Relationships: Speed Dating

[Katsullivan]

If they ever let me write this show, I'd make Caitlin catch feelings for Barry, be rejected, embrace her dark side, go full villain and have to be killed. 

[Trini]

They should have always made her go full villain in any case. Not the short-lived/half-hearted way they did it in Season 3; or even in Season 4 when they went with Killer Frost being a separate person, and her still not being that bad.

But I was thinking lately (and I think there was a discussion about it in this thread some time ago) about how if Caitlin was ever an ex of Barry, she'd most likely have to leave the show.

In general with the DCTV shows (but I also think it's common TV thing), exes(/ex-love interests) don't stick around. And if they do, they aren't treated well, or become straight up villains. The ones who stayed for more than a season (off the top of my head): Barbara from Gotham, Laurel from Arrow, and Jimmy from Supergirl. Out of those, I think Jimmy fared the best, but he has been sidelined a lot.

I know some might want it, but I think Caitlin not being an actual love interest for Barry was better for her in terms of staying on the show (and on The Team) and getting other storylines.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Trini

[BeautifulFlower]

I really hope with all the talk about Iris new employees, we finally get some girl friendships for Iris. And when I mean friendship, I mean an ACTUAL friendship. No more of these one sided friendships. I don't need another Caitlin and Felicity. Ya'll know what I'm talking about. These writers always written Iris to be there for them, but it's never vice versa. 

[Trini]

(Well, I guess I'll fixate on this until I can see the rest of the gag reel ... )

On 8/23/2019 at 5:56 PM, Trini said:

This reminds me that we really should have had more family scenes last season.

[Featherhat]

On 8/25/2019 at 3:12 AM, Trini said:

I know some might want it, but I think Caitlin not being an actual love interest for Barry was better for her in terms of staying on the show (and on The Team) and getting other storylines.

If Caitlin had gone evil because she was an ex/was rejected by Barry that would have cemented Snowbarry in the minds of viewers/fans/critics etc as a thing way more than 1000 drunk karaoke scenes ever could have. Same with her dying after being an ex. I do wish they'd gone full on villain with KF though, without any romantic trauma. But the writers want to have it both ways. 

12 hours ago, Trini said:

This reminds me that we really should have had more family scenes last season.

I can't believe they didn't in a season about family and legacy, well I can but those scenes should almost literally write themselves.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Featherhat

[adora721]

11 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I do wish they'd gone full on villain with KF though, without any romantic trauma. But the writers want to have it both ways. 

They had the perfect setup for KF/Cait to go full villain because of her love for Ronnie, not romantic interest in Barry. We know that part of Cait blamed Barry for losing Ronnie in S1. We also had Barry's Flashpoint being the reason for KF in S3.  We also had Cait's trauma from fake Jay Garrick/Hunter Zolomon in S2. Those were perfect reasons for Cait to foster hidden anger that turned into hatred for Barry since he's the main reason these events happened to her. It would have also been a reason for KF trying to help kill Iris since that's Barry's true love just as Ronnie was Cait's. 

They could have dragged that out at least into S4 after HR's death/murder started weighing on Cait's conscience. And they could have shown Cisco showing her mercy and kindness despite how awful she treated him. We could have seen Cait/KF being drawn back to goodness because she truly loved Cisco as her BFF. Then we could have seen Cait/KF apologizing to Iris, Cecile, Joe, Cisco, and Barry finally as S4 closed and earning her way back on Team Flash. 

However, the "brilliant" minds running the show couldn't bring themselves to fully taint (she's already tainted) their precious snowflake even if it meant a meaty arc that made perfect sense. So, we got the nonsense story, retcon, and idiotic plot points instead.

Edited August 28, 2019 by adora721

[Starry]

18 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

It's one thing to not show them being intimate that way, but now they can't even have a small mention of WA have sex?

Some people can't bear the idea that they have sex 🙄

It gets worse and worse. In season 3 they skipped over their first time but they did show them in bed together, have an interrupted make-out session and reference to sex in conversations. In season 4 between Barry coming back from the SF, them getting married/going on a honeymoon and Barry getting out of prison they had ample opportunities to show something but they missed them all. The one spicier scene they got was cut and even their kisses were toned down. Season 5 was a disgrace. They barely kissed at all and any verbal reference to their sex life was cut. Considering how they treated WestAllen as a couple, a love scene wouldn't have fit IMO.

On 9/6/2019 at 4:32 AM, phoenics said:

All I know is that if the thought of losing Barry doesn't spur some lovemaking from Barry&Iris then I will riot.  Kids or no kids - at least hint that.  Insane for a married couple to be facing that kind of potential loss and we not see that lead to SOMETHING.

I am not a fan of random sex scenes being inserted "just because" but in this case it would fit. I hope Wallace knows that it's important to show the more romantic/sexual side of the couple as well. It absolutely can be done within the constraints of the PG rating. As of now, I trust him more than Helbing and Kreisberg with Iris/black women. I really hope he gives us something.

[BeautifulFlower]

When Tvline did that article about why Iris will have curls, people have been hoping that it's another girl night out with Iris employees.

I actually hope that is the case. It'll be fun to finally see Iris hang out with her own friends. Plus, it will be a proper redo of 4x05. That episode still irks me. It was suppose to be Iris bachelorette party celebrating her, but it got ruined by Caitlin's drama. Then, they had Iris running around trying to save the woman who didn't even consider her a friend.

Got off topic there. Anyway, Iris hanging with her employees to possibly take her mind off a crisis sounds fun. This time it will feel natural and not forced. I really hope it's her hanging out with her friends. 

Also as someone mentioned on twitter about this speculation, they said they hoped Caitlin isn't involve. The reasons being that she wouldn't really fit in. Caitlin would be the oddball. Honestly, I have to agree. While Iris gives off the vibe, she'll be friends with anybody (ex Felicity), Caitlin seems like she's only friends with people on her level.

[adora721]

13 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Caitlin seems like she's only friends with people on her level.

You mean murderers, traitors, human traffickers, and torturers?🤣 Those are Cait's level.

[BeautifulFlower]

Killer Frost considering Team Flash family will forever be forced and unearned. I still remember season 3, but that's not the only issue. As I said before, we barely saw her interaction with them. It was only mentions of stuff offscreen. Anytime she's on screen, it's for a fight and she gets knocked out pretty quickly. The writers really screwed up with trying to convince us she cares about them that much. Starting in season 4, why did she all of sudden care about them?

[adora721]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Killer Frost considering Team Flash family will forever be forced and unearned. I still remember season 3, but that's not the only issue. As I said before, we barely saw her interaction with them. It was only mentions of stuff offscreen. Anytime she's on screen, it's for a fight and she gets knocked out pretty quickly. The writers really screwed up with trying to convince us she cares about them that much. Starting in season 4, why did she all of sudden care about them?

Here's an interview with DP in which she admits that KF being on Team Flash wasn't really earned in S4; start at minute 2:44 . She goes on to say that it was "earned" in S5.  I vehemently disagree since she's yet to apologize or make amends to the people she tried to murder in S3.

[Trini]

Yep. Barry & Iris having their own song, still awesome!

[Trini]

From EW; six seasons and black showrunner later...:

Quote

Picking up in the immediate aftermath of Nora’s death in season 5, the new season dives right into how Barry (Grant Gustin) and Iris (Candice Patton) are grieving their daughter’s passing and dealing with the fact that the future newspaper now says Barry will disappear in 2019 instead of 2024. At the same time, though, Wallace also wants to explore the fact that Barry and Iris are an interracial couple and that there’s a mixed family at the heart of the show — but he’s not going to do it the way you expect.

“I want to get to the heart of maybe what that really means and we do it and I think we can do it in some subtle ways,” says Wallace. “I don’t want to be heavy-handed about it, but it might be as simple as the food that they eat at dinner or the music they listen to in the background of a scene. Those things, I’d like to see them really inform who these people are.”

Well, EW, this is the way I expected it to be done. I've said this before; they don't have to make a "very special episode" of it, but a simple acknowledgement of the very plain fact is what I've wanted. The previous showrunners/writers completely ignoring it was more weird than anything else.

[BaggythePanther]

48 minutes ago, Trini said:

Wallace also wants to explore the fact that Barry and Iris are an interracial couple and that there’s a mixed family at the heart of the show — but he’s not going to do it the way you expect.

“I want to get to the heart of maybe what that really means and we do it and I think we can do it in some subtle ways,” says Wallace. “I don’t want to be heavy-handed about it, but it might be as simple as the food that they eat at dinner or the music they listen to in the background of a scene. Those things, I’d like to see them really inform who these people are.”

I’ve been wanting this so much. If they talked about Aunt Ester’s noodle recipe one more time I was going to scream. It didn’t fit. Last season I think they finally switched it to something else. Black Lightning does little things like EW described and it makes the show feel more lived in. 

EW is saying all the right things, but I’m still trying to temper my expectations.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

EW is saying all the right things, but I’m still trying to temper my expectations.

I almost hate that he's giving me hope, because I've been burned so many times before! Things always sound great at the start of the season.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

Well, 'gifts' must be Barry's other love language, it was sweet that he got the jacket back for Iris! (From out of a black hole, no less!) It's actually a theme now that he surprises her with a present of some kind.

In the premiere, I liked that while there were scenes of Barry & Iris dealing with their grief separately, they showed them ultimately working through it together as a unit. I hope this continues throughout the season.

And I know we're heading towards Crisis, but they have more happy hugs too!

[Trini]

In other relationships: Nothing new with Joe and Cecile (and invisible Jenna). *sigh*

We did not meet Sue Dearbon, but it looks like it will be a recurring story for Ralph. Also with Ralph, he'll be helping Killer Frost become a "real girl"; but they make a good buddy duo.

Cisco and Kamilla are fine; but again they skipped over much of their development, and Kamilla's with the rest of the team. Kind of expected because of the summer hiatus, but I feel like it going to be a pattern for them.

[Katsullivan]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

Kamilla's with the rest of the team.

Remember when keeping the Flash a secret from Iris was a big deal?

[BaggythePanther]

On 10/10/2019 at 11:58 PM, Trini said:

Cisco and Kamilla are fine; but again they skipped over much of their development, and Kamilla's with the rest of the team.

Time to update the list of people who know that Barry is the Flash (bet that list is going to get much longer after Crisis).

[Featherhat]

On 10/11/2019 at 5:06 PM, Katsullivan said:

Remember when keeping the Flash a secret from Iris was a big deal?

I really, really roll my eyes about the shenanigans surrounding that, especially Joe forbidding Barry and then Eddie "until you're her husband". But the Main Love Interest finding out is a big deal hence why most shows drag it out for a long time until the characters all seem idiotic and/or you're bored of the whole thing. And then there was the lovely lightening moment, iconic, which is what they were going for. 

I think they like Kamilla but they aren't really putting much thought or importance into this relationship, hence they've blown through a lot of development and milestones. She found out about The Flash early and it's okay because the character isn't very significant anyway. 

Barry has never been particularly careful of his identity, which was why Patty never getting the confirmation she begged for was an anomaly. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

 think this is the issue. We can recognize that Iris is the most important person to Barry so why isn't she the one getting the most story after Barry? I agree that this was never going to be Barry&Iris but it shouldn't be Barry&Team either. Legends is the only Arrowverse show that has been sold as a team show. This one is about Barry so the natural order should be 1) Barry 2) Iris (because the shows structure presents her as the most important person to him not just from a sentimental standpoint but from a narrative one) 3) everyone else. Instead Flash started off with putting Barry above everyone else but lumping Iris in with the rest of the supporting cast which doesn't make sense because as the most important person to the lead she should be under Barry but above the rest, not on equal footing.

True, other Arrowverse love interests who happen to be white don't get treated like this, but because B/I is an IR romance its treated differently.  The Flash writers seem afraid to show the romance side of this show. B/I are always lumped in with the family or team stuff, almost never alone. The early seasons where much better in this regard but that has been on the decline since then. There is a disrespect to Iris as Barry's love interest and wife. Hope this year will be different. The premier was promising. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by CabotCove

[Trini]

10 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Time to update the list of people who know that Barry is the Flash (bet that list is going to get much longer after Crisis).

LOL! It's over a hundred now, so I gave up!

10 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I think they like Kamilla but they aren't really putting much thought or importance into this relationship, hence they've blown through a lot of development and milestones. She found out about The Flash early and it's okay because the character isn't very significant anyway. 

Pretty much. Also they want this to be an 'easy' relationship for Cisco, and a drama-free aspect of his life to contrast with all the superhero stuff.

[BaggythePanther]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

LOL! It's over a hundred now, so I gave up!

Wow, I didn’t realize the list had gotten that long. 

[Trini]

33 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

Wow, I didn’t realize the list had gotten that long. 

Oh, yeah. And that's only seasons 1-4.

[Trini]

Iris has been losing Barry one way or another since the pilot episode 😢 , so hopefully they can do something interesting, heartfelt, and true-to-character with how she (and Barry) deal with him disappearing; now that they know how soon beforehand.

Obviously, Barry/Iris is the top priority relationship, but I hope they don't forget about Joe's reactions. He is Barry's family as well (and the only parental figure he's got left), and they really should give Jesse L. Martin stuff to do while they have him.

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Obviously, Barry/Iris is the top priority relationship, but I hope they don't forget about Joe's reactions. He is Barry's family as well (and the only parental figure he's got left), and they really should give Jesse L. Martin stuff to do while they have him.

It would be nice if Joe had equal number of scenes bonding with his daughter over her impending loss for a change. After four years of endless heart to hearts, I think that Barry and Joe's scenes have lost their emotional punch and just feel repetitive. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I just didn't like how Joe asked them how they're doing over the loss of their daughter in FRONT of everybody. It's similar to last season when he asked if Iris would be staying with him.

[adora721]

I find it hilarious that the show is going out of its way to add more females for Iris to befriend and move her as far away as possible from Cait, the only other female who's been on the show from the start.  They're creating a huge buffer and separation while passing the Bechdel test. It's kind of genius, but so obvious.

I mean, I like that Iris has her own squad, but it's still pathetic the show never found a way to make a believable friendship work between Iris and Cait. The fact that Cait/KF is surrounded primarily by men is also telling. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

Cisco and Kamilla are fine, and I'm glad that Cisco is happy, and that Carlos is happy with this storyline - but - they are lacking any spark for me.

Joe and Cecile are also a tame, steady couple, but they're a little more interesting in their scenes together.

Anyway, platonic Killervibe is currently the best relationship for both Cisco and Caitlin/KF.

[phoenics]

23 hours ago, adora721 said:

I find it hilarious that the show is going out of its way to add more females for Iris to befriend and move her as far away as possible from Cait, the only other female who's been on the show from the start.  They're creating a huge buffer and separation while passing the Bechdel test. It's kind genius, but so obvious.

I mean, I like that Iris has her own squad, but it's still pathetic the show never found a way to make a believable friendship work between Iris and Cait. The fact that Cait/KF is surrounded primarily by men is also telling. 

Welp - DP did say that she loved being the only woman in Star Labs.  She can have it and hang with Ralph and Cisco with Barry barely being there like Tuesday's ep. 

[adora721]

Just found a description that fits Cait and KF at the DC Comics website

"Sociopathic by nature, Killer Frost’s icy exterior matches her chillingly cold interior. Militant and sadistic, she enjoys killing and feels no remorse when taking another’s life. Frost constantly finds herself at odds with the hero Firestorm, whose vast output of energy provides a massive power source for the villain. And when it comes to unlimited power, Frost will kill anyone in her way to get it."

Totally explains why neither apologizes and feels no guilt about hurting, murdering, or working in human trafficking.

[Katsullivan]

On 10/17/2019 at 11:16 PM, adora721 said:

Totally explains why neither apologizes and feels no guilt about hurting, murdering, or working in human trafficking.

Now if only they work that into the actual script...

[phoenics]

I didn't know where else to put this so I'm gonna put this here.

The writers think they're slick.

For the past couple of episodes, I have been trying to figure out what has been bothering me about the show format and how things were progressing.  I finally figured it out.

It feels like Eric's response to 5+ years of hate being spewed at Iris/CP for existing is to just ... give the haters exactly what they want.  Diminish Iris.  Elevate TF (with Cait always listed or remembered first) and then diminish Iris even more with Barry elevating Joe over Iris in importance to him.  Make KF into Caitlin+Powers+DragMakeup and then give her multiple solo scenes with Barry while Westallen have no solo scenes together since episode 2.

The increase in scenes with Barry/KF - solo scenes at that - is glaring.  There were more of those than even scenes with Barry/Cisco.  Add that it happened at the same time that Iris seems like she disappeared and it's glaring.

Even the way the director's shot the scene where Cisco finds out about Barry dying and in the conversation happening where KF gives advice about Cisco to Barry (advice that couldn't have come from KF as she doesn't know Cisco like that - it was Caitlin advice), and Iris is cut out of the scene almost completely like she's not even sitting there with Barry.  The camera pulls in close to KF and Barry and Iris is edged out of the frame.  It was so glaring when it happened - especially since KF shouldn't be the one giving that kind of advice to Barry - she doesn't know either one of them like that.

It even explains why Barry and Iris are sitting SO FAR APART in that scene - it's so the camera could pull in tight on Barry and KF - all to leave crumbs for a hateful, racist fandom.

I'm SO pissed.

When you then look at the scene where Barry and KF are talking on the balcony (WTF) and Iris comes into the scene almost as an aside - it's just triply glaring what's going on.

I swear these are crumbs for the SB/Iris-hater fans.  I don't think they are gonna do SB or Barry+KF (lol) but they are definitely shooting in a way that gives that fandom real crumbs to play with.  That's why they have KF "taking over" for Caitlin.  Because they couldn't get away as easily with Caitlin and Barry having these "heart to hearts" with Iris being shoved out of the scene via camera angles.

Meanwhile it's like Iris doesn't even really exist in the narrative when she SHOULD.  Her absence is glaring.  The team taking her and Barry's support but not one of them asking how Iris is doing is glaring.  Barry elevating Joe over Iris is glaring.  The whole narrative has been set up to show Iris being diminished and the team being given the same importance that she has.

I'm so mad.  I feel really betrayed by Eric.

Edited October 30, 2019 by phoenics

[SimoneS]

I don't see the show as giving any crumbs to fans who hate Iris or WestAllen and it certainly isn't responsible for what those fans want to read into every interaction on the screen. 

[SimoneS]

After the special Ralph episode, the show will likely have a very special Iris episode where Iris confides in Joe since she has no friends. It will likely be the episode before the crossover.

[Trini]

They do seem to be following a formula this year - at least for the A-plots: Barry + team member. I did like that we got a Barry/Cisco A-plot, since there hasn't been one in forever.

Why would they cut this hug though?? 😢

---

Iris and Ralph are a good pair, so if they were just going to have her attached to his plot in the last episode, they should have just made it more substantial. And they could both talk about how they feel about Barry dying.

[Starry]

7 hours ago, SimoneS said:

After the special Ralph episode, the show will likely have a very special Iris episode where Iris confides in Joe since she has no friends. It will likely be the episode before the crossover.

I'll take this to be honest 🤷🏻

[BeautifulFlower]

I was on Reddit and I actually saw someone ask does Joe love Barry or Iris more. I can't believe I saw this type of question.

We all know that Joe loves his daughter more than Barry. However, I can see why people would ask this type of question. I understand that this show is about Barry, so we see Joe's relationship with him more. I don't understand why Joe/Iris relationship have to get the shaft for. We'll go episodes at a time without any Joe/Iris scene. Sometimes, their scenes feel like a reminder to the audience that Joe is Iris father.

Moving on. I saw a screenshot of an instagram post that disrespected Henry Allen. They said that Barry is Joe's son They said that Henry was a good man and deserved better, but Henry never got the opportunity to be Barry's father. I had to stop reading right there. What did I just read? Henry never got the chance to be Barry's father. I'm sorry, but did Henry not raise Barry since the day he was born? The disrespect.

[Featherhat]

Well I can see why the question was asked. Logically Iris is the daughter he raised from birth and Barry is his ward from 11, if push comes to shove....

However the show has almost no Joe/Iris scenes and a huge amount of Barry/Joe scenes. Joe even mentioned at the wedding rehearsal party that he raised them both and they both called him "Dad", the one time not to mention it. Joe does love Barry as if he was his own flesh and blood and it's great that he does and the show is making points about what constitutes family it's just a shame Joe/Iris scenes are scarce. It was also frustrating that whilst Wally was on he seemed more interested in him as well. And Iris's POV in the storyline was quickly done away with. 

9 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Moving on. I saw a screenshot of an instagram post that disrespected Henry Allen. They said that Barry is Joe's son They said that Henry was a good man and deserved better, but Henry never got the opportunity to be Barry's father. I had to stop reading right there. What did I just read? Henry never got the chance to be Barry's father. I'm sorry, but did Henry not raise Barry since the day he was born? The disrespect.

I can see why they said it and I don't think it's disrespectful, although I haven't seen the context of the original post. Of course Henry was Barry's father and thankfully they had the best relationship they could whilst he was still in prison for 15+ years. But he was robbed of so much of being a father. He wasn't able to be there practically and if not for Barry's own stubbornness Barry would have changed his name and left him to rot in prison an innocent man. Joe became his father practically and in many ways emotionally and Henry deserved better than to miss those years and then get murdered soon after though the only one at fault here is Thawne. And Zoom. Barry is lucky to have both.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Featherhat

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I was on Reddit and I actually saw someone ask does Joe love Barry or Iris more. I can't believe I saw this type of question.

We all know that Joe loves his daughter more than Barry. However, I can see why people would ask this type of question. I understand that this show is about Barry, so we see Joe's relationship with him more. I don't understand why Joe/Iris relationship have to get the shaft for. We'll go episodes at a time without any Joe/Iris scene. Sometimes, their scenes feel like a reminder to the audience that Joe is Iris father.

No one would ever accuse Laurel's father of loving Oliver more than Laurel.  Arrow went to great pains to establish a strong father/daughter bond.  Though it did have some paternalistic vibes to it.

I think the Flash's writing room is too male dominated - it's why even in S1, Iris' relationship with her father and Barry infantilized her.  The show rightly got blowback from that - but it feels like it didn't know what to replace those conversations with, so we got nothing.

The Flash writers room desperately needs black women writers.

It's no shock that one of the BEST Titans episodes in 2 seasons was written by a black woman - and it was her first time.

[adora721]

I still hate that Joe calls Barry "son." That's just creepy on many levels. Sorry, I'll never enjoy that's how Joe sees the man married to his daughter. I get what he means, but it's over the top IMO. Joe even gave Barry Joe's father's watch and didn't even think of giving it to Wally, his actual son. I'm sure Wally would have appreciated the effort to connect him to a grandfather he never knew. But these writers see no issue with making Barry numero uno over Joe's actual children.

[Trini]

59 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I still hate that Joe calls Barry "son." That's just creepy on many levels. Sorry, I'll never enjoy that's how Joe sees the man married to his daughter. I get what he means, but it's over the top IMO. Joe even gave Barry Joe's father's watch and didn't even think of giving it to Wally, his actual son. I'm sure Wally would have appreciated the effort to connect him to a grandfather he never knew. But these writers see no issue with making Barry numero uno over Joe's actual children.

It's a term of endearment, he is his father-in-law, and Barry does consider Joe a father figure, so I don't think calling him 'son' is inappropriate.

I'm pretty sure the watch thing happened before Wally showed up. It should have gone to Iris. But I agree with you that they have prioritized Joe/Barry over Joe's relationships with his other children.

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, Trini said:

I'm pretty sure the watch thing happened before Wally showed up.

The watch thing happened because Wally showed up. Joe literally gave it to Barry to re-affirm that no one, not even his flesh and blood would supplant Barry in his heart. 

Talk about a metaphorical cuckoo in the nest.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

It's a term of endearment, he is his father-in-law, and Barry does consider Joe a father figure, so I don't think calling him 'son' is inappropriate.

I realize it's a term of endearment and it preceded his marriage to Iris. It's still creepy that he considered him a son before they were married since the whole incest issue cast a pall over the WestAllen relationship, even amongst some reputable media outlets.  Why continue to give people reasons to think of them as incestuous? You'd think they'd play it down. I know how DNA works, so that's not my issue, but it is for some.

[Trini]

They're family - one of the things that is the heart of the show. I don't think they need to play that down for the tiny amount of people who are obtuse.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

They're family - one of the things that is the heart of the show. I don't think they need to play that down for the tiny amount of people who are obtuse.

Since the West family is the heart of the show, I wish they would play up all the relationships within that family unit and not just Barry and Joe. I get why, Barry is the star, but it is not good story telling because it makes Joe looks bad and lessen the show.

[Starry]

I don't mind Joe calling Barry son. It is a term of endearment that often gets used by older men when talking to younger men they have a close relationship with. But it annoys me when Joe talks to other people and says things like "my son Barry". It's not because I find it creepy/wrong but because I know that after such scenes I have to deal with WestAllen haters claiming that "this is why Barry and Iris is squicky". I swear fandom has ruined BarryJoe for me.

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

Why continue to give people reasons to think of them as incestuous? You'd think they'd play it down.

I guess there's no point in playing it down now when they couldn't be bothered in previous seasons. Now that Barry and Iris are married Joe referring to Barry as his son actually makes sense.

[BeautifulFlower]

The show flat out said in the pilot that Barry and Iris are not brother and sister. Iris said this herself. These people just focused on Iris saying "brother" and ignored the other words stated after it.

They know deep down that it's not incest They're just using it as an excuse for not shipping it.

[SevenStars]

52 minutes ago, Starry said:

 I swear fandom has ruined BarryJoe for me.

For me, it is the writers. Joe and Barry were my favorite relationship on the show, even above Westallen as a romantic couple. But the writers ruined it for me by downplaying Joe's relationship with Iris and Wally. So now when I see Barry and Joe's scenes, I feel some type of way about them. I can't love/enjoy them the way I did before I realized that for the most part Joe/Iris&Joe/Wally relationship was just going to be use as plot point while only Barry get the actually relationship with him. 

So unlike before, I am just like whatever, when it comes to their scenes, despite the fact that Jesse and Grant have great chemistry together. Same way Jesse/Candice does. 

[BeautifulFlower]

As I've seen someone say on twitter, if Sue wasn't gonna appear this season, you would think they were setting up a Killer Frost and Ralph romance. I have to agree.

The way she acted in the beginning and when Barry was running high fever and she saw Ralph. Killer Frost clearly cares about him. Dare I say they've been showing her to care more about him than Caitlin? Remember she wouldn't come out to help Caitlin when she was in danger twice? She sure is quick to come to Ralph's aid. What is with the writing choices?