Relationships: Speed Dating

[adora721]

Confirmation (it seems) that TPTB did consider doing SB from GG's interview at SDCC: https://twitter.com/TinaLBelcher/status/1021481886479208449

[SevenStars]

54 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Confirmation (it seems) that TPTB did consider doing SB from GG's interview at SDCC: https://twitter.com/TinaLBelcher/status/1021481886479208449

Grant is a romantic and I appreciate that about him.

 

So TPTB probably had DP push for SB publicly to test the waters. Unfortunately/fortunately for them, Iris fans saw this play before and pushed hard for a different ending. I mean Iris/Westallens fans created a defense squad to fight and defend Iris before the show even aired because they knew what could happen if Iris fans wasn't loud enough to be heard. They seen what happen before and wasn't going to let that happen again. I have to say, I'm grateful for those fans.

Edited July 23, 2018 by SevenStars

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Confirmation (it seems) that TPTB did consider doing SB from GG's interview at SDCC: https://twitter.com/TinaLBelcher/status/1021481886479208449

Can't wait to see SB's claim they were right, which they weren't. If I'm not mistaken, they were convinced the writers were setting up SB all throughout season 1 (2 baiting episodes is not setting up).

 

48 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

Grant is a romantic and I appreciate that about him.

 

So TPTB probably had DP push for SB publicly to test the waters. Unfortunately/fortunately for them, Iris fans saw this play before and pushed hard for a different ending. I mean Iris/Westallens fans created a defense squad to fight and defend Iris before the show even aired because they knew what could happen if Iris fans wasn't loud enough to be heard. They seen what happen before and wasn't going to let that happen again. I have to say, I'm grateful for those fans.

I'm grateful for those fans too. However, DP was still baiting after season 1. Someone said DP didn't bait SB when Barry was dating Patty. I don't know if it is true. If it is, it's very telling. You really can't convince people there wasn't some grand conspiracy to remove Iris/Candice. If AK didn't have higher ups, we might have seen SB on the show.

[Trini]

Only half a season (the anomalous 2A) wasn't about WestAllen; so hardly a "grand" "conspiracy", but that's just me.

 

8 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Grant is a romantic and I appreciate that about him.

 

He is! And it's great that he supported Barry & Iris coming together sooner, rather than later. However, I expected multiple love interests before getting ending with Iris, his True Love, so I didn't mind Linda or even Patty(as a love interest-there were other problems with her). They could have drawn out the romance way more, but didn't. They had multiple opportunities to make Barry/Caitlin happen -even short term- but didn't.

But Grant's quote reminds me of an interview in Season 3, where he was asked about Barry & Iris breaking up (before the musical), and then he starts talking about how beautiful the first proposal was. You could tell he didn't like that plot twist!

[Starry]

At PaleyFest Grant said he didn't understand why they broke up, lol.

 

13 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Can't wait to see SB's claim they were right, which they weren't. If I'm not mistaken, they were convinced the writers were setting up SB all throughout season 1 (2 baiting episodes is not setting up).

Two baiting episodes is not a set-up but they did consider doing SB as a legit temporary ship. And it happened early on. Grant's interview confirms it so those who were convinced that TPTB never intended to do more than ship-baiting SB were wrong.

This is speculation on my part by I wonder if Grant didn't manage to convince them to end Spallen and Iris/Scott earlier than intended. The actress for Patty talked about how sudden and unexpected her departure was and the actor for Scott was supposed to appear in at least four episodes but he ended up getting two.

[SevenStars]

9 hours ago, Starry said:

At PaleyFest Grant said he didn't understand why they broke up, lol.

 

Two baiting episodes is not a set-up but they did consider doing SB as a legit temporary ship. And it happened early on. Grant's interview confirms it so those who were convinced that TPTB never intended to do more than ship-baiting SB were wrong.

This is speculation on my part by I wonder if Grant didn't manage to convince them to end Spallen and Iris/Scott earlier than intended. The actress for Patty talked about how sudden and unexpected her departure was and the actor for Scott was supposed to appear in at least four episodes but he ended up getting two.

If I remember correctly, Patty was only suppose to be on the show for those certain # of episodes. But the actress might have been surprise that they didn't want to keep Patty pass the episodes they promised her because she saw the amount of screen time the writers spent developing her character while side-lining the character/actor who was the leading lady. She probably was hopping that meant they love her/Patty enough to keep her for the long-term, which she saw happen on Arrow with Felicity and other shows. 

As for Scott, I don't know, cause they really did nothing with him. I don't know if it's cause they had no interest in writing for Iris so Scott suffered for that since his main connection was her. Or something else. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by SevenStars

[wingster55]

20 hours ago, adora721 said:

Confirmation (it seems) that TPTB did consider doing SB from GG's interview at SDCC: https://twitter.com/TinaLBelcher/status/1021481886479208449

The setup was there for Caitlin to have some feelings toward him. Cisco stating that Ronnie and Barry were the only ones to get Caitlin really upset is a very non subtle hint.

Edited July 24, 2018 by wingster55

[BeautifulFlower]

6 hours ago, Starry said:

The actress for Patty talked about how sudden and unexpected her departure was and the actor for Scott was supposed to appear in at least four episodes but he ended up getting two.

 

5 hours ago, SevenStars said:

If I remember correctly, Patty was only suppose to be on the show for those certain # if episodes. But the actress might have been surprise that they didn't want to keep Patty pass the episodes they promised her because she saw the amount screen the writers spent developing her character while side-lining the character/actor who was the leading woman. She probably was hopping that meant they love her/Patty enough to keep her for the long-term, which she saw happen on Arrow with Felicity and other shows. 

 

There was speculation that AJK probably gave her false hope that she would be on the show longer. Of course, that's if they thought Patty was a hit with the audience. Considering how much Iris was on screen during Patty's tenure, they clearly tried to make her a hit. Someone even said that in an interview, Shantel said she tried running to Grant to keep her on the show. What did they feed her behind the scenes?

Honestly, I'm glad Patty is gone (her becoming a cop just to kill will never sit right with me). Who knows what would have happened to Iris if Patty had stayed.

[adora721]

Some SB are spinning it: https://twitter.com/MarieT1834/status/1021827341012664320

 

[BeautifulFlower]

5 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Some SB are spinning it: https://twitter.com/MarieT1834/status/1021827341012664320

 

Of course they are. They don't want to accept reality and are delusional. Seriously, Grant literally said he was pushing for Barry and Iris to get together in the beginning. He said he wasn't a fan of temporary relationships as it didn't make sens for Barry to date other girls when he loved Iris. How deluded is this person?

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, wingster55 said:

The setup was there for Caitlin to have some feelings toward him. Cisco stating that Ronnie and Barry were the only ones to get Caitlin really upset is a very non subtle hint.

?Girl! I was basically accused of being an SB-shipper for pointing out that the show was deliberately fanbaiting SB.

Thank goodness for Grant being pro-Westallen and standing up for it. Because if Stephen Amnell/Olicity is any indication, these shows do go out of their way to keep their white male leads happy. 

But let's not pretend any more that Snowbarry wasn't a very legitimate consideration and threat against Westallen, and Iris's eventual longevity on the show. 

 

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

 

There was speculation that AJK probably gave her false hope that she would be on the show longer. Of course, that's if they thought Patty was a hit with the audience. Considering how much Iris was on screen during Patty's tenure, they clearly tried to make her a hit. Someone even said that in an interview, Shantel said she tried running to Grant to keep her on the show. What did they feed her behind the scenes?

Honestly, I'm glad Patty is gone (her becoming a cop just to kill will never sit right with me). Who knows what would have happened to Iris if Patty had stayed.

I'm wondering if Patty wasn't a compromise since Grant was so against SB. By giving him a temporary LI with a fixed start/end-time instead of being stuck with Snowbarry and having to deal with the fallout of that post-breakup since DP is clearly not leaving the show soon.

And yeah, with the way Iris was written in 2A, I'm quite certain that if Patty had been a smidgen bit more popular, CP would have been out of work. 

[adora721]

15 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I'm wondering if Patty wasn't a compromise since Grant was so against SB.

At least Patty Spivot was comic canon; they did have a relationship in the Flash comics.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

At least Patty Spivot was comic canon; they did have a relationship in the Flash comics.

If I remember correctly, that relationship happened becausd Barry thought Iris was dead. And the relationship ended when Barry found out that Iris was alive, lol.

[wingster55]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

?Girl!

Wrong gender :P

39 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

If I remember correctly, that relationship happened becausd Barry thought Iris was dead. And the relationship ended when Barry found out that Iris was alive, lol.

I don't remember/know about pre new-52 but in the new 52 he dated Patty before he had (or realized he had) feelings for Iris. I believe they broke up because of said feelings.

[Trini]

9 hours ago, Starry said:

This is speculation on my part by I wonder if Grant didn't manage to convince them to end Spallen and Iris/Scott earlier than intended. The actress for Patty talked about how sudden and unexpected her departure was and the actor for Scott was supposed to appear in at least four episodes but he ended up getting two.

9 hours ago, SevenStars said:

As for Scott, I don't know, cause they really did nothing with him. I don't know if it's cause they had no interest in writing for Iris so Scott suffered for that since his main connection was her. Or something else. 

With Scott, there was also some backlash that Iris was going to be dating her boss. (Well, I know I was upset at the setup of Scott asking out his subordinate employee. They should have done it differently, because I did want to see Iris date someone else before getting with Barry; plus the actor was fine.?) That arc was definitely nixed early; I don't know if that can be connected to Grant, though.
 

Quote

But let's not pretend any more that Snowbarry wasn't a very legitimate consideration and threat against Westallen, and Iris's eventual longevity on the show.

We know there was some baiting (and now we know why it was so one-sided!), but I don't think it was a serious threat. Yeah, they considered Barry/Caitlin, and then clearly rejected the idea after season 1.

But back to Grant's recent quote; it seems to me that he had been sold on the Barry/Iris love story early on. I assume he did some of his own research with the comics stories, but I think that most(?) of it came from the producers/writers. WestAllen was always going to happen eventually.

[Katsullivan]

33 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Wrong gender :P

☺️ But come on. ... "Boy!" doesn't have the same ring to it. ?

 

8 minutes ago, Trini said:

But back to Grant's recent quote; it seems to me that he had been sold on the Barry/Iris love story early on. I assume he did some of his own research with the comics stories, but I think that most(?) of it came from the producers/writers. WestAllen was always going to happen eventually.

Huh? If anything from Grant's quote, it sounds like the producers/writers were pushing Snowbarry and Grant was solely pushing back. Which fits with the way the staff writers/showrunners edited guest-written episodes to tone down on Westallen content. If Grant hadn't pushed so hard for Westallen, it would have gone the way of Lauriver. 

(In fact, I wonder if they hadn't deliberately cast Iris as a black girl because they intended to follow Arrow's formula from the start. Yeah, I know it sounds like another one of Kat's wild conspiracy theories but I had a conspiracy theory about planned-Snowbarry and DP and AJK and we've seen how that panned out...) 

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

At least Patty Spivot was comic canon; they did have a relationship in the Flash comics.

Patty definitely makes more sense than Linda Park, who was Wally's love interest from comics. But it's suspect the way they wrote the 2 relationships with Barry. Linda was a rebound relationship that he ended the moment he got a glimmer of hope from Iris, and we had Iris be visibly affected by Linda/Barry and Linda be visibly unnerved by Westallen's closeness. With Spallen, Iris was all but written out of the show, and when she was allowed to interact with Spallen, she played the role of Barry's sister. Patty even lampshades that when she asks Iris for advice. 

[adora721]

22 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

If Grant hadn't pushed so hard for Westallen, it would have gone the way of Lauriver. 

Even though WA was the endgame, they could have made SB a real ship and then delayed and delayed and delayed like they did on "Smallville" with Clark and Lana dating most of the series before Clark got with Lois. If that had happened, I suspect that SB would have been so entrenched that it would take a serious, outrageous event to break them up.  And would Caitlin have remained on the show after such a break up?! It's one thing to date a guest star who you know will be leaving; it's quite another to date a main character who'll remain after the relationship is over.

Even now, the way they broke up Clana seemed forced, and it made Lois look like Clark's consolation prize or second choice. It was like, 

Spoiler

"Well since Lana is infused with kryptonite now, I literally can't be with her or I'll die, so I might as well get with Lois."

No woman wants to be a runner up in love.

And if there had been a protracted delay, I'm quite certain the audience might have felt resentment towards WA because of being invested in SB for so long. I'm grateful Grant pushed to make WA happen.

[Trini]

I don't think the situation on Smallville is comparable when it comes to 'endgame' relationships. It had a different setup. Lois didn't even show up until Season 4.

4 hours ago, adora721 said:

No woman wants to be a runner up in love.

True.

With The Flash's setup, Caitlin would be the runner-up. Barry was shown to be in love with Iris presently, and since childhood - before ever meeting Caitlin. Maybe that's one reason why they decided not to put them together, since they wanted to keep Caitlin/Danielle, and not have her be a speed bump on the road to WestAllen. (And with the Killer Frost arc in Season 3, it would have even uglier for Caitlin, because then she'd literally be the evil ex. /Scott Pilgrim  Yeah, they made the right decision.)

[Katsullivan]

18 minutes ago, Trini said:

With The Flash's setup, Caitlin would be the runner-up. Barry was shown to be in love with Iris presently, and since childhood - before ever meeting Caitlin. Maybe that's one reason why they decided not to put them together, since they wanted to keep Caitlin/Danielle, and not have her be a speed bump on the road to WestAllen. (And with the Killer Frost arc in Season 3, it would have even uglier for Caitlin, because then she'd literally be the evil ex. /Scott Pilgrim  Yeah, they made the right decision.)

Well that's how it's all worked out now, 3 seasons in --- but we have no idea how it would have worked out if Grant hadn't put his foot down. They very well might have written Caitlin as the "Lana" character, and Iris as the "Lois" where Iris basically ends up with Barry as default. 

 

5 hours ago, adora721 said:

 

Even now, the way they broke up Clana seemed forced, and it made Lois look like Clark's consolation prize or second choice. It was like, 

  Hide contents

"Well since Lana is infused with kryptonite now, I literally can't be with her or I'll die, so I might as well get with Lois."

They literally had to fire the original Smallville showrunners for the new showrunners to break up Clana and make Clois. That's how dedicated the original PTB were to endgame Clana. And you're absolutely right that Lois is written as the "love the one you've got because you can't have the one you love" romance. It was deliberate. 

I always see Smallville as a kind of "learning school" for how fandom treats WOC, especially WOC that dare to be written as the desirable, sought-after, beloved love interest of the Main Hero, and especially WOC that have white women propping them (first Chloe, then Lois). In other words, WOC that dare to be written the way White women traditionally have been written. 

[paulvdb]

Based on what I've seen on the show and what I've read about the showrunners I don't believe Barry/Caitlin would ever be a serious competition for Barry/Iris. I know that AJK was already a friend of Danielle Panabaker before the show started and it would not surprise me if he would have liked to make Caitlin the main love interest. But I believe that Berlanti was always more supportive of Barry/Iris and would have overruled any serious attempts by AJK to derail that relationship. So the best AJK and DP could do was some small scenes and some shipbaiting in interviews.

[Starry]

14 hours ago, adora721 said:

Even though WA was the endgame, they could have made SB a real ship and then delayed and delayed and delayed like they did on "Smallville" with Clark and Lana dating most of the series before Clark got with Lois. If that had happened, I suspect that SB would have been so entrenched that it would take a serious, outrageous event to break them up. [...] And if there had been a protracted delay, I'm quite certain the audience might have felt resentment towards WA because of being invested in SB for so long. I'm grateful Grant pushed to make WA happen.

Agreed. The audience already resents the fact that Iris dares step foot in STAR Labs and interrupt their non-existent OTF dynamic. I can't even imagine what they would say if Barry and Caitlin were a legit couple that eventually would have been dropped for a WA endgame. At first I expected Barry and Caitlin to get together. I even accepted it as a necessary evil but looking back and knowing what I know about the audience I'm overjoyed SB never happened.

I'm happy Grant told them he doesn't want drama because SB threat aside, WA could have gone the Olicity route, with multiple break-ups, broken engagements and third parties thrown at both characters in-between periods of dating. I still have lots of problems with the writing but I'm glad once Iris was ready to date Barry all the drama we got was one Flashpoint episode (with lots of WA) and a post-engagement separation that lasted one episode.

[BeautifulFlower]

5 hours ago, paulvdb said:

Based on what I've seen on the show and what I've read about the showrunners I don't believe Barry/Caitlin would ever be a serious competition for Barry/Iris. I know that AJK was already a friend of Danielle Panabaker before the show started and it would not surprise me if he would have liked to make Caitlin the main love interest. But I believe that Berlanti was always more supportive of Barry/Iris and would have overruled any serious attempts by AJK to derail that relationship. So the best AJK and DP could do was some small scenes and some shipbaiting in interviews.

I don't know about Berlanti. It most likely Geoff who supported Barry/Iris. He works with DC and is writing the current comics for The Flash. He's a co-creator and there was no way he would have allowed for them to have someone other than Iris be the main love interest

[adora721]

5 hours ago, paulvdb said:

But I believe that Berlanti was always more supportive of Barry/Iris and would have overruled any serious attempts by AJK to derail that relationship. So the best AJK and DP could do was some small scenes and some shipbaiting in interviews.

While I agree with you in theory, I think that's why more subtle ways were used in an attempt to undermine WA. Some of the writing in S1 and S2 emphasized Barry and Iris as siblings, which fed a certain segment of the audience and even the media who saw their potential romance as incest. They even doubled down on Joe and Barry's "father/son" relationship in S2 even though Joe's literal son showed up in S2. They even had Joe give Barry Joe's father's watch after Joe learned about Wally in 2x9. What kind of sense did that make? 

And before you counter with Berlanti et. al couldn't have anticipated the negativity towards WA growing up under the same roof, remember that it was Berlanti et. al who set up Oliver and Laurel with Oliver having cheated on Laurel with her own sister.  These seasoned producers and writers thought that was a great setup for an endgame couple. If I recall correctly, it was both media and audience backlash against Lauriver's toxic setup that pushed the "Arrow" showrunners to go with Felicity.

Now, WestAllen's setup wasn't toxic, but it was problematic and confusing for some. Which then begs the question: Why have Barry being raised with Iris at all? Why not have Barry and Iris just be childhood best friends who grew up living next door to each other with Barry being raised by his paternal grandmother after Henry's incarceration? With that setup, Barry would still have many encounters with Joe because of his deep friendship with Iris. And after his loving grandma died once Barry was an adult, he'd spend even more time with Joe and Iris. I don't think the media tide turned towards WA until S3 with Flashpoint. For many in the media, Flashpoint was a kind of slate wipe for WA since they didn't grow up together raised by Joe and still fell in love. 

So, never underestimate the power of subterfuge in gaining one's objective. I think the IWDS, Berlanti, and Geoff Johns had a strong will to make WA happen, but that's not to say that audience and media rejection of WA wouldn't have worked to prevent their relationship from becoming canon.

[Kate45]

I do think it’s important for us to realize that Grant never said WestAllen was off the table. They were playing with the timeline of *when* to make it happen, not *if* it should happen. 

What I got from it was that Grant saves us from SB ever being canon. I think most of us agree that SB was teased at points in season 1, even though it was dropped for portions as well. Again, if the SB people can pick up on the one-sided teases, then they can pick up on the obvious clues about WA. They are still being obtuse. How SB exists after Barry didn’t lift a finger to get her back from Zoom is a mystery that I will never understand. 

@adora721 I think we may have covered some of that information previously in this discussion. Joe was created based on Daryl Frye in the comics, who raised Barry. While I agree it’s not the ideal set-up and many issues have come from it that could have been avoided, I also think the viewers that insist WA is incest are also being obtuse. 

According to this show, Barry has no family members. The wedding would have been a perfect opportunity to address it, but they missed out on a natural way to confront the issue. 

I’m not sure that some people would ever get on board with WA. They didn’t like them in Earth-2, or FlashPoint. They tend to make up BS excuses, but eventually get back to claiming they lack chemistry ?. So, yes, it was a problematic set-up, but far from the actual reason *some* people don’t like them. 

[Katsullivan]

16 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I do think it’s important for us to realize that Grant never said WestAllen was off the table. They were playing with the timeline of *when* to make it happen, not *if* it should happen. 

 

I don't agree with this - "when" it happened might have effected "if" it happened. It's all very well for them to say "let's do SB first, then endgame WA" and then go "oh lookit how popular SB is, the fans will never accept WA, so if it's not broken...".

And there's the Clana vs Clois example above, where Smallville made the "starter" romance the One True Romance of the show, with the "endgame" romance as the "settling" option. 

[adora721]

34 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

Joe was created based on Daryl Frye in the comics, who raised Barry. While I agree it’s not the ideal set-up and many issues have come from it that could have been avoided, I also think the viewers that insist WA is incest are also being obtuse. 

 

Thanks for providing the comic origins of Joe West. However, I wish they had gone with a Daryl Frye raising Barry. Perhaps they could have made Daryl Henry's best friend who continued to believe in Henry's innocence and raised Barry living next door to Barry's best friend. It would have been a less problematic setup. Basically, anyone but Iris' father raising Barry would have been better, IMO.

As for being "obtuse": One of the first things you learn as a writer is to figure out the reading level of your audience. It's usually the 8th grade level for the US. The writing could have been very clear when talking about Joe's legal relationship to Barry, but chose not to. Barry called Joe his "foster dad" when speaking to Linda Park; other times, the term "adopted" was used by Joe and others. On the back of the DVD, the writing calls the Wests Barry's "adopted family." That's sloppy, inconsistent, and confusing writing. And to this day, the writers haven't cleared it up. So, in one sense, I'm not surprised that some audience members think of WA as incestuous. However, your other points about why some hate WA  are also valid. I'm just saying that the writing could have removed that ambiguity, but instead doubled down on it.

Edited July 25, 2018 by adora721

[DearEvette]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't know about Berlanti. It most likely Geoff who supported Barry/Iris. He works with DC and is writing the current comics for The Flash. He's a co-creator and there was no way he would have allowed for them to have someone other than Iris be the main love interest

Well, whoever is responsible for shutting down non-Iris distractions for Barry, I am glad they had the clout to put any brakes on Barry/Caitlin, Barry/Patty etc.  The Flash could have easily gone the route of the Arrow where the long running comic cannon of Dinah/Oliver being a long-time couple who get married is completely ignored in favor of Felicity -- a minor character in the series who never had a romantic relationship with Oliver.  They brought her character to the fore in the comics in 2014 in response to her popularity on the show.  But even still Dinah/Oliver were still endgame.

I think to some extent we also have to credit the Iris and WA fandom.  A lot gets talked about SFF fandom and their treatment of WOC characters -- and it is truly toxic -- I think the WA fandom really responded in force to any negative threats to WA in general and Iris in particular.  Having followed it for some time, I got the impression that people weren't gonna allow Iris, their leading lady, to get shafted the way so many other WOC characters in SFF.  I also think this is especially true since I (anecdotally) believe a lot of Abbie Mills fans (Sleepy Hollow) were also Iris West fans and were extra determined not to have Iris fate follow in Abbie's footsteps. 

So i think it was just as important for the creators to know that Candice had a strong and vocal fanbase, just as strong and vocal (if not more so) than her detractors.

[adora721]

It just occurred to me that Grant is a huge Superman fan. I wonder if he watched "Smallville" and was upset with how they handled Clana vs Clois. Therefore, when he became The Flash, he was like, "Nay, we're not messing up the endgame of WestAllen like that." Just speculating, mind you.

[paulvdb]

I'm not a comics reader so I don't particularly care for comics canon and don't need tv producers to follow it to the letter. Besides, it's my understanding that comics canon is rebooted on a somewhat regular basis, so there isn't even a single comics canon. So I would happily ship Barry with someone other than Iris if there had been another actress who had better chemistry with Grant Gustin. But I didn't see that with Caitlin or Patty. And I liked Linda as a friend of Iris but wasn't invested in her romance with Barry. The only reason why I didn't ship Barry/Iris from the start was that I liked the Iris/Eddie relationship.

I think the main difference between Arrow and The Flash is that The Flash had better writing and a better actress for the comics canon love interest, It's hard to get invested in a relationship when the main character cheated on his love interest with her sister. And Katie Cassidy never managed to sell me on the Oliver/Laurel relationship. So when Emily Bett Rickards showed up as Felicity and had great chemistry with Stephen Amell it was easy for me to start shipping Oliver with Felicity.

[BeautifulFlower]

As I've seen someone say on Twitter, why is it people can accept Alfred being Bruce's legal guardian;however, they can't accept Joe being Barry's? Hm? Why do people believe Barry was automatically adopted once he came to live with Joe? Have they literally never heard of legal guardians? Have they never had school forms ask "who is your parent/legal guardian"?

I know they threw the term adopted around in the show, but let's not ignore canon.

1. Barry was 11 (preteen) when he moved in, and already had a crush on Iris.

2. Barry has ran away from Joe's house. This was shown in flashbacks. He kept running away to his father. Barry loves his father so much. Do people actually believe Barry would be okay with Joe adopting him? Joe will forever be a father figure to him. in my opinion, Barry could never let anyone else be his dad.

3. Joe knew Barry had a crush on Iris. Why would he jeopardize Barry's chances of being with Iris?

4. Joe has a home video of Barry and Iris as kids pretending to get married. Neither blood siblings, adopted siblings, nor foster siblings would ever do this. What siblings would get pretend married to each other? That's disgusting and no parent would allow that.

Now some real life logic.

As I've seen on twitter, if Barry was adopted, he wouldn't have been able to get married. Adopted siblings can't marry.

 

Looking back at what I wrote, that's why I know some people know WA isn't incest deep down They're just using this excuse as to demean the ship ad make their ship look better. As well as a "reason" for disliking the ship.

[adora721]

If the writers or producers actually cared, they could defang that incest excuse with a flick of their collective wrists and one, simple line of dialogue. Why they don't is the real mystery.

Edited July 25, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

10 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I do think it’s important for us to realize that Grant never said WestAllen was off the table. They were playing with the timeline of *when* to make it happen, not *if* it should happen. 

 

Yep; I appreciate that Grant pushed for Barry & Iris, but clearly it had support from the showrunners, audience, etc.

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, adora721 said:

If the writers or producers actually cared, they could defang that incest excuse with a flick of their collective wrists and one, simple line of dialogue. Why they don't is the real mystery.

If the writers actually cared about being accurate about other things on this show, I’d be right there with you. However, within the full context of this show, I don’t think it’s as big a deal as some people do. Again, in order to believe they are incest, you have to leave your brain at the door.

What lines would you like them to add so that some people will stop calling them incest? Do you actually think it would change anything? I’m just curious. 

[Starry]

I would like for them to stop referring to Joe as Barry's dad in their scripts. Not because of perceived incest but because it annoys me, lol. The incest claims are wrong. Period. It's also painfully transparent that haters ascribe incest to the relationship but not to the characters. This is not a situation where fans are shipping characters with a siblings-like bond who have no romantic interest in each other. Barry and Iris themselves want the relationship. Haters skip over this important detail so they can demonize Westallen but still view Barry as pure enough to ship him with their faves, lol. And let's not forget how quick they are to yell INCEST when it comes to two not-related people dating but ignore the rape-y undertones in the two SB kisses.

[DearEvette]

15 hours ago, paulvdb said:

I'm not a comics reader so I don't particularly care for comics canon and don't need tv producers to follow it to the letter. Besides, it's my understanding that comics canon is rebooted on a somewhat regular basis, so there isn't even a single comics canon. So I would happily ship Barry with someone other than Iris if there had been another actress who had better chemistry with Grant Gustin. But I didn't see that with Caitlin or Patty. And I liked Linda as a friend of Iris but wasn't invested in her romance with Barry. The only reason why I didn't ship Barry/Iris from the start was that I liked the Iris/Eddie relationship.

I think the main difference between Arrow and The Flash is that The Flash had better writing and a better actress for the comics canon love interest, It's hard to get invested in a relationship when the main character cheated on his love interest with her sister. And Katie Cassidy never managed to sell me on the Oliver/Laurel relationship. So when Emily Bett Rickards showed up as Felicity and had great chemistry with Stephen Amell it was easy for me to start shipping Oliver with Felicity.

 

The Iris/Eddie relationship was chock full o' chemistry.  And it is a textbook example of why you don't allow your 'destined endgame'  characters tease around romantically with other people before your get them together.  There is the real possibility that putting them in romantic situations with other people while at the same time determinedly downplaying/ignoring  any romantic feelings between the two of them will backfire.  If one of them  inadvertently creates a great connection with another character you start to build expectations with the audience.  And it is doubly problematic if one of the characters in the destined relationship isn't embraced by the audience so the audience starts to  actively root against the destined ship.

WRT to Laurel v. Felicity -- I remain wedded to the unpopular opinion that Laurel's problems were not Katie Cassidy's fault.  I lay the blame solely at the feet of the writers.  In Laurel they created an angsty, humorless, poorly written  character that they assumed they could load her in the chamber until they needed to pull the trigger on her place as BC and Arrow's love interest.  In the meantime, they created a fanboy's wet dream in Felicity.  A sexy geek, complete with quippy one-liners and a quirky style.  It is super easy to root for a character like that.  And it is super easy for a character like that to create fun chemistry with Oliver.  Her 'adorkable' style was a great contrast with Oliver's dour demeanour and they played with that.  I actually liked Felicity in S1 one Arrow.  It wasn't until they really doubled down on her being such a special 'it' girl that my feelings turned to exasperation and then to dislike.  My dislike of the character was solidified when they had her show up on The Flash for a fun night of trivia at a friggin' coffee shop in a barely there little black dress complete with the slo-mo glamour girl camera pan up.   Really who does that?

I still maintain that the Flash tried to do with Patty what Arrow did with Felicity and created this 'fun, adorable, quirky' character to act as a spoiler for the main relationship.  I also think Flash WA fans lucked out because 1) that got nipped in the bud by the second-half of the season so it never could fully root and 2) Barry and Patty just didn't quite have the chemistry they needed to have in order to overshadow West-Allen.

Edited July 26, 2018 by DearEvette

[Velocity23]

I am not sure what was the deal with Shantel van Santen except of her mentioning that her exist was basically rushed because she would not commit just to the Flash. Which unless promise an actress a regular position is just insane to expect from EPs.

 

Katie Cassidy is a special case. Because she did not lose only the love interest role but also the Black canary role. And as much as people might dislike Felicity she was not the one responsible that Katie Cassidy lost the role of the Black Canary. Heck they even did portray the GA/BC relationship in s2 with all its icky undertones. Then there is also the fact that really ugly things were going down BTS during s2 of Arrow in regards to the mantle of Black Canary (an actual lawsuit by Katie Cassidy). But even that didnt help with another actress now portraying the role of Black Canary. And WB/DC signed off on those things. 

I think people do a great disservice to Candice when they compare the situation Candice faced with Katie Cassidy. Especially since DP and KC were both the favorites of Andrew Kreisberg. And were both represented by his wife. And its not a secret that KC started to get less and less of a story and screentime once Kreisberg left. 

Katie Cassidy might have returned to the show but her role is basically of a wishy washy character who rarely gets to do much in episodes and that will continue doing villainous things. 

[adora721]

13 hours ago, Kate45 said:

What lines would you like them to add so that some people will stop calling them incest? Do you actually think it would change anything? I’m just curious. 

I don't expect clarification to stop all haters from hating or calling it incest; some people will continue to hate just because WA exists. However, the writers refusal to clarify the legal situation of Joe's guardianship and continued reiteration of a sibling-like/father-son like relationship continues to give the incest screamers a leg to stand on.

Just like Grant's confession, at SDCC 2018, that he pushed for WestAllen and was against Snowbarry gave the SB fandom a gut punch, a clarification would do the same to the incest segment of the fandom. Yes, there are still SB shippers and deniers even after what GG said; they've found a way to twist what he said, but they cannot deny the reality of GG saying it on video to the press for all the world to see and hear. It's definitely taken a lot of wind out of the SB sails.

Like others have said, the writers need to stop putting it into the script and stop putting it on the back of the DVDs that Barry was "adopted". At this point, it feels like continuing to not clarify is a holdover from the Kreisberg era that should have ended long before he was fired.

So, I'm not a creative writer, but here's a stab at dialogue for S5:

Cisco: So, was it cool growing up a speedster? Bet you smoked all the kids in gym class.

Nora: Um.. cool? Not so much. I mean there was the bullying and the teasing.

Barry: Wait, somebody bullied you?

Iris: Oh no! I'm so sorry baby. You know that happened to your dad, too.

Nora: Really? The worst part was the kids calling me, "Nora IncestAllen".

Cisco: Say what now?!

Caitlin: Why would they say that?

Nora: I guess some of the parents found out how, you know, you and dad grew up together raised by grandpa, and they thought it was a little too “Jaime and Cersei”.

Cisco: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Using “Games of Thrones” against you. That is all sorts of wrong!

Joe: But they're clearly not related! I hope you told them that I never adopted your dad; I mean, you understood that right, Nora?

Nora: Yeah, Pop Pop. But, you know, try explaining that to third graders. Whatever! I got past it. Plus, there were worse things...

Barry: What worse things?

Nora: Doesn't matter. Anybody want a Big Belly Burger? I am starved!

Edited July 26, 2018 by adora721

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I don't expect clarification to stop all haters from hating or calling it incest; some people will continue to hate just because WA exists. However, the writers refusal to clarify the legal situation of Joe's guardianship and continued reiteration of a sibling-like/father-son like relationship continues to give the incest screamers a leg to stand on.

Just like Grant's confession, at SDCC 2018, that he pushed for WestAllen and was against Snowbarry gave the SB fandom a gut punch, a clarification would do the same to the incest segment of the fandom. Yes, there are still SB shippers and deniers even after what GG said; they've found a way to twist what he said, but they cannot deny the reality of GG saying it on video to the press for all the world to see and hear. It's definitely taken a lot of wind out of the SB sails.

Like others have said, the writers need to stop putting it into the script and stop putting it on the back of the DVDs that Barry was "adopted". At this point, it feels like continuing to not clarify is a holdover from the Kreisberg era that should have ended long before he was fired.

So, I'm not a creative writer, but here's a stab at dialogue for S5:

Cisco: So, was it cool growing up a speedster? Bet you smoked all the kids in gym class.

Nora: Um.. cool? Not so much. I mean there was the bullying and the teasing.

Barry: Wait, somebody bullied you?

Iris: Oh no! I'm so sorry baby. You know that happened to your dad, too.

Nora: Really? The worst part was the kids calling me, "Nora IncestAllen".

Cisco: Say what now?!

Caitlin: Why would they say that?

Nora: I guess some of the parents found out how, you know, you and dad grew up together raised by grandpa, and they thought it was a little too “Jaime and Cersei”.

Cisco: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Using “Games of Thrones” against you. That is all sorts of wrong!

Joe: But they're clearly not related! I hope you told them that I never adopted your dad; I mean, you understood that right, Nora?

Nora: Yeah, Pop Pop. But, you know, try explaining that to third graders. Whatever! I got past it. Plus, there were worse things...

Barry: What worse things?

Nora: Doesn't matter. Anybody want a Big Belly Burger? I am starved!

LOL! I like your dialogue! It’s cute!

I don’t think they would say that since no one has called them siblings of the people on the show. Yes, Patty said that Barry was “like Iris’ brother”, and Iris said they were “like brother and sister, but not actually brother and sister”. I still don’t consider that being the same as someone actually believing they are related or siblings (like the twins/siblings in your Jaime and Cersei example). 

I do think it’s funny that some members of fandom continue to harp on this incest thing since it has never been couched that way on the show. Literally no acts like the relationship is abnormal, and no one questions it’s legitimacy on the show. Again, they don’t think this is true or else they wouldn’t want Barry anywhere near their fave. As you mentioned, it’s only used against the relationship not the characters. It’s not about the dialogue so much IMO, since people call KillerVibe incest and no one has suggested they are siblings on the show. I don’t want to call these incest claimers stupid, but they don’t know the difference between step-siblings, half-siblings, etc. 

While I totally agree that the show should have been clear that Joe was Barry’s legal guardian, I never thought anything else was the case. Probably because I have a decent knowledge of family law and guardianship rules. That’s the other thing, these people have had this explained to them by many different people (including Grant himself) and they harp on about it. Nothing will likely change that. The show does reiterate a father-son relationship, but I don’t think they reiterate a sibling relationship. I’ve always considered them to be separate relationships.

Also, I have very low expectations from writers who don’t know the difference between a Doctor of Philosophy and a Doctor of Medicine. So, the idea that they would know the law/policies of guardianship seems unlikely to me. That’s always been my take.  

One note: writers/EPs don’t control or approve DVD promotional content. That’s a different group entirely. It doesn’t make it right, but I do think we should assign blame appropriately.  

[Trini]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The Iris/Eddie relationship was chock full o' chemistry.  And it is a textbook example of why you don't allow your 'destined endgame'  characters tease around romantically with other people before your get them together.  There is the real possibility that putting them in romantic situations with other people while at the same time determinedly downplaying/ignoring  any romantic feelings between the two of them will backfire.  If one of them  inadvertently creates a great connection with another character you start to build expectations with the audience.  And it is doubly problematic if one of the characters in the destined relationship isn't embraced by the audience so the audience starts to  actively root against the destined ship.

I don't necessarily agree. It depends on the writing/setup for me. Sometimes 'pre-endgame' relationships can be a fun/interesting diversion, that can lead the 'destined' couple back to each other. However, I hate it when shows use them just to prolong the drama, or they make the main characters look bad. (One particular show - which had an even stronger "One True Love" setup than this show - had the main couple ready and willing to progress their relationship at the end of Season 2, but then added new love interests for Season 3. Obvious, temporary 'ship stalls. Then related to these new pairings, the main characters ended up in situations that either made them act like terrible people, or act out of character. It was dumb.)

I don't think short-term love interests have to be bad for the 'end game' couple; even if the audience likes them (I did like Eddie; he was underused). The writers just have to make sure to give reasons/reminders to root for the 'end game'.
 

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I still maintain that the Flash tried to do with Patty what Arrow did with Felicity and created this 'fun, adorable, quirky' character to act as a spoiler for the main relationship.  I also think Flash WA fans lucked out because 1) that got nipped in the bud by the second-half of the season so it never could fully root and 2) Barry and Patty just didn't quite have the chemistry they needed to have in order to overshadow West-Allen.

LOL - The casting description literally had "Felicity" in it.   But I think this was when Iris fans really started rallying.

 

8 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Katie Cassidy is a special case. Because she did not lose only the love interest role but also the Black canary role. And as much as people might dislike Felicity she was not the one responsible that Katie Cassidy lost the role of the Black Canary. Heck they even did portray the GA/BC relationship in s2 with all its icky undertones. Then there is also the fact that really ugly things were going down BTS during s2 of Arrow in regards to the mantle of Black Canary (an actual lawsuit by Katie Cassidy). But even that didnt help with another actress now portraying the role of Black Canary. And WB/DC signed off on those things. 

I hadn't heard about that. Do you have a source?

[wingster55]

On 7/25/2018 at 12:19 AM, Katsullivan said:

They literally had to fire the original Smallville showrunners for the new showrunners to break up Clana and make Clois.

And yet the replacements for Al & Miles had them breakup not through mutual understanding, but because Lana was a literal walking kryptonite. 

 

10 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The Iris/Eddie relationship was chock full o' chemistry. 

I disagree. I don't want to point fingers...but one of the actors wasn't matching the others...passion for lack of a better word. 

 

5 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Yes, Patty said that Barry was “like Iris’ brother”

That was in one of her last eps right? I always took that to mean she really didn't know Barry. Even Cisco knew from a comatose Barry that Iris was his....something. 

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, wingster55 said:

That was in one of her last eps right? I always took that to mean she really didn't know Barry. Even Cisco knew from a comatose Barry that Iris was his....something. 

Yeah, it was in 2x10. You totally just gave me a totally different perspective. Especially since Barry had recently come to the realization that he didn’t know her that well in 2x09. I wonder if that was supposed to be what we got from her saying that? Really good point! Thanks for that. 

[Starry]

Patty didn't know Barry at all so that was my headcanon as well. But considering we weren't getting WA scenes at the time, I believe the writers were just being shady.

I don't mind temporary relationships when they serve the main couple. Eddie/Iris was an example of that until the show tried to retcon it in s2 and Eddie got promoted to Iris' fiancé and love of her life. I think the only ship-stalling romance I resented was Spallen because WA stopped existing in any way, shape or form during the Patty era and because Patty's personality made me cringe. I didn't find her fun and adorkable, I thought she was childish and try-hard.

I also believe giving Iris a season-long temporary LI as opposed to giving Barry one worked in WA favor. People watch the show through Barry's POV because he's the protagonist. They care about him achieving his happiness. If they saw him happy with Caitlin or Patty before he could get his endgame with a black woman the hate thrown at Iris/Candice would be even worse. Viewers may say they like Iris/Eddie but very few people were genuinely invested in that relationship, which makes sense since Iris/Eddie played out mostly off screen and was there to make Barry angst. And that's leaving out the fact that most Iris/Eddie fans ship Barry with someone else and use Eddie as a way to push Iris out of the main LI role.

 

21 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I think people do a great disservice to Candice when they compare the situation Candice faced with Katie Cassidy. Especially since DP and KC were both the favorites of Andrew Kreisberg. And were both represented by his wife. And its not a secret that KC started to get less and less of a story and screentime once Kreisberg left.

I didn't know about the bolded. That's interesting..

When did Kreisberg leave Arrow? Was it after s2 to focus on Flash? Because Laurel started losing her screen time as early as s2.

I too think Candice's situation is not comparable to Katie. The Arrow writers tried with Katie. The Flash showrunners were quick in presenting an alternative in Caitlin/DP/SB.

[Velocity23]

Kreisberg officialy stopped being involved in Arrow after s3. S3 was labeled as being one that focused on Laurel and Willa. Its the season they started Laurels journey as the Black Canary and they basically sidelined Oliver for 3 episodes to make it happen. And her trying to have LL take revenge for her her sisters death,

 

 

And during SDCC 2015, the one where Kreisberg wasnt really part of Arrow anymore. His wife was following KC to events at SDCC ...

[wingster55]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

But considering we weren't getting WA scenes at the time, I believe the writers were just being shady.

At the time not much, but two episodes later we find out that they're married on another Earth. 

We actually got a bit in those episodes actually. Iris reluctance to talk to Patty (jealousy?), their talk in that episode, and her getting hurt in the next episode (Barry being too slow to save her is his worst fear I think). 

39 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Kreisberg officialy stopped being involved in Arrow after s3. S3 was labeled as being one that focused on Laurel and Willa. Its the season they started Laurels journey as the Black Canary and they basically sidelined Oliver for 3 episodes to make it happen. And her trying to have LL take revenge for her her sisters death,

 

Laurel may not have had a lot of screentime in season 2 but she had a near season-long arc with her downfall and alcoholism. It wasn't always written well, but it was there. Only Roy got something similar (besides Oliver). 

Season 3 was Thea's season more than anyone else. 

[Trini]

Quotes from Hartley Sawyer about another squashed romance:

Quote

"People always thought it was going to be a romance, because every year Caitlin dates the new white guy on the show," Sawyer said.

...

So when Dibny arrived at STAR Labs, it's easy to see why some fans figured he'd be next. "Immediately all of us talked about that," Sawyer revealed. "And we're like 'No' – she [Panabaker] put the kibosh on it quicker than anybody. She was like, 'No, I'm not doing that'."

Sawyer agreed: "It would not have been a good choice. I think it's really cool that they're just friendly, and we're gonna develop that more. I think they care about each other, but in that platonic way."

Well, I'm glad they broke the pattern. But I'm not opposed to Caitlin having a love interest.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

"People always thought it was going to be a romance, because every year Caitlin dates the new white guy on the show," Sawyer said.

SCREAMS! ?????????

The shade!!! 

[Katsullivan]

On 26/07/2018 at 8:02 AM, DearEvette said:

The Iris/Eddie relationship was chock full o' chemistry. 

It was? I know chemistry is subjective but I clearly remember a scene when they're in bed together and she's straddling him, and his arms were just lying flat by his sides, no attempt whatsoever to touch her on her waist or her arms. It just seemed so weirdly passive like CP was doing all the work.

I thought they had serviceable chemistry but nothing to blow my mind away. It also didn't help that about 99% of their kissing/hugging was shown from Barry's viewpoint and he didn't find them sexy or sweet but teeth-grindingly painful.

 

16 hours ago, Starry said:

I also believe giving Iris a season-long temporary LI as opposed to giving Barry one worked in WA favor. People watch the show through Barry's POV because he's the protagonist. They care about him achieving his happiness. If they saw him happy with Caitlin or Patty before he could get his endgame with a black woman the hate thrown at Iris/Candice would be even worse. Viewers may say they like Iris/Eddie but very few people were genuinely invested in that relationship, which makes sense since Iris/Eddie played out mostly off screen and was there to make Barry angst. And that's leaving out the fact that most Iris/Eddie fans ship Barry with someone else and use Eddie as a way to push Iris out of the main LI role.

 

This. Eddie was Westallen's prop. He existed to "confirm" Iris's attractiveness and desirability and give Barry something to fight for. And we didn't see much of Eddie/Iris outside Barry's POV to root for anything. I literally cannot think of any Eddie/Iris scene that was not in Barry's PoV, or was not about Barry in someway. Unless you're counting the scenes where it was about "The Streak". 

16 hours ago, Starry said:

I think the only ship-stalling romance I resented was Spallen because WA stopped existing in any way, shape or form during the Patty era

Iris/Westallen was this close to being pushed off the show in 2A. To be a fly on the wall behind the scenes during that time.

 

 

16 hours ago, Starry said:

Patty didn't know Barry at all so that was my headcanon as well. But considering we weren't getting WA scenes at the time, I believe the writers were just being shady.

 

Whenever you wonder if the writers / showrunners / Danielle Panabacker are being shady about Iris/Westallen/Candice, always, always trust your worst instincts. Because they are never wrong. I can personally confirm that almost all my worst suspicions ended up being confirmed. I say almost because the show is not over yet. 

[Starry]

Were they seriously considering a Caitlin + Ralph pairing?

 

20 hours ago, wingster55 said:

At the time not much, but two episodes later we find out that they're married on another Earth. 

We actually got a bit in those episodes actually. Iris reluctance to talk to Patty (jealousy?), their talk in that episode, and her getting hurt in the next episode (Barry being too slow to save her is his worst fear I think).

I was thinking more about the previous episodes. The Earth-2 episode was great but happened later in the season, when Patty was already off the show.

The other instances you mentioned are bread crumbs. If you weren't a WA fan I doubt you would see Iris' reluctance to talk to Patty and Barry's fear when Iris got hurt as shippy moments.

 

11 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

This. Eddie was Westallen's prop. He existed to "confirm" Iris's attractiveness and desirability and give Barry something to fight for. And we didn't see much of Eddie/Iris outside Barry's POV to root for anything. I literally cannot think of any Eddie/Iris scene that was not in Barry's PoV, or was not about Barry in someway. Unless you're counting the scenes where it was about "The Streak".

Me neither. The closest they got was the "Screw the future" line in the s1 finale. I suspect that at the time they had already decided they were going to ice WA and bring on Patty.

Think about the Iris/Eddie relationship milestones. First kiss? Off screen. First date? Off screen. Asking to move in together? About Barry. Moving in together? About Barry again. We didn't get one scene of them in the house they shared. Meeting the parents for the first time? Off screen and from Barry's POV. Proposal? Interrupted and overshadowed by the Iris West-Allen byline, by Joe claiming that Iris would one day wake up and realize she married the wrong guy, by the flashback where Iris calls agreeing to a date with Eddie one of those dumb things she does when Barry is not around. Barry and Iris went on "dates" alone. Every time Iris and Eddie were shown on a date, Barry was there.

It would have been hard for me to root for Iris/Eddie even if they had mindblowing chemistry. The fact that their chemistry was just passable didn't help.

[Katsullivan]

37 minutes ago, Starry said:

The other instances you mentioned are bread crumbs. If you weren't a WA fan I doubt you would see Iris' reluctance to talk to Patty and Barry's fear when Iris got hurt as shippy moments.

 

Exactly. Compare Iris's reluctance to talk to Patty to her everything with Linda Park. Night and day. 

They deleted the scene where Barry visits Iris in the hospital after her accident so no, Iris getting hurt was not a shippy moment. 

 

40 minutes ago, Starry said:

ere they seriously considering a Caitlin + Ralph pairing?

I believe it. I also believe that DP shut it down because Ralph was being considered for a permanent status and it's one thing to have a character played by a temporary guest star validating her desirability, it's another thing to "pair up" Caitlin permanently with a recurring character. 

[Kate45]

11 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Exactly. Compare Iris's reluctance to talk to Patty to her everything with Linda Park. Night and day. 

They deleted the scene where Barry visits Iris in the hospital after her accident so no, Iris getting hurt was not a shippy moment. 

 

I believe it. I also believe that DP shut it down because Ralph was being considered for a permanent status and it's one thing to have a character played by a temporary guest star validating her desirability, it's another thing to "pair up" Caitlin permanently with a recurring character. 

That’s funny, because I’m almost postsive he had more screen time in season 4 than she did ?. 

“Jay” was a series regular, as was Julian. The only one who wasn’t a regular wood have been Ronnie. Also, I’m totally convinced that the producers just didn’t want to start a Caitlin/Ralph romance. The actors didn’t stop it from happening. Danielle said that she refused to do a romance in season 3, and well, we see what happened there. If they wanted to do a romance for her, they would have. Honestly, I’ll be shocked if they don’t get together at some point in season 5. I hope they shock me!