Relationships: Speed Dating

[adora721]

Just read about a theory that once S3 had Barry and Iris as official, that's when the writers/writing started coddling Caitlin/KF to compensate. The writing made it seem as if Cait could do no wrong no matter how much wrong she was doing to make up for her not getting Barry or being the female lead so her fans could feel better about the situation. The LWG had a podcast about it (starts at 1 hr 24 min). Before reading this, I'd never considered this or saw the correlation, but theory has some merit.

Edited July 9, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

There was definitely some bias in the writers room by the mostly white, male writers, but I don't think Caitlin being "coddled" has much, if anything, to do Barry and Iris getting together. The writers seem determined to keep Caitlin/Danielle around even when it might be better to write her off, so I think they would always have stories for her, regardless.

[BeautifulFlower]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

There was definitely some bias in the writers room by the mostly white, male writers, but I don't think Caitlin being "coddled" has much, if anything, to do Barry and Iris getting together. The writers seem determined to keep Caitlin/Danielle around even when it might be better to write her off, so I think they would always have stories for her, regardless.

Also, I'm sure they were coddling her before season 3. It just wasn't as noticeable.

[Featherhat]

I personally don't think "coddling" does any character any favours. With Catlin maybe it was there but I wonder if it wasn't mostly just the writers not bothering to deal with any of the consequences of her actions because they don't care? Consequences mean meaty scenes and time spent making your character more interesting and complex, Catlin didn't exactly get that. The writers haven't really shown that much interest in actually exploring anything complex for her, even The Flash version of "complex", they always take the easy option, which is "coddling" her.

KF just strikes me mainly of them thinking she's cool (pun intended) because she's a snarky villain/anti hero but they don't want to actually deal with what that means and it gets worse every time they try. 

I'm still not 100% convinced TPTB (even Kreisberg) ever wanted Snowbarry. Even if they knew it wouldn't be endgame, why didn't they put a lot more in than a few little maybe hints and a not real kiss, if they actually wanted to try it? 

Even when WA has been an afterthought in the writing, it's not like a Barry/Caitlin connection has been strong IMO. They weren't afraid to write a real relationship with Eddie, even though they knew he was a dead man when they hired him. 

[BeautifulFlower]

58 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Even when WA has been an afterthought in the writing, it's not like a Barry/Caitlin connection has been strong IMO. 

This. As I said before, they can say Caitlin is Barry's other bestfriend all they want, but the writing never shows that. They are not that close and never have been. All someone has to do is is go back and watch their scenes.

When she got kidnapped back in season 1, he sent Cisco and someone else to rescue her. He was in no rush to save her from Zoom in season 2. The man got his powers back and immediately went to his mother's grave. Afterwards, he still did run off to try to save her.

Yeah they'll throw in checking in on each other or asking how they're doing after something tragic. However, those are just what normal friends would do. None of their scenes really showcase them as best friends. They really come off as good friends who happen to work together.

[adora721]

10 hours ago, Featherhat said:

With Catlin maybe it was there but I wonder if it wasn't mostly just the writers not bothering to deal with any of the consequences of her actions because they don't care? Consequences mean meaty scenes and time spent making your character more interesting and complex, Catlin didn't exactly get that. The writers haven't really shown that much interest in actually exploring anything complex for her, even The Flash version of "complex", they always take the easy option, which is "coddling" her.

I would agree with you that there's lack of interest if it wasn't for the fact that the writers actively try to diminish or outright erase the very evil actions and motivations they wrote for Cait.  Examples include:

• They write her lying to Ralph about only, "Kidnapping and stabbing" her friends; they fail to write her telling Ralph about taking HR Wells to be murdered.
• They write Ralph telling her that breaking into her mom's lab was her first felony, but they don't write Cait telling Ralph about the 11 felonies she committed in 3x7.
• They write Amunet telling her she's "remarkable" and Barry teling her, "You're a good person" depite having worked in human trafficking (a.k.a. slavery) and having tried to help murder Barry's lifelong love, Iris.
• The writers wrote Cait apologizing to Joe West, of all people, for hurting Cecile, but they didn't write her mentioning Iris, his daughter.
• They write her threatening to freeze Iris' arm in 4x5 just as Iris is befriending her; they write Iris to excuse her crimes as being manipulated by Savitar, but don't write Cait to apologize to Iris. 
• They write her almost getting Cynthia murdered by the Thinker, but don't write her apologizing to Cynthia or Cisco about it. In fact, when Iris expresses concern about her actions, Cait brushes Iris off.
• They write Iris supporting Cait getting KF back, but don't write Cait asking Iris how she feels about getting the woman back who tried to help murder her. 
• They write her trying to murder Cisco, her best friend, several times, but don't write her apologizing to Cisco for that.
• They write her to show almost zero remorse about helping to murder HR Wells; her main concern when talking to the psychiatrist in S4 was getting her muderous alter ego back. No mention of any guilt that a man is dead because she helped murder him. By the way, lack of guilt is a sign of sociopathy.
• They write her advocating for patient rights and consent, but then write her putting Grodd, a sentient being, into an induced coma without his consent.

These were and are deliberate writing choices; none of it is accidental or an editing choice. There's interest in writing for Cait, but that interest is in whitewashing her and coddling her in an attempt to make it seem like she doesn't need redemption. I suspect that command to write her that way comes from the showrunners and covert bias/racism.

Edited July 10, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

16 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Also, I'm sure they were coddling her before season 3. It just wasn't as noticeable.

Agree, but the point of the compensation theory is that the coddling ramped up to extremes once Barry and Iris got together. And that coddling continues to this day. 

Amunet told Cait she's "remarkable" just as Cait. The writing makes Cisco feel bad about his powers just as Cait tells Cisco he's more than his powers. If true, then why did the writing continue to make Cait so desperate to get back KF? If Cait was more than her powers and remarkable, why write Cait to consent to work again in slave trafficking for Amunet, almost get Cynthia killed, and lie again to the team to get KF/her powers back? 

In S6, I suspect Cait/KF will be the voice of "goodness"

Spoiler

leading her now evil meta mom back to the light...ugh!

Edited July 10, 2019 by adora721

[Katsullivan]

12 hours ago, adora721 said:

There's interest in writing for Cait, but that interest is in whitewashing her and coddling her in an attempt to make it seem like she doesn't need redemption. I suspect that command to write her that way comes from the showrunners and covert bias/racism.

Yeah I don't understand the argument that the writers whitewashing Caitlin means that they don't care about her. That's exactly what you to do with a "sacred cow" character. Considering how quickly the show writers like diminishing or humiliating Iris, without anyone ever defending her, I think it's gone far beyond "covert" racism at this point.

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Yeah I don't understand the argument that the writers whitewashing Caitlin means that they don't care about her. That's exactly what you to do with a "sacred cow" character. Considering how quickly the show writers like diminishing or humiliating Iris, without anyone ever defending her, I think it's gone far beyond "covert" racism at this point.

I guess from my POV there are plenty of ways they could give Caitlin/DP  a great meaty story and actually put her at the centre of things and give her more stories with Barry if they wanted to but they don't. 

I feel highly, highly unqualified to talk about race and The Flash in any depth, partly because I don't tend to watch most of the episodes more than once. I guess I see a lot of the very, very good points @adora721 pointed out as writers not being bothered once a particular story is over or writing for plot not character, not overt whitewashing but I might be very wrong. I do wish they'd have Caitlin take more responsibility for everything she should in general.

I still think Ralph Dibney's journey from douche bro to hero was a lot more lovingly crafted by the writers than anything given for the female characters on this show, and one that was definitely tied to Barry.

I don't think any of this for Caitlin is really "sorry you didn't get Barry" stuff but it possibly represents a blindspot (at best) for the writers. Iris getting dumped on, especially by Nora a lot last season was frustrating, and I do wonder about that, though Barry did stick up for her with that as well. I think that's partly because they wanted the Barry and Nora connection and a cliché teenage "wah I hate my Mom!" thing despite how unfair and out of place it was. With Iris in general yeah that should change. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Featherhat

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I guess from my POV there are plenty of ways they could give Caitlin/DP  a great meaty story and actually put her at the centre of things and give her more stories with Barry if they wanted to but they don't. 

Exactly! Caitlin/DP is an afterthought for the writers. She is a supporting character who is thrown a bone once in awhile. It is why all the fans of pairing her romantically with Barry are so frustrated online. They can't even make fantasy videos because she and Barry don't even share any scenes alone. Hell, they don't even stand near each other when they are in the same scenes. 

9 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Yeah I don't understand the argument that the writers whitewashing Caitlin means that they don't care about her. That's exactly what you to do with a "sacred cow" character. Considering how quickly the show writers like diminishing or humiliating Iris, without anyone ever defending her, I think it's gone far beyond "covert" racism at this point.

While I have problems with how they write Iris at times, I will never agree with or understand this take on Caitlin in the context of the Flash. I don't get how a character who is sidelined most of the time generates so much intense dislike.

Edited July 11, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

I keep thinking about the opportunities the show missed last season. In a season that was supposed to be about legacy and family, they should have used Joe and Cecile more in mentoring roles since they both have grown children, when Barry and Iris suddenly had a grown child drop into their lives. (Yes, Jesse Martin was out on injury, but Cecile was still there.) Jay Garrick could have made an appearance, too.

I also think we should have seen more about the West-Allen family in the future. All we knew about was Iris and Nora, and the little there was of that was mostly from Nora's perspective.

And even though Barry and Nora got more focus and screentime, I still think they could have done more to explore Barry's feelings on sudden fatherhood, and his own two fathers.

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, Trini said:

Jay Garrick could have made an appearance, too.

I was disappointed that we didn't get Jay last season. I have always loved his mentoring relationship with Barry even though he has way too many father figures. I hope he will visit this season. It does seem likely with possible merging of the earths. It would also be fun to meet the young woman he is training to be the Earth 3 Flash.

The other relationship I am interested in watching play out is Cisco and Kamilla. If Carlos is a regular this season, I don't see what they can do with their relationship since they sped through all their important moments.

Edited July 11, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

24 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

The other relationship I am interested in watching play out is Cisco and Kamilla. If Carlos is a regular this season, I don't see what they can do with their relationship since they sped through all their important moments.

I admit to being biased, because I loved Cisco/Cynthia - even though the show didn't do right by them either - but Kamilla is the nice, safe option for the new depowered Cisco, so I also don't have much hope for them next season. It'd be great if they surprised me and went deeper with them, but I've learned to set low expectations for side relationships.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I admit to being biased, because I loved Cisco/Cynthia ...

I don't know why the show didn't hire Jessica Camacho as a regular cast member after her show was cancelled.  Maybe they made her an offer and she wasn't interested or they weren't interested in bringing her on as a regular. I would have preferred Gypsy to Cecile as a regular cast member. The show has little for Cecile to do compared to Gypsy.

Edited July 11, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

While I have problems with how they write Iris at times, I will never agree with or understand this take on Caitlin in the context of the Flash. I don't get how a character who is sidelined most of the time generates so much intense dislike.

If you don't agree that Cait is a "sacred cow", then compare her treatment to Ralph. He's a White male who lashed out at Iris in 4x16 and no one defended her. Later in the episode, Ralph tells Iris he was "wrong", which is pretty close to an apology. Remind me if Cait has ever said anything close to that to Iris for the even more awful things Cait did to Iris. 

Because Ralph told Iris he was wrong, I can believe their friendship depicted in S5. That's how important and powerful an apology can be; it's an admission of wrongdoing and can clear the slate between two people to allow them to have a real relationship. 

My intense dislike of Cait and KF stems from the racism and injustice in her depiction. Her entitlement to do all sorts of evil without consequences grates at my sense of justice, especially since she's supposed to be a "good person." Good people admit their mistakes; good people apologize. Good people don't work in slave trafficking; good people feel guilt when they've caused someone to die. If Iris was literally getting away with murder, I'd dislike her intensely, too. You don't have to be a person of color to understand hatred of injustice or racism. ETA: Unless we're back to living in a world in which slavery is no big deal and helping to murder someone is considered a minor flaw.

What message is the show sending, especially to young children, about right and wrong when this "good person" does all this evil without repurcussions? It's perpetuating toxic White privilege and racism.

Edited July 11, 2019 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I don't know why the show didn't hire Jessica Camacho as a regular cast member after her show was cancelled.  Maybe they made her an offer and she wasn't interested or they weren't interested in bringing her on as a regular. I would have preferred Gypsy to Cecile as a regular cast member. The show has little for Cecile to do compared to Gypsy.

Because they already written Cynthia off. Plus, making her regular wouldn't have changed anything really. Her character would still only show up to have scenes with Cisco.

Honestly, Cisco and Cynthia weren't really going to last long anyway. I know people like to bring up how they could easily use their powers to visit Earths, but I think some missed the point. What if they both decided to get married? That means one of them is going to have to pack up and move to entire new Earth. They're leaving behind all their friends and family and basically start all over in new place. Neither Cisco or Cynthia wanted that.

[Trini]

6 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

... Plus, making her regular wouldn't have changed anything really. Her character would still only show up to have scenes with Cisco.

That's probably true if she just recurred throughout the season; however, I think if they had locked her down as a regular (but not necessarily appearing in every episode) I think they would have found ways to integrate her into the Team or pair her off with other characters, like they did with Ralph and Cecile. ... Alas, we will never know.
 

6 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Honestly, Cisco and Cynthia weren't really going to last long anyway. I know people like to bring up how they could easily use their powers to visit Earths, but I think some missed the point. What if they both decided to get married? That means one of them is going to have to pack up and move to entire new Earth. They're leaving behind all their friends and family and basically start all over in new place. Neither Cisco or Cynthia wanted that.

Again, I'm biased, but I think they could have lasted! At the very least, if Camacho/Cynthia had to leave, I think that they might have had a stronger reason for their breakup and a better build up to it if she was available for more episodes. To me it seemed like the writers really liked Cynthia and Cisco/Cynthia ... when she was present.

Also wasn't the reason they broke up is Cisco wanted more from the relationship, and Cynthia didn't? Because neither wanting to relocate is still a weak reason since they can so easily travel between earths.

[BeautifulFlower]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

Also wasn't the reason they broke up is Cisco wanted more from the relationship, and Cynthia didn't? Because neither wanting to relocate is still a weak reason since they can so easily travel between earths.

Yes, they broke up because Cynthia didn't want more. That's actually the only thing I dumb in the breakup. They made Cynthia look like a 180.

I don't find them not wanting to relocate a weak reason. Yes, they do have powers to travel between Earths; but, they don't want to stay on a completely new Earth. I think that's why Cisco didn't take the Breacher job.

[SimoneS]

On 7/11/2019 at 2:08 PM, adora721 said:

If you don't agree that Cait is a "sacred cow", then compare her treatment to Ralph. He's a White male who lashed out at Iris in 4x16 and no one defended her. Later in the episode, Ralph tells Iris he was "wrong", which is pretty close to an apology. Remind me if Cait has ever said anything close to that to Iris for the even more awful things Cait did to Iris. 

I am never going to see this the same way as you. I don't see KF/Cait being treated as a "sacred cow" or "snowflake" rather she is a character that the writers simply don't care about so they never give her any scenes beyond what they have to and don't bother following up on her behavior unlike with the characters who they do care about like Barry, Iris, Joe, Cisco, and Ralph. Besides KF/Cait apologizing to Iris or any follow up to her stories means that valuable screen time is given to DP who can barely act her way out of a paper bag so I am good with the status quo.

[SevenStars]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am never going to see this the same way as you. I don't see KF/Cait being treated as a "sacred cow" or "snowflake" rather she is a character that the writers simply don't care about so they never give her any scenes beyond what they have to and don't bother following up on her behavior unlike with the characters who they do care about like Barry, Iris, Joe, Cisco, and Ralph. Besides KF/Cait apologizing to Iris or any follow up to her stories means that valuable screen time is given to DP who can barely act her way out of a paper bag so I am good with the status quo.

To me, if they really didn't want to write for her, she would get the Cisco or Iris treatment, especially in s2. Where she is only part of the story to support Barry or another character.

Instead, they create characters seasons after seasons, in order to support Caitline/KF story line, even when it means changing her past every season or it doesn't make sense.

Just because they are really bad at writing for her doesn't mean they don't want to write for her or protecting her from criticism. It just means they need to be better at writing for her, since they keep creating ways to give her screen-time, even when it means side-lining more interesting characters or having those characters play supporting roles in her story.

This tells me this is a character they want to write for but are bad at it. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by SevenStars
Order, not other

[adora721]

Valerie has been tracking the screen time of only women on the Flash since season 1. Here are the totals for the top three in each season:

S5:

Nora West-Allen: 326 min 30 sec
Iris West-Allen: 240 min 10 sec
Caitlin Snow: 187 min 20 sec

S4:

Iris West - 237 min 0 sec
Caitlin Snow - 179 min 20 sec
Marlize Devoe - 76 min 10 sec 

S3:

Iris West - 223 min 10 sec
Caitlin Snow - 169 min 0 sec
Jesse Quick -  52 min 50 sec

S2:

Caitlin - 163 min 30 secs
Iris - 153 min 5 secs
Patty - 59 min 35 secs 

S1:

Iris West - 157 min 30 sec
Caitlin Snow - 155 min 50 sec
Felicity Smoak - 33 min 30 sec

Caitlin's average seems to be very stable over the seasons. That's a lot of screen time for someone the writers don't care about writing for; that's a lot of time spent on a character they're "not interested in." They care, but I agree that they don't write well for her. Perhaps if they didn't focus on whitewashing her, they could have put that effort into writing better for her. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by adora721

[SevenStars]

27 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Valerie has been tracking the screen time of only women on the Flash since season 1. Here are the totals for the top three in each season:

S5:

Nora West-Allen: 326 min 30 sec
Iris West-Allen: 240 min 10 sec
Caitlin Snow: 187 min 20 sec

S4:

Iris West - 237 min 0 sec
Caitlin Snow - 179 min 20 sec
Marlize Devoe - 76 min 10 sec 

S3:

Iris West - 223 min 10 sec
Caitlin Snow - 169 min 0 sec
Jesse Quick -  52 min 50 sec

S2:

Caitlin - 163 min 30 secs
Iris - 153 min 5 secs
Patty - 59 min 35 secs 

S1:

Iris West - 157 min 30 sec
Caitlin Snow - 155 min 50 sec
Felicity Smoak - 33 min 30 sec

Caitlin's average seems to be very stable over the seasons. That's a lot of screen time for someone the writers don't care about writing for; that's a lot of time spent on a character they're "not interested in." They care, but I agree that they don't write well for her. Perhaps if they didn't focus on whitewashing her, they could have put that effort into writing better for her. 

Nora was one of the worst written character last season and look at her screen time. I wouldn't be surprise if Barry was below or just above her in screen time.

[SimoneS]

10 hours ago, SevenStars said:

To me, if they really didn't want to write for her, she would get the Cisco or Iris treatment, especially in s2. Where she is only part of the story to support Barry or another character.

I never said that they don't write for her, I said that they don't care about her which I believe that they don't. To me, her stories are perfunctory. The writers do just enough to give KF/Caitlyn a story every season. Since Kreisberg was fired, her stories have gotten worse and are generally self-contained. The things that make you all angry about the character are evidence of this to me which I never get worked up about her. She is just there. Like I said, I am never going to view the character like you do and this conversation is going in circles so I am bowing out.

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

Caitlin's average seems to be very stable over the seasons. That's a lot of screen time for someone the writers don't care about writing for; that's a lot of time spent on a character they're "not interested in." They care, but I agree that they don't write well for her. Perhaps if they didn't focus on whitewashing her, they could have put that effort into writing better for her. 

They are always going to write for Caitlin. It is unrealistic not to expect them to, she is not only a regular, she is the only White woman in the cast. And I simply will never understand why you want them to put any effort  into writing for her. It would only mean more screen time for her and likely scenes with Barry which WestAllen fans would proceed to complain about. I am cool with how things are with KF/Caitlin and hope they continue this way. Now I am done. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

On 7/11/2019 at 7:44 AM, SimoneS said:

Exactly! Caitlin/DP is an afterthought for the writers. She is a supporting character who is thrown a bone once in awhile.

I must have misinterpreted the above for not wanting to write for her. In any case, I want them to write for her because she's the third-billed character who I used to like in S1 and S2. However, they write awful stuff for her to do without consequences and it smacks of racism. So, I want them to write to fix this, too.

Consider "Arrow's" writing for Laurel Lance.

Spoiler

She was demoted as the love interest and leading lady. Then, she was killed off and they wrote her supporting the new LI and leading lady as one of her last dying words. Talk about a slap in the face!

However, they brought her back as E2 Laurel Lance (Black Siren). She got to be rotten to the core and even murdered a team Arrow member's loved one. In this past season, they wrote a redemption arc for her that was complex, messy, and not easy. Part of that redemption was actually apologizing onscreen to Dinah for murdering her boyfriend. Dinah is played by a woman of color. So, you can see some parallels between Iris/Cait and E2 Laurel/Dinah.

The difference is that the producers and showrunners didn't instruct the writers to whitewash what Black Siren did. They didn't magically erase her evil deeds with a line of dialogue saying she was being manipulaed by the season's big bad.  Everyone on team Arrow didn't just automatically trust her when she said she was good now. They didn't just forget her evil deeds. No, E2 Laurel earned her way to becoming a hero. They even made her the new Black Canary in the S7 finale. 

Forget that Katie Cassidy is a better actress than DP. The pertinent point is that  TPTB at "Arrow" had no issue writing a real, recognizable, and desireable redemption arc for this character.

Life is all about relationships of various kinds. If we are to believe this show is about a Flash "family", then Cait's relationships with her "family" members (except Ralph) are highly tainted with a murderous history that can't just be whitewashed away. The previous showrunners made a grave error and I hope Eric Wallace corrects it. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by adora721

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

To me, if they really didn't want to write for her, she would get the Cisco or Iris treatment, especially in s2. Where she is only part of the story to support Barry or another character.

Instead, they create characters seasons after seasons, in order to support Caitline/KF story line, even when it means changing her past every season or it doesn't make sense.

This. We've seen how the writers treat characters they don't want to write for: that's how Iris was the character with the least impact in season 3, when saving her life was the season's goal. That's why Iris became Team Flash leader in season 4 and we didn't find out she quit journalism in the middle of season 4. 

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

Just because they are really bad at writing for her doesn't mean they don't want to write for her or protecting her from criticism. 

They're bad at writing for Caitlin because they're writing for Caitlin at Iris's expense. I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it's the truth. Iris is the second lead, the title character's LI, she's the second most important person in the story and the most important person to the most important person in the story. Getting her right isn't optional. 

By disrespecting the dynamics of the show - by making Caitlin, a supporting character more dominant than Iris, it skews the entire story. It's not a coincidence that all the best The Flash episodes (Runaway Dinosaur, Flashtime, Once and Future Flash) are the ones that have not only the best Iris and Iris/Barry writing but puts them at the heart of the story. The Flash will never be as good as it can be because the writers are hellbent on demeaning/diminishing the show's leading lady for Danielle Panabacker and the racist perspective. So paradoxically, that's why the writing for Caitlin will always be bad. 

But racism/white supremacy has never been about being "the best that it (a story, a society) can be". The goal isn't to write Caitlin well but to write Iris worse. The writing for Caitlin can be bad, but as long as the writing for Iris is worse, then Caitlin has won.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Katsullivan

[SevenStars]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I never said that they don't write for her, I said that they don't care about her which I believe that they don't. To me, her stories are perfunctory. The writers do just enough to give KF/Caitlyn a story every season. Since Kreisberg was fired, her stories have gotten worse and are generally self-contained. The things that make you all angry about the character are evidence of this to me which I never get worked up about her. She is just there. Like I said, I am never going to view the character like you do and this conversation is going in circles so I am bowing out.

They are always going to write for Caitlin. It is unrealistic not to expect them to, she is not only a regular, she is the only White woman in the cast. And I simply will never understand why you want them to put any into writing for her. It would only mean more screen time for her and likely scenes with Barry which WestAllen fans would proceed to complain about. I am cool with how things are with KF/Caitlin and hope they continue this way. Now I am done. 

I guess we have to agree to disagree, because to me, bad writing doesn't equal not caring. Bad writing is just bad writing. No writing is not caring and in Caitline's case, her being the only white woman shouldn't guarantee her screen-time/storyline every season. But it does, which brings me to my next point.

Like you, the writing have made me indifferent towards Caitline. At this point, I don't really care how badly they write her as long they keep her away from Iris, because the writing for Iris is always bad when Iris have to interact meaningfully with her.  So I don't care if she interact with Barry or not, I just need her to stay away from Iris. 

[BeautifulFlower]

8 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I guess we have to agree to disagree, because to me, bad writing doesn't equal not caring. Bad writing is just bad writing. No writing is not caring and in Caitline's case, her being the only white woman shouldn't guarantee her screen-time/storyline every season. But it does, which brings me to my next point.

Like you, the writing have made me indifferent towards Caitline. At this point, I don't really care how badly they write her as long they keep her away from Iris, because the writing for Iris is always bad when Iris have to interact meaningfully with her.  So I don't care if she interact with Barry or not, I just need her to stay away from Iris. 

Oh my god. I'm getting flashback to 4x05.

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Oh my god. I'm getting flashback to 4x05.

Sigh. I was so looking forward to that episode, one of the most disappointing and bad episodes of Flash IMO. If an episode with a girls team up and a female villain and the best thing about it was drunk Barry whilst everything else was actively annoying...…….

19 hours ago, adora721 said:

Caitlin's average seems to be very stable over the seasons. That's a lot of screen time for someone the writers don't care about writing for; that's a lot of time spent on a character they're "not interested in." They care, but I agree that they don't write well for her. Perhaps if they didn't focus on whitewashing her, they could have put that effort into writing better for her. 

It's stable because she's a regular, usually involved in whatever's going on with the villain of the week and overall plot and then has her side romances/KF stuff. The parts that have to do with her personally are generally self contained and have nothing to do with Barry, could be lifted out of an episode no problem, that's not particularly coddling her character, that's "we need to give our regular something to do." They have no reason to keep the character around especially but equally they have no reason to let her go when DP wants to stay, they need bodies in SL and they'd get a lot of grief for letting one of only two female regulars for a long time go.

I still think if they were coddling her then they'd have put the effort into KF that they put into Ralph's journey - that one they tied to Barry and went guns blazing at it and have people praising it for the best turn around they've seen with a character from gross to awesome. But obviously YYMV completely. 

The whitewashing is bad writing for a number of reasons but actually having Caitlin explore what it means to be KF beyond the surface and even the basic WHY does she want to be it again etc could be done but won't in any more depth than they've already done. Nothing that could get DP praise or put her front and centre of reviews and buzz, 2nd to Barry. 

17 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

By disrespecting the dynamics of the show - by making Caitlin, a supporting character more dominant than Iris, it skews the entire story. It's not a coincidence that all the best The Flash episodes (Runaway Dinosaur, Flashtime, Once and Future Flash) are the ones that have not only the best Iris and Iris/Barry writing but puts them at the heart of the story. The Flash will never be as good as it can be because the writers are hellbent on demeaning/diminishing the show's leading lady for Danielle Panabacker and the racist perspective. So paradoxically, that's why the writing for Caitlin will always be bad. 

To me this is more about the Team Flash dynamic and "everyone is a supporting character apart from Barry". Iris is most definitely the most important to Barry and a capable person but this show was never going to be Barry/Iris and then everyone else. In the early seasons it was more Barry and Joe and everyone else. And I can't say for sure obviously but I think that would have been the case even if a white actress had been cast as Iris. That's most definitely not to say race hasn't played a conscious and unconscious part in the writing but it's not the only factor. 

This happens across the whole Arrowverse where there is an eponymous no matter who is supposed to be the leading lady. Both KC and EBR when they've been 2nd billed/leading lady or Oliver's main love interest have had times when they certainly haven't been at the heart of the show for many episodes at a time. Laurel's storylines could also often have been lifted right out and no one would notice, a little like DPs but possibly for different reasons. 

Now would I like to see a NewsFlash type show, yeah and there are ways they can definitely incorporate that into THIS story that they're telling but I'm not holding my breath. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Featherhat

[Trini]

Answering in the Caitlin Snow thread.

[Starry]

On 7/13/2019 at 11:32 PM, Featherhat said:

To me this is more about the Team Flash dynamic and "everyone is a supporting character apart from Barry". Iris is most definitely the most important to Barry and a capable person but this show was never going to be Barry/Iris and then everyone else.

I think this is the issue. We can recognize that Iris is the most important person to Barry so why isn't she the one getting the most story after Barry? I agree that this was never going to be Barry&Iris but it shouldn't be Barry&Team either. Legends is the only Arrowverse show that has been sold as a team show. This one is about Barry so the natural order should be 1) Barry 2) Iris (because the shows structure presents her as the most important person to him not just from a sentimental standpoint but from a narrative one) 3) everyone else. Instead Flash started off with putting Barry above everyone else but lumping Iris in with the rest of the supporting cast which doesn't make sense because as the most important person to the lead she should be under Barry but above the rest, not on equal footing. Now they have gone one step further and from mid-season 4 they have put Barry himself on the same level as the rest of the cast.

Because Iris is important to Barry she's narratively relevant. She isn't a character who can be lifted off the canvas with no repercussions but at the same time she's someone whose story potential gets sacrificed to sell a Team Flash dynamic that shouldn't have been this prominent considering the premise (Barry is the lead, everyone else is supporting). I think this is where the disconnect is coming from. I have seen fans insist that Iris was the reason the other characters were getting sidelined when she became team leader but IMO it's the other way around. Iris' personal story as a reporter was getting sacrificed to accommodate Team Flash. In the end, centering Team Flash means giving more importance to those characters whose relevancy begings and ends with whatever position they occupy at STAR Labs. Even Iris' romantic relationship with Barry took a backseat to sell a Mr&Mrs. STAR Labs dynamic.

I disagree that the first season was about Barry&Joe and then everyone else because while Joe was Barry's confidante he didn't drive his story. IMO the shows narrative positioned Iris, Thawne and Barry's parents as the characters who were the most needed in telling the story they were telling. Cisco&Caitlin were needed at STAR Labs but the lab wasn't story. Barry loving Iris and wanting to get justice for his parents/fighting Reverse Flash were the story.

[Featherhat]

44 minutes ago, Starry said:

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 10:32 PM, Featherhat said:

I think this is the issue. We can recognize that Iris is the most important person to Barry so why isn't she the one getting the most story after Barry? I agree that this was never going to be Barry&Iris but it shouldn't be Barry&Team either. Legends is the only Arrowverse show that has been sold as a team show.

I think they wanted to replicated the successful Team Arrow vibe of Arrow with Cisco and Caitlin and with Iris as a love interest not in the know (for now) but who has chemistry with the lead this time. In that way, rightly or wrongly that type of character doesn't get the 2nd most story in any show built like this. LOT is the only ensemble show but the rest more or less have Hero and The Team. 

49 minutes ago, Starry said:

Because Iris is important to Barry she's narratively relevant. She isn't a character who can be lifted off the canvas with no repercussions but at the same time she's someone whose story potential gets sacrificed to sell a Team Flash dynamic that shouldn't have been this prominent considering the premise (Barry is the lead, everyone else is supporting). I think this is where the disconnect is coming from. I have seen fans insist that Iris was the reason the other characters were getting sidelined when she became team leader but IMO it's the other way around. Iris' personal story as a reporter was getting sacrificed to accommodate Team Flash. In the end, centering Team Flash means giving more importance to those characters whose relevancy begings and ends with whatever position they occupy at STAR Labs. Even Iris' romantic relationship with Barry took a backseat to sell a Mr&Mrs. STAR Labs dynamic.

I agree 100% that she's narratively relevant and can't be lifted off the canvas without massive repercussions, that's sort of what I was getting at with Caitlin. She might get be consistently up there for screentime and get no consequences to her actions but have her/them decide to move to the Arctic for research and the show goes on with minimal difficulty. 

There's no doubt the writers haven't been very interested in Iris as a Reporter storyline over the seasons but I'm not sure that was just about Team Flash. . That dynamic hasn't often helped Iris though. There are certainly many ways they could have carried on with it like they did in S1 with Iris meeting The Flash on the rooftops. Team Flash science shenanigans are probably easier to write and fit in and cheaper to set an episode almost entirely at Star Labs. But apart from anything else how that damn newspaper headline didn't generate more interest from anyone for years except about how it was or wasn't written by IWA is beyond comprehension. 

I kind of think that the writers do love Iris and do love WestAllen but it wasn't something they felt the need to write a lot for a lot of the time. They're in this "gold standard" shaped bubble that isn't going anywhere, CP can work alchemy with turning meagre scraps into gold, meanwhile our young viewer base loves what we do already lets carry on. Sort of. 

I certainly don't think bringing her in as leader of Team Flash sacrificed anyone else, especially not in terms of story or really screentime. Everyone is the best at what they do, you need someone to bring it all together, who isn't Barry or whichever Wells is around at the time. Her reporter storyline had mostly vanished at that point but it did make sense at the start of S4 and at that point there wasn't going to be any sort of story hub that wasn't at SL or the West House.

I think a bit of the disconnect is kind of those who think the show should follow more of an updated Lois and Clark template with more focus on the Flash as a character side of things than they did (I would watch this is not a put down) and others who want the LI solely in their LI box whilst others fight metahumans, please don't come out of it.  

As for Barry and Joe, I still think that is one of the relationships the writers really loved showing early on. Iris, Thawne and his parents were all other threads but I think that was the most emotionally written for large chunks of the time. Obviously things changed and grew a bit. 

[adora721]

I actully expect and want the writers to write for Cait/KF, but it should be good writing, with some logic to it, and a good story, especially since she's the third-billed character.  I only mentioned her screen time as evidence that they do care and are interested in writing for her. I also brought it up to show that they made the time to write badly for her, but not to write better. I mean they retconned her origins how many times?? That's a lot of effort for one character who's not the lead or the second-billed character.

Also, I'm beginning to think it's not the writers that are at fault, it's the producers and showrunners who aren't interested in telling the writers to do better for both Iris and Cait/KF. When asked who they liked writing for, none of the writers chose Cait/KF - not one gave a pity like. I now suspect it's because TPTB, not the writers, instructed them to write that awful stuff for Cait/KF, and the writers hate doing it because they know it's bad storytelling. 

With a new showrunner, perhaps the writers will be instructed to adhere to the rules of good storytelling so that these relationships can actually be more grounded in some common sense logic like what happened in "Arrow".

[Trini]

9 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I think a bit of the disconnect is kind of those who think the show should follow more of an updated Lois and Clark template with more focus on the Flash as a character side of things than they did (I would watch this is not a put down) and others who want the LI solely in their LI box whilst others fight metahumans, please don't come out of it.   

I would LOVE the show to be another Lois & Clark, but I know it never will be. But they can still do better with Iris and the West-Allen family in general. And I don't think it would take too much extra energy; the showrunners/writer's room just need to get their priorities straight.

[phoenics]

On 7/12/2019 at 7:21 PM, SimoneS said:

I am never going to see this the same way as you. I don't see KF/Cait being treated as a "sacred cow" or "snowflake" rather she is a character that the writers simply don't care about so they never give her any scenes beyond what they have to and don't bother following up on her behavior unlike with the characters who they do care about like Barry, Iris, Joe, Cisco, and Ralph. Besides KF/Cait apologizing to Iris or any follow up to her stories means that valuable screen time is given to DP who can barely act her way out of a paper bag so I am good with the status quo.

I think for me it's more that DP has been treated as the snowflake and the sacred cow.  She played to the racism and hatred part of the fandom had for a racebent Iris and used that to try to snatch the lead spot.  She also did that with the showrunner, colluding with him to take the lead spot.  And even though she failed, she STILL has an inordinate amount of screentime - nearly the same as CP.

I do believe her getting nearly the same screentime and the constant attempts to "redo" KF/Caitlin were consolation prizes because they wouldn't do SB.  I also believe that she would have had even MORE screentime had DP not demanded she not get a love interest the last 2 seasons.

Now - she's begging them to bring Ronnie back.  LMAO.

As to your point that I bolded above - it would be one thing if we hadn't had to see Caitlin be a bitch to Iris toward the end of Season 4 (snapping at Iris when Iris was worried about her wanting KF back - the gall of that given KF/Caitlin tried to kill Iris) and then again in Season 5 (the snarky pleased looks when Nora bashed Iris).  It's one thing for the show to refuse to address the many many horrible crimes from the character - it's another for us as fans to have to sit through her being a sanctimonious little bitch to the character she wronged and never apologized to.

[DearEvette]

I think it is the likeability actors and the chemistry between them all that is mainly responsible for the success of The Flash.

If you really sit and think about it, the writing hasn't been a friend to any of the characters, not just Caitlin.  I mean look at how badly they fucked up Nora.  What a waste of such a potentially great character. 

Barry comes off the best but that is because I think in the beginning the show was laser focused in writing for him and had a strong story to tell about him.  Everyone else were still very much satellites around Barry.  It is no accident that the writing of the characters' relationship with Barry is always stronger than the writing of their relationships with each other outside of Barry.  I mean compare Joe ad Barry's relationship with Joe and Iris' relationship.  There is some truly wonderful character and relationship moments between Barry and Joe.  Joe and Iris simply didn't get those same level of emotional beats. 

And while writing for your central character is fine, it can't sustain itself in the long run if you have an ensemble cast that, like this cast, is likeable and capable of showing a range of emotions.

It is no accident that the romances for every character has felt pretty anemic, not just Caitlin.  Yes, even West-Allen.  I think WA is saved by the sheer force of the chemistry between CP and GG.  The idea of them and the aura of them is stronger than what we actually get on screen.  I mean, look at last season, Barry and Iris should have gotten at least one romantic scene alone, marvelling at the fact that she had been pregnant with his child.  Ruminating over what that must have been like to find out that they were gonna be parents, joking about how much fun they had making her.  It could have been a great tender even somewhat sexy sceen, and yet the lion's share of that was them separately dealing with Nora.  Hell, I think Iris spent more time in bed with Oliver than she did with Barry last season.

re: Caitlin, I think the writers truly believe they write well for her.  I think they truly believe pumping up KF and putting her in dominatrix gear and making her sexy-drawl is appealing to the fans.  I bet they high fived themselves in congratulation after the last KF recton.  After all she has super powers and that automatically makes her a 'badass' in fandom eyes and yet she has a heart of gold and is still part of the team because she is 'Caity' underneath. 

[adora721]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

re: Caitlin, I think the writers truly believe they write well for her.  I think they truly believe pumping up KF and putting her in dominatrix gear and making her sexy-drawl is appealing to the fans.  I bet they high fived themselves in congratulation after the last KF recton.  After all she has super powers and that automatically makes her a 'badass' in fandom eyes and yet she has a heart of gold and is still part of the team because she is 'Caity' underneath. 

And therein lies the rub, the previous showrunners and writing team are blinded by the legacy of White supremacy and fake progressiveness. How else could they write Cait as working for a human trafficker, which is a form of slavery, and almost getting a Latina murdered and yet still expect the audience to consider Cait as having a "heart of gold". She's a medical doctor who put a sentient being (Grodd) into a forced coma, but yet claimed to care about consent even for villains. And they wrote a feminism episode in which the woman (Cait/KF) who tried to help murder Iris and threatened to murder Cecile didn't apologize to either in the episode.

They wrote all this and somehow believe Cait's still "pure as the driven Snow"?! Kinda like the founding fathers writing, "All men are created equal" at the same time they had slavery. Racism, even unconscious racism, breeds hypocrisy and stupidity.

Edited August 8, 2019 by adora721

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I mean, look at last season, Barry and Iris should have gotten at least one romantic scene alone, marvelling at the fact that she had been pregnant with his child.  Ruminating over what that must have been like to find out that they were gonna be parents, joking about how much fun they had making her.  It could have been a great tender even somewhat sexy sceen, and yet the lion's share of that was them separately dealing with Nora.  Hell, I think Iris spent more time in bed with Oliver than she did with Barry last season.

They had that cute "we made a person!" thing but that was about it. Yeah that would have been a great time for an intimate discussion about having kids and how strange but awesome it was to see their grown up daughter. Sigh, Nora could have been a really great character. Hopefully JPK can come back as different!Nora or Dawn at some point because she was the best thing about it. 

I still think it's strange that we never saw their first time together, which is usually a milestone that TV shows want to show, even if it's just "fade to black". Though it's still better than how "Bones" handled it. 

Barry's relationships to everyone are usually the strongest, especially Joe and Wells in S1 and then Iris. Barry and Caitlin stopped having a person connection after S1 so I never seriously thought they were interested in Snowbarry or gave much of a damn about Caitlin apart from KF being "badass" which is why they don't realise how awful it makes Caitlin. Which obviously it does. If this is for DP then wow. And again, actually exploring that would mean meaty scenes for her and more screentime and they could connect it more to Barry (which they don't). I wouldn't mind if Ronnie came back but I don't think RA is interested in anything longterm on the show. 

In terms of "colluding" with the showrunner to become leading lady? I'm sure she wanted to be LL but there were a lot of things they could have done to make her important to Barry (without being LI) but they didn't do that either. Even having them bond in S2 after Ronnie saving the city or bond over KF and Savitar teaming up or making her the Chloe to Iris's Lana Lang any of those could have then lead to "well we had to explore their connection...." Nada. There's no material for shippers to make fanvids. There's more of Iris with Oliver and Caitlin/KF with Mick Rory than Barry and Caitlin. 

[scarynikki12]

Anecdote from Comic Con: near the end of the panel a fan asked if Iris would ever find out that Barry kissed Caitlin (presumably referring to that season 1 rogue who impersonated Barry). Only about half the audience remembered that moment but the entire panel had simultaneous “I have no idea what you’re talking about” expressions. My row had a good laugh at that. 

[ursula]

Grant's reply: "Let's keep that between Hannibal Lecter and Caitlin, Barry doesn't even know about this" was solid gold.

[adora721]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

Now - she's begging them to bring Ronnie back.  LMAO.

Did DP really ask for Ronnie to come back? When?

59 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Anecdote from Comic Con: near the end of the panel a fan asked if Iris would ever find out that Barry kissed Caitlin (presumably referring to that season 1 rogue who impersonated Barry). Only about half the audience remembered that moment but the entire panel had simultaneous “I have no idea what you’re talking about” expressions. My row had a good laugh at that. 

The fact that they don't realize that it wasn't actually "Barry" is what makes them certifiable. That, plus the fact that they think KF trying to murder Barry with the cold kiss counts as a romantic moment.

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

There's no material for shippers to make fanvids.

Tell that to the fans who make 15-minute SB videos for every episode even now. 

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

Anecdote from Comic Con: near the end of the panel a fan asked if Iris would ever find out that Barry kissed Caitlin (presumably referring to that season 1 rogue who impersonated Barry). Only about half the audience remembered that moment but the entire panel had simultaneous “I have no idea what you’re talking about” expressions. My row had a good laugh at that. 

That question really made no sense to me. Although, bravo for that person to be brave enough to ask a question in the first place. I know I wouldn't be able to.

Back to the question. I wonder what answer they were expecting. In my opinion, it comes off as they were expecting a "yes". Which bring me to my next point. Why would the show go back to that? One that wasn't even Barry. Two, Caitlin has gotten over it. Are there some people expecting the show to create a forced love triangle between Iris, Barry, and Caitlin? If so, it would serve neither B or C any favors. Caitlin would be a homewrecker for coming between a marriage and a happy home. Barry would be an a**hole for being unfaithful to Iris, his wife. This is why that question makes no sense to me.

[Featherhat]

If it had been an actual kiss between them and not an imposter I could see people wondering if it would be brought up. Didn't the crossover have a thing where Oliver found out Barry and Felicity kissed or am I misremembering? Like it wouldn't be a homewrecker storyline but a "whoa" moment. Maybe? That's incredibly wishful thinking if anyone wanted it to lead to anything more. If it even had been real. 

That said there are eleventy billion things from early seasons I think are much more important to go back to which will never happen either. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Featherhat

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, adora721 said:

5 hours ago, Featherhat said:

There's no material for shippers to make fanvids.

Tell that to the fans who make 15-minute SB videos for every episode even now. 

A dedicated fan shipper can take a casual glance that means absolutely nothing in canon, slo mo it down so it become a long, longing look, put some Barry White music behind it and swear it is true love.

Edited August 9, 2019 by DearEvette

[phoenics]

10 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Hell, I think Iris spent more time in bed with Oliver than she did with Barry last season.

Damn.  This is accurate AF.

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Didn't the crossover have a thing where Oliver found out Barry and Felicity kissed or am I misremembering?

There was a kiss between Barry and Felicity in the last crossover; but the way it was presented, it wasn't something that Barry would remember. But Oliver did find out that Barry kissed Felicity (back in season 1) in the Vixen animated series.

[Trini]

Thought this was an sweet, underrated little moment in the finale:

I used to be worried about the show killing off Joe once Barry & Iris got married, but now I think that he has to be there even if Jesse leaves the show. Joe can't die. Besides the fact that he has a new child and (common law -*sigh*) wife, he's the only surviving parent between Barry & Iris, and family is too important as the heart of the show. (Yes, even though they've made mistakes with the family storylines before.)

So here's hoping that Jesse stays in good health, and Wallace and the writers room make good use of Joe in his roles as father and CCPD captain. (And that they remember Jenna exists and she's Iris' sister, but I'm not holding my breathe for that. -See also: Cecile's entire other grown daughter that hasn't been mentioned since Season 4)

[SimoneS]

18 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Barry's relationships to everyone are usually the strongest, especially Joe and Wells in S1 and then Iris. Barry and Caitlin stopped having a person connection after S1 so I never seriously thought they were interested in Snowbarry or gave much of a damn about Caitlin apart from KF being "badass" which is why they don't realise how awful it makes Caitlin. Which obviously it does. If this is for DP then wow. And again, actually exploring that would mean meaty scenes for her and more screentime and they could connect it more to Barry (which they don't). I wouldn't mind if Ronnie came back but I don't think RA is interested in anything longterm on the show. 

In terms of "colluding" with the showrunner to become leading lady? I'm sure she wanted to be LL but there were a lot of things they could have done to make her important to Barry (without being LI) but they didn't do that either. Even having them bond in S2 after Ronnie saving the city or bond over KF and Savitar teaming up or making her the Chloe to Iris's Lana Lang any of those could have then lead to "well we had to explore their connection...." Nada. There's no material for shippers to make fanvids. There's more of Iris with Oliver and Caitlin/KF with Mick Rory than Barry and Caitlin. 

This has been my opinion forever. 

[Starry]

On 8/8/2019 at 11:37 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

Are there some people expecting the show to create a forced love triangle between Iris, Barry, and Caitlin? If so, it would serve neither B or C any favors. Caitlin would be a homewrecker for coming between a marriage and a happy home. Barry would be an a**hole for being unfaithful to Iris, his wife. This is why that question makes no sense to me.

There's no happy home to them. Caitlin wouldn't be a homewrecker but the person who would save Barry ( and for some even Iris ) from a sad, toxic, abusive marriage.

The more optimistic ones believe that if Barry finds out about the kiss, his "blinders" would fall off, he'd start fantasizing about being in a RL with Caitlin and eventually realize he had fallen in love with her. If Caitlin marrying Ronnie, dating Hunter, dating Julian, becoming KF, being kidnapped and almost dying didn't "wake up" his "dormant feelings", finding out about the Snowbates kiss would definitely do the trick. They basically expect Barry to be in the same position Iris was in s1/s2, except in Iris' case they didn't like the storyline and trashed her for friendzoning Barry.

The less optimistic ones want them to revisit the kiss so that their headcanons about Caitlin silently pining over Barry can become canon, it doesn't matter if he rejects her.

Since Caitlin forgot about the kiss two seconds after it happened and hasn't been jealous of any of Barry's girlfriends, both scenarios would be a hard-sell at this point.

On another note, since some of you mentioned Oliver&Iris it's time for me to be bitter about missed opportunities. The best thing about Oliver&Iris are Barry's reactions any time Iris mentions Oliver's attractiveness to mess/flirt with him. I didn't care about Elseworlds because from Iris' perspective that wasn't Oliver, he rebuffed her and it was painful to watch. Again, Barry's reactions were the best thing about the whole situation.

IMO it would be nice if they cared to include one scene/conversation that doesn't boil down to "Oliver is Iris' celebrity crush but she doesn't want Barry to become like him". I don't think Oliver sees Iris as anything more than the woman Barry is in love with. She may as well be non-existent to him. I don't expect them to be like Barry&Felicity or even Iris&Felicity but I need something ( I don't mean anything romantic ) to show that Iris and Oliver acknowledge and even respect each other as people. If I have to think of Oliver as one of Barry's BFFs, if I have to believe that Iris and Felicity are close enough for the latter to attend Iris' bachelorette party and confide in her about her husband then it's a shame that they don't care to give Iris&Oliver anything more meanigful to complete the WestAllen/Olicity "square".

[Trini]

I just hope Eric Wallace comes through with the crossover this year. Although, I'm only expecting anything from the Flash part.

[scarynikki12]

Remember the discussion of this thread is about Flash relationships. Referencing the crossovers is fine as long as the focus remains on topic. Several posts went off topic and have been moved to the crossover thread found here. Please read the thread rules  before continuing the discussion.