Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

Oh I have no doubt Executioner's Song is going to be about Dean executing Cain...which ....I really don't want to happen until Cain tells him more about the origins of the Mark to help Dean get rid of it. 

 

Badham directed "First Born" so to me that is a great sign for action.  I am looking forward to that episode more than any other right now. I just love the dynamic between Dean and Cain.

[DittyDotDot]

Badham is a former stunt man, so he generally lands the action better than some of the others. Or, I should say, he generally finds a creative angle on the action.

 

ETA: Wait, wait, wait...I got my directors mixed up, I was thinking of Steve Boyum being a ex-stunt man. Sorry about that.  ::walks away grumbling about paying attention and getting things right before posting::

Edited January 6, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I loved First Born because of the Dean/Crowley dynamic in the episode and for the the fight Dean had with the demons. Jensen is just a remarkable action actor on top of all his other remarkable acting skills. . The only thing I didn't like was the swing around camera move in the first scene with Drunk!Dean at the bar when Crowley finds him.

[7kstar]

I really liked First Born even when I was screaming at Dean it's a stupid move.  Dean and Cain, the action scenes and Crowley and Dean were all well done.  I don't remember hating the bar scene so I'll have to watch it again when I have time. 

 

I'm not sure I remember Sam's part in this ep but I still wasn't liking Sam all that much and just remember I should want to take Sam's side on some of this...but I just don't.  So maybe it will be best to forget him for a bit.

 

I'm hopeful that when Cain shows up again the ep will not let me down.  Please Please.  I also hope that Sam continues in a direction that I like him and that he is watching Dean's back.  Dean's watched Sam through a lot of bad stuff, I think it's time Sam returns the favor a bit.  JMV.

[catrox14]

Oh don't get me wrong. I freaking LOVED the bar scene. I just didn't care for the whip around camera move when we first see Dean and he's checking out the waitress when Crowley sidles up next to him.  But even with the whip around camera move, I loved Dean's behavior. That was the first time I ever thought Dean was actually drunk and it was that very realistic quiet, silent depressing kind of drunk.  And there is something just sick about how much I love Dean's flicking around of his tongue in his mouth when he's considering Crowley's offer to hunt.  I loved the way Dean slides the journal away from Crowley to keep him from looking at it.

 

on topic: I wonder if maybe Dean can convince Cain to go after Crowley with him.  You know, before killing Cain..

Edited January 6, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

Thinking more about if they did the de-aging SL, maybe it would make more sense if it were actually kid!Dean (not an-adult-trapped-in-a-kid's-body), since wouldn't the purpose of a "de-aging" likely be to get him back to some sort of state-of-innocence as part of trying to get rid of the MoC? And also because Dylan Everett is an adult, so it's difficult to do a trapped-in-a-kid's-body story anyway? Personally, an actual kid!Dean seems like it would make for a more interesting story than yet another flashback anyway, since it would be interesting to see him with the present-day crew and present-day life. YMMV.

 

Halt and Catch Fire sounds like it has something to do with Hell, but beyond that...Maybe the original "iDie" title was referring to an actual death? And "Halt and Catch Fire" is referring to that person *in* Hell? It doesn't make sense to me that Dean would be first de-aged and then thrown into Hell the following episode, though he'd be the likeliest candidate otherwise. Well, if the story does turn out to be centered around Hell, I guess there's always Crowley who could carry the A-plot, he's supposedly in Hell relatively often (rme).

[DittyDotDot]

Halt and Catch Fire sounds like it has something to do with Hell, but beyond that...Maybe the original "iDie" title was referring to an actual death? And "Halt and Catch Fire" is referring to that person *in* Hell? It doesn't make sense to me that Dean would be first de-aged and then thrown into Hell the following episode, though he'd be the likeliest candidate otherwise. Well, if the story does turn out to be centered around Hell, I guess there's always Crowley who could carry the A-plot, he's supposedly in Hell relatively often (rme).

 

I wonder if its not an accumulation of Cass's fading grace storyline? "iDie" sounds like that to me, not sure what to think of the new title though.

[catrox14]

Here are my crack theories.

Since halt and catch fire r is a programming term and iDie seems to be a robotic term like iRobot, I think we could be looking at some kind of actual robot and it could have been foreshadowed/lampshaded in Fan Fiction with Marie having written a 2nd act with robots that we never actually saw.

What if at some point Crowley built a Dean mandroid and that is who has been chillin with Sam and demon! Dean is still out there or Crowley decides to pit current Dean against mandroid Dean? If don't think I actually believe this to be true but you just never know.

Or if it is about Cas dying maybe Dean is so distraught he tries to get Charlie to build a mandroid of Cas.

Or the boys decide to have Charlie build a doppelganger of Dean and Sam for shutting the gates of hell for reasons.

Edited January 7, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

You know, as crazy as all that sounds, catrox14, I've seen such things pulled off before. *

 

Of your scenarios, the last one seems most intriguing/probable to me, though I would more suspect that making them would be to throw Crowley off for some reason (Buffybot was briefly used similarly in the fight against Glory). I don't think Crowley would've been able to pull off a Dean/ Deanbot switch on Sam.

 

Now that you've mentioned this, you've given me ideas. It could maybe be though that somehow there is an android/machine intelligence that becomes Sam and Dean's enemy for a bit. Perhaps in the Supernatural-verse, "Oz" from Oz is an artificial intelligence now somehow, and Charlie somehow brings him/it to the current reality. If this artificial intelligence can "infect" or take over people somehow - or even worse "reproduce" itself by taking over others too (which that could potentially be one of the worst villains yet - yikes) - this could be a danger to any of them and they would likely have to find a way to "kill" it.

 

This somehow now makes me so want to see the artificial intelligence take over and have to deal with being inside Crowley, first dealing with figuring out how Crowley ticks and then in using him to become a dangerous enemy. Or if Crowley finds out, I could see him also wanting to manipulate this somehow to get Dean back - I could see him wanting a semi-controllable version of Dean to be his right hand man in hell and enforce/reinvigorate his reign.

 

 

* When Buffy the Vampire Slayer introduced the Buffybot, I thought it was going to be a silly one-off and potentially a big disaster (and for some viewers, I'm sure that it was). Instead, for me, Buffybot turned out to be an awesome and somehow complex-ish character in her own right who's presence actually made sense in terms of what was going on in the plot. Her presence in the lives of the other characters every day explained why they could never really heal and move on from Buffy's death, since the Buffybot was a constant reminder of her and what they had lost (Dawn, Willow, Xander) and/or their guilt and failure (Spike). In terms of the former group, I'm of the opinion that it contributed greatly to their questionable decision to bring Buffy back.

[SueB]

A mandroid! Wouldn't Ronald Resnick be proud.

[Demented Daisy]

No offense to anyone, but I think that would probably be the final nail in the coffin for me.

[DittyDotDot]

A mandroid! Wouldn't Ronald Resnick be proud.

 

Only if it had laser the laser eyes!

[catrox14]

Well, I do owe the term to Ronald Resnick (RIP)

[rue721]

Or if it is about Cas dying maybe Dean is so distraught he tries to get Charlie to build a mandroid of Cas.

 

Actually, this does sort of make me wonder about what Charlie brings back from Oz. I mean, they did have the Tin Man, and if Halt and Catch Fire is a programming term?

 

If Charlie constructs a mandroid can it please please please be Ronald's doppleganger. You know, an homage.

[catrox14]

Just for our general edification  from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire

 

"Halt and Catch Fire"  known by the assembly mnemonic HCF, refers to several computer machine code instructions that cause a computer's CPU to cease meaningful operation. The expression "catch fire" is intended as a joke; the CPU does not literally catch fire, but it does stop functioning. It is also occasionally referred to as "SDI" for "Self Destruct Immediate". 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

Oh shit maybe Charlie's the mandroid?

 

ETA:

 

Never mind, they're never going to get Felicia Day for more than one episode. Though I guess they could theoretically have had her film scenes for multiple episodes all in the same few days, they don't have to film in order or just for one episode at a time necessarily, I don't think?

 

Otherwise, the whole thing of Charlie coming back "different" or "bringing something back" from Oz, and her being a tech wiz***, would make her a pretty good mandroid suspect imo.

 

OK WILL STOP with the mandroid stuff (for now?) because it's making me want to rewatch Nightshifter, my favorite episode in the entire series (probably. I've got a few favorites, I guess), and I don't have time to right now.

 

***Pun 100% intended.

Edited January 7, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

More crack theories and I am actually going to commit to say the following will happen.

 

John has been mentioned a helluva a lot more this season than ever before. John Winchester will come back because Dean said in "The Things We Left Behind"  that John was always there when they needed him (canon be damned when John wasn't there! )JDM is going to be at Vegas Con. Jensen has mentioned several times that Dean really needs his dad right now

 

John is not in Hell and he's not been seen in Heaven...sooooooo maybe he landed in Oz somehow and comes back with Charlie..OR Dean is so desperate that he has Charlie build John's doppelganger.  

 

John Winchester is going to make an appearance ...book it.

I thought Felicia was scheduled for two episodes this season?

[rue721]

From your lips to TPTB's ear, catrox14.

 

I really want John to see Dean as a demon.

 

ETA:

 

I'm surprised to hear so many people say that John's been mentioned a lot more than usual lately, though? He came up fairly often in earlier seasons, as far as I remember, and when he did come up it was usually clear that he was on people's minds even when they weren't explicitly mentioning him (which makes sense to me, though YMMV).

 

Thinking about it a little more, I agree that this is the most frequently he's come up in the Carver years, but previous to S8, it was actually pretty frequent (imo) for him to be mentioned, or for Bobby to pretty explicitly be told he was standing in for John (for better or worse).

 

Maybe I just have a skewed perception of how much John gets mentioned because I have some inexplicable love of John, though. Don't even know what I like about him (aside from JDM looking eerily like my late uncle) but I just do.

 

ETA II:

 

OK, if Felicia Day is scheduled for more than one episode, my money is going on her being a mandroid.

Edited January 7, 2015 by rue721

[Pete Martell]

I haven't really noticed more John mentions than usual. There's been a change in tone, as Gamble only saw him as a deadbeat abuser and Carver is more...nuance, or incoherent, but that's the biggest change. And they increased starting in season 8, and especially last season. 

 

I also don't think it violates canon for Dean to say John was always there when they needed him. Dean rarely says anything else to people, especially to Sam. His own traumas about John are usually kept to himself.

[catrox14]

How many messages did Dean leave for John in s1 when John never responded when Dean absolutely needed him?  It took Dean essentially begging John for a call for John to show up in the Home episode and even then he hid himself from the boys. In the past Dean acknowledged that John was not there for them. I would say under Carver's run there is some slight retconning/reconfiguring of Dean's viewpoint about John.

[kimrey]

As far as I've heard there is only one Charlie episode this season.  At least no one has mentioned a second appearance this season.  I think someone got Claire and Charlie confused since Claire was confirmed to be in two episodes.

[SueB]

 

As far as I've heard there is only one Charlie episode this season.  At least no one has mentioned a second appearance this season.  I think someone got Claire and Charlie confused since Claire was confirmed to be in two episodes.

Actually it's both.  I was the one who confused Claire w/ Charlie in the back to back. BUT Robbie Thompson heavily implied another Charlie return during the 200th party media interviews.

[7kstar]

I haven't really noticed more John mentions than usual. There's been a change in tone, as Gamble only saw him as a deadbeat abuser and Carver is more...nuance, or incoherent, but that's the biggest change. And they increased starting in season 8, and especially last season. 

 

I also don't think it violates canon for Dean to say John was always there when they needed him. Dean rarely says anything else to people, especially to Sam. His own traumas about John are usually kept to himself.

I think Dean sees John showing up when he really needed help, like he shows up just in time to kill the monster to protect little Sammy, yes it give Dean the worst I told you so...but in Dean's eyes he did save Sam. 

 

Dean is the first to say he wasn't the father of the year, but in the Christmas ep, he saw the humor in the beer can wreath and that he did sometimes attempt to do some nice things for his kids. 

 

John can definitely be a SoB, but Dean always felt that he cared for his family and did the best he could. 

 

I also think Jensen's own feeling for the actor and his own father flavor some of his feelings.  Jensen always points out how his Dean's Dad is a good guy stuck in a bad situation. 

 

They have never addressed what happened to John or Mary.  So yes it would be a good thing if they wanted to use some version of John to help out.  I would prefer to see JDM, but there are other ways to bring John back if they can't get JDM.  I guess John's last scene before he died or sold his soul has weight for me.  He sees how he's made so many mistakes and he even says the things in a heart felt way of how proud he was of Dean. 

 

I know some feel the secret throws that all out, but I think Dean see it as a warning he had to give before it was too late.  Does he love his dad for it...NO...but I think he knows his Dad well enough to understand his motivation. 

 

I also think that there are some things Dean forgives his father for and knowing how Sam would react to his dad found ways to color it more positive.  Sometimes it is easier to believe something must be wrong with you if the people you love keep disappearing in your life, than to see the worst in the others.  But no matter how they slice it, I really hope that they include John this season in a way that is more uplifting...if that makes any sense.  JMV.

 

ETA:  Hopefully it makes more sense.

Edited January 8, 2015 by 7kstar

[rue721]

How many messages did Dean leave for John in s1 when John never responded when Dean absolutely needed him?  It took Dean essentially begging John for a call for John to show up in the Home episode and even then he hid himself from the boys. In the past Dean acknowledged that John was not there for them. I would say under Carver's run there is some slight retconning/reconfiguring of Dean's viewpoint about John.

 

It's baked-in to the premise of the show that John was always pretty difficult and flake-y, imo. Sam and John had been estranged for years by the pilot, and there was never a real explanation for why John barely spoke to either of his sons for the year or so before he died. John also seems like he was on bad terms with pretty much everyone else by that point, including his supposed closest friends (long-term), like Bobby and the Harvells.

 

Tbh all that just says "drinking problem" to me more than anything. But I'm so torn about how they handle drinking on this show. On the one hand, I think that in a lot of ways, Sam and Dean do actually act like people who are used to being around heavy drinkers/were raised by one. I actually like and appreciate that, especially because it's fairly low-key. (YMMV). But on the other hand, the drinking that's actually on the show is so ludicrously whitewashed. I don't need to see anyone piss the bed or whatever but I also get kind of frustrated how it barely has any physical consequences at all. Well anyway, not to digress.

 

To get back semi-on-topic, there *has* been a change in how the show portrays John, too, I think, but it's not so much an out-and-out retcon as it is a shift in tone and emphasis generally. There's maybe some handwaving necessary because of season-to-season choppiness, but I think what's changed the most is Dean's perspective on John. To me that change in perspective natural, though, because he's been grieving and how that feels changes over time (and imo he still seems like he's grieving). (On the other hand, imo Sam softened toward John while he grieved his death, and he's basically moved on by this point).

 

John wasn't literally there whenever they needed him, but on the other hand, I think Dean saw him as a protector and as the only person he could trust to make everything OK. John *did* do that, more or less -- even after he died, he came back to help kill the YED. So it makes sense imo that Dean would need him right now, because grown or not, he's terrified (and with good reason), and thinks he needs saving, and it makes sense that John would be the only person he'd genuinely believe would be able to do that. Sam lit into him last season about how he only trusts himself, he doesn't trust Sam enough -- that's been an issue between them previously, too. So anyway, I don't think it's ret-con-y, regardless that John had his problems/flaws. YMMV.

[SueB]

It may be as simple as "we survived it without Dad" (Faith, Shadow, and Home as examples) but when we were toast (AHBLpt2), he showed up. 

 

I'm really looking forward to "About a Boy" because I am interested in seeing what comes from this. I guess I'm expecting a John Winchester reference in this episode too. 

 

I do think, like many topics, the cast/writers/TPTB/crew are not 100% in synch. Just like no one in fandom is 100% in synch.  Subsequently, I think we get multiple visions creeping thru.

 

I guess I'm saying no single event/line of dialog/prop item/etc... is definitive because there are so many people involved in the collaborative development process that we have a somewhat unreliable narrator.  Or a multiple-personality narrator. 

[catrox14]

It's not just the Home episode that makes me question the comments from Dean.its just this overall shift in tone about John that feels a little retcon ish. I can buy Dean softening his position as he gets older and feels more needy because of reasons or if he wants fen es to be mended before Dean's life ends. I can see Dean defending John towards outsiders but I just found Dean's story from 10.9 to be not a great example of John being there. I would rather they have used him fighting his way out of hell in ahbl2 as the best example, but I understand they were using it to support Cas story more than I t being about Dean.

So I'm hoping that if and when John does make an appearance it doesn't destroy what went before. I hope Dean and John have a conversation about John as a father and that maybe Dean could say to him what demon Dean and s3 Dean said in his dream were both the same in that John obsession sort of ruined their lives and that John was never there. Yes it was a dream sequence but if we were to belive that Dean dreaming about Lisa was a regular thing and was truthful then Dean going off about John must have been mostly truthful. It will still likely come back to -"dad did his best" but as long as Dean gets some healing or at least peace about that relationship that does not come about through the show making Dean into an unreliable narrator about John I can live with that. I just don't understand why the show can't have John just be a terrible father and let the boys love him anyway. I think that is pretty common IRL.

[DittyDotDot]

I think Dean just chooses to remember the few times that John came through for them over the multitude of times he didn't. That's very Dean IMO. I think he sees the people he loves as slightly better versions of the reality of who they really are. I don't think he's naive or anything like that, but tends to appreciate the positive in people he cares for rather than dwelling on their faults.

 

I've been wondering if we're gonna get a Jeffery Dean Morgan appearance too. I don't think there's been more mentions of him this season than before, but I found it a little interesting that JDM hasn't been available to do anything for almost 9 years, but suddenly does a con in the UK and one here in the US. Maybe, he's just found some time on his hands, but made me wonder anyway.

[rue721]

I can go with the "unreliable narrator" idea for why Dean in particular says that John was always there, especially in public. But we've literally seen John not be there so many times that I can't buy it as the truth, even a mangled-by-disparate-writing-teams truth. Even when John showed up at the end of S1 and climbed out of Hell at the end of S2, it was as part of his mission to take out the YED. He never stepped in again, not when Sam died or Dean died or the world was ending. There are plenty of good things about John imo but that he was dependable was *never* one of them.

 

Personally, it does genuinely matter to me whether the show is trying to say that John actually was dependable or whether they're just trying to say that Dean is trying to *tell himself* that John was dependable, because imo dependability is a *huge deal.* Knowing that someone has your back is a *totally* different scenario than knowing that nobody does, and going in one direction rather than the other changes a lot about a character's perspective.

 

I think the CBGB story was some generic pap that they pulled out to fit the needs of other parts of the episode, so I basically disregard it and am just happy that Dean said he loved the man and it wasn't a sob story for once. Why in the world would John care if his son snuck out to go clubbing? THEY FOUGHT MONSTERS. I have to believe that Dean could have handled himself at a club ffs. Probably not good to cherry-pick but I have no idea how to fit it in with anything else we know about the characters.

 

Anyway, I don't actually want there to be a conversation between John and Dean about whether or not John was there. It just sounds too painful. Even if John somehow comes back, he'll still be himself, and what will change? I envision a conversation like that as John tearing Dean a new one to get him to drop the accusation, or maybe John pulling out some accusations against Dean to get him on the defensive, or John breaking down completely and acting pitiable in order to make it so Dean can't complain without feeling like a monster. Maybe the show wouldn't go in any of those directions, but they seem like the likeliest irl and envisioning them just makes me hate the idea. If there's going to be a conversation about dependability, I'd prefer it be between Sam and Dean, because they actually have tried to have each others' backs no matter what.

 

I just don't understand why the show can't have John just be a terrible father and let the boys love him anyway. I think that is pretty common IRL.

 

I think that's been the idea all along? That's what I've been figuring anyway.

[catrox14]

That is sort of my pint

I can go with the "unreliable narrator" idea for why Dean in particular says that John was always there, especially in public. But we've literally seen John not be there so many times that I can't buy it as the truth, even a mangled-by-disparate-writing-teams truth. Even when John showed up at the end of S1 and climbed out of Hell at the end of S2, it was as part of his mission to take out the YED. He never stepped in again, not when Sam died or Dean died or the world was ending. There are plenty of good things about John imo but that he was dependable was *never* one of them.

Personally, it does genuinely matter to me whether the show is trying to say that John actually was dependable or whether they're just trying to say that Dean is trying to *tell himself* that John was dependable, because imo dependability is a *huge deal.* Knowing that someone has your back is a *totally* different scenario than knowing that nobody does, and going in one direction rather than the other changes a lot about a character's perspective.

I think the CBGB story was some generic pap that they pulled out to fit the needs of other parts of the episode, so I basically disregard it and am just happy that Dean said he loved the man and it wasn't a sob story for once. Why in the world would John care if his son snuck out to go clubbing? THEY FOUGHT MONSTERS. I have to believe that Dean could have handled himself at a club ffs. Probably not good to cherry-pick but I have no idea how to fit it in with anything else we know about the characters.

Anyway, I don't actually want there to be a conversation between John and Dean about whether or not John was there. It just sounds too painful. Even if John somehow comes back, he'll still be himself, and what will change? I envision a conversation like that as John tearing Dean a new one to get him to drop the accusation, or maybe John pulling out some accusations against Dean to get him on the defensive, or John breaking down completely and acting pitiable in order to make it so Dean can't complain without feeling like a monster. Maybe the show wouldn't go in any of those directions, but they seem like the likeliest irl and envisioning them just makes me hate the idea. If there's going to be a conversation about dependability, I'd prefer it be between Sam and Dean, because they actually have tried to have each others' backs no matter what.

I think that's been the idea all along? That's what I've been figuring anyway.

That's how it has been but Dean and Sam had definite shifts I perspective of John since s8. Dean always loved John but the show was very much IMO acknowledging textually that Dean realized that John was not a good parent.

I I think Dean would benefit from some catharsis by confronting John about their lives beyond the one rant in s1. But that just MO

I agree that it matters significantly if the show is saying John was normally dependable but Dean and Sam got the wrong end of the stick about John. That would be a major retcon IMO.

Edited January 8, 2015 by catrox14

[7kstar]

One problem about John, is if they showed John being a great parent and had kept John alive...then it split the show's focus.  So they needed a reason to keep the boys separate from John.  When John gives up his life, it was to save Dean and possibility does exist that he knew Dean stood a better chance of saving Sam than he could.

 

One reason for me that John wasn't as awful as he could have been was how he realized that once he tried to protect Lisa and Ben from the monsters, he fell into John's patterns.  It gave him a new way of looking at his father.  Plus he honestly got along better than Sam. 

 

But the show has always had moments even with Sam and Dean starting in season 1 which made me wonder why the boys even stayed together.

 

So yes it would be nice to see John, if only to get some closure for the audience.  John will NEVER be the Best Dad ever, but even Sam saw he wasn't the WORST one ever either...this is season 1

 

So I think you can find lines that show a complex man, and I think Dean gets that.  He sees that he isn't the best role model but when he was four, his Dad did come through.  I can even see a love/hate relationship, but I think he saw something positive but recognized that his dad got tunnel vision and that could be deadly.  But he did hero worship him as a child.  there had to be enough positive reactions, that helped him look past all the mistakes.  That four year old that needed his Dad, still can't let go and say his dad is just awful.  I think they have been all over the place as they kept trying to figure out excuses for why John was absent.  Perhaps if JDM could have come more often on the show, his character wouldn't have been painted into such a dark corner.  But I would still love to see him come back at least one before the show ends.  This season seems possible fingers crossed.

 

Fighting a headache so hopefully this makes sense.  If not feel free to ignore.

[rue721]

Dean always loved John but the show was very much IMO acknowledging textually that Dean realized that John was not a good parent.

 

IA. There's always been a gap between how Dean talks about John and who John is, that's clear even in the pilot based on what Sam says about John and how he reacts to Dean asking to go after him imo. Dean has also always (imo) seemed at least as conscious as anyone of that gap. I don't think he buys his own hype as a general rule, and doesn't particularly about John, either. If anything, I think he would like to buy his own hype more than he does.

 

In terms of the show's tone toward John overall, what I dislike is the tendency toward heavy-handedness, and the flat-out clumsiness. What's strange is that I feel like the writers now don't really have a grasp on what *they* think John's personal strengths and weaknesses even are? Why would they push "dependability" as something good about John? I mean, ffs. The premise of the show is that he went missing! In that same vein, why would they have the flashback episode last season be all about Dean fucking up and John pointedly *not* giving him a helping hand even though it means he's in juvy (?) and/or a group home for months on end, but then when they mention John this season, he's suddenly become a suburban dad from 1980s TV, thinking that NYC is too dirty and clubbing is too dangerous?

 

Well, all I can really say is that would be great to have John back. Even if JDM turns out to still not be interested, I would almost prefer if it were somehow young!John, anyway, because it would be interesting watching his personality as a hunter form, imo. (Maybe *that* could be the de-aging rumor? How crazy would that be?). In any case, I've always disagreed that there's no room for a father in this sort of story. Maybe I'm incredibly old school (or even old world, lol), but parent/child relationships and obligations don't just disappear because you're grown, and it's strange to me that the show would feel like they "have" to pretend as though that's the case and boot out John. YMMV, of course.

[Pete Martell]

In terms of the show's tone toward John overall, what I dislike is the tendency toward heavy-handedness, and the flat-out clumsiness. What's strange is that I feel like the writers now don't really have a grasp on what *they* think John's personal strengths and weaknesses even are? Why would they push "dependability" as something good about John? I mean, ffs. The premise of the show is that he went missing! In that same vein, why would they have the flashback episode last season be all about Dean fucking up and John pointedly *not* giving him a helping hand even though it means he's in juvy (?) and/or a group home for months on end, but then when they mention John this season, he's suddenly become a suburban dad from 1980s TV, thinking that NYC is too dirty and clubbing is too dangerous?

 

I'm not sure if John looking down on NYC and thinking clubbing is dangerous makes him a suburban dad. The other John reference this season had Demon Dean saying John brainwashed him and conditioned him. Each writer likely has their own view of John, but the prevailing view seems to be that John was there in the moments that prevented one of the boys from being killed (or in this case, raped and/or killed), but he was cold and distant and did real psychological damage to his sons (although in recent seasons that focus is more on Dean than on Sam). 

[DittyDotDot]

Pete Martell, on 09 Jan 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

I'm not sure if John looking down on NYC and thinking clubbing is dangerous makes him a suburban dad. The other John reference this season had Demon Dean saying John brainwashed him and conditioned him. Each writer likely has their own view of John, but the prevailing view seems to be that John was there in the moments that prevented one of the boys from being killed (or in this case, raped and/or killed), but he was cold and distant and did real psychological damage to his sons (although in recent seasons that focus is more on Dean than on Sam). 

 

I think that's probably the biggest problem with most of the inconsistencies as of late--each writer seems to have their own take on character and mythology, so it doesn't feel like there's one consistent voice coming out of the show about much of anything. I think the early seasons had a more consistent idea of John being just a regular dad doing the best he knew at the time; even if his best wasn't always all that great. In general, I think this to be true of most parents and why I feel both Sam and Dean would love John even if he wasn't always a perfect father.

 

 

 

catrox14, on 07 Jan 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Since halt and catch fire r is a programming term and iDie seems to be a robotic term like iRobot, I think we could be looking at some kind of actual robot and it could have been foreshadowed/lampshaded in Fan Fiction with Marie having written a 2nd act with robots that we never actually saw.

 

I had wondered if they were trying to reference the show or the phrase itself, which I do realize are linked anyway. Either way, it makes me more certain that it's a Cass-central storyline. My re-watching of S8 reminded me of how the show was kinda saying angels were basically computers in S8--Crowley torturing Samandriel was getting at their base code, Namoi was reprogramming the angels and grace equating batteries/power source. So, I'm wondering if they're gonna either get Cass's real grace back or they kill Cass altogether. It really feels like they might be saying goodbye to Cass this season. Which would also tie to the "worst idea ever" involving Marvatron.

Edited January 9, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Pete Martell]

I think that's probably the biggest problem with most of the inconsistencies as of late--each writer seems to have their own take on character and mythology, so it doesn't feel like there's one consistent voice coming out of the show about much of anything. I think the early seasons had a more consistent idea of John being just a regular dad doing the best he knew at the time; even if his best wasn't always all that great. In general, I think this to be true of most parents and why I feel both Sam and Dean would love John even if he wasn't always a perfect father.

 

I think the real inconsistency started after he was dead. That's when the POV became that of John being abusive and a failure of a father, to the point where many fans believe he beat Dean. The only time we saw a sympathetic portrayal of him was the somewhat unbelievable Matt Cohen version, who was an angelic sweetiepie who hadn't yet become ruined by Mary's murder. This just got pushed even further when Kripke, then Gamble, fell in love with the idea of Bobby being a "real" father to Sam and Dean (even though Bobby had barely been there when they were kids and was abusive to them when they were adults, Dean in particular). By the time season 8 rolled around he was barely an afterthought, which meant the show didn't really have much to go on when they wanted to bring in Henry and the MoL.

[AwesomO4000]

This just got pushed even further when Kripke, then Gamble, fell in love with the idea of Bobby being a "real" father to Sam and Dean (even though Bobby had barely been there when they were kids and was abusive to them when they were adults, Dean in particular)

 

All that follows here should be preceded with "My opinion," so as to save me from repeating and/or in case I forget somewhere.

 

I disagree with the fact that Bobby was "abusive," or if what he said to Dean was considered abusive, then that was pretty much in tune with the types of things that John said to Sam and Dean so, to me, "father figure" still applies. In general, John's words were usually worse or more hurtful, it's just that the ones we saw - it's implied that there were others - were more often towards Sam. The "it's your fault Dean's dying" conversation comes to mind, but Dean got it too with the uncalled for "take care of the damn car" stuff. However, unlike with John, Sam and Dean could call Bobby almost anytime, and he would answer and be there for them. He'd drop everything to come rushing to help (such as in "Tall Tales") or would go through sometimes great effort to research things for them while they were out in the field. Sam and Dean came to depend on him for that, making their relationship - to me - very much like father and sons.

 

Did Bobby screw up sometimes and/or give bad advice or messages? Yup, but so do most fathers and so assuredly did John. John just happened to also be much more questionably reliable support-wise to in addition to that, and his praise and support - to me - were very much more situational and/or dependent on whether his sons were "falling in line." For example, later in the series when they got close again, I just can't imagine Dean lying there dying in the hospital, Sam calling him, and Bobby not coming like John didn't in "Faith." And because of that, I can see Bobby as a better father-figure in the boys' later life than John had been by the time we saw him in the series.

[Pete Martell]

Did Bobby screw up sometimes and/or give bad advice or messages? Yup, but so do most fathers and so assuredly did John. John just happened to also be much more questionably reliable support-wise to in addition to that, and his praise and support - to me - were very much more situational and/or dependent on whether his sons were "falling in line." For example, later in the series when they got close again, I just can't imagine Dean lying there dying in the hospital, Sam calling him, and Bobby not coming like John didn't in "Faith." And because of that, I can see Bobby as a better father-figure in the boys' later life than John had been by the time we saw him in the series.

 

I don't disagree that John was also abusive. My point wasn't John > Bobby so much as why I think Kripke and Gamble peddling Bobby > John was a bad idea that made a hash of the backstory of Sam and Dean. Including happy little stories like how Bobby took a young Sam and Dean deer hunting (I have serious doubts that John would have let a young Sam go hunting with someone he clearly had limited trust in), or how Bobby threw a ball with Dean had little to do with Dean or Sam and mostly seemed to be about some need to show us how great Bobby had been so we'd care more when he died and we'd feel more of a loss. It just did the opposite for me, because I remembered him for his behavior when they were grown men, not retconned happy childhood memories. 

 

Dean expected a certain attitude from John. He'd been conditioned to it. That doesn't make it better, but that's how it was. Bobby was supposed to be, according to fanon and sometimes canon, a better father than John. So that means expectations were higher. So when Bobby told Dean "you're not a person," or told him "suck it up, princess," or told him that family was supposed to make him miserable, so just get over it, that cut even deeper, because this was supposed to be the guy who inherited John's messes. 

 

Then there was Bobby taking a powder after Dean "died" and Sam went off the radar (at the time when Sam most needed support), or Bobby keeping quiet for a year about Sam being back from the dead, to "protect" Dean (which hurt absolutely everyone involved and helped lead to the deaths of at least one innocent person, and likely far more).

 

Bobby cared to a point, and he was there for Dean and Sam sometimes, but he was an incredibly damaged person who put all of his issues onto both of them, to their detriment. And he didn't have the complex, dramatic history with them, or in general, that John had, so that's why I think focusing on him and delegating John to the abusive blip who occasionally popped up amidst Bobby + kids retcons was a writing mistake. 

 

I will admit a lot of my complaint is with fanon more than the show. One of my biggest complaints is with people who think Dean Smith is who Dean would have been in an ideal world, because he had Bobby and Ellen as parents. Dean Smith was a false construct built on manipulation and on the terror Dean felt from decades of torture. He wasn't a "happy" or "true" Dean just because he wore suits and ate salad.

[catrox14]

I didn't think it was because Ellen and Bobby were his parents but more that he seemed to be happy and content with his life. To me it was Dean without the baggage and trauma. He could have been doing anything for a living but Zach needed it be as far away from Dean's life as possible since it wasn't an AU, it was really the boys in a real case without their memories of hunting. They could have still been the spawn of John and Mary IMO.

I think if hunting hadn't taken so much from him he could have remained happy as a hunter.

I just hope that whatever they are doing with Dean gives him some peace and some action.

Edited January 10, 2015 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

To me Dean Smith was a very frightened man, always on the edge of a breakdown, but I guess this is the wrong thread. 

[AwesomO4000]

Including happy little stories like how Bobby took a young Sam and Dean deer hunting (I have serious doubts that John would have let a young Sam go hunting with someone he clearly had limited trust in), or how Bobby threw a ball with Dean had little to do with Dean or Sam and mostly seemed to be about some need to show us how great Bobby had been so we'd care more when he died and we'd feel more of a loss. It just did the opposite for me, because I remembered him for his behavior when they were grown men, not retconned happy childhood memories.

 

I can see your points here, but I was pretty used to that kind of thing from this show by this point, so that was fairly minor for me in comparison. It didn't change too much for me, because I could easily weave it in without any destruction of any of the major characters. For me the kind of pile on the angst to make the story more tragic that they did in season 4 was way more destructive than playing up Bobby a little bit, but I understand that miles do vary.

 

As for the hunting thing, I don't remember, was it said that John didn't trust Bobby? I thought it was Bobby who'd gotten pissed at John for some reason. And even if John said he didn't trust Bobby, I'd have to look at that with a grain of salt as to maybe it was pissed off sour grapes, since Bobby was the one who got pissed at John first. I wouldn't know enough there to say for sure. Besides John gave Sam a gun with no real explanation when he was 9 (I think - that wasn't clear from the story if he just gave it or gave explanation), maybe expecting Dean to show him how to use it. So if Dean was there at Bobby's, too, John might've thought that hunting - like archery practice - would be good for Sam, and teach him some hunting skills. Also it kind of makes me happy that Sam and Dean might've had a few more happy moments in their childhood. They had a crappy enough childhood that an extra happy memory or two isn't going to change canon much for me.

 

Bobby was supposed to be, according to fanon and sometimes canon, a better father than John. So that means expectations were higher. So when Bobby told Dean "you're not a person," or told him "suck it up, princess," or told him that family was supposed to make him miserable, so just get over it, that cut even deeper, because this was supposed to be the guy who inherited John's messes.

 

I tended to cut Bobby a little slack here, because as Dean told Bobby later in a similar situation, Bobby wasn't really their father, and Bobby had a lot more to consider than just Dean in that situation. There was a major world-affecting situation going on, and it wasn't just Dean Bobby'd been willing to compromise for the cause. Earlier, Bobby had been willing to consider using Sam as a nuclear weapon in the "war." This wasn't just simply a situation with Bobby trying to referee a Sam and Dean spat - this was much bigger, and if Bobby couldn't get Dean back into the game, there were other repercussions. So, he snapped a bit under the pressure, gave bad advice, and yelled at Dean. I gave Bobby a little slack - as I did for the Sam as a weapon thing - for "exception for coming apocalypse" reasons. John didn't get the same pass for me when he didn't come to see Dean when Dean was dying because John is Dean's father and there weren't any world-shaking reasons for not going to see Dean that we know of, mostly just John's need for revenge. I'd probably be more annoyed with Bobby's little "yay Bobby" bump if John wasn't already pretty well on the top of my shit list after his ditching of dying Dean. There really wasn't much that would make him look worse by that point.

 

Then there was Bobby taking a powder after Dean "died" and Sam went off the radar (at the time when Sam most needed support), or Bobby keeping quiet for a year about Sam being back from the dead, to "protect" Dean (which hurt absolutely everyone involved and helped lead to the deaths of at least one innocent person, and likely far more).

 

The first was pretty much in character based on what we got later. Bobby took a powder, because he was devastated about Dean's death and had started drinking. It was shown that Bobby wasn't as close to Sam as Dean, so his not being there for Sam in the face of his loss of Dean wasn't really a surprise for me. I thought that it was in canon. The second is a little more problematical if not for the first... Because Bobby didn't take losing Dean well, in some ways I can see him not telling Dean about Sam, because as Bobby said Dean was "out" - meaning he was relatively safe compared to if he went back to hunting with Sam - who Bobby likely suspected was "off" but not enough to worry him (Bobby canonically doesn't know Sam as well) into poking that bear. If Bobby saw Sam hunting with the Campbells as risky, it might have been sort of a selfish reason not to tell Dean who might again hunt with a reckless and/or changed Sam and again be at risk. Both things are probable to me based on the Dean is Bobby's favorite and his welfare is more of a concern to Bobby than Sam canon of the show. again though I understand that opinions vary on that, too.

 

I will admit a lot of my complaint is with fanon more than the show. One of my biggest complaints is with people who think Dean Smith is who Dean would have been in an ideal world, because he had Bobby and Ellen as parents.

 

I've not come across that and am glad I haven't, because, yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either, so I agree with you there. I tend to see it more as catrox14 does... that Dean Smith is Dean without the trauma and baggage. Having Bobby as a parent would have little to do with it... and I think we kind of saw that with Dean's dreamworld in "What Is..." Dean in his dream world was also relatively normal in Dean's mind... meaning that without the trauma and if his mother hadn't died, Dean himself thought that his life would've been relatively normal and that was with John as his father.

[SueB]

Speaking of correct thread.... shall we continue in Daddy Dearest?

[rue721]

Don't really know where to put this, because it's just crack!speculation or a "what if?!" scenario, but I was thinking:  since Mary became a spirit after she died, wouldn't she be in Purgatory right now? Wouldn't it have been fun if she'd been paired up with Dean in Purgatory, instead of Benny? My favorite Purgatory pair-up would still have been Dean and Henriksen, but there are so many possibilities. Still so sad they just made up a totally new character.

 

If the show had been really eager to bring in female characters, I think that between S7 and S8, Sam could have been trying to resurrect Dean and somehow gotten Jessica back instead, and meanwhile, Dean could have found dead!spirit!Mary* in Purgatory and brought her back with him.

 

Obviously it didn't happen, and Adrianne Palicki probably wouldn't have been available anyway. Like I said, total crack!spec. I guess I just want the show to go all the way to "COMPLETELY BATSHIT!" instead of pulling its punches the way it does. If the show was going to make the conflict be between the urge to build a new life/family v. loyalty to the old life/family, then I wish they'd just had Jessica on the one "side" and Mary on the other "side." Why bring in Benny or Amelia like those are characters anyone is going to be invested in (though I know that people were invested in Benny, ultimately, but I don't get it -- YMMV).

 

I'm probably thinking about this because I rewatched Swan Song last night and was so annoyed all over again, that they tried to make the final climax a big Brother v. Brother!!! showdown, but instead of having it between Sam and Dean, it was between Sam and...Adam. Nobody gives a fuck about Adam, not even Sam and Dean! Le sigh. Such a waste.

 

*They could have used the actress who played Young!Mary -- I'd like her on the show mostly because I loved her as Cupid on Arrow and thought Young!Mary was a pretty interesting character anyway. She was so tense, and so pugilistic despite herself.

[catrox14]

I think only monsters go to Purgatory and I don't think ghost!Mary would count. Henriksen wouldn't be there because he died as a human.

[DittyDotDot]

I really wanted to see Gordon in Purgatory. And, I always thought if they wanted to give Sam a girl and normalish life, JodI would've been a better option than what became Amelia. Ah, well, it was not to be.

 

I've have been watching Space: Above and Beyond and they did an episode where one character was all alone on an enemy planet; running, hiding and fighting. There's hardly any dialogue in the whole episode except for a couple short flashbacks that are mostly dialogueless too. Its really kind of a beautiful episode and got me to thinking how they wasted Jensen in Purgatory by feeling the need to team him up with someone right away. The first episode back could've been following Dean on his own and inner cutting to Sam trying to figure out what his next move should be. I think they worry too much that the audience would be bored without dialogue, but I think they underestimate us too often.

[oliverwendell]

 

Oh I have no doubt Executioner's Song is going to be about Dean executing Cain...which ....I really don't want to happen until Cain tells him more about the origins of the Mark to help Dean get rid of it.

 

Pulling this from farther up the page:  I've been wondering if maybe killing Cain is what Dean has to do to get rid of the Mark.  Kill the original holder of the Mark, and the Mark dies, too, perhaps?

[rue721]

I think only monsters go to Purgatory and I don't think ghost!Mary would count. Henriksen wouldn't be there because he died as a human.

 

Henriksen came back as a spirit-thing when Meg and those twins also came back, I think? But it's true, I don't know if spirits count as "supernatural" anyway, for the purposes of going to Purgatory. Maybe not. So is Mary in Hell now, or what? I know the show is probably not ever going to address it, I just find it weird that her fridging was the impetus for the whole hunting thing in the first place, but even though lifetimes were spent getting revenge on YED, nobody has done anything for her, herself? Except weirdo Grampa Campbell, but he doesn't count, the show obviously had no idea where they were going with him. (What *was* that Grampa Campbell storyline about, actually? I mean, thematically?).

 

If Sam had stayed dead after Jake killed him, when he was having visions and was a Psychic Kid, would he have gone to Purgatory, do you think? Where did the other Psychic Kids go when they died? Would have been fun for Dean to have found Jake in Purgatory, too.

 

Or hell, Gordon would have been great! And he's *got* to be there. THERE ARE SO MANY POSSIBILITIES. But none of them were used?

 

I've have been watching Space: Above and Beyond and they did an episode where one character was all alone on an enemy planet; running, hiding and fighting. There's hardly any dialogue in the whole episode except for a couple short flashbacks that are mostly dialogueless too. Its really kind of a beautiful episode and got me to thinking how they wasted Jensen in Purgatory by feeling the need to team him up with someone right away.

 

IA, I think *both* stories (Sam's and Dean's) would have worked better if they were on their own. Both actors can carry things on their own very well imo -- I really liked the S4 opener with Dean on his own coming back from the dead, and Mystery Spot with Sam going after the Trickster on his own.

 

I feel like the show is often really cautious in some ways. I think they don't want to have the guys separated for more than half an episode (at most), they're very careful about what they show Dean doing especially (why he wasn't Michael's vessel in the end and why him being a demon was so blah, imo)...I think the show actually has a lot more leeway than it thinks though. Do you think that caution is coming from producers'/network notes or from the writers themselves or what?

 

What I'm espcially curious about w/r/t next season is if JA and JP are going to be exec producers. (I mean in addition to the current EPs). Given that they're so involved, and that the show can't really go on without them signing on for each season, it seems unusual to me that they still don't have that credit and I would think they'd have been trying to negotiate it (with the show doing well on Netflix and all that, it must be *big* money to have a producer credit? Idk). And I wonder what kind of say they could have in the show or what kinds of changes either of them would want to make to the show, if they were to become EPs. Maybe nothing, for all I know. But I do feel that they know the show and their characters better than, say, Carver, so I'm curious about what direction(s) either of them would want to take things in if they had more creative control.

[DittyDotDot]

So is Mary in Hell now, or what? I know the show is probably not ever going to address it, I just find it weird that her fridging was the impetus for the whole hunting thing in the first place, but even though lifetimes were spent getting revenge on YED, nobody has done anything for her, herself?

 

Mary didn't sell her soul for John, her deal was giving Yellow Eyes permission to enter her house in 10 years. So I don't think her soul was Hell-bound in the first place. But Missouri said that Mary and the poltergeist's energy cancelled each other out, so I think she ceased to exist at that point. Kinda like when they burn a spirit's bones. So, I don't think Mary is in Heaven either, I think she's just gone.

[SueB]

I really want them to get EP credit at this point because I want the recognition of their creative control (that personally I think they ALREADY exercise for free). 

[catrox14]

Okay. I've been patient but I really need a new spoiler.

[SueB]

Pictures!

http://cwtvsource.com/2015/01/13/supernatural-10x10-promotional-photos-the-hunter-games/

 

Thoughts:

- It sure seems like they brought Metatron down without Cas' permission.  Cas standing by a blown-up dungeon door, NOT present at the interrogation, looking at post-tortured (Hi Dean!) Metatron, and his protective arm on post-tortured Metatron are all hints.

- So... did they bring Metatron for the Mark or to find Cas' grace. 

- Is this going to cause a rift with Cas....as if Dean going into slaughter-mode wasn't alarming enough for Cas?

- I feel like these are misleading.  The write-up talks about Claire and getting revenge.  I don't think this is part of that.  So... WTF promo folks.  Is this like the last 5 minutes of the episode ?...FAIL. 

 

In OTHER spoiler news:

- Cole is back (actor on twitter with the boys watching the game last night plus other tweets).  But it looks like they are filming the Cain episode right now.  So... PLEASE PLEASE tell me somehow Cole is not involved in the Cain thing.  Do. Not. Want. 

 

So... catrox14...are you SURE you wanted spoilers???

[catrox14]

Lol. I always want what will ruin me... Like more demon Dean. Oh Gods if they make Cole a part of Cains episode I will be a very unhappy camper.

Edited January 14, 2015 by catrox14