Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

http://tvline.com/2015/09/11/supernatural-season-11-spoilers-the-darkness-returning-characters/

 

New article.No big new spoilers.  This bit from Carver:

 

They try as hard as they can to put that behind them, particularly in the first couple episodes, understanding the shared culpability for what is happening. There is residual fallout just from what happened that they’re going to have to deal with, but not necessarily a residual anger toward each other.

Seems to imply what Jensen has been emphasizing is correct.  But Carver, who likes to make up words, seems unable to answer a question in a straight-forward fashion. 

[catrox14]

Apparently there was a gaggle of press from Mexico, Central and South America with SPN today.  A bunch of instagram, vines etc are starting to roll in.  I'll see if I can post them.

 

A bit of spoiler about Dean and Cas. Jensen seems to be confirming everything is okay between them, pretty definitively

  https://twitter.com/soullessglenda/status/642172174179115008

 

Jensen discusses what Dean might think about God here (nothing major) https://i.instagram.com/p/7gE7jPxoz7/

 

Jensen discusses show concept meetings.

 

https://twitter.com/cr0ssroad/status/642424992051953668

Edited September 12, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Jared discusses the brothers a bit. Nothing major

 

https://instagram.com/p/7gD-LzxoyH/

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I don't think Sam or Dean having visions means they necessarily have some supernatural power that are creating the visions. It sounds like it's coming from a force outside of Sam and Dean. Like when angels used to visit Dean in his dreams back in S4 and S5. Angels also are known to be able to warp reality, so it seems pretty likely that the Darkness would be able to do that and much more. 

 

I'm guessing the visions are a way for the Darkness to communicate with Sam and Dean at first until it takes a human host of some sort.

Edited September 12, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

 

3 minutes ago

Personally, I don't think Sam or Dean having visions means they necessarily have some supernatural power that are creating the visions. It sounds like it's coming from a force outside of Sam and Dean.

 

I'm not sure anymore how to distinguish when the guys are supernaturally enhanced and when they are not. The Mark and demon blood weren't manifested out of the guys themselves.

 

So I don't know what to make of the visions/premonitions.  Like to me, we all have dreams. But the dreams come from our own brains for myriad reasons.  Are Dean and Sam's visions really maybe just deeply buried memories especially Sam's from when he was in the cage? Or was Lucifer's vessel?  Would that make it supernatural?

[DittyDotDot]

I guess I would say the Mark made Dean supernatural. It wasn't something that just anyone could wear or harness the power from and Dean had some control over it. The demon blood powers Sam had made him supernatural in my mind as well. It was something fairly specific to Sam and eventually was able to control it to some degree.

 

With angels jumping into Dean's dreams, it's not something the humans create from themselves or have any control over. It was the angels that had the ability to do it and the angels who controlled it.

 

So, if these visions are manifested by the Darkness I don't see it as a power of Sam and Dean's, but a power of the Darkness. I'm just saying Jensen may not be trying to mislead us on that one point. 

[AwesomO4000]

New article.No big new spoilers.  This bit from Carver:

They try as hard as they can to put that behind them, particularly in the first couple episodes, understanding the shared culpability for what is happening. There is residual fallout just from what happened that they’re going to have to deal with, but not necessarily a residual anger toward each other.

 

Seems to imply what Jensen has been emphasizing is correct.  But Carver, who likes to make up words, seems unable to answer a question in a straight-forward fashion. 

 

I'm envisioning a season 5 type of thing myself, where the brothers are working together, but under the surface there's anger or disappointment that comes out at certain points. That "not necessarily a residual anger" from Carver is leaving wiggle room for me. Considering that this is Sam's fault and he knows it, I'm not expecting anger from Sam, but I'm expecting that once Dean finds out the whole story* he's going to - understandably - have some anger, no matter what Dean might say earlier in the first few episodes.

 

*I think it's interesting that Carver says "especially in the first few episodes" which for me leaves room open for things to change once Dean finds out the whole story. I think Sam and Dean will start out with the "we have to work together to fix this" and then it will be all shocking and sad and angsty once Dean finds out the whole story, and then I think we're going to see a revisit of the guilt and Sam having to prove himself again that we saw in season 5. My guess is that Castiel will accidentally spill the beans when Dean goes poking... much like Cas accidentally spilled the beans in season 6 concerning what Sam did when soulless.

[mertensia]

Doesn't Carver get tired of retreading the same paths?

[SueB]

ETA comment I was responding to:

 

*I think it's interesting that Carver says "especially in the first few episodes" which for me leaves room open for things to change once Dean finds out the whole story. I think Sam and Dean will start out with the "we have to work together to fix this" and then it will be all shocking and sad and angsty once Dean finds out the whole story, and then I think we're going to see a revisit of the guilt and Sam having to prove himself again that we saw in season 5.

 

Well from the deleted scenes and the capture of Rowena in EP3, I don't know what 'beans' are left to spill. That he's prayed to God? Hardly a betrayal. And Crowley looks like he tags up with the boys in EP2.

Dean, at least no later than EP3 will know Sam worked with Rowena and tried to kill Crowley. He already specifically knew of Charlie and Cas' involvement. Oscar's death? I doubt it'll be mentioned. But that's kinda a drop in the bucket.

 

I respect that many people believe Carver is a lying liar who lies. He certainly appears like he obfuscates BASIC facts. As if the sky is blue might be a spoiler. So if you don't want to accept his "shared culpability" ...okay.  But let me make one last reasoned argument why Dean MIGHT not go off on Sam.

 

1) Dean, unfiltered and affected by the Mark, already went off on Sam about Charlie and that they (the brothers) were inherently a source of evil vs good.  AFTER that he still decides to spare Sam and kill Death.  As Jensen relayed it, that decision point was NOT in the script but he placed it after Sam was on his knees and that the "Forgive Me." was that he was sorry for not going off with Death and ending this all.  By the time he answered the question, they had finished EP 4 and read EP 5.  If the writers had made some dialog that it was anything other than an intentional act by Dean to spare Sam, Jensen wouldn't have responded that way.  So, IMO, it's pretty unambiguous that Dean ACCEPTS what Sam has done and at a minimum and at least wants him to live.  It's only in fandom that people argue about Sam's failure to 'make a phone call'.  Personally, I'll be shocked if it's EVER mentioned.  I think the timing was near simultaneous and even a Winchester gets a pass for not having his full wits about him after accepting he's going to die, nearly being beheaded by his own brother, and seeing Death killed. 

 

2) Dean took on the Mark.  He's always made it clear that is 100% ON HIM.  Never remotely suggested otherwise.  In Dean logic, IMO, it was the need to save Dean that motivated the need for the spell in the first place.  And even though Dean didn't want the consequences of removing the Mark (whatever they may be), he knows that Sam wouldn't have been in that situation if he (Dean) did not have the Mark in the first place.  Again, IMO, Dean will take partial ownership of establishing the problem in the first place.  Just like he took responsibility for taking on Cain because he was the one who re-awoken Cain's bloodlust in the first place. 

 

3) Dean has a death toll that's pretty impressive in S9 - and those are the on-screen deaths.  Beyond the demon minion #3's... there's:

- Lester

- Randy and the Rapists (6)

- The Munroe Styne family (Death toll well over a dozen, including one "Sam substitute" questionable teen)

- Rudy

 

For EITHER Sam or Dean to sit and nitpick, who was more evil in S9 would be REALLY petty. Especially in light of the impending Apocalyptic Darkness and a "obvious" effect of Death's death.  Now both of them are certainly CAPABLE of petty... but they don't have time for this and neither probably has the stomach for it at this point. 

 

So... yes, many in fandom are upset that Sam didn't make a phone call in those final critical second.  I think that's a fandom issue and not a show concern.  Other than that -- both have "red on their ledger" as Black Widow would say (Avengers Shout Out!).  Moving forward with "let's just clean this up and pick thru the entrails of who did what." seems more probable than Dean fostering a resentment over Sam's actions IMO.

Edited September 12, 2015 by SueB

[mertensia]

In fact if they are separated or have wonky memories they will be incapable of nitpicking.

[Aeryn13]

 

So... yes, many in fandom are upset that Sam didn't make a phone call in those final critical second.  I think that's a fandom issue and not a show concern.

 

With the way the episode played out, anyone who learned about the Darkness being released if the Mark was taken off Dean and didn`t immediately come out with "oh gee, I already have put a spell in motion to do so" fucked up. This is the absolute minimum I would expect from any character in that situation. I don`t care if the writers don`t have common sense and logical thinking.  

 

I do expect that Dean either learns, on-or offscreen, in the Premiere how and why the MOC got removed from his arm. Currently he probably thinks that killing Death did it. How is he supposed to know about the spell? That is one piece of exposition the character does need. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by Aeryn13

[7kstar]

ETA comment I was responding to:

 

Well from the deleted scenes and the capture of Rowena in EP3, I don't know what 'beans' are left to spill. That he's prayed to God? Hardly a betrayal. And Crowley looks like he tags up with the boys in EP2.

Dean, at least no later than EP3 will know Sam worked with Rowena and tried to kill Crowley. He already specifically knew of Charlie and Cas' involvement. Oscar's death? I doubt it'll be mentioned. But that's kinda a drop in the bucket.

 

  As Jensen relayed it, that decision point was NOT in the script but he placed it after Sam was on his knees and that the "Forgive Me." was that he was sorry for not going off with Death and ending this all.  By the time he answered the question, they had finished EP 4 and read EP 5.  If the writers had made some dialog that it was anything other than an intentional act by Dean to spare Sam, Jensen wouldn't have responded that way.  So, IMO, it's pretty unambiguous that Dean ACCEPTS what Sam has done and at a minimum and at least wants him to live.  It's only in fandom that people argue about Sam's failure to 'make a phone call'.  Personally, I'll be shocked if it's EVER mentioned.  I think the timing was near simultaneous and even a Winchester gets a pass for not having his full wits about him after accepting he's going to die, nearly being beheaded by his own brother, and seeing Death killed. 

 

because he was the one who re-awoken Cain's bloodlust in the first place. 

 

For EITHER Sam or Dean to sit and nitpick, who was more evil in S9 would be REALLY petty. Especially in light of the impending Apocalyptic Darkness and a "obvious" effect of Death's death.  Now both of them are certainly CAPABLE of petty... but they don't have time for this and neither probably has the stomach for it at this point. 

 

So... yes, many in fandom are upset that Sam didn't make a phone call in those final critical second.  I think that's a fandom issue and not a show concern.  Other than that -- both have "red on their ledger" as Black Widow would say (Avengers Shout Out!).  Moving forward with "let's just clean this up and pick thru the entrails of who did what." seems more probable than Dean fostering a resentment over Sam's actions IMO.

Jensen's comment that he talked with Cas and they are okay...tells me that they aren't going to do much on the boys blaming each other.  Too much blame to go around anyway.  If Dean hadn't saved Sam in season 9.  Taken on the mark and etc...There wouldn't have been a need to get rid of the mark.  Dean knows that Sam wouldn't give up if he could find a way to get rid of it.  He's already blamed Charlie's death on the book of the damned and confronted Sam about it.  If he wanted to fix it, he could have killed Sam and gone with Death.  He didn't.  So spell or no spell that is on Dean.  His main upset with Sam last time in season 5 was that Sam picked a demon over him.  That was the point he couldn't get past. 

 

People have trouble getting pass a betrayal...it takes time.

 

Jared has said that the boys keep reinventing their relationship.  He knows more now.  He knows he can't leave the life.  He also knows he needs his brother to do it.  So this one is so even, I don't see it being let's do 5 again.  I think it will have part of 4 and the boys trying to figure out what is happening...

 

But most of all I think the fandom is sick and tired of the boys fighting against each other.  I think TPTB know this.  I'm there will be some conflict in Dean wanting X & Sam wanting Y but that would be different.  I don't think Jensen would set up the fandom by saying the boys are united only to tell the story that they are blaming each other again.  I think he is smart enough to know what to say without giving the big surprises away. 

 

Eye opener had meaning after you saw it, but before it had lots of wiggle room.  JMV

[SueB]

With the way the episode played out, anyone who learned about the Darkness being released if the Mark was taken off Dean and didn`t immediately come out with "oh gee, I already have put a spell in motion to do so" fucked up. This is the absolute minimum I would expect from any character in that situation. I don`t care if the writers don`t have common sense and logical thinking.

I do expect that Dean either learns, on-or offscreen, in the Premiere how and why the MOC got removed from his arm. Currently he probably thinks that killing Death did it. How is he supposed to know about the spell? That is one piece of exposition the character does need.

First, Sam was not sure Death was a reliable witness. He was literally speaking about him in his presence. I would have expect Death to make him go poof right there and then if making Dean kill him wasn't more painful. Sam was unwilling to listen to any warnings. He even made the 'this is good' speech. To which Dean gave him the 'I already told you the Easter Bumlnny isn't real' face. Further, Sam was not up-to-the minute in synch. So even if he DID believe they should stop immediately, I think it's unrealistic to presume the ONLY thing one would do is make an immediate phone call. If you are unfamiliar with 'Fog of War', the concept by Clausewitz (not the movie), then perhaps my allowances for the effect of the heat of the moment may not make sense. Of course, I also consider myself both sane and logical so we may have to agree to disagree.

And, yes, Dean knew about the spell. He knew Charlie helped to diced her the spell (it's why she was thee) and Cas was helping. He told Sam to shut it down. That Sam didn't shut it down is fairly obvious because the Mark came off. There was no previous connection between the Matk and Death. I'm not sure why Dean would suddenly make that connection when the 'Sam didn't obey me' avenue seems far more likely.

Edited September 12, 2015 by SueB

[7kstar]

First, Sam was not sure Death was a reliable witness. He was literally speaking about him in his presence. I would have expect Death to make him go poof right there and then if making Dean kill him wasn't more painful. Sam was unwilling to listen to any warnings. He even made the 'this is good' speech. To which Dean gave him the 'I already told you the Easter Bumlnny isn't real' face. Further, Sam was not up-to-the minute in synch. So even if he DID believe they should stop immediately, I think it's unrealistic to presume the ONLY thing one would do is make an immediate phone call. If you are unfamiliar with 'Fog of War', the concept by Clausewitz (not the movie), then perhaps my allowances for the effect of the heat of the moment may not make sense. Of course, I also consider myself both sane and logical so we may have to agree to disagree.

And, yes, Dean knew about the spell. He knew Charlie helped to diced her the spell (it's why she was thee) and Cas was helping. He told Sam to shut it down. That Sam didn't shut it down is fairly obvious because the Mark came off. There was no previous connection between the Matk and Death. I'm not sure why Dean would suddenly make that connection when the 'Sam didn't obey me' avenue seems far more likely.

Sam hadn't been obeying Dean all season.  I don't have a problem with Sam not calling.  There was a lot going on.  I think that may have been missed by some of the fandom, that both things were happening at the same time.  You can't show it that way but I can go with the spell and Sam begging Dean not to go away with Death happened to close together.

 

Sam didn't obey Dean but he also pretty much told Dean he had to do anything he could to save him.  So for a moment he may have agreed to follow Dean's orders, but he had been disobeying Dean several times already.

 

Plus Charlie willingly put herself in danger.  The stupidity of how she left the safety net, still gets me so mad at the writers.  Charlie wasn't that naive.  She knew she was being chased.   I'm also tired of stupid Cas. 

 

But I think Dean without the mark will realize how he couldn't let Sam go either and did some really terrible things trying to save his brother.  I hope that they will go okay, we screwed up, killed people we loved...No longer will we let others in cause it's not safe for them to be around us...Time to clean this up.

 

I expect disagreements on cleaning it up.  I expect issues of older brother vs younger brother in solutions.

 

I also expect the big bad won't be more than the 6 or 7 eps as they have stated (I believe it was a interview with Singer.)  They follow a pattern.  The big bad showing up at the last minute was following the pattern.  Badly set up IMO, but it is still close to what they have done in the past.

 

This season will either make the show or break it.  It all depends on the execution of the ideas.  It does sound like they may have some good ideas...but I would rather be in low expectations and enjoy it vs have high hopes and be furious.  JMV

[Aeryn13]

 

So even if he DID believe they should stop immediately, I think it's unrealistic to presume the ONLY thing one would do is make an immediate phone call.

 

I didn`t mean that it is the only thing anyone would do, I meant it is the only thing I would accept from anyone without calling them an asshole. Sam in this moment knew the spell was set in motion. He may not have known at which stage but he knew it was happening on some level. Therefore, not even giving the slightest warning, not even trying, not even saying that, sorry, that makes him an asshole in that scene.

 

I don`t care if the scenes happen concurrently. If he tried and was too late and it couldn`t be stopped anymore, fine, that removes a lot of culpability. But not saying or trying anything? That is where his responsibility lies more than the stupid spell itself. . 

 

Dean and Death didn`t know. Sure, Dean can maybe extrapolate later but in this cantina scene, Dean did not in any way know that right now Rowena, Cas and Crowley were standing around a bowl of blood, ready to recite the spell. He couldn`t have known that. And killing Death is so radical, why wouldn`t he assume that it might remove the Mark? There were no previous correlations between the Mark and Death before, well, until two minutes previously, noone knew about this Darkness lock and key business either. If I were Dean in this scene, with the chronological order of events, I would assume I released the darkness via killing Death before jumping to spell-business, too. It`s not an out there assumption. So yeah, it`s something he needs to know specifically.

 

I question highly how Death didn`t know because isn`t he fucking omniscient? But he acted as dumb as a box of rocks.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

So... yes, many in fandom are upset that Sam didn't make a phone call in those final critical second.  I think that's a fandom issue and not a show concern.  Other than that -- both have "red on their ledger" as Black Widow would say (Avengers Shout Out!).  Moving forward with "let's just clean this up and pick thru the entrails of who did what." seems more probable than Dean fostering a resentment over Sam's actions IMO.

 

hink that may have been missed by some of the fandom, that both things were happening at the same time.  You can't show it that way but I can go with the spell and Sam begging Dean not to go away with Death happened to close together.

 

 

 

For me, it's a writing issue or an editing issue that has created this 'fandom issue" not something viewers just created out of thin air.

 

Maybe it was scripted and shot in such a way that everything was supposedly happening simultaneously so Sam just didn't have the time or was too traumatized to think straight and stop things, but IMO what ended up on screen was different than that.

 

It only takes seconds for Sam to call or text Cas with STOP EVERYTHING even if it was too late and there were seconds for him to do that both before and after Dean killed Death.

 

Yes, Sam is gobsmacked and WTFing over the place about the Darkness but he was asking rational, funny questions about sending Dean into outer space.  At that point I certainly didn't think Sam was so emotionally compromised that would he'd lose all thought of his years long mission (including right up to the minute Dean calls him) that he's spent researching, coordinating. preparing( to the degree that he just happened to carry a  bag of Dean's hair in his pocket, which ALL THE LOLZ forever) and enlisting others to his mission who died trying to complete the mission. all whilst lying to Dean about it. Especially when he's been given information that almost compels him to stop the spell for the good of humanity

 

I'd almost rather it have been that Sam was like "NOPE this is bullshit. I don't believe what Death said without more evidence. We're getting the Mark off of you anyway and Rowena is working on something." Oh look acknowledgment that it's happening but Sam is just flat out Scully'ing this instead of Mulder'ing because he needs proof. But IMO once they had him on his knees willing to sacrifice himself to stop Dean and because he apparently believed what Death said about the Darkness, he's STILL not remembering that there is still another way that the Mark can be removed and humanity is still in trouble.

 

They could have gotten to the same point and the blame game would have probably not even really raised it's head by just having Sam pick up the phone with the intention of stopping it but just fall short because it was too late. I think that "would have been okay, well shit, it's too late" but he tried.

 

That would have put both Sam and Dean on essentially the same level with Dean blaming himself for having ever taken on the Mark in the first place. Sam would blame himself for his actions that inadvertently released the Mark.  The problem is once they got to the point of Sam having the knowledge no one else had in that most critical moment they put the onus on Sam which is not a 'fandom issue'.

 

TPTB might want to be in denial that they wrote something so convoluted they had to screw with Sam's characterization to get there, then what do they expect viewers to think.So far, to me there is nothing satisfactory in Sam's "it's all my fault"  when they had the chance to have Sam TRY to stop instead of making it seem like "dumb emotional Sam just couldn't remember his year's long mission". 

 

Personally I think Jensen is spinning to protect the writers, Sam's characterization and the show in general. He'd already gone toe to toe with them about Charlie, and side-eyed the killing of Death as "wait, can we really do this?".  I suspect he wouldn't publicly challenge the entire finale about p(l)otholes you can drive the Impala through. And I  don't think he wants to add to the sam v dean kerfuffles that surely he knows exist

Edited September 12, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

 

I question highly how Death didn`t know because isn`t he fucking omniscient? But he acted as dumb as a box of rocks.

 

This is one of the reasons why I keep thinking that wasn't actual!Death. His behavior, his petty threats, his bringing this overly large scythe and handing it right over to Dean when Dean has lied to him in the past and was going to kill him before. It's like a bad version of Death.

[AwesomO4000]

I entirely agree, catrox14.

 

Sam's character is once again thrown under the bus due to writer incompetence (in my opinion), but instead of admitting it - or having bothered to guard against it in the first place - they'll just ignore it. It seems that in Carver's reign, it's perfectly okay to trash Sam's character for plot purposes as long as they get the big emotional "payoff" they apparently want, even when it would have been so easy to fix it - in most cases one line would've taken care of so much - but instead they'd rather not admit a mistake (or try not to make it in the first place) and let Sam's characterization take a huge hit instead. It annoys me greatly.

 

In my opinion, Carver is managing to turn Sam into an emotional cripple* who can't take charge of his own destiny or apparently even know or remember what he even wants.  This happened in all three seasons so far as far as I can tell. (Season 9's version was Sam's "I lied" which wiped away all his assurance that he would've done things differently and pretty much negated Sam's previous behavior and/or just made him either a jerk or a hypocrite, in my opinoin.)

 

At least Sam in seasons 1-7 knew what he wanted and did things which logically would get to that goal. Under Carver's reign, Sam has been all over the place, but as long as he forwards the plot via his often inconsistent behavior (and, in my jaded opinion, gives Dean his big emotional scenes), I guess Carver and the writers don't care all that much what they do to him or his character. What makes it worse is they often come "this close" to fixing it only to snatch it away and generally make it worse.

 

And as for whether or not Sam and Dean put this behind them or not to focus on the problem at hand, in my opinion, in Sam's case it's lose - lose either way at this point. If Dean is understandably angry, we'll relive season 5. If Dean isn't angry once he finds out about Rowena and Sam's stupidity, then he'll look like a saint in comparison for being so forgiving. He's the brother once again burdened with a stupid little brother who never listens to big brother's better advice and makes huge messes because of it and "sucks the life out of (his) life".

 

I don't think that this is necessarily a problem with my interpretation. This is what the writers give me - and not just with Sam. The writers have Castiel do the exact same thing, and once I see the 5th or 6th example of "Dean gives the correct advice, but X character or Y character doesn't listen and terrible things happen," I don't feel like if my conclusion is that apparently Dean is the only person the writers feel has any brains at all and/or isn't a jerk that this is just something I've come up with. And I think the fact that I saw this coming a mile away - in that I knew Sam was being set up to be the goat, and there was with no apparent attempt to even soften it with the suggestions catrox14 gave - kind of lends credence to my conclusions that Sam's characterization is apparently fair game for sacrifice for these writers. And it annoys me, because it's like they are saying to me that as long as Dean looks good, we don't care how Sam looks, and that is insulting, in my opinion, to those of us who love(d) Sam.

 

* (Or as my online buddy who I got into this show says - a wimp. He was shocked at what they did to Sam in season 8, and after seeing some episodes, he suddenly understood why I disliked the season.)

 

This is one of the reasons why I keep thinking that wasn't actual!Death. His behavior, his petty threats, his bringing this overly large scythe and handing it right over to Dean when Dean has lied to him in the past and was going to kill him before. It's like a bad version of Death.

 

Maybe apparently Death is also stupid in Carver's verse. Poor, stupid Death. Didn't see that Dean would kill him rather than Sam - what show has he been watching?

[Aeryn13]

 

Maybe apparently Death is also stupid in Carver's verse. Poor, stupid Death. Didn't see that Dean would kill him rather than Sam - what show has he been watching?

 

For me Death was already ruined in the Season 9 Premiere when Carver made him into Becky. So this seemed like a natural conclusion of the character. Even Death is literally too stupid to live.

 

That is why these days I cringe when characters get brought back under Carver. And why I wouldn`t want to see God in a million years on this show. Equally I don`t want John back. Or Mary. I mean, I don`t even want Dean back because of what Carvernatural keeps doing to him. But obviously, that ain`t happening. Leave at least some character who got out in a half-dignified way alone. 

[Omegamom]

Yeah, Death just gets finished saying that Sam would even find a way to rescue Dean from outer space ("BROTHERSSSSS IN SPAAAACE!!"), but, what, thinks Dean is so wrapped up in murderousness that he'll quietly go along with killing Sammy? The dude he WENT TO HELL FOR to ensure he was brought back to life?!? Oy.

[catrox14]

 

I don't think that this is necessarily a problem with my interpretation. This is what the writers give me - and not just with Sam. The writers have Castiel do the exact same thing, and once I see the 5th or 6th example of "Dean gives the correct advice, but X character or Y character doesn't listen and terrible things happen," I don't feel like if my conclusion is that apparently Dean is the only person the writers feel has any brains at all and/or isn't a jerk that this is just something I've come up with. And I think the fact that I saw this coming a mile away - in that I knew Sam was being set up to be the goat, and there was with no apparent attempt to even soften it with the suggestions catrox14 gave - kind of lends credence to my conclusions that Sam's characterization is apparently fair game for sacrifice for these writers. And it annoys me, because it's like they are saying to me that as long as Dean looks good, we don't care how Sam looks, and that is insulting, in my opinion, to those of us who love(d) Sam.

 

As annoying as it to have Sam be either an asshole or a dumbass, it looks like he's sending him on a redemption arc.  I don't think he's actively trying to throw one under the bus for the other, but if he's trying to get back s1/s2 or s4/s5 dynamic then he has to give Sam a redemption arc. I think that Sam's failures in the finale were to put him in that position. It was a lame way to do it, but there you go.  Dean fucked up by letting  Gadreel possess Sam out of love and Sam fucked up by removing the Mark from Dean out of love. And they both ignored the other person's agency to do so.  It's messed up and I don't think either one have yet grown from that.  Maybe we'll see it s11.  (fat chance)

 

But all that said, and controversial opinion ahead. I don't think Carver really gives a shit about Dean, Sam or to a lesser extent Cas only because he loves his angels. He knows people the majority of viewers watch for Dean and Sam but IMO he loves Crowley. He seems more animated when discussing Crowley than anyone else.  He talked about his favorite thing in s10 was the Crowley/Rowena dynamic even as Dean had the MoC and demon!Dean arc that was I'm sorry WAY MORE IMPORTANT than Crowley and Rowena. Even non-Dean fans would probably agree with that.  Sheppard doesn't become a series regular without Carver's permission and making space for Crowley to have 1/4 of the storyline that's not particularly related to the Winchesters. Now maybe that is planned so Jared and Jensen get more time off but it's still doing things to Dean and Sam's arcs by virture of his existence.

 

 

Crowley should have been dead already for what he's done to Dean and Sam and their friends. But he lives. He gets that huge scene in the s8 finale with Sam so that he becomes more human, more sympathetic. It feeds into the monster vs human thing that Carver is obsessed with.  He gave him a "drug" problem and mommy issues. "Allied" him with Dean which turned Dean into an asshole murdering murderer that murders and beats up the beloved Charlie and Cas. That's not a particularly pleasant point for Dean either.  And whether Dean or Sam were right or not or were the dumbest or the worst,  Crowley is the only one who is actually right about being Winchester'd and how they ruin peoples lives and now they've unleashed the Darkness.

 

So for me, both suffer because of more Crowley.  YMMV

 

ETA: And Cas...well he's just....floating....

Edited September 12, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

As annoying as it to have Sam be either an asshole or a dumbass, it looks like he's sending him on a redemption arc.  I don't think he's actively trying to throw one under the bus for the other, but if he's trying to get back s1/s2 or s4/s5 dynamic then he has to give Sam a redemption arc. I think that Sam's failures in the finale were to put him in that position. It was a lame way to do it, but there you go.  Dean fucked up by letting  Gadreel possess Sam out of love and Sam fucked up by removing the Mark from Dean out of love. And they both ignored the other person's agency to do so.  It's messed up and I don't think either one have yet grown from that.  Maybe we'll see it s11.  (fat chance)

I agree with you in that I don't think Carver is necessarily actively throwing Sam under the bus to make Dean look better per se - though in some ways it might make me feel better if he was doing that, because then it would be more of a flaw with Carver and not that he thinks this is the way Sam's supposed to be - but if not then to me it looks like he just doesn't care. Because if so many fans pick up on what seems to be inconsistencies in a character and can see right off that these things make him (Sam) look bad, how could the writers so easily not see it? (I mean in what universe would Sam shrugging his shoulders at Kevin being taken by Crowley - never mind not looking for Dean - be considered a good reflection on Sam's character? It boggles the mind, in my opinion.)

 

And I would be a little more hopeful if I had faith in Carver to give Sam that redemption, but just as he appears to do something like that, he messes it up... example, he gave Sam a sympathetic point of view in the beginning of season 9, where Sam was worried that something was wrong with him and wanted to avoid causing any more problems by messing with the natural order of things (i.e. being alive when he shouldn't) and then "The Purge" came along and then there was "I lied." So I wish I could be more hopeful that Carver will give Sam a redemption without him somehow making him look bad afterwards.

 

As for Gadreel and this...

 

Crowley should have been dead already for what he's done to Dean and Sam and their friends. But he lives. He gets that huge scene in the s8 finale with Sam so that he becomes more human, more sympathetic. It feeds into the monster vs human thing that Carver is obsessed with.  He gave him a "drug" problem and mommy issues. "Allied" him with Dean which turned Dean into an asshole murdering murderer that murders and beats up the beloved Charlie and Cas. That's not a particularly pleasant point for Dean either.  And whether Dean or Sam were right or not or were the dumbest or the worst,  Crowley is the only one who is actually right about being Winchester'd and how they ruin peoples lives and now they've unleashed the Darkness.

 

My turn to try to repay the favor: If it makes you feel any better, at least Dean somehow managed to do a bunch of good when he "fucked up" with Gadreel. Not only did Gadreel save a bunch of people, he helped Castiel save the world from Metatron. Without Gadreel sacrificing himself to break Cas out, that couldn't have happened.

 

And Dean at least had an excuse for being an "asshole murdering murderer who murdered" (bad people) and beat up Charlie and Cas by being a demon or influenced by a mark which drove Cain under similar circumstances to murder thousands upon thousands of people. Season 4 Sam was only blood addicted but still human when he was a murdering murderer who murdered (innocent people in his case) and beat up Dean and Bobby. And then on top of that Sam raised Lucifer and started that catastrophe where a bunch of other people were killed in the ensuing earthquakes, floods, firestorms, etc.

 

In the aftermath of Dean's bad decision to take the mark, it was still Sam who started the apocalypse, not Dean. So the end result of Dean's "bad decisions" helped to fix an apocalypse that Castiel started, got rid of Abaddon, and resulted in a few dead bad guys. The only real negative was Kevin and compared to all the negatives of Sam's "bad decisions" that is comparatively minor, in my opinion. So you can look at it as we have Sam and Castiel both starting two apocalypses each so far. At least Dean hasn't done that yet, no matter what bad decisions he made, and in many cases his "bad decisions" result in some good consequences (that almost never happens with Sam and Castiel - their bad decisions result in a large negative result return pretty much every time.)

 

 

I kind of agree with you about Carver and Crowley, though Carver managed to make Crowley look awful too - his killing Sarah and trying to kill Jodi was horrible - so I'm not sure why he wants us to root for Crowley either.

 

And I know that SueB is trying - and I appreciate it - I'm just not finding the silver lining at the moment. Maybe after I see the first few episodes, I'll feel better. But if we get more dumb Sam - and Carver's Sam is pretty dumb compared to previous Sams - who just buys that these visions are from God right away, I will not be encouraged.

[SueB]

 

Scully'ing this instead of Mulder'ing

I love these new verbs.  Can I use them?

 

 

and Carver's Sam is pretty dumb compared to previous Sams

I thought he was pretty clever when it came to handling Rowena and Metatron.  I still chuckle over him shooting him without preamble.

[catrox14]

Interesting Tweet from Serge

 

Serge Ladouceur ‏@SergeLadouceur 1h1 hour ago

Supernatural season 11 will be a great one. What we're cooking will blow your mind. There is a maturity to Spn and it will show. See ya soon
115 retweets 238 favorites

 

[AwesomO4000]

I thought he was pretty clever when it came to handling Rowena and Metatron.  I still chuckle over him shooting him without preamble.

 

I was thinking so, also, but in the end both Metatron and Rowena ended up on top and/or potentially outsmarting Sam. Metatron got away and with the tablet as a bonus, and Rowena convinced Sam to go kill Crowley or she wouldn't do the spell to save Dean, and when Sam did go, everything went south,* and then she killed someone while doing the spell, turned Castiel into one of her attack dogs... and escaped with both the Book of the Damned and the means to translate it. So in the end, both Metatron and Rowena ended up with almost everything they wanted from Sam, while Sam caused another apocalypse to be started out of it. For me, a smart plan isn't supposed to end any of those ways.

 

* And I still don't know if Rowena meant for that to happen or not - somehow even though Rowena was the one captured, she ended up in a win / win scenario. Either Crowley ended up dead - which she, I think, wanted - or her spell wouldn't work and Crowley might kill Sam. Either way, she wins. And then she further won by getting away with the book and the translator which she got Sam to go get for her.

Edited September 13, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[7kstar]

Jensen will always get some dramatic arch because he is good at delivering it.  Therefore, the angst will be created so he has a moment to give.

 

Jensen learned a lot from Dark Angel.  From what I could find and a few interviews, It was hell on wheels to work on that show.  He never wants that again, period.  Many point to infighting over who got the most lines and they even changed Jensen's character so that another actor could be the hero.  It just didn't work.

 

Jensen has stated he wants it to be fun.  He gets to do stunts, play with guns, and have dramatic and comic moments.  Does he agree with everything, I doubt it.

 

But I also think he doesn't add sunshine to deliberately set people up.  It may change but I think we will see some of the things he is talking about.  Otherwise, people will say he's just a liar  and I believe he is an honorable person.  I don't know Jensen, and yes he is willing to be in the supporting role.  But he has come out with at the beginning it was suppose to be all about Sam and Dean was the supporting role.  ETA:  I'm sure we will see Jensen has told us the truth but there may be some parts that are left out to be revealed later. 

 

Now has he wished things had gone a different direction, sure.  He's even said it.  But I think there is so much wiggle room for everything that has been given.  I don't expect a big arch for Dean right now.  But I do expect he will have something that is important even if the fans are in disagreement about that.

 

Most of all I expect the pattern of how they write the show to be the driving force.  Much like we want the 200th to be special and no Demon dean so they ended it sooner.  Had the 200th been a few eps later, it might have given a bit more time for the storyline, but I really think for the most part they do about 3 eps for myth arch, now oops time for a stand alone, and that drives it more than anything else.  JMV

Edited September 13, 2015 by 7kstar

[catrox14]

7kstar, wait a minute.

 

If you think I meant that Jensen as a human being lies in like his whole life, that's not at all what I was saying. I would have no idea at all if he was as I do not know him. I'm shocked that someone took my comment that way.  I did not, do not, have not ever, nor think now that Jensen Ackles is a lying liar as a person in his everyday life just because he trolls and obfuscates about the show details. He trolled us about the 9.23 finale with the whole "eye opener comment". He Tweets with pictures that implies things , like Purgatory. He trolls the fans with stuff about the show. We've seen him do it. And I think it's hilarious. 

 

So just wanted to clear that up.

[AwesomO4000]

And I'm not saying anything in that regard either. For the most part, I don't think either Jensen or Jared know exactly where things are going to go beyond the first 4 or 5 episodes right now. What Carver decides to do after that might be entirely different. For the first few episodes, it could very well be that the brothers are together with the goal of defeating the Darkness (for some reason I keep typing that as the Drakness, and am always tempted to leave it that way - heh), but then the writers might decide that once the Darkness is defeated, forced into hiding, goes underground, whatever, for a while that they need some drama in the meantime and so cause some sort of rift between the brothers or something, but that doesn't mean what Jensen is saying now is trying to mislead the fans. It just means that Carver may change the rules, tone, playbook later... and with the set up he's left here, I think it's going to be tough for him not to go to that ready made angst just lying there to be used, but instead find some new way of creating tension. For me, that's all going to be on the showrunner Carver as he's the one who calls the final shots.

 

I think Jared and Jensen only know what the situation is in the few episodes they know about so far (as far as I know anyway), so I don't expect them to be able to assure us of the situation for the whole season.

 

Sorry if I implied otherwise.

[7kstar]

And I'm not saying anything in that regard either. For the most part, I don't think either Jensen or Jared know exactly where things are going to go beyond the first 4 or 5 episodes right now. What Carver decides to do after that might be entirely different. For the first few episodes, it could very well be that the brothers are together with the goal of defeating the Darkness (for some reason I keep typing that as the Drakness, and am always tempted to leave it that way - heh), but then the writers might decide that once the Darkness is defeated, forced into hiding, goes underground, whatever, for a while that they need some drama in the meantime and so cause some sort of rift between the brothers or something, but that doesn't mean what Jensen is saying now is trying to mislead the fans. It just means that Carver may change the rules, tone, playbook later...

I've been dealing with a terrible migraine all day.  So to clear up my misunderstanding.  I don't think that Jensen would set up the fans for a story line they want to see, if something wasn't written in the script.  Will Jensen mislead to throw the fans off, of course.  But IA that he does it to have fun with the fandom. 

 

He has said over and over that it is a Season 1 & 2 with the boys on the same page.  How long they stay that way he has no clue.  The point I may have made badly was that he wouldn't lead the fans into a really false hope that they want if it didn't have any moments that could give that impression. 

 

He wanted the Demon story line to go longer but alas Carver did not.  He didn't give away that the demon story was over after 3 eps, but he didn't exactly say it continued either.  He knew how much the fans wanted Benny back.  Hence the picture to give the clue without really telling us yes...we are getting Benny back...just not the Benny you know.  Hopefully that clears up the miscommunication. 

 

I think Jensen wouldn't lead the fans on to a false hope.  He wouldn't have a problem teasing us.  So I fully expect to see the boys united.  The in fighting will come later when Carver decides they need the angst.  Does that clear that up?  He has to give just enough truth so the fans won't want to harm him later.  :)

Edited September 13, 2015 by 7kstar

[AwesomO4000]

So I fully expect to see the boys united.  The in fighting will come later when Carver decides they need the angst.

 

This is pretty much what I was trying to say above with my "what Carver decides to do after that (the first 5 or so episodes) might be entirely different," so I hope that's what you got out of what I said, also. If not, that is entirely what I meant.

[Omegamom]

At Dallas Con, Jared came out and directly said that Sam still has demon blood in him.

[Aeryn13]

I read that he said he THINKS Sam still has demon blood. Some retweeters ran with that and made it into a definitive statement. And from a report from his M&G later where he was asked if the "no demon blood and no vessel" thing was still true, he said that it was. 

 

So the tweets are very confusing. I would trust the M&G report more personally.  

[catrox14]

He was asking that question on Twitter awhile back whether Sam still, had demon blood in him. A great debate ensued. I don't think it's clear. So IMO something is going to come back to Sams demon blood. Theoretically he shouldn't because of the trials but he never finished the trials so maybe he still does.

[DittyDotDot]

It never was stated at any point the trials were actually purifying him, just that Sam thought they were. I always just assumed it was wishful thinking on Sam's part. Personally, I thought he must have been brought back from Hell without the demon blood taint. Like Dean was resurrected with all his scars healed. 

 

It could just be that Jared thinks Sam thinks he is still tainted. 

Edited September 13, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[trxr4kids]

It never was stated at any point the trials were actually purifying him, just that Sam thought they were. I always just assumed it was wishful thinking on Sam's part. Personally, I thought he must have been brought back from Hell without the demon blood taint. Like Dean was resurrected with all his scars healed. 

 

It could just be that Jared thinks Sam thinks he is still tainted. 

I've always thought that too. Just because Sam feels tainted doesn't mean he is.

[catrox14]

I never said it was stated outright that's what happened but it was what Sam said was happening to him. He felt he was being purified I always took that to mean he was being cleaned of his demon blood in some way through the trials. Conversely it's never been stated out right that Sam was free of demon blood when he was brought back from Hell either.  It's not clear either way. 

[trxr4kids]

 He felt he was being purified I always took that to mean he was being cleaned of his demon blood in some way through the trials. Conversely it's never been stated out right that Sam was free of demon blood when he was brought back from Hell either.  It's not clear either way. 

I always thought that Sam thinking the trials were purifying him was because he felt tainted by his misdeeds or sins(in his own mind) not because of the demon blood. How else could his blood cure a demon if he himself had demon blood. I do agree that it was unclear, that was just my take, mmv and all. I think many of the story arcs leave deliberate room for interpretation so that it causes controversy or debate among the fandom,which leads to interest, it seems to be working considering they keep increasing viewership.

[DittyDotDot]

I never said it was stated outright that's what happened but it was what Sam said was happening to him. He felt he was being purified I always took that to mean he was being cleaned of his demon blood in some way through the trials. Conversely it's never been stated out right that Sam was free of demon blood when he was brought back from Hell either.  It's not clear either way. 

 

I'm sorry catrox, I meant no offense, and was in no way saying your option wasn't valid or was wrong. Just offering another interpretation to the mix. 

[catrox14]

I just wanted to make clear I wasn't saying it was canon and no other viewpoint was possible. It's all good.

 

It's like the writers just can't commit!

[Mick Lady]

Thanks Dot and catrox. Really, Mick and I haven't had an argument in weeks, and now that I think of it, the last time I logged in here..

[Mick Lady]

I always thought that Sam thinking the trials were purifying him was because he felt tainted by his misdeeds or sins(in his own mind) not because of the demon blood. How else could his blood cure a demon if he himself had demon blood. I do agree that it was unclear, that was just my take, mmv and all. I think many of the story arcs leave deliberate room for interpretation so that it causes controversy or debate among the fandom,which leads to interest, it seems to be working considering they keep increasing viewership.

 

Excellent point trxr4kids!

 

Now I'm going to go fight with Mick on perception vs reality.

[Myrelle]

My first real post here. I've been checking in to see how everyone feels about the new season though. Wishing I could drum up some excitement for it after the intense disappointment of Dean losing the Mark in the finale and just when they introduced such a great backstory to it. I'm going to DVR to begin with because I'm just not thrilled at all with the spoilers we've gotten for Dean since Comic Con and he's the reason I'm still here and interested. Loved his supernatural connection to the myth-arc in s9 and 10 and not sure if I can continue watching if his role is just going to revert back to being strictly the chauffeur and everyone else's support system. The most recent Dean spoilers offered a little hope. I just hope that they were not more damage control than anything else. Mr. Ackles has always been especially clever with his wording, IMO. I'm trying to hold off on commenting in most places until the season starts but this prodded me to say something:

 

 

That would have put both Sam and Dean on essentially the same level with Dean blaming himself for having ever taken on the Mark in the first place. Sam would blame himself for his actions that inadvertently released the Mark.  The problem is once they got to the point of Sam having the knowledge no one else had in that most critical moment they put the onus on Sam which is not a 'fandom issue'.

 

TPTB might want to be in denial that they wrote something so convoluted they had to screw with Sam's characterization to get there, then what do they expect viewers to think.So far, to me there is nothing satisfactory in Sam's "it's all my fault"  when they had the chance to have Sam TRY to stop instead of making it seem like "dumb emotional Sam just couldn't remember his year's long mission".

 

I have to agree that in order for them to both carry a somewhat equitable amount of responsibility for releasing the darkness, the first statement here must be conveyed through the writing. Sam not being together enough at the time he learned the importance of the Mark is no more of an excuse than Dean taking on the Mark and choosing not to question all the ramifications while demons were breaking down the doors of Cain's house. I think that if we're going to be told that Dean will carry and own responsibility in that way, than true growth for the Sam character would have him carry and own his part in a similar fashion and with no half ways  about it. I feel that whatever words they choose to put in Sam's mouth specifics concerning what he's done wrong in the writing of the character are now more necessary than ever(and they should coming from Sam himself, IMO) in order to even start redeeming the character. "This is all my fault" is simply yet another vague and blanket statement that these writers have consistently used to absolve Sam of everything and anything that he's ever done wrong. And it has never worked for me in the past, so why would it now.

 

Regardless of the words they put in Dean's mouth in any of these brotherly talks we might get, it is the Sam character who needs the writing to be there for him more, IMO. I personally feel that I need to hear Sam admit that he should have listened to Dean about the Book of the Damned and yes, put a stop to the spell(and yes, just as Dean admitted that going to Cain and taking on the Mark might not have been the best thing to do; and even though Dean's intentions were also good-to rid the world of Abaddon and the threat she posed to humanity) AND I need him to recant the Purge speech entirely-including and especially the part about his belief that he wouldn't go to similar lengths and ends to save his brother-because he clearly did in S10-and then some. There can be no redemption within the brothers' relatinshp for me if these things aren't addressed by the writing for the character and without any of the usual "but it's kind of your fault too for pushing/making me to do these things, Dean"-or as DemonDean so nastily put it-for using Dean as a reason to not man-up concerning Sam's own faults and flaws and mistakes.

[catrox14]

Glad you came out of lurkdom, Myrelle. Hope you stick around!

or as DemonDean so nastily put it-for using Dean as a reason to not man-up concerning Sam's own faults and flaws and mistakes.

Taking my reply to the bitterness thread. Proceed with caution.

[SueB]

https://twitter.com/Lin_Da74/status/643939317807775744/photo/1

 

Best part IMO:
 

 

"Whether or not God finally shows up to save the day, Carver promises the siblings will be truly united this season. 'They have a come-to-Jesus moment about who thy are and what they stand for moving forward,' he says.

[catrox14]

My bittercakes are stacked high and will need a lot of maple syrup for me to think Dean is going to have anything important to do here. A spoiler about Dean having premonitions IMO will go no more than one episode.

 

I really am not thrilled with the idea of a "come to Jesus" moment because I think it's going to end up that Dean returns to his support Sammy mode and that's it. Also, they better not sideline Cas to make sure the boys are united

[7kstar]

I won't be happy if Dean's storyline is once again, not much...

 

but the question I wonder...why are Sam and Dean near the impala with a wheelchair?

What does that picture mean?  Of all the pics they could use?

 

I'm still hoping...maybe slightly Pollyanna that the reason we aren't getting that much is because they are sitting on something really cool..."I wish"  (Maybe I've watch "into the woods once too many times.  Stage version not movie.)

[SueB]

Catrox: To sweeten your bittercakes, go to the 15 min mark and watch.....

 

 

...you're welcome.

[catrox14]

I appreciate the link.  But I'm not gonna lie. I don't like the way the car wash scene sounds. So Dean's washing Baby in the bunker garage. Jared says he "saw more of Jensen's inner thigh than I would have preferred" and talks about Dean's outfit. Dean isn't going to be washing Baby in the nude. If he's in t-shirt and jeans, or shirtless with jeans, I'm all for that. Even if he's wearing his MoL robe that would be fine. But I suspect it's going to be some kind of slapstick humiliate!Dean comedy. 

 

 

I'm more laughing at Jensen' being such a dirty bird with when Jared says his alarm clock is "Daddy, daddy, daddy" HOLY SHIT! LOLOLOL

Edited September 16, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

I'm more laughing at Jensen' being such a dirty bird with when Jared says his alarm clock is "Daddy, daddy, daddy" HOLY SHIT! LOLOLOL

 

You know, I don't quite get the joke.  I know it's supposed to be something sexual... but was he suggesting Jen calls him Daddy in some sort of role play?  Is it worse than that?  I feel stupid. 

[catrox14]

Do you mean Gen(Genevieve) calls him Daddy or that Jen(sen) calls him Daddy?  (just kidding, or am I??? I am....probably...but sometimes...things that make you go hmmmm.)

 

It was a reference to calling someone Daddy whilst in flagrante, at times involving...spanking or what have. I personally don't get that kink myself but hey whatever floats your boat. 

 

But I nearly died when he said that. I think Jensen embarrassed himself. And really how often is Jared the better behaved ? LOL

 

Dirty boy

Edited September 16, 2015 by catrox14