Spoilers With Speculation

SueB · January 30, 2015

promo photos

http://www.winchesterbros.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=999&pid=249525#top_display_media

7kstar · January 30, 2015

Seriously. If they don't bring up Dean's abduction, I will be really annoyed. But then why would I be surprised...

I'm hoping they say something, but then again this entire ep just gave every fanfiction writer canon permission to write de-aged Dean stories. For some reason they talk certain things to death and skip the things that really need to have some discussion.

On the Promo

Why am I singing the "Wheels on the Bus goes round and round"? Did love Dean's reaction to the guy, especially "don't say it."

My question I also want to see is Sam having to figure out how to deal with a teenager. I mean Dean did it for him, so I want me some "Payback!"

Edited January 30, 2015 by 7kstar

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

I thought this was going to be adult Dean in his teen body?

SueB · January 30, 2015

I thought this was going to be adult Dean in his teen body?

It is. But imagine the hormones of a teenage body flowing thru an adult Dean mind. Thank goodness at 14 he's jailbait (and probably motivated to solve the problem at hand). Then again, the Mark amps him up...so, not sure how much different it'll be. I just know that a teenager's brain has not quite got impulse control developed yet.

Edited January 30, 2015 by SueB

Demented Daisy · January 30, 2015

http://tvline.com/2015/01/30/nashville-season-3-rayna-deacon-spoilers/

Can you give us anything on Supernatural‘s Sam? —Maria

“We probably will not see flashbacks” from the Winchesters’ time apart, executive producer Jeremy Carver admits. But there’s still a big Sammy story brewing. “What starts as a desire to help Dean [sends] Sam on very much his own journey by season’s end. But the starting off point is most definitely, ‘How am I going to help my brother?'”

Will Supernatural‘s Word of God tablet storyline be revisited this season? –Tom

When we delivered your Q to showrunner Jeremy Carver, he had an intriguingly cryptic reply: “There are a couple tablets out there… I can’t say right now. Good question.”

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

Bleh. Dark!Sam is on his way. I'll bet dollars to donuts.

So we lose demon!Dean because the boys had to get back together for the 200th and hunt and be a team again but now Sam is going to get be separated from Dean as a result of him trying to save Dean?

It's gonna be an Abel parallel, right?

Crack theory is that Sam finds Cain without Dean. Cain tells Sam that if Sam wants the Mark himself, that it will power down Dean's bloodlust. Sam will be convinced he can handle it because he's drank the demon blood before. And we end the season with Sam turning into a demon too. Then Dean will have to de-demon Sam

rue721 · January 30, 2015

If Sam is on his own journey at the end of the season, where does Dean go? How do they get separated in the first place?

I doubt that either of them end the season as a demon, since they already did that in S9, but...who knows.

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

doubt that either of them end the season as a demon, since they already did that in S9, but...who knows.

Repetitive stories have never stopped these writers before.

Sam dies in s2 and Dean dies in s3. Dean goes to Hell in s3 and Sam goes to Hell in s5. Sam was soulless, Dean was gets a twisted soul. Dean went to Purgatory, Sam went to Purgatory. Sam had demon blood, Dean has the MoC. The only thing they haven't done is have Dean be an angel.

So maybe we end up with Cas possessing Dean (I think you mentioned that before) and becomes an angel to save Sam. Or something

Aeryn13 · January 30, 2015

I don`t think they get separated, Sam will just have - another - story of his own. Dean is right now having a story of his own and they are physically together. Carver just put the kibosh on more flashbacks to earlier of the Season. Which IMO is a good thing because if Lester was supposed to have been the worst, the other stuff could only be more redundant. And while I would have liked to have seen more of Demon!Dean, doing so in a flashback would also be redundant.

For me it depends if Carver means an actual story here or like he said in other interviews a purely emotional one about Sam questioning his beliefs and how dark he is willing to get. Now to facillitate that, he will of course have to do dark things in the first place but maybe not be another version of supernatural mytharc-Sam.

If Carver only means the latter, then fine, anyone is welcome to emo-babble storylines as far as I`m concerned. Just keep them away from Dean and keep him with the mytharc. If it`s however another huge epic Sam-story, then yeesh, not even one year as purely the support compared to Dean`s multiple ones?

The only thing they haven't done is have Dean be an angel.

I`d be up for that with flying colours, of course. Certainly, there is some new angel they could bring in for that. Or get Michael back. He was cool in young!John and a weak whiner in Adam. Make something right and gibe Jensen a chance to play the character he should have played a long time ago.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Aeryn13

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

I guess I'm just jaded because of the dumping of Dean's vessel SL and the dumping of Dean's trial stuff, and even the dumping of demon!Dean. So I fully expect Dean's mytharc to be dumped in the next couple of episodes.

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

I`d be up for that with flying colours, of course. Certainly, there is some new angel they could bring in for that. Or get Michael back. He was cool in young!John and a weak whiner in Adam. Make something right and gibe Jensen a chance to play the character he should have played a long time ago.

Oh that would be interesting for Dean to be Michael at long last. Ohhhh maybe that is how he loses the Mark. Maybe Sam and Dean have to jump into the pit together and kill Lucifier to get rid of the mark but he can't because he wouldn't have the strength with just the Mark. He would need Michael's strength....oooooh.....

rue721 · January 30, 2015

Oh that would be interesting for Dean to be Michael at long last. Ohhhh maybe that is how he loses the Mark. Maybe Sam and Dean have to jump into the pit together and kill Lucifier to get rid of the mark but he can't because he wouldn't have the strength with just the Mark. He would need Michael's strength....oooooh.....

Oh yeah, I like that idea! I mean the idea that, to get rid of the Mark (or, if the Mark's power comes from Lucifer, to at least stem its power) Dean has to kill Lucifer, so he has to finally become Michael's vessel in order to be strong enough to do that.

Usually I hate angel SLs, but...That one would be fun. I really want them to kill Lucifer and imo it would make sense for Dean to do it since they usually trade off in terms of killing each others' mortal enemies (like Sam killing Alastair, Dean killing Ruby, etc). I hope that Sam would be there for it, though. LOL and I have to say that I have no idea what Sam's storyline over hiatus would be if the season ends with Dean as Michael's vessel.

I'm not sure if Castiel can possess anyone anymore, because he's got his own personal meatsuit now? He's not "wearing" Jimmy anymore, that's just his body.

Hey, what happens to angels when they die? Like, where is Gadreel now? If they're killed by an angel blade, I think their souls just sort of incinerate or something (since that's what I thought happened to demons killed with the demon blade), but if they're killed by other means...? (With the First Blade, for example).

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

I figure they went to Heaven but since Heaven is closed except elevator travel they might be int he veil?

Here's a question...if an angel commits suicide do they get back into Heaven? Is suicide a sin in the SPN universe?

rue721 · January 30, 2015

I figure they went to Heaven but since Heaven is closed except elevator travel they might be int he veil?

Here's a question...if an angel commits suicide do they get back into Heaven? Is suicide a sin in the SPN universe?

That's why I wonder about Gadreel in particular (well, also because I like Gadreel and wish he were back) -- he committed suicide, so where did he go? And is Heaven open now anyway? Where is Kevin atm?

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

They can get to Heaven via the playground portal. But I think that's not readily accessible for all the angels only the ones that know the portal exists....I think.

rue721 · January 30, 2015

I feel so terrible for Mrs. Tran living with the ghost of her son, who is connected to her late husband's ring. I mean, how lonely is that? And is Kevin slowly going insane from being a ghost? (ETA: if Heaven still isn't really open, I mean. That playground door doesn't seem to get much use). Terrible.

What is with SPN and just dropping the most interesting story threads. Like, if they had a finale that tied up stuff with Kevin, Lucifer, John, Gadreel, whatever is going on with at least Gordon in Purgatory... I would love it! Because there are SO MANY unanswered questions. Ah well. I'm ready for a pretty crazy reset on this show. Just because of my personal taste, I think it would be kind of fun if Dean were a demon next season and John came back, and John and Sam had to hunt Dean. Idk, something off the wall like that.

Hell, I'd be happy for Ronald to be back. LOL I want Ronald and Henriksen to both come back and become a hunting team. OK will stop with the ridiculous ideas. (That I really wish would happen, though).

Edited January 30, 2015 by rue721

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

I want demon!Dean back. It's so fucked up that I even want this. I mean y'all know my apoplexy when that happened. But fucking Jensen sold me on that m'fer demon!Dean and I want more of that but with more badassery just not hedonism.

Victor Henrikisen: Ghost!Hunter

rue721 · January 30, 2015

I know, I'm really curious about demon!Dean now, too!

I thought the SL would be boring and silly, but demon!Dean turned out to be pretty interesting! It was how he was with Ann Marie, Sam, and Cole that left me intrigued. He was so low key? Idk, when he was pouring himself that drink in Reichenbach and Sam was just standing there with the handcuffs in his hand not even bothering to bullshit him -- I thought that was a really great scene.

Plus, how did he become a demon? What does it mean that he was a demon possessing his own body? How does the First Blade fit into things? Is he alive now or it is the Mark just keeping him alive? Does he have super-healing now, from the Mark? So many straight up mythology questions that I'm genuinely curious about.

Also, if they're going to have a lead be a demon, can he please do interesting demon stuff? Like go into Hell at least. And I loved the creepy demon roars when they were pouring holy water on him, I want more of that! And I SOOOOOO want demon!Dean to flaunt himself in front of his parents because they would go freaking ballistic. Would John kill him? Sam's reaction was interesting, but I want it to also be contrasted with someone else's reaction and for him to genuinely have to work *with* someone to get Dean back to normal (so we can see Sam working in a team with someone aside from Dean).

Idk, I think it's a really fascinating storyline, I wish they would go back to it, there's so much more to see. But I think they're worried about showing Dean do anything too horrible? But he seems more like he's coldly cruel as a demon than that he's someone who would run amok, so I don't actually think they'd have to show him do anything too brutal per se -- just stuff that's chilling and a mindfuck, like they seemed to be trying to show at the beginning of the season.

Also probably the thing that I like best about Dean is that imo he's clever and is pretty good at putting together the big picture, so to see that turned up a few notches with him as a demon was/would be really interesting/trippy and fun imo.

Fingers crossed. Do you think that he will become a demon again, really? I actually do think so, since the response to the early episodes was good (they might have been testing the waters with that early arc?)...but they're sure taking their time about it, so who knows.

AwesomO4000 · January 30, 2015

If Carver only means the latter, then fine, anyone is welcome to emo-babble storylines as far as I`m concerned. Just keep them away from Dean and keep him with the mytharc. If it`s however another huge epic Sam-story, then yeesh, not even one year as purely the support compared to Dean`s multiple ones?

Eh, Sam had multiple support arc/seasons as well in my opinion. Even though Sam had the supposed psychic visions, he was also supporting (or trying to support) Dean through John's death and that whole emotional fallout in season 2. Then there was season 3, and in my opinion most of season 7. Sam was the crazy one, but he was actually the one doing the emotional support thing in my opinion except for a brief stint near the end. As for season 4, I didn't think anyone was really supporting anyone in that season, and season 5 started out Sam supporting Dean and trying to get his trust back for more than 3/4 of the season and Dean... somewhat reluctantly working with Sam for the most part. Things didn't change up until the end of the season. Much of season 6 and the second half of season 8 was definitely Dean support, season 9 was a big emotional mess with no one supporting anyone again in my opinion, and now we're back to Sam.

If Sam is on his own journey at the end of the season, where does Dean go? How do they get separated in the first place?

"By seasons end" I think are the operative words. I don't think anything - if anything even does happen - will happen until the end of the season.

Usually I hate angel SLs, but...That one would be fun. I really want them to kill Lucifer and imo it would make sense for Dean to do it since they usually trade off in terms of killing each others' mortal enemies (like Sam killing Alastair, Dean killing Ruby, etc).

Except Dean also got to kill quite a few of his own mortal enemies. He personally killed Zachariah and Dick Roman. And Abaddon. He also helped kill Azazel - who was arguably just as much a mortal enemy of Sam's as he was of Dean (maybe if not more so). Arguably Sam did get to kill Lilith, but that turned out to be a big screw you to Sam, so I'm reluctant to even count that. I would be annoyed if Dean killed Lucifer on his own actually, because I think Sam should get to kill at least one of his mortal enemies and have a good result from it.

I hope that Sam would be there for it, though. LOL and I have to say that I have no idea what Sam's storyline over hiatus would be if the season ends with Dean as Michael's vessel.

Based on show history since season 5, Sam being there would be a huge improvement, since he hasn't been for at least half of the finales or the aftermaths, or if he has been - season 6 and season 8 - it's been to fail at doing something. Wait that applies to many of the early seasons as well. *sigh*

And I join you in wondering about the storyline. I'm not expecting much. So far there hasn't even been a minor victory really since the werewolves in was that episode 4? And before that probably the soul-stealing episode in season 9.

Edited January 30, 2015 by AwesomO4000

Demented Daisy · January 30, 2015

I want them to come up with something interesting and, more importantly, original. I'm tired of them rehashing story lines.

rue721 · January 30, 2015

I would mostly want Sam to see Lucifer killed so he knows in his bones that Lucifer's dead. Personally, I don't care who actually puts Lucifer (or anyone) down. But tbh that's just how I am irl, too -- couldn't care less who does something as long as it's done. So YMMV.

But what would happen to Lucifer if he died? Would he just go to Heaven because he's an angel? Or is Heaven closed and so he'd just be back on Earth? (D'oh!)

I want them to come up with something interesting and, more importantly, original. I'm tired of them rehashing story lines.

Agreed, though imo it would be fun if they threw an old wrench into the works in order to change the dynamic. Because there are still so many story threads that I find interesting but that the show just dropped.

What I wish for SPN is that it would take some bigger risks. It seems so cautious. I feel like Carver (or whoever) doesn't actually know why the show works and so he's really cautious about taking things in any (new) direction. It's so dull. There are so many really interesting ideas and places the show could go imo but it stays in this holding pattern out of caution/fear. Usually, I'd be like "if it ain't broke...." but I feel like after 10 freaking years, SPN actually has a lot of slack with its audience and could go delightfully batshit without alienating viewers. Idk, do you think that's the case? Or do you think the caution is warranted? I mean, meanwhile, the show *is* doing well in terms of ratings, so...

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

Fingers crossed. Do you think that he will become a demon again, really? I actually do think so, since the response to the early episodes was good (they might have been testing the waters with that early arc?)...but they're sure taking their time about it, so who knows.

I have irrational hope to see demon!Dean again because Dean's hair is getting longer. But sadly I suspect we won't because....how do they explain it? I think Dean would have to actually die again to make the demon come back out.

ALTHOUGH I totally fanwank that demon!Dean chose to go dormant because of that GREAT ambiguous expression of annoyance when Sam cured him.

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

I think many think that turning Dean into a demon was batshit crazy....so if they accepted that I think they (we) could accept a lot of things. I was thinking last night what if they made both Dean and Sam into demon!Hunters. Not demon hunters. But demons that hunted humans. Heh. That would be cray cray

Demented Daisy · January 30, 2015

I feel like they're resting on their laurels. Instead of coming up with something new and different, they're sticking to what the fans like.

I'm tired of secrets and lies and ANGST. I'm tired of trying to figure out which character is going to "go darkside" this season. I'm tired of angel wars. I'm tired of having one enemy in Hell and one in Heaven.

You know why S7 is the best post-S5 season for me? The Leviathan. They were different. It's why I speculated that Rowena would lead the witches in a revolt against demons -- instead of internal conflict, Team Free Will had an enemy they could work together against. After they figured out who was the bigger threat. Enemy of my enemy and all that. Imagine Dean working with witches. Makes me smile.

But instead, it looks like Sam is going to dabble in darkness and they'll probably team up with Crowley to keep him King of Hell. Again.

rue721 · January 30, 2015

ALTHOUGH I totally fanwank that demon!Dean chose to go dormant because of that GREAT ambiguous expression of annoyance when Sam cured him.

Yeah, when Soul Survivor aired, I was like, "pffffffft, you guys believe this ~cure~ bullshit? FOOLS!" But then I was wrong and apparently Dean was cured? LOL whoops.

I still think that Sam did the cure procedure wrong by not using his own blood. But at the same time, I don't think that Dean is actually faking now, because what kind of weirdo pointless long con would that be? So I think maybe Soul Survivor was just poorly written and I personally have trust issues *shrug*

I think many think that turning Dean into a demon was batshit crazy....so if they accepted that I think they (we) could accept a lot of things. I was thinking last night what if they made both Dean and Sam into demon!Hunters. Not demon hunters. But demons that hunted humans. Heh. That would be cray cray

DUDE that is exactly where I thought they were going! I figured, if Dean liked hunting when he wasn't a demon, then he would LOVE it as a demon -- why would he give up on all that killing once he went black eyes? I figured he would maybe hunt humans, too (hunters, at least), but let's face it, humans aren't actually ~the most dangerous prey~ in SPN's world, so monsters would probably still be pretty fun for him, too. And Sam's a legit good hunter and he and Dean legit work well together, so I figured that either demon!Dean would want to hunt Sam for the challenge and fun of that, and/or he'd want to team up with demon!Sam.

But instead he just hung out drinking piss beer with Crowley. And ~tormented~ people by singing crummy karaoke. Which IS obnoxious and kind of makes me laugh, but I don't think it's demon-level obnoxious. Bah.

I feel like they're resting on their laurels. Instead of coming up with something new and different, they're sticking to what the fans like.

I'm tired of secrets and lies and ANGST. I'm tired of trying to figure out which character is going to "go darkside" this season. I'm tired of angel wars. I'm tired of having one enemy in Hell and one in Heaven.

IA, you're probably right and it's lack of creativity rather than fear. What's frustrating imo is that there is SO MUCH material to use. There is no reason that the show has to feel so *small* all the time. I mean "small" in terms of always having this hyper focus on the Winchesters, to the point that they have (corny) catch phrases and characters say things like, "because you're a Winchester" or whatever, and the side characters are either dead or these spun-sugar creations that will never do anything shocking. It's suffocating.

I mostly want the world of the show to open up more and feel much bigger and more chaotic, and for Sam and Dean to not seem like the center of SPN's universe. I want something fresh. But tbh I found demon!Dean fresh -- he felt like a new character, to me, and an interesting one. And people seemed to like that! I mean, I think people found it pretty crazy, but crazy in a good way. Yet he still vanished in a heartbeat? If they don't bring him back, I guess that they really *like* the holding pattern and would prefer to stay in it rather than to try anything new -- even something that seemed like it was working for the audience (like demon!Dean).

Do you guys think Carver will be back as showrunner for S11? I've been thinking that he wouldn't be, because he was always talking about his plan through S10, etc. But just realized that my assumption that SPN would get a new showrunner next season is basically groundless, lol.

catrox14 · January 30, 2015

I think Sam and Dean HAVE to be the center of the SPN universe or I won't watch. I personally LOVED the Apocalypse arc over s4 and s5 because it was epic. But I LOATHED the ending. I LOVED the Leviathan arc because epic-adjacent.

And there is so much mythology to build on. I could live with more shapeshifter stories, I could live with more demon!Dean being a Knight of Hell and killing off Metatron and as long as he's going to eventually be cured or die a demon but in a heroic way. I want Cas to have something meaningful to do. Crowley can go fuck off with his mother.

I just want Edlund back. He got lazy at the end but maybe now he'll be refreshed and renewed. I think he would write an amazing demon!Dean. I generally like the way Edlund wrote Dean. I think Carver should just write again because I think doing both is not working in his favor. I wonder if J2 will get producer credits next season.

Edited January 30, 2015 by catrox14

DittyDotDot · January 30, 2015

Do you guys think Carver will be back as showrunner for S11? I've been thinking that he wouldn't be, because he was always talking about his plan through S10, etc. But just realized that my assumption that SPN would get a new showrunner next season is basically groundless, lol.

I've been wondering about that myself because he's supposed to be adapting Frequency for NBC, too. I realize that could take a while and maybe it will never come to fruition, but I wondered anyway.

SueB · January 31, 2015

secrets and lies

This triggers my Smallville PTSD. I'm going to have to drown myself in a vat of wine now. *shudders*

AwesomO4000 · January 31, 2015

I think many think that turning Dean into a demon was batshit crazy....so if they accepted that I think they (we) could accept a lot of things. I was thinking last night what if they made both Dean and Sam into demon!Hunters. Not demon hunters. But demons that hunted humans. Heh. That would be cray cray

Somewhat off topic for a moment warning: I read an interesting fanfiction where Dean and Sam decided to stay dark in season 4. Sam didn't want to give up demon blood, Dean didn't want to give up torturing, so they decided to go dark together, but since they weren't quite demons (Sam was only demon-ish) they didn't kill people, they killed - wait for it - demons who'd fallen out of favor. So basically the hell brass sent them demons who they wanted to "off." Dean tortured them, Sam drank their blood. Poor stupid demons who thought they were being sent on a mission to kill Sam and Dean were actually being sent to the slaughter. Otherwise the brothers continued hunting as usual. It was actually a fairly entertaining idea/concept... But definitely not something the show would ever do. Heh.

You know why S7 is the best post-S5 season for me? The Leviathan. They were different. It's why I speculated that Rowena would lead the witches in a revolt against demons -- instead of internal conflict, Team Free Will had an enemy they could work together against.

Exactly. I'll never get why Carver decided to throw that all away and go for the "internal" brotherly angst conflict that he had to partially manipulate / manufacture (in my opinion) anyway to get there when the story finally had the brothers to the point where they were on the same page and fighting the enemy together. Bah.

catrox14 · January 31, 2015

I've said it before and I'll say it until Carver no longer is showrunner but his focus on the brotherly angst and the monsters in the human and vice versa is a carry over from his Being Human days. It's interesting to him but not to me. Not as a basis for an entire show. There is a reason I dumped his version of Being Human....(I did watch the British version until it's end...for what reason I don't know).

Aeryn13 · January 31, 2015

Eh, Sam had multiple support arc/seasons as well in my opinion.

I`m talking JUST supporting and emo and not having also something supernatural about himself: no visions, no Boyking, no demon blood powers, no Lucifer hellucinations, no soullessness/wall in your head, no angel-dom, nothing. A character that has no longterm supernatural arc (no matter how much it is onscreen or well it is executed, it is enough that it is there) in a Season. This is the first time in the entire show that this is true for Sam. For Dean it was true in Season 1,2,6 and 7. I`m gracious in counting the first two episodes Purgatory flashbacks here for Season 8 or that one would go into the mix.

So my point was did Carver mean they will not allow one Season of 22-23 episodes to go by without giving Sam a supernatural condition, not just for a one-off episode but as an arc? Or was he talking about just emo?

DittyDotDot · January 31, 2015

I've said it before and I'll say it until Carver no longer is showrunner but his focus on the brotherly angst and the monsters in the human and vice versa is a carry over from his Being Human days. It's interesting to him but not to me. Not as a basis for an entire show. There is a reason I dumped his version of Being Human....(I did watch the British version until it's end...for what reason I don't know).

Because the British version was far more interesting, better written and far less of a soap opera. Although, I didn't watch it after they changed the entire main cast, but up till that point I thought it was a fairly good show. US version...eh, blatant copyism at first, then a really boring monster soap opera, IMO.

Anyhoo, I think the "whose the real monster" stuff has always been an underlying theme of Supernatural--so has the brotherly angst--and I don't think it's a bad premise for a show, but it's all in what you do with those themes, IMO. Carver's exploration of "who's the real monster" hasn't really wowed me because he keeps pulling his punches and nothing Sam or Dean do is actually all that monstrous in the grand scheme of things. And his version of brotherly angst is simply petty little jerks, IMO.

I`m talking JUST supporting and emo and not having also something supernatural about himself: no visions, no Boyking, no demon blood powers, no Lucifer hellucinations, no soullessness/wall in your head, no angel-dom, nothing. A character that has no longterm supernatural arc (no matter how much it is onscreen or well it is executed, it is enough that it is there) in a Season. This is the first time in the entire show that this is true for Sam. For Dean it was true in Season 1,2,6 and 7. I`m gracious in counting the first two episodes Purgatory flashbacks here for Season 8 or that one would go into the mix.

So my point was did Carver mean they will not allow one Season of 22-23 episodes to go by without giving Sam a supernatural condition, not just for a one-off episode but as an arc? Or was he talking about just emo?

I suspect Sam will have no supernatualness to him, but will probably do something more akin to Dean selling his soul back in S2. I'm guessing he makes a bad deal or heads down a bad road or simply goes off the rails--like he did in Mystery Spot--but I suspect it won't result in him having some power or something. Personally, I could care less if its supernatural or not, I'm just enjoying Sam being more Sam-like than he's been in years. Now, if we could just get Dean back to being more Dean-like, I'd be in a very happy place.

Aeryn13 · January 31, 2015

Now, if we could just get Dean back to being more Dean-like, I'd be in a very happy place.

While he isn`t happy-go-lucky at the moment for storyline reasons, I don`t think he is un-Dean-like per se. When Sam was amped up on demon blood, I didn`t find it very appealing because it amped up character traits I didn`t find appealing in the first place. But I still thought he was Sam-like, just overblown due to a supernatural condition. Same with Dean right now, he is not per se kill-crazy but he is a warrior and the MOC brings those qualities into overdrive. And I do enjoy the badassery of it. However, any qualities, good or bad, brought up to excess are no good in the end IMO.

Now I don`t mind the current darkness. I thought Cain was a wonderful guest star character and he appeared balaned and at peace with himself but that is the gravitas I expect from someone who lived for thousands of years. You can`t aquire that sort of life experience any other way than living it. That`s why I wouldn`t expect current!Dean to be just like Cain. If he lived another 5000 years or so, then yes, I would.

What I would hope happens when that storyline is finished is for Dean to reach balance in his own way. Being a warrior is fine, it is not being a killer and it is not being evil (no matter what the simplistic nepotism duo thinks) and coping mechanisms like enjoying the good stuff in life: sex, fun, burgers etc is also nothing bad or emotionally unhealthy, in fact it is perfectly healthy for a certain lifestyle to have on little pressure valves all the time. He just needs to realize all that and then there would be no more excess angst over it. As for the family codependency, that would also need to go but he was actually on a pretty good way to cut the umbilical cord in the first half of Season 8 and got dragged back kicking and screaming in the latter as punishment so I don`t get Carver`s point there.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Aeryn13

catrox14 · January 31, 2015

Because the British version was far more interesting, better written and far less of a soap opera. Although, I didn't watch it after they changed the entire main cast, but up till that point I thought it was a fairly good show. US version...eh, blatant copyism at first, then a really boring monster soap opera, IMO.

Anyhoo, I think the "whose the real monster" stuff has always been an underlying theme of Supernatural--so has the brotherly angst--and I don't think it's a bad premise for a show, but it's all in what you do with those themes, IMO. Carver's exploration of "who's the real monster" hasn't really wowed me because he keeps pulling his punches and nothing Sam or Dean do is actually all that monstrous in the grand scheme of things. And his version of brotherly angst is simply petty little jerks, IMO.

I suspect Sam will have no supernatualness to him, but will probably do something more akin to Dean selling his soul back in S2. I'm guessing he makes a bad deal or heads down a bad road or simply goes off the rails--like he did in Mystery Spot--but I suspect it won't result in him having some power or something. Personally, I could care less if its supernatural or not, I'm just enjoying Sam being more Sam-like than he's been in years. Now, if we could just get Dean back to being more Dean-like, I'd be in a very happy place.

even with some strange inconsistencies in Jensen's portrayal in the most recent episode and the occasional dumbing down of Dean(q d Sam at times) for Plot reasons he's still Dean. I felt like that about demon blood Sam. Even if he was doing bizarre things that I didn't like it still felt like it was Sam.. Unlike in s8. maybe those inconsistencies were intentional by Jensen to show how messed up Dean is but he still seems like Dean.

DittyDotDot · January 31, 2015

I think you might be taking my comments too literal, catrox. It's just a general feeling I've had since Carver took over. Dean seems to have lost most of his well-honed instincts and seems far more grudge-holding, vengeance-driven and just generally more angry than I felt Dean was in the past. I've felt the same way about Sam since Carver took over too, but Sam's characterizations have always been all over the map, so I just went with it. It's been better for Sam this season though, IMO.

Its the fallout of Dean driving the myth arc, IMO.This show tends to think of an idea to explore then tries to adapt their characters to that idea rather than adapting the idea to the characters they already have. So, I haven't found Dean losing himself to his rage all that organic to Dean. Even if I can find reasonable reasons why he would have a lot of rage, he's never been shown to be all that rage filled in the past. It's the same thing they did with Sam in S4-S6 and I also think this is why Sam's characterizations have been all over the place previously. Also one of the many reasons why I never pined for Dean to be put in the same position as Sam--I've always liked Dean for who he is and never wished to see him pushed into being a different person to make a plot work.

catrox14 · January 31, 2015

Ah I see what you mean now.

I think Dean has never been ragey person either or that he has ALL the lingering anger and resentment that the mark is latching onto. which is why I have trouble with how they are framing Deans actions with the MoC induced bloodlust as being something Dean should/must be able to control. To me It's like telling someone who is literally currently putting a needle full of heroin in their arm to stop behaving in whatever way the drug is making them behave. The MoC is like a permanent IV drip of heroin. Dean can't just take the needle out of his arm and never shoot up again. I don't want it to be something that Dean has to live with for a thousand years and every time he can't control the bloodlust he is failing or if he controls itneverytime that would be Super! Dean.

I need to know once and for all if Dean is mortally wounded again will he die or become a demon again.? Why the hell aren't they asking that question of Crowley? Why isn't Dean asking that question? IMO that is the single most important thing that has to be addressed in the back half of the season.

Edited January 31, 2015 by catrox14

rue721 · January 31, 2015

The idea that Dean can just ~control~ this supernatural demonic force that is poisoning his body is ridiculous imo. How can he control it, it's not *him.* It's something that's being done to his body that's literally destroying/poisoning him. I mean literally it was making him cough up blood and killing him previously.

What's going on with *that* btw? Either he's not physically human right now and that's why the Mark is no longer killing him by basically liquifying him from the inside out, or he's physically human and...uh. About to be liquified from the inside out again?

IA that I wish they would actually answer some questions about the mythology of the Mark because I'm not even actually understanding what the threat/stakes are at this point.

But I also disagree that it's making him angrier or that controlling it has anything to do with controlling his own anger. Imo it's making him more sadistic and bloodthirsty. But YMMV.

AwesomO4000 · January 31, 2015

I`m talking JUST supporting and emo and not having also something supernatural about himself: no visions, no Boyking, no demon blood powers, no Lucifer hellucinations, no soullessness/wall in your head, no angel-dom, nothing. A character that has no longterm supernatural arc (no matter how much it is onscreen or well it is executed, it is enough that it is there) in a Season. This is the first time in the entire show that this is true for Sam. For Dean it was true in Season 1,2,6 and 7. I`m gracious in counting the first two episodes Purgatory flashbacks here for Season 8 or that one would go into the mix.

So my point was did Carver mean they will not allow one Season of 22-23 episodes to go by without giving Sam a supernatural condition, not just for a one-off episode but as an arc? Or was he talking about just emo?

For me, this seems a little bit restrictive of a definition, because this is generally one of Sam's character traits - supernatural stuff happens to him. It's one of the few character things Sam has as a character. I also don't think season 7 counts in your above example, but that's beside the point. My point is there are many ways of looking at things. I could do something similar by trying to point to a season where only Sam has a major kill (i.e. a multiple episode baddie) - there isn't one except arguably season 4 if you don't count Dean killing Ruby, whereas for Dean there is season 2, 6*, 7, and 9, and maybe 1 if you count the demon who was Azazel's son, but I admit that's iffy.

I don't care if Sam has nothing but a support role and no supernatural plot, but I kind of wish he would get at least one something of significance even if he just helps. In all but one of the above seasons you mentioned as Dean having the "support" role (season 1), he got to make at least one major kill contribution either by himself or without Sam, and in two of those, it was the season or multiple season baddie. There's a difference, in my opinion, between having the support role in the arc - which is fine with me if Sam has that - and having almost no role at all. If Sam spends the entire season on the sideline while Dean has all the supernatural plot and gets the only major kills, that would be the only time in the show that that has happened. I'd like Sam to at least get a Zachariah-type kill or make some sort of contribution, and I don't think that is too much to ask for. I don't think it's going to happen, but at least his character isn't being trashed this season and he's actually acting like Sam, so I guess I should just be happy with that.

* Unless you count Grampa Samuel - which is somewhat debatable.

Pete Martell · February 1, 2015

You know why S7 is the best post-S5 season for me? The Leviathan. They were different.

They should have been, but I was baffled at just how similar I felt it all ended up being to the world's most lethargic apocalypse in season 5. Dean and Sam are at odds but have to work together - check. Shock value deaths to demoralize but ultimately strengthen Dean and Sam - check. Dick Roman in Zachariah's old "corporations are bad!" role - check. Seemingly big threat that mostly just plots offcamera so Dean and Sam can have MOTW episodes - check. Endless "dick" comments to show us how edgy the brothers are - check.

For me the main time in recent years that I thought things might be different was when season 8 introduced or reinforced some new recurring characters who had voices and identities of their own, like Benny and Kevin. I thought, for a minute, that maybe things were changing.

Unfortunately, the show's reaction to the backlash over the horrific writing for Sam just meant even more of the same - isolation, repetition, misery.

I think they've cut way back on the brother angst and brother wars this season, which I appreciate. And I have overall appreciated Dean's story. The rest...I'm just sort of checked out of any expectations or hopes.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Pete Martell

shang yiet · February 2, 2015

There's a difference, in my opinion, between having the support role in the arc - which is fine with me if Sam has that - and having almost no role at all.

Big difference. Even when Dean had this support role, he was the emotional focus, he was active, he was everywhere, he had his own part in the mytharc even when it 'belonged' to Sam. But right now, Sam doesn;'t have much of a role. The emo he can't have because Dean is still hogging it.

catrox14 · February 2, 2015

I guess I don't have problems with Sam not being all emo like Dean because Sam has not really ever been a particularly emotional guy all the time. I think a lot of the emo-Dean stuff is simply because Jensen does that shit like nobody's business. So they write to that strength now and if the writers are writing to Jared's strengths more now, perhaps no angst is okay since personally I don't think angst is one of Jared's strong suits. He does pretty much everything else great. What has helped is that now we are hearing and seeing that Sam is actively concerned and trying to help Dean even if he's not being so great at it, you know like leaving Dean alone with 5 killers or letting Dean go off with Bad!Charlie but at least he's doing some research now!

Anyway, I fully expect that there will be a big shift over the next couple of episodes to the focus being on Sam trying to find a cure for Dean and what lengths he'll go to do it. Since we saw him torturing demons and doing things like getting Lester to do his dirty work, he'll do something even worse than that to help Dean. So we'll get plenty of Sam stuff in the back half IMO.

Heh and if pattern holds true, Dean will probably end up having to save Sam from himself. I really hope not though.

YOu know that clip from ABout a boy that has Dean saying "I"m back, Baby" could he lose the Mark altogether as young Dean? I mean he seemed awfully excited about being back and maybe it is just about him

Edited February 2, 2015 by catrox14

SueB · February 3, 2015

No way the MoC is gone before the Cain ep IMO.

catrox14 · February 3, 2015

From the article in the media thread.

I did love Demon Dean, and I would have loved to stretch that out longer, but to be honest, we don't know that he's entirely not a demon anymore. I think that question mark is still somewhere hanging out there. [but] when he came out of Purgatory, and he's like, "This is where I belong: driving down crazy street with my brother by my side," I think those are the moments that he is the happiest. Sure, it's a long road, and he knows there's going to be all kinds of evil that he's going to be up against, but that's where he thrives, and that's where he belongs, and he knows that now.

Oh Jensen, you tease. LOL

catrox14 · February 3, 2015

BTS photos of Jensen taken recently. Look at the shirts. It's the same shirt combo Demon!Dean wore that I can't remember seeing since Soul Survivor....just.....sayin.....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/49347467@N05/16403012236/in/photostream/

ETA NEVER MIND he wore that shirt in the Charlie episode. Sigh. Can you tell I'm feverishly searching for a sign that Demon!Dean is on his way back? I'm pathetic.

Edited February 3, 2015 by catrox14

SueB · February 4, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgUIEP8KvDA

Halt and Catch Fire preview. NGL, I'm struggling to feel the love for this one.

Pete Martell · February 4, 2015

It looks like a TV episode from 20 years ago.

rue721 · February 4, 2015

Maybe it's just a tarted up PSA against texting and driving

catrox14 · February 4, 2015

Man, I was totally expecting a preview of the Cain episode....I am disappoint.

DittyDotDot · February 4, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgUIEP8KvDA

Halt and Catch Fire preview. NGL, I'm struggling to feel the love for this one.

Do we know who wrote it? I'm suspecting its Charmelo/Snyder, which would mean it's probably a mixed bag. I'm interested in the concept, but not sure if they will bring it home in the end. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

SueB · February 5, 2015

Misha's in the episode currently filming and he's wearing the tie!

https://twitter.com/mishacollins/status/563162854321188864

That's not the topic of the video, it's just that they just posted it and ..deductive reasoning and all.

The answer per SuperWiki is 70 aired.

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