Relationships: Speed Dating

[Trini]

With Barry being lost in the speed force for months after they got engaged, abducted to Earth-X after their (interrupted) wedding, and then him being in prison after they were married, I can see why Iris craves quality time! I hope they get it; onscreen and even offscreen.
 

On 3/7/2018 at 7:43 PM, iknowyouknow said:

I still love both Caitlin and Cisco too and have occasionally wondered if they're eventually planning to put them together.

I don't think so; but if the show runs long enough, who knows? My only problem with pairing up Caitlin with another team member is that they still haven't addressed her murderous actions in Season 3.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Trini

[Trini]

[johntfs]

On 3/8/2018 at 8:38 PM, Trini said:

My only problem with pairing up Caitlin with another team member is that they still haven't addressed her murderous actions in Season 3.

Figure part of that is that those actions weren't Caitlin's but those of her alter ego, Killer Frost.  Meanwhile, Killer Frost seems to be saner and less evil so they've all decided to just leave well enough alone.

[Kate45]

On 3/8/2018 at 9:38 PM, Trini said:

I don't think so; but if the show runs long enough, who knows? My only problem with pairing up Caitlin with another team member is that they still haven't addressed her murderous actions in Season 3.

Sadly, I just don't think the show will ever address this piece. Actually, I am less worried about them not addressing her murderous actions and more about the fact that the show continues to gloss over her meta human selling past and her keeping lack of control over her murderous side as a secret. But, as usual, they don't address any of these issues. I truly don't think they have the inspiration to write her well, and most of the fandom seems to care very little about her as a character. Even her stans seem to love her primarily because they hate Iris so much, and not because they actually love Caitlin. I like Caitlin, but I don't think she has that many actual fans. Most of her "fans" just want to see her with Barry. At least that is the trend that I have noticed. 

[Trini]

[Katsullivan]

I'm going down the official twitter feed and it's gloriously full of Iris and Westallen goodness. 

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

I'm going down the official twitter feed and it's gloriously full of Iris and Westallen goodness. 

It has become much more supportive of Iris and WestAllen since AJK's firing. Makes me wonder if he or one of his minions were approving or denying the content on the page.

Of course, with these changes, the haters are out in full-force. Win some and lose some.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Kate45

[ruby24]

Still waiting on that Barry/Iris love scene. 

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Of course, with these changes, the haters are out in full-force. Win some and lose some.

I've always found the haters a reliable measure of how well or badly Iris is being treated on this show. 

[phoenics]

On 3/14/2018 at 4:18 PM, ruby24 said:

Still waiting on that Barry/Iris love scene. 

I'm kinda praying we will finally get one now that AK is gone?  Or at least something better leading up to a love scene.  I no longer buy the "kids" argument for why they haven't given us a love scene - or at least another makeout scene.

That kiss Barry laid on Iris in 4x15 was SOOOOOO good - more of that please.

Edited March 19, 2018 by phoenics

[phoenics]

On 3/14/2018 at 7:18 PM, Katsullivan said:

I've always found the haters a reliable measure of how well or badly Iris is being treated on this show. 

*snicker*  If they're mad, it's good for Iris, ha ha.  If they're happy, then she's either sidelined or treated poorly some other kind of way.  It's really sad that you can tell this from their reactions.

[adora721]

On 12/31/2017 at 9:24 AM, doram said:

And to make her even more sacred, she's not even really Killer Frost, is she? She's never actually killed anyone. 

New person here; hi.

Killer Frost did kill Hunter Zolomon as the Black Flash.

[adora721]

On 3/11/2018 at 7:25 PM, Kate45 said:

Sadly, I just don't think the show will ever address this piece. Actually, I am less worried about them not addressing her murderous actions and more about the fact that the show continues to gloss over her meta human selling past and her keeping lack of control over her murderous side as a secret. But, as usual, they don't address any of these issues. I truly don't think they have the inspiration to write her well, and most of the fandom seems to care very little about her as a character. Even her stans seem to love her primarily because they hate Iris so much, and not because they actually love Caitlin. I like Caitlin, but I don't think she has that many actual fans. Most of her "fans" just want to see her with Barry. At least that is the trend that I have noticed. 

The most glaring thing about the lack of apology is that Caitlin apologized to Cisco and Barry (kinda in the S3 finale) and to Joe (in the S4 premiere). However, neither Caitlin nor KF has apologized to the two Black women she tried to harm. If KF and Caitlin are separate, why did the writers have Caitlin apologize if she wasn't culpable? And the apologies were very vague. "Sorry about HR", to Cisco and Barry. Not ,"Sorry that I tried to kill you and stab you". Or how about, "Sorry I took HR to his death". And the apology to Joe made little sense since it was Cecile she kidnapped and threatened to murder. Joe is not the representative of all the Black people on the show. Why not apologize to Cecile, too? Why not apologize to Iris in the "Girl's Night Out" episode? Until a genuine apology is given to both women, I will never believe Caitlin nor Killer Frost is a safe person to have on the team.

Edited March 22, 2018 by adora721

[Featherhat]

I think the writers would have to be interested in sorting out the mess that is the Caitlin/Killer Frost connection once and for all for her to apologise and/or integrate/separate them and they don't seem to be at the moment. 

[Kate45]

8 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I think the writers would have to be interested in sorting out the mess that is the Caitlin/Killer Frost connection once and for all for her to apologise and/or integrate/separate them and they don't seem to be at the moment. 

I think the writers messed up by not having clearly set guidelines for this duality from the beginning. It's pretty clear to me that they never really processed what would happen if she had these powers or why they happened. Why would she suddenly have a split personality without any evidence that she had this as an issue before? Even Magenta had a history of split personalities and then one of them had powers. It has been lazy writing from the start. 

On 3/7/2018 at 7:43 PM, iknowyouknow said:

I know there's a general consensus that the show has gone downhill, but I still love it: the fascinating (albeit sometimes absurd!) ideas about time travel, multiple universes, etc., nearly all the characters and actors, the look and feel of it, the fact that this is one of the only superhero shows that, despite getting dark at points, still usually remembers that comic book shows can and should be fun and lets itself be sweet, silly, joyful and energetic rather than the self-serious funereal broodfest we get from so many other superhero shows.

I agree with you. I still really like this show, I'm just tired of this Ralph mess. I hope he leaves after this season. He can just decide that he doesn't want be a hero and move away to Keystone in season 5. Also, because Ralph is here, other characters are suffering with little screen time and development for the lack of development but lots of screen time for Ralph. 

[adora721]

11 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I think the writers would have to be interested in sorting out the mess that is the Caitlin/Killer Frost connection once and for all for her to apologise and/or integrate/separate them and they don't seem to be at the moment. 

See, I don't think it's an issue of sorting out who is who or their connection. It's now a fact that both Killer Frost and Caitlin are a part of the team. We even had Killer Frost go give Ralph a pep talk (full of lies about how she only kidnapped and stabbed her friends). This showed that KF is capable of caring about someone else. The fact that Killer Frost hasn't shown concern enough for Iris or Cecile to say the words, "I'm sorry I hurt you." is a testament to the fact that the writers don't think those women are owed an apology.

I had an ex-BF who hated to apologize when he messed up. When I asked him about that, he claimed that his actions should be more important than saying words. And while that is often true, there is great power in those words. Those words indicate contrition, awareness that you've harmed or hurt someone, and implies an intent to do better going forward. And yes, as women, we need to hear the words. Actions and words work together in most instances. 

So, we've seen KF reach out to Ralph, someone who's only been on Team Flash for less than a season/a year. However, KF doesn't reach out to Iris, who's been on the team since S2, who stood up for her against Amunet, who made her alternate personality a maid of honor, and befriended KF despite her part in Savitar's murder plot?  This sounds like a deliberate decision to avoid having these characters (Caitlin/KF) show remorse to the female lead character, Iris, and Cecile. How is that feminist? How is that socially progressive? How is that even kind?

[adora721]

2 hours ago, doram said:

Is Ralph the cause or the symptom? Is the problem his presence or is his presence the natural result of the writers preferring to write for a particular type of character over the others?

I'm beginning to wonder if all this attention on Ralph isn't a prelude to making him a permanent addition to the cast, especially if Tom C. or someone else leaves ( or dies) at the end of the season. Have we seen such an intense focus on a guest star like what's happening with Ralph? Not even Julian had this much screen time. I know Ralph is Barry's good friend in the comics and Ralph has a sweetheart, too. I just wonder if this is all a preparation for Dibny to stay.

[johntfs]

Let's consider that we had to wait until last episode to get Iris's reaction and thoughts about the events of that previous season.  Maybe we'll get KF apologizing later on (though I won't hold my breath).

[adora721]

4 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Let's consider that we had to wait until last episode to get Iris's reaction and thoughts about the events of that previous season.  Maybe we'll get KF apologizing later on (though I won't hold my breath).

I don't think that will happen. In order to really sell this insta-friendship between Caitlin and Iris, an apology would have really helped. I suspect there are two reasons for said friendship: 1) Make Caitlin matter more to Iris so that if something bad happens to Cait, it will have a more emotional impact on Iris, the lead female. 2) Attempt to fix a glaring lack of female friendship between the two women working on Team Flash. 

I actually think Iris had a more believable "friendship" with Felicity than with Cait. Now, I can only imagine KF apologizing if she should "die".

[johntfs]

11 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I actually think Iris had a more believable "friendship" with Felicity than with Cait.

In truth Iris has a better developed "friendship" with Killer Frost than with Caitlin.  Caitlin seems more like a "work acquaintance" than anything else.  I can easily see Iris and Felicity exchanging daily e-mails.  It's hard to imagine Iris and Caitlin ever even going to each others' homes once in a while.  Iris asking Caitlin to be her maid/matron of honor felt almost like Iris wanted to save money on a wedding planner more than get a best friend.

[Starry]

I think Felicity should have been the MOH. The fact that a character from another show would have been the most sensible choice speaks volume. I've seen more genuine friendship and bonding moments between Iris and Felicity in the crossover than between Iris and Caitlin in four seasons. I hope they rectify this soon but I'm not holding my breath.

On 23/3/2018 at 10:01 PM, adora721 said:

The fact that Killer Frost hasn't shown concern enough for Iris or Cecile to say the words, "I'm sorry I hurt you." is a testament to the fact that the writers don't think those women are owed an apology.

Caitlin apologized to Joe about what she/KF did to Cecile. It wasn't a direct apology but it was an acknowledgement. Iris is the only one who wasn't owed an apology in the writers' eyes. And unlike Cecile and Felicity, Iris was Frost's biggest supporter in the Girls Night Out episode. I'm not saying she should have abandoned Caitlin because a leader never abandons his team members but it was overkill.

[wingster55]

I think it actually should have been Linda. Yes, she's been off-screen for two plus years, but she is the only women who's supported/complimented Iris since then.  Not Caitlin, not Felicity, not Kara etc 

[adora721]

On 3/26/2018 at 4:19 AM, Starry said:

Caitlin apologized to Joe about what she/KF did to Cecile. It wasn't a direct apology but it was an acknowledgement. Iris is the only one who wasn't owed an apology in the writers' eyes. And unlike Cecile and Felicity, Iris was Frost's biggest supporter in the Girls Night Out episode. I'm not saying she should have abandoned Caitlin because a leader never abandons his team members but it was overkill.

Yes, I recall that. It was very insulting to use Joe as the stand-in (so to speak) for Cecile or for all the Black members of the team perhaps.  I guess Joe stands in for Iris, too, since she's his daughter. And notice that Cecile was still scared of KF during "Girl's Night Out", so that indirect apology must not have made an impact- quelle surprise!

What's worse is that Killer Frost also threatened to freeze Iris' arm in that same episode, too. And didn't apologize for the threat when it was all over. Some fans vilified Iris just for questioning Caitlin's sudden return to the team in 4x1. And yet KF can threaten to maim Iris and not a peep outta those same fans.

Edited March 28, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

About the fear that WestAllen could be replaced on the show: Even putting aside DC's investment, I don't think it's really possible at this point. I don't see how the show could with all the markers of an epic 'OTP' that they've given Barry & Iris up to now. Even if Candice -and therfore Iris- left the show, I would guess that they'd still write in reminders that Iris is Barry's True Love even in her absence. And Barry wouldn't be paired up with anyone else seriously; if at all.

I mean, I can't think of a show that dropped its OTP (that they've been building up since day 1) for another, midway through its run. Are there examples?*

*(I thought of Smallville, but one could argue that Lana was always going to be replaced by Lois at some point.)

[paulvdb]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I mean, I can't think of a show that dropped its OTP (that they've been building up since day 1) for another, midway through its run. Are there examples?*

Dawson and Joey on Dawson's Creek were the first (and so far only) couple I could think of.

[Katsullivan]

8 hours ago, Trini said:

I mean, I can't think of a show that dropped its OTP (that they've been building up since day 1) for another, midway through its run. Are there examples?*

 

Vampire Diaries -

Spoiler

from Stefan & Elena to Damon & Elena at the end of season 4, literally mid-way through its 8 season run.

Jane The Virgin -

Spoiler

Villadero in mid-season 3, and now it's Rafael x Jane.

Also if they kill Iris, they won't technically be dropping their OTP but to all intents and purposes, it will have the same effect. At this point, theonly way they can end Westallen is to kill her.

8 hours ago, Trini said:

*(I thought of Smallville, but one could argue that Lana was always going to be replaced by Lois at some point.)

I'd even argue that Smallville didn't end Clana. They made it so that Clark was settling for Lois because he couldn't have the woman he truly wanted. So it was Pyrrhic victory for Clois fans. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Katsullivan

[wingster55]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Jane The Virgin

Off-topic but not sure that one counts. I believe it was always the plan to do the thing that they did. 

[ruby24]

57 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Off-topic but not sure that one counts. I believe it was always the plan to do the thing that they did. 

I agree actually- Jane and Rafael were based on the characters from the telenovela, who were meant to end up together. Michael was an added character meant to create a love triangle so that the show's plot could be dragged out longer for the U.S. adaptation. It's kind of obvious to me that's what they intended.

[Kate45]

6 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I agree actually- Jane and Rafael were based on the characters from the telenovela, who were meant to end up together. Michael was an added character meant to create a love triangle so that the show's plot could be dragged out longer for the U.S. adaptation. It's kind of obvious to me that's what they intended.

Exactly. Jane/Raphael have always been the OTP, and Jane/Michael went on for far too long. 

[wingster55]

^ Well that I disagree with. Jane/Michael were the best. Highly preferable to Jane and Raf before the jump. I like the latter now when it's not just a fantasy (even if I still think Gina worked best with Brett)

Edited April 3, 2018 by wingster55

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, wingster55 said:

Off-topic but not sure that one counts. I believe it was always the plan to do the thing that they did. 

 

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I agree actually- Jane and Rafael were based on the characters from the telenovela, who were meant to end up together. Michael was an added character meant to create a love triangle so that the show's plot could be dragged out longer for the U.S. adaptation. It's kind of obvious to me that's what they intended.

 

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

Exactly. Jane/Raphael have always been the OTP, and Jane/Michael went on for far too long. 

That's exactly the point. 

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

That's exactly the point

Maybe I missed your point then? I thought you were saying that Jane/Michael became the OTP for the show. I have always believed that Jane/Raphael were the OTP and Jane/Michael were the mid game ship.

I knew that something would happen with Michael and Jane would end up with Raphael in the end. Now the show is possibly coming to an end, and Jane/Raphael are finally together. 

1 hour ago, wingster55 said:

^ Well that I disagree with. Jane/Michael were the best. Highly preferable to Jane and Raf before the jump. I like the latter now when it's not just a fantasy (even if I still think Gina worked best with Brett)

I know that people are pretty split on this topic. I have always loved Jane/Raphael, but I get the appeal of Jane/Michael.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Also if they kill Iris, they won't technically be dropping their OTP but to all intents and purposes, it will have the same effect. At this point, theonly way they can end Westallen is to kill her.

And even then there's 49-50 other Irises on other Earths (No Iris on Supergirl's Earth and the one on Earth 2 is married to another Barry Allen).  So, ending West-Allen requires both that Candice permanently leave the show and the character of Iris West is killed.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

Maybe I missed your point then? I thought you were saying that Jane/Michael became the OTP for the show. I have always believed that Jane/Raphael were the OTP and Jane/Michael were the mid game ship.

I knew that something would happen with Michael and Jane would end up with Raphael in the end. Now the show is possibly coming to an end, and Jane/Raphael are finally together. 

I just realized I'm mixing up discussions between here and Lightning Rod but I guess we're all having the same discussions. LOL.

Michael was set up as Jane's One True Love, the one she chose over Rafael, the one she would have had a happy ever after with no regrets if he hadn't died. Much like Lana and Clark in Smallville. And at the same time, another ship was always meant to be Endgame - JanexRafael and ClarkxLois and this was built into the DNA of the show. 

Just because the show always meant to circle back to JanexRafael and ClarkxLois doesn't make JanexMichael or ClarkxLana less OTP. Rafael fans and Lois fans may always have to live with the reality that their ship won by default but to all intents and purposes, their ships won. 

[phoenics]

I'd also add Gossip Girl - Chuck and Blair.  I don't think they were an endgame couple when the show began - the show noticed their chemistry and then switched in S1 away from Nate.  Nate then spent the rest of the series kinda drifting in terms of storyline.  

[Trini]

Thanks for the examples!

 

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

And even then there's 49-50 other Irises on other Earths (No Iris on Supergirl's Earth and the one on Earth 2 is married to another Barry Allen).  So, ending West-Allen requires both that Candice permanently leave the show and the character of Iris West is killed.

Yeah, maybe if Candice never appeared again that would be one thing; but I can see them making an effort to bring her back for a few guest appearances even if she left.

 

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Michael was set up as Jane's One True Love, the one she chose over Rafael, the one she would have had a happy ever after with no regrets if he hadn't died. Much like Lana and Clark in Smallville. And at the same time, another ship was always meant to be Endgame - JanexRafael and ClarkxLois and this was built into the DNA of the show. 

Just because the show always meant to circle back to JanexRafael and ClarkxLois doesn't make JanexMichael or ClarkxLana less OTP. Rafael fans and Lois fans may always have to live with the reality that their ship won by default but to all intents and purposes, their ships won. 

I kinda disagree; because it contradicts the 'one' in One True Pairing. Obviously those relationships are significant, but only one can be The One, right?

(On the other hand, not every show/lead character has a OTP setup/format, so maybe it doesn't apply?)

[Katsullivan]

44 minutes ago, Trini said:

I kinda disagree; because it contradicts the 'one' in One True Pairing. Obviously those relationships are significant, but only one can be The One, right?

 

Well not really. I mean, Lana is still Clark's Once and Michael is Jane's One. There were instances on both shows where Clark and Jane respectively had choices and repeatedly chose to be with Lana, Michael respectively until that choice was completely taken from them. 

Either way, these are clear examples of "building up an OTP and dropping it halfway through the story" being part of the show's DNA. 

[scarynikki12]

This thread is for Flash relationships.  If you want to discuss the relationships of other shows, take it to those forums. 

[Kate45]

55 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Well not really. I mean, Lana is still Clark's Once and Michael is Jane's One. There were instances on both shows where Clark and Jane respectively had choices and repeatedly chose to be with Lana, Michael respectively until that choice was completely taken from them. 

Bringing this back to The Flash, are you in essence saying that if presented with other options the character (example: Jane/Iris) still chooses to be with same character (example: Michael/Eddie) until it's no longer an option, then that's the OTP?

So, was Iris' actual OTP, Eddie? She chose to stay with Eddie in every instance until it was no longer an option. She did chose Barry over Scott. On the other hand, Barry has chosen to be with Iris whenever Iris was one of the options. So, Iris is Barry's OTP? But, she's not his?

I'm not saying that I agree with this idea, but I just want to make sure that I'm following your logic about this OTP situation. 

[Trini]

34 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

Bringing this back to The Flash, are you in essence saying that if presented with other options the character (example: Jane/Iris) still chooses to be with same character (example: Michael/Eddie) until it's no longer an option, then that's the OTP?

So, was Iris' actual OTP, Eddie? She chose to stay with Eddie in every instance until it was no longer an option. She did chose Barry over Scott. On the other hand, Barry has chosen to be with Iris whenever Iris was one of the options. So, Iris is Barry's OTP? But, she's not his?

I'm not saying that I agree with this idea, but I just want to make sure that I'm following your logic about this OTP situation. 

Even with that (iffy) logic, Iris only started dating Eddie after Barry fell into a coma, so.... And Iris chose Barry over Eddie (before he died) in at least one timeline, so the show has managed to play it both ways.

[Starry]

Iris was thinking about Barry (romantically) while she was with Eddie, as evidenced by her dialogue in 1x15 and 1x21. I'd also argue that Iris choosing Eddie wasn't going to be permanent since the newspaper byline read Iris West-Allen before Eddie killed himself and changed the timeline. There's also Joe talking about Iris "waking up one day and realizing she married the wrong guy".

I think I’m getting lost here. Are we using Jane x Michael as an example of an OTP that was dropped halfway through the series? Because they are not comparable to Westallen. Meaning that we can't assume Westallen can break up or Iris can get killed off based on what happened with Jane and Michael. The same applies to Clark x Lana. Michael and Lana dying/being written off was part of The Plan because in the original/source material Jane and Clark had their OTLs in Raphael and Lois. In the source material, the Flash comics, Iris is Barry's OTL.

Stelena is not a good example either. TVD is a show that has always been about the love triangle. It’s possible that the endgame wasn’t set in stone but Elena was always going to have a significant relationship with both Stefan and Damon. Delena is also canon in the books the series is based on.

I agree that at this point the only way they can end Westallen is to kill off Iris. I honestly stopped being worried about Caitlin after it became clear that the Snowbarry moments weren’t going to be received by Barry. Once Patty left, I had no doubts they were going to go ahead with Westallen. I hate that the showrunners immediately presented an alternative and that AJK and DP started pushing Snowbarry in the media before the show even premiered. I hate that Iris and Westallen disappeared during the Patty era but I stopped being threatened by the shadow of rival ships two years ago.

9 hours ago, phoenics said:

I'd also add Gossip Girl - Chuck and Blair.  I don't think they were an endgame couple when the show began - the show noticed their chemistry and then switched in S1 away from Nate.  Nate then spent the rest of the series kinda drifting in terms of storyline.  

Blair x Chuck on Gossip Girl is a good example of writers immediately switching to a different OTP when they notice something is not working. It didn't take the Gossip Girl showrunners four seasons to switch from Nate to Chuck. Like it didn't take the Arrow and Supergirl showrunners four seasons to switch from Laurel to Felicity and from James to Mon-El. If The Flash showrunners were going to drop Iris for Caitlin, s2 would have been the time.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Starry

[Katsullivan]

13 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

This thread is for Flash relationships.  If you want to discuss the relationships of other shows, take it to those forums. 

Are we allowed to draw comparisons to other relationships, and keep significant plot details in Spoiler tabs? 

 

6 hours ago, Starry said:

I think I’m getting lost here.

Spoiler

 

Are we using Jane x Michael as an example of an OTP that was dropped halfway through the series? Because they are not comparable to Westallen. Meaning that we can't assume Westallen can break up or Iris can get killed off based on what happened with Jane and Michael. The same applies to Clark x Lana. Michael and Lana dying/being written off was part of The Plan because in the original/source material Jane and Clark had their OTLs in Raphael and Lois. In the source material, the Flash comics, Iris is Barry's OTL.

Stelena is not a good example either. TVD is a show that has always been about the love triangle. It’s possible that the endgame wasn’t set in stone but Elena was always going to have a significant relationship with both Stefan and Damon. Delena is also canon in the books the series is based on.

 

 

Well if you're using source material, then TVD is an example of

Spoiler

writers not sticking to source material endgame. I don't think Delena was planned to be the show's endgame relationship. But don't forget that Nina's contract ended in season 6, and the show might have ended there if Ian and Paul didn't sign on. And it would have ended on Delena from all indications. So basically, they switched from a Stelena endgame to a Delena one with what they felt at the time was 2 seasons to go. 

Which is significant to The Flash because it shows that Iris being Barry's OTL in the comics doesn't guarantee an endgame on the show. And when you compare this to the parent show, it definitely seems that AJK was banking on this. 

The bottom line is that there's no real "Point of No Return" for writers to stop an OTP from reaching Endgame Status. And the fact that this switch was designed from the beginning is exactly the point that I make when I say that the showrunners (or at least the AJK portion of the showrunners) intended for Westallen to run its course, and Barry have an endgame with Snowbarry.

7 hours ago, Starry said:

If The Flash showrunners were going to drop Iris for Caitlin, s2 would have been the time.

To be honest, I don't believe right now that the Flash will drop Westallen anymore but that's not because of how long WA has been official but because AJK has left, and I'm already seeing the dismantling of some of his handiwork happening real-time.

If AJK had remained as showrunner... I don't think it would have mattered if WA was official for 2 seasons or 5. 

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

... Which is significant to The Flash because it shows that Iris being Barry's OTL in the comics doesn't guarantee an endgame on the show. And when you compare this to the parent show, it definitely seems that AJK was banking on this. 

The bottom line is that there's no real "Point of No Return" for writers to stop an OTP from reaching Endgame Status. And the fact that this switch was designed from the beginning is exactly the point that I make when I say that the showrunners (or at least the AJK portion of the showrunners) intended for Westallen to run its course, and Barry have an endgame with Snowbarry.

To be honest, I don't believe right now that the Flash will drop Westallen anymore but that's not because of how long WA has been official but because AJK has left, and I'm already seeing the dismantling of some of his handiwork happening real-time.

If AJK had remained as showrunner... I don't think it would have mattered if WA was official for 2 seasons or 5. 

I agree that what happens in the source material is not what will necessarily happen on a show.

Again, I just don't see any hard evidence of a "SnowBarry Endgame Conspiracy" when, at best, it was teased twice a season (3 out of 4); 95% of the time from Caitlin's side, while Ronnie* still gets brought up; and when they had the chance to actually go there with alternate versions (Savitar and Killer Frost) it still didn't happen. Meanwhile, every version of Barry loves Iris.

Plus, the show has literally connected Iris to Barry's powers, and his role as the Flash. I think that would very difficult (or even impossible) to undo, and I think it shows a firm commitment. Even if one showrunner was against it, at worst, maybe Iris would be sidelined, but replaced? Unlikely.

*(Which I think is because Ronnie is who the writers see as Caitlin's OTP; too bad Amell left.)

[scarynikki12]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Are we allowed to draw comparisons to other relationships, and keep significant plot details in Spoiler tabs?

Yes.  Comparisons are fine as long as your posts aren't only focusing on other shows.  And major events from other shows do need to be marked as Spoilers, so thank you for doing so.

[Kate45]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

I agree that what happens in the source material is not what will necessarily happen on a show.

Again, I just don't see any hard evidence of a "SnowBarry Endgame Conspiracy" when, at best, it was teased twice a season (3 out of 4); 95% of the time from Caitlin's side, while Ronnie* still gets brought up; and when they had the chance to actually go there with alternate versions (Savitar and Killer Frost) it still didn't happen. Meanwhile, every version of Barry loves Iris.

Plus, the show has literally connected Iris to Barry's powers, and his role as the Flash. I think that would very difficult (or even impossible) to undo, and I think it shows a firm commitment. Even if one showrunner was against it, at worst, maybe Iris would be sidelined, but replaced? Unlikely.

*(Which I think is because Ronnie is who the writers see as Caitlin's OTP; too bad Amell left.)

Iris' connection to Barry's powers would be very difficult for them to undo. Plus, they told us in 1x20 that Barry and Iris would marry. They have also told us that Barry and Iris are together in every timeline and earth. 

One big issue keeps being overlooked in regards to the source material topic: the role of DC Comics! They have a lot more control than some are contributing to them in these threads. Unlike Vampire Diaries, Jane The Virgin, and others, The Flash is still being used by DC Comics. None of these producers own the rights to any of these characters. Before beginning any season, each DCTV show has to sit down with DC Comics to go over the plan for the year and get permission to carry out storylines, and use villains for the year. Just recently Arrow was told by DC that they couldn't bring back a character back because of the plans DC had for the character in the DCEU. 

Iris is still a huge part of the comics, and she's set to be in the Flash movie that's coming out in a few years. DC would likely not be on board for killing Iris in the TV version (and I'd be really close to saying it's 100% guarantee that she's safe). It messes up their universe to have a version of the character dead on DCTV. 

Also, Smallive writers were fired for fighting to make Clark/Lana the final OTP. They were explicitly told that Clark/Lois had to be the final OTP. 

Based on that reaction from DC, I'm sure that SnowBarry was never in the cards as a final OTP. I'm also not so sure that it was ever set to be a midgame ship, either. 

The level of concern that DC Comics would have for these would be different for each Flash character. I'm sure the idea that DC cares about Barry/Iris would be obvious, but the other characters are likely not as much of a concern since it doesn't appear that the DCEU plans to use them. 

[Trini]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:14 PM, Kate45 said:

One big issue keeps being overlooked in regards to the source material topic: the role of DC Comics!

Speaking of DC's investment -

It's probably just marketing; but I thought it was interesting that DC's website decided to start a feature on relationships, and the first couple they discuss is Barry Allen & Iris West (really? Not Clark/Lois?), and they specifically mention Grant and Candice:

Quote

Barry and Iris have been one of the DCU's most prominent couples for the last three years or so, mostly after Grant Gustin and Candice Patton boosted them to the A-List on TV, but obviously, that wasn't always the case for either of them. ...

... The New 52 put their relationship right back in the spotlight, and then #DCTV's The Flash brought it home and cemented the victory. Barry and Iris became synonymous with Flash romances once again. ...

Edited April 6, 2018 by Trini

[ruby24]

The show has completely ignored them as a married couple since the wedding. They never show them at home. They have not allowed them to be intimate this ENTIRE SEASON. He's in prison for four episodes after the wedding and they get no reunion scene or are ever even shown at home once he's out.

I don't understand this at ALL. I cannot believe they haven't shown them in bed this entire season! Seriously, what on earth is that about? The total refusal to let them be intimate in any way is really stunning.

[BeautifulFlower]

8 hours ago, ruby24 said:

The show has completely ignored them as a married couple since the wedding. They never show them at home. They have not allowed them to be intimate this ENTIRE SEASON. He's in prison for four episodes after the wedding and they get no reunion scene or are ever even shown at home once he's out.

I don't understand this at ALL. I cannot believe they haven't shown them in bed this entire season! Seriously, what on earth is that about? The total refusal to let them be intimate in any way is really stunning.

Don't you remember? This is a kids show, so Barry and Iris can't be shown being intimate all that much. However, we can show Cynthia in a t-shirt and underwear as well as show people getting stabbed

[Trini]

 

In belated relationship news, I really felt for Cisco in this scene. Are we supposed to believe that he hasn't seen Cynthia (in person) since the last time the audience saw her? ?  I assume they still communicate through vibing, though. One positive of Cisco taking Breacher's job offer is that at least he and Cynthia would be together offscreen - not ideal, but I'd take it.

[BeautifulFlower]

I know people have opinions on things, but I don't buy Caitlin being Barry's best friend. I just don't. They don't come off as being best friends like Barry/Cisco do. I understand that she, Cisco, and Barry hung out a lot in season 1, but I don't see how that made her his other best friend. Caitlin at best was like the third wheel. They only hung out alone once and I'm sure he actually wanted to hang out with Cisco. 

Then whenever anything bad happened to her, Barry treated it as an afterthought. For example, the Zoom kidnapping. So yeah, Caitlin, in my opinion, is a good work friend.