killer, or Reid, is zero for me. JJ is traumatized by losing her baby so she starts killing, what, Afghani men who remind her of whatshisname? Reid has seen so much he just wants to see more and those pesky ol' serial killers won't keep up with demand!

 

OK, I'll stop now, that went on waaaaay too long and got too convoluted!

[Danielg342]

I didn't say it was the *only* logical conclusion, just that it's one logical conclusion. I would agree that not all of them would descend into serial-killer-ness, but I would totally buy it if it did happen.

[normasm]

I don't Daniel, simply because the overwhelming compulsion to kill in a serial fashion is not "catching," like a virus on prolonged exposure.

 

It is plausible that a profiler can enter a fugue state in which everything that happened to her months ago when she was shot in her own home (and probably some rape memories from the past) boils to the surface and she explodes into uncontrollable rage and kills someone. It's plausible that a profiler could lose control of his fear and guilt and beat a man to death who killed his wife, and would have killed his son. But in neither case can I find plausible that that would lead to an impulse to kill others after that fact.

 

So if JJ shows some impulse at self-harm after this episode, I would find it plausible, but extremely unwelcome. Fuggeddaboudit already, writers!

Edited January 19, 2015 by normasm

[missmycat]

So whatever happen to giving Reid a break. Isn't that one of the reason they decided not to give him PTSD like they original planned.EM reassured us that he'd be alright, that dealing with JJ's PTSD wouldn't trigger his own. What a bunch of bull crap. The cluelessness of EM is sometimes mindboggling.

 

How is Reid going to be alright if his has to bear the burden of keeping JJ's PTSD a secret. And what happens if and when the sh#t hits the fan.And Hotch finds out that Reid knew that JJ was basically a walking time bomb.Would Hotch have no choice but to reprehend Reid for his silence.If Hotch had been shown in the past to be some kind of orge that wasn't very understanding then I could maybe see it,but that hasn't been the case.No this burden should have been given to Hotch, he is after all JJ's boss, not Reid. And it was very selfish of this Mary Sue to do that to him.

[Danielg342]

I probably would agree that less JJ is more, actually, considering she's basically dominated this season. If she's in the background until April, I'll be satisfied...though I doubt that will happen.

[needschocolate]

I was joking when I first suggested JJ might turn into a serial killer - actually, I said I hope she becomes one, not that I thought the producers were going in that direction.

 

I don't think the show would go there, and, if they did, it wouldn't be with JJ - it would probably be with some new guy they hired instead of one of the current team.  

 

I do think it would be a cool idea to have one of the team turn into a serial killer, if the writers were good enough to make it suspenseful and believable.  Imagine trying to catch a killer who has such a deep understanding of how to catch serial killers (the first thing to do would be to mess with Garcia's magic computer so your name/picture/phone records/credit card info wouldn't pop up in any search.

 

Of course, the team member turned serial killer wouldn't "catch" it from one of the unsubs.  However, the standard course of events for the unsubs is "have a traumatic experience in the past, then have something happen that triggers them turning into a serial killer."  Every member of the BAU has had some sort of traumatic experience (and none worse than JJ, according to her), so they could have something happen (JJ finds out she is infertile, her toaster has a short in it and she gets an electrical burn, etc...) that triggers serial killer-itis.  

[zannej]

LOL.. Her toaster..... LOL!

[Danielg342]

LOL.. Her toaster..... LOL!

Well, knock over my morning coffee and there will be hell to pay!

[webruce]

JJs anger in the sparring with her partner over powered him. But he told she could get beat if she let her anger take over. Something kicked off her dreams. Jennifer finally getting hit with her PTSD seemed quite sudden. On her 1st anniversary it hit her hard. Having a conversation with Tivon Askari about what he did to her and his history.
I did like how Spenser Reid talked to JJ about her problems. He felt bad and tried to help. her calling him Spence was nice to hear. She did stop him from telling her what he thought. She didn't really snark him or act like he was dumb or he was saying stuff no one cared about like she acts sometimes. Her problem didn't fit totally in one category. He was really concerned. Hotch saw it too. He didn't know what was going on, but he saw Spenser was worried. I do like his interactions with Hotch. Kate and Spenser could be a good team. He had a special connection with Alex Blake.

COTW I thought they had shown the perpetrator way to soon. But we find that Cult leader Colton Grant was to slick to be the killer. Even though I wasn't sure for awhile. But he truly was taken aback by the dead body(Alex Lewis/Sarah Rhodes), pictures. So after his interrogation by the BAU I switched to believing maybe the Lawyer Beth Acosta was behind it. I was surprised that JJ went in and got the Un-sub alone. Not even local PD back up. I did like that Detective Pete Chalmers was in on the case. And not in the background like they used to do to local FBI/PD. Not really sure if after they find the kids, and Reid stays with them that alone JJ knew if the spark would blow things up or not. But she didn't give John Kanak much of a chance to surrender. No, "Drop it or I will shoot". Maybe the PTSD made her shoot. His motive was his family froze to death. I liked that the father With the cast, Carl Mason, sat at the bus stop for hours waiting. Then he was in the Cult to find his son Bobbie Rhodes.I was surprised the girl, Greta Jacobson, spoke so easily about Bobbie. Maybe she had not been in the cult for very long and hadn't yet been brainwashed. Wish we had seen some signs of JJs problems before this. And I hope it doesn't all go away at once. But on NCIS:LA, Kensi had the same one day problems and back to pretty much normal since. But she admitted to Deeks that it had bothered her before. JJ should say that too.

@JustmyOpinion I agree with you on almost everything. I do at times think that JJ and Morgan have gotten the bulk of the meaty scenes with all the action. And some here(Seems like a lot), have it in for them and if they get extra screen time they are upset. But as with my typing it is a persons opinion. That is why usually these Forums are so good, everyone puts in their 2 cents. Now if I remarked about Morgan and JJ being hated for to much screen time/acting, in some of my other forums(I post in 3 different CM ones regularly), they would wonder where/how I figured the 2 were so hated. So sometimes my "One size fits all "comments don't fit in some rooms

Edited January 23, 2015 by webruce

[Aethera]

I've never felt as passionately about this show as others, which I think has insulated me a bit with the JJ overload - I'm always doing something else while I watch, and I've always liked all of the characters without feeling hate or love for any of them (well except Garcia, who is probably my favorite, because she reminds me of my sister). But when I watched this episode, I was extremely frustrated, like many above, by the out-of-nowhereness of it, the lack of Hotch reaction, and this feeling of dread in my stomach that we're going to have to keep hearing about it for the rest of the season.

 

I enjoyed the Gideon years, and I thought Rossi was a good addition. I didn't like Elle much, but loved Emily. I hated when they dumped JJ and Emily, and was happy they came back.  The casting in the last few seasons though has been frustrating.  I miss Emily now. I didn't enjoy Blake, and felt she was poorly integrated, and now I'm not enjoying Kate, and feel like her inclusion is quite awkward.  I can't help but think this show perhaps needs to ride off into the sunset, but I'll keep watching it while something else is on unless it goes further off the rails.

[secnarf]

Limelight! The episode where Reid goes over someone's torture technique planning and says the unsub is most excited at the idea of electric shock and the current team took that case so I'm pretty sure almost everyone but Kate should have known what electric shock looked like. At least Kate said 'How did you catch that?' instead of someone else on the team. They really all should have caught it though, I guess their memory isn't as good as JJ's (sarcasm).

Sorry to quote something so old, I watched this episode a few days ago and it reminded me of your comment. 

Edit: It just occurred to me that electrical shock might not cause electrical burns and I can't remember if the victims actually had burns in limelight so I could be wrong. Sorry!

Also, having seen it in a case previously is rather different from having it done to you and seeing the burn marks every day.

Of course, Reid with his eidetic memory still should have caught on, but other than that, I think it makes sense for JJ to have realized before the others, even if they had all seen it before.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Edit: It just occurred to me that electrical shock might not cause electrical burns and I can't remember if the victims actually had burns in limelight so I could be wrong. Sorry!

 

As per Wikipedia:

 

An electrical injury has many consequences to a body as the electrical currents can travel through the nervous system and burn out tissue in patches along the way. This can leave bizarre symptoms anywhere on the body and may lead to complex regional pain syndrome. Wiring or other metalwork which is at a hazardous voltage which can constitute a risk of electric shock is called "live", as in "live wire".

 

Granted, Wiki isn't always super-reliable, but there is mention of electric shock being used as torture, mentioning not only burns but that it can cause the recipient to lose control of their bowels and such. So you can take that for what its worth.

[ForeverAlone]

It is certainly possible, though in the case of electrical burns, we know they encountered that in the past during Limelight, at least, if not more cases that happened offscreen. I just hate it when the writers make the team look stupid or dumbfounded about something that is supposed to be obvious to JJ. To me, it's the writers building up JJ and her supposed super profiler powers, while subtly putting down the other team members for not picking up on something they SHOULD have picked up on from their past experiences with cases. To me, that entire episode was about making JJ look superior to all her teammates even when she is supposed to be in the grips of a full blown PTSD meltdown. But I am super sensitive to JJ the past two years and just can't stand how she is written most of the time. And in my opinion, The Forever People was the worst example for season 10. 

[Danielg342]

It is certainly possible, though in the case of electrical burns, we know they encountered that in the past during Limelight, at least, if not more cases that happened offscreen. I just hate it when the writers make the team look stupid or dumbfounded about something that is supposed to be obvious to JJ. To me, it's the writers building up JJ and her supposed super profiler powers, while subtly putting down the other team members for not picking up on something they SHOULD have picked up on from their past experiences with cases. To me, that entire episode was about making JJ look superior to all her teammates even when she is supposed to be in the grips of a full blown PTSD meltdown. But I am super sensitive to JJ the past two years and just can't stand how she is written most of the time. And in my opinion, The Forever People was the worst example for season 10. 

 

To be fair, memory isn't always perfect and I think that sequence was more about showing that JJ was recalling her own abuse, and I'm more upset the team dropped the ball on that front. In years past, Hotch was likely the one to notice and he'd have pulled over JJ in an instant to see if things were okay (like he did with Reid in "Elephant's Memory"), but here, despite all the signs that something was amiss, Hotch decided to do nothing. In the normal world, we'd call that an egregious act of negligence for Hotch to ignore all the stuff JJ was going through, but then again, in the normal world, Hotch wouldn't make that mistake in the first place.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

To be fair, memory isn't always perfect and I think that sequence was more about showing that JJ was recalling her own abuse, and I'm more upset the team dropped the ball on that front. In years past, Hotch was likely the one to notice and he'd have pulled over JJ in an instant to see if things were okay (like he did with Reid in "Elephant's Memory"), but here, despite all the signs that something was amiss, Hotch decided to do nothing. In the normal world, we'd call that an egregious act of negligence for Hotch to ignore all the stuff JJ was going through, but then again, in the normal world, Hotch wouldn't make that mistake in the first place.

 

Not to start up an old argument, but what signs? Let's ignore that it took an entire year for them to revisit JJ's Afghanistan experiences, and that in the season premiere she was yukking it up with Morgan and Kate about having been tortured. I don't think she had her (supposed) breakdown with Hotch anywhere in the vicinity, and I'm not willing to subject myself to the episode again to double-check. I will grant that Aaron noticed that Reid was upset and distracted, and that's obnoxious enough when the ep portrayed Spencer as barely able to comprehend adult emotions, because, y'know, he's never ever ever gone through personal trauma. But since JJ had barely showed any sign of being troubled by her ordeal until she was suddenly going way off the reservation, I'm willing to cut Hotch some slack. He can only deal with what he can actually see, and I don't think he ever actually saw anything.

[ForeverAlone]

And if the writers had made some attempt to show that certain things from cases hit home with JJ, I would have been more likely to give this whole scene a pass. But for a year after 200, there were numerous cases that evoked what JJ experienced that simply did not generate any response from her at all. Hell, earlier in the season JJ was joking about being tortured, so for her to all of a sudden freak out now just felt contrived. But that is just par for the course for an episode where I felt every word of that episode was contrived.

[Danielg342]

 

Not to start up an old argument, but what signs? Let's ignore that it took an entire year for them to revisit JJ's Afghanistan experiences, and that in the season premiere she was yukking it up with Morgan and Kate about having been tortured. I don't think she had her (supposed) breakdown with Hotch anywhere in the vicinity, and I'm not willing to subject myself to the episode again to double-check. I will grant that Aaron noticed that Reid was upset and distracted, and that's obnoxious enough when the ep portrayed Spencer as barely able to comprehend adult emotions, because, y'know, he's never ever ever gone through personal trauma. But since JJ had barely showed any sign of being troubled by her ordeal until she was suddenly going way off the reservation, I'm willing to cut Hotch some slack. He can only deal with what he can actually see, and I don't think he ever actually saw anything.

 

I don't remember the scene exactly, but I think Hotch was in the room when JJ pointed out the scarring was due to electrical torture. That should have rang a few bells right there since the team- at that point- didn't see anything significant about the scarring, and certainly from the context of the episode, we were supposed to think that JJ was making that connection solely because she remembered that scarring from her abuse. Given that, even if Hotch wasn't present when JJ made that observation, he should have been astute enough to know that JJ is only making that connection because of her trauma and nothing else.

 

Don't get me wrong- I'm not actually ripping Hotch for this. I'm ripping the writing for basically making Hotch- and the rest of the team- uncharacteristically oblivious, a dubious writing choice when the team's concern for JJ could have provided the episode some natural conflict (what the episode truly lacked).

[katha]

It always comes down to totally inconsistent writing. Agree that JJ showed zero signs of being affected by trauma beforehand so how could Hotch or anyone else pick up on it (since the writers originally thought she was totally fine, then changed their minds)? Then in the episode itself everyone needed to be unobservant for the contrived plot to work.

 

I actually think this sort of thing is the greatest disservice they do to Hotch as a character, being collateral damage in others' storylines. One of the team members does something randomly stupid and over the top, but Hotch conveniently doesn't interfere because he's either uncharacteristically oblivious or he's just not around to witness it. When they write specifically for Hotch more often than not it's at least decent, sometimes even really good. Which I guess is as much as you can expect from TPTB in their current state... The crappy writing with him usually comes in when the writers need to accomodate some nonsense plot for another character.

[Guesswht]

In this episode AJ's acting was too amazing for words. It would've been nice to see the whole team being worried about JJ, i hate it when JJ says "i'm fine" and everyone believes her. :/ Kate questioning Reid was disgusting, the scene ruined the episode for me.. a little bit. If i was Hotch i would have fired her and tell her to jump off my plane.

Despite the disgusting jet scene, it was the best episode in s10. While watching it you just want to hug JJ, you could feel her pain all the time. AJ was heartbreaking. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Guesswht

[Cobalt Stargazer]

In this episode AJ's acting was too amazing for words. It would've been nice to see the whole team being worried about JJ, i hate it when JJ says "i'm fine" and everyone believes her. :/ Kate questioning Reid was disgusting, the scene ruined the episode for me.. a little bit. If i was Hotch i would have fired her and tell her to jump off my plane.

 

Mmm.

 

Considering that JJ, and not Kate, was the one telling Reid "Stop being you!" I'm not real inclined to say that Kate was the one being disgusting. But mileage will vary.

[Guesswht]

Mmm.

 

Considering that JJ, and not Kate, was the one telling Reid "Stop being you!" I'm not real inclined to say that Kate was the one being disgusting. But mileage will vary.

All JJ wanted to do is make everyone believe that she is fine but Reid knew she wasn't fine so JJ told him to stop being so smart.. she meant it in a nice way. She was broken, she was in pain... What was Kate's reason for being an arrogant, unfunny b? - she was bored, this is the only episode in s10 thats not revolving around her.

Can you explain why you would want to see it? I'd be kind of annoyed if everyone was talking about how worried they were about JJ. You can't profile with a clear mind and they have a job to do. Also if JJ says 'I'm fine' I think that's a sign she doesn't want anyone worried with her. 

I don't think Kate questioning Reid was disgusting but I was a little it disappointed when Morgan joined in.

I didn't want to hug JJ, or really any characters when they're going through tough times. It might be because I'm not touchy feely but the characters are adults and not crying children that need to be hugged better. I kind of hate it when people call the characters their 'babies'. 

 

I love JJ, you don't love her. We see things differently.

[Old Dog]

I didn't want to hug JJ, or really any characters when they're going through tough times. It might be because I'm not touchy feely but the characters are adults and not crying children that need to be hugged better. I kind of hate it when people call the characters their 'babies'. 

 

I agree. I hate it also when people call characters their "babies". I apologise for dredging up things argued out in the past but this whole episode feels like a sop to all the somewhat immature adulation of JJ on FB and Twitter and those who kept pushing about PTSD issues. The issues were left far too long in the first place, it was badly written and over the top in its attempt to pacify the teens and as such it was one of the worst episodes of the season and not one to watch again. The whole atrocious 200 storyline and its aftermath needs to be well and truly forgotten.

[Droogie]

Couldn't agree more, Olddog. That episode seemed clearly written to placate the More!JJ crowd, or else Erica Messer, who wants her little star to shine brighter than everyone else. I'm sure I've said multiple times in this thread what I hate about this one.

I did hate that Morgan joined in on the teasing of Reid on the plane. He's known Reid for at least ten years by that point -- he absolutely knows how smart he is. Kate gets a pass; she may not have actually seen Reid's genius in action prior to that. And the fist bump from Hotch was one of the season's top five scenes for me.

"Stop being you" will never be ok with me.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

All JJ wanted to do is make everyone believe that she is fine but Reid knew she wasn't fine so JJ told him to stop being so smart.. she meant it in a nice way. She was broken, she was in pain...

 

For the sake of argument, let's say she didn't mean it as nastily as it came off to me. If she didn't mean it in an ugly way, why didn't she apologize later? That's what bothers me. To my immediate recollection, JJ has never apologized to Reid for anything. Ever, except for that one time in Proof, and even then she came off as either pissy or sulky or both, as if she was really saying, Fine, if it will make you stop whining I'll say I'm sorry. Much like that other short, annoying blonde, Buffy Summers, JJ has the capacity to be the worst kind of asshole, which is really obnoxious since she's supposed to be the warm, compassionate one with all this empathy. Yes, friends do say nasty, ugly, horrible things to one another sometimes, but they also generally sincerely apologize for any hurt that's been incurred. Again, mileage will vary.

[Droogie]

For the sake of argument, let's say she didn't mean it as nastily as it came off to me. If she didn't mean it in an ugly way, why didn't she apologize later? That's what bothers me. To my immediate recollection, JJ has never apologized to Reid for anything. Ever, except for that one time in Proof, and even then she came off as either pissy or sulky or both, as if she was really saying, Fine, if it will make you stop whining I'll say I'm sorry. Much like that other short, annoying blonde, Buffy Summers, JJ has the capacity to be the worst kind of asshole, which is really obnoxious since she's supposed to be the warm, compassionate one with all this empathy. Yes, friends do say nasty, ugly, horrible things to one another sometimes, but they also generally sincerely apologize for any hurt that's been incurred. Again, mileage will vary.

This.

Contrast what JJ said to Reid with what Emily said to him, a few years prior, when he was reaching out to her: "Thanks for being you." Emily was also going through her own personal hell but acknowledged Reid's kindness with no thought of trying to hurt him for it.

[secnarf]

All JJ wanted to do is make everyone believe that she is fine but Reid knew she wasn't fine so JJ told him to stop being so smart.. she meant it in a nice way.

 

I disagree that JJ meant it in a nice way, but I do agree that she was hurting and wanted everyone to believe she was fine and that was her way of telling Reid to back off. When people lash out like that, it's rarely coming from a "nice" place.

 

 

For the sake of argument, let's say she didn't mean it as nastily as it came off to me. If she didn't mean it in an ugly way, why didn't she apologize later? That's what bothers me. To my immediate recollection, JJ has never apologized to Reid for anything. Ever, except for that one time in Proof, and even then she came off as either pissy or sulky or both, as if she was really saying, Fine, if it will make you stop whining I'll say I'm sorry. Much like that other short, annoying blonde, Buffy Summers, JJ has the capacity to be the worst kind of asshole, which is really obnoxious since she's supposed to be the warm, compassionate one with all this empathy. Yes, friends do say nasty, ugly, horrible things to one another sometimes, but they also generally sincerely apologize for any hurt that's been incurred. Again, mileage will vary.

I don't think the lack of apology bothers me as much as Reid's reaction during that conversation. To me, that was the worst part of the episode. Where is Reid's backbone?! I think that conversation was the most frustrated I have been with a TV show in a long, long time. I've said it before, but there was so much wasted potential there with Reid's (lack of) reaction to what JJ was saying.

And if he had reacted appropriately, I think that would have hopefully knocked some sense into JJ and elicited an apology. Not to blame Reid for the lack of apology; I just think that the way his part of that conversation was written is a bigger problem than the lack of apology later on.

[ForeverAlone]

Reid did sound like a sad child, desperate for his mommy to feel better. Reid has the capacity to calmly, but clearly encourage someone to open up. Breen should have taken a look at "Aftermath" again before writing the scene between Reid and JJ in "The Forever People", because I really like the way that Reid got Elle to talk. He was concerned, assertive enough to get her to talk, and yet empathetic when she did start talking. It felt real and like two grownups talking about PTSD.